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1 '^A
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE
UNITED STATES
HEARINGS
BEFOKB ▲
SPECIAL
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-EIGHTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION , ^ Li A -s C
ON a^5S,H/\--
H. Res. 282 ^ ' ^
TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND
OBJECTS OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN
THE UNITED STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE 4
UNITED STATES OF SUBVERSIVE AND UN-AMERICAN PROP- /
AGANDA THAT IS INSTIGATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES
OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE
OF THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AS GUARANTEED BY
OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL OTHER QUESTIONS IN
RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID CONGRESS IN ANY
NECESSARY REMEDIAL LEGISLATION
VOLUME 15
JUNE 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, JULY 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 1943
Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN
PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN THE
UNITED STATES
HEARINGS
BEFORE A
SPECIAL
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-EIGHTH CONGEESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
H. Res. 282
TO INVESTIGATE (1) THE EXTENT, CHARACTER, AND
OBJECTS OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES IN
THE UNITED STATES, (2) THE DIFFUSION WITHIN THE
UNITED STATES OF SUBVERSIVE A^D UN-AMERICAN PROP-
AGANDA THAT IS INSTIGATED FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES
OR OF A DOMESTIC ORIGIN AND ATTACKS THE PRINCIPLE
OF THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT AS GUARANTEED BY
OUR CONSTITUTION, AND (3) ALL OTHER QUESTIONS IN
RELATION THERETO THAT WOULD AID CONGRESS IN ANY
NECESSARY REMEDIAL LEGISLATION
VOLUME 15
JUNE 8, -9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, JULY 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 1943
Printed for the use of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities
■ -• • • • " " -1 "
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
62626 WASUINGTON : 1943
dA^.
.. MAR 2 7 1944
SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES,
WASHINGTON, D. C.
MARTIN DIES, Texas, Chairman
JOE STARNES, Alabama NOAH M. MASON, niinois
WIRT COURTNEY, Tennessee J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey
JOHN M. COSTELLO, California . KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
HERMAN P. EBERHARTER, Pennsylvania
Robert E. Stripling, Chief Investigator '
J. B. MAtTHEWS, Director of Research
Jane Isbel'l, Editor
n
CONTENTS
Page
Abe, Paul Yozo 9391
B<arntv,. Arthur J 9187
Beerv, Ben S 1 9038
Best; P^ttrh A 9290
Bowron, Fletcher 8989, 9202
Brown, Thoburn K . 9325
Buzzell, J. W 9281
Cavett, Thomas - 9263, 9317
Cohn, Alfred A - 9209
Eidsath, S. Martin 9218
Elliott, Jesse L 1 9002
Empie, Augustus W 8921, 8954
Gelvin, Ralph M _• 8833, 8870
Hennebold, Alan -• . 9249
Hunter, Allan H 9255
James. Norris W 9071, 9101, 9137
Jennings, Irving A 9194
Jordan , Lon - 9184
Kanazawa, Emilie Augusta Aldridge 9433, 9453
Kanazawa. Joseph Tooru 9465
Latham, Frank C 9004
Masaoka, Mike 9493, 9539
Merer. Eldred L 9035
Mver, Dillon S - 9599, 9661, 9699
Odemar. Walter H :.__• " 9032
Orme. Lin B 9171
Page, Kirbv ■ 9226
Scoville, Harold R 9178
Slocum, Tokutaro Xishimura ---- 9413,9434,9538
Smi'ev, Glenn E 9259
Steedman, Jame-^ H 8998, 9367
Stringfellow, Ralph 9378
Taff. Cliidon J _• 9349
Ta.vlur, Gorman W 9244
Washum, Jim , 9372
Wickersham, Ernest C 9009
Wirin, A. L 9328,9357
ni
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIY
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
TUESDAY, JUNE 8, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee
To Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
The subcommittee met in room 1543, United States Post Office and
Courthouse, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. John M. Costello, chairman
of the subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, and Hon.
Herman P. Eberharter.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee,
acting counsel.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
For the purpose of the record, in order to verify the investigations
which have been undertaken by representatives of the Dies committee,
the committee has had some investigators in the field visiting the
various relocation centers at which the Japanese have been gathered,
and as a result of their investigations they found conditions which do
not seem to be very satisfactory, and we are endeavoring at the present
time to substantiate the evidence which they have uncovered in the
course of their investigations.
It is the purpose of the committee to call in the heads of some of the
camps and obtain their testimony regarding their conditions at those
camps and the method of operating the war relocation camps.
We have brought in today a witness from the camp at Poston,
Ariz., and I am going to ask Mr. Gelvin to stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in tliis
hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. Gelvin. I do.
TESTIMONY OF RALPH M. GELVIN, ASSISTANT PROJECT MANAGER,
COLORADO RIVER WAR RELOCATION PROJECT, POSTON, ARIZ.
Air. Costello. Will you give your full name to the reporter?
An-. Gelvix. Ralph M. Gelvin.
Mr. Costello. Air. Steedman, will you proceed with the ques-
tioning?
Air. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, since the subject of this hearing is
the Japanese war relocation centers, I should like to have marked as an
exhibit at this point, a copy of the Executive Order No. 9102, entitled:
''Establishing the War Relocation Authority in the Executive Office
of the President and Defining Its Functions and Duties."
8833
8834 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
This order was signed by the President on March 18, 1942.
Mr. CosTELLO. It will be so ordered and made a part of the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Committee Exhibit No. 1,"'
and received in evidence.)
Mr. Steedman. Also, Mr. Chainnan, this hearing will bring forth
some Japanese terms which I would like to explain before I start
examining the witness.
Mr. CosTELLO. Very well.
Mr. Steedman. The Japanese in the United States are divided
into four classes, namely, the Issei, Nisei, Kibei, and San Sai.
A Japanese living in the United States but born in Japan is known
as an Issei, which means first generation.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you spell those ternis?
Mr. Steedman. Issei is spelled I-s-s-e-i.
A Japanese born in the United States of parents born in Japan is
called a Nisei, which means second generation.
Nisei is spelled N-i-s-e-i.
A Japanese born and living in the United States but educated in
Japan is known as a Kibei — K-i-b-e-i.
A child of Nisei parents is called a San Sai, which means third
generation.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Gelvin, will you please give the reporter your
full name?
Mr. Gelvin. Ralph M. Gelvin.
Mr. Steedman. How do you spell your last name?
Mr. Gelvin. G-e-1-v-i-n.
Mr. Steedman. "What is your present address?
Mr. Gelvin. Poston, Ariz,
Mr. Steedman. Do you live inside the Poston relocation center?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr.. Steedman. Are you an American citizen?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir,
Mr. Steedman. Where were you born?
Mr. Gelvin. Louisiana, Mo.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. Gelvin. December 25, 1904.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever served in the armed forces of the
United States?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. .
Mr. Steedman. Will you please state briefly your education and
training?
Mr. Gelvin. How far back do you want that to go i
Mr. Steedman. I would like to know whether or not you went to
high school.
Mr. Mundt. Will you speak a httle louder, please.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. ..11,10
Mr. Steedman. I want to know how far you went through school.^
Mr Gelvin My first 2 years in high school were m St. Louis,
Mo., at the Soidan High School. My last 2 years were at a country
high school at Monument, Colo. , ^ „ , „ , 1 u-
I attended the Colorado Agricultural College for three and a half
years.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8835
Mr. Steedman. Did you graduate from the Colorado Agricultural
CoUegp?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you plrase give the committee an outline of
the most important positions you have held since your graduation
find since you began working?
Mr. Gelvin. After leaving college I worked for the State extension
service for 5 years.
Mr. Steedman. And for which State was that?
Mr. Gelvin. Colorado; dairy extension work.
I then went into the Indian Service in extension work — agricultural
extension agent was the title of the position.
Mr. Steedman. "When did you go with the Indian Service; what
vear?
Mr. Gelvin. 1939.
Mr. Steedman. ^Miat was 3-our title?
Mr. Gelvin. Agricultural extension agent.
3ilr. Steedman. And what was your salary?
Mr. Gelvin. $2,600 a year. I served as agricultural extension
agent imtil December 1940.
Mr. Steedman. And where did you perform those duties?
Mr. Gelvin. Hickory Apache Indian Reservation in New Mexico
for 6 years and Sells Indian Agency at Sells, Ariz., for a little less than
3 years.
I was then appointed as reservation superintendent of tlie Truxton
Canyon Indian Agency in northern Arizona.
In April— April 17, 1942, I was placed in my present position in the_
War Relocation project at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. And your last position with the Indian Service was
that of superintendent at TriLxton, is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. ^^^[lat was your salary there?
Mr. Gelvin. $3,500 per year.
Mr. Steedman. Did that include quarters and subsistence?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, no. It didn't include subsistence. A charge
was made for quarters. It was deducted from that salary.
Mr. Steedman. $3,500 was your full salary for a year?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that was the gross salary.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated you accepted a position as
assistant project manager at the wa relocation center at Poston in
April 1942, is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What are your duties and responsibilities at the
Poston Relocation Center?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, as assistant to Mr. Head, the project director,
I am responsible for assisting him in the management of the project.
That covers so many duties it would be hard to outline them.
Mr. Steedman. In short, you are the director of the project when
Mr. Head is away, is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Does all the administrative correspondence go
over your desk?
Mr. Gelvin. No, no; it does not.
8836 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Air. Steedman. Wliat part of the administrative correspondence
goe^ over your desk?
Mr. Gelvin. Well^ when Mr. Head is on the project very httle of it
goes over my desk. When he is away from the project most of it goes
over my desk.
May I further explain that hy stating that Mr. Empie, our chief
administrative officer, generahy sends out correspondence over his
own signature.
Mr. Steedman. What I am getting at is what your duties are when
Mr. Head is at the project?
Mr. Gelvin. (No answer.)
Mr. Steedman. What phase of the work do you carry on? Do
you administer anything?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, we do not have a direct hue of division in our
work — that is, Mr. Head and I, but in general I work more with the
appointed personnel — that is the Caucasian personnel, and the oper-
ations of the project such as development of land, the public-works
projects, while Mr. Head deals more with the Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have anything to do with employing the
people who are employed at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. In some cases I would approve employment, acting
on the recommendation of the branch chief who might be doing the
employing.
Mr. Steedman. Does the branch chief submit a requisition to you
for a certain type of person and then you submit that to the Civil
Service Commission?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; any application for employment is handled
through regular civil-service channels and I act on the recommenda-
tion, generally, of the branch chief.
Mr. Steedman. Are all the white personnel at Poston civil-service
employees?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I believe they are. I don't know of any excep-
tions.
Mr. Steedman. Let me see if I understand you. It is brought to
your attention that a man is needed in the agricultural department?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. IVIr. Mathieson, who is the head of the Agricul-
tural Department, advises you he needs a man, then do you request
the Civil Service Commission to furnish you with a man who has the
qualifications that Mr. Mathieson asks for?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I believe that is the general procedure of the
personnel officer who handles that. He asks for an eligible list.
Mr. Steedman. And that is under your general supervision?
Mr. Gelvin. That is under my general supervision; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Are you directly responsible for that?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I would be responsible under Mr. Head for that.
Mr. Steedman. At the present time you are responsible because
Mr. Head is not at the project?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Steedman. Wlien did Mr. Head go to Washington?
Mr. Gelvin. He has been gone about 3 weeks.
Mr. Steejman. Why did he go to Washington, do you know?
Mr. Get.vin. He went for a conference called bv the Director of the
W. R. A., Mr. Myers.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8837
Mr. Steedman. Do you know the purpose of that conference?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Did the order requiriiio; Mr. Head to go to Wash-
ington stale the purpose of the conference?
Mr. Gelvin. I didn't see the order.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether other heads of centers were
also called to Washington for this conference? Was this a general
conference or was just Mr. Head ordered to Washington?
Mr. Gelvin. It is my understanding that all of the project directors
were called.
Mr. Steedman. "VMiat is your present salary?
Mr. Gelvin. $5,600 a year.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Indian Service loan you to the W. R. A.?
■ Mr. Gelvin. I am still employed by the Indian Service.
Mr. Steedman. You are stiil employed by the Indian Service?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Are j^ou paid from Indian Service funds?
Mr. Gelvin. I am paid from funds that are transferred from the
War Helocation Authority to the Indian Service for this particular
project. Now, as to saymg if that is Indian Service funds, why, 1
would rather you would ask Mr. Empie that when he comes in, be-
cause he is the chief administrative officer and, of course, is much
more familiar with the details of the accountmg than I am.
— —
Mr. Steedman. Do you consider ^''ou are working for the War Re-
location Authority or are you working for the Indian Service?
Mr. Gelvin. We have a dual responsibility. We work under the
policies laid down by the War Relocation Authority but we still have
a responsibility to the Indian Service inasmuch as we are still Indian
Service employees in a technical sense of the word.
Mr. Steedman. Does your present position carry more responsi-
bility than the position you had as superintendent of the Indian
project at Truxton?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Is that the reason for the $2,100-a-year increase
in your salary?
Mr. Gelvin. I assume that is it.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Gelvin, is this $5,600 net or are your quarters
deducted from that?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I am charged for quarters.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever lived in the State of California?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I lived in the wState of Cahfornia w^hen I was
a boy for about 5 months.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the approximate date?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't.
Air. Steedman. You were quite young?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, it was a good man}^ years ago.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had any actual experience with the Jap-
anese people?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; not until I went to Poston.
Mr. Steedman. Have you made any study of the Japanese lan-
guage?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Or Japanese customs?
8838 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. I have tried to make a study in this way, attempting;
to learn as much about Japanese customs as I could from talking with
the Japanese people on the project.
Mr. Steedman. But prior to going to Poston j^ou knew nothing
about the Japanese people nor their customs?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In other words, the Japanese people and their
customs and activities were strange to you?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please describe the physical set-up of the
war relocation project or center at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. The project was originally built to accommodate
20,000 people. It is divided into 3 units— 3 camps.
Camp No. 1 was built to accommodate 10,000 people and the other
2 camps 5,000 people each.
It is built on what we term the "block system." In each block
there are 14 barracks and most of them are divided into 4 rooms.
That would m.ake 56 rooms which are the rooms that the evacuees
live in. In these blocks, in addition to the barracks, there are also
mess halls where all the people in that particular block eat.
There is a 20- by 100-foot building that is called a recreation hall
which is an open barracks — that is there are no partitions in it.
In the center of the block there is a men's latrine, a women's
latrine, a laundry room, and an ironing roo"'ii.
In camp No. 1 there are 36 of these blocks. In camps 2 and 3
there are 18 m each camp.
We get our water from deep wells which average around 220 feet
deep. In camp No. 1 we have four such wells and deliver a capacity
of about 800 gallons per minute each.
At the other two camps we have two in each camp.
Mr. Steedman. Who laid out the project?
Mr. Gelvin. I understand the United States Army engineers.
Mr. Steedman. Was the camp built under the jurisdiction and
control of the Army engineers?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was it built by contract?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Are the buildings of permanent construction?
Mr. Gelvin. I have had our construction man tell me they would
last approximately 4 years — possibly 5.
Mr. Steedman. You are referring now to the barracks or to all the
buildings?
Mr. Gelvin. All of the buildings.
Mr. Steedman. Does that include the administration buildings?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I am afraid it wouldn't. That is a little better
type of building.
Mr. Steedman. It is of more permanent construction?
Mr. Gelvin. I think so; yes.
Mr. Steedman. What was the cost of building the war relocation
center at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I have never been told the exact cost of the project.
Mr. Steedman. "V^Tio would have that information?
Mr. Gelvin. The United States Engineers.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACIIVITIES 8839
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much himber was used in build-
ing the project at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea.
Mr. Steedman. Was there any surplus lumber left when the
Army engineers finished building the project?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; but I couldn't tell you how much. There was
a little left that we purchased from them.
Mr. Steedman. What did you do with it?
Mr. Gelvin. We used it— let 7ne see a minute. There were some
features of the project which needled additional w^ork, such as shelving
in the warehouses, some of the warehouses; partitions in the adminis-
tration buildmgs, in the offices.
Mr. Steedman. Was any of this lumber destroyed by fire?
Islr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge.
]Mr. Steedman. Have you heard any of it was burned?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't a report in your files to the effect
that this lumber was burned, or any part of it?
Mr. Gelvin. I have never seen such a report; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Such a report has never come to your attention?
Mr. Gelvin. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Steedman. I say that has never come to your attention?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many of the buildings at Poston are air-con-
ditioned?
Mr. Gelvin. The administration buildings have desert coolers.
The personnel quarters have desert coolers. We purchased one
blower for each of the kitchens due to the terrific heat. We mounted
them right over the stoves so as to blow away a part of that heat.
Mr. Steedman. Do you laiow how much the air-conditioning equip-
ment at Poston cost the Government?
]Mr. Gelvin. I could not tell you the total cost; no, sir.
Air. Steedman. What is the present total population of Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. 15,916, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. That represents a deduction in numbers from the
high point, doesn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat was the maximmu number of people that
were located at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. 17,800. I believe was the maximum number.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please describe the administrative set-up
of the camp, and I have in mind thje Caucasian or white personnel?
Mr. Gelvin. We have the administration divided into what we call
branches. There is the engineering or public works branch, commu-
nity services branch — community services includes such thmgs as
health, education, family welfare — such things as that.
There is a branch of agriculture and industry headed by Mr.
Mulliieson.
The administrative branch is headed by Mr. Empie.
Mr. Steedman. WTio is m charge of food and the mess at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Snelson.
Mr. Steedman. What is Mr. Snelson's first name?
Mr. Gelvin. C. E. Snelson. That is in the administrative branch.
8840 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. What type of work was Mr. Snelson engaged in
prior to his employment at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. He was chief steward at one of the assembly centers
at Fresno, I believe — the Fresno assembly center.
Mr. Steedman. Japanese assembly center?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was that while the center at Fresno was mider the
control of the Army and being operated by the W. P. A.?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe that was operated by the W. C. C. A.
Mr. Steedman. Is there some discussion at the present time as to
whether or not it was operated by the W. P. A.?
Mr. Gelvin. I have heard no discussion of it.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the W. P. A. ever
operated the assembly centers?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. What does W. C. C. A. stand for?
Mr. Gelvin. Western Civilian Control Admmistration. I believe
that is correct.
Mr. Mundt. Was that a voluntary set-up or a California set-up, or
what was that?
Mr. Gelvin. That was a project — not a project but a division -set
up under the Western Defense Command for the handling of evacu-
ations.
Mr. Costello. Under direct Army supervision and control, was
it not?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. Control of the military authorities?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether it was military personnel or not.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, from the best information we can
obtain with reference to the evacuation of the Japanese, I think that
the Army ordered the Japanese out of the west coast area and the
Army had the job of moving the Japanese from this area. We under-
stand also that it was the Army's job to police the grounds enclosed
and the W, P. A. was given the job of internal management inside of
the reception centers such as Santa Anita and Fresno and the other
assembly centers throughout this area.
The W. R. A. took over from the War Department on April 17,
1942.
Returning to Mr. Snelson — did Mr. Snelson have any experience
with Japanese prior to his present position?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he did or not.
Mr. Steedman. Plad he ever lived in California?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, of course,* he lived in California at the time he
was with the Fresno assembly center. I couldn't say — I wouldn't
know what his past has been.
Mr. Steedman. Did you see his personnel papers when they came
over your desk?.
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I/did not.
Mr. SiEEDMAN. You did not see them?
Air. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of the educational department at
Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Dr. Miles Carey.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8841
Mr. Steedman. l^id you have anything to do with employing Dr.
Carey?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know where he came from to Poston?
Mr. Gelvix. Yes; he came from Honohihi.
^Ir. Steedman. Do you know why he came here from Honolulu?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I do not.
Mr. Steedman. Had he had previous experience with Japanese
there?
Mr. Gelvin. He was principal of the McKinley High School.
Mr. Steedman. He was employed due to the fact that he had been
in the islands and had experience with Japanese, isn't that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; and on his reputation as an educator.
Mr. MuNDT. Where did he get his Doctor's degree?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. sir. He is a Ph.D.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of medical, care at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Dr. Pressman.
Mr. Steedman. What are his initials; do you know?
Mr. Gelvin. Abraham.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know where he went to school?
Mr. Gelvin. No. sir; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Had he had any experience with the Japanese
prior to coming to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I think not. He was an Indian Service employee
transferred.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of relocation at Poston?
Mr: Gelvin. Explain that question a little further. Just what do
you mean by that?
Mr. Steeidman. I mean who is taking charge at the present time of
relocating evacuees in the middle west and on the east coast?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Giles Zimmerman .
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about Mr. Zimmerman's
background?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Zimmerman came to us from the American
Friends' Service Committee. I understand that he has had con-
siderable experience with what is termed — ^what is the term used for
people coming over from other countries?
Mr. Steedman. Do you mean refugees?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, refugees. WMe he was wdth this Service Com-
mittee he had experience, but as to whether he has any direct experi-
ence with Japanese, I couldn't say.
Mr. Steedman. Did you see his personnel papers when they came
over your desk?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And j^ou had nothing to do with selecting Mr.
Zimmerman?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir,
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Zimmerman is from St. Louis, isn't he?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't think so.
Mr. Steedman. You don't think he is?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he is or not; I coulchi't tell you.
Mr. Steedman. You don't know whether he went to Washington
University in St. Louis?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't.
8842 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Would his personnel record indicate that fact?
Air. Gelvin. Yes; I think it would.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of the personnel records at
Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. C. H. Smith.
Mr. Steedman. Had he been employed by the Indian Service prior
to going to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Smith?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
]Vlr. Steedman. Returning again to Mr. Zimmerman, you say he
was associated with the Friends' Service; is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the background of
the organization known as Friends' Service?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. It is a Quaker organization, is it not?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe it is.
Mr. Steedman. Is it a pacifist organization?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't say whether it is or not.
Mr. Steedman. Well, do you investigate the organizations which
operate inside of the center and who are in contact with the Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. The War Relocation Authority in Washington does
that.
Air. Steedman. But you do not do that at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Such committees as the American Friends' Service
Committee does not operate in the camp unless they have the approval
of the War Relocation Authority office in Washington.
Mr. Steedman. But the local administrator at Poston has nothing
to say about who shall come into the center? I mean from the stand-
point of issuing passes and permits.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; all the passes to go into the camp are issued by
the project director.
Mr. Steedman. But occasionally in such a case as the American
Friends' Service, you get an order from Washington to give a repre-
sentative of that organization permission to enter the center, is that
correct?
Mr. Gelvin. If we had any reason to feel that that organization
should not be on the project, we would voice our objection with the
W^ashington office.
Air. Steedman. Do you investigate all the organizations that come
to you for admittance to the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. We don't do it personally, no.
Mr. Steedman. Who does?
AJr. Gelvin. The War Relocation Authority office in Washington.
Mr. Steedman. Is Mr. Zimmerman setting up so-called hostels
throughout the Aliddle West?
Mr. Gelvin. No; he isn't doing it.
Mr. Steedman. Who is doing it?
Air. Gelvin. The American Friends' Service Committee, I under-
stand, have some. I couldn't tell you how many. And T believe
another church organization.
Mr. Steedman. What is the purpose of these hostels?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8843
Mr. Gelvin. It is one of the stops in relocation. For instance,
they will take a person in one of these hostels, one of the evacuees,
one of the Japanese and help him fiiul a job; help him or her find a job.
The theory is that to get the evacuee and the prospective employer
together and arrange for the employment of the evacuee.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat really happens is this, isn't it, that the Jap-
anese are released in care of tlie hostels m the various cities throughout
the Middle West, and then they live in these hostels until such time
as the}^ find employment?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. But they are released without having first secured
emplo3^meiit?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
IVIr. Steedman. Are they released in charge of the hostels?
Mr. Gelvin. They are released to the hostel and the fact is reported
to the nearest relocation officer. This relocation officer is an employee
of the War Relocation Authority. They have relocation officers in
many of the cities throughout the Middle West and East.
Mr. Steedman. ^^Tiose idea was that, do you know?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I couldn't tell you whose idea it was.
Mr. Steedman. How many Japanese have been released from
Poston to date?
Mr. Gelvin. In the neighborhood of 2,000.
Mr. CosTELLO. May I ask a question there? Who finances these
hotels? Are they financed by the churches or does the War Relocation
Authority pay the expenses of the Japanese while they are in the
hostel?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't telhyou. I believe they are financed by
the church organization.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you pay the expenses of the Japanese when they
leave the center and go to these hostels?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you give them $50 each when they leave, the
camp?
Mr. Gelvin. If he applies for it and states he has no money of his
own.
Mr. Steedman. Does he have to pay that back?
Mr. Gelvin. No, su*.
Mr. Steedman. That is a gift from the Government?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Together with a railroad ticket to wherever he
wants to go?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. v'^teedman. Have you had any Japanese who have gone out and
received $50, return to the center?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we have had returns. We haven't had any
retui-ns that I know of of people to whom this cash grant has been
given.
Mr. Steedman. If there were returns of Japanese to whom cash
grants had been given, would you give them another cash grant?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Just one cash grant is all that anv one Japanese is
entitled to?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
8844 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. What are the mechanics for releasmg an evacuee?
What I mean by that is, How does a Japanese in the center at Poston
go about getting out?
Mr. Gelvin. He makes apphcation to the leave office. His appU-
cation is investigated to determine whether he is eligible to leave,
Mr. Steedman. Right at that point I would like to ask you a
question: Wlio conducts the investigation of the evacuee who makes
application for leave?
Mr. Gelvin. The personnel in the leave office.
Mr. Steedman. The personnel in the leave office?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. How many people are employed in j^our leave
office at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. In the leave and employment office there are six
appointed personnel.
Mr. Steedman. And do these six .appointed personnel investigate
the propriety of releasing the individual Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct, to a certain point.
Mr. Steedman. How many employees are in the leave office?
Mr. Gelvin. They have four men and two women.
Mr. Steedman. Would you name these people?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Giles Zimmerman is the chief of that division,
Mr. Ed Nossoif.
Mr. Steedman. What is his title and salary?
Mr. Gelvin. His title is assistant chief, of emplovment; his salary
is $3,200.
Mr. Steedman. Had Mr. Nossoff had any experience with the
Japanese prior to going to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe Mr. Nossoff had had experience.
Mr. Steedman. Where?
Mr. Gelvin. Let me finish.
Mr. Steedman. All right.
Mr. Gelvin. Had had some experience with Japanese in the Salt
River Valley around Plioenix.
Mr. Steedman. Have you finished?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; pardon me.
Mr. Steedman. That is all right. Had Mr. Nossofl' had any
investigative experience, before going to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what there is in his background that
would qualify him to pass on these Japanese who want to be relocated
in the ]Vli<.ldle West and on the east coast?
Mr. Gelvin. Infoimation that we have assembled at the project.
We have what we call a stop list of people who are not eligible to leave.
Mr. Steedman. Was that stop list prepared b}" Mr. Zimmerman's,
office?
Mr. Gelvin. Not altogether; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. It is a compilation of inform.ation?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. And evidence?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. And you make up your stop list from that informa-
tion?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8845
Mr. Steedman. You said that Mr. Zimmerman was in charge and
Mr. Nossoff was second in charge. Will you name the next man in
line?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Ralph Dreiman.
Mr. Steedman. What is his title and salary?
Mr. Gelvin. Leave officer.
Mr. Steedman. Salarv?
Mr. Gelvin. $3,200, 1 believe.
Mr. Steedman. Wliere had he worked prior to going to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. lie was recruited through the civil service. He was
personnel officer for some large company in Cairo, Egypt, for several
years.
Mr. Steedman. Had he had any experience with Japanese before
going to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't think so.
Mr. Steedman. Now, who is the No. 4 man?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. John Hunter.
Mr. Steedman. And his title and salary?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't give you his correct title.
Mr. Steedman. Had he had any experience in the investigative
field before going to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No; he came out of the Indian Service.
Mr. Steedman. And had had no experience with the Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. No. 5 would be a woman, wouldn't it? You said
there were four men and two women?
Mr. Gelvin. Let me do a little checking here to make sure I am
giving voii absolutelv accurate information. Mr. Hunter is assistant
leave officer at $2,300 a year.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about his background?
Mr. Gelvin. lie was transferred to us from the Indian Service.
He has been in the Indian Service a great many years.
Mr. Steedman. What age man is Mr. Hunter?
Mr. Gelvin. He must be about 45.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please name the other two employees in
the leave office or in that section?
Mr. Gelvin. Dorothy M. Stevick. Her title is assistant director
of employment, $2,900. May I make a correction there in Mr.
Nossoff's title. His title is senior administrative assistant.
Mr. Mundt. While you are on Nossoff agaip, will you explain
what he was doing in the Salt River Valley prior to going to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I think he was with the TJnited States Employment
Service.
Mr. Steedman. He had possibly seen some Japanese down in the
Salt River Valley?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. And Mary M. Ataloa, assistant leave officer.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat nationality is she?
Ml-. Gelvin. She is part Indian.
Mr. Steedman. \Miat is her title?
Mr. Gelvin. She is assistant leave officer.
Mr. Steedman. And salarv?
Mr. Gelvin. $2,300.
Mr. Steedman. There are six people in this section who handle
the investigation of evacuees who are to be released?
62026 — 43— vol. 15 2
8846 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you have already stated that 2,000 had
been released since the project started; is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman, Over what period of time have those 2,000 been
released?
Mr. Gelvin. That is since the project started — since the project
was started.
Mr. StePjDman. How many are you releasing
Mr. Gelvin. Let me explain that a httle bit further. That 2,000
is the number that is out at the present time. There have been more
than that released on what we call "seasonal work leave" who have
returned; so altogether there have probably been 3,500 that have been
released and the difference between the 2,000 and the 3,500 are those
who have returned from seasonal work.
Mr. Steedman. Well, the 2,000 are what you call permanently
away from the camp on permanent leave; isn't that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. No; the 2,000 includes those on permanent leave and
those who are out on seasonal leave at the present time.
Mr, Steedman. At this time?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman, How many are out on permanent leave for reloca-
tion in the IVIiddle West and the East?
Mr. Gelvin. There are about 900 on permanent leave and about
1,100 on seasonal leave.
Mr. Steedman. Over what period of time have these 900 been
released permanently?
Mr. Gelvin. That is since the start of the project.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact these people on permanent
leave have been released lately; isn't that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. The most of them have, I would say, in the last 3 or
4 months.
Mr. Steedman. And these six people, four men and two women,
have handled all the investigations and cleared the 900 who have been
released over the last 6 months; is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. That is true; they have handled the leave section
there.
Mr. Steedman. That keeps them pretty busy, doesn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. They handle other work in that particular branch too,
Mr. Steedman. They handle other work in addition to that?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes!
Mr. Steedman. And they handle all the investigations of these
evacuees who make application for leave?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I wouldn't say that.
• Mr. Steedman. A'STio does make those investio'ations then?
IVIr. Gelvin.' We have an internal secu -l'.^ officer who handles in-
vestigative work and he turns in" any information that he might gather.
Mr. Steedman. Who is the internal security officer?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. MiUer.
Mr. Steedman. W^iat is his full name?
Mr. Gelvin. E. L. Miller.
Mr. Steedman. What is his title?
Mr. Gelvin. Cliief internal security.
Mr, Steedman. And his salary?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8847
Mr. Gelvin. $3,SU0.
Mr. Steedman. Bid he have any previous experience with the Jap-
anese before going to Toston?
.Mr. Gelvin. He was with the San Francisco police force before
coining to us.
Mr. Steedman. Then he had some experience with the Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. He must have had some, yes.
Mr. Steedman. VTho actually takes the responsibility for releasing
the Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. In the final analysis the project director approves the
release permit.
Mr. Steedman. And the project director is responsible for the in*
vestigation of eacli evacuee, isn't that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. The project director is responsible for all the work on
the project — all of the functions of the project.
Mr. Steedman. And he assumes the responsibility for the release
of the evacuees and the investigation of each evacuee; is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. He assumes the responsibility insofar as the investi-
gation that is included on the project.
Mr. Steedman. Would you please explain to the committee just
how you go about investigating each case?
Mr. Gelvin. First, as I said awhile ago, an individual hands in his
application for leave. That is checked with the stop list which vv^e
have.
Mr. Steedman. Does this stop list contain information that you
have gathered on the Japanese since they went to Postoii?
Mr. Gelvin. Most of it is — some of it. Some of the names there
have been placed there on advice of the Washington office.
Mr. Steedman. "Washington office?
Air. Gelvin. Washington office of the W. R. A.; jes.
Mr. Steedman. And you obtained information from the various
Japanese about other Japanese, is that right, about their loyalty and
their attitude toward the United States?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we have gotten some information from them.
Mr. Steedman. And that information is entered on your so-called
stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. If the evidence is such that the project director feels
it should be placed on the stop list it is.
Mr. Steedman. And the project director passes on that, does he?
Mr. Gelvin. Not altogether; on the stop list, you mean?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Gelvin. There are certain qualifications — certain regulations
that we have. If a person has, for instance, applied for repatriation to
Japan, we automatically place him on the stop list.
Mr. Steedman. Tliat should automaticall)' place him on the stop
list ; don't you think?
Mr. Gelvin. I should think so.
Mr. Mundt. Will you list five or six other characteristics that will
place a man's name on the stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. When we had our general registration of all the people
on the project over 17 years old, those who did not give an unqualified
affirmative answer to what we speak of as question ''28" which was the
loyalty question, those are automatically placed on the stop list.
8848 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Those questionnaires have all gone into Washington and through
their nivestigation in Washington if they find evidence against an
individual, through various sources of information that they might
have, why, they have notified us to place that individual on the stop list.
If an individu.al has had difficulty with — if he has violated the law or
committed some crime, why, he is placed on the stop list.
Mr. AIuNDT. You mean since he has been in the center?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; he is placed on the stop list. Then if we get a
report from a hospital, for instance, that a person was mentally
unbalanced and they didn't feel he should go out into the normal
channels, he woidd be placed on the stop list.
Those are the main things.
Mr. MuNDT. May I pursue tnis a little further? About how many
people do you have on your stop list all together, of the fifteen or
seventeen thousand Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. We must have close to — .^
Mr. MuNDT. Are those — — — ^ kept in separate barracks some
place?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Or do they intermingle with the rest of the people
in the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. They are not segregated in any way?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. /
Mr. MiTNDT. That is all.
Mr. vSteedman. You know they are bad but still you don't segre-
gate them; is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't know that they are bad.
Mr. Steedman. You have them on the stop list.
Mr. CosTELLO. Might I interrupt at this point? I think it might
be well if the press withheld any publication as to the number that
appear on the stop list. I will request the number ^ be off the
record .
Mr. Gelvin. I prefer to give you an accurate figure on that. I
am making an estimate now about the number.
Mr. CosTELLO. I feel it would not be well to publish that figure.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean the figure — ^ is not defuiitely accurate?
(No answer.)
Mr. CosTELLo. That is an approximate figure?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. But you are sure about the fact that they are not
segregated?
Mr. Gelvin. I am sure about that; yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. To what extent do they check on the past history
of the individual cases?
(No answer.)
Mr. CosTELLO. You have a record, I sup])ose, of the prior history
of the Japanese before they were brought to the camp. Is there any
investigation made of their prior history?
Mr. Gelvin. We have no records of that. Any investigation that
is carried on with regard to that is carried on in the W^ashington office.
As I say, all these questionnaires have been submitted to the Wash-
ington office. -
' Number stricken from the record, as roquosfeii by Chairmau Cost'llo.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8849
Mr. CosTELLO. So far as you know or so far as the camp is con-
cerned, no attempt is made to determine the past I)istory of the
individual prior to his being evacuated from his original home?
Mr. Gelvin. Not from our standpoint in the camp.
Mr. CosTELLO. Tlie Japanese uiay be released regardless oi what
their historj^ was or what the)^ may have been doing prior to being
assembled in the camp?
Air. Gelvin. If they do not fit into any of the categories which
would automatically eliminate them, such as application for repatria-
tion and things like that.
Mr. CosTELLO. Take for instance a person who may have been
employed in a consular ofEce or engaged in some definitely pro-
Japanese activity here on the Pacific coast prior to Pearl Harbor, jou
Avould have no record of that in the center or in your notes regarding
these people?
Mr. Gelvin. I would assume that if he was employed in a consular
ofRce, he would be in an internment camp.
Of- course, we had access to these forms when they were filled out
and I am quite sure that if they had been employed in that category,
and it came to our attention, it w^ould have been further investigated
and reported to the ^Yashington office.
Air. Costello. a girl might have been employed as a stenographer
or secretary or something of that kind in a consular office.
Mr. Gelvin. That is true.
Mr. Costello. But you would have no specific record of that
activity?
Air. Gelvin. Yes; we would have that on our census form. We
conducted a census there and we would have that information.
Air. Costello. The census form?
Air. Gelvin. Yes.
Air. Costello. Does that give information regarding the prior
activities of the Japanese?
Air. Gelvin. Past employment.
Air. Costello. But the principal source of your information is the
census form and the questiomiaire, both of which were filled out
voluntarily by the Japanese, concerning themselves?
. Air. Gelvin. That is right.
Air. Costello. You may proceed with the questioning, Air. Steed-
man.
Air. Steedman. Does the census form indicate the organizations to
which the particular Japanese belonged before Pearl Harbor?
Air. Gelvin. I am not sure whether the census form mcludes that
or not; the registration forms which we use do include that.
Mr. Steedman. Would that indicate to you that a certain Japanese
was an official in the Central Japanese Association prior to Pearl
Harbor?
Air. Gelvin. Novr, will you give me that question again?
Air. Steedman. The question was this: Does the form indicate
whether or not an individual Japanese was an official in the Central
Japanese Association prior to Pearl Harbor?
Air. Gelvin. The form asks that question. I can't remember just
what the exact wording is, but it asks whether or not the}^ belonged —
what organizations they have belonged to. Alayjje you have a copy
of that form; it is No. 304-A.
8850 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any exoIEtlal of the Japanese Asso-
ciation at Poston at the present time?
Mr. Gelvin. I beheve we have two.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know who they are?
Mr. Gelvin. ^ From a hst that was left there by the two investiga-
tors who were at the project recently. We found two members on
that. \^liether they were officers or not, I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Steedman. Going back again to the release of the evacuees.
Do you know where the evacuees who have been released are at the
present time?
Mr. Gelvin. The evacuees? We have their address of where they
went to. That is in the hands — that is in the fdes of the relocation
ofTicer in whichever area they have gone to and any changes of ad-
dress are supposed to be reported to the relocation officer who in turn
reports it to us.
Mr. Steedman. And when the evacuee leaves the center at Poston,
he is no longer a responsibility of the Poston relocation center; is
that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. He becomes then a responsibility of the relocation
officer in the area to which he is going?
Mr. Gelvin. Now, just how far does the term "responsibility" go?
Mr. Steedman. I mean he is free and able to do whatever he wants
to do after he leaves Poston.
Mr. Gelvin. A person going out on an indefinite leave is obligated
to accept tlic job that he has gone to.
Mr. Steedman. That is only a moral obligation; isn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. If he doesn't accept the job, the relocation officer
investigates and finds out why. However, that doesn't make it
binding, that he stay with that job. He is free to take another job
if he wants to.
Mr. Steedman. And the only obligation of the evacuee is that he
notify the relocation center or relocation officer of a change of
address; is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe that is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that the W. R. A. can put its hands
on each individual Japanese that has been released from the relocar-
tion center?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether they can or not.
Air. Steedman. Do you have any information regarding the
manner in which the Japanese are complying with your instructions
to keep the Employment Office informed of their whereabouts?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you receive a copy of the address of the evacuee
from the Employment Office when he sends in a change of address?"
Mr. Gelvin. Do you mean does the project get a change of address?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that comes into our employment office if there
is any change of address.
Mr. Steedman. Where do you maintain these employment offices?
Mr. Gelvin. You mean the project employment office?
Mr. Steedman. No, the employment offices throughout the
country?
Mr. Gelvin. The relocation offices?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8851
Mr'. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Gelvtx. Oh. I can name you quite a few. I don't know
whether I can name all of them or not. .
Mr. Steedman. Name the ones that you can recall.
Mr. Gflvin. Salt Lake City, Denver, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland,
Kansas City, St. Louis, Lincoln, Nebr. I believe those are all \ can
call offhand. However, I am quite sure there are more than that —
Billings, Mont. — I believe there is one there.
Mr. Steedman. Do 3^011 know what percentage of the evacuees who
have been released are aliens?
Mr. Gelvin. No, su-; I can't give you that figure'.
Air. Steedman. You are releasing aliens though, aren't you?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And ui the same manner m which you are releasmg
citizens?
Mr. Gelvin. No; not exactly in the same manner. There are
more restrictions in this way: When an alien is released it is reported
to the L^nited States attorney m whichever area they have gone into,
and they have to conform to the regulations concernmg any aliens in
this countiy. Diu-ing wartime they are more strict than at other
times.
Mr. Mundt. Aside from that, providing the man is not on the
stop list, it is just as easy for an alien to be released as it is a citizen,
so far as getting out of the camp is concerned?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think so.
Mr. !MuNDT. Does he get the same $50 from the relocation center?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. That was the reason I hesitated. I was
trying to tliink of any additional regulations concerning aliens.
Mr. Steedman. \Mio is in charge of the community government at
Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I assume you mean employed personnel who work
with the communitv government?
Mr. Steedman. That is right.
Mr. Gelvin. In each of the tlu-ee units we hav(» a camp manager
or a unit administrator, as they call them, and he works with the
community government in whichever camp it happens to be.
Mr. Steedman. Wlio is in actual charge of the community welfare
and recieation department for the entire center?
Mr. Gelvin. That is under the community service branch. Miss
Nell Findley was the branch chief but she has resigned.
Mr. Sieedman. \Mien did she resign?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe it was effective the 1st of June.
Mr. Steedman. The 1st of June this year?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; recently.
Mr. Steedman. \\liat were her duties?
Mr. Gelvin. She had under her, in her department, the family
welfare, community activities, recreation, health, education.
Mr. Steedman. ^Miere had she been employed prior to coming to
Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Honolulu.
Mr. Steedman. Did she come over to the mainland with Dr.
Carey?
Air. Gelvin. No; she came over prior to Dr. Carey.
8852 UN-AMERICAN" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Had she been associated with Dr. Carey in Hon-
ohihi?
Mr. Gelvin. Not in an ofRcial capacity. I think they were
acquainte'd with each other's work there — the natm-e of their work.
They had contacts with each other.
Mr. Steedman. Has Miss Findley been in social welfare work for
some time?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, she has.
Mr. CosTELLO. What work did she do in Honolulu?
Mr. Gelvin. At the time she came over she was in charge of a
phase of the U. S. O. work in Honolulu. Now, whether she was in
complete charge of the U. S. O. there or not, I don't know.
Mr. CosTELLO. How long had she lived in Honolulu, do you know?
Mr. Gelvin. She had been there a number of j^ears; I wouldn't say.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know what her activities were prior to her
connection with the U. S. O.?
' Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
A-Ir. CosTELLO. Did she have any particular vocation?
(No answer.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Was she a teacher or something of that sort?
Mr. Gelvin. She was a social welfare worker; that is her back-
ground. ^
Mr. Costello. You may proceed, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. She had had some experience with the Japanese
over in the islands?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; she had.
Mr. Costello. Do you know why she resigned from the project?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, she resigned for personal reasons; to go back to
Honolulu.
Mr. Costello. Returning to Honolulu?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Air. Costello. Has she returned yet, do you know?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't say. I believe that she has, tliough, but I
wouldn't — I haven't heard for sure whether she has left or not.
Mr. Steedman. Did you see her p^ersonnel papers when they came
into the project?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know who recommended her for employ-
ment there?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think she was recommended by Mr. John
Collier, Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have a list of the employees of the Poston
Relocation Center with you today?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you furnish the committee a copy of that list?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. [Handing paper to Mr. Steedman.]
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have marked as an
exhibit a list of the persomiel at the Poston Relocation Center, which
includes the title of the positions, the name of the employee, grade,
and salary.
Mr. Costello. What is the date of that?
Mr. Steedman. The date of the list is June 1, 1943.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8853
Mr. CosTELLO. It will be made a part of the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Gelvin Exhibit No. 1,"
and received in evidence.)
Mr. Mttndt. Now, that you have mentioned Mr. Collier, I wonder
if you will olaborat;^ a little more as to the nature of the dual re-
spou'^ihilities whieh you have in your capacity, with the War Reloca-
tion Authority and the Indian Service? You said earlier you had a
"dual responsibility."
Mr. Gelvin. ^\ell, we, as I stated, are employed by the Indian
Service. This particular project was worked out with an agreement
with the Indian Service and the War Relocation Authority.
Due to the fact that this was located right in the center of land
that the Indian Service had established long-time plans for to develop
this Colorado River irrigation project, the policies regarding the
development of the project — that is the development of the land,
were worked out between Mr. Collier — that is Mr. Collier repre-
senting the Interior Department, and Mr. Eisenhower, who was at
that time Director of the War Relocation Authority, so it was felt
that the two services w^orking together in that particular project
would be advantageous.
However, we have not been able to develop the land as had been
originally planned — that is in the quantities that had been planned.
However, with regard to the actual operation of the camp itself,
why, of course, we work under the rules and regulations and the
policies laid down by the ^^'ar Relocation Authority.
Mr. MuNDT. Aside from the development of the land and possibly
to advise as to phj'sical equipment that was put on it, does the Indian
Service exercise any other authority over the camp or do you have
any other responsibilities to the Imlian Service?
Mr. Gelvin. We are working under the general Indian Service
accounting regulations; as for the general policies, no. I would say no.
There are certain features like I mentioned, the accounting, fiscal
and accounting divisions.
]\Ir. MuxDT. There is no dual responsibility or division of authority
insofar as policies, for example, in letting these Japanese out of the
camp, or whether they are going to be segregated in separate barracks?
Mr. Gelvix. No, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. It deals only with accounting and agricultural prac-
tices and possibl^^ the physical equipment?
Mr. Gelvix. That is right. The Indian Service has given us
assistance in setting up the school program and such things as that.
Mr. MuxDT. This land used to be part of an Indian reservation?
Mr. Gelvix. Yes; it is right in the center of the Colorado Indian
Reservation.
Mr. Costello. But the actual direction of the center and the control
of the people there is entirely under the War Relocation Authority?
Mr. Gelvix. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. And the Indian Service is only interested in how
the ground is employed that belongs to the reservation?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right. The Indian Service is more or less, I
guess you would use the term., "a cooperating agency."
8854 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. They have no direction or control over how you
will operate the center?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to return for a moment to the chief
steward. Did you investigate the background of Mr. Snelson?
Mr. Gelvin. No; we didn't. He was recommended to us by the
W. C. C. A. and by the War Relocation Authority offices in San
Francisco at the tune we employed him. Upon receivmg their recom-
mendation, we api3roved their recommendation and employed him.
Mr. Steedman. I notice you have his name entered on your per-
sonnel chart here as Clifton E. Snelson.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what his middle name is?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether it is Earle?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. You don't know whether this is Earle Snelson or
not?
Air. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have his personnel record at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Would you furnish us the mformation as to
whether or not his middle name is "Earle"?
Mr. Gelvin. Could I furnish that information?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have the total montUy salaries paid the
administrative personnel at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I haven't it. I think Mr. Empie can probably
give you that.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Empie will be able to testify as to the cost of
the administration?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. As far as salaries are concerned?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. And you wanted also the middle name of
Mr. Snelson?
Mr. Steedman. That is right. And I also want to know whether
or not you carried on an investigation mto his background prior to
his going to Poston?
Mr, Gelvin. No; we didn't do it there on the project; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Civil Service carry on an mvestigation
into his backgroimd?
Mr. Gelvin. You would have to check with the Civil Service
Commission on that.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Civil Service Commission furnish you
with a result of their investigation of each employee that you em-
ployed there?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, they furnish us, I believe, with a form showing
their past employment and information of that kind.
Mr. Steedman. But you have never asked the Civil Service Com-
" mission to conduct an investigation on Mr. Snelson, have you?
Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge; not to run a specific investi-
gation on him.
I
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8855
Mr. Steedman. Have you asked it as to any of the other employees?
Mr. Gelvin. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Eberharter. May I ask a question?
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Eberharter.
Mr. Eberharter. Was he interviewed by anybody at Poston
before he was employed, or did he just come in cold?
Mr. Gelvin. He came in subject to our approval. That is, we
were without a chief steward and the W. R. A. oflBce in San Francisco
arranged for his services and sent hun right down to us, subject to
our approval as to his efficiency on the job.
Mr. Eberharter. And at that tune did somebody interview him
before he was put to work?
Mr. Gelvin. Oh, yes; Mr. Enrpie, the chief administrative officer,
i n t er vie wed him .
^fr. Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please explain the set-up of the Japanese
•community government inside the center?
Mr. Gelvin. The council — that is the term used for it — the com-
munity council is elected by the people, by the evacuees. They
elect one representative from each block and that representative can
be either Issei or Nisei.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have the percentages of the leaders — and
I am speaking of the block leaders — who are Nisei?
Mr. Gelvin. It is about half and half.
Mr. Steedman. About half are alien and about half are citizens?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct.
Mr. Mitndt. Does that mean he cannot be a Sonsei, or don't you
have any Sonsei in the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, a Sonsei — there wouldn't be any old enough.
yiv. Mundt. They are childi-en?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. And of course, the term "Kibei" that Mr.
Steedman referred to, technically he is a Nisei.
Mr. Steedman. You say they are divided about half and half,
Issei and Nisei?
Mr.' Gelvin. Yes.-
Mr. Steedman. Did you include the Kibei in the Nisei group when
you made the answer?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I don't know just how^ many of the Nisei are
Kibei though, in that group. We just had a recent election and, in
fact, I just gave them the oath of office just prior to coming over here.
Mr. Steedman. How many block leaders do you have?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, there are 36 in unit 1, 15 in unit 2, and 17 in
unit 3.
Mr. Steedman. Will you furnish the committee with a list of the
Kibei who are block leaders?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Can a man become a block leader and be on your
«top list?
Air. Gelvin. If he has not given an unqualified affirmative answer
of loyalty to question 28 on his Selective Service form, Form No.
304-A, he will not be approved as a block leader by the project
director.
Mr. Steedman. But he could be on your stop list and still be a
block leader, couldn't he?
8856 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. He could, yes.
Mr. Steedman. If he was elected to that position?
Mr. Gelvin. That is ri2:ht. He might have applied for repatriation.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any block leaders who have applied
for repatriation?
Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge; I would have to check that.
Mr. Steedman. T\'ill you furnish the committee with that informa-
tion?
Air. Gelvin. Yes. Will this information that you request, will it
be in the record or do you want me to keep a record of it?
Mr. Steedman. You can furnish the committee that information in
the form of a letter.
Mr. Gelvin. What I mean is, do you want me to keep track of the
information that you want?
Mr. Steedman. I wish you would.
Mr. Gelvin. Now, so far you would like the middle name of Mr.
Snelson; you woidd like a list of the Kibei who are on the council, is
that correct?
Mr. Steedman. Yes. Is the War Relocation Authority center at
Poston near adequate water supply?
Mr. Gelvin. What kind of water supply do you mean?
Mr. Steedman. How do you obtain water at the Poston center?
Mr. Gelvin. Domestic Wfter or nrigation water?
Mr. Steedman. Irrigation.
Mr. Gelvin. Comes from the Colorado River.
Mr. MuNDT. The list of matters about which you are going to
inform the committee, have you included the names of the block
leaders who have asked for repatriation?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you put that down?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese inside the center have a swimming-
pool?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many swimming pools do they have?
Mr. Gelvin. Two — no, wait a minute — two in unit 1 and one in unit
2, which are just wide places in the canal that goes through the camp.
Mr. Steedman. There is one swimming pool that you built for the
Japanese, isn't there?
Mr. Gelvin. No; we have — ^let me go ahead and explain that a
little further.
Mr. Steedman. All right, go ahead and explain it.
Air. Gelvin. The two pools that are referred to as ''swimming
pools" in unit 1 are wide ponds, you might call them, in the canal.
The canal comes down and it is widened out and it goes on — ^flows
through the two pools. In unit 2 they have a more elaborate swim-
ming pool which was constructed, mostly with volunteer labor. The
people wanted the swimming pool and pitched in and dug it out and
the canal flows tlu"ough it the same as it does the other two, but it is
a much better type of pool than the other ones.
Mr. Steedman. Are those swiinming pools used exclusively by the
evacuees?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, the appointed personnel can swim there if they
want to. It is not restricted.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8857
Mr. Steedman. Do they?
Mr. Gelvin. I have never seen them.
Mr. Steedman. Was this irrigation system that you have referred
to, built to serve the center at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. It is part of the long range plan of development that
the Indian Service had for the development of that entire valley
down through there — that is of the land on the reservation. Most of
it has been built smce the project was established there, however,
Mr. Steedman. You say it is part of the long-range plan?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Had the plans been made prior to the evacuation
of the Japanese from this coast?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Had 3^ou seen the plans prior to that?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I have not seen the plans. I have discussed
them with several.
Our chief engineer, Mr. Rupkey, is thoroughly familiar with it be-
cause he was the irrigation engineer at the Colorado River Indian
irrigation project prior to the War Relocation Authority.
Mr. Steedman. How many Indians of this reservation are there at
Parker?
Mr. Gelvin. Oh, I don't know — I could give you a guess.
Mr. Steedman. Well, approximately.
Mr. Gelvin. Around 700.
Mr. Steedman. And the Indian Service had planned to build this
large irrigation system for those 700 Indians?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. \Vliat was it planned for?
Mr. Gelvin. The plan was to move Indians into that reservation
after the project had been developed, from the other reservations of
the Southwest, which are overpopulated and cannot adequately sup-
port themselves on the other reservations where they were.
Those reservations included the Pima Reservation, the Pago, the
San Carlos Apache Reservation, the White River Apache Reserva-
tion, the Navajo Reservation, the United Pueblos, Hopi Reservation,
the Truxton Canyon Reservation. I believe that is about all.
Mr. CosTELLO. The program of development then was a part of
the Indian Bureau's own program to build up a big Indian develop-
ment in this area?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; it was a colonization project.
Mr. CosTELLO. But the irrigation system had not been completed
nor put in at the time the Japanese were placed there?
Mr. Gelvin. A portion of it was; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have the Japanese been employed in developing
that irrigation system?
Mr. Gelvin. The irrigation system — well, let me explain a little
further. The upper end of the reservation has already been developed
and is occupied by the present Colorado River Indians. Now, that
irrigation system is complete up there.
Mr. CosTELLO. Then this is an extension that the Japanese put in?
!Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; this is an extension from where they left off.
'Mr. Costello. And the purpose of that was so they could cultivate
the land adjacent to their camp?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct; yes, sir.
8858 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
«
Mr. CosTEi.LO. Are any of those l?nds now under actual cultiva-
tion?
Mr. Gelvin. "We have crops or, we have about 300 acres of crops
at the present time. "We have approximately 1,000 acres which are
ready for crops.
The crops v.ve not in because it is too late now to put them in.
"We are just in the process of finishing up the development on that, and'
we plan on having about thirteen or fourteen hundred acres ready by
fall to put in fall crops.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are those 300 acres sufficient to supply vegetables
and things of that sort for the Japanese themselves?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; they don't supply all of the vegetables.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is it your intention ultimately th{ t the crops pro-
duced there will be sold in the market?
Mr. Gelvin. "Well, our first intention is to try and make the project
as near self-supporting fs possible and then any surplus crops that
we have after we reach the point where we are self-supporting, then
it will be determined whether the Army shall have it, but I assume
that will be dealt with by the War Relocation Authority in Washington
as to the policy regarding surplus crops.
Mr. MuNDT. Who is paying for that extension? Who is paying for
the extension of the irrigation system? The Indian Office or the
W. R. A.?
Mr. Gelvin. Tiie W. R. A.
Mr. MuNDT. May I ask, Do the IncHan tribes which own this land
get a rental or something for the use of it by the W. R. A.? In the
first place are they tribal lands that are being occupied?
Mr. Gelvin. They are tribal lands, yes. No; I don't believe they
get any rent. I think the development of the land was figured to
oft'set that.
Mr. MuNDT. The development of the land is supposed to be their
compensation?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did you submit figures to Mr. Dillon Myer in
Washington, stating that you would plant 706 acres in vegetables this
year?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I expect we did. We were makuig estimates
along earlier in the year what our possible acreage might be and I
believe that is the figure.
Mr. Steedman. But you actually planted 300 acres?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Why did you not plant the 706 acres that you
reported would be planted?
Mr. Gelvin. We didn't have that — have it ready for water and
ready to farm.
Mr. Steedman. Was it due to any labor difficulties?
Mr. Gelvin. No, no; I don't think so.
Mr. Steedman. Then it was the responsibility of the project
administration rather than the fault of the Japanese; is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. It was mostly due to the fact that we had a break-
down in the various types of equipment — tractors, and we experi-
enced difficulty in getting repair parts. That is the reason we have
not been able to progress as rapidly as we planned.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8859
Mr. Steedman. What did the irrigation system that is the exten-
sion to the original irrigation system cost? I have reference to the
extension yon are building now.
l\Ir. Gelvin. I conkhi't give you the figures on that. It is not
complete.
l\ir. Steedman. Do you know how much money has been spent up
to date?
Air. Gelvin. No, su" I would prefer you ask Mr. Empie that
question.
Mr. Steedman. "Will he have those figures?
Mr. Gelvin. 1 think he will, yes. Of course, when we came over
we didn't know just what to bring over. We tried to make a guess
on the information that you would w^ant.
Mr. Costello. Let us take a 5-minute recess.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
You may proceed, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. 1 believe you stated you didn't know what the
extension to the irrigation system cost. That is correct, isn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the Congress appro-
[)riated any funds for the extension of the irrigation system?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, of course. Congress appropriated all the funds
that have to do with any part of the project. As to the nature of
the appropriation, I could not say.
Mr. Steedman. You don't know whether they appropriated money
for this project or not?
Mr. Gelvin. If they appropriated money specifically for that pur-
pose, I think Mr. Empie can give you that information.
Mr. Steedman. Did you use Japanese labor in constructing the
extension to the irrigation system?
Mr. Gelvin. We have used some Japanese labor and some white
labor.
Mr. Steedman. Has the work on the extension of the irrigation
system been done under a contract?
Mr. Gelvin. No, not up to now\ It has been done — no, there
has been no contract work on the canal.
Mr. Steedman. You did use some Japanese labor and some wliite
labor, is that correct? .
. Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. What do you pay the Japanese for that type of
work?
Mr. Gelvin, Some of it was $16 and some $19 a month.
Mr. Mundt. How long a day do they w^ork?
Mr. Gelvin. They are supposed to w^ork 8 hom*s.
Mr. Steedman. You say "supposed to work 8 hours." How many
hours a day do they actually work?
Mr. Gelvix. Some are very good workers and some are not so good.
They put in their time.
Mr. Costello. What do the 8 hours include? From the time they
leave the camp and arrive on the job or the time actually spent on
the job?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, most of the work is right there close.
Mr. Costello. Adjacent to the camp?
8860 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; and they are expected to be there from 8 to 5.
On that part of the project which is constructed away from the camp,
so travehng is required to get there, it is generally customary that
they go one way on Government time and one way on their own time.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you visited the operations and watched the
Japanese while they are actually on the job?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you spent any considerable time watching
them during any one day?
Mr. Gelvin. Oh, I have been there, oh, probably an hour at a time.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do they go to work promptly at 8 o'clock in the
morning?
Mr. Gelvin. Some do and some don't.
Mr. CosTELLO. You have no means of control over them to see
that they actually put in a good day's work?
Mr. Gelvin. \Vell, they are paid for what they do. If they only
work a half day, they are only given time for a half day.
Mr. CosTELLO. If they get out there at 8 o'clock in the morning
but do not start to work until 10, do they have 2 hours deducted from
their pay?
Mr. Gelvin. That is up to the foreman — whatever he turns in the
time for.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are the foremen all white men or are there some
Japanese foremen?
Mr. Gelvin. Most all the foremen are white.
Mr. CosTELLO. There are some who are Japanese however?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello. How much time do they have for lunch?
Mr. Gelvin. One hour.
Mr. Costello. One hour?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello, Is that from 12 to 1?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they work from 8 to 12 and 1 to 5.
Mr, MuNDT. Vi'hat happens to the money that they earn? Do you
have a sort of camp bank, or do they take the money home and keep
it in their own homes or rooms? Or do you know what happens to it?
Can they spend it for anything they want to?
Mr, Gelvin. Well, we don't have a bank there. That is their own
to do with as they want. If they want to maintain a bank account
somewhere else and send their money out, why, they can, or if they
want to spend it there they can.
Air. Steedman. Have you had any difficulty with the Japanese
about work assignments?
Mr. Gelvin. What kind of difficulty do you mean?
Mr. Steedman. Refusing to work after they have been assigned to
a certain job?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we have had several cases of that.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had any who refused to work on the irri-
gation project?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. How many?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't say now. Just how do you mean by
"refusing." No one there — it is not mandatory that they work. If
they have got money enough and don't have to work, why, they don't
have to.
UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8861
Mr. CosTELLO. They don't have to work at all, do they?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir,
Mr. CosTELLO. But they would still be able to secure their meals
and quarters which were assigned to them, without having to earn
them in any way, isn't that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct.
Mr. Costello. There is no obligation on their part to work? If
they don't work they will still eat and sleep?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Costello. And is their clothing also provided them?
Mr. Gelvin. Not if they do not work; if they are not on the job —
excepting welfare cases. For instance, as an example, there might be
a woman with several small children and she has no means of working.
She can't go away and leave the children and work. In a case of that
kind an investigation is made by the family welfare gi'oup and they
can issue a clothing allowance to her.
Mr. Steedman. You have had a large turn-over of Japanese labor
on the in-igation project, have you not?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Could you give us some idea about what that turn-
over has been on the project at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I could not.
Mr. Steedman. Who would have those figm^es?
Mr. Gelvin. I think Mr. Rupkey could probably give those better
than anybody.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how many Japanese are working on
the irrigation project at the present time?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't know what the total is on that.
Mr. Steedman. If you could use the Japanese to construct the
irrigation project, it would save the Government from employing
white men, would it not?
Air. Gelvin. Yes.
Jvlr. Costello. Wliere do you obtain your white labor that is used
on that project?
Mr. Gelvin. We have obtained some of it from the imions in
Phoenix.
Mr. Costello. There is no city immediately adjacent to the reser-
vation, is there?
Mr. Gelvin. There is just a small town of Parker,
Mr. Costello. That is about how far away?
Mr. Gelvin. That is 16 mUes from the project.
Mr. Costello. You don't provide any living quarters for labor,
do you? They live in Parker, do they not?
Mr. Gelvin. We have an old C. C. C. camp there that we moved
down and set up for laborer's quarters.
Mr. Mundt. What do you pay the white workers?
Mr. Gelvin. There are various ranges.
Mr. Mundt. For doing the kind of work that you pay the Japanese
$16 or $19 a month?
Mr. Gelvin. I think around $8 a day.
Mr. Mundt. Plus sustenance?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Mundt. Does the white laborer pay for his quarters in the
C.C.C.camp?
62626— 43— voL 1.5 3
8862 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Now, I understand the Japanese workers are volun-
teers. You send out word to the camp that you want workers and
they volunteer. You saj^ it is not mandatory?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. If it is not mandatory, then what do you mean by
saying they refuse to work. After they have started to work they
quit; is that what you mean?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. We have had — I assume that that is what A^r.
Steedman meant; that they didn't want to work on that particular
job and just quit.
Mr. MuNDT. They started out and then they quit?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello. Is that because of the difference in the wage level
between the white and the Japanese workers?
Mr. Gelvin. Oh, I think there are probably various reasons. I
imagine that is probably one of them.
Mr. Costello. Do they seem willing to work for that small amount
of money per m^ontli?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, they are not very well satisfied with that small
amount of money, but inasmuch as it is all they can get it is pretty
much a case of that or nothing.
Mr. Costello. They don't feel because they are also getting their
quarters and food supplied to them, that they are getting additional
compensation?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, I am sure some of them do look at it that way
and some of them don't consider it.
Some feel that the Gov^ernment placed them .there and the Govern-
ment is obligated to provide them with their food and housing.
Mr. Costello. Those who do work on the irrigation project re-
ceive all of their wages; none of it is taken away and put in a com-
munity fund or anything of that nature?
Mr. Gelvin. No; they receive all of it.
Mr. Costello. That is their individual m.oney?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Mundt. Do you intermingle the Japanese workers with the
white M'orkers, or do they have certain assignments to certain jobs or
certain portions of the ditch to work on?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, at first we intermingled them and that didn't
work out so good so now we try to keep them separate.
Mr. Mundt. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact some of the Japanese made
more than $16 or $19 a month by reason of their work on the irriga-
tion project, by renting trucks and equipment to the project?
Mr. Gelvin. We have rented some trucks from the Japanese; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any idea about how many trucks you
have rented?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, T have a list of truck rentals that
the project at Poston has made up, showing the trucks that have been
rented from the Japanese. I am not prepared at this time to lay the
foundation for entering it in evidence, but I would like to read this
just to indicate •
Mr. Costello. Where was that information obtained?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8863
Mr. Steedman. I would like to defer answering that question until
a later date so I may lay a proper foundation and enter it into the
record, but I would lilvc to question Mr. Gelvin regarding the facts
contained in this statement at this tune.
Mr. CosTELLO. Very well.
• !Mr. Steedi\ian. Do you know whether or not the project rented a
truck from Mack Nishimoto at the rate of $150 a month for a period
of 9 months?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think we have rented a truck from Mack
Nishimoto. As to the rental rate, I couldn't tell you that. Mr.
Empie will be able to supply that information.
Air. Steedmax. Do you know whether or not this truck was used in
building the irrigation system?
Air. Gelvin. No; I don't. I beheve that was a stake body truck
and it was used for general hauling. Now, some of the hauling may
have been for the irrigation system, but I am sure it was for general
hauling.
Mr. Steedman. Who fixed the figure of $150 a month as the rental
rate for this truck?
Mr. Gelvin. That would have been set by, probably, the Supply
and Transportation Officer wath Air. Empie's approval, inasmuch as
that is part of his responsibility.
Mr. Steedman. Did the project furnish the Japanese gasoline, oil,
and tires for the trucks while rented?
Air. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you the nature of the rental agreement
on that. I think Air. Empie will be able to give you that information.
Mr. Steedman. Air. Empie can testify regarding that matter?
Air. Gelvin. I believe he could ; yes.
Air. Steedman. As a matter of fact some of the Japanese who are
actually working on the irrigation project, received more money than
$16 or $19 a month because of the equipment they rented to the Gov-
ernment? * . '
Air. Gelvin. Yes. We have rented some equipment from the
Japanese.
Air. Steedman. I would like to next develop the food situation at
Poston. How well are the Japanese fed at the Poston project?
Air. Gelvix. Well, that is kind of a broad cjuestion.
Air. Steedman. Would j^ou say they are well fed?
Air. Gelvin. Well, I would say they are. adequately fed.
Air. Steedman. I believe you have already testified that Mr.
Clifton E. Snclson is the chief steward?
Air. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Does he have full responsibility for all food at the
Poston project?
Air. Gelvin. Well, now, I don't know just how to answer that
question. How far would you extend that responsibility?
Air. Steedman. I mean does he determine how much food is
necessary to feed the evacuees?
Mr. Gelvin. He makes up the menus on the basis of basic menus
which have been supplied by the Quartermaster Corps along in the
early stages of the project, and a basic menu which has been pre-
pared by the W. R. A. From those two basic menus, why, he makes
up the menus that are used there in the camp.
8864 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Does he also determine the quality of the food?
Mr. Gelvin. He determines the quality to some extent. In his
requisitions to the quartermaster, he would probably specify certain
types or kinds of food and they would supply it if possible and if not
they would have to make substitutions.
He receives certain instructions with regard to policies on quality
of food from the W. R. A. in Washington.
Mr. Steedman. Does the W. R. A. in Washington work out the
menus?
Mr. Gelvin. No. I previously stated Mr. Snelson prepares the
menus from the basic menus which have been submitted.
Mr. Steedman. They send you sample menus from Washington
and he orients it to what he has, is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. How many mess halls do you have at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, we have 72 blocks and 3 camps. That would
be 72 mess halls. However, there are 4 of those that are not in
operation. Actually about 68, I believe, would be the total.
Mr. Steedman. Is Mr. Snelson in actual charge of the operation of
the mess halls?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that is liis responsibility.
Mr. MuNDT. How many do you feed at each mess hall?
Mr. Gelvin. The population of that particular block and the
populations vary from, probably, 150 to 275 per block, may be 300
in some blocks.
Mr. MuNDT. Are they cafeterias or do you feed them country
style; put the food on the table?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, in some of the mess halls they have a kind of
cafeteria and they pass up by the counter and they are given their
plate of food and some of the mess halls feed on a family style — they
put the food on the table and help themselves.
Mr. MuNDT. In the cafeteria style mess halls do the customers
pick out their food or is the food handed to them?
Mr. Gelvin. No; it is dished out on a plate to him.
Mr. MuNDT. That is just to facilitate serving; is that it?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. It is a fixed meal, in other words, that is served
to them?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello. There is no cooking by the Japanese at their bar-
racks? They all eat at the mess halls?
Mr. Gelvin. Prior to point rationing, some did order food that
they kept in their barracks, because some of them probably could
afford better food than they were getting in the mess halls and were
willing to go to that extra expense.
Mr. Costello. But they would still be able to do that with non-
rationed foods?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they could with nonrationed foods if they could
get it.
Mr. Costello. If they wanted to buy food at Parker it would be
possible to purchase the food and have it in their quarters?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they could do that or send away to Phoenix
for it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTlVITIEiS 8865
Mr. CosTELLO. While tliey are at the camp the Japanese are not
given ration books, are they?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; but they are given ration stamps for shoes.
Those who came in and needed shoes they were given ration stamps so
they could buy a pair of shoes, but they are not given a regular ration
card.
Mr. CosTELLO. And they w^ere limited to one pair of shoes per per-
son up to June 17?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
jVIr. CosTELLO. You say they were given shoe stamps. Could they
go downto-wai and buy those shoes?
Mr. Gelvin. No; we have camp stores there at the camp.
Mr. CosTELLO. And you sell those shoes at cost or at what per-
centage of mark-up?
Mr. Gelvin. No. They are sold at a mark-up which I am told
averages about what the mark-up would be in a normal outside
business. Some of the mark-ups are less and some more, but they
are not sold at cost.
Mr. CosTELLO. It is designed to make a little profit for the camp;
is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. What happens to any profits that are made in the
commissary stores?
Mr. Gelvin. We are right in the process now of establishing a
cooperative. That hasn't been completely worked out, but when
that is established, why, those who hold shares in the cooperative
will receive a portion of the profits on the patronage basis.
Up to date the profits have been kept in a special fund and could
be termed as "community property." Those funds, however, are
handled by a bonded officer.
Mr. CosTELLO. How are the fimds used; for the general welfare of
the camp, such as putting on programs or entertainment or things
of that character?
Mr. Gelvin. There have been some used for recreation, buying
baseballs and baseball bats and equipment of that kind.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say you are going to establish these coop-
eratives. "VMiat does a person do to obtain a share or interest in a
cooperative?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, the bylaws of the cooperative, I believe, state
that the shares shall be available to any evacuee at $1 per share and
no more than one share to a person.
Mr. CosTELLO. They will be able to purchase an interest in the
cooperative for a dollar and interest?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Costello. And then they would each take their pro rata share
of any profits that might be made?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. \\hat is the necessity for establishing such an
organization?
(No answer.)
Mr. Costello. Isn't the present sj^stem functioning satisfactorily
or is there some dissatisfaction with it?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, it was the desire on the part of the evacuees to
establish a cooperative.
8866 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Was that desire expressed by them or was it
expressed by social welfare workers suggesting such a program to them?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I believe that was pretty
Mr. CosTELLO. It was their own suggestion?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; their own suggestion. Inasmuch as it is mostly
their own funds that are involved, why, as long as the method of
business meets with the regulations of the W. II . A. and the law,
why
Mr. CosTELLO. Do the bylaws prohibit a person from acquiring
more than one share or interest in the cooperative? In other words,
could one Japanese buy the interest of another Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. No. I believe the bylaws state that only one share
may go to an individual.
Mr. CosTELLO. There is no way in which the individual can transfer
his title in that share other than to sell it back to the cooperative?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't think so.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese have any voice in the kind of food
that is served in the mess halls?
IVlr. Gelvin. Well, they do in this way: The chief steward has sev-
eral Japanese who are his immediate helpers; his immediate assistants,
and they help him with setting up these menus and in that way, why,
I would say yes, they do have some voice in establishing a menu,
within certain limits — within the limits of available foods — point
rationing and our limit on how much a ration can cost.
W^e have a limit of 45 cents — that no ration shall cost more than
that.
Mr. Steedman. Forty-five cents per person per day?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Does the community government inside of the
camp have a committee on food?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they do.
Mr. Steedman. And that is a committee composed of Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Does that committee serve as an advisory com-
mittee to the chief steward?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they advise the chief steward and take whatever
part they can in helping the steward work out better rations, more
satisfactory rations from all standpoints.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have one type of menu for the Japanese
mess halls and another type of menu for the Caucasian mess halls?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, they have two menus for the
Japanese mess halls; isn't that right?
(No answer.)
Mr. Steedman. One American food and one Japanese food?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't believe so. That has been a very diffi-
cult problem with us in trying to feed people in a common mess hall
where some have been used to oriental food and some have been used
to occidental food and the menu is prepared to try and take care of
both types of food — both occidental and oriental.
There are a great many Japanese dishes used and prepared but, no,
we don't have two separate menus for the dift'erent types of people.
Mr. Steedman. How is your food purchased?
UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8867
Mr. Gelvin. It is purchased throiis^h the Quartermaster Corps.
Requisitions are prepared and submitted to the quartermaster 45 days
m advance.
Mr. Steedman. \Mio prepares the requisitions?
Mr. Gelvin. The chief steward.
Mr. Steedman. Are the requisitions routed through the director of
the project's office?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; they are not. Copies of the requisitions go
into the Washington office; and as I liave previously stated, the chief
steward is bound by whatever existing laws or regulations there are
concerning the food. He cannot exceed 45 cents per ration of food
nor can he exceed the rationed foods — more than what his ration points
would permit him to purchase.
Mr. Steedman. The chief steward prepares a requisition and sub-
mits it to the Quartermaster Obrps?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And that is the procedure for obtaining food?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Has that always been the procedure at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, yes; I think so. I can't thmk of any other
method that has been used.
Mr. Steedman. Have you always had sufficient food for the
Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, there were times along in the early start of
the project when there were days that kept us scratching a little bit
to have enough food.
There were delayed deliveries and all of the procedures had not
been worked out definitely with the quartermaster.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had any shortage of food in the last 6
months?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't tliink there have been any shortages. I
haven't heard of any.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't heard any complaints about it?
Mr. Gelvin. It hasn't come to my attention and if there had been
a shortage, I probably would have heard about it.
Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese as a rule eat much bread?
Mr. Gelvin. No; they are not very heavy bread eaters.
Mr. Steedman. They don't eat much bread?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know about how much bread is consumed
every day at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you how much is consumed every day,
but I might be able to tell you how much has been consumed from
the start of the project.
Mr. Steedman. Would you say there is consumed at the Poston
center about 3,750 pounds per day?
Mr. Gelvin. That seems like an awful lot of bread to me. From
July 1, 1942, to Alay 31, 1943, we purchased 1,268,159 loaves of
bread.
Mr. Steedman. Pound loaves?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, tliis is in pounds and a loaf generally weighs 16
ounces.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't the figure of the daiily consumption,
do you?
8868 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Eberharter. Is that G. I. bread?
Mr. Gelvin. Sir?
Mr. Eberharter. Is that Government issue bread?
Mr. Gelvin. No; that is the quartermaster's. The quartermaster
makes those contracts and it is regular bakery bread.
Chairman Costello. There is considerable difference between
Government issue bread and the regular commercial bread; is there
not? A dift'erence in the weight of the loaf and a difference in the
content also?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact who is your bread contract with
at the present time?
Mr. Gj:lvin. I don't Icnow. That contract changes every quarter.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever had a contract with the Olson
Bakery in Los Angeles?
Mr. Gelvin. I think so.
Mr. Steedman. Did that contract call for white bread enriched
with vitamin B, sliced, IK pounds net weight. Do you recall that?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't recall that. It might have been.
Mr. Steedman. You also serve whole wheat bread to the Japanese
at the project, do you not?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't recall that.
Mr. Steedman. Are the Japanese hoarding any of the bread that
is issued to them?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't heard anything about that at all?
Mr. Gelvin. No. Bread is something that doesn't keep very long.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the Japanese drying
the bread and hoarding it?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you conducted any investigation into that?
Mr. Gelvin. "Well, the chief steward is continually checking food
and the mess halls and he only issues the food from the subsistence
warehouses according to the population of the block that it is going
to. A block of 150 people would get half as much food as a block
of 300.
Mr. AluNDT. Do you bake any bread or muffins or biscuits or any-
thing of that kind in your kitchens?
Air. Gelvin. Some of the kitchens do some baking. There isn't
so very much baking because bread is not a big item of diet with the
Japanese, as I understand.
Mr. MuNDT. "Were those figures of one million some hundred
thousand loaves of bread, do they include the bread baked in the
kitchens?
Mr. Gelvin. No; that was the bread that was purchased.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever made an investigation of the bar-
racks to see if they had any cellars underneath the barracks where
they are hoarding food?
Mr. Gelvin. They have some cellars underneath the barracks.
Mr. Steedman. Were they constructed at the time the barracks
were constructed?
Mr. Gelvin. No. They have been dug out by the Japanese since
the camp was constructed.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8869
Mr. Steedman. The Japanese have cut holes m the floors and dug
cellars under the barracks, haven't they?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; some of them have.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what they keep hi the cellars?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't. Our chief steward has told me that he
has gone down into several of the cellars looking for sui-plus food that
has been stored there. Our internal security officer has had occasion
to go into several of the cellars and the cellars were, so it has been
explained to me, mostly constructed for the purpose of a cooler place
to sleep. ^Yhen you get a temperature around there of 130 it is
pretty hot sleeping in the barracks and I know some of them tell me
they do sleep in the cellars. And I have been also told that by the
internal security officer.
Mr. Steedman. Have, you instructed the internal security officer
to make a check of all the cellars in the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. No. sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you recently institute a search for hoarded food-
stuffs at the Poston Center?
Mr. Gelvin. I did not institute one. The steward may have made
a search for it but I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know the results of his search?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Did he report to you that he obtained about 7
tons of hoardelf foodstuffs?
Mr. Gelvin. No; he didn't.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever seen a report to that effect?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did the steward tell you that he obtained hoarded
bread from these cellars?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Would you go so far as to say the Japanese are not
hoarding rationed foodstuffs at the Poston Center?
Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge they are not.
Mr. Steedman. But the administration has made no check on that
matter at all, has it?
Mr. Gelvin. We have not ordered — have not ordered a general
search of the entire camp, if that is what you have reference to.
Mr. Steedman. Have you tm-ned up any isolated cases of food
hoarding?
Air. Gelvin. It hasn't come to my attention if they have. I
couldn't say "No," because I don't know whether they have or not.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Gelvin, is there any liquor sold to the Japanese
in camp?
Mr. Gelvin. No. In what way do you mean? Do the stores
handle liquor?
Mr. Mi'NDT. Any way. Are they issued Uquor or do they buy
hquor or have access to hquor?
Mr. Gelvin. It is against the law to have liquor, of course, on the
Project, and it is doubly so — in fact we are located right in the middle
of an Indian reservation.
We found one individual who brought in two cases of liquor, a
white man, apparently, a bootlegger, and he was turned over to the
United States attorney in Plioemx. That is the only case that we
have had.
8870 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. The camp generally is under the same liquor regula-
tions as an Indian reservation?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. We will declare a recess of the hearing until 2
o'clock tliis afternoon.
(Thereupon, at 12:30 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., of
the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The committee reconvened, pursuant to the noon recess, at
2 p.m.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order,
Mr. Steedman, you will proceed with your questioning.
TESTIMONY OF RALPH M. GELVIN— Resumed
Mr. Steedman. I would like to continue and develop the food
situation at Poston. How often does the chef serve ice cream at
Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't remember of him ever serving ice cream.
Mr. Steedman. The camp doesn't buy ice cream as a regular thing?
Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Sieedman. Do you serve milk? /
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we serve milk to children and* mothers with
babies.
Mr. Steedman. But milk isn't on the regular menu?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, no, only for those people.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the name of the milk company from
whom you buy the milk?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe we are getting our milk from the Golder
State Dairy Co. at the present time.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much milk is delivered daily?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe our contract calls for 6,000 quarts a day.
However, the steward told me recently that he was having difficulty
in getting that amount of milk. Some days the deliveries were down
to around 4,000 quarts. I believe the contract is for 6,000 quarts.
Mr. Steedman. That is the Golden State Dairy Co. that is located
here in Los Angeles?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, they have several places around over the State.
I think they have one in El Centro. I don't know whether ours is
coming directly from Los Angeles or El Centro. It is a California
concern.
Mr. Steedman. Does the steward serve fresh. fruit?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think he does. I think they do get some
fresh fruit. How much I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Canned fruit?
Mr. Gelvin. I think the only canned fruit and canned juices that
are served are served in the hospital to patients.
Mr. Steedman. It wouldn't be necessary for them to have much
of the various canned fruits and vegetables on hand if they only
serve it to patients in the hospital?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I shouldn't think so.
Mr. Steedman. And does the steward determine the quality and
the grade of the canned goods purchased?
UN-A]MERICA]Sr PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8871
Mr. Gelvin. Well, he orders the canned goods and I assume that
he specifies certain grades. That is purchased by the quartermaster
and he would get what they hav^e, I presume.
Mr. Steedman. But you would say on the requisition which is
wi'itton up b}^ the steward, that he specifies the grade and type of
canned goods that he wants at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. > I believe he does. You might ask Mr. Empie when
he comes m. He can probably answer that question.
Mr. Steedman. How often is meat served at the Poston center at
the present tmie?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. I haven't that figure with me. I
don't have the menus with me. I know we serve at least three times
a week.
Mr. Steedman. The steward serves meat at least three times a
week?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; whether we serve it more than that, I couldn't
tell you without looking over the menu.
^Ir. Steedman. Do you serve ham?
Mr. Gelvin. Y^es, we have served ham. That includes all types of
meat, ham or beef.
Mr. Steedman. vSteaks and bacon?
Mr. Gelvin. No; we don't buy any bacon.
Mr. Steedman. How long has it been since you bought bacon, do
you recall?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I wouldn't recall but I do recall the steward
saymg that he wasn't buj'ing bacon any more.
Mr. Steedman. That refers to the present time?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. But bacon has been purchased there?
Mr. Gelvin. I would assume that that is so. That is since point
rationing went into effect.
jMr. Steedman. Do you observe any meatless days at the Poston
center?
yir. Gelvin. Yes; we observe Tuesdays as a meatless day. and there
are generally several other meatless days during the week.
Mr. Steedman. Does the steward determine the type or grade of
beef that is Ijought at the Poston center?
yir. Gelvin. I believe he is buying what is known as No. 3 — grade 3
beef. I believe he has had instructions to that effect.
Mr. Steedman. Did he receive those instructions from \T ashington?
Mr. Gelvin. Y"es; I beheve so.
Mr. Steedman. And were those instructions received only recently?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you how recent.
JMr. Steedman. Do you recall the food shortage that occurred in
Los ^Vngeles during the last few days in December?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I remember reading the papers about it.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the meat shortage that was taking
place in Los Angeles during the Cliristmas season?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did the center at Poston have a sufficient quantity
of meat on hand during that food shortage?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe we did.
Mr. Steedman. And that had been ordered in advance?
8872 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. As I previously stated this morning, we submit
our requisitions 45 days in advance.
Mr. Steedman. There wasn't a meat shortage at the Poston center
during the time of the meat shortage in Los Angeles, is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't answer that truthfully to be sure about it.
Mr. Steedman. Does the chef at- the Poston center serve what we
commonly call left-overs?
Mr. Glevin. Do you mean take the left-overs from one meal •
Mr. Steedman (interposing). And serve them at another meal?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I understand they do.
Mr. Steedman. You understand that; have you ever seen it?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Have you checked into that?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know of any occasions since you have been
at Poston where the chef has wasted food?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, they may have. I can't quote you any specific
instances othei' than the chef — the steward has told me that he was
training a green bunch of cooks and that he would be very glad when
he got them broke in because they were not making the best use of
the food in its preparation.
Mr. Eberharter. Left-overs? Do you mean by that what is
left over on the individual plate; the individual serving?
Mr. Gelvin. No; what would be left over in the kitchen, I would
assume.
Mr. Eberharter. That which was prepared and left over and not
served. Is that what you mehn by "left-over"?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much garbage you have had at
the Center each day?
Mr. Gelvin. (No answer.)
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any idea as to the number of tons?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't other than this: We have had men from
the Quart'Crmaster working with us on that and they have estimated
that there is approximately enough garbage to feed about 2,000 head
of hogs with a population of that size. They recommended to us that
we establish a herd of hogs of about 2,000 head.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever seen the figure of about nine tons of
garbage a day for the Center?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I have not.
Mr. Steedman. Would j^ou say that would be an excessive amount
of garbage?
Mr. Gelvin. I really don't know whether it would or not. It seems
like a lot of garbage to me.
Mr. Steedman. Was there ever a time at Poston when you dug
trenches and buried the garbage in those trenches?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. There was a time at Poston when you did that?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And that was the manner in which you disposed
of the garbage?
Mr. Gelvin. We did at that time, before we got any hogs; yes.
Mr. Steedman. And you decided to quit disposing of the garbage
in that manner and bought some hogs, is that correct?
UN-AIVIERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8873
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Wlioii did you buy the hogs?
Mr. Gelvin. Our first hogs were bought some time last fall.
Mr. Steedman. You don't recall the approximate date?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't recall the approximate date.
Mr. Steedman. Who suggested that you buy the hogs?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you who brought out the suggestion.
That had been in our earlier plans for the project, to establish a hog
farm just as quickly as we could, in which every one was in agreement
with the administration and others.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall receiving a directive from Washing-
ton to obtain some hogs?
Mr. Gelvin. ^Ye may have received it. I don't recall just off-
hand of seeing it, though.
Mr. Steedman. How many hogs did you buy first?
Mr. Gelvin. I think our first purchase was around 300 head.
Mr. CosTELLO. Don't you remember what date that was; whether
it was October or November of last year?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't. It would be along in the fall, though.
Mr. CosTELLO. From the time of establishing the center in April,
up until the time the hogs were purchased, nothing was done about
the disposition of garbage other than to bury it in trenches?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated 300 hogs were purchased to
begin with?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall whom you bought the hogs from?
Mr. Gelvin. They were bought here, I believe, on the Los Angeles
market. Bids were issued for the purchase, and just who the low
bidder was I don't know offhand.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what you paid per pound for the hogs?
Mr. Gelvin. The first bunch of hogs we paid 25 cents a pound for.
Mr. Steedman. Twenty-five cents a pound?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Was the ceiling price on hogs at that time 16 cents?
Mr. Gelvin. Might be now; I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the average weight of these hogs per
hog
9
Mr. Gelvin. I think it was something over 100 pounds.
Mr. Steedman. Didn't they weigh about 200 pounds each?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't think they were that heavy.
Mr. Steedman. They weren't?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't believe so.
Mr. Steedman. They were fat, anyway, weren't they, when you
bought them?
Mr. Gelvin. No; we bought them as feeders.
Mr. Steedman. Have you killed any hogs yet?
Mr. Gelvin. No; not yet.
Mr. Steedman. In your opinion, was buying feeder hogs at the rate
of 25 cents a pound good business practice?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, no; a farmer probably wouldn't go out and pay
that much for hogs. However, when these hogs are ready to butcher,
if it is shown that there has been a profit made or money saved,
why, I would assume that it was good business.
8874 "msr-AMERicAN propaganda activities
Mr. Steedman. It would be very difficult to make a profit on the
hogs that you paid 25 cents a pound for when the ceiling price is now
around 16 cents, w^ouldn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, that depends on how much gain you put on
your hogs and how much it cost you to put the gain on.
Mr. Steedman. Well, I think if you will check that you will find
those hogs averaged about 200 pounds per hog. I wish you would
check on that and let me have the information with reference to the
average weight of the hogs.
Mr. Gelvin. All right.
Mr. CosTELLO. You don't have the detail as to exactly where the
hogs were purchased or whether they were hogs being sold on the
market here for sjaiighter?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. CosTELLO. But they did take l)ids generally before they pur-
chased the hogs?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. For the first 300 hogs you purchased you paid 25
cents a pound. How many hogs have you purchased subsequent to
the original purchase of 300?
Mr. Gelvin. We have about, something over 600 head. I think
it is 620 head; something like that.
Mr. Steedman. What is the average price for the last 300 hogs
that were purchased?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. ^Vlio would have that information?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie would.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Empie would have that information?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he would have that with him
or not.
Mr. Steedman. How many warehouses do you have at the war
relocation project at Poston?
M[r. Gelvin. We hav^e 80 at the project itself and then there are
6, I believe it is, at the rail head at Parker.
Mr. vSteedman. Could you give the committee any idea as to the
size of the warehouses — and I mean by that their floor space?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe they are 20 by 100—20 feet wide and 100
feet long.
Mr. Steedman. Wlio is in charge of the warehouses?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Wickersham is the chief warehouseman.
Mr. Steedman. What is his first name?
Mr. Gelvin. Ernest.
Mr. Steedman. What is his salary?
Mr. Gelvin. $2,900, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. Had he had previous experience before gomg to
Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I can check on that list.
Mr. Steedman. Has Mr. Wickersham had previous experience as a
warehouseman?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; he was warehouseman with the Soil Conservation
Service, I think, before he came to us.
Mr. Steedman. Is he a native of California?
Mr. Gelvin. No. I think he is a native of Arizona. He used to
live here in California but I think he spent most of his life in Arizona.
un-Ajmerican propaganda activities 8875
Mr. Steedman. Has Mr. Wickorsham had any experience in work-
ing Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he has or not. I don't bcheve
he has.
Mr. Steedman. AMio is the second man in charge of the ware-
houses?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Hugh Felsted.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not he had any experience
with Japanese people?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't bcheve he has had.
Mr. Steedman. \^^io is the third man in the warehouses?
Mr. Gelvin. Bert Vatcher.
Mr. Steedman. What is his title?
Mr. Gelvin. Warehouseman, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. And his salary?
^Ir. Gelvin. It is either $2,300 or $2,600. I am not sure.
Mr. Steedman. $2,000, according to this list which yotrhave given
me. Have you lost any goods from trucks while en route from the
railhead at Parker to the warehouses at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge, no.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't any record of any loss of goods,
materials or food?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I. know of.
Mr. Steedman. Would you have that information if any such goods
or materials had been lost?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, it might be reported to me and it might not be.
Mr. Wickersham, I believe, would have that information. I am not
sure he would.
Mr. Steedman. How would a loss be handled m your accounting
department?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe you had better ask Mr. Empie that. You
are getting into accounting regulations there.
]\Ir. CosTELLO. You haven't any check up yourself directly over the
warehouses?
Mr. Gelvin. No. I go down through the warehouses occasionally
but the warehousing is under Mr. Wickersham who is responsible
directly to Mr. Empie, the chief admimstrative officer.
Mr. Costello. If any shortages occur it is Mr. Empie's responsi-
bility to check with Mr. Wickersham and make certain Air. Wicker-
sham is properly administering the warehouses?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. Neither you nor Mr. Head would have direct super-
vision of that?
Mr. Gelvin. No. Of course Mr. Empie reports du'ectly to Mr.
Head.
Mr. Steedman. Have you received aiw reports that goods and
materials were being stolen from the warehouses at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No. No; I haven't.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether Mr. Head has received any
reports of that nature?'^
Mr. Gelvin. He has never discussed that with me. I don't know
whether he has or not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Empie has re-
ceived any reports of anything being stolen from the warehouses?
8876 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Has he discussed the warehouse conditions with
you?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think in the normal course of your work
that you would hear about it if goods were being stolen from the
warehouses?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, I am sure I would if there was any actual stealing
where such a matter should be brought to the attention of the project
director or the police.
Mr. Steedman. Would you say that the warehouses are being
operated in an efficient manner?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I believe they are.
Mr. Steedman. Are you able to distinguish one Japanese from
another if you don't know them personally?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, yes, to some extent.
Mr. Steedman. It is quite difficult to do, isn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, they have definite features the same as anybody
else. They don't all look alike. They are not like a bunch of peas in
a pod, but there is probably more similarity between those people
than in other races of people.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have a system of passes that you use at
Poston which permit the Japanese to go out of the project?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Does each individual Japanese have a pass who is
working?
Mr. Gelvin. There are some workers who do have what we call
"work passes."
Mr. Steedman. Do the workers who are entitled to leave the project
have a pass which permits them to leave at any time?
Mr. Gelvin. There are some workers who do have what we call
"work passes" that are issued for a specified length of time. I am
thinking now of fellows who work — workers who handle some of the
hauling and handle express. Those passes, though, are for specified
time that they are to be off of the project and they are generally
limited to a short period of time. It isn't a blanket pass that is good
until revoked or something of that sort.
Mr. Steedman. Do the passes have a photograph of the bearer of
the pass upon it?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. There is no identification on them at all?
Mr. Gelvin. They don't, no.
Mr. Steedman. Are the Japanese able to transfer the. passes back
and forth between themselves?
Mr. Gelvin. I have heard that that has been done in one or two
cases. We haven't been able to trace it down and find out for sure,
but it has been said to me that there have been some cases of that
kind.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in direct charge of issuing the passes?
Mr. Gelvin. Those going out on work leaves- — that is that go
outside the camp to work, they are issued daily work passes. Those
are issued by the project director or myself upon the recommendation
of the foreman, by the foreman whoever they are working for.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACnVITIES 8877
If there are any special passes for any purpose that are needed, say
to go to Phoenix, those are issued on the recommendation of the
doctor at the hospital if they need to go there for medical attention —
something that can't be given to them there at the project.
If there are any other special passes that need to be issued the camp
managers, that I mentioned this morning, of each of the tlu-ee camps,
clear through them and they are issued on their recommendations.
Mr. Steedman. There are a number of people inside of the project
who have the authority to sign passes, is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. No; there are only just Mr. Head and myself who
sign the passes, but there are several people whose word we would
accept that they wished those passes issued.
Mr. Steedman. Do you Ivtiow how many dump trucks you have
purchased at Poston since the project started?
]Mr. Gelvin. I might say that we have 65 dump trucks. I couldn't
teU you just how many of those have been purchased outright. Some
of those we have borrowed from the Indian Service; sdme of them were
transferred to us from W. P. A. in Phoenix.
Mr. Steedman. Did you buy any trucks from a salvage company
in Los Angeles?
Mr. Gelvin. We bought some dump trucks here in Los Angeles.
Mr; Steedman. Do you recall approximately how many?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Would you. say 20 or 30 or 40?
Mr. Gelvin. I think we have bought probably 30 — as many as 30.
I think they have been purchased from several different outfits. I
don't think they have all been purchased from one outfit.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall which company you purchased the
majority of the trucks from?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. In purchasing these trucks, from the salvage com-
panies in Los Angeles, did Air. Empie first refuse to authorize the
purchase of these trucks?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you whether he did or not. He would
depend on all of the matters surrounding the purchase of the trucks.
Mr. Steedman. Did you discuss the purchase of the trucks with
Mr. Empie? "^ •
Mr. Gelvin, No; I did not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the purchase of the
trucks?
Mr. Gelvin. No; only that I know the trucks were purchased.
Mr. Steedman. Did the trucks that were purchased from the sal-
vage companies in Los Angeles, go to Poston under their own power?
Air. Gelvin. I don't think we would accept them unless they did
go to Poston under their own power.
Mr. Steedman. I mean by that, were any of these trucks towed
into the center at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. They wouldn't do us any good
if they wouldn't run.
Mr. Steedman. Can you testify that these trucks went to Poston
under their own power?
Mr. Gelvin. I think you had better ask Mr. Empie about that.
Mr. Steedman. I have reference to the trucks that were purchased
from the salvage companies in Los Angeles, or any of them?
62626 — 43— vol. 15 i
8878 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie can give you the exact details of that.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in actual dii-ect charge of procurement at
Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, that is in Mr. Empie's division.
Mr. Steedman. Does he have a procurement man under him?
Mr. Gelvin. There has been a change there recently. Mr. Palmer
is the procurement officer. His assistant, Mr. Schoenhaut would
probably be closer to the actual procurement and handling all the
details.
Mr. Steedman. Does Mr. L. L. Nelson have anything to do with
the procurement department?
Mr. Gelvin. No, he doesn't now.
Mr. Steedman. Has he had at any time?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; in the early part of the project he helped pur-
chase some of the equipment and supplies.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Nelson had
anything to do With the purchase of dump trucks from the salvage
companies in Los Angeles?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't believe he did.
Mr. Steedman. Has the center at Poston been investigated to your
knowledge?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, there was an investigator for Senator Chandler's
committee who was there; and two investigators, I understand, were
there from your office here.
A representative of the quartermaster comes out. I think they
made four or five inspections since the project has started. That is,
they are mostly interested in subsistence supplies.
Mr. Steedman. You don't know of any other investigations?
Mr. Gelvin. I understand that we exj^ect a committee from the
W. R. A. out very shortly to make an inspection.
Mr. Steedman. From the Washington office of the VV. R. A.?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Prior to the investigations that you have testified
were conducted, did you know that the investigators were going to
visit the project?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, we knew that Mr. Malone, Mr. George Malone
from Senator Chandler's commfttee was scheduled to come there.
We didn't know just what date until the morning that he was to
come in.
When the men from the quartermaster come sometimes they notify
us and sometimes they don't.
Mr. Steedman. Had you ^ade any preparations for the investi-
gators that came out to conduct an investigation?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Head call the Japanese together and advise
them that investigators were coming to the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge; no.
Mr. Steedman. Did he call the staff together and advise them of the
approaching visit of investigators?
Mr. Gelvin. To what extent he notified the staff on those things
I don't recall. I don't recall having had a meeting where he advised
us that there was to be an investigation.
Mr. Steedman. He told you though, didn't he?
Air. Gelvin. Yes. We have also been investigated by the Spanish
consul.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8879
Mr, Steedman. How often does the Spanish consul come to the
project?
Mr. Gelvin. He has been there once.
Mr. Steedman. When he visited the project, did he confer a
medal on some of the young Japanese in recognition of their pro-
ficienc}' in kendo and judo?
Mr. Gelvin. No; he didn't give medals. They were going to have
a judo tournament and as an expression of good friendship and all,
he sent a cup down to be awarded to the person that won the judo
tournament. That has been some time ago.
Mr. Steedman. Did you feel that was an unusual thing for the
Spanish consul to do?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I guess not. That is something that was pretty
much his own business, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. He makes inspections of the center as a repre-
sentative of the Japanese Government, is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. The same as the Swass representative in Japan
makes inspections, ostensibly, for our Government, of their intern-
ment camps?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the background of
judo?
Mr, Gelvin, No. I have had it explained to me. That is all the
background I know.
Mr. MuNDT. May I ask what it was explained to be?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, there has been a conflict in explanations.
Some have told me that it is part of the militaristic training of Japan.
Others have told me that it is a Japanese sport which has nothing to
do with the military; that it is a sport in Japan like our wrestling would
be here or our football or any other sport.
Mr. MuNDT. Is it something like our wrestling matches? Is a judo
tournament similar to a wrestling match?
Mr. CosTELLO. Jujitsu?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; it is kind of a wrestling match.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is that all it consists of, just a sporting activity
such as wrestling or a jujitsu performance?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, I have seen several matches and they get pretty
wicked with one and another.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you think it is purely a sport?
Mr. Gelvin, We felt not and so Mr, Head took steps to disband
the judo classes and judo tournaments that they were having.
Mr. Eberharter. When was that done?
Mr. Gelvin, That was some time durmg the early spring.
Mr. Eberharter. Early spring?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Is this game of judo done witli sticks or swords or
guns or ba^^onets?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; it is barehanded wrestling. They don't use
anything else. There seems to be some ceremony in connection with
it. They come out and bow to one another and then proceed to tiy
to throw each other on the mat.
Mr. MuNDT, How is victory exemplified? When they are thrown?
Mr, Gelvin. Yes.
8880 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Do they knock them out or what?
Mr. Gelvin. They throw them similar to what our wrestlers do.
Mr. CosTELLO. Who conducted the classes in judo that were held?
Mr. Gelvin. The Japanese judo instructors.
Mr. CosTELLo. Were they some of the Japanese who had been
trained in Japan and returned back to this country?
Mr. Gelvin. I think in most cases they were the Kibei.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were there any alien Japanese among them?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't say offhand whether there were or not.
There were a number of judo instructors but whether some of them
were alien or not, I couldn't ?ay.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were the classes or instructions conducted in the
English language or Japanese language?
Mr. Gelvin. They were mstructed in the Japanese language, I
believe.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, if judo was used as a form of mili-
tary training, unless a person understood Japanese he wouldn't know
what they were giving in the way of instructions to the Japanese while
they were in these classes?
Mr. Gelvin. No ; no more than if we heard some people talking to
one another in Japanese. We wouldn't know what they were saying.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. How many white members of your staff do you have
who speak Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. Two that I know of.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you name them?
Mr. Gelvin. Miss Cheney. I can't tell you the other lady's name.
There is another lady there that is working with Miss Cheney.
Mr. MuNDT. Haven't you any men at all on your white staff that
speak Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. None that I can think of right now. I can't recall
any that speak Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat positions do these two ladies whom you just
mentioned as speaking Japanese have in the project?
Mr. Gelvin. Family welfare work. They were in Japan for some
years.
Mr. Steedman. Returning to the judo practice at the center at
Poston. Has anyone told you that the ceremony preceding the
actual bouts had anything to do with Shinto practice?
Mr. Gelvin. No; they haven't.
Mr. Steedman. No one has told you that?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. In connection with the judo classes, did they also
have kendo classes or swordsmenship classes?
Mr. Gelvin. No; they have had no kendo there.
Mr. Steedman. They have had no kendo matches?
Mr. Gelvin. No kendo matches; no.
Mr. Steedman. Have you found that the gangster element in the
center was centered around the judo classes?
Mr. Gelvin. No. We had thought that at one time and Mr.
Head went into it quite thoroughly and I think he felt satisfied when
he got through that there was not a direct connection between the
gangstei's, so-called gangsters, and the people who were giving us
difficulty and the judo.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8881
Mr. Steedman. Then why did he eliminate judo?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Head eliminated that prior to his making a
pretty complete investigation of it. He directed the check and I
think later it turned out there .wasn't any comiection that he
previously thought there was.
Mr. Steedman. He eliminated it and then later made an investi-
gation and determined it was all right? Is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he still considers it all right or
not. I think there is a question.
Mr. Steedman. Have you investigated it j^ourself?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I haven't.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the background of
judo?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Have you heard of an organization called the
Butoku-Kai?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Head has
checked an organization known as Butoku-Kai?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Would you be aware of the fact if you had any
members of the Butoku-Kai at the Boston center?
Mr. Gelvin. No ; but if we had a list of the members of the Butoku-
Kai we could check to see.
Mr. Steedman. But you haven't made an independent check
yourself?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. In fact, I don't even know
what "Butoku-Kai" is.
Mr. Eberharter. What was the answer?
(Answer read.)
Mr. Steedman. If you were to learn that the Butoku-Kai was sub-
versive, don't you think it would be proper for you to have a list of
the Butoku-Kai members who are at Boston?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, if it was subversive and we had any members
there, why, I think they should be taken out and segregated.
Mr. Steedman. Who determines whether or not Japanese organi-
zations are subversive?
Mr. Gelvin. We would be, I believe, informed by our Washington
office and given a list to check from, of any they considered dangerous.
Mr. Steedman. Does the W. R. A. have a board in Washington
which determines all the questions of loyalty or disloyalty on the part
of the evacuees?
Mr. Gelvin. The questionnaires that were sent in that I mentioned
this morning on the Form 304-A, I understand are checked by a joint
board in Washington.
I have been informed that that joint board is made up of repre-
sentatives from — a representative rather, from G-2, a representative
from the office of Naval Intelligence, a representative from the
F. B. I., the Provost Marshal General's office and then the War
Relocation Authority.
Mr. Steedman. And this board sits in Washington?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. But there isn't such a board at the Boston center,
is there?
8882 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. How often does the director of the center at Poston
confer with the F. B. I.?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. We have an agent from the F. B. I.
who comes into the project quite often.
Mr. Steedman. Do the ofhcials of the Poston Center discuss the
question of each individual evacuee with the F. B. I. before he is
released?
Air. Gelvin. No. When the F. B. I. deem it necessary, why, they
come in to get a man. They don't ask our opinion or discuss it with
us. In most cases they come in and take the man and go out. In
fact, there have been times when they have taken a man and gone
before I knew about it or before Mr. Head knew about it.
Mr. Steedman. Do the administrative officials at the Poston Center
have an F. B. I. report on each evacuee before he is released from the
center?
Mr. Gelvin. We don't at the project. I assume that the — or, I
have been told that the — that the War Relocation Authority in Wash-
ington is given what material the F. B. I. has on the evacuees and use
that in some of their determinations as to whether individuals should
go out.
Mr. Steedman. What is the name of the official newspaper at the
Poston Center?
Mr. Gelvin. At Poston, it is the Chronicle.
Mr. Steedman. I hand you a Poston Clu"onicle dated Saturday,
January 9, 1943. Is that the paper that you published at the Poston
Center?
(Handing paper to the witness.)
Mr. Gelvin. I believe so,
Mr. Steedman. You have already seen this, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Costello. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to read into the record a short article
from the Poston Cln-onicle, dated Saturday, January 9, 1943, and I am
quoting from an article entitled:
Relocation Work Set-up in Washington Told by V. Kennedy
And I quote the second paragraph:
Mr. Kennedy asserted that the F. B. I. does not clear the evacuees but they are
cleared by the W. R. A. through information gathered by the F. B. I.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that is a clear and correct statement
of what the situation is there at the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, he is referring there to the Washington set-up
on that. He is not referring to the set-up at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. He is not referring to the set-up at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Mundt. Didn't I understand you to say, Mr. Gelvin, that at
Poston you do not confer with the F. B. I. about a Japanese who is
about to be released; that that conference, if any, takes place in
Washington?
Mr. Gelvin. No, not necessarily. If the F. B. I. have reasons or
evidence to pick up a person, why, generally, the local representative
of the F. B. I. from the Phoenix office comes in and takes the person
out.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACnVITIES 8883
Mr. MuNDT. I am not referring to that. I am referring to the men
that yoii release to private Ufe.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Before you release them I understand you to say that
you do not check with the F. B. I. to see whether they were eligible
for release, but that if any check were made it was made in Wash-
ington?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. I noticed an article in the Los Angeles Examiner this
mornhig bearing a Washington date line, dated Jmie 7, quoting the
California State Legislative Committee which is apparently investi-
gating the same thing, and this stor}^ says that Lee R. Pennington,
"an F. B. L official" — by the way, has he ever been to your camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of.
Mr. MuNDT. Says that Pennington told the delegation, according
to Sewell that his statement — Senator J. L. Sew^ell, Pennington told
the delegation, according to Sewell, that the F. B. L had never been
requested to investigate Japs being released and have not conducted
any, which would seem to indicate that the Washington office also
does not check with the F. B. L
Do you have reason to believe Mr. Sewell was wrong in his state-
ment?
Mr. Gelvin. Now, we have — let me give you the information we
have and, of course, I wouldn't contradict the statement there. He
should know what he is talking about. But we receive telegrams
from time to time from the Washington office stating:
"Do not release^ — do not issue permit" to such and such an indi-
vidual. "His file is awaiting further F. B. I. check."
I was in Washington in January and I talked with the lady there
who was handling some of the mechanics of the thing there — leaves,
and she showed me several cases that had been referred back to them
by the F. B. I. as having — the F. B. I. had some information on them,
so, therefore, they were refusing to clear them and were putting them
on the stop list.
I believe there must be a little conflict there.
Mr. MuNDT. It is quite possible that we are talking about different
things. As I gathered from what you said those are the cases where
the F. B. L lia^ obtained a clue that there was a subversive Japanese
some place, and they had taken the mitiative in notifying whichever
camp held that man and advising that he should be on the stop list.
Now, this other situation originates in your camp and in all camps,
as I understand it, and you prepare a list of men and women who have
been tentatively approved for release to private life and you send that
list to Washington, don't you?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't release them until Washington has ap-
proved them, or do you?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. We can release them without prior Washington
approval if they do not fall into certain categories which would
automatically hold them back.
Mr. MuNDT. All right. If you have a list then that does not con-
tain any names from your stop list, you can release them without
submitting that list to Washington? .
8884 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. No, we submit the list to Washington but we can
release them and advise Washington
Mr. MuNDT. That they are out?
Mr. Gelvin. That these individuals are being released.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that the general practice? Are you releasing
them first and then standing by to see whether Washington wires
back that you have let the wrong men out?
Mr. Gelvin. In the last month or two that has developed because
of the fact that they have had time now to go over all of the question-
naires which went in on each individual over 17 years old, and those
whom they had information on they would put them on the stop list.
We have already been advised of some. Theoretically the ones
now that we have and have not been advised of, are clean so far as
the various intelligence agencies are concerned.
Mr. MuNDT. Is it your feeling then that the fifteen thousand-and-
some-odd Japanese which you now have in your camp have all been
adequately investigated by the F. B. I. in Washington and cleared
unless you were notified they were on the stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. I would assume that they have gone through the
complete investigation in Washington. Just exactly what the pro-
cedure is there, why
Mr. MuNDT. You are not sure whether the F. B. I, investigates
them or not at that end, are you?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I am not; although any file that the F. B. I. has
on an individual, I understand is submitted to the W. R. A. which
would — it would make the difference of whether the file was sent
over to the F. B. I. for investigation or whether the F. B. I. sent their
information over and the decision was made there in the W. R. A.
office.
Now, as to the exact teclinique of how that is handled, the pro-
cedure, I wouldn't say.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you think the F. B. I. has an individual
file on each one of those 17,000 Japanese in the camp at Boston?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether they have a file on each iTidi-
vidual or not.
Mr. Eberharter. You don't think there is any possibility that
they have investigated each individual of those 17,000*?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know how complete their file was prior to
the evacuation of them.
Mr. Eberharter. You don't think that they have investigated
17,000 individuals since the evacuation?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't think they have come out on the project
and investigated each individual. I don't know of them having
done that.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, wjiat you really think, as I get it, is that
they have compiled, perhaps, a file from the questionnaires that the
Japanese voluntarily made out. Is that what you think the F. B. I.
has done?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, I couldn't say as to that — just what their pro-
cedure is there. Those forms were submitted to Washington in
triplicate, I believe.
Mr. Eberharter. You don't even know whether the W. R. A.
submitted those questionnaires to the F. B. I., do you?
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8885
Mr. Gelvin. No; other than I have been told that this jomt board
that I mentioned awhile ao;o of the various representatives, which
passes on each individual — has passed on each individual question-
naire.
Mr. Eberharter. Have you ever received a communication from
that so-ctdled joint board?
Mr. Gelvin. No. They wouldn't communicate directly with us.
They would communicate directly with the main office in Washing-
ton— the W. R. A. office in Washington, and any communication
that we would receive would come directl}^ from the W^. R. A. office
to us.
Mr. Eberharter. Did any statement that you received from them
make a statement to the effect that the joint board was issuing an
order with respect to any individual?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I have never seen any correspondence to that
effect.
Mr. Eberharter. Has your superior in Washington told you that
the joint board acts on the individual cases?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we were told at the time of Mr. Myer's last visit
to the project that
Mr. Eberharter. W'hen was that?
Mr. Geivin. That was in April, I believe it was.
Air-. Eberharter. -In the spring?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. The joint board had been set up, and also
when I was in Washington in January we were having a conference
there with the military authorities, at that time, in preparation for
handling this registration. I was told at that time that there was to
be such a board established.
Mr. Eberharter. Just being established then?
Mr. Gelvin. Just being established ; yes.
Mr. Eberharter. But that never appeared in any communication
that you received at the Poston center or that was delivered to you
officially?
Mr. Gelvin. No; not that I have seen in the way of a communica-
tion. That could have come to Mr. Head, though, and I would not
have seen it.
Mr. Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. Gelvin. So I would hesitate to say it hasn'-t because it might
have come and I wouldn't have seen it.
Mr. Mundt. a little wiiile ago, in speaking about this Japanese
organization, Mr. Steedman asked you whether it was subversive or
not and you said you didn't know what the organization was, but that
you got your list of subversive Japanese organizations from the Wash-
ington office. Is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. I said that if we received any information concerning
subversive organizations it would come from the Washington office.
Mr. Mundt. Have you received any list of organizations from the
Washington office of such subversive Japanese outfits?
Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Mundt. How do you determine then, w^hen you look at the
questionnaire after a man makes application for release and says:
"I belong to XYZ organization," how do you determme whether
or not that is a subversive organization?
Mr. Gelvin. WqW, we don't determine that there. These ques-
tionnaires that I mentioned have all been submitted to Washington
8886 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
and the determination has been made there. If they see something
in the questionnaire that they feel a man should not be released
because of, why, we are advised to put that individual on the stop list.
Mr. MuNDT. But you are not advised as to the reason why he is
on the stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. No, no; we are not. We probably could get the
reasons by writing for a detailed statement.
Mr. MuNDT. It may be, so far as you know, either because he
asked to be repatriated or because he belongs to a subversive organi-
zation or because he is out of balance mentally. You have no way of
knowing what the reason is for the Washington office putting him on
the stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, we have the list of those who applied for
repatriation, so we would know whether it was that or not. How-
ever, it could be one of probably several things that we might not
know about.
I might just add a point that this whole development has been so
rapid since its inception — 'the whole mception of the W. R. A. has
been so rapid — -that many of the details of the relationship between
the projects and the Washington office have not been completely
worked out. On so many things it is necessary that we depend on
what information we get from the Washington office, and as yet it
hasn't been completely worked out — -the relationship between the
two.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you ever reject any applications for release on
information which you have in your own files without waiting for the
Washington office to send you a stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; we have placed all of the people on the stop list
who did not give an unqualified affirmative answer to the loyalty
question that was contained in this questionnaire. We have auto-
matically placed all of the people on the stop list who have applied for
repatriation.
There have been a few mdividuals who have violated regulations or
laws whom we placed on the stop list, so we have established or placed
quite a number of names on the stop list without prior advice from
Washington, and the names we get from Washington now more or
less supplement the names that we have on the stop list at the present
time.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you released any of those folks who have been
on your stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. MuNDT. None of those have been released?
Mr. Gelvin. Those that have been on our stop list? No; we
haven't released them.
Mr. CosTELLO. You made one statement that those who had failed
to answer the loyalty question affirmatively are put on the stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello. Is there any check made on those who did answer
the question in the proper manner as to whether they really meant
what they said when they said they would be loyal to this country?
Mr. Gelvin. No. We have had no way of checking that at the
project. We would have to depend on whatever checking was done in
Washington.
TUSr-AMERICAN PROPAGAISTDA ACn\7TIES 8887
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, the unfavorable answer to question
No. 28 is an indication a person would be disloyal and therefore you
put him on the stop list?
Afr. Gelvix. Well, we have put him on the stop list until something
can be worked out to determine whether he is dislo3^al or not.
The reason I mention that is because we have some 17- or 18-year-
old boys, for instance, who said, "No" to question 28.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you remember the phrasing of that question?
Mr. SiEEDMAN. I have it here.
jMr. Gelvin. Question 28.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am reading from the form entitled:
"War Relocation Authority application for leave clearance" and the
so-called question 28 is as follows:
Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of America and
foreswear any form of allegiance or obedience to the Japanese Emperor or any
other foreign government, power or organization?
Mr. Steedman. Is that question 28?
Mr. Gelvin. That is the same question.
Mr. Steedman. That is the original question, isn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. That is the same question that is on the Selective
Service f^rm.
Mr. Steedman. That is right, but didn't you modify the question
later on so the Japanese would sign it?
Mr. Gelvin. That was modified, yes; for the aliens.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to read into the record the modifica-
tion of that question. As I understand it the question was modified
in order to get the Japanese to sign the questionnaire, is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. No; it was modified before the questionnaire was ever
submitted to the Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Why was it modified?
(No answer.)
\lr. Steedman. After this form was prepared, there must have been
some reason for the modification, after they had gone to the trouble
and expense of printing this form and issuing it.
Mr. Gelvin. I assume that the W. R. A. felt that that wasn't a
fair question to ask an alien whom they were not prepared — whom the
United States was not prepared to give citizenship to.
Mr. Steedman. Well, was the modification which I am about to read
into the record at this point, made before the questionnaires were
given to the Japanese to fill out?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Was it attached as a rider?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; it was a mimeographed slip pasted on the
questionnaire.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to read the modification into the
record:
I swear to abide by the laws of the United States and to take no action which
would in any way interfere with the war eiffort of the United States.
Is that the modification?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In other words the Japanese agreed to sign the
modified statement which states they would agree to abide by the
laws of the United States; is that correct?
8888 UN-AMEEICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. That was the form submitted to the Japanese aliens.
Mr. Steedman. Ahens?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you have questionnaires then?
Mr. Gelvin. (No response)
Mr. CoSTELLO. Just the one question was different, is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. There were two different questionnaires.
There was one questionnaire which was 304-A, which we speak of,
which was the sek>ctive -service form, which all of the male citizens
above 18 years old or above 17 years old — that is 17 and above, filled
out. This form here is a W. R. A. form, Form 126 revised, which was
used for the aliens, and the female citizens, and the modified question
was used for the aliens, so actually we had three different forms.
Mr. Steedman. How many answered "No" to question 28 at
Poston Center?
Mr. Gelvin. You mean in all the classes — women and otherwise?
Mr. Steedman. Well, you just said that question 28 was only sub-
mitted to the Nisei males?
Mr. Gelvin. No; that same questionnaire — this same question
was contained in both of the forms, the 304-A and this form here.
Mr. Steedman. Yes?
Mr. Gelvin. And the female citizens and the male citizens were
the only ones that were asked that question.
Mr. Steedman. In other words only the Nisei were requested to
answer question 28 and to swear allegiance to the United States?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. How many Nisei are there at the Poston center
who answered "No" to question 28?
Mr. Gelvin. We had about 450.
Mr. Steedman. Those were citizens?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Male and female?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. Now, just let me go one step
further. There were about 630 who did not give an unqualified
affirmative answer to that question, but who modified it. The
difference between 450 and 630 would be modifications of the question.
For instance, they might say — might have written on there "I am
neutral," but we considered that as far as the stop list was concerned;
that was the same as a "no" answer because they did not give an
unqualified "yes."
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, after you printed the original
form you received word from the Japanese aliens that they would
refuse to sign question 28 and you made this rider up with the modified
question?
Mr. Gelvin. We were advised by the Washington office to make
the change.
Mr. Steedman. But didn't the W^ashington office receive that in-
formation from the Japanese?
Mr, Gelvin. They may have— I don't know.
Mr. vSteedman. You haven't that information?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. The forms that came to you from Washington did
not have the rider on them?
Mr. Gelvin. No; we were advised to place the rider on them.
UN-AJMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEIS 8889
Mr. CosTELLO. Are those statements sworn to by the Japanese or
merely signed by them?
Mr. Gelvin, They are merely signed by them.
Mr. CosTELLO. There is no oath taken at the time of filling them
out?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
I^Ir. MuNDT. Are they advised before they sign them as to your
reason for asking these questions? Do they know they will go on
the stop list if they say "No" to that question?
Mr. Gelvin. No; they didn't, know it before they signed it.
Mr. MuNDT. They did not know it had anything to do with the
possibility of their release?
Mr. Gelvin. They know it now. They didn't know it unless they
might have guessed that it would keep them from going out. In fact
we know nothing was said beforehand because we were very much
surprised that we had as many answer "No" as did. We thought
there would be only isolated cases, but there were many more than
we anticipated.
Mr. CosTELLO. We will take a recess for 5 minutes.
(Thereupon a short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order and Mr. Steedman,
you may proceed with your questioning.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that 630 Nisei answered "No"
on question 28; is that correct?
Air. Gelvin. No, no.
Mr. Steedman. Or qualified their answers?
Mr. Gelvin. Qualified their answers, that is right.
Mr. Steedman. How many Nisei do you have at the Poston center?
Mr. Gelvin. Of all ages about 11,000, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. 11,000 Nisei?
Mr. Gelvin. That w^ould include babies and on up.
Mr. Steedman. Alost of the Nisei are under 30 years of age, isn't
that true?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you believe that the Japanese gave frank
answers on these questionnaires that you refer to?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether they did or not.
Mr. Costello. You say there are about 11,000 Nisei in the camp.
That would include all ages?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. But all of them, of course, were not asked to sign
questionnahes. I should imagine a lar^e percentage of that number
was under 17 years of age.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; all those who were 17 years of age on February
1, 1943, or over, were given questionnaires.
Mr. Costello. They were given questionnaires to fill in?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello. How many of those were there?
Mr. Gelvin. Of the males there were, I think, about 3,600 who
were registered. I don't have a break-down on the females because
the females and the aliens registered togeiher. That is the female
citizens and the aliens registered at the same time.
Mr. Costello. Your figure of 630 would refer to both male and
female answering that question?
8890 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many actuall}^ answered question 28?
Mr. Gelvin. We registered right close to between— 11,500, I
believe, was the total number that registered and
Mr. Steedman. That is including Issei and Nisei?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that is including everybody.
Mr. Steedman. How many Nisei answered?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, there were no — well, that is the figure I just
gave to the chairman, that there were about 3,600 of the male citizens
and I do not have a break-down with me of the number — of the
difference between the females, female citizens and the aliens. You
would have to have that break-down before you could establish the
total Nisei, but I don't have that figure with me.
Mr. Steedman. Do you believe a dangerous Japanese would hesi-
tate to answer "Yes" to question 28 for the purpose of serving his
own purpose?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think you can place any confidence or
reliance on these questionnaires?
Mr. Gelvin. That I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Would you place any reliance on the questionnaires?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I believe I woidd.
Mr. Steedman. In other words, if you asked a Japanese citizen,
"Are you loyal" and he said, "Yes," you would be willing to take his
word for it?
Mr. Gelvin. Not m all cases; the way you ask the question there is
whether I would just abolish the questionnaire. The ansiwer is for
all of them.
Mr. Costello. Let me ask a question at that point about the real
purpose or benefit of these questionnaires. It does serve as a means
of having the Japanese incriminate themselves as to their disloyalty
if they answer these questions in the negative; isn't that correct?
Air. Gelvin. Yes, sir; it is a basis for gathering information on
each individual.
l\Ir. Costello. Point out those Japanese who only do not want to
be loyal but don't mmd telling you so?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello. But it would not in any way tend to prove that the
remaining Japanese are loyal or want to be loyal and will be loyal.
You can't determine anything from the questionnau'es, can you?
Mr. Gelvin. I think it gives a basis of considerable information for
investigating agencies or intelligence agencies to study.
For instance there are questions as to their education, whether it
was in this country or in Japan; how much of it was in Japan or how
much in this country; the number of trips they made back to Japan
and the number of relatives that they have in Japan, and so forth.
Mr. CosiELLO. It sort of gives you a card index of each Japanese —
■ some of his personal history data?
Mr. Gelvin. That is true; yes.
Mr. Costello. I judge from your remarks or the information that
you have, apparently, there is no thorough check-up as to the accuracy
of the answers to those questions, and of course when a Jap is about to
be released from the camp no thorough investigation of the activities
of that Jap prior to his coming to the camp was made?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8891
Mr. Gelvin. No; it is assumed that any prior information that
any of the intelli<rence agencies would have, has been submitted to
the W. K. A. and they can use that as a basis for determining whether
an indi\ idiial shouUl be rekvased or not.
We do not make any — on the project we do not make any past
investigation or investigation of his past.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is, the officials of the camps themselves do
not make any investigation?
Mr. Gelvin. We have no facilities for that.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe that the W. R. A. in Washington
do make a thorough check into the background of the evacuees,
through the Army Intelligence or Navy Intelligence and the F. B. I.?
Mr. Gelvin. That is a question you w^ould have to ask Mr. Myers,
the Director.
Mr. CosTELLO. You have no information as to the nature of that
investigation?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
]Mr. CosTELLO. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. Air. Chaii-man, I would like to ask Mr. Gelvin
some questions off the record.
(Off the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Have any of these people who have been reporting
to the.F. B. I. been beaten up by Japanese thugs in the camp?
Mr. CosTELLO. Are you ready to go back on the record so far as
the press is concerned?
\li\ Steedman. Yes ; I will go on the record now.
Mr. Gelvin. We have had two or three beatings. Whether or not
they were reporting to the F. B. I., I don't know. One of them
declared openly that he had worked for the F. B. I. and he waved a
Government check around one day and stated that it was from the
Department of Justice and he got clipped in a couple of days.
Mr. Steedman. T\Tio was he?
Mr. Gelvin. Kay Nishamura.
Mr. Steedman. tMien did that happen?
Mr. Gelvin. That was last November, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. Was that attack investigated by the project
directly?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you determine who the people were that beat
him up?
Mr. Gelvin. No; we have never found out for sure who beat him
up.
Mr. Steedman. You were not able to secure any witnesses?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Air. Steedman. Did the party that was assaulted know who beat
him up?
Mr. Gelvin. He claims he doesn't know. He said he didn't know.
Mr. Steedman. Was he attacked in a dark place?
Mr. Gelvin. He was attacked right in his apartment - in his room.
Mr. Steedman. At night?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Was he seriously injured?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; he was pretty badly beated up. He was in the
hospital a couple of weeks, I think.
8892 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Is he still at Poston Center?
Mr. Gelvin. No; he is in Salt Lake City.
Mr. Steedman. Evacuated from the center by the center manage-
ment?
Mr. Gelvin. He was given an indefinite leave and went to Salt
Lake.
Mr. Steedman. Was his life threatened if he stayed at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, I don't know whether it would have been or
not.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you verify the fact that this was a check he had
received from the F. B. L that he was waving around?
Mr. Gelvin. No; that came back to me later from various ones
who thought it was a foolish stunt for him to pull.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever talk to him about it and ask him whether
he waved such a check or had such a check?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Head did. I didn't talk to him.
Mr. MuNDT. \Miat did Mr. Head find out?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't Icnow; he didn't tell me about it.
Mr. Steedman. It is rather unhealthy to cooperate with the F. B. I.
at Poston, is .it not, having reference to the Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether it is or not.
Mr. Steedman. How many others have been beaten up there for
cooperating with the authorities?
Mr. Gelvin, We have had, I believe, three beatings, but as to
whether those were beatings because they were cooperating with the
authorities or not, I don't konw.
I imderstand that the explanation that has come to me was that it
was a carry-over from a feud that existed prior to evacuation.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the beating up of Saburo Kido?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Who is he?
Mr. Gelvin. He was the president of the J. A. C. L. — Japanese-
American Citizens League.
Mr. Steedman. And the Japanese- American Citizens League had
been cooperating with the F. B. I. and other Government authorities?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did Kido have a reputation for cooperating with
the Government authorities?
Mr. Gelvin. We felt that he was cooperating with us — with the
administration.
Mr. Steedman. Was he assailed and beaten by a gang of thugs
who entered his apartment at night?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And was he hospitalized?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. SteedmxVN. Was he badly beaten?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, he wasn't nearly as badly beaten as Nishamura.
It wasn't serious, I don't believe, although he was hospitalized.
Mr. Steedman. Did the project director investigate that case? •
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. What happened?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, the people who beat him up were caught and
given prison sentences.
Mr. Steedman. Thev were tried?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8893
Air. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Wore they tried in Park(>r?
Mr. Gelvin. No; they were turned over to the Yuma County au-
thorities and tried in the State court.
Mr. Steedman. Where?
Mr. Gelvin. At Phoenix.
Air. Steedman. Are they now serving a prison term?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. That is two instances of beatings
Mr. Ererhakter. You were able to get witnesses in that case?
Air. Gelvin. AVell, no, they didn't get witnesses. The boys con-
fessed that did it. The Japanese police caught them or had a tip
that they were going to do this and they were waiting for them and
caught them and they confessed to it.
Mr. Mundt. In the course of the trial did they give'any reason as
to wlty they were beating Kido up?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether they did or not. I wasn't at
the trial and I have no record of the trial.
Mr. Eberharter. Don't you think that was a matter of impor-
tance? Don't you feel you should have a transcript of the trial and
the proceedings there?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think it would be good.
Mr. Eberharter. In other words neither the director nor you
know why this beating took place?
Mr. Gelvin. Unless the director satisfied himself through the
questioning. I was away from the project at the tune.
Mr. Eberharter. You think the director might know about it?
Mr. Gelvin. I think that he would know; yes.
Mr. Mundt. Where is Kido now?
Mr. Gelvin. He is in Salt Lake City. That is where the national
offices of this J. A. C. L. organization are located.
Air. AIuNDT. He is on indefinite leave?
Air. Gelvin. Yes.
Air. Costello. Is he working for the J. A. C. L.?
Air. Gelvin. I believe he is.
Air. Costello. Employed and paid by them?
Air. Gelvin. Yes.
Air. Steedman. Wlio is the other one that was beaten up?
Air. Gelvin. I can't give you his name. He was a young fellow
working on the fire department. I don't believe he was ever — ^he might
have been hospitalized for a day or two, but it wasn't a serious beating.
Air. Steedman. Was he cooperating with the F. B. I.?
Air. Gelvin. I don't know whether he was or not.
Air. Steedman. Or the camp authorities?
Air. Gelvin. Well, he was cooperating to the extent that he was
working. He wasn't a well-known figure or anj^thing like that. That
is, I mean, we had no occasion to know him directly as we had the
others.
Air. Steedman. Did you investigate that case?
Air. Gelvin. Yes.
Air. Steedman. Did you find that he was beaten up because he was
cooperating with the camp officials?
Air. Gelvin. No. We couldn't find out any reason at all. He
wouldn't talk at all. He wouldn't give us any information.
62026 — 4:'.— vol. ir. 5
8894 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Steedman. Was he beaten up by a gang?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think so.
Mr. Steedman. The same type of beatings as administered to the
other two Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Has anyone been brought to justice for the last
beating that you mentioned?
Mr. Gelvin. This one of this young fellow?
Mr. Steedman. The last one; yes; the one you don't recall the
name of the party who was assailed?
Mr. Gelvin. No; there hasn't. We have never been able to get
any information as to who did beat him.
Mr. Steedman. What term do the Japanese have for another
Japanese who informs the authorities or the F. B. I. of things going on
in the center?
Mr. Gelvin. Oh, they — I see a lady present over there. I wouldn't
want to divulge the term but "yellow dogs" and "rats" and "in-
formers."
Mr. Steedman. They call them dogs, don't they?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Anyone who cooperates with the officials to the
extent of giving them information are called dogs?
Mr. Gelvin. Anyone that they consider in the class of a stool-
pigeon, as we refer to them.
Mr. Steedman. But aren't you dependent upon those people, who
are patriotic enough to give you information, in order to know what is
going on inside the camp?
iv r. Gelvin. Yes; we do depend upon them.
Mr. Steedman. You do depend upon, them for intelligence as to
what is going on?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. We depend upon them to quite a large extent.
Mr. Steedman. Have you made any preparations to protect these
people who are cooperating with you now?
Mr. Gelvin. It hasn't seemed necessary since the last beating we
had because the people got pretty much disturbed about it and they
are, I think, taking the matters into their own hands to keep from
having a recurrence of those things, because the general bulk of the
population there, the majority of them, do not approve of such methods
as was used by some of them, whom we think were Kibei, and we feel
they have straightened the situation out pretty well themselves.
Mr. Steedman. The Kibei make up the gangsters or the Ronin
groups, don't they?
Mr. Gelvin. Those that we have had trouble with, yes, have been
mostly Kibei.
Mr. Steedman. Has a fence been built around the Boston Center
since you arrived?
Mr. Gelvin. The United States engineers built a fence on three
sides of the project.
Mr. Steedman. When was it built?
Air. Gelvin. It was completed along in the winter sometime.
Mr. Steedman. The winter of 1942?
Mr. Gelvin. This past winter.
Mr. Steedman. 1942-43?
UK-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8895
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think along in November or December.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what that fence cost?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I haven't any idea. It is a three-wire fence.
Mr. Steedman. Was a fence built around Camp No. 3?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; there .was, but it was later changed.
Mr. Steedman. The fence was later changed?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Was there a fence built around Camp No. 3?
Mr. Gelvin. Preparations have been started to build a fence
around Camp No. 2 but never completed.
Mr. Steedman. The fence was not completed around Camp No. 2?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese object to the fence around Camp
No. 2? And the proposed fence to be built around Camp No. 2?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they objected to it very much.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese tear down the fence around
Camp No. 3?
Mr. Gelvin. No; they didn't tear it down.
Mr. Steedman. Well, what happened?
Mr. Gelvin. The engineers received orders to change the location
of the fence and the contractor tore it down and used it to rebuild the
other fence, or build the other fence.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese inside the camp help the con-
tractor in tearing down the fence?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't think so — not that I know of.
Mr. Steedman. Were you there when the fence was being torn
down?
Mr. Gelvin. I was on the project; yes. I wasn't right at the spot
as the contractors took it down.
Mr. SteeDxMan. Did you receive reports that the Japanese were
tearing the fences down piece by piece?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I hadn't received any reports they were tearing
it down. I received some reports that they had pulled the staples out
of some of the fence and laid it on the ground so you could cross it with
tractors that were leveling some land there at the time, but I don't
know of any destruction of the materials.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall whether or not Miss Findley, of the
social welfare department at Poston Center, backed up the Japanese
in their objection to the fence?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, yes; I think she was in agreement with them.
She thought the fence should be changed.
Mr. Steedman. She stated at an open meeting that she did not
think they should build a fence around the camp; is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. She may have said that at open meetings. I didn't
hear it. I would guess that she probably did.
Mr. Steedman. Did Dr. Powell also have the same attitude toward
the fence that Miss Findley had?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. He was in disagreement with the location of the
fence.
Mr. Steedman. Was the fence built for security reasons?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether it was or not. It wasn't a
man-tight fence that was built.
Mr. Steedm.\n. \\ ell, because of the fact that the Japanese dis-
approved of the fence it was necessary to remove it, is that right?
8896 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. Well, I think that could not be confined entirely to
the Japanese. The War Relocation Authority was objecting to the
location of the fence also.
Mr. Steedman. Was that Mr. Head?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether Mr. Head took any action in
the matter or not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was the objection to the location of the fence in
relation to the camp or was it an objection to having a fence around
the camp at all?
Mr. Gelvin. No, no. There was no objection to having a fence
around the camp. It was the location of the fence. It was placed
right against the buildings and it was difficult for the development
work that we wanted to do there. There were administrative
problems there that made it difficult, so later the fence was built to
take in all of the area around the three camps rather than a tight fence
around the three individual camps.
Mr. MuNDT. What was the purpose of the fence? What were
they fencmg in or fencing out?
Mr. Gelvin. (No answer.)
Mr. MuNDT. You say it wasn't a "man-tight fence."
Mr. Gelvin. Well, the fence wasn't a man-tight fence and I
couldn't say what was the definite purpose other than probably to
designate the area of the Center itself.
Mr. MuNDT. There was no stock that they were fencing in or out?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, I don't think the engineers would have fenced
against stock. Yes; there is stock there but I don't think it was put
there for that purpose.
Mr. MuNDT. Just as a marker of the camp site?
Mr. Gelvin. I think so.
Mr. MuNDT. And you say it was a 3-strand fence?
Mr. Gelvin. There are three strands in the present fence; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was that true also of the original fence?
Mr. Gelvin. No; the original fence had four or five strands.
Mr. MuNDT. That is a lot of wire just for a marker — a four or five
strand fence. That was ordered built by the Army?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And ordered out by the War Relocation Authority?
Mr. Gelvin. No; it would have to be ordered out tlirough higher
channels to the Army engineers. I assumed their orders came from
the Army — Western Defense Command.
. Mr. Steedman. Isn't this what happened: Didn't the Japanese
notify the project director that they were tearing the fence down and
that they would appreciate it if the contractor would help them tear
the fence down?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, 1 don't believe they notified the project director
of that.
Mr. Steedman. Have you any reports in your files indicating that
the Japanese were tearing the fence down?
Mr. Gelvin. Wc might have. I wouldn't say that we haven't, but
I don't recall off-hand of seeing any reports to that effect.
Mr. Steedman. How much money did it cost to tear the original
fence down and build the second fence?
Mr. Gelvin. Gosh, I don't have any idea.
Mr. Steedman. It was ciuite a sum of money, was it not?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8897
Mr. Gelvin. Well, there was quite a lot of fence involved. Prob-
ably (lid.
ih\ Steedman. Would you say it cost $100,000?
Mr. Gelvin. There was probably 15 miles of fence — there is now.
Mr. Steedman. At a cost of around $100,000?
Mr. Gelvin. I wouldn't make any statement on that.
Mr. MuNDT. 1 beliej-e 3'ou did state that you saw the fence that
the Japanese had taken down — the fence from which the Japanese
had taken the staples so they could drive trucks over it?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; so they could drive small trucks — small tractors
over it in leveling the land.
Mr. MuNDT. You saw that yourself?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you see several instances of that?
Mr. Gelvin. No; just one place in the camp there where they
were leveling.
Mr. MuNDT. And when they brought the tractor back, did they put
the staples back in the fence and put the wire up against the posts?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. What happened to the fence posts from the
original fence?
Sir. Gelvin. Thej' were taken up and reset for the new fence.
Mr. Steedman. Were any of the original posts burned?
Air. Gelvin. Not that I know of.
Mr. Steedman. Have you any reports to that effect? •
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I recall.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that had the Japanese not objected
to the fence, the War Relocation Authority would have ordered it
taken down? ,
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. But the original causation was the objection of the
Japanese to the fence, isn't that right?
Mr. Gelvin. It might have been.
Mr. Steedman. Have you received any rep.orts that the Japanese
were stealing Government property at the Poston Center?
Mr. Gelvin. I haven't received any reports that I can recall. I
believe you asked me that question this morning.
Mr. Steedman. I asked you that question in connection with the
warehouses. I am talking now about property, generally, in con-
nection with the project.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. It has been reported that they have taken
some lumber in several instances. I would like to correct that
denial that I made this morning.
Mr. Steedman. The question I asked you this morning was with
reference to the warehouses.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. But now I am asking you about the project
properly in general.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; it has been reported that some lumber has been
taken.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much lumber has been stolen?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I couldn't say.
Mr. Steedman. You don't recall anything else that has been stolen?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't recall any tiling right at the moment.
8898 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. What was the nature of the himber that was
stolen? Was it short ends or planldns; or fencing or what?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, it would be various kinds of lumber that they
had taken home to try to improve their quarters.
Mr. CosTELLO. Lumber that they took was used for improving
their own living quarters?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. And used around their barracks?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. It wasn't stolen for the purpose of selling it outside
of the camp or something of that sort?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have there been any riots at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Have there been any strikes?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. When did the strike or strikes occur?
Mr. Gelvin. November IS, 1942.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please tell the committee just what
happened?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Head and I had left the project to go to Salt
Lake City to attend a meeting called by Director Myer, While
we were gone — in fact the day we left the people went on a strike in
unit No. 1 of the project.
The strike lasted for about 6 or 7 days in which all work was stopped
with the exception of the essential services, such as the mess-hall
workers and firemen and policemen and hos])ital crews.
The people all gathered together in front of the police station. They
did not barricade themselves inside of the police station as some
reports have had it.
It is difficult to say exactly what the cause of the strike was. It
might have ])een in protest against the administration. We also had
a fellow in jail who had been picked up because the internal security
ofRcer thought that he had participated in one of these previous beat-
ings. That was given as the reason for the strike.
We don't think that that was the reason. We think that was the
excuse for the strike. We think the reasons were many because very
few of the people seemed to know what they were striking about.
They were well organized. That is, some of the strike leaders had
organized the thing pretty well.
Mr. MuNDT. How many people were on strike?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, at that time we had about 9,000 people in unit
No. 1 and the only work that was going on was as I mentioned, just
the essential services. All the other people who were working or had
been working quit.
Mr. Mundt. Pretty much of the entire 9,000 were on strike or in
sympathy with the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. They were participating in the strike. Of course
many have said that they were opposed to it but were forced to partici-
pate in it. How true that is, I have no way of knowing.
We felt that it was due largely to a rather boiling over point — that
they had reached a boiling point as an aftermath of the evacuation.
Mr. Head and I, as quick as word could be gotten to us, returned
immediately to the project.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8899
Mr. Steedman. "\Miat date did you return to the project?
Mr. Gelvix. AVe left on Wednesday and returned Saturday night.
Mr. Steedman. But the strike started November 18. Do you
recall the date you returned to the project?
Mr. Gelvin. It was Saturday when we returned.
l\fr. Steedman. That would be November 21; the riot or strike
had been going on then for 4 days before you returned?
Mr. Gelvin. 18, 19, 20, 21— about tliree days and a half. It
started after we left.
Mr. Steedman. Did the strike spread to units 2 and 3?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. There were no demonstrations in units 2 and 3?
Mr. Gelvin. No. And Air. Head met with the committee which
had been selected by the people, I believe, on Monday — Monday
afternoon, and after, I think, two meetings, why, the whole thing
was settled pretty well and the people went back to work starting
the 25th, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. The strike continued from November 18 to Novem-
ber 25?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Who was in charge of the project while the strike
was in progress?
Air. Gelvin. Mr. John Evans.
Mr. Steedman. AMiere is he now?
Mr. Gelvin. He is in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Steedman. What was his title at the time of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. He was the unit administrator in camp No. 1.
Mr. Steedman. What is his present position in Vv^asliington?
Mr. Gelvin. He is Director of the Alaska Division, in the Division
of Territories and Island Possessions.
Mr. Steedman. That is a division within the Department of the
Interior, isn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Will you give us Mr. Evans' title again?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe that his title is Director of the Alaska Di-
vision of the Division of Territories and Island Possessions of the
Department of the Interior.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you know what salary that position carries?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. During the strike were the military police called
into the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. \Miat company of military police are located at
Poston Center?
Mr. Gelvin. The Tlu-ee hundred and Twenty-third Military Police
Company.
Mr. Steedman. TSTio is the officer in charge of that company of
militaiy police?
Mr. Gelvin. At the present time?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Gelvin. Captain Holm.
Mr. Steedman. Who was the officer in charge of that company of
militar}'- police at the time of the strike?
8900 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin, Lieutenant Young, I believe. Their captain had
just recently been transferred east and they hadn't received a new-
commanding officer and during the time he was gone Lieutenant
Young, I believe, was the commanding officer.
Mr. Steedman. Lieutenant Young was in actual command from
the period of November 18 through November 25?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. That is during the duration of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know about Sunday which would have been
November 22. Another military police company was brought in from
Boulder City with Major Dykes, who is commandmg officer of that
area of military police, and he assumed command at the time when
he came in.
Mr. Steedman. Who ordered the additional company of military
police to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I assume that was ordered from the western defense
command.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Head requested
additional companies of police?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't believe he did. It might have been
Lieutenant Young who made the request. I don't know. That was
an Army function and not a W. R. A. function.
Mr. Steedman. Were you in conference with Lieutenant Young
during the strike after you and Mr. Head returned?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, He w^as in the meeting with Mr. Head and I.
"Mr. Steedman. Every day?
Mr. Gelvin. Either Lieutenant Young or Major Dykes was meet-
ing with us regularly.
Mr. Steedman. Was there a Captain Daugherty on the scene at
the time of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No. Captain Daugherty w^as the commanding officer
that had been transferred east.
Mr. Steedman. Captain Daugherty w^asn't actually on the scene
at the time of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Did the military police have authority to go into,
the center at the time of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Would it have been necessary for the camp officials
to have requested the military police to enter the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And the responsibility of requesting the military
police to enter the center was on the project director?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. There are only two conditions under which
the project director can request the military police to come into the
camp, and that is for a fire which has gotten out of control or a riot.
Mr. Steedman. Or a riot?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did the project director determine.that there wasn't
a riot at the Poston Center between November 18 and November 25,
.1942?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right. There was no indication of violence;
no damage done so he didn't think it necessary to call the military
police in.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8901
Mr. MuNDT. Was there any destruction of property during that
strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Any tlii-owing away of food or wasting of food?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that we know of.
^^r. MuNDT. It was just sort of a sit-down strike; just refused to
work?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Were there any inflammatory meetings of any kind?
Mr. Gelvin. They were meeting all the time. It was just one big
meeting, but it was ah in an orderly manner. I mean there wasn't any
gangs out of control or anything like that.
yir. Steedman. Was the American flag lowered during the course
of this strike?
Mr. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge; no.
Mr. Stef.dman. Not while you were there?
Mr. Gelvin. No. Now, we have an American flag at the office
that wasn't disturbed at all.
Mr. Steedman. Is there a flagpole at the admmistration building
in unit No. 1?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the flag on the ad-
ministration building at miit No. 1 was lowered during the course of
the strike?
Air. Gelvin. No; it wasn't.
Mr. STEED^L\x. Do you know of your own knowledge it was not?
Mr. Gelvin. I would swear to that, I believe, because if that had
been lowered we would have certainly been informed of it when we
came back.
It was not lowered while we were there and if it had been lowered
prior to our coming back, why, I am sure we would have been notified.
Mr. Steedman. There were no reports submitted to the efl'ect that
the American flag had been lowered during the days of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And no reports to indicate any such thing?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I have ever seen.
Mr. Mundt. Was a Japanese flag raised?
Mr. Gelvin. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Mundt. Was a Japanese flag raised over their quarters?
Mr. Gelvin. No, no, there was not. I might further add that an
officer came to the project from the western defense command from
San Francisco, a Captain McFadden, who stayed on the project for
the purpose of assembling a complete report on the strike.
He stayed there until after the strike was settled and he inter-
viewed some of the personnel. He interviewed many of the Japanese
and prepared his report from that, and I assume that a copy of that
report would be made availa])]c tbrough that office if you care to
have it.
Mr. Steedman. Did Colonel Main of the United States Army
also make an investigation of the riot or strike?
Mr. Gelvin. Colonel Main?
Mr. Steedman. Yes; M-a-i-n.
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of.
Mr. Mundt. Do you know^ Colonel Main?
8902 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Air. Gelvin. No, I don't.
Mr. MuNDT. So far as you know he was never at the camp at all?
Mr. Gklvin. So far as I know he wasn't.
Mr. Steedman. Were any threats made against the Caucasian
personnel by the Japanese during the course of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think there was a threat made against our
transportation and supply officer.
Mr. Steedman. What was his name?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Townsend.
Mr. Steedman. What was the nature of the threat?
Mr. Gelvin. He told me afterward that he went down and at-
tempted to drive a car through the crowd in front of the jail and
they threatened him if he didn't get out of there and go back. They
said something might happen to him.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese cover the license plates of the
truck and other motor vehicles also under their control during the
course of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't think so.
Mr. Steedman. Isn't it a matter of fact
Mr. Gelvin. The reason I don't think they did was because I was
down among the strikers. I walked tlu'ough there.
Mr. Steedman. But that was after you returned to the camp from
your trip to Salt Lake City?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. But you cannot testify of your own knowledge to
anything that happened the fu-st three and a half days of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Therefore, anything that you testify as happening
at the center in the first three and a half days of the strike is hearsay?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct, yes.
Mr. Steedman. Now, as a matter of fact didn't you cancel the
lease on some of the Japanese motor equipment inside the camp
because of the fact you were not able to control this equipment during
the course of the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. We may have but I don't know that was the case.
Mr. Steedman. But you did have considerable trouble in controlling
the motor equipment during the strike, didn't you?
Mr. Gelvin. We did the first day or two. Mr. Townsend at-
tempted to get the equipment together. He didn't have very much
success, and Air. Empie sent another one of his men out and informed
the police to round up the equipment and bring it in, and they did.
Mr. Steedman. How long was Mr. Townsend employed at Boston?
Mr. Gelvin. I think about 2 or 3 months.
Mr. Steedman. \'V^iat was his title there?
Mr. Gelvin. Transportation and supply officer.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat was his salary, do you know?
Mr. Gelvin. $3,800, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. Who was the transportation aijd supply officer that
preceded Mr. Townsend?
Mr. Gelvin. A man by the name of Roy Botter.
Air. Steedman. And what was his salary?
Mr. Gelvin. I beheve it was $3,500.
Mr. Steedman. Did he resign his position at the Boston Center?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8603
Mr. Gelvin. He left. He was transferred from Poston to the
project up in Utah.
Mr. Steedman. Why?
Mr. Gelvin. He was offered a transfer and he took it because that
position up there, I think, paid $3,800 and he was getting $3,500
wlu^re he was at.
Mr. Steedman. When you employed Mr. Townsend you agreed to
give hini a sahiry of $3,800, I beheve you said?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. At that time we were able to get^ — you see,
at that time all of our positions were more or less in a state of flux.
They hadn't been cleared through the classification office in Wash-
ington and we had received' tentative approval of $3,500 for this
position, but at about the same time that the change took place there,
whv, thev approved the $3,800. so I beheve Mr. Townsend went in
at $3,800.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the approximate time when Mr.
Townsend assumed his duties at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No. It was along in the early fall. I think he was
there not to exceed probably, 3 months.
Mr. Steedman. When did he leave Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. In December, I believe.
Air. Steedman. Wh}^?
Mr. Gelvin. He was discharged.
Mr. Steedman. Why?
Mr. Gelvin. Inefficiency and for the misuse of Government equip-
ment. He went out of the camp on unauthorized trips and he was
also having difficulty in handling the evacuees.
Mr. Steedman. He was having trouble with the Japanese, isn't
that right?
Mr. Gelvin. He was having trouble getting his work done because
he couldn't get along with the Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. How many other white Caucasian persons have
been dismissed from Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I can't tell you for sure because there might be some
cases that I wouldn't know about.
Mr. Steedman. Is the information you have just furnished us
regarding Mr. Townsend indicated on his personnel record which is in
the administration office at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I assume that it is.
Mr. Steedman. But you don't know?
Mr. Gelvin. No; but I wonder if you would mind asking Mr. Empie
that question because I think he has a file with him.
Mr. Steedman, \Mio did Mr. Townsend work for?
Mr. Gelvin. He worked for Mr. Empie.
Mr. Steedman. Did you know Mr. Townsend personally?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, I knew him while he was there on the project.
Mr. Steedman. Who determined that his work was unsatisfactory?
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie. And I will go further than that. I don't
believe the project director was at all satisfied with his work because
there seemed to be a continual upheaval in his division all the time
and since the change was made, why, that division has straightened
out in fairly good shape.
Mr. Steedman. Had Mr. Townsend been an employee of the
Indian Service prior to his going to work at Poston?
8904 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. So far as I know he has never worked for the Indian
Service.
Mr. Steedman. Did the authorities at the Poston project give Mr.
Townsend a letter when he resigned?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall what was stated in the letter?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I don't. There was a letter advising him of his —
that he would be taken from the pay roll. I don't recall just the
contents of the letter. I saw the letter, however.
Mr. Steedman. You did see the letter?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. The letter stated that he had been very diligent in
carrying out his duties, did it not?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't remember whether it did or not. It has been
quite a while smce I hdve seen that letter.
Mr. Mundt. Was it a letter of recommendation or a letter of
dismissal?
Mr. Gelvin. It was a letter of dismissal. It wasn't a letter of
recommendation.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to return once more to the strike.
Mr. Mundt. Before you do that, I would like to know more about
Townsend's background. Where did he come from? You say you
gave him. $3,800 when he first went to work for you. Where did you
get him? Was he a Government employee prior to that time?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't think he had been a Government em-
ployee before he was recommended to us, I believe, by the — well,
Mr. Empie employed him here in Los Angeles. I think he is a Los
Angeles man. I think they contacted him through the O. E. M.
I don't know whether the O. E. M. recommended him or not, but
Mr. Empie interviewed him and they needed a man right quick and
he hired him.
Mr. Mundt. He found him and employed him here in Los Angeles?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. All right, we will have to ask him about that.
Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie employed him and Mr. Empie wrote the
letter of dismissal.
Mr. Steedman. Are the military police permitted in the center at
Poston while in uniform?
Mr. Gelvin. I understand that their orders are such that they are
not supposed to go inside of the center. However, they do have occa-
sion to come directly to the administrative office once in a while.
Mr. Steedman. They are stationed at the main gate, aren't they?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And their function is more that of directing traffic
than anything else, isn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, they are responsible for the outside guarding
of the area while we are responsible for the inside area.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated awhile ago that the strike was
well organized. Did your investigation of the strike indicate who
the leaders of the strike were?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Who were they?
Mr. Gelvin. A fellow by the name of Omori. I don't know his
first name.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8905
Mr. Steedman. How do you spell his last name?
Mr. Gelvin. 0-m-o-r-i, I believe, and a fellow by the name of
T-a-c-h-i-b-a-n-a, I believe the way it is spelled. From Mr. Head's
invest ifrat ion he felt they were the leaders of the strike.
Mr. Steedman. Did you go into the background of the first one
you named?
Mr. Gelvin. Omori?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think Mr. Head did. He handled that
hunself.
Mr. Steedman. Was he an Issei?
Mr.* Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. One of the older Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Had he been connected with the Central Japanese
Association prior to Pearl Harbor?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether he was or not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about his background at all?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. AMiere is he now?
Mr. Gelvin. He is in a detention camp; I don't know which one.
Mr. Steedman. He was segregated after this instance, is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; he was taken out. I don't know just where he
is at.
Mr. Steedman. Was he taken out immediately after the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No; it was awhile before Mr, Head was able to get
all of the infoiTnation and feel satisfied.
Mr. Steedman. Do j^ou know anything about the background of
Tachibana?
Mr. Gelvin. Tachibana— only by hearsay. I think he was a
Japanese language school teacher over here prior to the evacuation.
That is what I have been told.
Mr. Steedman. By the way, is the Japanese language being taught
in the c^mp at Poston at the present time?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do they have regular Japanese language schools?
Mr. Gelvin. They have not schools — they have one school where
they are using the Harvard prescribed course of instruction and there
are about 200 enrolled in it. It is being given for the purpose of
training men for the military intelligence school at Camp Savage,
^^linn.
Mr. Steedman. TMio are the teachers of the school?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't give you the names; they are Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Japanese teachers?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Is this school watched fairly closely by the project
managers?
Mr. Gelvin. It is under the immediate supervision of Dr. Powell.
Mr. Steedman. Does Dr. Powell speak Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. No; he does not.
Mr. Steedman. Did you know that Japanese language schools in
California were engaged in subversive activities prior to Pearl Harbor?
Mr. Gelvin. I have heard that.
8906 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Teaching the students Emperor worship and so
forth?
Mr, Gelvin. I have heard that.
Mr. Steedman. Do you feel that is going on in this school?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't believe it is.
Mr, Steedman. Do you know how many students there are in this
Japanese language school?
Mr. Gelvin. Approxhnately 200,
Mr. Steedman. Male?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think they are all male.
Mr. Mundt. Wliat did you say was the purpose of that? You
said something about Minnesota.
Mr. Gelvin. There is a military intelligence school at Camp
Savage, Minn., in which quite a few of the young Nisei from the camp
have volunteered in the Army, and this school is having difficulty in
getting enough men who can talk the kind of Japanese that they
want, so W. R. A. cleared the way to have this language school at the
oam.p. They are not, however — I would like to make this point — -
they are not carrying on this school in cooperation with the Army or
with the Camp Savage school. This course of instruction is given so
as to let them pass the test to go into the school.
Mr. Mundt. Wliat are the entrance qualifications or examination
to get into the Japanese language school at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know. I would have to check that.
Mr. Mundt. Do they have to meet a higher standard than simply
not being on the stop list?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't believe there are any in there who are on the
stop list because if they are on the stop list, why, I don't think they
would get into the Army.
Mr. Mundt. But isn't there any higher entrance qualifications
than simply not being on the stop list? Don't they pick them pretty
carefully if they are going into the military intelligence service?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know what the Army qualifications are,
Mr. Mundt. Does the Army pick them from your school?
Mr. Gelvin. No, no; they don't; but Dr. Powell, who has this
school under his wing, has familiarized himself with the qualifications
that an individual has to meet in order to go into the military intelli-
gence school, and I assume that those who are — whom he has selected
to go into that school can pass their requirements.
Mr. Mundt. Have you seen a list of the people who are studying
in that school?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I haven't. It has only been recently started,
Mr. Mundt. Are there any Kibeis in that school?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether there are or not.
Mr. Mundt. Will you include in your letter to the committee a
statement as to the exact manner in which students in this school are
selected and what qualifications they have to meet?
. Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I will.
Air. Steedman. Would being a member of the Communist Party
bar a Japanese from enter-ing this school?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether it would or not. Pardon me,
will you repeat the question?
Mr. Mundt. I would like to have you include in your letter a com-
plete statement of the entrance qualifications which a candidate for
this school has to meet before he can enter this Japanese language
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8907
school, and you can include the answer to Mr. Steedman's last ques-
tion in the same letter.
And while we are on the subject of schools, will you include a general
statement about what is being; done with the Japanese bo3^s and girls
of school age there at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. We are maintaining schools in the barracks buildings
at the present time, and we have all grades up through high school.
There are approximately 5,000 children in the schools at the present
time. Schools are under construction. We are making them out of
adobe bricks.
We are building a school in each one of the three units. We are
building a high school building and grade schools in unit 1, and just
high schools in units 2 and 3.
We plan to carry on a full 180-day schedule, which is going to run
up to the last of June, I think, because we were late getting started
last fall with the schools.
About half of the teachers are Japanese and about half are Cau-
casian.
Mr. MuNDT. Are all classes taught in English?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Air. MuNDT. No Japanese is taught there?
Mr. Gelvin, Not to my knowledge; no. There is not supposed
to be. It is supposed to be all in English.
We were faced with quite a problem because we wanted to establish
accredited schools, but our budget limitation would permit us to only
employ about half enough teachers from regular teaching people, so
last summer we established a summer school — a teacher-training
school — and selected the Japanese who were graduates of universities
and in other ways, with the exception of experience, were qualified as
teachers. We gave them this summer school and then they started
out.
About half the teachers are, as I say, Japanese and about half are
Caucasian.
Mr. MuNDT. Does the curriculum conform to that of the State of
Arizona or State of California or where?
Mr. Gelvin. The curriculum is designed so that the schools will be
accredited in the State of California and in the State of Arizona be-
cause many of the teachers we have, or at least some of the teachers
we have, are retired California teachers — old ladies, and many of the —
of course most of the Japanese we have were evacuated from Cali-
fornia, so being located in the State of Arizona, we tried to establish
a curriculum that would be acceptable to the State Education Depart-
ments of both States.
Mr. MuNDT. Do the officials of the Office of Education of Arizona
check your school?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I think they have been in. I only recall of
them having been in once. I didn't meet them. They meet with
Dr. Carey, the director of the schools.
Mr. CosTELLO. How are the teachers selected? From the civil
service list?
Mr. Gelvin. No. We had to recruit teachers wherever we could
get them and the civil service list of teachers — they just didn't have
any eligibility list left and we had to gather up the teachers wherever
we could find them.
8S08 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Many of the teachers who had been retired here in Cahfornia made
apphcation and we received many of them that way.
Mr. CosTELLO. What check up is made on the history and back-
ground of the individuals who are applying for teaching positions?
Mr. Gelvin. Weh, their personal history statements would have
to be m.ade for the benefit of the Civil Service because that is in accord-
ance with Civil Service rules pertaining to appointment and, of course,
every individual who is appointed under Civil Service has to declare
an oath of allegiance to the United States.
Mr. Steedman. You stated, I believe, that the project is building
a school at Poston center?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Building a number of school buildings?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they are divided up into buildings — four class-
rooms to the building.
Mr. Steedman. Are these school buildings of permanent construc-
tion?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they are pretty pemianent construction.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know the cost of these buildings?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't. They are being built out of adobe brick.
We are manufacturing the adobe brick right there at the school sites.
Mr. Steedman. But you do assume those buildings are of a perma-
nent construction or character?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to return for a moment to the strike
that occurred on November 18 and continued up until November 25..
Did the military police guard the Caucasian personnel?
Mr. Gelvin. No; they guarded the outside boundaries of the
camp.
Mr. Steedman. Are the quarters of the Caucasian personnel located
inside of the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Part of them are; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did the military police enter the camp and drive
up in back of the Caucasian quarters at night so the Caucasian per-
sonnel could sleep during the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of.
Air. Steedman. Did your office receive any reports of such a thing?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you live there at the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you live inside of the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Were you living inside of the camp at the time of
the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I live just across the street from the evacuee
barracks.
Mr. Steedman. And if such a thing had happened, you would have
heard about it, wouldn't you?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe so.
Mr. Steedman. Did you feel there was any cause for alarm after
you returned from Salt Lake City?
Mr. Gelvin. My wife and boy were on the project and I didn't
remove them from the project.
Mr. MuNDT. I didn't hear the answer.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8909
Mr. Gelvin. My wife and 10-year-old boy were on the project
and I didn't remove them from the project.
Mr. MuNDT. Was your wife and son tiiere the first S% days?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; and she did not feel any cause for alarm; and
she circulated among the women there.
Mr. Steedman. Were any of the other men and women and
children alarmed because of what was going on?
Mr. Gelvin. Oh, I feel sure some of them might have been.
Mr. Steedman. Were any of the women and children evacuated
from the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. Some of the wives were. Their husbands did take
them out but just how many I can't say. There was very few. I
would like to stress the point "very few."
Mr. Steedman. Is there a jail inside at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, w^e have a place we use for a jail. It is a bar-
racks room back of the police station.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you have already testified that no Japa-
nese flag was raised at Poston during the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. And does that -include the Japanese flag over the
so called jail?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right. I was shown the flag that was reported
was a Japanese flag which was raised. All of the blocks were gathered
in groups and they liad — each block had a banner with their block
number on it. It is kind of a camp aft'air thing, and this flag which was
supposed to have been a Japanese flag was a block number and it was
raised to indicate the block.
Mr. Steedman. In other words, there was no Japanese flag raised
but some people reported that it was a Japanese flag, is that right?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right. And I think the flag could have been,
from a distance, it could have been mistaken for a Japanese flag.
Mr. Steedman. How do you know that the flag in question was the
one that was raised?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't swear to that", no.
Mr. Steedman. Can you sw^ear that the flag we are discussing here
was not the Japanese flag?
Mr. Gelvin. Tliis flag I saw?
Mr. Steedman. No; the one that was raised.
Mr. Gelvin. AA'ell, I couldn't swear to it because I didn't see it
when it was raised.
Mr. Steedman. You were not there?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I wasn't there at the camp, but there was — the
statement was made and circulated that there was a Japanese flag
raised and there was such a storm of protest from the evacuees that I
feel certain in my own mind it was not a Japanese flag.
Mr. Costello. Will you describe the flag? Will j^ou describe what
it looked like? Was it a white flag or what was it?
Mr. Gelvin. It was a white flag.
Mr. Costello. What was written on it?
Mr. Gelvin. The block number. I believe that number was 30.
Mr. Costello. Was the figure 30 in Japanese characters?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; it was in English numerals. However, it was
placed in the center of this white flag and from a distance because of
the way it was drawn— the numerals were drawn.
62626 — 43 — vol. 15 6
8910 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIDS
Mr. CosTELLO. Rounded in shape?
Mr. Gelvin. Rounded in shape, yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were the numerals in red ink or red paint or what-
ever they used?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, it was red.
Mr. Costello. A red and white flag?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir. ■
Mr. Costello. A red circle on a white background, is that it?
Mr. Gelvin. That is what it would look like from a distance, yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Where was this flag raised?
Mr. Gelvin. Down ' at the police station. It was raised and
immediately the people forced them to take it down because they
were afraid it would be mistaken for a Japanese flag, and probably the
individual that raised it wanted to give that impression, as far as that
is concerned — some "smartie" tried to show oft".
Mr. MuNDT. Was it raised on the flag pole there?
Mr. Gelvin. They have a flag pole down at the police station.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you customarily fly an American flag from that
pole?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, but it is taken down in the evening.
Mr. Mi^ndt. When did the strike break out? In the evening or in
the daytime?
Mr. Gelvin. No. The strike broke out about noon and as I under-
stand it this flag was run up at night.
Mr. Mundt. Who took down the American flag that night? The
regular authorities?
Mr. Gelvin. The regular authorities did it. Now, I am not
positive in my statement there as to whether we were flying an
American flag there at that time or not. Since then I know we do fly
an American flag out there. We do now but I am not sure whether
we were at that time.
Mr. Mundt. I was wondering whether the same people didn't run
it up the next morning.
Mr. Gelvin. No. There was just the one case that I loiow of
when they run it up and that was at night.
Mr. Steedman. May we have a recess for a moment?
Mr. Costello. We will take a short recess.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
You may proceed, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever investigated to determine who
raised the flag that we have been discussing, which you say was
mistaken for tlie Japanese flag?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know whether Mr. Head has that information
or not. I know I talked to a considerable number about the strike
and whether he has the information as to the exact individual, I
couldn't say.
Mr. Steedjman. Well, were flags similar to the one you have
described flown in other parts of the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. The only flags that were flown were banners, more
or less, with the block numbers, at this central gathering.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese sing the Japanese national
.anthem during the strike?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8911
Mr. Gelvin. I wouldn't know tho Japanese national anthem if I
heard it ; but I am told that the Japanese national anthem was not
played during the strike.
There was Japanese music but not the national anthem.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know the name of the Japanese national
anthem?
Mr. Gelvin. (No answer.)
Mr. Steedman. Would you recognize the national anthem if you
heard it played?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
^Ir. Steedman. Was an investigation made on this particular
point by Mr. Head?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know the results of his investigation?
Mr. Gelvin. He says that the national anthem was not played.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would you recognize the music that was played
if you heard it again?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe I would.
Mr. CosTELLo. In other words, there were pieces that were ap-
parently repeated constantly?
Air. Gelvin. Yes; they played it over and over again and every
once in a while they put in — they would put in an American piece.
Mr. Costello. For variety?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; there was quite a variety.
Mr. Steedman. They commandeered the public address system
and played these pieces over the public address system, is that
correct?
Air. Gelvin. Well, the public address system at that time was not
the property of the Government. I believe a church organization
had brought it in and it was the evacuees themselves who were taking
care of the public address system and they used it at the strike; yes.
Air. Costello. What church organization installed the public ad-
dress system?
Air. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you just which one brought it in. It
was one of the Protestant organizations.
Air. Costello. It wasn't one of the Buddhist or Shinto organiza-
tions?
Air. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr. Steedman. You are not familiar with the Japanese national
anthem and therefore you are not prepared to testify whether it was
played or not, are you?
Mr. Gelvin. Only from what I have heard; what I have been told
by Air. Head.
Air. Steedman. Was any Government property destroyed during
the strike?
Air. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Steedman. Was any milk destroyed?
Air. Gelvin. Not to my knowledge.
Air. Steedman. What about the Golden State Dairy truck that was
attacked during the strike?
Air. Gelvin. I didn't hear that the truck was attacked.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't been advised of that?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
8912 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Did the military police fire over the heads of a
group of rioting Japanese during the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. They fired but it wasn't over the head of a group of
rioting Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Then please explain why they fired?
Mr. Gex,vin. The internal security officer sent one of his Japanese
policemen over to the truck pool to get a truck and the military police
on guard told him to halt, and in place of that he turned and ran back
into the camp and the M. P. fired over his head.
Mr. Steedman. Fired at one of the Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; that is the story that has been told to me.
Mr. Steedman. But you were not there?
Mr. Gelvin. No. That happened while Mr. Head and I were gone,
Mr. Steedman. But that was reported to you as having occured?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did that report come to you through Army chan-
nels or through the channels of the Caucasian personnel or through
the Japanese themselves?
Mr. Gelvin. That report came to me from Mr. Head. He investi-
gated it.
Mr. Steedman. How did he receive that report, do you know?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't know.
Mr. MuNDT. Who is in command of the company of military police
to which the young man that did the firing belongs?
Mr. Gelvin. At that time?
Mr. MuNDT. At that time, yes.
Mr. Gelvin. I believe it was Lieutenant Young. I believe he was
in command. I believe it was before Major Dykes arrived.
Mr. Steedman. Were any of the Japanese injured during the
strike?
Mr. Gelvin. Not that I know of. I don't remember of any.
Mr. Steedman. Would you recall it if there had been?
Mr. Gelvin. I think so.
Mr. Steedman. Or would your hospital records at Boston indicate
anyone that was injured during the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall whether or not a goon squad beat up
the mother and father of a young Japanese who had been working
with the F. B. I. during the strike?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't know of that.
Mr. Steedman. You did not hear of that?
Mr. Gelvin. No.
Mr. Steedman. Would you have known about it had it happened?
Mr. Gelvin. I think so.
Mr. Steedman. And your hospital records would reveal whether or
not an elderly Japanese man and woman were severely beaten one
nigh t?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; if they were beaten enough to be hospitalized,
but I am sure our internal security officer would have received such a
report.
Mr. Steedman. Now, how are burials handled at Boston?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, they don't have any burials — they cremate all
of their dead.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Government build a crematory at Boston?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8913
Mr. Gelvin. No. Tho mortician at Yuma — there is an arrange-
ment worked out with the mortician at Yuma and he built a crematory
and hanches cremations on contract with the Government.
Mr. Steedman. Is the crematory in one of the warehouses?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; it is in one end of the warehouse.
Mr. Steedman. ^Vhat is the name of the mortician at Yuma wlio
has tlie contract to handle the cremations?
Mr. Gelvin. I can't think of his name right now. I loiow him too.
Mr. Steedman. Does the project keep a record of the cremations?
Mr. Gelvin. They keep a record of all deaths and they have to
keep a record of the cremations so payment can be made for them.
Mr. Steedman. "What does the mortician charge the Government
for the cremations?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you what that contract is right now.
You can check that with Mr. Empie.
Mr. Steedman. Is the crematory used exclusively by personnel of
the camp?
Mr. Gelvin. I tliink there was one other case other than Japanese
that has been cremated. It was in the case of an employee who, I
believe, died of heart failure — yes, it was one of the teachers.
Mr. Costello. Are these death records recorded in the county in
which the project is located or in any other official record?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello. A^Tiere are they recorded?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, they are recorded in Yuma. We fill out a
Tegular death certificate and it is submitted to Yuma County.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to return to the strike for a moment.
I believe you stated that Mr. Head conferred with a committee of the
strikers and a settlement was reached. Is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. What was the basis of the settlement?
Mr. Gelvin. The basis of the settlement covered two main points,
I believe. One was that the prisoner in the jail would be released to
stand trial in the manner prescribed by the project director, realizing
that any change that the F. B. I. had would of course receive preced-
ence. If they wanted to make an arrest — arrest a man they could
and take him away for hearing; and that they, the Japanese, would
select a committee to work with the administration in working out a
satisfactory employment procedure.
We had had difficulty with employment and Mr. Head asked that
of the committee — to see if we couldn't get more people working in
constructive work of some kind. ■
As I recall that is the two main issues that were settled at the
meeting.
Mr. Steedman. Was the young Japanese who was confmed in jail
released?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; he was released and he was later taken to
Yuma and turned over to the United States marshal for trial and
released.
Mr. Steedman. What was his name?
Mr. Gelvin. Isamu Uchida.
Mr. Steedman. What was the result of the trial at Yuma?
Mr. Gelvin. There was found insufficient evidence and he was re-
leased and came back to the camp.
8914 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. STEEDMA.N. Is he at the camp now?
M'r. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. What were the original charges against him?
Mr. Gelvi'n. He was picked up on suspicion of being one of those
of a gang that performed one of these beatings.
Mr. CosTELLO. That was the beating in November?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think that was the beating of the one I re-
ferred to earher.
Mr. Eberharter. Is that committee of Japanese still operating?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, yes; it is still operating but there have been
changes in it. Some have dropped out and others have taken their
place.
Mr. Eberharter. Sort of a management-labor committee?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, it is not — no; it is not a labor management
committee. It is kind of an intermediary committee between the
administration and the evacuees.
We found it worked better in that way in explaining what we wanted
done, by worldng through a third person.
Mr. Eberharter. A somewhat similar arrangement as they have
between management and labor in a good many of the industrial
plants, isn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think so.
Mr. Steedman. After this strilve did you receive a memorandum'
from Mr. Myer in Washington, regarding the handling of the Japanese
relocation center and in this memorandum was there a statement that
the relocation centers were "their camps" with the word "their"'
underscored and the word "their" referring to the Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. I don't recall the circular or instructions.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever received a memorandum from
Washington in which the words "their camp" were underscored and
the words "their camp" meaning the camps belonging to the Japanese?'
Mr. Gelvin. I don't recall having seen one. However, that could
be checked by checking through the administrative instructions at
the project.
Mr. Steedman. What is being done now to segregate the admitted
disloyal Japanese from the Japanese who profess to be loyal?
Mr. Gelvin. The W. R. A. has established a camp at Luppe, Ariz.,
to handle trouble makers who are citizens. As yet I don't believe-
they have their segregation policy completely worked out.
Mr. Steedman. How far is Luppe, Ariz., from Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Oh, it is 300 miles, I guess.
Mr. Steedman. Was that camp established to take care of trouble-
makers at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No; it is for all the W. R. A. camps.
Mr. Eberharter. Have any of the troublemakers at Poston gone
to this camp?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. No segregations have been made so far?
Mr. Gelvin. It has only been recently set up. I think it is only
very recently that it has been ready for occupation,
Mr. Steedman. Do you at the present time have authority to put
troublemakers in separate camps?
Mr. Gelvin. Our procedure on that is to submit a document on the
individual to Washington for approval to remove him to this center.
UN-AMERICAN" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8915
Mr. Steedman. How many have you removed in this fashion?
Mr. Gelvin. We haven't taken any to Liippe.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't removed tiny so-called troublemakers
from the center at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. The F. B. I. have taken troublemakers out and have
them in detention camps.
Mr. Steedman. How many?
Mr. Gelvin. About 18 have been removed since we were down
there.
Mr. Costello. What is the basis on which the F. B. I. removed
those individuals?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't tell you because we don't have access to
the information that they have.
Mr. Costello. What do they do? Do they merely notify the
camp head that they wish to have certain individuals placed in their
custody?
Mr. Gelvin. No. They come in and notify us that they are taking
out an individual. They might tell us why and they might not.
Mostly all the officer has is just a warrant and it doesn't state the
causes or reasons.
Prior to very recently, why, they came in without notification —
that is without contacting us, because they didn't have to. They
have full access to go wherever they want to, but we kind of like to
know it when they take somebody out.
Mr. Steedman. The 18 they have removed are not and were not
all the troublemakers in the camp, are they?
Mr. Gelvin. I am afraid I would be rather optimistic if I said they
were.
Mr. Steedman. Because there are, undoubtedly, a large number who
should be removed from the camp at Poston if you are going to have
peaceful operations there and have no disloyal activities.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; 1 think so. I think some more should be
removed.
Mr. Steedman. Would you care to state your own personal opinion
as to the percentage of the Japanese whom you believe to be loyal and
disloyal?
Mr. Gelvin. I would rather not give that percentage because it is
so difficult to establish a formula to determine loyalty among any
people.
Mr. Steedman. Do you believe there are definite subversive move-
ments on the part of some of the Japanese to alienate the loyal Japa-
nese from their position of loyalty to the United States?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think there is.
Mr. Steedman. There are certain efforts on the part of at least some
of the Japanese to do that?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; I think there are attempts to do that thing; 3"es,
sir. How successful it is, I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Has the Department of Justice returned any
paroled aliens from the Department of Justice detention centers to
Poston?
^Ir. Gelvin. Yes; they have returned quite a few,
Mr. Steedman. How many?
Mr. Gelvin. I couldn't give you the exact figure.
Mr. Steedman. Have these paroled aliens caused you any trouble
since returning to the relocation center at Poston?
8916 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Gelvin. No; as a rule they seem to be pretty peaceable.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I think that is all the questions I
have. I will ask Mr. Empie the other questions that I have but
which Mr. Gelvin is not able to answer.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you any questions, Mr. Eberharter?
Mr. Eberharter. You say the temperature at Poston was around
130°. It gets much cooler than that at night, doesn't it?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; there is quite a wide range of temperature. I
think the top temperature last summer was around 140°.
Mr. Eberharter. And at night
Mr. Gelvin. Of course, when you have that extreme heat you have
very little relief at night. But if you have a temperature of, say 100,
it might drop down to 70 or 65 at night, but during the middle of the
summer when the heat is so severe, why, it is pretty hot at night.
I know we have a desert cooler in our quarters and many nights
during the sum_mer we kept it on all night. We don't like to have it
on at night, however.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you happen to know what the allowances
are for soldier's rations in the Army?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Eberharter. You say 45 cents is allowed the Japanese?
Mr. Gelvin. I believe it is 65 cents for soldiers. Our ration allow-
ance is 45 cents but our average to date has been 38 cents. The cost
is decreasing steadily as we get better organized and more efficient
management.
Mr. Eberharter. Has this food committee since being organized,
made many complaints about the food and the way the food is
served, and about the quality of tlie food or any other matters in that
connection?
Air. Gelvin. We had quite a little troub'e with food up until early
last fall, but since that time 1 have heard very few complaints — that
is, what I would consider serious complaints of a population of that
size. You get, naturally, complaints on whatever was served.
Mr. Eberharter. But the food committee as a group has not
complained very often about the type of food that is being served or
the amount of food?
Mr. Gelvin. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. Eberharter. They seem to be pretty well satisfied?
Mr. Gelvin. Seem to be pretty well- satisfied; yes.
Mr, Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. Gelvin. I might add at that point, for the most of February
and March, the average food cost was 32 cents per day and the aver-
age since the project started has been 38 cents.
Mr. Steedman. Is there a consorship of outgoing or incoming mail
at Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Is baggage searched as it comes in?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. As it goes out?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. But not coming in?
Mr. Gelvin. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Then Japanese could ship in most anything they
wanted to, could they not?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8917
Mr. Gelvin. Yes; they could sliip in anything; tliat they could get
someone to ship them, witli the exce])lion of radios.
We luive had the express olhce — everything that comes in comes in
through the express office and any short-wave radios which come in,
why, they ai-e called to our attention and we have the short wave
attachment r(>moved. We are not radio technicians and the list of
contraband prohibits short-wave radios, with the exception of a wave
band between 540 kilocycles and 1700. We are not radio tech-
nicians and we cut out the whole short-wave measure.
Mr. Steedman. Are Isseis allowed to have radios?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, standard wave band.
Mr. Steedman. Any person in the camp can have a radio?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes. I would like to add at that point that the F. B. I.
has made two checks with locators and have found no evidence of
short wave — either of short-wave receiving or sending sets.
Mr. Steedman. Can the F. B. I. with those locators determine
whether or not a short-wave receiving set is in a neighborhood?
Mr. Gelvin. I have been told that they can.
Mr. Steedman. I understood they could only determine whether or
not there were transmitting sets?
Mr. Gelvin. No, I have been told that. However, I am not a
radio technician and I couldn't swear to that.
Mr. Steedman. That is all.
Mr. Costello. Mr. Mundt, do you have any questions?
Mr. Mundt. No.
Mr. Costello. Do you have any statement you wish to make on
your own accord before this committee, before we adjourn tonight
and before you return to Poston?
Mr. Gelvin. Well, there is only one statement that I care to make.
I have tried here to give information to the best of my knowledge.
We are a Government project operating under policies established
by higher authorities than ourselves. I believe that is all I have to
say.
Mr. Mundt. Do you have any complaint of any kind about the
manner in which these hearings have been conducted?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Do you feel that counsel or any member of the com-
mittee has in any way tried to prejudice your testimony at any time?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. You feel the committee and counsel have been abso-
lutely fair?
Mr. Gelvin. I think they have.
Mr. Mundt. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Costello. If there were in the camp any short wave radios,
there wouldn't be much prospect of your running across them, or
locating them, would there?
Mr. Gelvin. Not unless we were told that they were there. The
F. B. I. picked up one man who ordered a short wave radio from a
company. That company reported it to the F. B. I. and they picked
him up and took him out for 3 months and then released him and he
came back to the camp.
Mr. Costello. Would it be possible for any of the younger Japa-
nese who might be familiar with radio, to build a short wave set or
8918 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
to adjust an existing set over to a short wave set capable of receiving
short wave messages?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. And you would have no means of directly knowing
that? ^
Mr. Gelvin. No; we wouldn't directly know that until it had been
told to us by some of the people in the camp, because we don't search
the barracks.
Mr. Costello. With reference to the publication of the camp
newspaper: Is there any censorship of the articles before they are
printed?
Mr. Gelvin. We had a reports officer, who was a former newspaper-
man, who handled that. However, he has left the project and we do
not have a reports officer at the present time.
We have placed that under the community activity department for
them to handle the censorship; the reading of the articles, and so forth.
Mr. Costello. And who is at the head of that?
Mr. Gelvin. Dr. Powell.
Mr. Costello. And he is an employee of the W. R. A.?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. Is there anyone who reads the Japanese articles
which appear in that paper prior to publication?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Mr. Costello. No translation is made and submitted to Dr. Powell
before it is published?
Mr. Gelvin. No; only that copies of the paper are submitted to
the W. R. A. in Washington.
Mr. Costello. But subsequent to their publication?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes.
Mr. Costello. After they have been printed?
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, sir; so if there is anything out of line it could be
checked there.
Mr. Costello. Do you know whether or not they attempt to
translate Japanese articles that are printed?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Air. Costello. The paper that is printed in Salt Lake City, I
believe under the auspices of the J. A. C. L., has no connection with
the War Relocation Authority?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir.
Air. Costello. That is an independent Japanese newspaper and
is completely removed from W. R. A. control, is that correct?
Mr. Gelvin. That is correct. I am not familiar with the man-
agement of it although I do see the paper each time it comes out, but
to my knowledge there is no connection with the W. R. A.
Mr. Costello. It has been filled with numerous criticisms of
General DeWitt and other persons, with regard to the Japanese in
these camps. The W. R. A. has no control over that situation?
Mr. Gelvin. No, sir. We feel General DeWitt is above criticism
in time of war.
Mr. Costello. That particular paper in Salt Lake City has, I
know, on several occasions contained numerous criticisms of General
DeWitt and the regulations regarding the Japanese.
Mr. Gelvin. Yes, I have seen those.
Mr.' Costello. Is there anything further?
UN-AJMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8919
!Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask one more question. "Who was
the press intelligence officer at the Foston Center?
Mr. Gelvin. We didn't have a "press intelligence officer." It was
a "reports officer." That was his title. His name was Norris James.
Air. Steedman. When did he resign?
Mr. Gelvin. It was about the middle of May, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. 1943?
Air. Gelvin. Yes.
Air. Steedman. Why did he resign?
Air. Gelvin. He was going into the Navy.
Air. Steedman. Was his work at Poston satisfactory?
Air. Gelvin. His resignation was accepted without prejudice.
Air. Steedman. Was he given a letter of recommendation when he
left?
Air. Gelvin. I don't know whether he was or not.
Air. Steedman. Could you answer my question yes or no? Was
his work satisfactory?
Air. Gelvin. I would rather not answer the question yes or no.
I would rather say that his resignation was accepted without prejudice.
Air. Steedman. How long was he employed at Poston?
Air. Gelvin. He came there about the 1st of Alay a year ago.
He was there about a — he was there — •
Air. Steedman. He was there a year?
Air. Gelvin. Yes.
Air. Steedman. That is all.
Air. Costello. We appreciate very much your testimony today,
Air. Gelvin. 1 think we have given you sort of an ordeal by starting
at 10 o'clock this morning and winding up here at 6 o'clock in the
evening. But we appreciate the frankness of your testimony and your
efforts to cooperate with the committee.
That Vv^ill conclude the hearings for today and we shall adjourn until
tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 6 p. m., an adjournment was taken until 10 a. m.^
Wednesday, June 9, 1943.)
IXVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAGANDA ACTIV-
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to
Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
The siibcommittoe met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States
Post Office and Coiirthoiise, Los An2;eles, Calif., Hon. John M.
Costello, chairman of tlie subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Hon. John AI. Costello, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter, and
Hon. Karl E. Miiiult.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee,
acting counsel.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. You may call
your next witness, Mr. Steedman.
Air. Steedman. Air. Empie, will you be sworn?
Air. Costello. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Air. Empie. I do.
Air. Costello. You may proceed with the Cjuestioning of the wit-
ness. Air. Steedman.
TESTIMONY OF AUGUSTUS W. EMPIE, CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE
OFFICER, COLORADO RIVER WAR RELOCATION PROJECT,
POSTON, ARIZ.
Air. Steedman. Will you please state j^our full name for the
record?
Air. Empie. Augustus W. Empie.
Air. Steedman. And will vou state vour present address?
Air. Empie. Box 326, Parker, Ariz. ^
Air. Steedman. Do you live inside the Poston relocation center?
Air. Empie. No, sir; I live at what is known as Silver City, the
Irrigation Division head quarters of the Intiian Service.
Air. Steedman. Are 3'ou married?
Air. Empie. Yes.
Air. Steedman. Where were you born?
Air. Empie. Safforrl, Ariz.
Air. Steedman. A^hen were j^ou born?
Air. Empie. June 1, 1906.
Air. Steedman. Have vou served in the armed forces of the United
States?
8921
8922 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please state briefly where you went to
school?
Mr. Empie. I went to school through grammar school and high
school at Safford. The only work that I had in university was a
special accounting course at the American University in Washington,
D. C; a correspondence course in accounting from the International
Accountant Society.
Mr. Steedman. Have you passed any C. P. A. examinations?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please give the committee an outline of
the places you have worked?
Air. Empie. Yes, sir. My work began in 1923 during the summer-
school vacation period when I was employed as a clerk and bookkeeper
by the Soloman Co. at Safford, Ariz.
The next employment that I had was as a clerk-stenographer for
the county agricultural agent of Graham County, Ariz. I served there
during a school term for a 6-month period and out of school hours.
My next employment began in September 1924 and ran through
February 1925. I was employed as clerk-stenographer with the
Bank of Safford at Safford, Ariz.
At that time I took a civil-service examination and was selected
from an eligible list submitted to the irrigation No. 4 district head-
quarters at Los Angeles for a position of timekeeper, to be employed
at Coolidge Dam project on the Gila River, Ariz.
I reported for duty on June 1, 1925, and was employed in progres-
sively more important positions in the Indian Service from that
date until now.
Mr. Steedman. When did you leave the Indian Service?
Mr. Empie. I never left the Indian Service since I was employed
18 years ago.
Mr. Steedman. Are you at the present time employed by the
Indian Service?
Mr. Empie. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And what is your present position?
Mr. Empie. Chief administrative officer.
Mr. Steedman. At the Poston relocation center?
Mr. Empie. Colorado River war relocation project is the official
title of the project.
Mr. Steedman. For the purpose of this record in order to speed
up the testimony, we refer to that as "Poston."
Mr. Empie. All right, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And you are paid from the Indian Service funds?
Mr. Empie. We are paid from War Relocation Authority funds
transferred to us on the books of the Treasury from the O. E. M. to
the Indian Service.
Mr. Steedman. What was your last position when you were
actually working with the Indian Service itself?
Mr. Empie. My title was senior accountant and auditor in charge
of installation of accounting procedures and personnel organization
throughout the Indian field service — approximately 100 field offices.
Mr. Steedman. Where were your headquarters?
Mr. Empie. Washington, D. C.
Mr. Steedman. How long did you have t<hat position?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8923
Mr. Empie. Approximately 7 years.
^^r. Steedman. What was your salary at the time you left?
Mr. Empie. $3,700.
Mr. Steedman. What is your present salary?
Hr. Empie. $5,G00.
Mr. Steedman. When did you leave the position that you have
referred to in the actual Indian Service?
Mr. Empie. I was told to report to San Francisco on the 30th of
March 1942, and report to the then project director at Poston,
Mr. E. R. Fryer.
Mr. Steedman. When did you arrive at Poston?
•Mr. Empie. On the 19th of April 1942.
Mr. Steedman. That was 3 days after the W. R. A. was set up by
Executive order of the President, wasn't it?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; that was approximately 1 month after it was
set up in March.
Mr. Steedman. How many times have you been away from Poston
since 3"ou were there last year?
Mr. Empie. You mean on official business or otherwise?
Mr. Steedm.\n. On official business first.
Mr. Empie. Let me see. Oh, I would say roughly a half dozen
times — one trip to Washington and probably three trips to Phoenix
and as many to Los Angeles.
Mr. Steedman. Were you away from Poston last Novemiber, if
you recall?
Mr. Empie. I don't believe I was.
Mr. Steedman. You were at the project all during the month of
November?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Were you at the project during all of the month
of December?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I was over. here in December.
Mr. Steedman. "Over here?"
Mr. Empie. Yes; for a few days.
t Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the day you left Poston?
Mr. Empie. No; I don't know exactly. My recollection is about
the 16th, somewhere along there.
Mr. Steedman. \Miat was the purpose of your trip to Los Angeles?
Mr. Empie. To confer with the Office for Emergency Management,
Central Administrative Services, in connection with procurement
work and selection of personnel to man certain positions in my
organization.
Air. Steedman. Were you over here during the Christmas season
last year?
Mr. Empie. Well, I presume that would be called the Christmas
season or about that time.
Mr. Steedman. You went back to Poston just after Christmas of
last year; is that correct?
Mr. Empie. No; I was there at Christmas time.
Mr. Steedman. You were at Poston at Christmas time?
Mr. Empie. 1 didn't stay over here but just a few days. I think
probably 3 or 4 days.
Mr. Steedman. Have you taken your annual leave this year?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
8924 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Air. Steedman. You have had no annual leave this year?
Mr. Empie. No, sh-.
Mr. Steedman. Had you had any actual experience with Japanese
prior to going to Poston?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you always lived in Arizona?
Mr. Empie. Well, not
Mr. Steedman. Except for the period you were in Washington?
Mr. Empie. I lived here at one time.
Mr. Steedman. How long did you live in Arizona?
Mr. Empie. I lived there from September 1928' through December
1929.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever made a study of the Japanese
language?
Mr. IEmpie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you speak Japanese?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I would first like to take up the iri'igation system
at Poston with you. Mr. Gelvin advised the committee that you
would probabl}^ be able to testify to the estimated cost of the exten-
sion of the irrigation system. Could you give us any idea what
that is going to cost?
Mr. Empie. You mean the over-all project cost?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Empie. The long-range program?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Empie. My estimate would be $10,000,000, just offhand.
Mr. Steedman. And that extension is being built for the use of
the relocation center; is that correct?
Mr. Empie. The part that is to be used for the relocation center
and for the benefit of the evacuees is a very small portion of the total
project.
Mr. Steedman. What proportion of the total project would you
say is being built for the exclusive use of the evacuees?
Mr. Empie. Not to exceed 5,000 acres.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat w^ould you estimate the cost of that improve-
ment to be?
Mr. Empie. For this particular work?
Mr. Steedman. -Yes.
Mr. Empie. Oh, I would say $3,000,000 offhand.
Mr. Steedman. This relocation program is a temporary expedient,
isn't it, on the part of the W^ar Relocation Authority?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Then why are they spending $3,000,000 to build
an irrigation system for the Japanese if it is only a temporary program?
Mr. Empie. Well, it might be explained in this manner. In casting
about for a place to locate the project, the Director of the War Relo-
cation Authority contacted the Indian Office and the Secretary of the
Interior and discussed the location at Poston. The Indian Service
explained to the Director of W. R. A. — outlined the long-range program
wliich had been presented to the Bureau of the Budget before and
they mutually agreed it would be to the benefit of both parties con-
cerned to locate there and on that basis money was allotted to the
Indian Service, with the approval of the Bureau of the Budget, to
UN-AAIERICAN- PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8925
establisli tho camp there, with the iinderstandino; that a portion of the
money woiiltl be ahotted to construct tlie main canal and a small part
of the lateral system, to the extent necessary to serve tliis immediate
area around the camp, and thus kill two birds with one stone, so to
speak.
Mr. Steedman. Does the Indian Service plan to use this irrigation
system after the Japanese have been relocated in the Middle West?
Mr. Empie. Yes; the over-all program calls for the construction of
all irrigation facilities and project work to serve approximately 110,000
acres of land.
Mr. Steedman. Hasn't the Bureau of Reclamation been having
some difhculty in securing settlers to settle on lands that have been
reclaimed?
Mr. Empie. Are you speaking of the Bureau of Reclamation?
Mr. Steedman. I am speaking of the Bureau of Reclamation.
You are familiar with their program ; are you not?
Mr. Empie. Yes; I am. I think probably that is trud; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Well, don't you think
Mr. Empie. But that is just hearsa}^
Mr. Steedman. Don't you think that the Indian Service will have
the same difficulty if they build this tremendous project? Don't you
feel they will likewise be unable to get settlers on that land?
Mr. Empie. Well, of course, all the work and all the efforts of the
' Indian vService to develop land is primarily for the benefit of the
Indians, and their long-range plan was to subjugate this land for the
benefit of the southwestern tribes and locate them on that basis.
In other words it would be supplementing their resources of the other
reservations.
Mr. Steedman. But this improvement is a permanent improve-
ment; isn't that correct?
Mr. Empie. That is right; yes.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that your pg:-esent salary is
$5,600 a year?
Mr. Empie. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you pay subsistence out of that?
Mr. Empie. Surely.
Mr. Steedman. Does the project furnish you with an automobile?
Mr. Empie. For my official business; yes.
Mr. Steedman. What kind of an automobile is it?
Mr. Empie. A 4-door Buick sedan, about a 1940 model, I beheve
it is.
Mr. Steedman. And they furnish you with gasoline and oil and
tires?
Mr. Emi^ie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many so-called pleasure cars are there at
Boston?
Mr. Empie. Do you mean by that
Mr. Steedman. Automobiles?
Mr. Empie. Passenger cars?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Empie. Do you mind if I refer to my notes?
Mr. vSteedman. No, go right ahead.
Mr. Empie. We have 13 coupes and 42 sedans and 7 station wagons.
I might say that these automobiles, some of them, were transferred to
62026 — 43— vol. 15 7
,8926 ' UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
US from the Army and other branches of the Government. These
sedans were purchased, as I understand it, by the Army from the
evacuees and sent to many of the projects for project use.
Mr. Steedman. How did it happen that Miss Findley rated a
Packard when she was there?
Mr. Empie. The assignment of the automotive equipment was all.
made under the direction of the — the general direction of the supply
and transportation officer and the immediate direction of the dis-
patcher. And if you could have seen the Packard and the trouble
she had keeping it going, you wouldn't think much about it.
Mr. Steedman. She had some bad tires too, didn't she?
Mr. Empie. Yes, she did.
Mr. Steedman. Is there a curfew at Poston now?
Mr. Empie. I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. You are not able to answer whether you have
curfew there?
Mr. Empie. No, sir, I am not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not any of the automotive
equipment has been used after hours at Poston by the Japanese?
Mr. Empie. Yes; it has.
Mr. Steedman. For what purpose?
Mr. Empie. Some for official business in caring for the maintenance
of utilities by the police department and fire department, and in some
instances, before we were able to exercise the right kind of control
over it. for general purposes — just moving about the camp area.
Mr. Steedman. Pleasure driving?
Mr. Empie. Well, it might be considered that, yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did the evacuees go on picnics wdth the automo-
tive equipment?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. They did?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. To what extent?
Mr. Empie. Well, on week ends and after hours. The river is
nearby and there is very very little recreation there and they took
the automobiles and went down there.
Gradually we are tightening up on that more and more all the time;
Mr. Steedman. Was it official Government equipment that was
used?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are the Japanese allowed to have their own per-
sonal cars in the camp?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; those cars, when they come in, are checked in
by the dispatcher. The equipment in the car is listed so there will
be no question about whose property moves out of the camp, and their
cars are confined to the motor pool mitil they get ready to leave the
camp.
Mr. MuNDT. Who gives them permission to use the cars to go to
picnics?
Mr. Empie. For picnics?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Empie. That is the responsibihty of the division heads — the
people in charge of the work of the various divisions of the project
being accountable officers as I am, under bond. It has been my sincere
UN-AMERIC.\N PROPAG.\NDA ACTIVITIES 8927
effort to solicit the cooperation of all the division heads on the project
to successfully control the use of the equipment.
Mr. MuNDT. Are the division heads white people or Japanese?
Mr. Empie. ^^^lite.
Mr. MuNDT. Shouldn't have very much difficulty getting their
cooperation, should you, inasmuch as you are their immediate superior
officer, aren't you?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I can't say that I am. I am not the project
director.
Mr. MuNDT. Doesn't somebody in the camp have authority to
send out a memorandum to the division heads and say: "These cars
shall not be used for certain purposes — period."
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. But that has not been done?
Mr. Empie. Yes; it has been done.
Mr. MuNDT. I understood you to say you were gradually tightening
up on it.
ATr. Empie. That is right, trying to, as I said,, put forth every
efi'ort to get them to comply with the regulations that I have issued.
Mr. MuNDT. And you are speaking of the white heads?
Mr. Empie. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. But some of them are disinclined to follow the
instructions issuing from the heads of the project?
Mr. Empie. I beheve so, yes, sir. That is the impression I get
from where I sit.
• Mr. ^tIuNDT. What mea,ns have you taken to get a little better
cooperation on the part of the division heads when they show such
insubordination?
Mr. Empie-. I have to look to the man in charge of the automotive
equipment under my general direction. And I ask him to contact
the division heads r.nd discuss the problem together with the project
director, and ask him to impound all the equipment that is used
a-busively. or what 1 consider ill 'gaily.
Mr. MuKDT. It would be a correct statement of the case then,
that the fact these <tjs are used by the Japanese for picnic purposes
IS really due to a lack of diligence on the part of the division heads
and not the Japanese appropriating the equipment and using it?
;Mr. Empie. Absolutely.
Mr. EiiERHARTER. When was this memorandum issued with respect
to the use of this equipment for these purposes?
Mr. Empie. In July 1942.
Mr. Eberharter. July 1942?
Mr. Empie. Yes.
Mr. Steedmax. Will you state just briefly what your duties and
responsibilities are at Boston?
Air. Empie. Yes, sir; I have charge of, what is knowm in the project,
organization of the administrative branch, which consists of the
following divisions: Mails, Files, and Communications; Bersonnel,
Supply and Transportation, Brocurement, Fiscal.
In addition to those which "are ordinarily considered administra-
tive services, I have general supervision over the chief steward's
office.
Mr. Steedmax. Are you diicctly responsible for the heads of the
departments yuu have named?
8928 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr, Empie. I am, yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Let me ask this question: Is there anybody between
you and Mr. Head; any official, or are vou responsible «iirectly to
Mr. Head?
Mr. Empie. That is right, except Mr. Gelvin, I work through
him in Mr. Head's absence.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you write the memorandums directly t-o Mr.
Head or do you route them through Mr. Gelvin?
Mr. Empie. When Mr. Head is there I address them to him.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words you don't have to go through Mr.
Gelvin to reach Mr. Head?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to return for a few moments again to
the use of automotive equipment. Have any of the Japanese at
Poston made automobile trips to visit their relatives and friends in
the Middle West or in the East?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge — I don't know.
Mr. Steadman. Would your records indicate whether or not such
trips have been made?
Mr. Empie. If they were in Government cars they would. Is that
what you mean? You mean Government cars?
Mr. Steedman. That is what I mean. They would have to use
Government cars if they were going to travel by automobile from
Poston, wouldn't they?
Mr. Empie. Well, I guess they would now. They can't get any
gasoline in Arizona.
Mr. Steedman. And thej^ would also have to have an escort,
wouldn't they?
Mr. Empie. Unless they had an official pass from the Western
Defense Command to travel in the zone.
Mr. Steedman. This committee would like to have that information.
Will you make a note on your memorandum to furnish the committee
with the number of trips made by Japanese in Government-owned
cars, to the Middle West and east coast, the date of the trips and the
reasons, and the number of passengers, and whether there were
Caucasian escorts?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Would your records also show when these cai-s are
used for picnicking?
Mr. Empie. I am afraid not; no, sir. It is only within the knowl-
edge of the people who are trying to look after it.
Mr. MuNDT. No reports are made of that unless you accidently
discover the fact that they went on a picnic?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. MuNDT. W^ould you be able to estimate how many of those
picnics have taken place since the memorandum was issued to stop
that practice? That memorandum was issued in July, I believe you
said.
Mr. Empie. Oh, it would be pretty hard to estimate it, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you say there has just been one or two or three
isolated instances?
Mr. Empie. Oh, no; it is a regular occurrence.
Mr. MuNDT. Going back to the division heads again, who failed to
follow out this memorandum: You are in charge of them, aren't you?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8929
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I am not in charge of them.
Mr. MuNDT. Yom- chief of transportation under you is in charge
of them?
Mr. Empie. It can't be said that he is in charge of the other division
heads; no, sir. You see — ^let me explain it this way, if you please.
Mr. MuNDT. All right.
Mr. Empie. These divisions that I am in charge of are established
and maintained as facilitating divisions for all the other project
operations.
When the project director establishes a program he lines up all his
division heads and says that so and so is a part of the program which
we are responsible for. "Do you need any equipment, need any sup-
plies, need any personnel? The materials will go to Mr. Empie's
branch and he will try and help you out — establish the set-up to
facilitate your work."
And when they call on us for cars, we assign them the cars and we
tell them what the requirements arc. Our work after that, so far as
control of the equipment is concerned, is police work, you might call it.
Mr. MrNDT. The memorandum stopping the pleasure use of thesis
cars was issued by Mr. Head, is that right?
Mr. Empie. I issued it and Mr. Head approved it.
Mr. MuNDT. And the responsibility of enforcing it, at least over
those divisions w^hich don't come under you, would flow from Mr.
Head's office?
Mr. Empie. I consider it that way, yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether or not any disciplinary measures
were taken by Mr. Head against the division chiefs who failed to
follow out the pm-port of his order?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Were any men disciplined for violating that order?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. It is just a matter of general persuasion from him?
Mr. Empie. I think it could be said that it is an educational pro-
gram. We have a big job to do anfl they overlook the little details —
what they consider little details, without a sense of responsibility or
accountability for Government property.
That has been my experience in the Indian Service for 18 years.
It is a program that every administrative officer is up against to
impress upon the officials of the Government in charge of various
programs — the importance of keeping track of Government property
after funds have been converted from cash into property.
Mr. MuNDT. You might say that is a Nation-wide difficulty?
Mr. Empie. Yes, I consider it so, yes, sir.
Mr. MrNDT. That is all.
Mr. Steedm.\n. Do your records indicate how much money has
been spent at Poston since the camp was first started?
Mr. Empie. I can give that to you in approximate figures.
Mr. Steedman. That will be all right.
Mr. Empit". $9,600,000. That is including an estiinate to June 30,
for the month of June.
Mr. Steedman. Is the project completed at this time?
Mr. Empie. No. sir. it isn't.
Mr. Steedman. How much more money is intended to be spent
there?
8930 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Empie. As far as construction is concerned, enough to com-
plete the clearing of 5,000 acres of kind.
Mr. Steedman. Will any more money be spent for buildings — ■
administrative buildings and barracks?
Mr. Empie. We have a progi-am now to construct 20 4-family
apartments for the administrative personnel.
Mr. Steedman. If it is the policy of the W. R. A. to relocate the
evacuees in the Middle West and East, why are more barracks being
built and more money being spent?
Mr. Empie. If you will allow me to I will explain it in this way:
When this program was undertaken we drained the Indian Service
personnel resources to man the project. To get the job done we called
on these people from every part of the country and all over the various
Indian reservations.
They came in there leaving their families at home because they
were told that there was no place for them to live; that they woidd
have to come in there and leave their families unless they were willing
to put up with one-room barrack-type quarters.
Some of them came and brought their families; some have children
that have lived for the last year in very close quarters, and it is really
remarkable to me that they have remained with us. It has been a
very trying situation as far as living conditions are concerned, because
of the lack of facilities we have had at our disposal.
Mr. Steedman. The proposed buildings are to house the Caucasian
personnel; is that correct?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; the 20 4-family units.
Mr. MuNDT. In that connection, when Mr. Gelvin left the Indian
Service and went to the relocation center he received a substantial
increase m pay?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And you did likewise?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that general of all these Indian Service employees,
or was that primarily just for you two?
Mr. Empie. No, sir, that is general.
Mr. MuNDT. Most of those who went to Poston received a sub-
stantial mcrease in pay?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; and I would like to add that that is a classifica-
tion of all those positions which was approved first, in the Indian
Office — first, I should say, by the Bureau of the Budget who gave us
the allotment, and next by the Indian Office through the Classification
Division of the Secretary of the Interior's Office and the Civil Service
Commission.
These positions were all filled in that manner.
Mr. Steedman. They would have to be approved in that manner
or you couldn't receive your salary check; isn't that correct?
Mr. Empie. That is right.
Mr. Costello. Speaking about the $9,600,000 cost, does that refer
merely to the buildings and improvements that have been put in
the camp?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; that is the total expenditures for all purposes.
Mr. Costello. And that includes food and living expenses and
things of that character?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8931
Mr. Costp:llo. As well as the salaries of the employees, and wages
pnid out?
Mr. E.MPiE. Yes. sir.
Mr. MfxXdt. Coiik) you break that up between project cost per se,
the building project, and the operating costs?
]Mr. Empie. 1 might quote some figures here if that would be helpful
to you. That would indicate some of the details.
Air. MuNDT. I would lilvc to have that.
Mr. Empie. I won't guarantee them — I won't guarantee that they
will all tie together when I get through.
M,r. CosiELLo. Just give us an estimate so we can have some idea
of the picture.
Mr. Empie. We have our allotment ledgers broken down by budget
objective classes for the various branches of the project, and if you
would like to have me 1 will read these oil" that make up that total
[reading!:
What we consider as administrative expenses, $480,000.
Mr. Steedman. Is that per month?
Mr. Empie. No, sir, that is for a 12 months' period. This is for the
year 1943 [reading]:
Agriculture and industry $.390, 000
Education 296,000
Health and sanitation 153, 000
Welfare and recreation 10, 000
Employment and placement : 26, 000
Fire protection 22, 000
Internal security 74, 000
Japanese labor or subsistence, public assistance grants, unemployment
compensation, clothing allowances, and leave assistance 5, 608, 000
Public Work total 2, 571, 000
That is broken down as follows:
Buildings and grounds__. . $725, 000
Drainage 130,000
Flood control ^ 3,000
Irrigation 533, 000
Roads 1 84, 000
Subjugation 1 . 154, 000
Additions to electric plant i 30, 000
Operation and mamtenance (that is, utilities and ground, and so forth) _. 801, 000
That is the total of $9,600,000 in round figures.
Mr. Mi'XDT. That is the figure for a camp of how many people dur-
ing that period?
Mr. Empie. An average population since its inception of appro .vi-
mately 17.000.
Mr. MuNDT. Could you tell us how much there was for leave
assistance alone? You have that grouped with quite a few other
items. Do you have it broken down further?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; leave assistance, an average for the 12 months'
period, $14,600 a month. However, that figure
Mr. MuNDT. $14,600 per month?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; that figure, however, might be misleading
because those leave grants were not authorized prior to March 24 of
this year.
Mr. MuNDT. That includes what? Does that include the $50 cash
allotment that an evacuee gets if he needs it?
8932 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES.
Mr. Empie. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. What else; railroad tickets? Do you pay for that?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Is there anything else? Is there a clothing allotment
of any kind?
Mr. Empie. No, sir, that is made up of the coach fare for each
member of the family. The applicant and each member of his family
receive the following: $50 for himself
Mr. MuNDT. And not for the rest of the family?
Mr. Empie. For himself, $25 for the first dependent, and $25 for all
additional dependents, whether it is one or five.
Mr. MuNDT. And that is all that enters into that figure of $14,600?
Mr. Empie. Yes. Would you like to have some of the figures on
payments to the evacuees?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Empie. I might refer again to the — to refresh your memory, to
the $5,608,000. That is an average expenditure of $467,000 made up
as follows: Approximately $107,000 for labor; clothing, $71,000; unem-
ployment compensation, $420,000; food, $203,000; and the leave
grants of $14,600; public assistance, $203,000; and all other miscel-
laneous operating expenses chargeable to the feeding, housing, and
clothing of the evacuees, including fuel oil to operate the kitchens, and
block manager supplies such as, for the community buildings, such as
disinfectants, toilet paper, and things of that nature, miscellaneous
supplies and equipment for operating the mess halls — that is, replace-
ments and so forth— $69,000.
That makes up the $467,000 per month.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have the estimated cost of the subjugation
of the 5,000 acres of land which you intend to put into cultivation in
the near future?
Mr. Empie. It is averaging roughly $125 an acre to subjugate the
land — that is, clearing it and leveling it and bordering it in making
it ready for irrigation.
Mr. Steedman. Who will work this land after you get it subju-
gated?
Mr. Empie. During the operation of the relocation project, it will
be operated by the evacuees from a subsistence standpoint.
Mr. Steedman. The program of the W. R. A. is to relocate the
evacuees in the Middle West; isn't that right?
Air. Empie. Yes, sir; that is their program, but it is not taking
efi'ect as fast as they thought it would. There are going to be a lot
of Japanese on the project for a long time after they estimated they
would be gone.
Mr. Steedman. Well, most of the Japanese who are being evacu-
ated at the present time into the Middle West are young Japanese,
are they not?
Mr. Empie. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. They are the ones who could work this land; isn't
that right?
Mr. Empie. No, sir, not necessarily. We have a great many older
Japanese who are experienced farmers and really want to work the
land. They are the boys that get out and work the land.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8933
Mr. Steedman. Well, you will bo left with the older people there
at Poston to work these 5,000 acres of land that you subjugate.
Isn't that correct?
Mr. Empie. I don't think many of them can be considered "old."
They are older than the younger ones that go out, but they are not
decrepit by any means.
Mr. Steedman. WTiat is the average age of the Issei? Do you
have any estimate of that?
Mr. Empie. It would be just an estimate on my part, but I imagine
50 years old.
Mr. MuNDT. And they are mostly people who were farming some
place along the west coast before they were evacuated; is that correct?
Mr. Empie. I understand that, and this again is an estimate on
my part, but approximately 60 percent of our people were associated
with farming activities before they went there.
Mr. CosTELLO. You spoke of the plan of the War Relocation
Authority to relocate these people in the Midwest. It isn't any
part of their plan to locate any of these Japanese evacuees here on the
Pacific coast again, is it?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was it ever a part of their program to do that?
Mr. Empie. Are you speaking from our project standpoint or from
the national standpoint?
Mr. CosTELLO. From the national standpoint of the W. R. A.,
if you have any information on that.
Mr. Empie. I have never heard it mentioned myself, that they
were actually planning to try to get them moved back until after the
war was over.
Mr. CosTELLo. And as far as you are concerned locally at Poston,
that has not been your program?
Mr. Empie. That is right, it has not.
Mr. MuNDT. Does the W. R. A. have any plan or tentative plan
for what is to be done with these Japanese after the war is over?
Mr. Empie. The W. R. A.?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Empie. I think that is a problem that we have all got to face.
I think they are groping for the answer to that problem. As you
and I know, the Californians do not seem to want them and Arizona
doesn't want them, and that is about the size of it.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know of anybody who does want them?
Mr. Empie. Not imtil they become acquainted with them. Never
having been acquainted with them or associated with them before,
they don't know who they are dealing with and, consequently, it ia
natural for them to be suspicious of them.
I think the people, the Japanese people, who are sincere and trying
to demonstrate their understanding of the principles of democracy,
there is a tendency, I will say, on the part of the people with whom
they become associated to give them some credit for the work that
they try to do. In other words I think it is a fact that the — if I
might go on just a little more?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes, go ahead.
Mr. Empie. That the Japanese people have been confined so long
in California and have never gone anywhere else in the United States,
it is just something that we are up against.
8934 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS
Now, we had to move them out of here for the prosecution of the
war, which I think was a good thing, and now what to do with them is
a big problem.
Mr. Steedman. I beheve you stated that the people of Arizona
don't want the Japanese to relocate in the State of Arizona?
Mr. Empie. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Is that the attitude of the people around Phoenix?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Generally?
Mr. Empie. From the reports that I get; yes, sir. I have never
talked to any of them over there. I attended a hearing, however, at
Phoenix that Senator Chandler conducted, at which it was very
forcibly expressed they didn't want them there.
Mr. Steedman. Does the project have at this time a contract with
a man by the name of Mr. Mclntyre?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What is Mr. Mclntyre's first name?
Mr. Empie. I can't say, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What type of business or occupation is Mr.
Mclntyre engaged in?
Mr. Empie. I don't know, except that I understand he deals in
rental of equipment and sale of various kinds of construction machinery
and so forth.
Mr. Steedman. Does he rent certain equipment to the project at
Poston?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; we have on rental from him, as I remember,
about three tank trucks that we use on road maintenance.
Mr. Steedman. Sprinkler trucks?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat is the rate of pay per hour that Mr. Mc-
lntyre receives for those three trucks?
Mr. Empie. $2.75.
Mr. Steedman. How many hours per day do you guarantee him
to use the trucks?
Mr. Empie. I don't remember, Mr. Steedman. I would have to
refer to the contract for that.
Mr." Steedman. Do you think that you guarantee him as many as
16 hours a day?
Mr. Empie. I am sorry, I don't recall, but it is entirely possible
because we have to run two or three shifts to keep the road wet
down enough to maintain it. It is a desert road — well, you wouldn't
call it a "desert road" but it is a gravel road and that country is very
arid and it takes a lot of water to keep it wet.
Mr. Steedman. $2.75. Does that include the pay of the driver of
the truck?
Mr. Empie. If you don't mind me taking a little time here, I think
I have a note on that somewhere. No, I don't. I don't know whether
it does or not.
Mr. Steedman. Is that the usual rental for trucks aroimd Parker?
Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know as you would say "around Parker"
but this contract was entered into after circulating advertisements for
bids for that type of equipment and the low bid was accepted and
under the terms of the contract the rate charged by the contractor is
guaranteed not to exceed the ceiling price set by the Office of Price
Administration.
UN"-AMEEICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8935
Mr. Steedman. You mean the per hour ceiling price on the rental
of trucks?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; including all the services or expense that that
is supposed to cover.
Mr. Steedman. That is an unusual service and probably no other
service in that area would be comparable to that?
Mr. Empie. I think that is right.
Mr. Steedman. So the $2.75 an hour wouldn't be a yardstick or any
criterion to go by?
Mr. Empie. Except the estimates that the engineers give us. They
considered that a fair basis.
I might say for your information that these trucks are rented from
Mr. Mclntyre and operated under the direct supervision of the road
engineer.
Air. Steedman. Does the project furnish gasoline for the trucks?
Mr. Empie. I am not sure about that. I could give you a copy of
the contract if you would like to have it.
Mr. Steedman. We would like to have it and will appreciate your
furnishing it for the benefit of the committee.
Mr. Empie. All right, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Why don't you use your own equipment for this
work?
Mr. Empie. I have asked that same question of the road engineer
man}' times in checking up on this equipment, and he has assured me
that he had more work of that natm-e than he can handle with our
equipment. He needs this additional equipment to complete the job
and he has assumed the responsibility for that.
Mr. Steedman. You don't want to assume responsibility for that
contract yourself, do you?
Mr. Empie. Well, I am the contracting officer and I signed the
contract but it was for the benefit of the road engineer, whom I have
to rely upon.
Mr. Mundt. Who is your road engineer?
Mr. Empie. Mr. Lyle Wormock.
Mr. Mitndt. Is he an Ai-my engineer or is he with the Ai-my engi-
neers?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; he is an Indian Service employee, employed
under the Public Works Division, and is under the general supervision
of the chief engineer for the project.
In other words, he is a part of the public works program.
Mr. Steedman. Did you hesitate to sign the contract for these
three tank trucks?
Mr. Empie. Yes sir; on my own judgment. But we have to discuss
those things together and arrive at a mutual understanding about
the prosecution of the program.
Mr. Steedman. You thought it was extravagant, didn't you?
Mr. Empie. I think I did; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Iq furnishing the information about the contract,
the committee would like also to have the amount of money that you
have paid Mr. Mclntyre since the beginning of the project, and we
would like to have those figures broken down by months.
Mr. Empie. All right, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have the authorities at Poston had much trouble
because of the Japanese speeding in Government-owned motor
equipment in and around the project?
8936 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Empie. I would say not; no, sir. We have had a normal
amount of that, I would say.
Mr. Steedman. You have had some?
:vir. Empie. Some, yes. Not any more than the white personnel,
I would say.
Mr. Steedman. Then the white personnel is equally guilty of
speeding with Government equipment in and around the project?
Mr. Empie. I have checked it up on several of them personally and
have found they w ere exceeding the national speed limit of 35 miles an
hour in two or three instances, and I have called it to their attention
and explained that disciplinary action would be taken unless they fell
in line with that policy, not only from a compliance from a national
standpoint, but for the preservation of. the equipment, which is scarce
and hard to get and hard to maintain.
Mr. Steedman. How many new tires have been received at Poston
since the project started?
Mr. Empie. I couldn't say.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have an approximate figure of the new tires
received at Poston?
Mr. Empie. It would be a guess.
Mr. Steedman. All right.
Mr. Empie. T would say maybe 400.
Mr. Steedman. Are those tires obtained through the O. P. A.
rationing board at Parker?
Mr. Empie. No, sir. All of our tires come from the Ordnance
Department, the A'lotor Maintenance Division of the United States
Army.
Mr. Steedman. At Phoenix?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. It is not necessary for you to go through the usual
routine of obtaining tires through the rationing boards?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; not now. We did at the start of the project.
Mr. Steedman. At one time you did have to go tlu-ough the ration-
ing boards in order to secure tires?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you find that to be a rather difficult procedure?
Mr. Empie. Not very; no, sir. They were cooperative. They
inspected the vehicles exactly in the same maimer as any private auto-
mobile would be inspected. The tire numbers were all recorded.
The supply and transportation officer under the authority issued by
the local board, made the inspections and I approved each one of them
individually myself.
Mr. Steedman. Why was the procedure for procurmg new tires
changed?
Mr. Empie. Through the efforts of the W. R. A. in Washington, the
assistance of the Army was solicited and secured in getting rubber for
our use.
Mr. Steedman. Did it develop that there was too much routine for
each and every official of the project at Poston to go through the
rationing board at Parker?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I wouldn't say it was. We worked that out
then on a systematic basis in line with their requirements. As far as
we were concrened, we were getting along all right.
UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8937
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall a Japanese truck driver by the name
of Hasagawa being reported as driving a project truck at 55 miles an
Lour between Foston and Parker?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; that never came to my attention.
Air. Steedman. If such an instance had come to your attention,
what disciplinary action would you have taken against Mr. Hasagawa?
Mr. Empie. 1 would have reported it to his division supervisor and
ask that he be laid ofl' and removed from the pay roll. That has been
done in many instances.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall a strike at Poston that started last
November 18?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Were you there during the strike?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You were there at all times during the strike?
Mr. Empie. All the time, 3'(s; except for the time I am away in
the evening at home.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese police during the strike com-
mandeer the project automobiles without proper explanation to the
dispatcher?
\h\ Empie. The police department was instructed after a 2- or
3-day period to commandeer the equipment and return it to the motor
pool, where it belonged, which they did forthwith.
Mr. AIuNDT. What had happened up to that time that led to the
order to commandeer the equipment?
Mr. Empie. I left tluit u]) to my supply and transportation officer
who was supposed to tai.e care of that, and since he was unable to
do it. I took charge cf it myself. In fact he left about that time when
I needed him the most.
Mr. MuNDT. Did he resign?
Mr. Empie. Sir?
Mr. MuNDT. You mean he quit the job?
Mr. Empie. No; he asked for a leave from the project.
Mr. Steedman. And who was that?
Mr. Empie. Harold H. Townsend.
Mr. Steedman. He asked for annual leave?
Mr. Empie. Yes; he did. He came to me and told me that his wife
was ill and he wanted to know if 1 had any objection to his leaving the
project so he might take her home, and I told him— —
Mr. Costello. Was that at the time of the strike or before the
strike?
Mr. Empie. That was during the strike.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall what day of the strike Mr. Townsend
made that request of you?
JMr. Empie. It was either the 20th or 21st of November.
Mr. Steedman. And the strike had been going on for 2 or 3 davs?
Mr. Empie. It started the 18th.
Mr. Steedman. Did you give Mr. Townsend permission to go to
Los Angeles at that time?
Mr. Empie. He told me that he wanted to leave the project to
bring his wife home.
Air. .'teedman. Wiiere was his home?
Air. Empie. 1 don't know, i don't know; I assumed at the time,
and thinking back over it later, I assumed his home was here in Los
8938 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Angeles because I interviewed him here for the job. I didn't know
where be was going until then.
Mr. MuNDT. Did he leave then on the 20th of 21st?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; and in connection with that I would like to
bring that point out now.
At about that same time I received a long-distance telephone call
from one of our truck drivers who had been dispatched on a mission
away from the project to haul lumber from one of our Indian reserva-
tions. He said that he was broken down at a little town called Selig-
man, Ariz., and needed a head gasket for his car.
I reported that to Mr. Townsend and it developed later that his
trip away from the project to Seligman and return was covered by an
official travel order issued to him for that piu-pose.
Now, when he came back — do you want me to go into this?
Mr. Steedman. When did Mr. Townsend return?
Mr. Empie. He got back about the 25th, as I remember it.
Mr. Steedman. After the strike was over?
Mr. Empie. At about the time it was over. It lasted about a week
and he got back about that time.
Mr. Steedman. Then he was away from the project from the 21st
to the 25th?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do your records indicate the time he was away
from Poston?
Mr. Empie. Yes; they do. He showed the time he was away.
Mr. Steedman. On the official records?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I think they do.
Mr. Steedman. Did you approve a leave card for him when he
left?
Mr. Empie. I don't recall that I signed a leave card, but he had a
certain amount of leave on record about that time. I have looked it
up since.
Mr. Steedman. The regular Government leave system obtains
there, does it not?
Mr. Empie. Yes; it does. When he returned from this trip he
turned in a travel log that we issue to all employees who leave the
project on official business, from which a travel voucher for reimburse-
ment of traveling expenses is prepared by the voucher clerk in the
office.
This log was incomplete to the extent that a voucher could not be
prepared. There was some information missing. The girl in charge
of that work or in charge of writing the vouchers, had such a volume
of work to do she just laid it to one side until she could get some
information about it, and it wasn't until after Mr. Townsend left the
project that it came to my attention that there was something wrong
with that travel log.
When it did come to my attention, it came through the efforts of
the new Supply and Transportation Office, in attempting to get
information to help prepare the voucher.
Mr. Steedman. Who is the new Supply and Transportation officer?
What is his name?
Mr. Empie. F. M. Haverland. ,
Mr. Steedman. What is his salarv?
Mr, Empie. $3,800.
,
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8939
Mr. Steedman. By the way, what was Mr. Towiiseml's salary
when ho went to work at Poston? Do voii recall that?
Mr. Empie. As I recall it was $3,800.'
Mr. Steedman. What was his salary when he left Poston?
Mr. Empie. The same.
Mr. Steedman. Go riijht ahead.
Mr. CosTELLO. \Vhat was the final date of the departure of Mr.
Townsend from the project?
]Mr. Empie. Mr. Townsend's last day of service, including a terminal
leave that he had coming;, was January 2, 1943. When we began to
check nito this trip that he made to Seiigman, it came to our attention,
by going through the credit slips that were issued by the oil companies
from w hom we get gasoline on the service station delivery contract,
that he had been other places than to Seligman and back.
Now, we began to trace his trip then through the use and reference
to these credit slips and found where he had wound up in Oklahoma
City with this Government car. We' traced his trip back from there
down to the project or near the project. The last slip. I think, that
we have a record of. was at Gallup, on his way back^Gallup, N. Mex.
Naturally, that being the case, he had apparently seen fit not to
complete his travel log. I don't know whether he thought we were
going to guess at what happened in order to prepare it and present
it to him for signature. I have never had a chance to talk to him
about it.
Mr. Steedman. Did he submit the travel log under his own sig-
nature?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. Steedman. Requesting payment?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; turned it in for payment.
Mr. Steedman. Was it ever paid?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And did Mr. Townsend travel to Oklahoma City
in a Government-owned automobile?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mp. Steedman. And you have records to substantiate that state-
ment?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Steedman. Are there similar instances at Poston where other
personnel have traveled to other points in Government-owned cars?
;Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You don't know anything about that?
Mr. Empie. Not on private business, that is.
Mr. Steedman. Have you made any investigation to determine
whether or not that is the situation?
Mr. Empie. Yes, I have.
Mr. Steedman. And you are pretty certain there has been none
of that at Poston?
Mr. P^MPiE. You mean by other employees?
Mr. Steedman. Yes. ^ •
Mr. Empie. I think it is pretty safe; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was the voucher submitted by Mr. Townsend in
connection with that trip paid?
Mr. Empie. It couldn't be certified because the facts could not be
stated in voucher form; no, sir.
8940 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. CosTELLO. Have any Japanese been allowed to leave the
reservation in that manner, and taking a Government car and going
some distance and return?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. Ordinarily the only time they would leave the
project in a Government car would be when accompanied by some
white overseer with them?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; on official business some place covered by a
travel log.
Mr, CosTELLO. They would not be able to take a car out of the
camp on their own personal business?
Mr. Empie. No.
Mr. MuNDT. What was the point of importance about this long-
distance telephone call from the fellow who had the broken head
gasket? Was that Townsend?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; it was a man by the name of Max Chavich,
who operated one of our big 'trucks and trailers. He had gone
after lumber. He was operating under Mr. Townsend's direction.
He had gone after the lumber and he called the project and asked for
somebody to bring him the gasket. That part of the trip from Poston
to Seligman and return was official, as far as Mr. Townsend was con-
cerned.
Mr. MuNDT. It was on that trip that Townsend went to Oklahoma
City?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. I understand now; I didn't get the connection.
Mr. Steedman. How long did this trip to Oklahoma by Mr.
Townsend require?
Mr. Empie. Well, he was gone from the 22d. He got back about
the 25th — about 3 days, I guess, there and back.
Mr. Steedman. Was that on the occasion when he told you his wife
was ill and he' wanted to take her home?
Mr. Empie. That was the same time; yes.
Mr. Steedman. And when he left you knew he was taking his wife
home, didn't you?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I did. That is what he told me he was going
to do. I didn't ask him, "Are you going to use a Government car,
and be sure you don't now, because it is against the law." I assumed
that he had his own means of conveyance to take his wife wherever
his home was. I assumed that. I had no knowledge of it.
Mr. Steedman. But you did give him permission to take his wife
home?
Mr. Empie. I gave him permission to leave the project on leave.
He told me that he wanted to take his wife home.
Mr. Steedman. Do you drive a Government-owned car between
the project and your home?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You do?
Mr. Empie. Many of us do that because there are not sufficient
quarters in Poston in which to be housed.
Air. Steedman. And how far is Parker from the relocation center
at Poston?
Mr. Empie. vSixteen miles.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8941
Mr. Steedman. Then you drive 32 miles a day back and forth from
your liome to the center at Poston?
Air. Empie. That is right; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did this man Townsend take the head gasket from
Poston over to thivS other town in Arizona?
Mr. Empie. Yes; he did.
Mr. MuNDT. On his way out of the camp?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And you knew he was going to do that?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Your understanding was
Mr. Empie. Excuse me, but I woukl hke to make it clear that at
the time he came in to see me about leaving, I didn't know that he
was going by the way of Seligman to take this gasket. It wasn't until
afterward that it came out that that was what had happened.
What actually took place was, to be perfectly frank about it and
tell you the sequence of events, when he came back he presented me
with the travel order to cover his official trip from Poston to Seligman
and return, havuig a knowledge of this man up there broken down and
needing a gasket, that part of his travel was approved. I thought it
was all legal.
Mr. MuNDT. And you paid for that part of it?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; it hasn't been paid because it is mixed up in the
other trip.
Mr. MuNDT. At any other time during Mr. Townsend's employ-
ment, did you have any reason to question his veracity?
Mr. Empie. He was always very evasive in response to questions
that I would put to him about various parts of his w^ork. He seemed
to have that manner about him. He was a man that had had no
Government experience before and he was in charge of a responsible
part of my organization and I had'to look to him for a lot of work.
^ Mr. MuNDT. Tell the committee how you happened to hire him.
You say you interviewed him here in Los Angeles?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir, I contacted the recruitment office of the Office
for Emergency Management, 1031 South Broadway, and asked them
to assist me in selecting various people for positions out there that
we hadn't been able to fill by selecting them from the Indian Service
ranks and transferring them there.
Mr. Townsend was interviewed by myself to fill this position. He
deemed to have a good record. I couldn't find a thing wrong with it.
He liad worked for the Indian Service years ago in Oklahoma, around
the 1900's. I don't remember the date. I suppose being an old
Indian Service man myself — —
Mr. MuNDT. He didn't show any evasiveness when you inter-
viewed him the first time?
Mr. Empie. No, he didn't. I w^as well impressed with him, and
Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin were well impressed with him.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you suppose he got that way from contacting the
Japanese out there?
Mr. Empie. I couldn't say.
Mr. MuxDT. Why did you discharge him? Was it because of tliis
trip he made?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I didn't know anything about that at the
time.
62ei;6— 43— vol. 15^ 8
8942 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. \Vhat motivated you to discharge him?
Mr. Empie. Mr. Head and Mr. Gelviii both asked me several times
to dismiss Mr, Townsend.
Mr. MuNDT. Did they give any reason for their request?
Mr. Empie. Yes; they did. He had a very pecuhar way of dealing
with the evacuees. Everything he said to them seemed to stir them
up. He made a lot of flowery talks to them and they had no respect
for him. He couldn't tell them to do anything and rely on them doing
it, because they had no confidence in him, I think, as near as I could
judge.
And during the strike Mr. Townsend was fomenting unrest among
the ranks of the appointed personnel, to use W, R. A. jargon.
Mr. Steedman. What personnel? W. R. A. personnel?
Mr. Empie. That is right, yes; the white people living there.
Mr. Steedman. In what way was he fomenting unrest?
Mr. Empie. He seemed to have an idea that the Japanese people
were going to swoop down on us and going to scalp all of us.
Mr. Steedman. That w^as during the time the Japanese were strik-
ing and walking up and down in front of the administrative buildings?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Steedman. Did you see any marching up and down during the
strike?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. None at all?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. It was a very peaceful strike?
Mr. Empie. I think so, yes; as near as I could make out.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any pictures that were taken during
the strike?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr. Steedman. Does anyone at the center have such pictures?
Mr. Empie. Not that I know of.
Mr. Steedman. Was any Government property destroyed during
the strike?
Mr. Empie. With the exception of about a case of milk, I think
that is all we lost in the whole show.
Mr. Steedman. Will you explain how that happened?
Mr. Empie. It would be just second-hand reports that came to me
through Mr. Townsend, so you can see how I would feel about that.-
He said that some of these boys on the delivery trucks got rambunc-
tious and started throwing milk around.
I did have it reported to me by one of the boys over in the dis-
patcher's office that one of them threw a carton of milk into the side
of the building. That is the only thing I remember.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have any explanation as to why the milk
truck was interrupted? Did they want to direct the delivery of the
milk to some other location other than the commissary?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; except the truck happened to be coming in
about that time. That would be the only explanation that I could
have.
Mr. CosTELLO. Wasn't it because the Japanese were trying to take
over the running of the truck?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Or commandeer the load?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8943
Mr. EivLPiE. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. MuNDT. "W'lio was drivino; the truck? Was it the regular
dairy company driver or was it some camp emplo3a^e?
Mr. Empie. I don't know, Mr. Congressman. I wasn't there.
Mr. MuNDT. What is the customary practice in the delivery of the
milk? Is it delivered by the drivers of the milk company?
Mr. Empie. Yes; they bring the. loads into the camp and it is un-
loaded either onto our delivery trucks or into the reefers until we can
get the trucks up to the reefers and then delivered.
Mr. MuNDT. Then the milk company would probably know who
the driver was?
Mr. Empie. I think so.
Mr. MrxDT. Whether such an event actually took place or not.
Mr. Empie. I have an idea they would.
Mr. Costello. Was any violence shown toward the driver of the
truck?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge. I don't know — I don't
believe so.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated Mr. Tow^lsend was evasive
in discussing his work with you?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedmax. Do j^ou think that was due to the fact that he had
difficult^' expressing himself?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedmax. Was he evasive in the memorandums that he wrote
to you?
Mr. Empie. No; he wrote some pretty good memorandums.
Mr. Steedmax. Pie was pretty direct and frank in writing to you
in his memorandums, was he not?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; he called my attention to many things that
my attention should have been called to and together we tried to do
something about it. I will say this for Mr. Townsend, I thought all
along that he was a very conscientious employee and was trying to
do the best job he could, but I have a feeling yet that he was, in
many respects, very conscientious in his work.
Mr. Steedm.^x. He had been in private business and did not under-
stand Government routine very well; isn't that a fact?
Mr. Empie. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Steedmax. And he wanted these Japanese to work?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedmax. And respect Government property and so on?
Mr. Empie. That is right; he did.
Mr. Costello. We will take a recess for a few minutes.
(Tliereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
You may proceed, Mr. Steedman.
^ Mr. Steedmax. Mr. Chairman, we were discussing the incident on
November 18, 1942, when the Japanese chief of police at Camp No. 1
had some trouble with the dispatcher regarding Government auto-
mobiles at Poston, and since the question has come into the testimony
regarding Mr. Townsend's ability to express himself, I w-ould like to
offer into evidence at this time a copy of a memorandum dated
November 17, 1942, addressed Mr. A. W. Empie, and signed by Mr.
H. H. ToW'Usend.
8944 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
I would like to read that into the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is an actual copy of the original memorandum?
Mr. Steedman. I am so informed, yes. sir. Can you identify this
memorandum, or the substance, of it? [Handing document to the
witness.]
Mr. CosTELLO. You might read it into the record.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
On the night of November 16, as an aftermath of the bulletin No. 1, the Japanese
chief of police of Camp 1 accompanied by a number of officers, again reported
at the impounding lot and in his discussion with the Caucasian dispatcher, among
other unwholesome comments, made the statement that he was not taking any
orders from any * * * white trash.
This matter was also reported to me by one or more of our employees.
That is signed, "H. H. Townsend, supply and transportation officer."
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall such a memorandum?
Mr. Empie. I wouldn't say I didn't get it. I don't remember it.
I remember the instance, however.
Air. Steedman. You remember the incident?
Mr. Empie. Yes; he told me that or I received that.
Mr. Steedman. Was the Japanese chief of police in the habit of
talking to the administrative personnel in such a fashion?
Mr. Empie. He never talked to me that way; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know of any other instances when the
Japanese chief of police talked to the dispatcher in such manner?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge; sir. I can't say because I don't
know exactly.
Mr. Steedman. You say you recall this incident. Did you take
any action against the Japanese chief of police?
Mr. Empie. In this way: That I wondered from time to time
whether he should be the chief of police or not and 1 had several dis-
cussions with Mr. Head about it to try to find out why he thought he
was the man for the job.
Mr. Steedman. What was the name of the Japanese chief of police?
Mr. Empie. Shigakawa.
Mr. Steedman. Is Shigakawa still chief of police?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Wliere is he now?
Mr. Empie. He is out.
Mr. Steedman. Why isn't he the present chief of police?
Mr. Empie. In a reorganization of the police department in unit 1,
he was — I can't say whether he was dismissed or not. That is not my
department, but I understand he is working at some other work now.
Mr. Steedman. W^as he an Issei?
Air. Empie. I don't believe so.
Air. Steedman. But on this occasion no direct disciplinary action
was taken against the chief of police for talking to one of the white
administrative employees in the manner I have described?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
Air. Steedman. It was your information that the chief of police
made this statement to the Caucasian dispatcher, is that correct?
Mr. Empie. I am not sure whether he was supposed to have made
this statement to the dispatcher or to Air. Townsend.
Air. Steedman. Air. Townsend reported to you iil the memorandum
that I read, that he had made the statement to the dispatcher.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTrVITIES 8945
Mr. Empie. I am sorry.
\Ir. Steedman. Would you accept his account of what happened?
Mr. Empie. Yes; I think I would.
Mr. Steedman. Does the project lease trucks from the Japanese?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many have you leased?
Mr. Empie. I think we have leased 15 so far; 2 of them have been
released heaving 13 now on the project.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have or did you have any trucks leased
from the Japanese at the time of the strike?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr, Steedman. Approximately how many?
Mr. Empie. Well, I would say approximately 10.
Mr. Steedman. Did you have trouble controlling the Japanese
leased trucks during the strike?
Mr. Empie. Well, until we had the police department bring every
Jrwck in including the leased equipment, we did; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you later cancel the leases of Japanese equip-
ment due to the trouble that you had with them?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; the trucks were put back in operation after
they were returned to the pool and there was no disturbance about it
at all.
Mr. Steedman. What is the average monthly rental of the Japanese
trucks?
Mr. Empie. Well, I would say approximately the average would be
$125 a month. We had one truck that we paid $175 a month for.
The lowest rental was, I believe, $75 for a three-quarter ton pick-up,
and I would like to say too, that these contracts were not signed until
the rates and the terms of the contracts were inspected and approved
by the Office of Price Administration as to price and terms.
Mr. Mundt. Does that rate include the services of the Japanese
driver?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; that is in addition.
Mr. Mundt. Sometimes a different man drives a truck from the
fellow who owns the truck?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. ^Iundt. And he gets about $19 a month for driving the truck?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; they got $16 — some of them get $16 and
some $19.
Mr. Mundt. Never over $19?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In some of the lease agreements it has been stipu-
lated by the Japanese owners that they shall be the drivers of their
truck?
Mr. Empie. The plan was to have the evacuee who owned the
truck, or some person whom he could trust, to take good care of it
during its service with the Government, would drive the truck.
We explained to them that in case that didn't work out that they
would have to expect the trucks to be driven by the Caucasian person-
nel, the same as any other truck on the property. In other words that
the Government was going to lease the trucks for project business and
they would be used only for project business by anybody whom we
might put on it.
8946 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. But a contract or agreement was signed to that
effect with some of them; that is right?
Mr. Empie. That is right, yes.
Mr. Steedman. That they would drive their own truck?
Mr. Empie. Yes; with that provision in case anything didn't wbrii
out just Uke it should that we would take control of the truck and use it.
Mr. Steedman. At night are these trucks that the Japanese have
leased to the Government and the trucks that they drive, housed in
the pool?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; they are brought into the pool,
Mr. Steedman. All trucks go into the pool every night?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Who conceived the pooling arrangement at Poston?
Mr. Empie. The pool arrangement at Poston was originally a part
of the W. R. A. over-all plan for each project. They provided in then*
organization a motor pool supervisor, and the term ''pooling of motor
equipment" was a W. R. A. term. ^
The first attempt to pool automotive equipment was made by our
first supply and transportation officer, Mr. Roy Potter. And I might
say there that we weren't altogether successful in establishing a pool.
The division head felt that they should have the equipment at their
disposal without going through a pool operator. But it is working out
better now and gradually getting it in operation as it should be.
Mr. MuNDT. What is the average salary of the division heads?
Mr. Empie. Of a division head?
Mr. Mundt. Yes.
Mr. Empie. Iwould say $3,800.
Mr. Mundt. They seem to be a sort of independent class.
Mr. Empie. Sir?
Mr. Mundt. I say they seem to be sort of an independent class.
You have difficulty with them quite often in getting them to carry out
your camp regulations?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; well, it is because they have a program to do
and they are intent on accomplishing it and they want all the facilities
they can get to get the job done.
Mr. Mundt. They are mostly ex-Indian Service employees?
Mr. Empie. The greater percentage; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. We were discussing the speeding of Government
automobiles at Poston, and particularly with reference to the Japanese
who was driving a Government truck between Poston and Parker at
55 miles per hour?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And I beheve you stated that there wasn't very
much speeding there; is that right?
Mr. Empie. Yes; I did say that.
Mr. Steedman. I will hand you a memorandum written on the
stationery of the United States Department of the Interior, Office of
Indian Affairs, field service, Colorado River War Relocation project,
Poston, Ai-iz., dated August 28, 1942, and addressed to Roy Potter,
supply and transportation officer, from A. W. Empie, chief adminis-
trative officer, and purportedly signed by you as chief administrative
officer, "Copy to Mr. Head."
Is this your memorandum? [Handing document to the witness.]
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTlVITLEiS 8947
Air. Empie. Yes, sir; I can tell by the signature it is without
rcadiuo; it.
'Mr. Steedman. This is your signature?
Air. Empie. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. Air. Chairman, I would like to introduce this
memorandum into the record or read it.
Air. CosTELLO. W itliout objection you may read it into the record.
Air. Steedman (reading):
Reference is made to memorandum dated August 19 from George R. Doughtery,
captain, military police headquarters, 323 military police escort, relative to speed-
ing by Japanese driver of truck No. 72059, going between 70 and 75 miles per
hour from Camp 2 to Camp 3.
I am wondering what steps you have taken to penalize persons who have been
caught speeding or traveling in excess of the 40-mile rate which you established
in instructions issued to drivers of all motor vehicles.
As a suggestion I would like to recommend the establishment of a position
to be filled by a person qualified to patrol access highways and highways within
the project area who would be deputized and authorized to arrest anyone found
breaking the speed limit. Such an officer could be equipped with a motorcycle
or a suitable automobile for the purpose of patroling the highways.
Something must be done to stop the abuse of motor equipment. I have
observed from time to time, in fact almost every day, cars and trucks being driven
in excess of 40 miles per hour.
I believe a speed limit on trucks should be less than 40 miles an hour — probably
not to exceed 30 at the most.
Please give me your reaction to this matter and what your plan includes.
A. W. Empie,
Administrative Officer.
Air. Empie. Alight 1 make a statement there. Air. Steedman?
Air. Steedman. Yes.
Air. Empie. For the benefit of the record, I would like to say that
in reviewing what has taken place at Poston during the past year,
and Air. Steedman's question as to whether evacuees had driven
automotive equipment at excessive speeds, the thought immediately
came into my mind that he had reference to driving between Poston
and Parker.
I don't say that I would have recalled this particular instance
because 1 don't know w^hether I would or not if he had said, "within
the camp area or between the three camps," but I do know that we
had trouble at that time with those conditions as that indicates.
Air. Steedman. Are you having the same kind of trouble now?
Air. Empie. Very little. That has been curtailed and I would ssy
as 1 said before, that it is down to a minimum.
Air. Steedman. Are the military police controlling traffic between
the various camps now?
Air. Empie. No, sir.
Air. Steedman. Do they control the traffic between Parker and
Poston?
Air. P^MPiE. No, sir.
Air. Steedman. Who does?
Air. Empie. Our own personnel.
Air. Steedman. What power do they have to control it?
Mr. Empie. Reporting it to the supply and transportation office,
and to me, to decide what disciplinary action shall be taken in case
of excess speed.
Air. Steedman. What authority do you have to mete out dis-
ciplinary action?
8948 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Empie. The administrative determination that a man is guilty
of the offense and a determination as to what the best thing is to do in
the interests of the Government, whether to lay him off, overlook the
fine work that he does for the Government in accomplishing his duties,
or whether he should be summaril}^ dismissed and penalized in that"
manner.
Mr. Steedman. All he has to lose is $19 a month; isn't that right?
Mr. Empie. Yes; that is right. 1 was thinking primarily of the
white personnel when I said "disciplinary action."
Mr. Steedman. You were referring then to the white personnel?
Mr. Empie. Yes; but the same thing, of source, would be true with
the evacuees; and you are right, he would only lose $19 a month so you
don't really — I don't have very much leverage on him.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Eddie Yamamoto?
Mr. Empie. I believe I do.
Mr. Steedman. Is he an expressman there at Poston?
Mr. Empie. Not now, no; he was.
Mr. Steedman. Has he been transferred from Poston to another
relocation center?
Mr. Empie. I couldn't tell you; I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall any trouble which Eddie Yamamoto
had last November with Mrs. Edwards at the Caucasian mess hall
at the Parker Indian Agency?
Mr. Empie. No; I don't. "^
Mr. CosiELLO. Might I interrupt for just a moment. I have an
appointment and I am going to ask Air. Eberharter to take the chair.
(Thereupon, Congressman Eberharter was the acting chairman
during the balance of the morning session.)
Mr. Steedman. You don't recall Eddie Yamamoto having trouble
with Mrs. Edwards at the Indian agency in Parker?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I do not recall it.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall that Eddie Yamamoto, who was
under suspicion at that time by the project, leaving the project in an
unauthorized manner, with six other Japanese, and going to the
Indian agency and forcing Mrs. Edwards to feed them?
Mr. Empie. Now, since you speak of the six others it seems to me
that Mr. Townsend told me about it one time, but I don't remember
any of the details.
Mr. Steedman. Did you take any action against Eddie Yamamoto
after this matter w^as reported to you?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I thought nothing of it — I mean as far as dis-
ciplinary action against him. I thought that would be up to the
project director and it never occurred to me that I should. In other
words
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read into the record
at this point a memorandum dated November 9, 1942, and addressed
to Mr. A. W. Empie, and signed by H. H. Townsend, a copy of which
was sent to Mr. Gelvin, Mr. Head, Mr. Evans, and Mr. Kennedy.
This document was furnished to me by Mr. Townsend and I would
like to read it into the record for the purpose of refreshing Mr. Empie's
recollection on this matter.
Mr. Eberharter. Without objection, that may be done.
Do you have any objection to it being read into the r,ecord, Mr.
Empie?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8949
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I haven't any objection.
Mr. Steedman. I am reading from the memorandum dated Novem-
ber 9, 1942:
I would like to make a report on an irregularity that I discovered in the city
of Parker on the Tth, created by and through Eddie Yamamoto, our express
representative.
While engaged in a hearing with the gasoline and tire rationing board in the
theater building in Parker, I observed truck No. 12 carrying a group of evacuees
idling in front of the theater.
On completion of the meeting I interviewed these men and found that they had
come into the city of Parker with Eddie Yamamoto under his express pass which
provides for himself and express crew. None of these men, however, were em-
ployed with or had been engaged in the express department, and had merely come
to the city of Parker on a shopping tour and other matters which indicated to me
that they had planned to go into the theater when it opened.
They had been in the hardware store making purchases, and the woman there
advised me that she felt under the circumstances compelled to wait on them as
they were operating a commercial institution, but the behavior of the men would
have indicated that they were rather out of line and in a sense created a little
disorderly activity in the store.
When I was advised by these men that P^ddie Yamamoto had gone to the
expriess office and to the Western Truck Lines office, in going there both offices
said that they had not heard of him during the day. I waited at the truck until
he returned, and he advised me that he had brought a box of bread to the Caucasian
mess hall at the Parker Indian Agency.
I checked with the mess hall to determine whether this was an accurate state-
ment, and in talking with Mrs. Edwards, the checker there_, she informed me that
they had intimidated her by demanding that they be given their lunch there,
and in a very nervous state of mind she took their names and did not know what
else to do but to let them eat at the dining room with the other Caucasians
without any pay for their meal. She said that she feared from their actions
that there might be fight in the dining room, and as there were only two men
present, one being a cripple, she thought she had done the right thing in feeding
them. She states that they told her they had been stranded on a broken down
bread wagon and had no other means of getting their lunch. This happened
at 12 o'clock.
In checking with the truck dispatcher's office, they stated that Eddie Yamamoto
had requested a truck for express purposes, and as the regular express trucks
were in use, they assigned him truck No. 12 to take care of this work. This, of
course, was a subterfuge as Eddie Yamamoto was on a suspended basis for a
period of 1 week pending a hearing whether his resignation should be accepted.
This hearing has been prepared by Mr. Kennedy under the late employment
regulations. However, his resignation had been accepted by Mr. Evans and set
aside by myself subject to the employment procedure. After the above infrac-
tions of our regulations, I accepted the resignation of Eddie Yamamoto and at
this time am. arranging with Mr. Kennedy for the selection of a new manager
of our express work. Therefore, I wish that you would cooperate in refusing
any further permits or passes to Eddie Yamamoto.
Mr. Steedman. Do yon recall the instance now?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Steedman. But you made no investigation of Eddie Yama-
moto's conduct over at the Indian agency in Parker or why he was
away from the camp?
Mr. Empie. I discussed that with Mr. Head and asked him if he
had received this memorandum and asked him to cooperate with our
department in restraining the issuance of permits to leave the project
for Parker.
That is trouble that we have had there for sometime and something
that I always thought should be controlled — the movement of the
evacuees from Poston to Parker, because we are in wartime, and I
don't think they had any business up there. I thought they ought to
stay where the project was made for them and avoid creating any
8950 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
dissension between the white residents of Parker and the people at
Poston.
Mr. Steedman. Do the white residents of Parker object to the
Japanese going to Parker?
Mr. Empie. By and large I think that is right; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Were any corrective measures taken as a result of
this memorandum submitted to you by Mr. Townsend, in your subse-
quent conferences with Mr. Head?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. No corrective measures were taken at all?
Mr. Empie. No, sir,
Mr. Steedman. Didn't Mr. Townsend incur the enemity of the
Japanese by reporting such instances as the one which I have just read?
Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know whether you could say it was
through that. It might be said that that was a contributing factor.
I am not able to say. I don't know what they were thinking about
him, but I could see where the}^ would feel that way about him.
Mr. MuNDT. That would be a natural reaction, wouldn't it?
Mr. Empie. Yes; it would.
Mr. Eberharter. Did the six men who accompanied Yamamoto
to Parker have passes?
Mr. Empie. I don't know, sir; not being familiar with the issuance
of the passes to the. evacuees. I never had anything to do with it and
I just couldn't say about that.
Mr. Eberharter. I think it would be important to know whether
or not they were a. w. o. 1. — the six men who were on this express
truck. You would consider that important, wouldn't you, Mr.
Empie?
Mr. Empie. I considered it so; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Who has charge of those passes?
Mr. Empie. Mr. Head.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Head directly?
Mr. Empie. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Has there been any trouble between the soldiers
who are stationed close to Parker and the evacuees?
Mr. Empie. Do you mean the military police escort near by the
camp?
Mr. Steedman. No. I am referring to th3 United States Army
soldiers who go into Parker, and the evacuees who have gone into
Parker shopping or to go to the theater?
Mr. Empie. I don t know whether there was any occurrence or not.
There might have been one instance. I will tell you tliis much about
it, that Mr. Townsend often reported to me and tried to impress upon
the administration, I will say, including Mr. Head, the importance of
keeping the evacuees out of Parker on account, as he pointed out many
times, of the soldiers being in town. He thought there might be some
incident come up there that would lead into trouble and he did stress
that.
Mr. Mundt. You thought those recommendations were sound and
well advised?
Mr. Empie. Yes; I do. I felt that way myself.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman I would like to I'ead into the
record a memorandum which was furnished me by Mr. Townsend,
dated November 7, 1942, which was addressed to Mr. Wade Head,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8951
from Mr. H. H. Townsend, supply and transportation officer, a copy
havins; been sent to Captain Dougherty of the 323 mihtary pohce.
Mr. Eherhaktp:r. Without objection it may be read into the record.
Do yoii lu^ve any objection, Mr. Empie?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
This is to inform you that six of the afternoon crew of the Parker warehouse left
the warehouse area between the hours of 6 and 8 o'clock, drove to Parker, parked
their truck in the area across from the business houses, and were kept in the truck
by the soldiers who stood in the road and threw rocks at them.
They were not allowed to leave their truck as has been their habits previously.
There was one man left at the warehouse for the escort to bring to Poston until
the other members of this crew were picked up under these conditions.
That is signed: H. H. Townsend,
Supply and Transportation Officer.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall that instance?
Mr. Empie. No, I don't. I am not saying it didn't happen because
we had reports, similar reports from time to time.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know a Japanese named Shingto Yoshida?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; how do you pronoimce his last name?
Mr. Steedman. Yoshida — Y-o-s-h-i-d-a.
Mr. Empie. It seems to me that there was a Yoshida — it may be a
different name. I can't get along with the Japanese names so well.
It seems to me that there was a Yoshida who was confined in tfie jail
during the strike. It might have been him but I don't know. I
thought his name was Ucliida. I am not certain.
Mr. Steedman. Uchida w^as the Japanese that was involved in
one of the beatings?
Mr. Empie. That is a different one then.
Mr. Steedman. Is that correct?
Mr. Empie. That is my understanding.
Mr. Steedman. I am referring to a Shingo Yoshida. You don't
recall him?
Mr, Empie. I don't know him. I wouldn't know him if I saw him.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read into the record
at this point a memorandum addressed to Mr. A. W. Empie, dated
November 17. 1942, from Mr. H. H. Townsend, which was furnished
me by Mr. Townsend.
Mr. Eberharter. If there is no objection it may be read into the
record.
Mr. Empie. I have no objection.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
On November 11, 1942, one of our sanitation drivers under Mr. Connor, named
Shingo Yoshida, was .not successful in receiving the truck or equipment he felt
had been promised to him at the time he expected it, and he told Mr. Connor
that he was a G. D. liar, that the whole outfit were damned liars and informed
another of the drivers of the sanitation trucks that if he didn't quit, they would
beat him up.
Mr. Connor took Mr. Shingo Yoshida to the employment office and in the
presence of the Japanese employment officer who was preparing a release, called
Mr. Connor a G. D. liar and made such other statements as caused the employment
officer to ask him to leave.
This matter was reported to me by Mr. Connor and confirmed by others.
That memorandum is signed, "H. H. Townsend, supply and trans-
portation officer."
8952 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIDS
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall this incident?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know Mr. Connor?
Mr. Empie. Yes, I do.
Mr. MuNDT. And who is he?
Mr. Empie. There were two Mr. Connors there that Mr. Town-
send got from Los Angeles — somewhere up here, some people that he
'knew formerly. One of them was employed as one of the escorts to
escort the trucks between Poston and Parker, and the other one, his
father, he put in charge of the rubbish-disposal crew.
Mr. MuNDT. Are both the Connors still with you?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Neither one of them?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Did they quit when Townsend left?
Mr. Empie. Soon after, yes. Mr. Townsend had people there
that I gave him authority to employ on his O. K. We had success
"after Mr. Townsend left in employing evacuees to do the work that
we thought appointed personnel should do.
Mr. Steedman. Have you advocated that Caucasian employees
be replaced by Japanese employees at the Poston Center?
Mr. Empie. I think I have at times; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You gave a statement to the Poston Chronicle to
that effect; is that correct?
Mr. Empie. I don't remember whether I did or not. I probably
did. Am I expected to remember all these things as they occurred
back over the year? There has been a lot of things happen there,
you know.
Mr. Steedman. If you don't recall, you can say that you don't
recall.
Mr. Empie. Well, I don't recall, but it is a little bit misleading, I
think, to put me on the spot lil^e that.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Empie, we have no disposition whatever to
put you on the spot. We- are merely asking if you received these
memoranda and when you seem to be in doubt, have asked permission
to refresh your recollection by reading them to you.
Mr. Eberharter. In that connection I might say to the witness
that it will be up to the committee to determine whether or not
these incidents are of such importance as you should or, should not
remember them. You do not need to feel any embarrassment, but
we would like for you to remember, of course, everything that you
possibly can.
Mr. Empie. All right, sir. I would like to say m that comiection
that I have a complete record at the project office of all the memo-
randums I wrote, and it is open to inspection, the same as any other
Government, office is, and I hope it shows I was trying to do my best
to carry out the duties and responsibilities assigned to me.
Mr. Eberharter. If there is anything that you want the commit-
tee to put into the record from your records, if you will just indicate
it, we will determine whether or not it shall go in the record, and I
think we wifi be very liberal in allowing you to put in anything you
care to from the records in your office. You will have the opportunity
of presenting everything you care to.
Mr. Empie. Thank voii.
Uk-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8953
Mr. Steedman. I liand you page 3 of the Poston Chronicle, dated
Sunday, Docenibor 13, 1942, and ask you if that is a copy of the
paper tliat is published by the Japanese at Poston?
(Handing document to the witness.)
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I think that is right.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am quoting from the Poston
Chronicle, dated December 13, 1942, in regard to the question I have
just asked Mr. Empie with reference to the replacing of Caucasian
personnel by the Japanese.
I quote:
QUALIFIED EVACUEES MAY REPLACE CAUCASIAN PERSONNEL
Mr. Empie told the block managers that he sees no reason why evacuees can-
not replace Caucasians in positions where colonists are qualified.
The managers cited examples where Caucasian personnel could be replaced,
conducive to efficiency in operation of the project. They recommended qualified
men for some of the positions which could be replaced by evacuees.
Mr. Empie. Might I have an opportunity to explain in what
manner that was?
Mr. Steedman. Yes, go right ahead.
Mr. Empie. In keeping with a W. R. A. policy, the policy of the
Bureau of the Budget in allotting this money to us, we were under
instructions to employ as many Japanese people m these positions as
possible.
We have been criticized many times by representatives of the In-
dian Office, under whose direction we work directly, for having too
many appointed personnel on the pay roll, and they have thought
that we should be able to staff more of our positions with the Japanese
people.
It has been very difficult for me to draw a line of demarcation be-
tween whether a particular position should be filled by an evacuee or
a white person. You have to determine that as you go along, but
where we can find qualified evacuees, we reduce the expenditures of
the Government when we put him in charge of the work rather than
employ some white person at high salary.
So. naturally, it is our aim to do that in keeping with our budget
requirements. There have been instances where I felt that for suc-
cessful and economic operation of the project the position should be
staffed by an appointed personnel Or employee, because of his general
knowledge that maybe the evacuee didn't have of that particular
line of work; but that was the aim, to employ as many evacuees in
these positions as possible.
Mr. Eberharter. Would you care to tell us how much progress
you have made in the replacement of Caucasian personnel by the
Japanese? Has that been accelerated in the last month or two?
Mr. Empie. No, it has not. It has more or less stabilized. A few
positions, I would say, probably, 15 or 20 positions altogether during
the course of operating the project — during the year — have been
filled by evacuees.
Mr. MuNDT. I think you said those suggestions came from the
Indian administration. Did you misspeak yourself? Did they
come from the W. R. A.?
. Mr. Empie. It is the basic policy of the W. R. A. and Bureau of
the Budget and, naturally, has to be a basic policy of the Indian
Service.
8954 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Just how far into the detail of the administcatiori of
the Center does the Indian Office reach?
Mr. Empie. The Indian Office is our immediate central office. We
are all Indian Service employees and we deal through the Indian
Service central office for all our money and our regulations as to the
operation of all of our project features — that is, including accounting
system, procurement procedure, and all of those things.
Mr, MuNDT. Who approves the menus? The Indian Office or the
W.R. A.?
Mr. Empie. No, the W. R. A.
Mr. MuNDT. Is there any evidence of confusion as a result of this
divided responsibility between W. R. A. and the Indian Office?
Mr. Empie. I think so; yes, sir. The way I ha.ve tried to operate
it in my particular office is to, since I was charged with the responsi-
bility of getting things done in a hurry, which, by the way, L have
attempted to do, in accordance — strictly in accordance — with the
Government regulations governing appointment, procurement, and
accounting procedure, was to take advantage msofar as possible of
the sources of supply that W. R. A. had to offer as well as the Indian
Service, to get the over-all job completed as quickly as possible.
Mr. MuNDT. Don't you think that you could operate a little better
if you had just one boss in Washington, regardless of whether it was
the Indian Office or the W. R. A.? That would be immaterial, but
wouldn't it be better if there was a focusing of authority in one office?
Mr. Empie. No question about it. I have felt it more keenly than
in any other office on account of all the Budget work being handled in
my office.
Mr. MuNDT. It would be easier for you to know that you are doing
the thing Washington wanted if you had just one set of employers,
wouldn't it?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Eberharter. If this is a good place to stop, I think we may
as well take our luncheon recess until 2 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 12:30 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., of the
same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(Thereupon, at 2 p. m., the committee reconvened, pursuant to the
noon recess.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will please be in order, and you will
proceed with the questioning, Mr. Steedman.
TESTIMONY OF AUGUSTUS W. EMPIE— Resumed
Mr. Steedman. When the conunittee recessed for lunch, we were
discussing the possibility of the Japanese stealing gasoline from
Government automobiles. Have you investigated that possibility?
Mr. Empie. Yes, I have.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know of any instances where the Japanese
were stealing gasoline from Government-owned automobiles?
Mr. Empie. Yes, I do.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please cite to the committee any instances "
of that sort?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITLEiS 8955
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. Mr. Townsend reported to me that an auto-
mobile operated by the Community Enterprise Division of the proj-
ect— one of the evacuees was seen taking gasohne from one of the
Government-owned cars and putting it into a 5-gaUon bottle.
He, Mr. Townsend, and the fire-protection officer, Mr. Joe Fein,
followed the evacuees to their barracks and took possession of the
gasoline. He reported that to me in person; whereupon I brought this
to the attention of the Chief of Agriculture and Industry Division,
Mr. H. A. Mathieson, and also to Mr. R. G. Fister, who is in immediate
charge of the Community Enterprise Division.
I also discussed this later with Mr. Gelvin and brought to his atten-
tion at that time that this was one of the frequent incidents that were
coming to our attention that we felt we should do something about.
We needed more assistance from all the divisions to control the use
of the equipment and the use of gasoline and so forth.
After reporting it to Mr. Gelvin 1 considered my part of the work
done. As to the net result as to what was accomplished, I don't know
in that particular case whether they brought that up before the local
police officers or not.
I have often felt that there was plenty of opportunity for the
evacuees to take gasoline if they wanted to, and if we had all the equip-
ment in the pool there would be no opportunit}^ for them to do that.
Mr. Steedman. Have you made a check recently with reference to
the Japanese stealing gasoline?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. I think it can be said that Mr. Haverland,
the present supply and transportation officer, has been patrolling that
very carefully and Mr. Barrett, his assistant, has been working with
him.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have records of the amount of gasoline
that has been stolen from project cars?
Mr. Empie. Not the cars themselves, but we do have a record of
tampering with the tanks where gasoline is dispensed. We kept a
very careful check on daily gallonage taken out of those pumps to be
sure we would get down to the source of it.
Mr. Steedman. How much gasoline has been taken out of the
pumps?
Mr. Empie. It would be an estimate on my part. Ofthand I don't
know. Probably 100 gallons in small quantities.
Mr. Steedman. It has been taken only in small quantities?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Has any effort been made to apprehend the persons
who were stealing gasoline?
Mr. Empie. I think it can be said yes.
Mr. Steedman. Who made the effort to apprehend them?
Mr. Empie. Mr. Haverland and Mr. Barrett.
Mr. Steedman. Has anybody been apprehended and brought before
the camp officials as yet?
Mr. Empie. Except in this way — not any particular person, no, sir.
Mr. Steedman,. Do any of the Japanese at Boston have sugar
ration books?
Mr. Empie. I don't believe they do now. I think we collected aU
those.
Mr. Steedman. Did they at one time have sugar ration books?
Mr. Emfie. It is my understanding at one time they did; yes.
8956 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Did the camp authorities collect those?
Mr. Empie. I didn't; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Who did?
Mr. Empie. I think the management did.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how many Japanese had sugar-ration-
ing books?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know who would have that information?
Mr. Empie. Mr. L. L. Nelson, executive assistant to Mr. Head.
Mr. Steedman. Was it your information that they were using the
sugar-ration books and at the same time taking their meals at the
camp cafeterias?
Mr. Empie. Were the evacuees doing that?
Mr. Steedman. That is right.
Mr. Empie. I suppose that was true if they had them because they
have always eaten at the project mess halls.
Mr. Steedman. We have discussed here today a number of instances
where Japanese have been guilty of irregularities afid you have stated
that on a number of occasions no disciplinary action had been taken
with regard to irregularities committed by Japanese. Why is that?
Mr. Empie. Well, if you will permit me to say so, I believe the rec-
ord will show that in many instances in the abuse of equipment, we
have laid them off on that account.
That is about the only disciplinary action we have — laying them
off the job.
Mr. Steedman. Is there a laxity in discipline at the center insofar
as the Japanese are concerned?
Mr. Empie. Well, if you want my personal opinion, I believe so.
Mr. Steedman. You believe so?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I believe that with a little firiiier control, a
little firmer and decisive action in directing it, that it would be a lot
different.
Mr. Steedman. Who is at fault?
Mr. Empie. I think that is a matter for someone else to decide.
Mr. Steedman. Does the social-welfare department enter into that
picture?
Mr. Empie. Insofar as delinquencies are concerned.
Mr. Steedman. I am referring now to the lack of discipline at the
center.
Mr. Empie. Well, from my personal viewpoint, I believe so.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think the activities of Dr. Powell and Miss
Eindley interfere with the discipline at the center?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Steedman. In what ^yay?
Mr. Empie. I have had occasion to believe that, while there were
many things that the community services branch of our organization
had charge of and needed to do to protect the welfare of the com-
munity, that there were many things that persons in that branch
advocated that didn't accrue to the benefit of the Government nor in
the end to the benefit of the evacuees themselves.
Mr. Steedman. For instance?
Mr. Empie. It is difficult for me to cite just how or in what way
that could culminate in that end result, but I think it can best be
expressed by saying that they were in manj'^ instances, carrying the
torch for the evacuees.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8957
Mr. Steedman. That is the social-service department was carrying
the torch for the ovacuees?
Mr. P^BEKHAKTEK. What is that?
Mr. Empie. Carrying the torch for the evacuees. I think, how-
ever, it is very sincere on their part; a sincere feehng that as repre-
sentatives of th.e Government, having been assigned the responsibility
to help look after these people during this period of crisis, it is up to
them to make the tenure as pleasant for them as possible and to as
adequately as possible provide for them.
They point out that these people were evacuated from their homes
and the Government owes them the food, clothing, and shelter and as
good treatment as they can possibly give them, and since they didn't
have recreation facilities within the camp area, they felt perfectly
free to use equipment to lake them on picnics. x\nd they have peti-
tioned the project director to let them go to nearby towns and benefit
from the opportunity to shop there. That is their side of their picture.
Mr. Steedman. Who is the head of the social service branch of the
cent(U'?
Mr. Empie. Until very recently Miss Nell Findley was the chief of
the community services branch.
Mr. Steedman. And what was her salary?
Mr. Empie. $.5,600.
Mr. Steedman. Did you see her personnel papers when she came
to work at Post on?
Mr. Empie. No; I didn't.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever examined her personnel papers?
Mr. Empie. No; I didn't. That appointment was made under the
immediate direction of Mr. Collier himself, the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs.
Mr. Steedman. She was sent to the project at Poston from Wash-
ington, was she not, as a special case?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; she came from Honolulu.
Mr. MuNDT. Was Dr. Powell also picked by Mr. Collier?
Mr. Empie. I don't know, Mr. Congressman, whether he was or
not. I don't believe so.
Mr. MuNDT. Dr. Powell has the educational responsibility and Miss
Findley had the social responsibility, is that light?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; Dr. Powell was in immediate charge of what is
called the welfare and recreation division. Dr. Miles Carey was the
director of education.
Mr. Steedman. Miss Findley was sort of a special case insofar as
her personnel records were concerned, is that correct?
Mr. Empie. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Did you have the personnel records of the other
project employees in your office?
Mr. Empie. I think the greater percentage of them; yes, sir.-
Mr. MuNDT. Is Miss Findley still at the project?
Mr. Empie. No, su-; she has gone back to Honolulu.
Mr. MuNDT. Did she resign voluntarily?
Air. Empie, Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Recently?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. How recently?
Mr. Empie. Effective May 20, I beheve.
62G26— 4.3 — vol. 15 9
8958 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Last May?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. In line with our discussion this morning about this
dual responsibility between the W. R. A. and the Indian Office, was
Miss Findley primarily responsible to the Indian Office in her ac-
tivities?
Mr. Empie. Yes; well, pardon me, through the project director.
Mr. MuNDT. She was carrying out the policies of the Indian Office.
Would it be a fair statement to say that her policies were primarily
the policies of the Indian Office rather than the policies of the W. R. A.?
Mr. Empie. It can be said that the policy which she attempted to
carry out was in strict conformity with the policies of the Indian
Office.
Mr. MuNDT. And what would happen if her policies ran into con-
flict, as they apparently did, with some of the policies of the W. R. A.?
"Whose policies would predominate?
Mr. Empie. Those of the Indian Office.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you familiar with any of the other relocation
camps other than the one at Poston?
Mr. Empie. Not so very familiar. I visited the Gila project one
time but aside from that all I have is second-hand knowledge.
Mr. MuNDT. Do they have social-welfare workers at .the other
camp also?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. In all other camps the social-welfare workers are
under the direction of the W. R. A.?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. But this is an exception at Poston?
Mr. Empie. Well, that is true in the operation of the whole project;
yes. sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did Miss Findley consider herself as being under
the administrative jurisdiction of Mr. Head?
Mr. Empie. Absolutely.
Mr. wSteedman. Do you know of any occasions when Miss Findley
overruled instructions issued by Mr. Head?
Mr. Empie. I know at various times when she disagreed with his
policy. How they worked it out together, I am not aware.
Mr. Steedman. But her ideas prevailed, did they not?
Mr. Empie. I wouldn't say altogether; no, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Was Mr. Head selected by Mr. Collier also?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you be sufficiently familiar with the operation
of the other camps to be able to. define the manner in which the
social-welfare work at your camp deviates from the work being con-
ducted at the other camps?
Mr. Empie. It would be an opinion based on just my feeling about it.
Mr. MuNDT. If you care to I would be happy to have you express
your opinion.
Mr. Empie. I believe it was operated much in the same manner as
we have operated ours — along the same genei-al over-all policy, since
we are following the administrative instructions that are supposed to
be followed at all other camps.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words, do you think the social-welfare
workers in all these camps carry the torch for the evacuees to the
extent that, apparently, Miss Findley at Poston did?
tnsr-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8959
Mr. Empie. Well, I wouldn't be able to say on that. I don't know.
I have never had any information to that effect.
Mr. MuNDT. Has anybody replaced Miss Findley in the camp at
Poston since she resigned?
Mr. Empie. No, sir. To my understanding the plan is not to fill
that position but have Dr. Powell look after the whole thing.
Mr. MuxDT. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. Was Miss Findley allowed to resign?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Were her services satisfactory?
Mr. Empie. As far as I loiow. I have no reason to believe other-
wise, so far as the general over-all requirements of the Director were
concerned.
Mr. Steedm.\n. Mr. Townsend had a little difficulty with Miss
Findley, did he not?
;Mr. Empie. I think he did; yes. He told me that he had at one
time about the use of some equipment that she thought should be
used to take the evacuees on an outing, but he didn't agree with her.
Mr. Mundt. By the way, going back to Tow^nsend again: After
you discovered that he had apparently n\isused Government property
and filing a false claim for expenses because he had gone to Oldahoma
City instoad of somewhere else, were any steps taken to take legal
action against Air. Townsend for that violation of the Federal law?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Wliat is the status of the case now?
Mr. Empie. I reported it first to a representative of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation and he advised me to discuss it with the
United States attorney for Ai"izona, which I did.
After discussing the matter at considerable length with him, he told
me that inasmuch as I couldn't prove the nature of the files that Mr.
Townsend had taken from our office and the fact that only recently
Congi'ess had attempted to pass a law making it a misdemeanor to
use Government equipment on personal business, that he didn't
think he could convict him and he told me to proceed on the basis that
it was an administrative matter. And I am still trying to do that.
That is the present status. I might add there that due to the press
of business I have yet to inform Mr. Townsend of what the records
indicate and why some of these vouchers can't be paid, and due to the
fact that he turned in these tickets charged back that he turned in — •
these tickets charged against our account and the Government has
paid for that, that he is considered, from an accountable officer's
standpoint, a certifying officer's standpoint, to be in arrears to the
United States, and until that account is offset, it will be impossible
for him to get money which he can now consider due him.
That is made up of two salary checks and the amount of several
travel vouchers that are being held.
Mr. SteeDxMan. As a matter of fact haven't all the employees who
had any difficulty with Miss Findley at Poston, been subsequently
dismissed from their positions?
; Mr. Empie. I can't say that that is true.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know of any other instance where an
employee, who had trouble with Miss Findley, was later dismissed
from his position?
Mr. Empie. I might know it but I don't recall offhand.
8960 UNrAMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read a memorandum
into the record, dated December 10, 1942, addressed to Mr. A. W.
Empie. This memorandum was furnished me by Mr. Townsend.
Air. CosTELLO. Is there any objection to that, Mr. Empie?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. It is so ordered.
Mr. Steedman. I am quoting:
For the sake of the record, a resuir6 of facts covering Miss Findley's request
for additional car for two evacuees to go to Kingman. On December 8, 1942,
at 4:15 p. m. a representative of Miss Findley's office called and stated that Miss
Findley wanted a car to take two evacuees to Kingman.
Mr. Steedman. How far is Kingman from Poston?
Mr. Empie. I believe it is about 110 miles, I am not sure.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
I advised him that two trucks had left during the early morning with 15
evacuees and their baggage and asked why they had not been included m this
shipment.
The facts covering that trip were that Miss Findley had r(?quested from me the
previous day to arrange to have two trucks available at 5:30 a. m. on December
8 to move 15 evacuees and their baggage to Kingman, Ariz. I was compelled
to take Mr. Mosley and Mr. Collins, two of our night dispatchers, from their
positions to drive these trucks. These men collected the baggage and left here
in the early morning hours for this assignment.
I told the representative that I felt that it would be impossible to secure addi-
tional transportation or a driver and that I would be unable to authorize the
additional trip without some authority, as I felt it was a mistake to run addi-
tional equipment on the same mission so few hours between. He left the office
and in a few minutes Miss Findley returned somewhat perturbed over being
opposed on the issue. She stated that it was our duty to move the^ evacuees
regardless of how or where or when or under what circumstances and I advised
her that the trip would cost us probably $50, and she stated that it didn't make
any difference if it cost twice as much.
i asked her why these people weren't included in the trip and she stated that
their permits had not arrived. 1 stated that I felt that the others should have been
held a few hours until the permits had arrived.
She said she would take the matter up with Mr. Head and 1 said it was per-
fectly all right and stated that it would be necessary to receive authorization from
Mr. Head or yourself before I would feel at liberty to send another car diie to the
shortage of gasoline and the attempt to save rubber.
She left the office to go to Mr. Head's office and I left to give you the information
regarding the matter. When 1 went in your office Miss Findley was there and I
told her that I was glad she was there as it was a matter that you should decide
upon.
She made the statement that she would go to Mr. Head and tell him that I
refused to obey his orders. I stated that that was not the truth, that I had not
refused to obey his orders, tliat I did not feel under the circumstances that any
of us were justified in view of the shortage of gasoline to take trips of this nature
without using every precaution and I didn't believe that the administration would
feel otherwise.
I also stated that it was only a matter of time until our allotment of gasoline
was consumed and that most of us would have to walk and whereas at this time
we had plenty, most of us felt that it wasn't necessary to use any care or discretion
in how it was used.
She parted by saying that she expected to get the authorization to leave and I
said that I was sure that she would and that I was glad to be relieved of the
responsibility of the seemingly unnecessary additional trip when they should have
all gone together.
That is signed: "H. H. Townsend, Supply and Transportation
Officer."
Mr. Steedman. Did Miss Findley get the authorization for the
evacuees to make the trip from Poston to Kingman?
Mr. Empie. She got that from Mr. Head.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8961
Mr. Steedman. But she did not G:ot it from you?
Mr. Empie. No, sir. I felt the same way Mr. Townsend did at out it.
Mr. Steedman. Do the wareiiouses at Poston come under your
jurisdiction?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in charg-e of the warehouses?
Mr. Empie. Mr. E. S. Wickersham, under the supervision of the
Supply and Transportation Officer.
^fr. Steedman. Have articles been removed from the warehouses in
an improper manner by the Japanese and the Caucasian employees?
Air. Empie. Our records show that in dollar value not to exceed,
approximately, $200 in goods have been removed without requisition
from the warehouses.
We have a record of that which is on file and which is to be disposed
of in accordance with our property regidations.
Mr. Steed^ian. You are referrmg to individual cases of $200 worth
of materials missing?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; all told.
Mr. Steedman. You have had a total of $200 worth of missing
materials?
Mr. Empie. Except for lumber. We have had a lot of lumber
taken down there. That is a part of our warehouse stock. I will
say that everybody has tried to control that in some manner or
another. This amount that I speak of is aside from the lumber.
Mr. MuNDT. What do you estimate would be the dollar value of
lumber which has been stolen?
Mr. Empie. Approximately $15,000 on the basis of $50 a thousand — ■
300,000 board feet. And I would like to bring out at this point for
the record, that the conception of the evacuees about taking this
lumber is that inasmuch as the Government didn't furnish the barracks
with anything at all in the way of furniture, that they have a perfect
right to go and get this lumber and use it to build shelves and cup-
boards and chairs and tables and things of that kind, and that is what
it has all been used for, so far as I know.
Mr. MuNDT. That was all stolen by the Japanese and not by the
whites?
Mr. Empie. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you think perhaps. Miss Findley may have sup-
ported this conception on the part of the Japanese?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. You tliink she did?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir, because she always maintained that as long as
the}^ didn't remove it from the project, they weren't stealing it. I
disagreed with her openly and before.
]\Ir. MuNDT. There might be an extenuating situation there from
the standpoint of the Japanese since they were getting that kind of
advice from one of the project employees — white employees.
Mr. Empie. I think so, yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. I quite agree with you if somebody on the project was
winking at it and even encouraging it that there should not be too
much blame held against the Japanese for doing that.
Mr. Empie. That is the way I felt about it.
Mr. MuNDT. And I am also sort of glad that Miss Findley has gone
back to Honolulu.
8962 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Did Miss Findley leave the project voluntarily or
was she dismissed?
Mr. Empie. She left voluntarily.
Mr. Steedman. Did Miss Findley leave the project after this
investigation started?
Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know when it started, Mr. Steedman.
She left about the 15th of May. Now, you would know what the
dates are — I don't. I can check that date for you if you would like
to have it.
Mr. Steedman. I wish you would.
Mr. MuNDT. May I ask whether any of the other white personnel
supported this position of the Japanese, that since the lumber was
there and they needed it to furnish their houses, they were entitled
to steal it?
Mr. Empie. That is putting it pretty bluntly but I think there
were others, yes, that felt that way about it.
Mr. MuNDT. Was Dr. Powell among those?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Was Mr. Head among those?
Mr. Empie. I have never heard him express himself on that.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you hear him condemn the practice or didn't
you hear him express himself either way?
Mr. Empie. I can't say that I have heard him condemn the prac-
tice, no, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. No effort was made to punish the Japanese, was there?
I mean you would not have any difficulty finding out who did take
the lumber because there would be a new shelf or a new table and so
it wouldn't be very hard even for an inexperienced investigator to find
out who did it, but no attempt was made to punish them?
Mr. Empie. They have been seen carrying the lumber.
Mr. MuNDT. And no attempt was made to stop them?
Mr. Empie. By various people who had brought the lumber for
other purposes and was trying to preserve it for those purposes.
Mr. MuNDT. And there has been no punishment of any kind?
Mr. Empie. No.
Mr. MuNDT. And no deductions from the wages of those who
worked?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Or curtailed rations?
.Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Or a day in the camp jail or anything of that kind?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In what manner are the records of the warehouses
kept?
Mr. Empie. The first warehouse records begin with the preparation
of a receiving document and they are numbered consecutively from
the inception of the project to date.
From these receiving documents stores record cards are posted and
show the quantities and the totals received — of the total quantity
received and the dollar value.
The receiving document then goes into the unpaid bill file awaiting
the submission by the vendor of his invoice and execution of the
voucher in payment thereof.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8963
Material and supplies issued from the warehouse are issued on the
basis of approveil retjuisitions, initiated by the p(>rson responsible in
the division desiring; the materials for his use, approved by the division
head or someone whom the division head has authorized to sign for
him, and presentation to the warehouse office for filling.
Mr. Stkedman. Are Japanese employed in the warehouses?
Mr. Kmpie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many Caucasian employees are employed in
the warehouses?
Mr. Empie. a total of seven.
Mr. Steedman. White employees?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And how many Japanese employees are employed
in the warehouses?
Mr. Empie. Including those engaged in the maintenance of sub-
sistence warehouses, 73.
Mr. Steedman. Are Japanese in charge of keeping the records in
the warehouses?
Mr. Empie. Not in charge; no, sir. That is all supervised by white
persons who direct the work of the evacuees.
I might add there for your information, that in connection with the
W. R. A. policy to use evacuees on all this work, we attempt to do
that, and diametrically opposed to that policy is their policy to
relocate the evacuees and, consec}uently, we find ourselves in a cross-
fire trying to get the job done with people that we are supposed to use
and still they are supposed to go out. We can't do both and it is a
continual turn-over. It is a program which is really strenuous to
say the least.
Mr. Steedman. About the time j^ou get a man trained to do the
work, he is then released to go out into the Middle West?
Mr. Empie. That is right, yes. That has happened in many
instances.
Mr. Mundt. Don't the same officials at the camp who select these
men for service in the camp, also pass upon who is to be evacuated
and who is not?
Mr. Empie. No, sir, I don't believe it can be said that that is true
entirely. The greater percentage of the evacuees have applied for
indefinite leave. They don't know when they are going out. Many
of th(>m have applied for indefinite leave so that when the right oppor-
tunity comes they will be ready to go, but they don't know whether
they want to go or not. They are watching the newspapers to see
whether they are going out or not.
Mr. Mundt. Do you have anything to do with determining when
they leave the camp?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Or who goes from the camp?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. You have nothing whatsoever to do with that?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. You have nothing to do with the leave-taking aspects
of it?
Mr. Empie. Absolutely nothing.
Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese take the inventories in the
warehouses?
8964 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Empie. No, sir. That is done — except to assist in it, that is '
all done under the direct supervision of the white personnel.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever called in any outsiders to take an
inventory of the warehouses?
Mr. Empie. Such as public accountants, for instance?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
(No answer.)
Mr. Steedman. Have you called in any of the other project em-
ployees who were not employed in the warehouses to inventory the
warehouses?
Mr. Empie. Yes, we have in some instances. We find ourselves
in this position: At the end of the month we have such a volume of
work to do we gather up various members of the organization, some
representatives from the steward s office, and others, to go in and help
take the inventory so that as of midnight on the 31st of the month
we will be able to figure our quantities on hand.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I have a copy of a memorandum
dated December 16, 1942, addressed to Mr. A. W. Empie, from H. H.
Townsend. This memorandum was furnished me by Mr. Townsend
and I would like to read it into the record at this time.
Mr. Costello. Are you familiar with this memorandum, Mr.
Empie?
Mr. Empie. I don't know; I suppose I am.
Mr. Steedman. You have no objection to it, have you?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Costello. You may read it into the record at this point.
Mr. Steedman. It has reference to the inventory being taken at
the warehouses, and is as follows:
Reference to the inventory being taken at the warehouse. For the sake of the
record, I am anxious to make a definite protest against the plan, procedure, and
conditions of this inventory.
I am, of course, aware of the fact that you have a definite purpose in mind.
However, it is not my idea to have anything to do whatsoever nor let the records
show that 1 have been responsible for the present type of inventory.
So that you will know my feelings in the matter, the present plan is more or
less of tlie same nature of having a banker examine his own bank and report it
to his superior, State, or Federal authorities.
In the first place, an inventory cannot be accurately expected from employees
•wnthin the warehouse where we know that more than $100 a day is being misappro-
priated. It is natural that the warehouse management would like to have the
records developed to comply with numerous flagrant errors that were created
during the rush of the installation of the camp.
It is now being generally discussed among the Japanese warehouse people that
they will be able to cover up their records and in many instances they have already
discussed the manner of hiding out various types of supplies and equipment so
that they could not be compelled to show them on their inventory.
If you are not familiar with the past procedure of handling the requisitions in
many instances it has run as follows: The requisition appears to the warehouse
for proper initialing. Then it is taken to the warehouse where the supplies are
located and frequently, as has been shown to me, the re(}uest has been changed
from a few items to a number of items to cover up other shortages.
In many cases it has been proved that the requisition has been completely de-
stroyed and not returned to the warehouse at all.
This is not an unusual condition, due to the vast amount of business conducted
under no definite business plan, but it is an unusual business condition to expect
to get an accurate inventory from several hundred employees in charge of their
stocks of goods.
My recommendation, therefore, would be to have a business inventory taken
by disinterested parties so that when a final accounting is made or a corps of
Federal officers come into this camp to take an accurate inventory that this de-
partment would be cleared of any of the final actions that will be taken.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8965
t
And that memorandum is signed: "H. H. Townsend, Supply and
Transportation Officer."
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall this memorandum?
]\[r. Empie. Yes; I do, and I would like to say that I am in complete
agreement with !Mr. Townsend 's feelings about the matter, and that
at a'number of conferences held in Washington, D. C, in 1940 between
members of the General Accounting Office and various bureaus of the
Department of the Interior, T advocated that this type of inventor)'-
be provided for in the regulations under which we were operating
at Poston.
The resulting regulations, however, after the work of the committee
appointed by the Secretary, finished its work, was to provide a system
of taking inventories by the person who was responsible for the items.
I have never agreed with it. I don't think it is sound accounting
practices or principles, and if I were to prescribe a set of regulations
to follow I would provide an inventory to be taken by disinterested
officials. That is my firm conviction and the records of the Indian
Service, I believe, will bear that out.
Mr. Steedman. I w^ould like to ask you a question on that point.
Mr. Townsend states in this memorandum, and I quote:
In the first place an inventory cannot be accurately expected from employees
within the warehouses where we know that more than a $100 a day is being
misappropriated.
Is that statement correct?
Mr. Empie. I can's say that it is, no, sir. I don't believe that that
is right to say that, and to support my point there I would like to
say this, that I do know" in many instances where a head of a division
or somebody under his direction will appear at the warehouse to get
his requisition filled and get it approvecl by the chief warehouseman
or one of his assistants, and go down to one of the warehouses and see
things in stock. In the first place he has no business in the ware-
house. He should present his requisition at the door and they should
say:
You can drive around to the gate and pick up your stuff on the truck.
But the way we are set up there he goes into the warehouse with
the fellow^ in charge of the warehouse and he is very apt to see things
that he thinks he needs in addition to what has been approved, and
will add those and, copies, of course, of the requisitions finally go
back to the file and it is my firm conviction and it is my sincere belief
all of the items shown on the requisitions — I wouldn't say all of them,
but the greater percentage of the items shown on the requisitions, have
been used for the purposes stated on the requisitions.
Mr. Costello. But items have been taken out of the warehouses
and used in the camp, items that went beyond the requisitions?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. I am in thorough accord,, too, with you about what
would constitute wise warehousing and inventory procedure. You
are in charge of the accounting in the warehousing division, but you
have not set up the type of system in which you believe?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Wliy not? There must be some reason for that.
Mr. Empie. Because I do not have the facilities to do it with nor
the backing to do it. By "facilities" I mean personnel, adequate
8966 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
personnel to man these organizations and keep them running on a
business-hke basis.
Mr. MuNDT. If you had the backing would you get the personnel?
Mr. Empie. I don't know whether the Bureau of the Budget would
consent to that or not. They are pretty tight on money.
Mr. MuNDT. Is the lack of support emanating from the camp or
from Washington?
Mr. Empie. Both.
Mr. MuNDT. Insofar as it does not come from Washington, does the
failure lie with the W. R. A. or with the Indian Office to provide the
proper background and support? Who is in charge of that aspect of
it in Washington?
Mr. Empie. May I answer it in this way?
Mr. MuNDT. Any way you choose, just so I get the answer.
Mr. Empie. The administrative supervisors — I will say it this way
if you don't mind: The supervisors of the administrative services in
the Indian ^Service, and I understand in many other services, are
staffed with personnel who have grown up from an accountant's view-
point. They know what it means to try to keep track of equipment
and property; but when you go to the trouble to get all the detailed
records in the right form, tliat is the only solid foundation upon which
to build your final records, and I have always felt, as I do now, that
until we get the officials of the Government who are actually saying to
the supervisors of administrative services: "Do thus and so" and
"Let us get this job done," until we can convince them that they have
got to share some of the responsibility and give support to people
that are trying to get these regulations complied with, we are just not
getting anywhere.
Now, that is an auditor's viewpoint. I served as an auditor in the
Indian Service for many years.
Mr. MuNDT. That is one of the results which might develop from
this committee hearing. We might be in a position to help impress
that on the program in Washington.
Mr. Empie. I certainly would be glad if you would.
Mr. MuMDT. I want to know wdiether we should approach the
W. R. A. on that or the Indian Office?
Mr. Empie. It is my opinion that you would find a fertile field in
either place.
A'Tr. MuNDT. W^e might try both; but which do you think we should
concentrate on?
Mr. Empie. Inasmuch as we are operating directly under the Indian
Office, I will have to say the Indian Office.
Mr. Costello. Mr. Empie, you would not have authority to
change the procedure of inventory and so on at this camp?
Mr. Empie. I would not be complying with the regulations that I
have been told to comply with.
Mr. Costello. You have to follow the directions that emanate
from Washington?
Mr. Empie'^. Yes'.
Mr. Costello. Even though you know they are not adequate in
dealing with and keeping a check on the contents of the warehouses?
Mr. Empie. Well, there is nothing to prevent me from reporting
what I think about it, but they still will come back and say: "Do
this or that or the other thing."
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 8967
Mr. MuNDT. Is it your focliuo; jrrowino; out of the oxporience you
haw had now for a year or 18 months at the camp, that if the proper
reguhitions were issued from Washington that, as far as the personnel
is concerned, you coukl conduct an accurate inventory with the Jap-
anese personnel doing the work?
Mr. Empie. I beheve so, under the right supervision, yes, sir. We
have many evacuees who are good accountants and if you handled
them ])roperly they will do what 5^011 tell them.
Mr. MuNDT. That would pretty w^ell take care of one of the diffi-
culties which j^ou said was the difficulty with personnel?
Mr. Empie. Certainly would.
Mr. MuNDT. That is not an insurmountable obstacle.
Mr. Empie. That would relieve my load 100 percent if we could
get some action on that.
Mr. MuNDT. And if you could save $15,000 in the course of a year,
that would amply pay a man's salary to look after it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether similar conditions exist in
the other camps?
Mr. Empie. No, sir, I can't say, and it would be just a personal
opinion.
Mr. MuNDT. As an accountant with 18 years of credible service
behind you in the Federal Government, would it be your guess, as
long as they use the same accounting systems in other camps as they
use in yours, which of course is true, that similar discrepancies would
quite probably occur in the other camps.
Mr. Empie. It is quite possible, yes.
Mr. MuNDT. There is no reason to assume that the warcliouse
officials and personnel are any the less ethical or honest in your camp
than they would be some place else?
Mr. Empie. Well, I don't want to brag, but I believe that is true.
Mr. MuxDT. In other words, the difficulty is with the system?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. If the system doesn't work in Poston it isn't going
to work in Tule Lake or some of these other places?
Mr. Empie. I will put it this way: Unless W. R. A. has been
more successful than we have in getting people to carry out the
instructions, the same conditions exist there. Now, I don't know
what exists there.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to return to the reference made by
Mr. Townsend of the $100 a day in goods being misappropriated from
the warehouses.
He refers in his sentence:
We know that more than $100 a day is being misappropriated.
And the memorandum is addressed to you. Do vou agree with that?
Mr. Empie. I will answer it in this way: That so far to date I
have never had an accounting, an actual dollar value presented to me
to show what anybody estimated on it. I can't dispute it and still
I don't think it is right. I think it is exaggerated.
Air. Steedman. Well, he was in charge of the warehouses under
j'^ou at that time; was he not?
Mr. Empi^. General supervision; yes. You will have an oppor-
tunity to question Mr. Wickersham on that point. I believe he can
tell you more of the details about it and very sincerely too.
8968 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. You have a loss from the warehouses?
Mr. Empie. There is no question but what we have a reasonable
loss, a normal loss, I would say.
Mr. Steedman. But you don't know how much that loss is?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever endeavored to find out?
Mr. Empie. Except in Ihis way: That the chief warehouseman and
people operating under his direction know that they must report
any shortages. That is a part of our procedure and they are familiar .
with it.
Mr. Steedman. How is that handled in your accounting records?
Mr. Empie. That is acted upon by a board of survey, property board
of survey appomted by me as accountable officers, to act in review of
those cases — ^any cases of loss or damage or disposal of property.
Mr. CosTELLO. That loss then would actually be shown in the
records? There would be no covering up of them by juggling the
figm-es?
Mr. Empie. No, sir, it wouldn't— not if I had anything to do with
it and I would have something to do with it.
Mr. Steedman. You received this memorandum on December 16,
1942, with that statement:
We know that more than $100 a day is being misappropriated.
Did you reply to this memorandum?
Mr. Empie. I don't recall whether I did or not. My records would
show that.
Mr, Steedman. I would like to call your attention to this addi-
tional statement:
It is now being generally discussed among -the Japanese warehouse people
that they will be able to cover up their records and in many instances they have
already discussed the manner of hiding out various types of supplies and equip-
ment so that they could not be compelled to show them on their inventory.
Do you think that statement is correct?
Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know whether it is or not.
Mr. Steedman. Did you investigate that statement?
Mr. Empie. I may have by calling it to the attention of the chief
warehouseman.
Mr. Steedman. And that is Mr. Wickersham?
Mr. Empie. If I did he will remember it.
Mr. Steedman. He states further:
In many cases it has been proven that the requisitions have been completely
destroyed and not returned to the warehouse at all.
Did you make any investigation of that point in the memorandum?
Mr. Empie. Again if I did I referred .it to Mr. Wickersham. I
didn't personally that I recall.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had any labor difficulties in the ware-
houses?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; we have.
Mr. Steedman. Will you state what those difficulties were?
Mr. Empie. Well, in my opinion the most outstanding difficulty
was our inability to convince the evacuees that they should unload
and handle heavy construction materials that were being shipped
into the project, and arriving at the railhead at Parker.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITLEiS 8969
They had the impression, whether due to the project's inabihty to
properly exphiiii it to them, I don't know, that when they unloaded
construction material consisting of lumber, steel, cement, and so
forth, that they were doing that for the benefit of some contractor
whom they thought had charge of building the public works facili-
ties— u-rigation and roads and subjugation, and so forth, and they
refused to iniload or handle any heavy equipment.
I say "refused." They objected very strenuously and we were
always m a conference with them about it to try to convince them
that it was a part of the project — a part of the project work and
inasmuch as it was a part of the policy to employ the evacuees in all
jobs, that they must take their responsibility in that work as well
as any other.
However, I am inclined to believe from later discussions with various
evacuees that they considered the thing from the standpoint of an
actual subsistence basis. They were willing to participate in any
work that contributed directly to their immediate welfare on the
project, but when it came to taking on this over-all pictm-e that we
spoke of this morning, taking any active part in working hard for the
benefit of the Indians in the future, why, they couldn't see it, and on
that basis we later on eliminated all of the evacuees at the Parker
warehouses and have smce handled all of the incoming shipments
at the railhead with Indian employees — -with very few Indian employ-
ees who kept the tracks clear and the merchandise in transit.
Mr. AluxDT. Do the Japanese volunteer their labor around the
camp for which they are not paid?
Air. Empie. Yes; they do.
IMr. AluxDT. Would you elaborate on that a little?
Mr. Empie. Quite often they are called in to do things voluntarily
and they will get a crew from various blocks and do certain types of
work. It is my understanding that in those instances they are not
on the pay roll.
Mr. IxIuxDT. Those are just incidental jobs?
Mr. Empie. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. Steedmax. I hand 3^ou a letter on the letterhead of the United
States Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Field
Service, Colorado River war relocation project, Poston, Ai"iz., dated
May 28, 1942:
Memorandum to Mr. Roy Potter, acting supply and transportation officer.
and signed by you.
Do you recognize your signature?
"Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Steedmax. Did you write this letter?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Steedmax. Mr. Chairman, I would Hke to offer this in evidence
and read it into the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, it will be so ordered.
Mr. Steedmax [reading]:
We have been facing labor difficulties in connection with the employment of
Japanese in various capacities, but I think in particular in connection with the
operation of the warehouses.
In some instances, according to verbal reports which have been made, many
Japanese have failed to report for duty after having been assigned to specific jobs.
8970 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
In order that an intelligent report may be made to the project director with
respect to this matter, it is requested that a daily report be made citing each in-
stance involving the failure of Japanese to report for duty or to carry out assign-
ments given them.
Were the reports that you requested fui'nished you?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have copies of those reports at your
Poston office?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In your files there?
Mr. Empie. I beheve so, but if not in my immediate file in the file
of the chief warehouseman.
Mr. Steedman. I have a memorandum dated July 11, 1942, which
is addressed to Mr. A. W. Empie, submitted by Mr. Roy Potter, the
transportation and supply officer, with reference to labor difficulties,
which was furnished me by Mr. Townsend and I would like to read
this memorandinn into the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Air. Steedman [reading]:
We continue to experience considerable difficulty in obtaining sufficient labor
to operate properly the warehouse and handle the equipment and materials as it
arrives.
It appears to me that around 100 willing workers are doing all the work for the
entire camp. The large percentage of the men whom we have employed at the
shop and warehouse are competent and willing to go to extremes in their effort
to get the job done. We have assigned one of our assistant warehousemen to
supervise an extra crew which goes on duty at 1 p. m., working through until
9 p. m., but this crew has dwindled down until yesterday only two appeared for
duty, and although we have a request with the employment office for from 15
to 25 men for the past 10 days, none have reported for work, and they inform us
that they are unable to obtain the, necessary labor. The consequence of this,
freight which arrives in the evening is unloaded by volunteers from the group who
have been on duty the entire day; when a truck arrives after 6 o'clock, Mr. Camp-
bell, who is held in high regard by his employees, contacts some of these day crews
and they report to help him out in the emergency. It is reported to me that
numerous Japanese who are idle, harass these willing workers reminding them
that they could get by without working the same as they, the idlers, have been
doing.
Another concrete evidence of the labor difficulties is with the roads division.
On the 9th it was necessary that a bridge which would carry a semitrailer truck
loaded with stove oil be constructed across the ditch running through the north
end of camp. They notified the employment office that a certain amount of
labor would be needed and brought their equipment and men the morning of the
10th to do the job, but they were unable to obtain anyone to help get the bridge
in. At noon I learned of this condition and knowing that it was necessary to
get the stove oil to the north end of the camp, I went to a crew which was working
for the irrigation and got them to loan their men to the road division for completion
of the bridge.
Another incident which occurred at the warehouse last week was when an
entire group sent out on a job demanded that they be assigned easier tasks.
When this became known to Mr. Campbell, he remarked to them that the usual
procedure for anyone who was<i't satisfied with the job on which he was working
W'as to quit, and that the.t was their privilege. They immediately availed them-
selves of this privilege. The majority of this group, I believe, were from Salinas.
Continually during the operations at the warehouse, men have quit the job because
the task was too difficult and Mr. Campbell has kept the list of all these men
and we have decided that they will not be given another opportunity to work in
any of the warehouse activities.
Numerous other instances could be related as evidence of this labor situation.
I am of the opinion that projects should be originated which would put every
man to work. There is now an abundance of hand tools such as shovels, picks,
et cetera, in the warehouse which would be available for constructing by hand the
I
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8971
numerous ditches which would be needed within the area and also streets and roads
could be improved and graded with hand tools.
If the time should arrive when this sort of work could be started, then I am
certain they would have no difficulty in obtaining the labor needed to do the
necessary work and building within the project area.
And that is signed — •
Roy Potter,
Transportation and Supply Officer.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall that memorandum?
Mr. Empie. Yes, very well. Do you want me to make a statement
in reijard to it?
Mr. Steedman. Go right ahead.
Mr. Empie. That, I might say, is the kind of evidence which has
been placed from time to time on file in my office to show the difficulty
that members of our organization were having in accomplishing the
work assigned to them.
It has been a fight from the beginning — evacuees you: could depend
on who would stay on the job and do the work assigned to them. A
great mam^ of them are deserving of recognition. They have stayed
b}' their posts in spite of the hai-assing from others. Nevertheless,
from the over-all picture there has developed, in my opinion, a laxity
in work habits among the evacuees that is going to be hard for them
to correct in later years when they go outside the project and go back
to normal life and this experience is over.
And agam in my opinion I believe that the right kind of action
could be taken to correct it. I believe that the right kind of instruc-
tions from the W. R. A. central office, strictly enforced all down the
line, would correct all that monkey business.
Mr. MuNDT. At that point, would you be willing to state some of the
constructive ideas which you have, for the enlightmeht of the com-
mittee?
Mr. Empie. I will do my best.
Mr. MuNDT. We would appreciate it.
^fr. Empie. It has been our experience and the experience of those
people I am speaking of, the ones in my immediate organization, that
when you outline an assignment to an evacuee he understands what
you mean but he is watching you to see if you are going to make him
do it. If he thinks he can get away with it, he is not going to do it
unless he has some inherent incentive and will to do it for the good of
himself and of the community; the welfare of his fellow n?en.
On the other hand, as I say, if you set up a policy and you make
them see that you mean business, that you are not going to tolerate
any monkey business at all, it is my firm conviction that they will
do the job, and as disciplinary action in case they don't, I believe that
measures could be instituted that would be effective and I believe some
of the measures would be to simply say, for instance, "If you don't
put out the work here on this job, you are going to be laid off — there
is going to be no opportunity given you to work any place else on the
project until you prove to us that yf^^i ai-e going to mend your ways."
As it has been now on our particular project where we are supposed
to have an employment division, and a director of employment in
charge of all that, there should be a following up under the project
director's direction and see that there is no interbidding for jobs — no
transfer from one job to another just on a fellow's personal ideas, and a
strict system established for controlling it.
8972 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
In other words, if I lay a man off and tell him he is through, it
should be fixed so he can't go over to somebody else and get on and
pull the same thing over there. I believe it can be done.
I have always felt it could be done and I think if the project had
been set up on that basis to start with and that firm control was
exercised, there wouldn't have been any trouble.
I would like to bring in here, however, that the whole crux of this
situation, in my opinion, is the question of segregation.
Air. MuNDT. That was the next thing I was going to ask you about.
I was going to ask you if you didn't feel that the fact you haven't
segregated the bad fellows from the goods one has had a bad effect
on the Japanese who might be inclined to work?
Mr. Empie. Absolutely. I think that is the first and foremost
problem the W. R. A. should have attacked and solved imme-
diately ^they should have arranged innnediately to get these people
out.
Mr. MuNDT. But you don't feel that that can be solved? You feel
that that would be very difficult. Do you feel there is a way you can
distinguish between the loyal and disloyal Japanese or the ambitious
and indolent Japanese?
Mr. Empie. I don't know whether there is any way you can read a
man's mind to determine whether deep down in his heart he is loyal
to the United States. All you can judge him by is his actions. If he
gives you any indication whatsoever that he is not, he should be
disposed of in the described manner. Somebody has to figure that
out. We have internment camps and the W. R. A. is trying to set up
an isolation camp for certain classes and I have asked jVIr. Head many
times what was being done to segregate people that were considered
out of line wiUi the project requirements, and out of line with the
welfare of the community. His answer, in general, without going
into the details which I might have forgotten, was that in cooperation
with G-2, Military Intelligence, O. N. I., the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation, that those, matters are being taken care of and not being
in contact with it myself, I assume that is correct.
Mr. Eberharter. That is the kind of an answer we got yesterday
from Mr. Gelvin. He understood when the camp was being estab-
lished and nearly ready for use, that they had been working on that
for a long time and would soon be ready to open the camp. Isn't
that what he said yesterday?
Mr. MuNDT. At Luppe, Ariz.
Mr. Empie. At Luppe, Ariz., I understand; yes. I understand
there are several families there now, several inmates.
Mr. Eberharter. Have any gone to that camp from Boston?
Air. Empie. I couldn't say that. That would not come to my
attention.
Mr. Costello. The only ones taken from Boston were the ones
definitely subversive whom the F. B. I. removed?
Mr. Empie. So far as I know; yes, sir.
Air. Costello. And there is no doubt that agitators have been left
in the camp. Has any penalty been meted out for those agitators,
or some sort of punishment?
Air. Empie. I don't know in what way.
Mr. Costello. Hasn't anybody even attempted to punish those
who are causing trouble or agitation in the camp?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8973
Air. Empie. I will say in this way — through the efforts of the in-
ternal-security division and the police and legal procedure that has
been established on the part of the camp organization, manned prin-
cipally by evacuees under the supervision of a Caucasian project
attorney and Caucasian police officer.
Mr. CosTELLO. The internal-security division is made up, how-
ever, largely of evacuees?
Mr. P^MPiE. Yes, sir; it is only supervised by the appointed
personnel.
Mr. Eberharter. Do we have a record or anything that shows
how the internal-security division operates — its procedure and how it
is manned and what results it has been getting?
Mr. Steedman. I feel we had better develop that at this point.
Who is in charge of the internal-security division at the present
time at Poston?
Mr. Empie. It is in the immediate charge of Mr. Ernest L. Miller,
who operates under the direction of the project director.
Mr. Steedman. "VA hat is his title?
Mr. Empie. This will be misleading because it is a pay-roll title.
It was assigned by our classification division in the secretary's office
in order to, in their opinion, give it the grade which the W. R. A. paid
on other projects of $3,800. It is chief welfare officer, I believe. I
will check that on the pay roll if you want ine to, but the title we use
in the other W. R. A. projects is "chief of internal security."
We refer to it that way on our project except for pay-roll purposes.
Mr. Steedman. Has l\'Ir. Miller had any police experience?
Mr. Empie. Yes; he had.
Mr. Steedman. Prior to going to Poston?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. ^Miere?
Mr. Empie. On the San Francisco police force.
Mr. Steedman. How is your internal-security division 'set up?
Mr. Empie. Under the, as I said, under the supervision of police
squads or police organizations for each unit, composed of evacuee
members. Police officers and sul)ordinates on down the line, with
which I am not familiar, are established and operated the same as any
other city police operate.
Mr. Steedman. Are there any Caucasians working with Mr. Miller?
Mr. Empie. Until recently one assistant, Mr. Robert Scott.
Mr. Steedman. AMiere is Mr. Scott now?
Mr. Empie. I don't know. He left the project a short time ago.
I don't know wdiere he went.
Mr. Steedman. Did he resign?
Mr. Empie. I don't know that. In fact it just came to my atten-
tion a few days ago that he had left the project and I haven't in-
quired about the reason.
Mr. Steedman. And under Mr. Miller, you have a Japanese chief
of police; is that correct?
Mr. Empie. For each miit: yes.
Mr. Steedman. So the intei-nal-security division is dependent upon
the Japanese policemen to keep law and order inside of the cam^p; is
that correct?
Mr. Empie. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. We might take a brief recess for a few minutes.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
62626 — i3— vol. 15 ^10
8974 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will please come to order. You
may proceed, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any wealthy Japanese at the Poston
center?
Mr. Empie. It is my understanding we do. I don't know them.
Mr. Steedman. Have you made any check upon the amount of
wealth they might have?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about the amount of
property that each evacuee owns?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You have kept no statistics on that at all?
Mr. Empie. Not in my part of the organization. We have recently
established what is known as the evacuee property office. They
may have that information.
Mr. Steedman. Wlio is in charge of that office?
Mr. Empie. A man that the W. R. A. sent into the project by the
name of Schmitt.
Mr. Steedman. And who is the project attorney whom you men-
tioned?
Air. Empie. Mr. Theodore Haas.
Mr. Steedman. Did you see Mr. Haas' personnel papers when he
came to work at Poston?
Mr. Empie. No; I didn't. He was formerly an employee of the
Solicitor's office in the Department of the Interior. He was assigned
to the project through the efforts of the Indian Office and as I remem-
ber later on went over to the W. R. A.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much money each evacuee
has on deposit in the various banks in southern California or through-
out the United States?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Do you exercise any control over the evacuees'
personal funds?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Steedman. Do they handle their financial affairs through the
project attorney?
Mr. Empie. I am not familiar with that; I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not any of the evacuees
are drawing $500 a month from the Federal Reserve bank and at
the same time living on the Govei^nment at Government ex'pense?
Mr. Empie. I don't know that; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. That is possible, is it not?
Mr. Empie. (No answer.)
Mr. Steedman. It is possible, is it not, for an alien to have his
funds impounded and permitted to draw a maximum of $500 a
month and still live at the expense of the Government at the project?
Mr. Empie. I am not familiar with those regulations, Mr. Steedman.
I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think if the project had control over the
funds of the evacuees that the project would be in a better position
to get the evacuees to work?
Mr. Empie. It might be a contributing factor. I don't know.
I never thought of it.
• UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITrES 8975
Mr. Steedman. I would like to ^o back again to Mr. Potter. Do
you think the fact that Mr. Potter suggested that they should organize
a pick and shovel gang at Poston, contributed to his transfer away
from the center?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You think that had nothing to do with it?
Mr. Empie. No. sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. To what extent do you think the wage scale at
Poston prevents getting satisfactory work out of tlie Japanese?
Mr. Empie. I think it has all to do with it.
Mr. Costello. You think the wage scale should be increased in
order to ofl'ectively get the Japanese work?
Mr. Empie. I couldn't say that. It just occurs to me it wouldn't
be in keeping with good business to do that. I feel this way about it,
that after working various evacuees at various types of positions in
my organization, that some of them, even at $19 a month, do more
work than you could get for $200 a month on the outside b}' some other
person. They are just good workers when they want to work. "Wlien
they do want to work they really shell it out.
Mr. Costello. Those Japs who are industrious are willing to work,
at that low figure?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. I think it would be an additional incentive
and it .has often been expressed by them, if they could be paid at the
going wages, instead of having tlieLr efforts exploited at $19 a month,
that they would work.
Mr. Costello. If they do work they only get $19 a month and if
they don't work they still get food and clothing, and naturally they
don't consider their housing and food as a part payment for the work
being done?
Mr. Empie. The way they express it is that the Government took
them from their former abodes and transplanted them and that it is
the obligation, of the Government to furnish them with food and
clothing and shelter and other facilities. When we begin to nego-
tiate with them about working harder or more efficiently, they say:
"Well, where is the incentive?"
I have tried to point out in dealing with the people in my organi-
zation that they have got to look beyond this $19 a month, not only
for the purpose of their own good inwardly but by reason of the fact
that in actually doing the work they are Iniilding up an experience
record that will be recognized in the future when they apply for jobs
some place else.
If they have that experience, I explain to them, they can say: "Yes,
I worked as an accountant at Poston."
And that I did thus and so, and if somebody will swear to that and
it is recognized by the Civil Service Commission in later years — I
believe it should be taken into consideration by them, and I have tried
to point that out to them. A good many of them are working on
that basis.
We have one person in particular who just came to my attention a
short time ago. I asked why he was moving from one section of my
office to another section and hife reply was that he had gotten all
the experience that he thought he needed in that line of work and
wanted to move to something else so as to round out his experience at
Poston.
8976 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Are those exceptional cases?
Mr. Empie. I would say that those are in the minority, yes, but it
is the class of work — ^I believe those in the accounting field and
clerical field are more inclined to do that.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have a camouflage net factory operating
in the center at Poston?
Mr. Empie. We did have; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Who built that net factory?
Mr. Empie. It was built by the Army engineers.
Mr. Steedman. Under contract?
Mr. Empie. I believe so.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what it cost?
Mr. Empie. I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese at first refuse to work in the
net factory?
Mr. Empie. There was a great deal of discussion about whether'
they would work or not and, as I viewed it, it was a matter of labor
relations. In other words, "What was the percentage." After they
found out that they could go in there and work on a piece basis and
^be paid on the work that they turned out, they put out more work
'than they put out anywhere else on the job. They exceeded all the
estimates that had been submitted for accomplishing the manufacture
of nets. «
Mr. Steedman. They were paid on a piece work basis in the net
factory?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. But at first they voted on whether or not they
would work in the net factory?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And on the first vote they voted against working
in the net factory; is that correct?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Is that correct?
Mr. Empie. I believe that is right.
Mr. Steedman. Was that vote on the basis that they did not wish
to do anything that would contribute to our war effort?
Mr. Empie. I don't believe it was. I am not in position to say
because I don't know all the ramifications of that thing, but I have a
feeling, as I said before, that it was a labor relations point. They
were looking to the Director of Employment to negotiate with the
contractor for a little better pay. That is my inclination.
Mr. Sieedman. Who was in direct charge of the net factory?
Mr. Empie. The contractor oj^erating imder the supervision of the
United States Engineers who furnished inspectors for it.
Mr. Steedman. And who was the contractor?
Mr. Empie. A man by the name of John Stahl.
Mr. Steedman. Is he paid by the project?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; paid by the engineers under an agreement
between himself and his organization and the United States Engineers.
Mr. Steedman. Does he receive a percentage on the nets produced
in the factory?
Mr. Empie. I am not familiar at all with the provisions of the
contract. A copy of the contract has never been furnished our office,
to my knowledge.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS 8977
Mr. Steedman. Does he have an office in the net factory?
Mr. Empie. He did have; yes. •
Mr. Steedman. Did he stay, at the net factory most of the time?
Mr. Empie. He had representatives there.
Mr. Steedman. How many?
Mr. Empie. Two that I know of; a man by the name of Rosen-
bloom, his auditor, and a man by the name of Bilhcke.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know their first names?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I do not.
]\Ir. Steedman. You don't know the percentage that Mr. Stahl
received for supervising the work at the net factory, do you?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how many nets the factory turned
out?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Who would have information regarding the net
factory?
Mr. Empie. The United States Engineers' office.
Air. Steedman. Where?
Mr. Empie. 751 South Figueroa Street.
Mr. Steedman. Los Angeles?
Mr. Empie. Yes. If they don't have the information, they can
get it.
Mr. Steedman. Have you purchased any materials from salvage
firms in Los Angeles?
Mr. ]MuNDT. Pardon me. Before you leave the net factory, w^hat
was the average monthlj^ income of the Japanese working on piece
work ir that factory?
Mr. Empie. I don't have any information on that except a verbal
report that I heard one time, that they were making about $15 a day —
as much as $15 a day on a piece-work basis. They were all busy.
You ought to visit one of those places and watch them make nets.
Mr. MuNDT. What was the basis on which they were assigned to
the net factory? It would seem there would be a big scramble for
those jobs.
Mr. Empie. Evei^ybody who wanted to could apply for a job.
!Many of them moved out of our offices to take jobs there on the basis
that the W. R. A. originally planned to provide private employment
in places adjacent to the project or could contribute to the war effort
in that manner.
Mr. Steedman. Has the project at Poston, through your office,
purchased any materials from salvage companies in Los Angeles?
Air. Empie. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. \Miat materials have been purchased from such
companies?
Air. Empie. You say "salvage companies." I am not famDiar
with whether they are considered salvage companies or not, but we
have bought a lot of material here in Los Angeles. It is one of our
chief sources of supply.
Air. Steedman. Did the project buy some trucks?
Air. Empie. Yes, sir; we bought some trucks here from the Indus-
trial Equipment Co.
Air. Steedman. How many trucks were purchased?
Air. Empie. As I recall, 12.
8978 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Who are the owners of the Industrial Equipment
Co?
Mr. Empie. I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know a man by the name of Mr. Finkel-
stein?
Mr. Empie. He is not with the Industrial Equipment Co. — Finkel-
stein? We bought a lot of stuff from Finkelstein who was con-
tacted by a representative of the Indian Irrigation Service at 751
South Figueroa Street, who acted for the project in assisting us to
secure construction materials, orders for which were placed by the
chief engineer of our project.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Rupkey?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Who is the officer of the Indian Service that put
you in touch with Mr. Finkelstein?
Mr. Empie. I believe, as I recall, that stuff was bought by Mr.
Henderson — Paul Henderson.
Mr. Steedman. Were some trucks purchased from Mr. Finkelstein?
Mr. Empie. Not that I remember of; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What was purchased from him?
Mr. Empie. Well, we bought a lot of scrap material such as old
iron and pipe and plmnbing fittings and things of that kind.
This material was ordered by Mr. Rupkey on the basis that it
would have to be susbtituted in lieu of steel, which could not be
procured except on high priority. It was needed, he thought, and we
all thoup;ht, somewhere else worse than we needed it.
Mr. Steedman. Did you ever prorest against any of these pur-
chases from Mr. Finkelstein?
Mr. Empie. Yes, I did. I didn't think that we had any use for it.
I spoke to Mr. Rupkey about it several times and asked him what
he intended to do with it, and he said he was going to use it in the
construction of irrigation features, and I left it to his judgment.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much material was purchased
from Mr. Finkelstein in terms of dollars?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; but I can report it to you.
Mr. Steedman. I wish you would give the committee that informa-
tion.
Mr. Mundt. Who proved to be right? You or Mr. Rupkey?
Was the material used that he purchased?
Mr. Empie. I think some of it has been used, and I think some of
it is still in stock. I can give you a report on that, too.
Mr. Mundt. Will you do that, please.
Mr. Steedman. Who were the 12 trucks purchased from?
Mr. Empie. Bought those from the Industrial Equipment Co.
Mr. Steedman. And who owns that company?
Mr. Empie. I don't know who owns it.
Mr. Steedman. Did you inspect the trucks before they were pur-
chased?
Mr. Empie. Yes; I did.
Mr. Steedman. And did you agree to the purchase of those trucks?
Mr. Empie. Yes; I did.
Mr. Steedman. Were the trucks m good order when they were
purchased?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8979
Mr. Empie. Yes; I think it can be said that they were in good order.
They needed working on from that'standpointf They didn't have
tail hghts; the batteries were run down; and there had to be some
work done on them to put them in road condition.
I came over here and looked the trucks over and told the officials
of the company that we would accept delivery at the time they notified,
me that they had been placed in road condition.
By that I mean that these trucks had been operated as dump
trucks under a power shovel and they, like any other trucks utilized
in that manner, had gotten some knocks.
Some of the radiator grills had beiMi broken and some of the lights
were gone and some of the glass out of the windows, but those trucks
were bought at a time when we w^ere making every attempt to get the
largest amount of work done over there in the shortest period of time.
\Ve advertised for bids and I don't recall how many bids we received,
but these bids were the low bids and after discussing it with various
members of the organization, including Mr. Rupkey, we decided to
go ahead and make the purchase.
Mr. Steedman. Have any trucks been purchased that had to be
towed into Poston from Los Angeles?
Mr. Empie. Not to my knowledge. These particular trucks — I
have a recent report from the supply and transportation officer on
them, because I was interested myself in how they worked out, be-
cause, not being mechanically minded myself, I wouldn't know whether
a motor was bad or a transmission had gone out or a differential needed
adjustment or something, and I asked them to give me a report on
them and he assured me that they have given very satisfactory service.
They have been put in service there on the road work and other
parts of the project.
Mr. Steedman.- Can you cite any other instances wdiere you pro-
tested against buying certain materials for the project?
Mr. Empie. Well, that would be pretty hard to enumerate because
of this fact: I have always taken the attitude in reviewing purchase
requests that the best policy is to say "No" right off the bat. You
might be able to talk them out of it. And working on that basis you
finally jew them down, and if they can convince you and put something
in the record that will show that they are willing to take the responsi-
bility, we go ahead and make the purchase. Otherwise, we don't.
Mr. Costello. Were those the only trucks that were purchased
for the camp?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Costello. I mean those 12 trucks?
Mr. Empie. No, sir. I think we purchased some others. I could
give you a complete record of all the purchases of trucks if you would
like to have it.
Mr. Costello. It would be interesting because we did have a report
to the effect that some of the trucks were not in good condition and
were not used at the camp.
Do you know of any trucks that were purchased for Poston that
were actually not put into service after they were purchased?
Mr. Empie. I don't know but I wdl get a report for you and make
it complete, of all the trucks we have purchased.
Mr. Costello. We will appreciate it if you will.
8980 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Gelvin said that you could give the committee
the estimated cost of the schools that are being build at Poston. Do
you have those figures with you?
Mr. Empie. In round figures only. They would be from my
memory.
Mr. Steedman. That will be satisfactory.
Mr. Empie. About $470,000.
Mr. Steedman. That is a considerable expenditure for a temporary
project such as this relocation center, is it not?
Mr. Empie. On the basis that the relocation program is going
forward and they are going to move away from the camp, and on the
basis that it is a temporary establishment; yes.
On another basis, that is that they are apt to be there for some time,
and that the Indians will benefit from them in the future, that is the
justification.
Mr, Steedman. But there was no plan to build such a school
system prior to the establishment of the center at Poston, was there?
Mr. Empie. No, sir; that is my understanding, there wasn't.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of keeping the vital statistics at
Poston?
Mr. Empie. The director of health and sanitation.
Mr. Steedman. Is that under your department?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Who is the mortician in charge of the crematory
at Poston?
Mr. Empie. Mr. Ray E. Bower.
Mr. Steedman. Where does Mr. Bower reside?
Mr. Empie. He lives on the project but his regular establishment
is at Yuma.
Mr. Steedman. Is he at the center at Poston most of his time?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir. Would you like to know something about
the cost of burials?
Mr. Steedman. Yes; if you have that information the committee
would like to have it.
Mr. Empie. When we first went there we solicited bids from
various undertaking establishments. That was one of the first things
we had to face — the disposition of the bodies.
After soliciting bids Mr. Bower of the Yuma mortuary at Yuma,
put in the low bid and a contract was entered into for those services.
For a few burials we had to do it on the open-market basis. He was
the first or the nearest source that we could look to. He came up and
we transacted several — ^completed several transactions on the basis of
the open market without a contract. After we got the contract
prepared it was on this basis.
This, as you may know already, is on the basis of cremating the
bodies. This crematory service includes embalming, all undertaking
services, casket, cremation and an urn for the ashes, and all incidental
funeral services?
Infants up to 1 year, $75.
Children from I'to 12 year.?, $100.
Adults of 13 and up, $125, or an average, on the theory that an equal number of
each class of people will pass on, of $100 per burial
We did have, before we got the crematory established, two or three
deaths that involved the use of the cemetery. A cemetery site was
selected for that but those bodies were exhumed later and cremated.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8981
Mr. Sti>:edm AN. Does this mortician maintain records of all crema-
tions at Poston?
Mr. Empie. 1 believe he does.
!Mr. Steedman. Those records are in his custody?
Mr. Empie. I believe so, but I believe Dr. Pressman would have
that too.
Air. Steedman. Dr. Pressman is in charge of the hospital, is that
correct?
^Iv. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. AIuNDT. \^ hat, if any, a,rrangements are made at the project
for the religious inclinations of the evacuees?
Mr. Empie. That would be out of my line but I understand they
are allowed to conduct services in their own churches the same as they
would anywhere else.
!Mr. MuNDT. Thev have their own preachers or whatever they call
them? ^ . '
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. "\\ ho are interned there as well as the others?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Are there any other outside religious influences brought
into them?
•Mr. Empie. Well, I believe to some extent. There are visits made
to the project by various religious organizations who are interested
in a number of people there. To what extent they operate within the
area I haven't any knowledge.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Dr. Frank H. Smith who is con-
nected with the Protestant Ministers' Association of San Francisco?
Mr. Empie. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know^ Dr. Chapman of the same organiza-
tion?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you laiow Mr. Norris James?
Mr. Empie. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did he have a position at Poston?
Mr. Empie. He occupied what is know-n as the position of reports
officer. However, he was carried on the W. R. A. pay roll
Mr. Steedman. \^Tiat was his entrance salary?
Mr. Empie. I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. What was his salary when he resigned?
Mr. Empie. This would be a guess on my part because I don't know
what it was, but I believe it was $3,800.
Mr. Steedman. Wlien did he resign?
Mr. Empie. I believe around the 1st of May. I am not sure about
that.
Mr. Steedman. Was he under your supervision?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the term "Kibei'.'?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have the Kibei at Poston caused you any trouble?
Air. Empie. I don't know a Kibei from an Issei.
Mr. Steedman. Are most of the trouble makers at Poston Issei?
Mr. Empie. I am not prepared to say. I don't know. In other
words I don't have any way of knowing w^hether they are Issei or Kibei
or Nisei. I have never checked it through myself and I don't loiow.
8982 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Have you made a study or investigation of sub-
versive practices inside the project?
Mr. Empie. No, sir. I think the project director does in company
with the chief of internal security and I understand that they have
records of clearances and the reasons so far as they are able to
determine.
Mr. Steedman. But the project director would have a report on
that?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have at Poston a man employed in the com-
missary department by the name of Best?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir; we did have.
Mr. MuNDT. What was his position?
Mr. Empie. He was chief steward at the time the project first
started.
I was in San Francisco, as I explained, on the 31st of March and met
Air. Fyrer there and he was helping trying to get lined up to go to
Poston and Mr. Fyrer hired Mr. Best to go to Poston and set up the
kitchens and begin operating the mess halls.
In order to accomplish that in the most efficient manner, he dis-
patched iVIr. Best to Los Angeles for the purpose of interviewing Japa-
nese who were expected to be the fu'st ones at the camp area, on the
basis if we could go to the Army officials and say: "We have inter-
viewed these people, experienced in this type of work and we would
like to have them evacuated first so we can set up our organization and
begin operations in a normal manner."
Mr. Best proceeded to Los iingeles and interviewed many evacuees
looking toward taking positions such as stewards, cooks, headwaiters
and waitresses; kitchen help, storeroom keepers and that kind of
people which are required to run a mess establishment.
He then proceeded to Poston and I don't know of an evacuee that
he interviewed that came there first. He had a raw recruiting job
to do as they came in and he selected them to the best of his ability
off the busses as they arrived, and as they finished their induction
process they were told: "Now, here is the mess hall; if you people
can cook you had better get busy; we have got food in here."
And it was about 130° F. at the time and those evacuees who had
been experienced cooks forgot a lot about cooking very quickly.
Mr. MuNDT. Were the services of Mr. Best satisfactory?
Mr. Empie. I didn't consider them so; no, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you think that might have been due to the
difficulties under which he was laboring or was he unfit for the job?
Mr. Empie. Well, we have tried to view the services of many of
our employees in this light: That they have been working under
extreme difficulties in that situation and where they might be very
efficient some other place some of them didn't work out so good there.
That is one of the reasons we have tried to be just as lenient as
possible in dismissing them from the project. Otherwise they would
have a good record and that is a point that I believe should be kept
in mind.
Mr. MuNDT. No question about the honesty or veracity of Mr,
Best?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8983
Mr. Empie. I (lon't believe so. I had several difficulties with Mr.
Best. I was assigned the responsibility of looking after the steward
department, but I couldn't keep him from going directly to the project
director or somebody else with his troubles. He would do things that
I didn't know anytliing about until sometime later. I never could
get him rounded up and get him in line; and on top of that, I don't
believe that he was equipped, by lack of experience we will say or
some other reason, to manage a thing of that magnitude. He never
convinced me that he was.
Mr. Steedman. Didn't Mr. Best leave the project at Poston and
take a position at Heart Mountain Relocation Center in Wyoming?
Mr. Empie. I understand that he did; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In other words he left Poston and went directly to
the Heart Mountain Relocation Center and took a position over
there?
. Mr. Empie. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. A similar position, didn't he?
Mr. Empie. Not on om* recommendation.
Mr. Steedman. Did you advise the W. R. A. at Heart Mountain
that Mr. Best was inefficient and incapable of doing the work assigned
to him at Poston?
Mr. Empie. I believe we did. I can check on that point if you
would like to have it.
Mr. Steedman. I wish you would. How long did Mr. Best work
at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Empie. I don't know.
Mr. CosTELLO. How long was he at Poston?
Mr. Empie. He arrived there about, oh, I would say the 10th of
April 1942 and he left — I will have to check that record, but it seems
to me it was along in the latter part of September.
l\Ir. CosTELLO. Is he still employed at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Empie. No, sir. In fact, I saw him in the hallway here today.
That is my understanding. He may be on leave; I can't say.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, isn't it just routine Govern-
ment practice to ask another project if a former employee is satis-
factory?
Mr. Empie. Yes; it is, and they asked us.
Mr. Steedman. And you advised them that he wasn't satisfactory?
Mr. Empie. I am sure we did. I will check it though and give
you copies of the correspondence if you would like to have it.
Mr. Steedman. Is it unusual for another organization to employ
someone whom you have recommended to them as being unsatisfac-
tory and inefficient?
Mr. Empie. It is.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, that is all the questions I have.
Mr. Empie has a statement he would like to .make to the committee.
Mr. Eberharter. I would like to ask him one or two questions
before he makes his statement.
How many Caucasian employees do you have in the camp al-
together?
Mr. Empie. Well, we have approximately, including the irrigation
laborers out on the irrigation construction work, approximately 600.
Two hundred and twenty-four of those are what might be considered
as regularly established positions.
8984 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Eberharter. Two hundred and twenty-four?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. And of those 224 how many are males?
Mr. Empie. Males?
Air. Eberharter. Yes; men.
Mr. Empie. Well, the greater percentage. I don't have the statis-
tics on that. Would you like to have it?
Mr. Eberharter. And of those males I woidd like to have you
advise the committee those between the ages of 18 and 38 and those
over the age of 38.
Mr. Empie. All right, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. And would your records show whether or not
deferment has been requested for any of the male employees who are
of draftable age?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Would you supply the committee with that
information?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. How many of the 224 can speak Japanese?
Mr. Empie. One to my knowledge. There may be others.
Mr. MuNDT. And that one is a woman?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you tried to get white employees who can
speak the Japanese language?
Mr. Empie. I don't know that we have.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you found it difficult to find them?
Mr. Empie. I don't know that we have tried to do that.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLo. You have a statement, I understand, Mr. Empie^
that you want to make at this time.
Mr. Empie. I would like to if it is agreeable with the committee.
Mr. CosTELLo. We are very happy to hear you on that.
Mr. Eberharter. Your statement may cause us to ask you more
questions.
Mr. Empie. That is all right, if it does.
If you will bear with me on this I will attempt to read from short-
hand notes that I have prepared, because I did not want to attempt
to express myself extemporaneously, which might be misleading.
I would like to also say that in making this statement I want to be
as sincere as possible and express myself in the way in which will best
interpret to you my sincere beliefs about this situation.
I have reason to believe that in carrying out the hearing this morn-
ing, in answer to certain questions which have been asked me, that
my replies might have proved, from a standpoint of the record, to be
misleading. I may be wrong about that but I would like to correct
those impressions if I made them, and I would like to attempt to do
that in the following manner:
First, as chief administrative officer in charge of administrative
services at Poston, I established my part of the organization from the
standpoint of economical operation, including full protection to all
Government property.
I have personally appeared many times before the project director
in company with members of my organization, to report conditions
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8985
existing in the operation of the project which I did not beUcve in and
which I thought shoukl be stopped.
These persons have inckuk^d the following employees by title: The
property custodian, the supply and transportation ofTicer
jNlr. ^luNDT. May I interrupt 3'ou there? Could you give us the
names as well as the title?
Mr. Empie. All right, sir. Property custodian, J. F. Reinliardt;
supply and transportation officer, Mr. Roy Potter and Mr. Harold H.
Townsend and Mr. F. M. Haverland; the fiscal ofiicer ]\lr. H. W.
Smith, the chief warehouseman, E. S. Wickersham. Those I know
for sure, and there may have been others.
I would like to say also tkat at numerous staff meetings held on the
project I consistently brought out the fact that my organization
needed greater support in the control of the equipment and the preser-
vation and conservation of Government property, and that the evacuees
as well as others should be dealt witli in a manner designed to bring
about tlie desired results tkat myself and members of my organization
have advocated from tke beginning — tkat no evacuees skould be
allowed in tke nearby town of Parker, and tkat I kave personally
reported to tke project director tke fact tkat evacuees were seen in
Parker on other tkan official business, tkat after many montks of
suck reports tke project director asked me to report to kim in writing
a list of any evacuees found in Parker witkout a proper pass or permit.
Tins was done for a period of one week. Reports were transmitted
to tke director. Insofar as I was able to observe tkere was no net
result or desirable result.
Tkat in demonstration of tke fact tkat good control could kave been
exercised very few evacuees kave left tke camp area during tke past
few weeks — not kaving been seen at Parker.
I was also of tke opinion tkat a muck better relationskip between
tke people of Parker and tke farmers of tke Parker Valley could be
built up by seeing to it tkat tke evacuees stayed witkin tke immediate
project vicinity,, in transacting our business between eack otker on
tkat basis.
It is my opinion tkat tke fact tkat tkey kave visited Parker from
time to time lias served to cause antagonism to be expressed by tke
townspeople wkick could kave otkerwise been avoided.
Tke project director, since ke did not carry out tke recommendations
along tkese lines made by myself and members of my organization, no
doubt kas some very good reasons wkick I am in kopes will satisfy
tke requirements of tke people wko are in tke end responsible for tke
proper expenditure of Government funds, tke proper relationskip
between tke public and tke Goverimient in tke operation of tke project.
I kave tried to view it from this manner, that it was not for me to
decide, being a member of his organization, but after I reported the
conditions to him if he saw fit to act in accordance with his considered
judp^ment that was up to him.
The point there that I would like to bring out also is the fact that I
have not only felt a sense of loyalty to the project director, being a
part of his organization, but a sense of loyalty to the Office of Indian
Affairs, Mr. Collier, Mr. Zimmerman, Mr. Greenwood, and the people
charged with the responsibility of successfully operating the Indian
Service.
8986 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
They placed a great deal of confidence in me in sending me on what
they considered an important post. In dealing with budget matters
particularly, I have always felt that I was operating under the direc-
tion of Mr. Greenwood, the finance officer for the Indian Service.
He was the one that first interviewed me and asked me whether I
would go to Poston, and my reply to him was, since I was a native of
Arizona, "I am just fool enough to ask for that job," and I landed at
Poston; and I have been attempting to carry out my duties in a manner
satisfactory to the Indian Service and at the same time protect the
interests of the Government in properly accounting for all moneys
expended and all property acquired through the expenditure of
Government funds.
I would like also to say for the record that insofar as Mr. Townsend
is concerned, I have no ill feeling toward him. It has been difficult
for me to understand why he expressed so many ideas that were con-
structive with regard to the preservation of Government property and
was instrumental, in my opinion, of being able to establish some
constructive procedures, and still later on learn that he did what is
now shown in the record he did.
I still have that to work out with Mr. Townsend as the adminis-
trative man having reported it to the proper officials and as far as I am
concerned, why, I believe it can be settled amicably and to the ad-
vantage and interest of the Government.
I would like to also say, if it is all right with the committee, I would
like to make a statement in regard to Miss Findley. jVliss Findley
has come in for some very severe criticism. I would like to have it
known and like to have you gentlemen know that I came to know Miss
Findley during her tour of duty on the project, and while I could not
see the project's operations from her viewpoint, I have reason to be-
lieve that she is one of the most sincere persons that I have ever met.
She is^ — ^in her mind, she is honest, straightforward, and she will give
you the best justification that you ever heard in response to some of
your questions with regard to her ideas and actions. I don't think
there is any question ])ut vrhat she is very sincere and I think I should
also reiterate, possibly, or strengthen the point that in my opinion
that same thing is true of Mr. Collier and Mr. Head and others who
have been charged with the responsibility of the operation of this
project.
I have worked with them for a long period t>f time and I think that
they are very sincere in their efforts and I would like to take this
opportunity of expressing the appreciation and gratitude for the oppor-
tunity to appear before the committee and give you gentlemen some
of my viewpoints and an opportunity to let you have the other side
of the picture.
You have the files that I thought Mr. Townsend had taken without
permission. He told me in correspondence later that they would be
presented to me in the future and they would still be in Government
hands and in good hands, and I don't have any reason to question that
and on that basis I haven't been worried about it. I felt that way
about it; that if Mr. Townsend, even though I have reason now not to
employ him again in my organization, could bring about any good
results from the use of any files of a Government office and on that
basis that there must be some good could come from it, and I am in
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8987
hopes tluit is true, and as I say I hold no ill feeling against Mr.
Townsend; and I thank you very mueh.
Mr. CosTELLO. "We appreeiate your statement and the balance
of your testimony before^ the committee.
^Ir. MuNDT. You do feel, do j^ou not, Mr. Empie, there are possibly
some extenuating circumstances from Mr. Townsend 's point of view
concerning this one rather black mark on his escutcheon with regard
to this trip to Oklahoma City?
Mr. Empie. Not having any opportunity to discuss it with Mr.
Townsend, I don't question but what he has a very good reason and
that he could write a volume on it, but whether lie is sincere in it I
am at this moment open to conviction.
Mr. MuNDT. As T understand it he did not make a claim to the
Government for his expenses all the way to Oklahoma City? He left
that. I think you said, vacant in his claim.
Air. Empie. He did not make a claim for reimbursement of per diem
but he charged all the gasoline and oil to us. which we didn't like.
Mr. MuxDT. I don't blame you for that. I have one other question
You said you did not have anything to do with deciding whether or
not an applicant for indefinite leave has his application granted.
That responsibility is the responsibility of Mr. Head, as I under-
stand it.
Mr. Empie. In the end, yes. That goes through the legal office and
is approved by his office.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask one more question about the
Townsend matter.
As a matter of fact didn't Mrs. Townsend break her ankle at
Poston?
Mr. Empie. No, I understood she had trouble with her knee — she
had trouble with her knee and she was confined in the hospital.
Mr. Steedmax. At Poston?
Mr. Empie. Yes; she was in the hospital for several days and we
have a bill against Air. Townsend for $16 for that service that he
didn't pay.
Mr. Steedman. And there was a strike on at the time?
Mr. Empie. Well, I don't know whether the strike was on at the
time she hurt her knee or not.
Mr. Steedman. But at the time Mr. Townsend and his wife left
Poston there was a strike in progress?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And some of the other Caucasian women and chil-
dren were leaving the project at that time; isn't that correct?
Mr. Empie. Well, I believe that is true. I believe he influenced
them to leave.
Mr. Steedman. But in any event they were leaving, w^eren't they?
Mr. Empie. Well, in one instance. The man that worked under
his direct supervision walked out on me and I had to take charge of
that work myself. I dispatched the truck service for several days
myself personally and I issued slips for each man to use the trucks
because Townsend and Barrett both left during the strike.
Air. Steedman. But Townsend requested permission to take his
wife home, didn't he?
Mr. Empie. That is right, he did.
8988 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. And you gave him that permission, did you not?
Mr. Empie. Isn't it clear in the record that I gave him permission
to leave the project because he told me that he had personal business
to attend to?
Mr. Steedman. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLo. During the strike you handled the trucks in Mr.
Townsend's absence?
Mr. Empie. Yes, I did, and I handled them for a day or two after
he got back, until I convinced myself that he was going to take them
over and do the right thing.
Mr. Eberharter. I have one more question. Are you happy now
that you have had an opportunity to appear before this committee,
and do you feel that the questions asked of you were asked with open
minds and simply in an attempt to get at the real facts?
Mr. Empie. I believe so, yes, sir. I am firmly convinced that the
attitude of the committee and your very efficient interviewer has been
with the sincere desire to get at the foundation of the problem. I
think we all recognize it is a problem.
I like to recall the statement that Senator Chandler made in Phoenix.
He said:
It is a problem that none of us have the answer for. I don't know what the
answer is.
That was his statement.
I would like to think of myself as a citizen of the United States
taking my part in it on the basis of working it out to our mutual
advantage. I don't know what the solution is but I am willing to do
my part in trying to work it out if I can do so.
Mr. Costello. We want to thank you very much for having ap-
peared before the committee, Mr. Empie. I think you have been
very frank -in your testimony and in replying to the questions that
have been put to you.
I think the testimony you have given here will be helpful to us and
I trust that as a result of our hearing we may be able to be of some
service in trying to clean up the problems that do confront the War
Relocation Authority and to bring about a satisfactory handling of
this particular problem that does confront us.
Mr. Empie. I will be very gratified if that is true.
Mr. Costello. Thank you for having come here today. The
committee will stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 5 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 a. m.,
Thursday, June 10, 1943.)
INYESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAIUNDA ACTIV-
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, JUNE 10, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to
Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States
Post Office and Courtlioiise, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. John M.
Costello, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter, and
Hon. Karl E. Mundt.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee,
acting counsel.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
The witness this morning is Mayor Bowron, mayor of the city of
Los Angeles, who has consented to appear before the committee.
We appreciate very much your coming here. Mayor, because we
imderstand how busy you are with the many problems of running a
city of this size, and more particularly when you have added problems
throwTi upon you during the present time. But we are grateful to
you for coming here and appearing as a witness on behalf of the people
of Los Angeles.
Will you stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before' this subcommittee, will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Bowron. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FLETCHER BOWRON, MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES,
CALIF.
•
Mr. Costello. Will you please state your name for the record?
Mr. Bowron. Fletcher Bowron.
Mr. Costello. I understand, Mayor, that you might like to make
a statement to the committee regarding the Japanese relocation camps
and the attitude, generally, of the city of Los Angeles toward the
Japanese and their return to the Pacific coast.
Mr. Bowron. Well, I woukl be very glad to. Congressman Cos-
tello and members of the committee, the statements that I might give
are my own views. I think, however, that I reflect fairly accurately
the opinion of the big majority of the people of this community.
Speaking for myself I feel that it would be very dangerous for the
Japanese or any of them, to be returned to tlie Pacific coast area and
8989
62626— 43— vol. 15 11
8990 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
particularly to the Los Angeles metropolitan section, during the con-
tinuance of the war.
I do not profess to have any information of a military character or
as indicative of what their operations might be if returned as reflecting
upon the safety of the community from a military point of view. But
I do believe that the people here are thoroughly aroused; that it would
be very unsafe for the Japanese themselves; and, of course, what would
be the natm-al _ inference if any unfortunate occmrence should be re-
corded and relayed across the Pacific, naturally we would fear for the
safety of those who are in custody of the Japanese Government.
With reference to those in the relocation centers I have made no
investigation. I have not personally visited any of the relocation
centers. I know nothing of my own knowledge as to conditions or
treatment. Such opinions as I have are merely those of a citizen who
has secm"ed his information from seCond-hand sources.
I believe, however, from such communications as I have received
from many people in this locality that it is the opinion and belief of the
big majority of the citizens of southern California that the Japanese,
whether they be born in this country or otherwise, should be under
guard, should be watched and should be retained either in a relocation
center, or if they are put out to do some work that might assist in the
production of food or other production, should be supervised and not
scattered among the civilian population.
We here in Los Angeles have had our own experiences and know
from our own knowledge that many that we thought very friendl}*
were given the opportunity to enter homes of our citizens; converse
with people of this locality and who aj^peared very courteous and
friendly and seemingly inoffensive, later tm-ned out to be repre-
sentatives of the Japanese Government, undoubtedly in search of
mformation of military value.
We also feel from our knowledge and association of years with
Japanese that no one can tell who is loyal and who is not loyal. I
think the people of this locality feel that the big majority of Japanese
wherever they may be located, in concentration camps or whether
they have been released to work or perform some occupation, are
probably loyal to this country and would do nothing, but I challenge
anyone — any one at all to pick out the one who is loyal and who is
potentially dangerous. I do not think there is any known test.
Certainly right here in this locality we have had our experiences
and commg closer to my own official position, we had a nunrber of
employees withui the city government, most of whom are probably
loyal to this country and some of whom we believed to be
loyal up until the time and even after the Pearl Harbor episode, but
our own investigation convinced us otherwise and we know that some
of those whom we believed to be actively engaged in behalf of the
Japanese Government has since been released from relocation centers
and we have not been consulted. No one told us that they were be-
mg released. No one consulted their employers to see if we have any
information concerning them, but by devious methods and routes we
have learned that they have been released.
I believe that so far as the economy of this locality is concerned,
while prior to the war we depended very largely upon the Japanese
population for food supply, particularly on the Japanese fishing fleet
and truck gardners and those engaged in the retail distribution of
UN-AAIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8991
fruits and produce, but we have largely adjusted ourselves to the
cliaugetl conditions and we do not need the Japanese. We are pay-
ing more for our produce, more for our vegetables and fruit and fish
but I believe the people of this locality are very glad to pay the dif-
ference in the price in money for the secinity that we feel is a result
of the absence of the Japanese from this locality.
If you would direct my attention to matters that the committee
would like to have me refer to, we probably can save the time of the
committee.
Mr. CosTELLO. One thought I have; you mentioned the matter of
never having been consulted regarding the release of any of the
Japanese from the camps. Has there been no single instance where
anyone in the city administration has been interrogated about a
former city employee of Japanese ancestry before he was released?
Mr. BowRON. Not to my knowledge. I know that no inquiry
has come to me and I think I am pretty close in touch with those
officials and departments of the city government that would ordinarily
be consulted if that was thought advisable or necessary by those who
are in charge of releasing Japanese from relocation centers.
Mr. CosTELLO. It has been indicated to the committee that in
releasing the Japanese they are relying entirely upon their records
established by the Japanese themselves at the relocation camps and
a cursory check, possibly, of their past police records, but that no
effort has been made to check with formei* employees or employers
as to what their attitude might be regarding such individuals.
Mr. BowRON. Let me say a police record is not indicative of any-
thing so far as I can see. Generally speaking the Japanese in this
locality have been law abiding. We have had very little trouble with
them over the years so far as violatmg the statutes are concerned, and
by reason of that fact we have not been very inquisitive to find out
what they have been doing and much to our amazement after the
beginning of the war we apparently learned that nobody else was in-
quisitive as to what they were doing; that there was no agency that
was actually making an investigation.
So far as I am aware this committee has made gi-eater strides in
finding out what had been going on dm-ing times of peace than any
other agency of the Federal Government or elsewhere.
It was not the function of the State goveriunent, of course, to make
any such inquny.
^Ir. CosTELLO. About the only direct investigation of Japanese
activities w^as that of the fishing fleet; isn't that correct?
Mr. BowRON. So far as I know.
Mr. Co'^TELLO. No one was concerned about those engaged in
agricultural pursuits as to wiiat they were doing or their activities
when not on the farm or anything of that character.
Regarding agi'icultural production, Mayor, has there been any de-
crease in the amount of foodstuffs available in the city because of the
lack of Japanese in the farm areas?
Mr. BowRON. I cannot give you accurate information relative to
that because I have made no investigation. I believe that there has
been quite a considerable decrease in available foods in the nature of
fresh vegetables and berries and fruit, but I have already indicated
that I think the people of this locality are willing to adjust themselves.
8992 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. I have heard the report since I have been home that
the total amount of products produced is greater than when the
Japanese were here but that certain truck graden products have
diminished, such as celery and head lettuce and things of that char-
acter.
Mr. BowRON. That may be true, but I want to emphasize the fact
that that is a matter that I have not inquired into and it is merely
an impression.
Mr. CosTELLO. Another question: Don't you feel it is rather bad
economy to allow any group of people of alien ancestry to gain control
-of some particular item in our economy such as was the condition
here in Los Angeles County where people of Japanese ancestry had
almost complete control of agricultural production?
Mr. BowRON. Well, our retrospection, of course, is better than our
realization at the time. Now, we realize that is true but it was
merely natural, because there have been few others that would adapt
themselves to the kind of work on the truck farms that the Japanese
so readily adjusted themselves to and everyone was content to let
them pursue those occupations that requhed long hours and squatting
and digging and gathering strawberries and celery and similar articles
that are produced on the truck farms.
Mr. CosTELLO. Those are all the questions I have; Mr. Eber-
harter, do you have any questions?
Mr. Eberharter. Mayor Bowron, the very fact that the Japanese
are law abiding insofai* as city or municipal ordinances are con-
cerned, as well as State laws, in yom- opinion does that make them
potentially more dangerous in that no suspicion is ever created that
they would do anything wrong or that would be detrimental to the
Government?
Mr. Bowron. They are potentially more dangerous for the reason
that you have no basis to form a suspicion. It is my belief and
possibly not formed upon sufficient experience or information, that
those who are potentially the most dangerous have seen to it that they
have avoided suspicion by their conduct.
I am, of course, not at liberty to quote my authority but I know
that it is believed that the very fact that there has been or was not
before the relocation of the Japanese, any individual acts of sabotage
was indicative that the entire population was controlled directly, and
the system was here for such direction through the various organiza-
tions which interlocked, leading up to the consulate and fanning out to
every man or woman or child on the truck farms, so that they could be
readily reached and directed. And it is reasonable to believe that they
were instructed that they should do nothing but just bide th^ir time
until they received instructions so that whatever they did could he
effective and en masse.
Mr. Eberharter. Have the Japanese a peculiar quality insofar as
gaining the confidence of their employer is concerned?
Mr. Bowron. Yes, I believe that is true; and let me illustrate by
our own experience in the city government.
Tn a report of your own committee you will find that back in 1936
I believe it was, an inquuy was made for detailed information
relative to our water system through the Japanese consulate. After
Pearl Harbor I thought that it was a good idea to find out how many
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTRITIES 8^93
Ja panose we had, what thoy were doing and the character of their
work and the availability of information of military value.
We found that we had, as I recall, something over 40 employed—
some in rather strategic positions. We had several in our civil-service
department who could be of gi-eat assistance in not only the employ-
ment of other Japanese, but in seeing that they were placed in a
position where they could secure very valuable information.
We found that we had a number of them in our department of water
and power where they not only had available to them— I do not know
and have no information, of com-se, whether they made use of theu*
opportunity, but they had available to them not only all of the in-
formation that had been requested through the consulate in 1936
and which the chief engineer of the water depart.ment refused to give,
but they could have sabotaged our entire electric distribution system
in the city of Los Angeles.
We found that they were located in various other departments and
I called their immediate superiors together and suggested that it
probably would be a good idea for the safety of the city and for the
protection of the people in the community, to discontinue the work of
these employees — all of them.
I foiuid among very good Americans a resentment because these
employee's were trusted employees. They had ingratiated themselves
with then- superiors and they said:
We can't discharge these men, they are some of the best, most faithful employees
we have.
I think it is generally true that the Japanese are good workers
They give every appearance of faithfulness in theu' work, and having
those qiuilities necessarily they are disarming.
Air. Eberharter. Mayor, in spite of what happened at Pearl Har-
bor, in spite of the history of the Japanese people, do you think that
if they were thrown in contact with persons who had had no experience
with them before, those persons would be more liable to succumb to
the mannerisms and the ingratiating qualities of the Japanese and
thereby tend to have more confidence in them than they should have?
In other words we have had some testimony to the effect that many of
the Caucasian people who are working in a supervisory capacity in
some of the camps had no previous experience whatsoever with the
Japanese people. Do you think that those supervisors would be more
likely to be fooled, say, by the Japanese than those who have had some
actual experience with them?
Mr. BowRON. I think very decidedly they could bo easil}^ fooled
and probabl}^ have been because we have been fooled right here in
Los Angeles and been fooled for a great many years when we thought
we knew them from our experience of constant association.
Mr. Eberharter. Do \"ou thinlc any Japanese could be trusted?
To trust him would be very much of a speculation even in isolated
cases.
Mr. BowRON. No; I don't believe that. I think that the big
majority of them, if we only knew — if we could separate the sheep
from the goats, I think that the big majority of them would be good
American citizens, but I just chalh nge anybody to apply the test.
Mr. Eberharter. Those who have had experience with the
Japanese, vou feel, would not even be able to separate the good from
the bad?
8994 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. BowRON. That is ri2;ht.
Mr. Eberharter. Let alone those who had no experience?
Mr. BowRON. I think their experience and their philosophy has
perfected* them in deceit and those that are the most dangerous are
entirely disarming.
Mr. Eberharter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. Did you say, Mayor Bowron, the F. B. I. never
consulted you or the responsible heads of your departments about the
possibility of releasing these men from these relocation centers before
they were released?
- Mr. Bowron. I cannot make that statement because I do not know.
There is a very close working relationship between our police depart-
ment and the F. B. I. They may have consulted the police depart-
ment but if that was done they probably merely referred to police
reports and went no further.
Mr. Mundt. From your experience with the Japanese it seems to
be indicated that even if the F. B. I. were to go further than the police
department they would more or less be following blind alleys because
the Japanese didn't do anything of an overt nature wliich they could
look upon to detect their loyalty or disloyalty; isn't that right?
Mt. Bowron. That is right, exactly.
Mr. Mundt. We were told by some of the earlier witnesses that in
the Boston project they thought — they weren't sure — but they thought
that the F. B. I., perhaps, was checking into the background of these
men before they were released. This committee expects to find out
whether that is a reality or just a hope expressed by those witnesses.
But even though it is a reality, would you feel that that is sufficient
to clear a man. for release from the projects smiply because the F. B. I.
said:
We find nothing in our records to indicate disloyalty on the part of some
specific Japanese.
Mr. Bowron. I decidedly do not; and let me illustrate by again
coming to some of our own employees. No investigation was made
as to certain of those employees, I am sure, by anyone. We felt we
had gone as far as we coiild when we separated them from their
employment.
Since the military acted- — and let me say that I feel that Lt. Gen.
John L. DeWitt has performed a ver^ great service to the people of
California and the Pacific coast by his timely and intelligent action.
We were so relieved that we just dropped all investigation as soon as
the Japanese were away and we went no further.
But since that time much information has come to us about some
of our employees that we didn't even suspect, which has convinced
us that they were potentially very dangerous.
Now, we haven't felt that it was necessary to pass on that informa-
tion to the F. B. I. because we thought, naturally enough, the Japanese
were in a position of security so far as the rest of the population was
concerned, but had we been advised that there was any possibility of
their being released and going about peaceful pui'suits among the
civilian population, of course, we would have been verj glad to have
supplied whatever information that we could dig up.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTWITIES 8995
Mr. MuNDT. Do. you have in your files or in your mind the names
of some specific Japanese who were formerly in the employ of the
city and about whom you have subsequently received fau*ly unim-
peachable information as to their disloyalty?
Mr. BowRON. I don't think any information is "unimpeachable."
Mr. MuNDT. Fairly accurate information.
Mr. BowRON. Because we just can't afford to wait until we get
information that would support a conviction, let us say, in a court
of law when we are thinking of the safety of our population.
Mr. MuNDT. Let me put the question another way: Do you have in
your mind or in your hies the names of former Japanese employees
upon whom you feel there is a considerable cloud of suspicion at the
present time?
Mr. BowRON. Yes, yes ; we have,
Mr. MuNDT. I wonder if those names could be made available to the
committee, either for public or private record as you prefer, so that
our investigators might check up and see where they went from your
employ and whether or not they have been released and if they have
been released where they have gone.
I feel we should get our procedure down as specificall}^ as we can
because if we have a dangerous Japanese by the name of "Tojo," or
whatever is a good Japanese name, we ought to be after the rascal now.
Don't you agree with me?
Mr. BowRON. Yes. I may say that we have been in rather close
touch with Mr. Steedman. I think he knows practically everything
that we do, but we would be glad to give to him, or directly to the
committee, any additional information that we have.
Mr. MuNDT. For example, I want to know^ whether any of those
Japanese upon whom you feel there is a considerable suspicion are
among those that the Army has been recruiting and putting in uniform.
We now have a considerable number of Japanese in the Army.
Some of them, as I understand, were recruited from the relocation
centers and I think it would be interesting to know whether they are
there or whether they are working out in the South Dakota beet
patches, which interests me, or where they are.
Mr. BowRON. Personally I think they would be a whole lot safer
in the Army than they would be acting as domestics in private homes.
Mr. MuNDT. That interests me. ^Y[ly do you think they would
be safer in the Army and in uniform if they have a subversive back-
ground?
Mr. BowRON. Because they would be under discipline and under
constant watch and under military command.
Mr. MuNDT. How about during their off hours when thev are
walking up and down the streets in a uniform? Wouldn't they have
access to a lot of places that a civilian couldn't go? It seems to me
they would be more dangroeus in the Army than out of it.
Sir. BowRON. I just assume the militaiy would not permit that.
Mr. MuNDT. Give them a little special treatment, you mean?
Mr. BowRON. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. Well, I dislike very much to reply upon the Japanese
forming any part of our Army.
Mr. BowRON. I am not advocating it but I am just suggesting that
I think it is veiy dangerous indeed to have these Japanese scattered
8996 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
throughout the country where they can promote propaganda and
where they can come in closer contact with enemy agents, if there be
such, and supply them with information, and particularly so in the
vicinity of production areas.
Air. CosTELLO. Might I interrupt? In other words, it was your
thought if the Japanese should be released from these camps for the
purpose of working they should be assembled in large numbers in
some segregated area where tbey could be watched in that area rather
than scattered throughout, say, as domestics in homes and all over
the country?
Mr. BowRON. That would be my idea; my opinion.
Mr. CosTELLO. The same situation then would apply to those in
the Army where, as I understand it, the Japanese are being retained
m separate units in the Army, and being in those large groups m
the military organization if they were in some particular location
their activities off the post could be watched more closely than if
they were scattered likewise in the Arm}^, individually all through
the Army?
Mr. BowRON. Yes. And I realize that what I advocate is prob-
ably an injustice to a big part of the Japanese because I really believe
that the big majority of them are proper Americans, but the difficulty
is, the big chance we are running in saying that this man can be relied
upon because he has never proclaimed his loyalty to the Mikado —
that is outwardly in such a way that we would .set him aside as a
potentially dangerous Japanese.
Mr. CosTELLO. When the Japanese were located here in California
they were given complete access to all strategic installations such as
pipe lines and oil fields and refineries and things of that kind.
Mr. BowRON. I think the Japanese who lived in the Los Angeles
metropolitan area knew infintely more about the physical facts than
the average American citizen.
Mr. CosTELLO. However, the number of Japanese elsewhere in
the country was rather limited and for that reason they possibly have
much less infor^nation conerning the country generally. However,
don't you feel that by scattering the Japanese now throughout the
country that that creates a great new field of strategic information
available to the Japanese, particularly those who wish to obtain infor-
mation for military purposes?
Mr. BowRON. That would be my fear as just an ordinary citizen
who knows nothing about the military value of their information or
the means of transmitting it, but I do know that we are in a war and
the object is to win it and not take any chances.
Mr. CosTELLO. During peacetime when we had the Japanese
consular agents throughout the State, there was a very close tie, was
there not, between those consular agents and the Japanese people?
Mr. BowRON. Very close. I know that of my own knowledge and
from my own observation. And that close tie was not limited to the
subjects of the Japanese Government but apparently it was just as
close and just as direct with the second generation who were born
here in California.
Mr. CosTELLO. And all these Japanese societies and organizations
had a very close affiliation with those consular officers, isn't that
correct?
Mr. BowRON. Very close.
UN-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTRITIES 8997
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words the local consul actually was the
leading figure of the Japanese people in the community and exerted
a very direct influence tlu-ough the societies and things of that Jvind
over all the Japanese people here?
Mr. BowRON. I cannot speak for other locations but that was true
in the Los Angeles area.
Mr. CosTELLO. From investigations the committee has previously
made, it is indicated there is an extremely close tie between the
consular agents and both the foreign-born and American-born
Japanese.
I wonder if it would be possible, Mayor, to make a direct check
with the head of the police department subversive bureau, and par-
ticularly with the department of water and power, to inquire whether
any requests have come to those departments concerning indi\adual
Japanese, concerning whom it was proposed to release from the relo-
cation centers.
Mr. BowRON. I shall be glad to do that.
Mr. CosTELLO. You might send a letter to Mr. Steedman indicat-
ing the response you receive from those departments.
Mr. BowRON. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Any further questions by members of the com-
mittee?
Mr. AIuNDT. One other question.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. MuNDT. I have received some letters and others have told me
in conversations privately, that they have tried to do the thing that
we have all tried to do with great futility so far, and that is to dis-
tinguish between a loyal and disloyal Japanese. I quite agree with
you the whole group probably is not bnd, but the difficulty is to find
those who are.
It has been suggested that the Clmstian Japanese can be counted
upon for their loyalty whereas those who have maintained their
aboriginal religions, which I think we know as Buddhism or Shintoism,
would be more inclined to be disloyal. Is there anything in your
experience which would either verify or disprove that theory?
Mr. BowRON. No. As a matter of fact, those here whom we
suspect the most profess the Christian religion.
Mr. Mundt. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Mayor, I have one question I would like to
ask before you conclude your testimony.
I would like to direct your attention particularly to a Japanese
known as Kiyoshi P. Okura, who was an examiner in the Civil
Service Commission of Los Angeles.
Is it your information that Kiyoshi P. Okura has been released
from a relocation center?
iSlr. BowRON. It is my information that he has been released and
is now in a place where he is influencing the philosophy of the future
citizens of this countiy, in an institution that cares for boys.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think it is a dangerous place for Mr.
Okura to be?
Mr. BowRON. I think it is very dangerous; possibly not immedi-
ately for the pui-poses of the war but certainly we are not interested in
8998 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
molding the thoughts of our future citizens along the lines that we
believe his philosophy to be.
Mr. Steedman. Did the War Relocation Authority communicate
with you regarding the release of Mr. Okura?
Mr. BowRON. I have had no communication from any source
relative to him. My information was merely incidental and came to
me from some friends of mine.
Mr. Steedman. The reason for the question is that we have had
assurances from the officials at the Relocation Center at Poston,
that they conununicated with the former employers of all Japanese
before releasing them.
I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLo. We appreciate veiy much your having come before
us this morning, Mayor. I do know you are quite busy and I want to
thank you for your testimony. We believe it has been quite helpfid
in giving us the general picture as to the local attitude toward the
Japanese, and also your beliefs concerning the danger and the menace
the Japanese might be if allowed to return to either the Pacific coast
area or to be scattered even generally thi'oughout the country.
We thank you very much.
Mr. BowRON. And I thank you for this opportunity.
Mr. CosTELLo. We will take a short recess.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order.
In view of the testimony which was presented to the committee just
as the mayor was leaving, I think it might be well for Mr. Steedman
to elaborate somewhat upon that information. For that reason I am
going to ask Mr. Steedman to be sworn.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES H. STEEDMAN, INVESTIGATOR, SPECIAL
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Steedman, in the process of questioning Mayor
Bowron, the matter of the employment of this man Okura came up.
Do you Imow the name of the institution at which Okura is now
employed? Have you received any definite information as to where
he went from the relocation camp?
Mr. Steedman. I haven't checked on that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. You personally do not know the name of the insti-
tution? For the purposes of the record, it is my understanding that
the school is Father Flannagan's Boys Town in Nebraska.
I am quite sure that there won't be much opportunity for Mr.
Okura to indulge in any subversive or un-American activities at Boys
Town, and I am quite confident, and I am sure the people of the
country realize that Father Flannagan conducts a very American
institution there, and if any subversive activities were attempted
Father Flannagan would know about it and immediately release Mr.
Okura from his employment.
You don't know what type of work he might be doing there,
do .you?
Mr. Steedman. No; I do not, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. I judge from the statement of the mayor that the
War Relocation authorities did not consult with the mayor concerning
Okura's background and, therefore, did not release that information
UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 8999
to Father Flannagan at the time that he was released to him for
em ploy 111 en t.
Mr. Steedman. T believe that is the testimony of the mayor; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. I wonder if you would read into the record the
testimony before the Dies committee which has been previously
printed, concerning Mr. Okura.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am reading from appendix VI,
Report on Japanese Activities entitled "Hearings Before a Special
Committee on Un-American iVctivities, House of Representatives,
Seventy-Seventh Congress, lirst Session on House Resolution 282,
page 1782:
However, in the operation of their espionage system, the Japanese were not
easily discouraged. Working through the Civil Service Commission, Japanese
were able to infiltrate Japanese-Americans into the department of water and
power. Kiyoshi P. Okura has for some time past been the chief examiner of the
Los Angeles Civil Service Commission. He is the son of Momota Okura, who
was the commandant of the Southern California Imperial Veterans Association
(Japanese) and an adviser for the Central Japanese Association. Momota
Okura was an alien Japanese, and being a Japanese war veteran, was under the
jurisdiction of the Japanese Government. Momota Okura has been arrested by
the Federal Bureau of Investigation and is now being detained. So much for the
background of Kiyoshi P. Okura's father, Momota Okura.
Kiyoshi P. Okura was a director of social relations in the Southern California
Chamber of Commerce and Industry, a Japanese governmental agency. In his
official position as chief examiner of the Los Angeles Civil Service Commission,
he «'as helpful to Japanese-Americans desirous of obtaining positions with the
Los Angeles city government, and this was especially true with reference to the
Los Angeles City Water and Power Department.
It is significant that prior to the Japanese consulate's request, only one Japanese-
American was on the pay roll of the department of water and power in Los
Angeles, uhereas subsequent to his request, 12 additional Japanese-Americans
were placed on the pay roll of that department. A list of those employees,
together with information as to residence, birthplace, birth date, class, status,
division, and location, and length of service, is given below at the end of this
subsection.
While it is true that these Japanese-American employees of the department
of water and power complied with the legal requirements of the civil service
commission and they were the ones duly certified to the department of water and
power when that branch of the city government requested technical help, inves-
tigation has revealed that Kiyoshi P. Okura made it a point to help Japanese-
Americans secure employment with the department of water and power.
Since the committee's exposure of the number of Japanese employed in the
department of water and power, the Honorable Fletcher T. Bowron, mayor of
the city of Los Angeles, has taken prompt action and has suspended not only
the 13 Japanese working in that department but all other Japanese employed by
the city. The Board of Supervisors of Los Angeles County has taken similar
action and has suspended all Japanese in the county's employ.
That is the end of the quotation, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. I think we might also add for the record right there,
as an indication of the possible far-reaching implications of releasing
a man like Okura from the relocation center without providing his
prospective employer with a full and faithful record of his past activi-
ties, that it should be added that at this particular school where it is
alleged he is located, he is close to one of the vital never centers of the
defense industries of America, because Omaha is a great transportation
center. It is near a tremendous development in aviation and is close
to a number of power centers and power plants in Nebraska.
The emphasis is the importance of protecting prospective em-
ploj^ers by giving them, from the relocation centers, a complete report
and it is highly unfortunate that those reports are not being made
available now.
9000 UN-AMERiaiN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
l\lv. CosTELLO. Mr. Stecdman, in view of the location of the city of
L<os Angeles perhaps there is nothing more vital here than the supply
of water and power, is that not correct?
Mr. Steedman. That is my understanding; yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, being a semiarid comitry the city
depends very largely upon its water supply which comes from a great
distance. ,
Mr. Steedman. That is my information.
Mr. CosTELLO. And these Japanese who had been employed by
the department of water and power were therefore in a position to
obtain very accurate and definite information as to the location of the
dams, the city reservoirs, the aqueducts, as well as the power stations
and the power lines leading from the sources of water supply mto the
city of Los Angeles?
Mr. Steedman. I believe the mayor so testified tliis morning, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. And those persons being in that particular agency
of the city government had access to very accurate, detailed informa-
tion concerning the most vital thing in southern California, namely,
water and power supply to this great metropolitan area and if there
was any desire to connnit sabotage that one vital thing would be the
most practical thing to assault and if they were at all successful in
destroying the supply of water to this city it would mean the stoppage
of the industrial production that is now taking place here in tliis county
am I correct? s^
Mr. Steedman. I thmk your statement is correct. I think in order
to answer it fully it would be necessary to go into the job classifications
of the Japanese who were employed m the city's department of water
and power.
Mr. CosTELLO. And that is published in a public document of the
committee, is it not?
Mr. Steedman. That is right; on page 1783 of appendix VI, the
report from which I read a moment ago, on Japanese activities.
IMr. CosTELLO. In view of the fact it is aheady published, I don't
think it is necessary for us to incorporate it in this record, but it is
yoiu" understanding that those Japanese were employed in veiy key
positions which made very accurate and valuable information avail-
able to them; is that not tiue?
Mr. Steedman. I would sa}^ they had access to the various records
compiled by the department of water and power.
Mr. CosTELLO. Maps and so forth?
Mr. Steedman. Yes. In connection with their positions I will be
glad to read into the record the job classifications if the committee
would like to have that.
Mr. CosTELLo. Mr. Steedman, do you have the date on which they
were discharged from service, or were they all released from service at
the same time?
Mr. Steedman. I can't answer that question just at this time, Mr.
Chairman. I am not prepared to give you that information.
Mr. CosTELLO. The suggestion has been made that the list of names
as tabulated in the former report be incorporated into this record.
If there is no objection on the par< of the committee that table will
be reproduced in the report at this point.
(The public document referred to was made a part of the record by
reference and is as follows:)
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
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9002 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you call your next witness?
Mr. Steedman. The next witness is Mr. Jesse L. Elliott, who is the
sheriff of Orange County. Orange County adjoins Los Angeles
County on the south.
Mr. CosTELLO. We are ver}?^ glad to have you with us, Mr. Elliott.
Will you stand and be sworn.
TESTIMONY OF JESSE L. ELLIOTT, SHERIFF OF ORANGE COUNTY,
CALIF.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your name to the reporter, Mr.
Elliott?
Mr. Elliott. Jesse L. Elliott.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may question the witness, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I requested Sheriff Elliott to come
to Los Angeles this morning to give the committee the benefit of his
testimony regarding the attitude of the citizens of Orange County
toward the Japanese and what their reaction would be were the
Japanese to return to the Pacific coast.
I believe Sheriff Elliott has a statement he would like to make to
the committee.
Mr. CosTELLO. We are very happy to hear you, Sheriff, and ap-
preciate any statement you feel would be appropriate.
Mr. Elliott. Orange County, as you gentlemen know, is an agri-
cultural section of the State.
There were a number of Japanese people living in Orange County
prior to the evacuation, being occupied mostly in agricultural pursuits
and in the various phases of agriculture.
The people of Orange County do not feel that they want the Japa-
nese returned to their former homes or places occupied by them, par-
ticularly during the existing emergency.
I have conferred with a number of our citizens, old-time farmers as
we would term them, and hi no uncertain way do the}^ express them-
selves that they will not tolerate the return of the Japanese people
during this emergency.
I have conferred with many of the marines and soldiers who have
had service in the south Pacific area and we are fearful if the Japanese
are returned as to what will happen.
Mr. Costello. You have a considerable number of returned ma-
rines and soldiers who are located in Orange County?
Mr. Elliott. That is right, sir.
Mr. Costello. And you feel that their attitude toward all Japa-
nese would be extremely hostile because of the things that the}^ wit-
nessed in the course of warfare?
Mr. Elliott. Yes; and the experiences that they have had.
Mr. Costello. Would you care to state briefly some of those in-
stances as they may have related them to you?
Mr. Elliott. We have in Orange County many military place-
ments at the present time. We have a large Marine Corps place-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9003
ment. There are many men there from the south Pacific sector being
recontUtioned.
Is this for the press now? •
Mr. CosTELLO. At the moment it is on the record but if there is
anything you feel should not be made public, we can direct it be off
the record' and it will not be repeated. We have that understanding
and assurance from all the press representatives here today.
Mr. Elliott. The expression of the majority of these servicemen is: ^
Mr. CosTELLO. Have any of the men stated to you any particular
instance in the south seas that led up to their expression of hostility
toward the Japanese soldiers?
Mr. Elliott. Yes; they have related what they have been tlirough;
the experiences of having their buddies killed, blown to pieces beside
them; the treatment received by their buddies when captured by the
Japanese; the way they treated wounded men, and the general con-
ditions existing over in the south Pacific-Guadalcanal and the other
islands on which they have had service.^
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think in view of the fact we have a
large number of American boys who are prisoners of the Japanese,
that the sheriff's statement about the Idlling of the Japanese should
be off the record. It can do no good and might do harm.
Mr. Elliott. "What we want to do is enforce the law. If we are
going to protect the people who are held as hostages over there, it is
necessary to protect these people here and we feel by returning them
to the coastal area should something unfortunate happen to one of the
Japanese people, no doubt retaliatory measures would immediately
be taken on the other section of the front and that is the thing we are
interested in.
Mr. CosTELLO. In talking with some of these returned servicemen,
3'ou find they verified the many stories that have been published from
time to time regarding the treachery on the part of the Japanese?
Mr. Elliott. Yes.
Mr. Costello. For example, a wounded Japanese having a hand
grenade under him and when they go to pick him up and bring him
in, the hand grenade would discharge, and things of that character,
Mr. Elliott. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have they told you of a large number of such
instances?
Mr. Elliott. They have.
Mr. Cost]:llo. Have you any questions, Mr. Eberhartcr?
Mr. Eberharter. No questions.
Mr. Costello. Do you have any further statement you wish to
make, Mr. Sheriff?
Mr. Elliott. Not at this time, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I have another witness from Orang(> County whom
I would like to have sworn next. His name is Mr. Frank C. Latham
who is with the Farm Bureau of Orange County.
Mr. Costello. Very well, Mr. Latham, will you'please stand and
be sworn?
s The expression of the servicemen ordered stricken from the record by Mi . Mundt.
9004 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
TESTIMONY OF FRANK C. LATHAM, IMMEDIATE AND PAST
PRESIDENT OF ORANGE COUNTY, CALIF., FARM BUREAU
The witness was duly sworn by the chah-man.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your name for the record?
\h\ Latham. Franlv C Latham.
Mr. CosTELLO. And what is your occupation, Mr. Latham?
Mr. Latham. I am a rancher — farmer, citrus grower rather, the
immediate and past president of the Orange County Farm Bureau.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you proceed with your questions, Mr. Steed-
man?
Mr. Steedman. How many members does the Orange County
Farm Bureau have among the ranchers, farmers, and orange growers
in Orange County?
Mr. Latham. At the present time we have about 1,740.
Mr. Steedman. Was a large number of Japanese employed on the
ranches and in various other agricultmal enterprises in Orange
County prior to Pearl Harbor?
Mr. Latham. No. A Japanese refuses to work for white people.
They do their own farming and work for each other.
Mr. Costello. That is in regard to agricultm-al activities?
Mr. Latham. Yes.
Mr. Costello. But they do work as domestics?
Mr. Latham. Yes; but in agricidtural pm'suits they work among
their own people.
Mr. Steedman. What is the general attitude of the farmers and
ranchers of Orange County toward the retm'n of the Japanese to
the Pacific coast?
Mr. Latham. The general opinion, with a very few and rare excep-
tions, is that during this emergency it would be a big mistake to
return them to the coast.
Mr. Steedman. Are farming operations in Orange County con-
tinuing as usual with the Japanese gone?
Mr. Latham. Yes. I have here if you care for a copy of it, the
acreage and the crops that were grown by the Japanese in Orange
County; the amount of acreage that was owned by the Japanese,
and I wish to say that that land is all being faiTned now. We are
not growing some of the crops that they did. We are stressing the
more essential crops. It is harder to get your strawberries and a
few things like that than in the past but the land is being farmed and
farmed efficiently — as efficiently as it can be with the present labor
situation.
Mr. Costello. The change in the type of crops is due, possibly, to a
shortage of manpower and so you are' putting in crops that do not
require as much labor, is that correct?
Mr. Latham. That is correct; and also there are some crops that
we list as nonessential to the war effort that we are discontinuing and
we are trying to grow crops that are necessary to help win the war.
Mr. Steedman. It is your opmion that the people of Orange
County do not want the Japanese returned to that locality?
Mr. Latham. I know very definitely that they will not allow them
to be their neighbors like they were in the past during this emergency.
There are too many of them that have boys who are in the service.
Mr. Steedman. And it is your belief their return would complicate
law enforcement?
riS'-AMERICAN PROPAGAXDA ACTIMTIES 9005
Mr. Latham. Very definitelj\
Mr. Steedman. I have no fuvthcr questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have llic statement you referred to?
Mr. Latham. Yes; I have a statement. I wish to clarify this
statement. This was taken shortly after Pearl Harbor and some of
these crops and acreages may be off one way or the other. We found
when we were takmg this inventory that the Japanese were such liars
you could not depend on them. This gives the number of acres that
are owned. The Japanese in Orange Count}^ are mostly just small
farmers; it would be a family unit or two or three families and that is
eciuall}^ true regarding acreage that they leased and also the acreage
that they owned. There were no large holdmgs.
Mr. Steedman. Have you discussed with any of the white Ameri-
cans who have taken over the lands formerly farmed by the Japanese,
the manner in which such transfers was accomplished?
Mr. Latham. Yes, sir; I have. I was veiy much interested in
that at the time and the Japanese got the best of the deal.
■ ^Ir. Steedman. Did they misrepresent the condition of the soil?
Mr. Latham. That is true.
Mr. Steedman. Did they misrepresent to those acquiring the land
from them that growing crops had been properly fertilized wdien such
was not the fact?
Mr. Latham. Yes; there were very few of the crops that were
fertilized during the year of 1942 — that is spring fertilizer.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese assure the white Americans who
bought these places that the lands had been fertilized?
Mr. Latham. In some cases they did — that is true.
Mr. Steedman. Has that been reported to you?
Mr. Latham. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Were there any Japanese members of the Farm
Bureau?
Mr. Latham. Yes; we had a small membership in the Farm
Bureau. I think there were 30 or 40 or something like that. We
gave them quite a bit of service— that is personal service. We were
ti-ying to help them on their labor situation. They were always low
on the price that they would pay labor.
Mr. MuNDT. Did the Farm Bureau solicit those memberships or
did they sort of push themselves into the organization?
Mr. Latham. They were solicited in most cases.
Mr. MuNDT. Did they make, apparently, good cooperative farmers
or did they form a clique or bloc within the organization?
Mr. Latham. No. They took very little part in the activities of
the Farm Bureau while obtaining a good many services that the
Farm Bureau provides.
Mr. MuNDT. What is the nature of the arrangement which has
been made with the Japanese owners by the white farmer? Have
they bought the Japanese farms in each case or do they rent them
from the Japanese?
Mr. Latham. The Japanese refused to sell. In fact, the last few
days or the last month before the Japanese left Orange County, they
bought as much acreage as they possibly could.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Japanese aclualiy increased their holdings at
the time they were being evacuated?
GJGJG — 43- vol. 15 12
9006 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Latham. That is correct. In the months of March and April
of 1942 they increased their holdmgs wherever they could, in Orange
County.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is that indicated on the statement that you have?
Mr. Latham. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. The statement would be indicative of the holdings
of Japanese prior to Pearl Harbor?
Mr. Latham. That statement is the acreage which was taken
immediately after the Japanese were evacuated.
Mr. Costello. Would that indicate the increased buyings on the
part of the Japanese?
Mr. Latham. Yes; that is true. Now, that acreage, I would say,
is possibly 95 percent accurate. There have been a few changes.
Mr. Costello. The statement indicates that 10,000 acres were
farmed by the Japanese?
Mr. Latham. That is true.
Mr. Costello. And of that amount 1,175 acres were actually
owned by the Japanese?
Mr. Latham. Yes, sir; that is true.
Mr. Costello. What percentage of that Japanese-owned acreage
was purchased during the last few months or few weeks before
evacuation?
Mr. Latham. I would be unable to answer that accurately, but they
purchased wherever they were able to.
Mr. Costello. If they had the funds they immediately endeavored
to acquire title to the property?
Mr. Latham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. Has any of this Japanese-owned land been sold that
you know of?
Mr. Latham. I am under the nnpression that the Excelsior Ranch
Co. bought one piece.
Mr. Costello. Other than that you know of no other?
Mr. Latham. I don't laiow of any other. I know of people who
have written to them asldng if they would sell or place it on the
market but they have been unable to buy any. We have had very
poor cooperation with them as far as their farm implements go.
Mr. Costello. Did they have a large amount of farm machinery?
Mr. Latham. Yes; there was a large amount of farm implements
and they were asked to sell their lease and in most cases they even
refused to answer the correspondence and where they did they ab-
solutely refused.
I have a fairly accurate list of the machinery here. I would kind
of like to keep it due to the fact that we have a law now that we will
be able to acquire title to this farm machinery.
Mr. MuNDT. A State law?
Air. Latham. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Can you briefly tell for the record the provisions of
that law? I am not familiar with it.'
Mr. Latham. Well, the procedure is the Japanese will be contacted
and asked if he will sell at a fair price. Now, that price will be
through an appraisal board. If he doesn't answer that communica-
tion the U. S. D. A. War Board will have the authority to acquire
that machinery through legal procedure.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9007
Mr. CosTKLLO. And that wilJ be throiiirli the process of eminent
domniii in the name of the State?
Mr. Latham. Yes, and sell it. Now, the sales of that wdll be made
upon the n(>ed. In other words the farnuM- purchasino' it will have to
show need for it before he will be allowed to purchase it.
Mr. CosTELLo. The title to the farm implements would be acquired
by the State and then subsequently sold by the State to the farmers?
Mr. Latham. That is correct.
Mr. CosTf:LLO. Where is this farm machinery stored at the present
time?
Mr. Latham. In various places.
Air. CosTELLO. No one spot?
Mr. Lathaivi. On different ranches throughout the country.
Mr. MuNDT. Big machinery like trucks and tractors?
Mr. Latham. Yes; there are many heavy tractors and lots of small
truck gardening tractors.
Mr. Eberharter. Would it take much time to read that?
Mr. Costello. How long is the statement regarding the machinery?
Mr. Latham. It is quite long.
Mr. MuNDT. Just read it as far as it applies to the bigger machinery
like trucks and tractors and motor-driven machinery.
Mr. Latham. On one ranch just west of Santa Ana, about 3 miles,
one International tractor, one Oliver road tractor
Mr. MuNDT. You don't have those totaled, do you, by classifica-
tion?
Air. Latham. But this gives a complete list of all the farming
equipment.
Mr. Costello. But it has not been totaled?
Mr. Latham. No. We have here the different tractors and so
forth.
Mr. Costello. I mean do you have the total number?
Mr. Latham. No.
Mr. Muxdt. Let me ask you a question about this law. Is this a
new law?
Mr. Latham. That is a new law that was passed dm-ing the last
session of the legislature.
Mr. MuNDT. Have any of the constitutional lawyers of California
expressed some skepticism of the constitutionality of a law like that
or do they seem to be fahly well agreed it is gomg to be okay?
Mr. Latham. The attorney general
Mr. Costello. It is my miderstanding that the Governor signed
that bill.
Mr. Latham. That is correct; the Governor signed it.
Mr. Costello. And the Governor was previously the attorney
general of the State?
Mr. Latham. Yes. And the attorney general is working with the
district attorneys in the various counties so there will be a uniform
procedure throughout the State in acquiring this machineiy.
Mr. Costello. And it would be your behef the Governor would
not have signed the bill, in view of his legal background, unless he felt
reasonably sure the law would be constitutional?
Mr. Latham. That is my opinion; yes, sir.
9008 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Regarding the leases of acreage by the Japanese:
Are those long-term leases? Do they run over a period of 2 or 3 years
from the time of evacuation?
Mr. Latham. You mean the leases of the farmers that have taken
over the Japanese lands?
Mr. CosTELLO. No; the leases which the Japanese themselves held.
Mr. Latham. Most of their leases were long-time leases, but they
were quitclaimed at the time the Japanese left.
Mr. CosTELLO. The leases were actually turned over to other
persons?
Mr. Latham. Either to other persons or turned back to the owner
of the land.
Mr. CosTELLO. So that the Japs do not continue to hold leased land
and keep it out of production in any way?
Mr. Latham. No; the Japs, to the best of my knowledge, have no
leases in Orange County at the present time.
Mr. CosTELLO. And the land which they own and which they
refuse to sell, have they made leases of their lands to white farmers?
Mr. Latham. Yes; to white farmers or Mexicans. The land is
being farmed — the land that was sold to the Japanese.
Mr. CosTELLO. So that all the 10,000 acres formerly farmed by the
Japanese are still being cultivated?
Mr. Latham. Yes; all except what the United- States Government
has taken over for military purposes.
Mr. CosTELLo. If there is no objection, the statement regarding the
Japanese farmmg in Orange County will be received as an exhibit
and made a part of the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Latham Exhibit No. 1".)
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Latham, what would you say as to agri-
cultural production this year without the Japanese as compared with
what it was when the Japanese were there?
Mr. Latham. I would say in our essential crops that it will.be
greater; that is, the acreage will be gi'eater.
Mr. Eberharter. What will be the final result? Will there be
more essential crops produced without the Japanese than if they were
here?
Mr. Latham. I will answer that in this way: Some of the acreage
that was in nonessential crops is in essential crops now and I believe
it would be reasonable to assume that there will be more produced.
Mr. Eberharter. You say in many instances the Japanese farmers
did not fertilize their land in 1942. Was that unusual?
Mr. Latham. That was very miusual.
Mr. Eberharter. When does the fertilizing usually take place?
Mr. Latham. I might say in order to give you a little background
on that, they raise several crops a year. As soon as one crop is
harvested another is immediately planted, so fertilizing is a continuous
program throughout the year with each crop, but commercial fertilizers
are generally applied in the spring^ — Januaiy, February, and March.
Thev were unable to obtain credit in 1942 due to the fact that the
%j
people that controlled the credit felt that they would be evacuated.
Mr. Eberharter. In 1942?
Mr, Latham. Yes; 1942, and they were unable to obtain credit
to purchase the fertilizer.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9009
Mr. Eberhartku. That is all.
Mr. Steedmax. I have one question.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Stoodman.
Mr. SiEEDMAN. Has the farm machinery which belonged to the
Japanese Ijeen prop(>rly cared for since their evacuation?
Mr. Latham. In some cases it has been stored in good sliape. In
other cases it has just been run up in the corner and weeds are higher
than the tractors. There are many of the tractors that the motors
are frozen on.
Mr. Steedman. Has there been considerable deterioration in the
automotive equipment that was formerly used by the Japanese?
Mr. [jAtham. That is correct. There are a good many of the trucks
and cars that they own that the tires were allowed to deteriorate on.
Mr. Steedman. Some of them are setting out in the weather?
Mr. Latham. Yes. sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Do I understand that a native Californian like you is
saying it is cold enough out here to freeze the motors of a lot of
tractors during the winter time?
Mr. CosTELLO. That is entirely off the record.
Mr. ^^luNDT. That is really news.
Mr. Latham. I don't happen to be a native but I know the differ-
. ence between the two freezings.
Mr. CosTELLO. "California freezes" are veiy temporary things.
They don't last but a short time?
^I^. Latham. That is correct. They last just a few hours.
Mr. MuNDT. Very unusual.
Mr. CosTELLO. We appreciate, Mr. Latham and Mr. Elliott, your
coming up from Orange County. We appreciate it is quite a trip and
we feel your testimony will be helpful.
Mr. Elliott. And thank you for the opportunity to come up here.
Mr. CosTELLO. We will take a 5-minute recess at this time.
(Thereupon a short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order.
Will you call the next witness, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Wickersham is our next witness. He is the
chief warehouseman at Poston Center.
Mr. CosTELLo. Will you please stand and be sworn.
TESTIMONY OF ERNEST S. WICKERSHAM, CHIEF WAREHOUSE-
MAN, COLORADO RIVER WAR RELOCATION PROJECT, POSTON,
ARIZ.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your name for the record and your
occupation?
Mr. Wickersham. Ernest S. Wickersham; chief warehouseman at
Poston. Ariz.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you proceed with the uiterrogation of the
■ witiu'ss. Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. What is your present address at Poston?
Mr. Wickersham. Do you mean my personal address?
'Sir. Steedman. Yes; your personal address.
^fr. Wickersham. Parker. Ariz., box 1633.
9010 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Do you live inside the center at Poston or in the
town of Parker?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I live in Parker.
Mr. Steedman. Where do you live, Mr. Wickersham?
Mr. Wickersham. I live in what they call Silver City irrigation
headquarters at Parker.
Mr. Steedman. And you travel back and forth by automobile
every day to the center?
Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir,
Mr. Steedman. Where wiere you born, Mr. Wickersham?
Mr. Wickersham. Bowie, Ariz.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. Wickersham. I will have to do some figuring; 56 years ago.
Mr. Eberharter. What is your birthday?
Mr. Wickersham. April 15.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever served in the United States Arm^'^?
Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Ml. Wickersham. From, I thinlv it was June 6, 1916, to, I think,
back in 1919. Just about 6 days less than 3 years.
Mr. Steedman. Did you serve overseas?
Air. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Are you a member of any organizations?
Mr. Wickersham. The American Legion.
Mr. Steedman. W^ill you state briefly for the committee what your
educational training has been?
Ml . Wickersham. Most of my schooling was in Los Angeles up to
about the tenth grade.
Mr. Steedman. You attended school to the tenth grade?
Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What type of work have you been engaged in
during your life?
Mr. Wickersham. Cattle business, banking mostly, wholesale
grocery.
Mr. Steedman. Where have you lived during your life?
Mr. Wickersham. I spent most of- my life in Safford, Ariz.
Mr. Steedman. When did you take your present position at the
Poston Center?
Mr. Wickersham. April 8, a year ago.
Mr. Steedman. April 8, 1942?
Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And that was just after the project went under
the jurisdiction of the War Relocation Authorit}'^, is that correct?
Mr. Wickersham. Well, the project wasn't completed at that time.
Mr. Steedman. But it was imder the jurisdiction of the W. R. A?
Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Prior to going to Poston had you had any Govern-
ment experience?
Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Where?
Mr. Wickersham. Worked for the Soil Conservation Service at
Safford and was -ransf erred from there to the Indian Service.
Mr. Steedman. When did you first go to work for the Soil Conserva-
tion Service?
I
UN-AAIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9011
Mr. WicKERSHAM. I think it was about 8 years ajjo.
Mr. Steedman. Have you been working for the Government
continuously since that time?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What was your starting salary with the Soil Con-
servation Service?
• Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I think it was $1,800.
Mr. Steedman. What was your title at that time?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Principal clerk.
Mr. Steedman. And were you stationed at SafFord, Ariz?
Mr. W^ickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And you were later transferred to the Indian
Service?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. When were you transferred?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't remember the exact date. It was when
the reorganization took place.
Mr. Steedman. Can you give us the approximate date?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. July about — I don't remember the exact date.
It was when the relocation took place — when the Indian Service took
over so many of the Soil Conservation employees.
Mr. Steedman. WTiat type of work were you engaged in while
with the Indian Service?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Warehousing.
Mr. Steedman. And what was 3^our starting salary with the
Indian Service?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. $1,800.
Mr. Steedman. And how long were you employed by the Indian
Service?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. About 4 years, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. Did you resign from the Indian Service?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Air. Steedman. W^ere you transferred?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did vou transfer from the Indian Service over to
the W. R. A.?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. \Miat was your salary with the Indian Service at
the time you transferred to the W. R. A.?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. $1,800.
Mr. Steedman. What was your starting salary with the W. R. A.?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. $2,600.
Mr. Steedman. What is your present salary?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I iiieaii $2,900.
Mr. Steedman. Wlien you went from the Indian Service to the
W. R. A. your salary was increased from $1,800 a year to $2,900
a year?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. I only been at $1,800 for 7 months.
Prior to that it was $2,300.
Mr. Steedman. You had a reduction in salary?
Mr. W^ickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Back to $1,800?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. And then when I went — —
Mr. Steedman. Wlien you went with the W. R. A. your salary was
increased to $2,900?
9012 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Were your duties more important to the W. R. A.
than they were in the Indian Service?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. More responsibihty?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir. Only had one warehouse in the Indian
Service and I have got 90 with the W. R. A.
Mr. Steedman. What are your duties and responsibiUties at
Poston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I am receiving agent for all sup2)lies that are
shipped into the war relocation project.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have the responsibility of supervising the
Caucasian employees?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; in the warehouse department.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have the responsibility of supervising the
Japanese employees?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Wlio is your immediate superior?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Mr. Fred M. Haverland, transportation and
supply officer.
Mr. Steedman. And his immediate superior is Mr. A. W. Empie,
is that correct?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Y"es, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many Caucasian employees are working for
you?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Scveu.
Mr. Steedman. Then 8 Caucasian employees supervise, I believe
you said, 90 warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many Japanese employees are working under
you in the warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. At the present I have 42. I have had as high
as 130.
Mr. Steedman. Are you able to accomplish as much with the 42
as you were with 130?
Mr, WiCKERSHAM. Not quite.
Mr. Steedman. How does it happen that you have only 42 at the
present time?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I couldii't answer that. Just doesn't seem to
be available. I think it is due to the fact that the majority of the
workers have went to the net factories.
Mr. Steedman. Have you requested the Employment Office to
send you additional employees?
Mr. IWiCKERSHAM. Numcrous times.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had aay success?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese like to work in the warehouse?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I think they do.
Mr. Steedman. Had you had any actual experience working Japa-
nese prior to going to Poston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Had you lived in any communities where Japanese
resided?
Mr. Wt<~'kersham. I spent vacations where they resided.
UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9013
«
Mr. Steedman. Whore?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Twontv-five milVs out of Frosno at Orange
Cove.
Mr. Steedman. You had seen some Japanese prior to going to
Post on?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you speak the Japanese language?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Didn't you say you went to school in Los Angeles?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yos, sir.
Mr. MiTNDT. Until the tenth grade?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Were there Japanese in Los Angeles at that time?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Some at the Polyteclmic High School when I
went there.
Mr. MuNDT. Some of them attended the same school you attended?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had any trouble with the Japanese under
3'our supervision in the warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. 1 wouldu't call it trouble-; I would say there is
friction.
Mr. Steedman. Between you and the Japanese employees?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please explain to the committee the nature
of the friction?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, wdien I would tell them to do something
they would tell me that they didn't do that. I will give you just
exactly how it happened.
At the Parker warehouses at the railhead, we had 41 cars on the
track to unload, including steel, cement, lumber, subsistence — in fact
everything.
I had about 60 Japanese there so I told the foreman to put a crew
to unloading steel. He said: "We don't unload that damn junk."
I said: "All right, go unload lumber."
He said: "No; we unloaded lumber yesterday."
I said: "All right, go imload cement."
He said: "We don't unload cement."
Mr. MuNDT. Then what happened?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Nothing.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese return to the project following
that?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What did they do?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Just sat around and finally decided to do some-
thing that they wanted to do.
Mr. Steedman. Were they paid for the time they were sittmg
around?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I assumc they were.
Mr. Steedman. Ai'e you in charge of making up the pay rolls for
the employees at the warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. It is under my supervision; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did you approve the hourly pay for these workers
who refused to w^ork?
9014 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
' Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes. They didn't absolutely quit all day.
They sat around and talked for awhile and then picked out the job
they wanted to do and proceeded to do it.
Iff* Mr. Steedman. They wanted to select the type of work that they
did?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Is that the condition generally at Poston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, all I can speak about is my own depart-
ment.
Mr. Steedman. Is that generally true in your department?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir; that is true.
Mr. Steedman. That is the situation that exists generally in your
department?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. It is difficult to secure the cooperation of the
Japanese?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Wliy is that true?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, I couldn't tell you the reason.
Mr. Steedman. Is it due to a lack of discipline on the part of the
project administration?
fpMr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, it might be — it might be due to a mis-
understanding upon the part of the Japanese. They seem to think
all they have to handle is subsistence ; anything that is not subsistence
they think somebody else should handle.
Mr. Steedman. In other words, all they want to handle is their
own food?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Arid sanitary service, is that correct?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That is the conclusion I have arrived at.
Mr. Steedman. In connection with your supervision of the ware-
houses, have you had any personal difficulty with any of the Japanese?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Do you mean physical?
Mr. Steedman. Any physical encounters?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have the Japanese threatened you at any time?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Oh, they muttered threats and that is about all.
Mr. Steedman. What type of tlu-eats?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Oil, I have had a habit of smoking a cigar all the
time and they said they were going to ram a cigar down my thi'oat.
Mr. Steedman. What was the occasion for these threats?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. We happened to get in a load of lumber that
day and they were not stacking it the way they should and I went out
to correct them and one of them made the remark that, "That was all
damn foolishness." I told him it didn't make any difference whether
it was damn foolishness or not, that I wanted it stacked my way and
he made the remark to the other Japs that, "Some day he would ram a
cigar down my tlu-oat."
Mr. Steedman. Was that the only mstance of threats having been
made to you or about you by the Japanese?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That is the only one that I actually know
about — that I heard.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you ever had a Jap at any time lay a hand on
you physically?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9015
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Have they ever tlu-own anything at you?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sn\
Mr. MuNDT. Have you laid hand on a Japanese, physically?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Xo, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. "What happened at the railhead when they wouldn't
unload steel and wouldn't unload hunlx^r and wouldn't unload cement
and they sat down? What did you do? Did you go to them and
try individually to urge them to do the work?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I only spoke to the foreman of the crew.
Mr. MuNDT. How long did they engage in the sit-down strike?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Fi'om 20 to 30 minutes.
Mr. MuNDT. During that interval you were talking to the foreman?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; the foreman walked off and I went on
about my business.
Mr. ^iuNDT. But of their own volition they gradually started
to work?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir,
Mr. MuxDT. "What was the nature of the work they undertook
there?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. They were unloading some subsistence. I don't
recall just exactly what they unloaded.
Mr. MuNDT. And that is not an isolated case; that happened several
times in your department?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; it happened several times.
Mr. MrxDT. Have you ever tried telling those fellows, ''Either
you are gomg to unload steel or else you are going to get off the pay
roll"?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I haven't because I didn't figure that
was my part of the job. I report the happenings to my superior and
what action he took I don't laiow.
Mr. MuNDT. Did he ever tell them that?
Mi; WiCKERSHAM. Not that I know of; no, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you think it is good policy to determine what
kind of stuff thev are going to unload and what they are not gouig
to do?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No;Idonot.
Mr. MuxDT. Have you so advised your superior?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And that is as far as you can go with your authority?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That is as far as I can go.
^Ir. MrxDT. Have you advised him of this in writing?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever receive a written reply?
Mr. WicKERSHAM.'^ I dou't recall that I did.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. I believe there is a warehouse at the railliead at
Parker, is that correct?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir; we have six of theni.
Mr. vSteedman. And in those warehouses material belonging to the
center is stored?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Everj'thing.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had so much trouble with the Japanese
at the warehouse at Parker that you had to substitute Indians for the
Japanese?
9016 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Are Indians handling the material going into the
warehouses at Parker in an efficient manner?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes,' sir.
Mr. Steedman. And you are not having any trouble with the
Indians?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have any goods or materials been lost in transit
from Parker to Poston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat is yom* estimate of the amount of material
that has been lost?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. One crate of oranges but that wasn't by a
Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. How was the crate of oranges lost?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. One of the Indian drivers took that.
Mr. Steedman. Did he take it without permission?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What action was taken against him?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. He was tried before the justice of the peace and
fined $50.
Mr. Steedman. There have been no other losses of goods between
Parker and Poston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Not that I know of.
Mr. Steedman. What is stored in the warehouses at Poston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. What is stored in the warehouses at Poston?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. May I answer it this way?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
!Mr. WiCKERSHAM. You take a town of say 20,000 people and what
is required to run those 20,000 people, the small articles are stored in
the warehouses — toilet paper, subsistence, pencils, books — everything.
Mr. STEEP'^\N. Is furniture stored in the warehouses? *
Mr. WiCKK SHAM. Yes. sir.
Mr. Steedman. What type of furniture?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Japanese household furniture and also furniture
for personnel quarters and office furniture.
Mr. Steedman. Is furniture stored there for the. personnel quarters
that are being built at the present time?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; not at the present time.
Mr. SiEEDMAN. Are any refrigerators stored in the warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. We have some, yes.
Mr. Steedman. Frigidaires?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I think there are some Frigidaires — all types.
Mr. Steedman. There are all types of electric refrigerators stored
in the warehouses at Parker?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do they belong to the Japanese?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. To whom do they belong?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. In the Japanese household goods departments
there are some refrigerators.
Mr. Steedman. Has the project pm-chased any furniture for the
homes of the white personnel at the project?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9017
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Do you mean the now homes that have been
buUt? ^
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Tlicre hasn't any come fti yet.
Mr. Steedman. Has tiic project recently purchased rugs or
carpets?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sh".
Mr. Steedman. Have any shipments of furniture been received
from Barker Bros, of Los Angeles in the last 3 or 4 months?
(No answer.)
^Ir. Steedman. Barker Bros, fiuiiituro store here in Los Angeles?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't recall any.
Mr. Mundt. Would your records show all receipts into the ware-
houses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; and all issues.
Mr. Mundt. Did you receive a carload of groceries from the Heart
Mountain project?
Mr. AViCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. About when?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. About 3 weeks ago, I think it would be.
Mr. Mundt. That would be in May?
Mr. WicKERHSAM. Ycs, sn; I have the date here somewhere— 28th
of last month.
Mr. Mundt. 28th of May?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir. Do you want the car number?
Mr. Mundt. Yes.
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. P. F. E. 42844.
Mr. Mundt. I would like to go back for just a minute to the reports
you made to your superior about the sit-down strike at the rail head.
To whom were those reports made? What was the name of the
superior officer?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That was to Mr. Townsend.
Mr. Mundt. Have you ever made any similar reports to his suc-
cessor. Mr. Potter?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No; excuse me. The first one was to Mr.
Potter and the second one was to Mr. Townsend.
Mr. Mundt. Did Potter follow Townsend?
Mr. Steedman. Potter was the original chief of supply and trans-
portation and Mr. Townsend was the second and the present
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Mr. Haverland.
Mr. Mundt. Have you had occasion to make any such reports to
Mr. Haverland?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; but we don't have the Japs up at
Parker now.
Mr. Mundt. You quit using them altogether?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. How long did you work under Mr. Townsend?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Just the short time lie was there.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how long lie was there?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Townsend attempt to do anything about
disciplining the Japanese who refused to work?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. If he did I never saw any effects of it.
9018 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Did he ask you to tighten up on discipline in the
warehouses?
Mr, WiCKERSHAM. I don't recall that he did.
. Mr. Steedman. Wliat kind of system do you have for keeping
records in the warehouse?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. We have the regular Indian Service system —
store cards which is a perpetual inventory.
Mr. Steedman. Is that system satisfactory?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Are you able to keep accurate records with the
Indian Service system of accoimting for the warehouse?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs ; fau'ly so. I was taking mto 'consideration
the type — that is taking into consideration the type of employees we
have got.
Mr. Steedman. Are you referring now to the Caucasian employees
or to the Japanese employees?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No. The Japanese do all the clerical work; the
Caucasians are only supervisors.
Mr. Steedman. The implication of your reply is that you are de-
pendent upon the Japanese to keep up with the details of what is in
the warehouses, is that correct?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes; under our supervision.
Mr. Steedman. Do you feel you can trust the Japanese to maintain
the records in an honest manner?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Some of them.
Mr. Steedman. Not all of them?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Is there any record of any articles or materials or
goods, or anything of any nature whatsoever being removed from the
warehouses by the Japanese in an unauthorized manner?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Would you please state to the committee just what
was removed?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. It is impossible to do that because there are
numerous little items and the written reports have all been submitted
to the Department heads.
For instance, there will be little pieces of fly screen and push switches
outlet boxes — small things that they can use in fixing up theh* quar-
ters, and also stuff they can eat.
Mr. Steedman. Did you say things they can eat?
Mr. WiCKERSiiAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Food?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, such as pineapple juice and food that they
don't have to cook; oranges and apples and cheese.
Mr. Steedman. Have you kept records of the amount of materials,
that have been stolen from the warehouses at Poston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Only in memorandums in reporting them to the
division head.
Mr. Steedman. Then your records do not indicate the amount of
missing material from the warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. You mean in dollars and cents?
Mr. Steedman. Dollars and cents; yes.
Mr. WiCKERSMAH. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever submitted a statement to your
superiors as to the amount of material that you thought was missing?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9019
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. That you determined was missing daily from the
warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You have never made any statement that you
thought about $100 per day was missing from the warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any record of the Japanese truck
drivers attempting to steal mattresses from the Government?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I have no record of it.
Mr. Steedman. How often have you ordered an inventory of the
warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That is continuous, my system is. WTien post-
mg or deducting an article I will instruct the supervisor to take that
amount and go out and check what is in the warehouse.
Mr. Steedman. Has that always been the system employed at
Poston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And at Parker?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Since the inception of the project?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. How often do you audit that system to see whether
it is working accurately or not?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, since we began there hasn't been any
real audit of it, but that is going on all the time in all three camps.
We just pick out a card at random and have it checked and then we
will go to camp 2 and do the same thing and at camp 3, or m my
inspection I count the number of articles and go back and check the
card.
Mr. MuNDT. You have never had an over-all audit of the entire
warehouses?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; we have had a partial audit by two
investigators, going way back to the time at the beginning, and they
had all the records and all the receipts at their disposal.
Mr. MuNDT. Did they find anj^ discrepancies?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; not m our records.
Mr. MuNDT. Were those auditors of the Indian Service?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; they were auditors — they were investi-
gators.
Mr. MuNDT. From where?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I think they were from G-2.
Mr. Steedman. Did you report on the condition of the inventory
to Mr. Townsend during the time he was handling the project?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Report on an inventoiy? Why?
Mr. Steedman. Did you keep him advised as to what you had in
the warehouses while he was at the project?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No one ever submitted an inventory; he never
asked for it.
Mr. Steedman. "V\Tiat kind of reports do you su]>mit to your
immediate superior regarding the condition of the warehouses and
the amount of material and goods stored in them?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. To my immediate superior?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
9020 UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Wickers HAM. There is none except all the papers we prepare
flow to the main office. The only time we submit an inventory is
when they ask for it — a special inventory of certain items or all the
items when they ask for it.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, we introduced in the record yester-
day a memorandum dated December 16, 1942, addressed to Mr. A. W.
Empie from H. H. Townsend. I would like to quote today from that
memorandum which has already been received in the record.
Mr. CosTELLo. Very well.
Mr. Steedman. I quote:
In the first pLace an inventory cannot be accurately expected from employees
within the warehouse where we know that more than $100 a day is being mis-
appropriated.
That statement was made by Mr. Townsend in a memorandum to
Mr. Empie, dated December 16, 1942.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Townsend receive that information from
you?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how Mr. Townsend obtained that
information?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Townsend discuss that loss with you?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You never discussed the loss of Government mate-
rial from the warehouses with Mr. H. H. Townsend?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you discuss the loss of material from Govern-
ment warehouses with any other project official?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs; with Mr. Potter and Mr. Haverland and
Mr. Empie.
Mr. Steedman. But never with Mr. Townsend?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. That question was never brought up?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to quote agam from this memoran-
dum:
It is now being generally discussed among the Japanese warehouse people thai
they will be able to cover up their records and in many instances they have already
discussed the matter of hiding out various types of supplies and equipment so
that they could not be compelled to show them on their inventory.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that statement is correct?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. Steedman. It is an mcorrect statement?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Where do you think Mr. Townsend received his
information?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I dou't know, sir. I don't know where he
would — how he would arrive, the first place, at the value of the stuff
Mr. Steedman. He could arrive at an approximate value, couldn't
he?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. It would have been very difficult unless he
knew just exactly what was stolen and the cost of it.
Mr. Steedman. Is there any way you have to ascertain the amount
of material that has been improperly removed from the Goveinment
warehouses at Poston?
UN-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9021
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. By checking our perpetual inventory and taking
a phj'sical check.
Mr. Steedman. But that has not been done?
; Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Is it customary to take an inventory of Govern-
ment property once a year?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Then why hasn't that been done at Boston?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I doii't know.
Mr. Steedman. Has Mr. Head instructed you to take an inventory?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Instructions were issued when Mr. Townsend
was there. I think what prevented it was the distm'bance and that
came on shortly afterward.
Mr. Steedman. You are referring to the so-called strike or riot;
is that correct?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Distm'bance.
Mr. Steedman. That was during November of 1942?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was that a strike?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't know — I don't think — I don't know
what it was.
Mr. MuNDT. I can't hear you.
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't know^ what it was. You see here is my
position ill that, gentlemen: I spend my time between the railhead
and camps 1,2, and 3. I didn't know there was any disturbance or
strike or riot or whatever you w^ant to call it until I arrived at Boston
camp 1 about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I walked in and nothing
was doing and I asked what was the matter and they said: "WeU,
there is a strike on."
That is the first I knew of it.
Mr. STEED^L\N. Had the Japanese taken a strike vote?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I doii't know.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't any information regarding that?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you heard that the Japanese took a strike
vote?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. But you would have heard about it had they taken
one, wouldn't you?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, rumors would be all. The warehouse
department don't get that information.
Mr. Steedman. You said on the 18th of November you returned to
Boston from Barker and you went to camp No. 1 and no one was
working. Will you describe to the committee just what happened
at that time?
(No answer.)
Mr. Steedman. What was going on at camp No. 1 when you
arrived there?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Wasn't anything going on.
Mr. Steedman. Were the people congi-egated before the adminis-
tration building?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Not that I recall; I didn't stop there.
Mr. Steedman. Were any groups marcliing any place in the camp?
}vlr. WiCKERSHAM. I didn't see any.
62626— 43— vol. 15 13
9022 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Did you see any flags raised or after they had
been raised?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you hear any music being played?
Mr. Wickersham. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was everything in an orderly manner at the camp?
Mr. Wickersham. It was in the warehouse area.
Mr. Steedman. What was the situation at the administration
building?
Mr. Wickersham. Seemed to be all right. After I heard the news
I went up there and it seemed to be very quiet.
Mr. Steedman. Did that quietness prevajil during the entire 7
days of the strike or riot?
Mr. Wickersham. I don't loiow for this reason: T'VTien the strike
took place I had to spend my time at the railhead, so I spent 90
percent of my time there and then I returned to Parker or to Poston
for a short time and then go back to Parker.
Mr. Steedman. Were you inside unit No. 1 during the course of the
strike?
Mr. Wickersham. In and out of it ; yes.
Mr. Steedman. You describe the condition there as being quiet and
orderly; is that correct?
Mr. Wickersham. All I can answer for on that is, I didn't go over
to where the disturbance was; I confined my activities to the ware-
house area which is on the outside of the main camp.
Mr. Steedman. You heard a disturbance and you stayed away; is
that correct?
Mr. Wickersham. I attended to my own business.
Mr. Steedman. Didn't you feel a curiosity as to what was going
on over at unit No. 1 ?
Mr. Wickersham. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did 3^ou later hear what happened at unit No. 1 ?
Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you tell the committee what you heard?
Mr. Wickersham. I heard they were playing the Japanese national
anthem. Whether it was or not I don't know. And they said they
put up a Japanese flag but I didn't see it. I never looked for it.
Mr. Steedman. How many people told you they were playing the
Japanese national anthem?
Mr. Wickersham. I judge five or six.
Mr. Mundt. White people or Japanese people?
Mr. Wickersham. White.
Mr. Steedman. It was general knowledge at Poston that they were
playing the Japanese national anthem; isn't that correct?
Mr. Wickersham. That was the general rumor and discussion and
talk.
Mr. Mundt. How many told you they saw the Japanese flag flying?
Mr. Wickersham. I should say about two.
Mr. Mundt. Was that also the general rumor and talk?
Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you have any reason to disbelieve the informa-
tion given you to the effect that the Japanese were playing the
Japanese national anthem and flying the Japanese flag inside the
center at Poston?
SI SI .lov— St— 02020
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9023
Mr. WicKERSHAM. I doii't place much confidence in any general
conversations in such times as that.
Mr. Steedman. Arc you inclined to believe that the Japanese flag
was flying?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. I do not know, sir. I don't think so myself.
Mr. Steedman. You don't thuik so?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think they were playing tiic Japanese
national anthem?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. I don't think so.
Mr. Steedman. You don't think they were?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do 3"ou know whether or not the Japanese have
phonograph records or transcriptions of the Japanese national
anthem, the piece known as the Kimagowa, in their homes?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. I do not.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever made a search of their homes?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you at any time been instructed to search
the l)arracks of the Japanese since you went to work at Poston?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir; I am a warehouseman.
Mr. CosTELLO. If it is all right to break off here, we will take a
recess until 20 minutes after 2 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 1 p. m., the hearing recessed until 2:20 p. m. of the
same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(Whereupon the hearing was resumed at 2:20 p. m., pursuant to the
taking of the noon recess.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Steedman, will you proceetl with the interrogation of the
witness.
TESTIMONY OF ERNEST S. WICKERSHAM- Resumed
Mr. Steedman. In connection with your duties as warehouseman*
have you had any occasion to o])scrve the Japanese workers in the
warehouses harassing other Japanese workers who were attempting
to carry out their duties as prescribed by you?
Air. WicKERSHAM. Not in the warehouse.
Mr. Steedman. Have you noticed that at any other places at the
project?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You have never heard idle Japanese harassing
those Japanese who were attempting to work?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And you have never seen any Japanese try to keep
other Japanese from working.^
]Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Has such conduct been reported to you by any of
the other Caucasian eriiployees working under you in the warehouses?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In your opinion are the Japanese who are keeping
the records in the warehouses honest?
9024 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA, ACTIVITIES
Mr. WiCKEESHAM. I believe tlie present force I have— I think they
are. You see that has been shifted numerous times until we got what
we think are efficient people.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had any instances of Japanese making
incorrect records in the warehouses?
Air. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. You don't know of any such instances?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to return for a moment to the occasion
at Parker when the Japanese told you they would not work unless
they were assigned to some lighter task,
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Thc}^ didn't tell me they wouldn't work.
Air. Steedman. But they told you they wouldn't unload the steel?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And they told you they wouldn't unload lumber?
Air. "WicKERSHAM. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Well, that was a job you were engaged in at the
time, was it not?
Air. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was there any other work to be done there?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What was it?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. As I recall there were about 20 or 25 cars on the
track at the time loaded with various things.
Mr. Steedman. Did you put them to unloading that material?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. That I asked them to unload?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Air. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What did you do?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. I just walked over and they talked among
themselves and then they went to work unloading subsistence as I
recall.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that is the way to maintain discipline?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. I don't think it is; I know it isn't.
Air. Steedman. Well, what authority do you have over the Japa-
nese who are working for you?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. None whatever. The only way that I cail
punish them is to fire them.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have a record of how many you have fired?
Air. WicKERSHAM. No, sir; I have iiot.
Mr. Steedman. Would you say you have discharged 10 or 15 or 20?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Well, I have fired 20 at one time and they put
them back to work again.
Mr. Steedman. What did you discharge them for?
Mr. CosTELLO. Wlio put them back to work?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Some of the higher officials.
Mr. CosTELLO. The white officials of the camp reassigned the same
Japanese whom you had fired, to the same job again?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir; Mr. Townsend did that.
Air. Steedman. When?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. I don't recall the exact date.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall why you fired them?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What was the reason?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTWITIES 9025
Mr. "WicKERSHAM. T cauglit five of them stealing.
Mr. Steedman. What were they steahng?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Oraiigcs and groceries.
Mr. Steedman. How much did they steal?
Mr. W1CKER8HAM. They stole about 5 or 6 dozen oranges and 10
or 15 cans of groceries.
j\fr. Steedman. Did 3^ou report that back to Mr. Townsend?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
!Mr. Steedman. And you say he returned them to the job imme-
diately?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No; it was 3 or 4 days later.
Mr. Steedman. Have you in mind any other instances that you
can relate to the committee wherein Japanese have been guilty of
stealing materials out of the warehouses?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. wSteedman. That is the only instance that has come to your
attention?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. And you took summary action as soon as you
learned of the fact that they had stolen groceries?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir,
Mr. CosTELLO. Were the stolen goods returned to the warehouse?
Mr. WicKERSHAM.. Not all the oranges were returned because they
had eaten some of them.
Air. CosTELLO. Were the canned goods returned?
Air. WicKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Air. CosTELLO. That is the only instance of stealing that you know
of that took place in the warehouses over which you had charge?
Air. WicKERSHAM. At Parker; yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. Is there a conmiittee composed of Japanese working
in the warehouses which you consult with regarding the operation of
the warehouses?
Air. WicKERSHAM. I do not; no, sir.
Air. Steedman. Has there ever been such a Japanese committee?
Air. \\'ickersham. Not in the warehouses; no, sir.
"Air. Steedman. How often do the Japanese call upon you, as a
committee, regarding the operation of the warehouse?
Air. WicKERSHAM. They haven't called recently but they did before
about, I should judge, about twice a month.
Air. Steedman. What was the nature of these calls?
Air. WicKERSHAM. Oh, it seemed — they seemed to be just seeking
general information and the method of handling the materials and
supplies.
Air. Steedman. Would they request an interview prior to coming to
see you?
Air. Wickersh.\m. Yes, sir; they would come in the oflBce.
^Ir. Steedman. As a committee representing the Japanese ware-
housemen?
Air. WicKERSHAM. No, not representing the Japanese warehouse-
men— representing other departments.
Mr. AIundt. Do you have any other information as to whether
Air. Townsend returned those Japanese to your employment of his
own volition or was he asked to do that by someone liigher up?
9026 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I coiildii't say. Al] I know is he told me that
they were down on their knees begging for the job back and I told
him that I didn't want them but he returned them just the same.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't know whether that was his idea or the
idea of somebody higher up?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say there were 20 men involved in that case?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say they only stole a couple dozen oranges and
about 10 or 15 cans of food?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. How were the 20 involved in that stealing?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. There was only five of them that did the
actual stealing.
Mr. CosTELLO. How were the other 15 implicated in the stealing?
Mr, WiCKERSHAM. They woiddn't work.
Mr. CosTELLO. W^ouldn't work because the other five were being
discharged?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I dou't know, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. The other 15 just refused to work?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. And they were not involved in the stealing?
Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. But they didn't give you any reason as to why they
didn't want to work?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; they never do.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did they sit down at the time of the stealing or
was it after the 5 had been discharged or were all 20 discharged at
once?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. After the five were taken to the Japanese
police court.
Mr. CosTELLO. Then the other 15 refused to work?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Were they the only Japanese that you ever fired
from the job?
Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. Just those 20?
Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you fire any more after that?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Fire any more?
Air. MuNDT. After they were returned to you?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I w^ould have fired some before that.
Mr. AluNDT. W^as that the first offense you had detected?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. That was the only one I ever actually caught
myself.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you have any reports from others as to
stealing? »
Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you take action in those cases?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No; I didn't because I didn't have, as you might
say, the goods on them.
Mr. CosTELLO. How many other reports did you have regarding
stealing?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I would judge about four or five.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9027
Mr. CosTELLO. Were there large amounts of foodstuff involved in
those stealings?
Mr. WicKERSHAM. No, sir; small, petty amounts.
Mr. MuNDT. You have had other Japanese refuse to work besides
those 20, have j'ou not?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir; I have had them refuse to work
twice — ^two different gangs.
Mr. MuNDT. Just that gang and the one at Parker?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. AVell, both of these were at Parker. I never
had any refuse to work down in camp.
Mr. MuNDT. How far apart were those two instances — the one of
the fruit stealing and the one that wouldn't move the cement and
lumber?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I judgc about a month or 6 weeks apart.
.Mr. CosTELLO. Who actually unloaded the steel and lumber?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Oil Sundays they would call in all the Cauca-
sians and the Indians and all the machines that were available and
we would work as high as 38 men and 3 machines and uidoad the
stuff.
Mr. CosTELLO. But none of the Japanese participated in that
unloading?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact weren't these 20 who were
involved in the episode you have just related, good workers?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. They were when they first started.
Mr. Steedman. Were they good workers at the time of this occur-
rence?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; they had slacked off for some reason.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I have a memorandum dated
September 18, 1942, addressed to Mr. A. W. Empie:
"Subject: Warehouse unloading situation at Parker," signed by
Mr. H. H. TowTisend, transportation and supply officer. This
memorandum was furnished to me by Mr. Townsend and I would
like to read it into the record at this point.
Mr. CosTELLO. You might read the memorandum.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
Unless there is some reason it should not be done, I am attempting to reorganize
and install the old crew that was dismissed a few weeks ago due to a similar
condition that exists at this time.
Do you recall this memorandum?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what Mr. Townsend was referring to
when he refers to "a similar condition?" Did you have another
incident like the first one you have mentioned to the committee?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Does he mean he is referring to the first strike
or sit-down?
Mr. Steedman. This is dated September 18 — before the strike.
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. You see there were two strikes at the Parker
warehouse before the big disturbance.
Mr. Steedman. What were the dates of those strikes?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I dou't recall — about a month or 6 weeks apart.
Mr. Steedman. Prior to November 18, 1942?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. "What were the causes of the two strikes you have
just mentioned?
9028 UISr-AlMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I do not know,
_ Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese who struck under your jiu-is-
diction?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you attempt to ascertain the cause of the
strikes?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, for instance, they would get in their
trucks at 9:30 and they — they had arrived at 9 — one crew would get
in the truck and 20 or 30 men drive away. Nothing was said about
what was the matter.
The next day they come back and they were asked, "What did you
go home for yesterday?"
"Only had eggs for breakfast."
"What else was on the table?"
"Well, that — there was a lot of cereal but we don't eat that junk."
Mr. Steedman. And they just drove off the job?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did you report that to the management?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs.
Mr. Steedman. And what action did the camp officials take?
. Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't know, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you speak more loudly?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I do not know what they did.
Mr. Steedman. Did you receive a memorandum in reply to your
memorandum advising them of the situation at the warehouse at
Parker?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Mr. Steedman. You are referring now to the first strike when you
say they drove up in their trucks and said they had only had eggs
for breakfast?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, no; that was the second strike.
Mr. Steedman. Will you tell the committee what happened
during the first strike?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. We had the men working and I had them split
into two crews and I noticed one crew was working very nicely and
the other crew was all setting down, so I walked down to the crew
that was setting down and I said, "What is the matter?"
Nobody answered. I said, "What in hell is the matter with you?"
They said, "We don't know what we are going to get paid."
So i said, "What has that got to do with working?"
And they said, "We don't want to work until we find out the pay."
So, I proceeded to the office and rang up the main office and they
said, "Bring them in."
So, I proceeded to bring them in and they talked to them and sent
them back.
Mr. Steedman. And was that Mr. Head?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. At this particular time it was Mr. Evans.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Evans?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Evans give the Japanese any satisfaction?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. He went into some detail to explain to them at
that particular time it wasn't decided whether it would be $16 or $19
a month.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9029
Mr. Steedman. What was the center paying the workers who were
doino; the work that you are referring to now?
Air. AVicKERSHAM. They were supposed to be getting $16.
j\Ir. Steedman. Did Mr. Evans raise their pay to $19 a month?
!Mr. Wickersham. Not at that time; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did he later?
Mr. ^\iCKERSHAM. No; it hasn't been raised until just recently.
^Er. Steedman. It is $19 now?
'Mr. Wickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I will continue with the reading of the memorandum:
In checking their records I find that they handled more than 3,000,000 pounds
of freight during August under adverse conditions.
jSIr. Steedman. Does that refer to the crew that you discharged
because tlie}^ were stealing Government property?
Mr. Wickersham. I would judge that is the crew that set down
and was wanting to know what they were going to be paid and also
the five members that were caught stealing.
Mr. Steedman. That refers to both crews?
Mr. Wickersham. No; that was the one crew.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
This crew feels that they have been given a bad break and are now willing to
take over the job and promise to do a better job of work than they did before.
I am convinced that in this instance the Japanese l)oys are not entirely at fault.
The Caucasian management is responsible for the existing conditions.
Mr. Steedman. What does he mean by that?
Mr. W^iCKERSHAM. I do not know, sir.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
It is my intention to work the crew that is now on from 7 to 3 p. m. and the
second from 2 to 10 p. m. This will allow the men travel time between their camp
and the warehouse. This has been one of the conditions that they have found
fault with. They were asked to travel on their own time making their working
hours 10 hours instead of 8. We have at this time 30 carloads of freight to be
unloaded and I am sure that this emergency can be handled properh' from now on.
That is signed "H. H. Townsend."
Mr. Steedman. This is the order directing the men to be put back
to work, is it not?
Mr. W'ickersham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did any of the Caucasian employees at Poston
sympathize with those Japanese? *
Mr. W^ickersham. You mean in the warehouse department?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. W^ickersham. I don't think so, and I don't think they con-
demn them.
Mr. Steedman. "What was the attitude of other employees, em-
ployees outside of the warehouse?
Mr. Wickersham. I couldn't say about those. I am not in close
touch with them.
Mr. Steedman. Have you experienced any interference in j^our
work from the community welfare service department?
Mr. Wickersham. Not directly.
Mr. Steedman. I did not hear your answer.
Mr. Wickersham. I said not directly.
Mr, Steedman. Have you indirectly?
9030 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In what way?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, take for instance they say: "Well, now
if these people want to work 2 hours and go home it is all right."
So they work 2 hours and go home.
Mr. Steedman. Do you give them credit on their time cards for
an 8-hour day if they work only 2 hours and go home?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I try to see that their time is cut down to 2 hours
or the time they actually worked, but our timekeepers are Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. The timekeepers who compile the records for these
employees in the warehouse are Japanese also?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you instruct the timekeepers to cut down the
number of hours to the actual number of hours that they work? ,
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do they comply with your instructions?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ill some cases — where I have checked them,
Mr. Steedman. What about the situation in cases where you
haven't checked them?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, I don't kno-s^ — I haven't checked them.
Mr. Steedman. Don't you check the records each time you tell a
timekeeper a certain man has worked only 2 hours? '
(No answer.)
Mr. Steedman. Don't you ascertain whether or not the timekeeper
has complied with your instructions?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. If I tell him that, yes; I check on that. I don't
check him every day.
Mr. Steedman. Do you trust the Japanese timekeepers?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Somewliat.
Mr. Steedman. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Eberharter. Just one question.
Mr. CosTELLo. Mr. Eberharter.
Mr. Eberharter. As I get it, Mr. Wickersham, the reason you
took no disciplinary action at the time these Japanese refused to
unload this steel and Imnber and cement, was because when you had
disciplined them before by dismissing them from the pay roll, they
had been put back and you felt it v/ouldn't be of any use to dismiss
these men for refusing to unload this cement and steel and lumber?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. What is the history of the 20 men who were put back
to work by the memorandum read by Mr. Steedman a few moments
ago? Are they still working in your warehouse?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Did you fire them again?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, they put in their time riding back and
forth and loafing around the warehouse and then the disturbance came
along and they never did put Japs back at the Parker warehouse.
Mr. Mundt. They never went back to work?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No; they never did go back to work.
Mr. Mundt. You said, with regard to the social welfare workers,
that they said if they want to work 2 hom-s, let them work 2 hom-s and
call it enough. Whom do you mean by "they"?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9031
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Tlic Japanese people.
Mr. MuNDT. You said: "They said it," referring to some social
welfare workers. Whom did you mean by "they"? Yon said they
iiitorrei'etl indirectly at times with the Japanese working there.
Mr. WicKERSHAM. Ycs.
Mr. MuNDT. Whom did you mean by "they?"
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. The social workers.
Mr. CosTELLO. We can't hear you. Will you please speak louder?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. The social workers, as we classify them.
Mr. CosTELLO. Who are the social workers? What are the names
of those people?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. At that particular time I think it was Miss
Findley who was the head of it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Anyone else?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I do not know who the rest of them were.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Dr. Powell a social worker there?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. He is now. I don't know whether he was there
at that time or not.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you ever go to Mr. Head and suggest to him that
you be given more authority to exercise disciplinary action against
these striking Japanese?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir; I have had several conferences with
him.
Mr. MuNDT. What was the outcome of those conferences?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Nothing that I could see.
Mr. MuNDT. What would he saj^ about it? How did he think the
Japs should be treated? Did he think they should be entitled to
strike like that?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. Well, he didn't express himself on that par-
ticular point.
^Tr. ^luNDT. You went to him and you said substantially: "Mr.
Head, this is what has happened and I think I should be given
more authority so we can get more work out of the Japanese," didn't
you?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir; I didn't say it in that way. I went to
him and explained the difficulties I had doing the work — difficulty
in unloading the amount of cars I had — ^thc tonnage that I had to
move. 1 put the facts before him and let him use his own judgment
as to what means he was going to use.
!Mr. CosTELLO. Did you make any recommendations as to im-
proving conditions or increased authority for yourself?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You made no recommendations at all?
!Mr. WiCKERSHAM. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Simply set before him the facts?
Air. WiCKERSHAM. Ycs, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. What did he state to you? Did he make any
offer to improve the conditions or improve the situation?
Air. WiCKERSHAM. I rccall each one would end up: "Well, we will
see what can be done."
Mr. CosTELLO. You were satisfied with that and didn't press him
any further?
Mr. WiCKERSHAM. I had to be.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was anything actually done then?
9032
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, WiCKERSHAM. I coiildii't see any results.
Mr. CosTELLO. As far as you know Mr. Head took no action
whatsoever in spite of the fact that he was notified by you as to the
conditions existing there at Parker?
Mr, WiCKERSHAM. As far as my knowledge goes I would say yes,
Mr, CosTELLO, That will be all, Mr, Wickersham, We appreciate
your coming here,
(Witness excused,)
Mr, Steedman, Mr, Chairman, when Mr. Wickersham left the
stand he handed me a memorandum entitled "Warehouse, July 1,
1942, to May 31, 1943, tonnage unloaded at Parker," and he asked
that this memorandum be inserted in the record at the conclusion of
his testimony,
Mr, CosTELLO. That shows the tonnage handled through the ware-
house at Parker between those dates?
Mr. vSteedman. That is coiTect.
Mr, CosTELLO, Without objection, the memorandum will be sub-
mitted for the record,
(The memorandum referred to is as follows:)
Lumber
Dry subsistence
Produce
Meat and eggs
Machinerj^ (tanks, trucks, etc.) .
Cement, sand, rock
Japanese household goods
Pipe, steel, tools, etc
Miscellaneous
Tons
6,806
358
616
655
606
703
574
161
954
4,
3,
Total (48,909,646
pounds) 124,460
Tons
1,757
Other bv truck:
Milk
Stove oil (gallons
1,873,755) 6,558
Bread ^. 634
Miscellaneous (food and
all other type) 8, 000
Total (82,808,398
pounds) 1 41, 404
Monthly tonnage, Parker 2, 446
Total monthly tonnage, Parker, 4, 140
• Approximate.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you call your next witness, Mr, Steedman?
Mr, Steedman. Our next witness is Mr, Odemar.
TESTIMONY OF WALTER H. ODEMAR, GRAND TRUSTEE, NATIVE
SONS OF THE GOLDEN WEST
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman,)
Mr, CosTELLO, Mr. Odemar, will you give the reporter your name
and address?
Mr. Odemar, Walter H, Odemar, My offices are 820 Rowan
Building in the city of Los Angeles,
Mr, Chairman, and members of the committee, and Mr, Steedman,
I am grand trustee of the Native Sons of the Golden West, In
behalf of the Native Sons of the Golden West and of the board of
grand officers, as well as individually as a citizen, I wish to state that
it is the opinion of the group whom I represent that they are unequivo-
cally opposed to the return of the Japanese to the areas from which they
were taken and placed in the relocation centers — more particularly, of
course, to California,
We are in favor and have made many appropriate resolutions which
have been sent to the various members of the various delegations in
the House of Representatives from California,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9033
We favor the placing of the relocation centers in the hands of the
United States Army.
In taking that position and being opposed to the return of the
Japanese to the areas from which they were taken, we are being con-
sistent with the policy of our organization for all of this century.
If I may I will illustrate that consistency by w^orking backward
from the present date.
At the last two sessions of the California Legislature, prior to the
session that has just adjourned, among other things we were desirous
of having passed in California for the protection of our coast, the so-
called alien fishing bills.
By appropriate resolutions we asked the California Legislature to
pass those bills, bills which would make it mandatory that fishing
boats leaving the harbors in California, be wholly manned as well as
wholly owned by American citizens.
We had representatives appear before the committees hearing those
bills. We were very greatly disappointed when at each of those two
sessions the bill was not passed out of the committee but withheld in.
committee and allowed to die there.
In 1942, along with the American Legion in California, the State
Grange of California and the A. F. of L. of California, we appeared
before the Senate immigration committee through an organization
they helped create and of which w^e were a member with those other
three organizations, known as the California Joint Immigration Com-
mittee, with offices in San Francisco.
Three of the members of that committee appeared before the
senate committee. Two of those members were illustrious members
of our organization — ex-Senator James Phelan and Valentine S.
McClatchey — and I would like to refer the members of this committee
to the report of the hearmgs before the Committee on ImmigTation
in the United States Senate, of the Sixty-eighth Congress, first session
on Senate bill 2756, and particularly the testimony of those gentlemen,
the two whom I have mentioned, together with U. S. Webb until
recently the attorney general of the State of California, on the dates
of Alarch 11, 12, 13, and 15, 1924.
Mr. Eberharter. What is the date?
Mr. Odemar. 1924.
Mr. Eberharter. What session of Congress was that?
Mr. Odemar. Sixty-eighth. That was wdien the committee was
considering the five bills before the Senate on immigration and finally
passed the oriental exclusion provisions of the Immigration Act.
If the committee would have the time I would like to refer that
report to the committee for it contains by the three gentlemen I have
mentioned, testimony which is equally true today for the problem
before this committee.
The statements made there, some of which were prognostication?,
are actually the facts today.
Before that we were instrumental and pride ourselves in the work
which our members at that time, in 1920, performed in having the
mitiative proposition No. 1, hi 1920, in California, the alien land law
put over by an overwhelming majority — six-hundred-odd thousand
to 24,000, which was an amendment attempting to put teeth in the
California alien land law, for the alien land law of 1913, which had
9034 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
been passed by the legislature of that year, and was found to be
wanting in its provisions.
We were very instrumental in having that first alien land bill in
1913 passed.
In 1910 when there were a number of bills before the State legisla-
ture at Sacramento on broad Japanese questions, many members of
our order were members of that legislature and we, of course, bowed
to the request of President Theodore Roosevelt and none of those
acts were passed by the legislature at that time; and I am speaking
of the State legislature now.
In 1908 and 1909 we were attempting to tell the people on the Pacific
coast of the problem that would some day arise but yielded again to
the request from the State Department in Washington to go easy on
the question.
So you can see we are not ''Johnnie come late" with our facts,
but relate back to the time when the Japanese were not nearly as
numerous and the problem could have been prevented had a com-
mittee such as this made a study of the problem.
If I may, and I laiow this committee does not have the problem
before it, state that we are also unequivocally opposed to the amend-
ment of any immigration law or naturalization law, such as is before
the House and which I have read lately was tabled in committee by
a vote of 9 to 8, just 2 or 3 days ago.
We sincerely hope that the Members of the House of Representatives
here today if they ever have an opportunity — if the opportunity
comes to them to vote on those bills, that the immigration laws and
the naturalization laws be not amended at least during the duration
and until a time when the problem can be seen more broadly than it
can at present.
Mr. CosTELLO. Does that complete your statement?
Mr. Odemar. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You felt the passage of the fishing acts, to which
you have had reference, would have been beneficial in handling the
Japanese situation, particularly in our harbors?
Mr. Odemar. We did definitely and in that regard we assisted in
having available the head of the Navy Intelligence of this district
appear before the committee and give his views thereon.
Mr. CosTELLO. Because of evidence that had been uncovered re-
garding the activities and the knowledge of the Japanese fishermen of
our harbors, he felt it was necessary that a restraint be placed upon
them?
Mr. Odemar. That is true, together with the construction of their
boats and the size of them.
Mr. CosTELLO. The indication was that the fishing boats might have
been used for military purposes and that the Japanese engaged in
, fishing were actually engaged in subversive activities?
Mr. Odemar. That is light.
Mr. CosTELLO. I think that is all.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask one question for the sake of the
record.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. How many members are there in the organiziation
yoii represent here today?
Mr, Odemar. Approximately 20,000 from San Diego to Eureka.
UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9035
Mr. Steedman. When was the organization founded or first estab-
lished?
Mr. Odemar. On the Uth of Jul}^ 1875.
Mr. Steedman. That is all.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you call your next witness, Mr. Steedman?
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Meyer.
TESTIMONY OF ELDRED L. MEYER, PAST GRAND PRESIDENT,
NATIVE SONS OF THE GOLDEN WEST
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Ivlr. CosTELLO. Will you please state your name for the record?
Mr. Meyer. Eldred L. Meyer, I am a past grand president of the
Native Sons of the Golden West and I am an inheritance-tax ap-
praiser.
Mr. Chairman, and Congressmen, my remarks will be quite brief
but I would like to read, with your permission, two paragraphs or so
from the story of Japanese immigration, which was compiled by the
California Joint Immigration Committee, and published on No-
vember 15, 1938;
Mr. Eberharter. That is a report of what committee?
Mr. Meyer. California Joint Immigration Committee studying the
oriental question.
Mr. CosTELLO. Composed of private citizens?
Mr. Meyer. Composed of the four groups that Mr. Odemar referred
to, the American Legion, the American Federation of Labor, the
Grange, and the Native Sons of the Golden West.
Mr. Eberharter. I simply wanted that clarified in the record.
Mr. Meyer. And I will say in advance why I would like to read
these two paragraphs; by reason of the fact that since Pearl Harbor
you know our stand and on the opposite side of the picture there is
another group and that is the puipose of wanting to bring this to the
attention of this committee.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may read the two paragraphs.
Mr. Meyer (reading):
In California the Japanese established a state withing a state. Every Japanese
whether alien or American citizen was forced to register in a minor association
subject to control of the Japanese Association of America, which in turn acted
under the direction of the consul general of Japan, and to obey the orders of Japan.
And the footnote there is No. 12, referring to the Japan secret
policy. Senate Document No. 55, 1921, page G3:
In 1915 the Federal Council of Churches of Christ in America, hoping thereby
to win Japan to Christianity, promised to obtain immigration and naturalization
privileges for her nationa.s in the United States.
A campaign was organized by the consul for this purpose and in 1919 two bills
therefor were actively advocated in congressional committee hearings —
The footnote there is 13 —
quota or exclusion for Japanese immigrants, cited page 31.3, House Immigration
Committee, 1919; House Immigration hearing, 1919, 1920, and 1922: Senate
Committee hearing, March 24.
And then it refers to the Japanese conquest of American opinion
by Flowers.
9036 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The other paragraph that I referred to above is as follows:
The enactment of the exclusion measure was not the unexpected and unobserved
blow to Japanese pride she claims. It was the results of 24 years of evasion by
her of her agreement to keep Japanese laborers out of the United States.
In the final hearing before the Senate Immigration Committee in March 1924,
the Japanese cause was presented by the Federal Council of Churches of Christ
in America, under the direction of Dr. Sidney L. Gullick, born in the Orient, a
missionary professor in a Japanese university on leave to propagandize Japan's
'cause in this country.
And there is a footnote here numbered 15:
Japanese conquest of American opinion, by Flowers, pages 78 to 88.
California's case for exclusion was presented for the California Joint Immigra-
tion Committee under the authority of its then four constituting bodies: American
Legion, American Federation of Labor, the Grange, and the Native Sons of the
Golden West, by Hon. U. S. Webb, State attorney general of California; Hon.
James D. Phelan, former United States Senator from California; and V. K.
McClatchey.
I believe those paragraphs more or less speak for themselves and as
I originally stated, it is the purpose of bringing this before the com-
mittee if they desire to, during the investigation or any further
investigation, to see if such be the case now that a pressure group by
these churches and other churches are not still active in the cause of
Japan regardless of the fact that we are in a war against Japan.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have any information indicating as to
whether there are any pressure groups of any kind operating here in
California, urgmg the release of the Japanese to the Pacific coast?
Mr. Meyer. Well, not that I could point my finger to outside of
the fact that these various debates or forums where we take our posi-
tion against the Japanese. The majority of the times those that are
in favor of the Japanese are members of church groups and such was
the case last Sunday night when there was a forum over radio station
KFC, at wiiich time Mr. Odemar and Mr. Shoemaker, of the American
Legion, stated our case regarding the Japanese situation and the oppo-
site side, as I stated, was taken by Dr. Fisher and Dr. Hunter of the
church groups.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are both of those ministers in church organizations?
Mr. Meyer. Of this city and county; yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are those forums held frequently or are they just
an occasional program?
Mr. Meyer. Well, I would say the answer would be occasional,
Mr. Costello. It is not a consistent program of trying to create
radio forums every week?
Mr. Meyer. No; I couldn't say that that is true.
Mr. Costello. You don't know whether the Federal Council of
Churches of Christ, for example, are at the present time taking any
action in the matter of the release of the Japanese evacuees from the
camps?
Mr. Meyer. Well, I believe 'Mr. Odemar could answer that better
than I, Mr. Costello.
Mr. Costello. Do you have any information regarding that
matter, Mr. Odemar?
Mr. Odemar. I do not. I have no information as to whether the
Federal Churches of Christ in ximerica have definitely gone on record
to do it, but many of their officers and members are advocating that.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9037
And if I may make one fiirtlior correction — Dr. Fisher on the radio
^with us last Sunday nig-ht is not a minister of the gospel. He is a
'professor of Biblical history at the U. S. C.
I think Mr. IMeyer inadvertently stated he was a minister.
l\ir. AIeyer. I stand corrected.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether any of the pastors of the
Churches of Christ in California have openly advocated the release
of Japanese to the coast?
l\ir. Odemar. Dr. Allen Hunter, who is pastor of the Congregational
Church of West Hollywood, was the gentleman — was one of the
gentlemen on the opposite side last Sunday night over the radio and
he mentioned and he definitely advocates the return of the Japanese
to the Pacific coast.
Some month or two ago Mr. Clyde Shoemaker and myself had a
forum before a group of high-school and junior-college students in
West Los Angeles, at which time the opposite position — and it was
definitely on this question, whereas last Sunday was the question:
Shall the American-born Japanese be denied citizenship?
That was last Sunday's subject. But 2 months ago, approximately,
our question then was the return of the Japs from relocation centers
and Air. Hugh McBeth, an officer of the American Colored Group or-
ganization of some type, which I understand is national in its scope -
Mr. CosTELLO. Is that the National Association for the Protection
of Colored People?
Mr. Meyer. 1 believe that is the name, thank you. If it isn't the
name it is a name quite similar to that.
He is a Los Angeles attorney and was with a man representing the
Reconciliation Fellowship and they actually debated in favor of the
return of the Japanese.
If the committee wishes the exact names, I have them in my office.
I haven't them with me.
Mr. CosTELLO. You don't know whether the organizations to which
these people beloiig have urged that by resolution?
Mr. Odemar. I have no such information.
Mr. CosTELLO. But individuals belonging to the various groups
have taken an individual stand on the matter?
Mr. Meyer. That was my statement.
Mr. Costello. But you feel the majorit}^ of the people of California
do not follow that stand and are opposed to the return of the Japanese
to the Pacific coast until after the period of the war?
Mr. Odemar. I am happy you asked that question because it is
my observation that usually after an appearance on the radio, and
I have been to a number of radio stations and a number of service
clubs wherein I have been advocating against the return of the
Japanese from relocation centers, and the enthusiasm has been
spontaneous. They have thanked me very profusely for it and have
stated: "Why don't we go further? We are not going far enough in
our opposition to the Japanese."
And my observation is that 7 out of 10, at least with those people
with whom I have talked, are of that opinion and they do call me up
and present their opinions.
Mr. Costello. You have had occasion to travel up and down the
State quite a bit and you have found a similar situation in other sec-
tions of the State?
62626— 43— VOL 15 14
9038 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Odemar. Yes, sir. I do know — and I am going to San Fran-
cisco again tomorrow — I have traveled up and down throiighont the
State of CaUfornia, having made seven trips to San Francisco and the
bay region last year, and it has been my observation that that opinion
is the same there ixs it is here.
Mr. CosTELLO. Does the committee have any questions?
Mr. Eberharter. No questions.
Mr. Odemar. And that goes for San Diego and Orange County,
also. Orange County, I feel, is 9 out of 10 for the exclusion of the
Japanese. I feel 9 out of 10 are of that opinion.
If I may make one brief statement: I do not believe that I have re-
ceived any opposition in my conversations with persons when I have
explained to them the situation of the so-called Kibei Shiman, and
that is one of the major grounds — just one of the major grounds on
which we base our contention.
Now, I am quite sure the committee, is familiar with the Kibei
Shiman, and when that is explained to the public, a number of whom
are not familiar with it, they say:
Well, then, how can we expect them to be true to the United States even though
they are born here, and while under the decisions of the court they are technically
citizens of the United States, when they are taught the things that they are taught
in Japan during that formative period of their lives, how can they be good
Americans.
Mr. Costello. Mr. Steedman?
Mr. Steedman. No questions.
Mr. Meyer. May I add just one line to your question regarding the
feelings of the people of the State of California on the return from re-
location centers to California and the Pacific coast — -to your question
that you put to Mr. Odemar?
It is my understanding that each of the county boards of supervisors
of the 58 counties have gone on record opposing, by resolution, oppos-
ing their return to California.
Mr. Costello. I think they have so indicated to the committee, by
sending us telegrams during the last 2 or 3 days.
The committee thanks you gentlemen very much for appearing here
today.
Mr. Odemar. And we thank you for the opportunity.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Costello. Call yoiu" next witness.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Beery.
TESTIMONY OF BEN S. BEERY, ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES, CALIF.,
REPRESENTING LOS ANGELES COUNTY COUNCIL OF THE
AMERICAN LEGION
(The witness was duly sworn by the Chairman.)
Mr. Costello. Will you kindly state your full name and occupation
to the reporter?
Mr. Beery. Ben S. Beery. I am an attorney at 912 Rown Building,
Los Angeles.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I asked Mr. Beery to come here
today as a representative of the American Legion and he is gomg to
make a statement on behalf of that organization.
Mr. Costello. We are very happy to have you appear before the
committee, Mr. Beery.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9039
Mr. Beery. Thank you. I am appearing on behalf of the Los
Angeles County Council of the American Legion, which consists of
something over 26,000 members.
I am also appearing on behalf of the war advisory council of the Los
Angeles County Comicil.
I'lie Los Angeles County Council of the American Legion is abso-
lutely opposed to the return of the Japanese to the Pacific coast area
during the period of the war. And 1 am likewise, the same as Mr.
Odemar, advocating the control of the Japanese by the Army.
We do so and we take that position for two very distinct reasons:
In the first place, it is the opinion of the American Legion, and I am
satisfied a well-founded opinion from experience, that some of the
Japanese are absolutely disloyal.
Because of the peculiar Japanese psychology it is exceedingly diffi-
cult, if not impossible, to determine. You caimot tell whether they
are loyal or disloj^al.
If they return to tliis area it will simply mean an invitation to trouble.
This is an active combat zone, and it is a terrifically large zone. The
return of a large number of Japanese to this area would make the job
of surveillance of these Japanese practically a physical impossibility.
I think it is a well known fact that the Army and the Navy and
the F. B. I. have their hands full at the present time and it would
smiply be adding to their burdens to carry on a surveillance of all
the Japanese that might be returned to this area.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would that apply to Japanese soldiers who are
serving in the American Army as well as civilians?
Mr. Beery. In our opinion it would and the reason we have that
opmion is this:
We have considered with some seriousness, the possibility of landing
of Japanese on the Pacific shores from submarines. We know that
Germans have been able to land saboteurs on the east coast from
submarines, and it is not beyond the realm of possibility that they
could land Japanese on the west coast.
With that in view if there were any Japanese here it would be a
simple matter for the Japanese to land from their own submarines in
United States Army uniforms, and I am satisfied that from their
espionage work they know what our uniforms are like. It would be
no difficulty at all. We feel it would be a simple matter — a simpler
matter to keep them all out rather than to complicate the issues.
Mr. CosTELLO. If we release Japanese from the relocation camps
it would probably relieve the Japanese military from the necessity
of sending the Japs over in submarines?
Mr. Beery, if we do release them we will not only be diminishing
the need of their sending saboteurs over, but we will have them on our
own shores and behind the backs of our Army which is charged with
the defense of this shore. The country would be full of potential
saboteurs and spies.
The people of the Pacific coast as well as the people of the United
States have placed wholeheartedly the responsibility of the defense
of these shores in the military authorities. They feel that it would
be a terrific responsibility on the part of any command to have to
defend these shores and also protect those shores from an enemy at
its back.
9040 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
In addition to that the hazards would become greater at a time of
crisis if you assume that the Japanese do what we know they would
like to do, namely, attack the Pacific coast.
That would be a terrific time of crisis when all the military and
naval forces should be directed toward the defense of our country
and at the same time that their energies should be directed toward
our shores the activity of potential saboteurs and spies would be
increased.
We feel that the return of the Japanese would be a terrific hazard
from that standpoint.
There is another separate and entirely distinct reason why we
oppose the return of the Japanese.
The treachery of the attack on America at Pearl Harbor certainly
aroused the righteous indignation of all people. That indignation
has been intensified by the subsequent conduct of the Japanese
military.
The stories of sailors and soldiers and marines coming back from
Guadalcanal and other places hasn't done anything to increase the
affection of the American people toward the Japanese.
The execution of our aviators over Tokyo, and I know this from
conversations that I have had, excited a terrific resentment in Cali-
fornia and I am afraid if the Japanese were returned to this coast,
it would be simply an invitation to unrest and violence.
Now, I want the record to be clear that the American Legion
opposes any kind of violence but it is a serious hazard.
I have heard law enforcement officers talk. As a matter of fact I
had luncheon at the Clark Hotel where I heard law enforcement
officers from southern California talk, and one after another of them
commented upon their serious concern over what might happen if the
Japanese are brought back to this area.
I have heard comments from many other sources. People are
enraged and it would be an invitation to violence.
Now, we all abhor mob violence and it might have very serious
results if that should happen. In the first place it would simply be
an invitation to the German propaganda machine to carry on propa-
ganda on the theory, as they have always carried on, on the theory
that this country is disunited; that there are minority groups in this
country ; that the American people are opposing the minority groups,
and that is the very tact that the German propagandists would take.
They would circulate that not only among their own people
but it would very shortly reach China and they would endeavor to
persuade the Chinese that our affection and regard for the excellent
stand they have taken against the Japanese, is a mere sham. They
would try to make the Japanese believe that our whole feeling of
hatred was toward everybody that might have slant eyes and that
isn't true.
But it would be a weapon in their hands.
Adolf Hitler has said:
Dissension, confusion, and panic are my weapons.
And, gentlemen, I am satisfied that the return of the Japanese
would create the very thing that he desires.
The people of California would not have their minds 100 percent
on winning the war but would have their minds on possible trouble
with the Japanese locally.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9041
The next thing that that would result in, and I think it is a n;ost
serious thing, is, it would result, and it would be an excuse for re-
prisals on the part of the Japanese. Just imagine some little riot,
it wouldn't have to amount to much — some little riot develop in
which some ini thinking person would attack a Japanese and a Japa-
nese would attack in turn an American. We have our zoot suit
difficulties today. A Japanese would attack an American then the
next thing that you would hear would be that the Japanese were go-
ing to use that as an excuse for reprisals, and if the public press is
correct, and I believe it is, the Japanese have more of our nationals
in their possession that we have of theirs.
I am satisfied that the opinion is practically unanimous. I have
never talked to a member of the county council that is in favor of the
return of the Japanese. They are wholeheartedly opposed to it.
I think that then feeling might very well be summed up in a story
from Tony Slocum, who is of Japanese ancestory, and who is a mem-
ber of the American Legion and a veteran of the last war. At the
time of the evacuation I met him on the street and he said they were
being evacuated, and he said:
As far as the loyal Japanese were concerned, that if thc}^ could serve America
by being evacuated that that was the place they wanted to serve.
And, gentlemen, I can tell you as to the disloyal Japanese we of
the American Legion have no consideration for them whatsoever.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe, Mr. Beery, that the return of the
servicemen from the Pacific fighting theaters has tended to intensify
public sentiment against the Japanese on the west coast?
Mr. Beery. I am satisfied it has. They come back and tell of the
horrors they have seen and the atrocities that were being perpetrated
by the Japanese and the American people are righteously indignant.
Mr. CosTELLO. The largest number of servicemen who have been
actively engaged in the Pacific theater have been brought back to the
west coast for hospitalization, have they not?
Mr. Beery. I am not able to state the percentage. I laiow a large
number have. How big the number is, I don't know.
Mr. Costello. But there are men who are recuperating here and
who are on leave on the Pacific coast?
Mr. Beery. Yes, sir; and they have friends in California and many
of them are members of the Legion and they appear at the Legion
meetings and they tell of the conditions that they had to face. I
don't mean to say they disclose military information because they
are careful not to.
Mr. Costello. They have related instances of treachery on the
part of the Japanese engaged in fighting in order to bruig about the
death of American troops?
Mr. Beery. Yes, sir. I remember one occasioQ a man was dis-
cussing an incident wherein the Japanese said they wanted to surrender
and sent word to the American troops that they wanted to surrender.
The American troops went over to pick them up and all of the
Americans, with the exception of two were slaughtered.
Mr. Costello. And those acts of treachery being related back
here, has greatly inflamed the people up and down this coast?
Mr. Beery. Yes, sir; and the execution of our aviators that bombed
Tokyo has been one of the greatest factors increasing the feeling of
bitterness and hatred on the part of Americans in California.
9042 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Don't you feel also that in view of the fact that
we have recognized that there are spies in the country, as evidenced
by the fact they put out so many posters warning us against careless
talking, that to release any large number of Japanese thi'oughout
the country would be releasing undoubtedly a few spies who would
be able to obtain some information and communicate it to the enemy?
Mr. Beery. In m.y opinion a few spies is an under statement.
Frankly, I can't find a logical reason for their return at this time.
Mr. CosTELLO. You understand that a system of espionage is in
effect all over the country?
Mr. Berry. That is right. We wouldn't need the Army Intelli-
gence and Navy Intelligence, who are doing such a wonderful job if
there wasn't espionage going on. They are catching espionage agents
all the time.
Mr. CosTELLO. And if we scatter the Japanese by releasing them
individual!}^ to various parts of the country we are only intensifying
their problem and endangering our security in wartime.
Mr. Beery. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are there any questions?
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Beery, do you feel that it is equally undesirable
to release the Japanese from these relocation centers to the midpart of
America and Midwest and central America as it is on the Pacific coast?
Mr. Beery. The feeling of the Legionnaires is not as strong in re-
gard to the release to the Midwest for agricultural purposes as it is to
the Pacific coast. It is very intense on the Pacific coast.
There is this, however, that they do fear that the release of the
Japanese — ^we will take Iowa and Kansas, for example, in the middle
part of the country, in small numbers where they would be spread out
all over the central part of the United States would make surveillance
an impossible task and would put enemy spies and saboteurs in a
position where they could commit acts of depredation in the Midwest.
The opinion, I believe, insofar as releasing them to the Midwest
is that if they are released they should be released in large numbers
in a very concentrated area — that is where they would be in one area
and would be subject to complete control and surveillance by the
F. B. I. and the other constituted authorities.
Mr. MuNDT. You said earlier in your statement that you felt the
control of the Japanese should be put under the War Department?
Mr. Beery. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you tell the committee some of your reasons for
feeling that the present control under the W. R. A. is unsatisfactory?
Mr. Beery. Yes, sir. The W. R. A., as we understand it, has
control of the relocation centers where the Japanese are now being
kept. We have had committees go up to the relocation centers and
we hear from all sides that the Japanese are being taught by conscien-
tious objectors, by pacifists and by those who are attempting to have
the Japanese believe that they are a persecuted minority.
I wrote to the War Relocation Authority myself sometime ago and
asked for some source information in regard to the Japanese. I
received back — I believe it was entitled, "A Bibliography." It may
have been just a list and not have that title. The shocking thing to
me in that was that the source information that they gave was the
same source information that I have found in pacifists' literature and
Fellowship of Reconciliation literature, people who were obviously in
favor of the Japanese.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9043
I received one piece of litei-atiire lliat talked aboul the Japanese
refugees as if we were treatiiii^ the Japanese the way the Germans
treated the Poles and I don't tliink that is proper and I am sure the
Legion doesn't.
The Legion does not desire any harsh or brutal treatment of the
Japanese, and in advocating that they be handled by the Army the
Legion knows that the Army would not be a party to any harsh or
brutal treatment. They would receive fair and considerate treatment
but there would be no danger of what I call subversive activities among
the Japanese.
Air. MuNDT. That is one reason — you feel that they are being
treated from the standpoint of social workers and so forth, as a
persecuted minority. Do you have any other reasons for wanting
them to be under the control of the Army?
Mr. Beery. Yes, sir. I didn't amplify sufficiently probably. It is
our feeling also that subversive activities are being carried on within
the Japanese relocation centers and that those subversive activities
are not being properly curbed and controlled by the persons in charge.
"Sullen I say that I don't want to point my finger to any individual.
The riot at Manzanar created deep concern and the people on the
Pacific coast are not quite yet able to understand how that thing could
have liappened and why it hasn't been more rigidly controlled.
Subversive activities in the relocation centers we believe would be
of serious concern, particularly if there was any release of the Japanese
to the Midwest or any other place.
Mr. MuNDT. Those are two reasons; have you got any more?
Mr. Beery. Nothing other than amplification of those particular
things.
Mr. MuNDT. Let me ask you whether you and the group you repre-
sent, the American Legion, whether 3'ou are satisfied with the method
whereby they failed to segregate in these relocation centers the Kibei
from the Issei and the Nisei? In other words, no attempt was made
to segregate the bad Japanese from what I hope aire the good Japanese.
I imagine that you feel they are all bad?
Mr. Beery. No; I certainly do not. I am satisfied there are good
Japanese. I can't put my finger on them.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you feel the failure to segregate those into camps
is a bad policy? ;
Mr. Beery. We certainly do.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you feel that the relocation centers are wise in the
method by which they are currently releasing these Japanese at the
rate of 600 or 800 or a thousand a week? And whereby they pay them
certain sums of money and buy them a railroad ticket and start them
ofi' for some destination?
Mr. Berry. We feel that that is bad for two reasons: Some of
those that are leaving are going to various universities. They were
released, so we are advised, after an investigation by the Federal
Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. MuxDT. v^^lo advised j'ou as to that? We haven't been able
to verify that or disprove it?
Mr. Berry. I think I can give you the place to get accurate infor-
mation. Clyde Shoemaker, who is a member and was formerly with
the district attorney's office, communicated with the Federal Bureau
of Investigation. He told me that he had received a hotter from them
advising that they had not made a detailed investigation of these
9044 • UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Japanese ; that in manjT- cases an inquiry had been made as to whether
they had any record on any particular Japanese, and a check was made
of that, but that they had not investigated.
Mr. Shoemaker can be reached — I think he is in the Lincohi Buikhng
at the present time. He is an attorney. Mr. Steedman knows him
and I am sure he would be glad to give you the details on that.
The other group who are being released apparently are being re-
leased without a proper method of checking after they have been
released. This is purely hearsay but we are advised that they are
required to report to the local F. B. I. agent when they arrive at their
destination. Wliether that is true or false, I don't know, but gentle-
men, if you have 1,000 Japanese a week going to 1,000 different places
in the United States you are going to pretty near need 1,000 new agents
in the various governmental agencies.
Mr. MuNDT." That is all.
Mr. Steedman. I have no question.
Mr. CosTELLO. We appreciate very much yom" appearing here to-
day, Mr. Beery, and to have the Legion represented.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, on May 26, 1943, you heard in ex-
ecutive session Mr. H. H. Townsend, formerly chief supply and
transportation officer at the Boston relocation center.
I have Mr. Townsend's testimony before me at the present time
and I woidd like to introduce his testimony into the record merely
for the purpose of making it available to the press. Will the com-
mittee accept it for that purpose?
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, this is the transcript of the testi-
mony that was given at an executive session before this committee?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. And you wish to make that a part of the public
record of the hearings?
Mr. Steedman. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. And this H. H. Townsend is the same individual
to whom reference has been made from time to time during the
coiu-se of the testimony before the committee?
Air. Steedman. That is correct, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. If there is no objection, the testimony given by
Mr. Townsend on the 26th of May will be made a part of the public
records of the committee.
Mr. Mundt. No objection.
Mr. Eberharter. No objection.
Mr. Costello. It is so ordered.
(The testimony of H. H. Townsend was made a part of this record
by reference, as follows:)
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee
To Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif., May 26, 1943.
The subcommittee met at 2 p. m. in room 1405, Federal Building, Los Angeles,
Calif., Hon. John M. Costello (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee, acting
counsel.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9045
Testimony of Harold Haldeman Townsend, Formerly Chief Supply and
Transportation Officer, Colorado River War Relocation Project,
Post on, Ariz.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Stkedman. State your full name.
Mr. Townsend. Harold Haldcman Townsend.
Mr. Steedman. Where do you live?
Mr. Townsend. 2402 North Highland Avenue, Hollywood.
Mr. Steedman. Are you an American citizen?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Where were you born?
Mr. Townsend. Merrill, Wis.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. Townsend. August 31, 1885.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever served in the United States Army?
Mr. Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. Townsend. 1918.
Mr. Steedman. Did you serve in France?
Mr. Townsend. Six months in France.
Mr. Steedman. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Townsend. I am working for the Government.
Mr. Steedman. In a confidential capacity?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please state briefly your educational training?
Mr. Townsend. I went through grade school and high school in Merrill and
Madison, Wis., and in Madison went to the University of Wisconsin; and I have
taken a few courses, night courses, and I spent 2 months at Columbia, and 3
months in Paris.
Mr. Steedman. Just after the war?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
j\Ir. Steedman. Will you please give a brief outline of the most important job
or jobs that you have held?
Air. Townsend. Well, I was juvenile officer in Indian Territory in Oklahoma
before statehood. I was chief of police in Tulsa, and became special agent of the
Standard Oil Co. in the Mid-Continent field for 7 years, having charge of their
secret-service work in Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, and Louisiana.
I then went overseas, and then came to California as an independent oil pro-
ducer, and got into the real-estate business and developed three major com-
munities. Then I became the western district representative of the Independent
Petroleum Association of America, during which time I served 5 years on the
pension board, the police and fire pension commission of Los Angeles. Then was
the assistant State director for the Government on defense training, and was the
State director for the Government on the in-plant training for defense purposes.
Then I went to the war relocation camp at Poston, Ariz, as the chief supply and
transportation officer; then did some special work on the Indian reservation at
Parker, Ariz., and that brings me up to the present time, at which time I am pre-
pared to leave for South America.
Mr. Steedman. When are you leaving for South America?
Mr. Townsend. Tomorrow night at 10 o'clock on the Pan-American Clipper.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, when did you accept a position with th3
W. R. A. at Poston, Ariz.?
Mr. Townsend. Approximately-Julv 25 through the O. E. M.
Mr. Steedman. Julv 25, 1942?'
Mr. Townsend. 1942.
Mr. Steedman. What was your title?
Mr. Townsend. Chief supply and transportation officer.
Mr. Steedman. Will you recite briefly what your duties and your respon-
sibilities were?
Mr. Townsend. I had charge of the purchasing for the quartermaster, and
othcrAvise, of all foods, supplies, and equipment used in the entire project. I had
charge of all of the motor equipment, trucks, cars, tractors, dredges, draglines,
every type and character, and in addition to that I was in charge of the 180
warehouses that were filled to capacity with the surplus supplies needed for the
camps.
9046 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stebdman. What was your salary?
Mr. TowNSEND. $3,800 when I started, and $4,200 when I left.
Mr. Steedman. Who is the director of the W. R. A.? I mean nationally.
Mr. TowNSEND. Dillon S. Myer.
Mr. Steedman. Who is the project director at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Wade Head.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please name some of his principal assistants?
Mr. Townsend. His assistant director is Mr. Ralph Gelvin. Mr. John Evans
is third in command. Mr. Nelson, whose initials I have forgotten, is a roving
assistant. He is a field man who assists Mr. Head. Mr. Gus Empie is the chief
administrative officer representing the W. R. A. and the Indian Service, whose
department I was directly under. I was under Mr. Empie and not Mr. Head.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Empie was your immediate superior?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Where is Poston, Ariz., located?
Mr. Townsend. 18 miles south of Parker, Ariz., on the Colorado River Indian
Reservation.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Bureau of Indian Affairs furnish the land for the Poston
camp site?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Does the Bureau of Indian Affairs in any way supervise the
activities of the camp?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. In what way?
Mr. Townsend. Having read the agreement made between the W. R. A. and
the Indian Department, I am a little bit familiar with the arrangements made.
It was the understanding — from my observation of this contract, it was my
understanding that the Indian Department would have complete and total charge
of the camps and the W. R. A. was to supply the money for the agriculture and
irrigation; and that the Indian Department was to make the appointments of the
cainp management, and it was to be run under Indian personnel
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, this isn't what happened, is it?
Mr. Townsend. Partly.
Mr. Steedman. Partly?
Mr. Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. How far is the Poston camp from Los Angeles?
Mr. Townsend. About 320 miles down to the first camp. You see, there are
three camps at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please describe the physical set-up of the Poston
relocation camp?
Mr. Townsend. 18 miles south of Parker, 5 miles east of the Colorado River,
camp No. 1 was constructed, consisting of 800 buildings; 5 miles farther south,
camp No. 2 was constructed with 400 buildings; and 3 miles farther south, camp
No. 3, with 400 buildings. All three camps have had modern utilities of all types
installed.
Mr. Steedman. Are the barracks air-conditioned?
Mr. Townsend. A part of them. All of the administration barracks, and a
part of the other barracks are air-conditioned.
Mr. Steedman. How many persons can the three camps at Poston accom-
modate?
Mr. Townsend. 20,000 is the capacity.
Mr. Steedman. Is the camp at Poston near adequate water supply?
Mr. TowNSE"ND. They have excellent water supply. They have their own
drinking water high pressure system in each camp, in addition to the major canals
being supplied irrigation water from a very expensive dam on the Colorado River,
3 miles north of Parker.
Mr. Steedman. Is that the so-called Parker irrigation dam?
Mr. Townsend. The Parker Indian Reservation Dam, and north of there we
have the major large Parker Dam.
Mr. Steedman. T see. Does the camp have water for swimming pools?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. They have swimming pools in each camp, supplied
by the irrigation ditches.
Mr. Steedman. Are these pools in use by the Japanese?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; constantly.
Mr. Steedman. Does the camp have water for lawns?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. The lawn water is used from the irrigation ditches,
when the ditches are filled. Otherwise, the other water is used for lawns and some
agriculture between the barracks.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9047
Mr. Steedman. Is there enoujjh water available for shrubs and vegetables?
Mr. TowNSEND. There is an abundance of water for everything.
Mr. Steedman. Is a new irrigation system being«built at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. »
Mr. STEEDMA>f. What Government agency is building that system?
Mr. TowNSEND. The Indian Service has complete charge of thp irrigation
system. There are some portions of it being put in by contract; bridges, culverts,
and some dredging or some dragline work has been handled under contract.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what the estimated cost of this project is?
Mr. TowNSEND. The total camps?
Mr. Steedman. The estimated cost of the irrigation project.
Mr. Townsend. No; I don't think they do. I don't think they have completely
estimated it, because the engineering department, when I was attempting to get
the figures on the size of it, they were still in a quandry just how far they would
extend the ditches. It would run into many millions of dollars.
Mr. Steedman. This project is being built to service the camp at Poston where
the Japanese live; is that correct?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. The irrigation system wouldn't be necessary if the Japanese
weren't located at Poston, would it?
Mr. Townsend. Not except that they are planning to irrigate the agricultural
land that the Japanese are expected to handle.
Mr. Steedman. In building the irrigation system, are they using Japanese labor?
Mr. Townsend. Very little. The majority is being put in by Indians under
the Indian engineer, Rupkey. The land is being cleared partly by the Japanese
labor.
Mr. Steedman. What is the rate of pay for the Japanese labor?
Mr. Townsend. S19 a month.
Mr. Steedman. From your observation, are the Japanese good and conscient-
ious workers?
Mr. Townsend. They are not. They are very poor labor. They will not work
more than 2 or 3 hours a day, and loaf during that period of time, and they very
frankly state that they don't intend to work, as it is a benefit to their country by
holding up all progress.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, do you know how much it cost to build the
camps at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. The construction of the camps, the lumber cost?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Townsend. The cost of the lumber, according to our records, was $8,300,-
000, using 34,000,000 feet. But that was only a very small portion of the cost,
because in addition to that we had the plumbing utilities, and roads, and various
other things added to that cost.
INIr. Steedman. Does the camp have streets?
Mr. Townsend. Yes; all beautifully graded and partly hard-surfaced "^streets.
Mr. Steedman. And sewers?
]Mr. Townsend. Sewers, electric lights, water, party telephone.
]\Ir. Steedman. Do they have a hospital at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Thej- have a very fine hospital, a verj' large hospital, modern
in every respect; large enough to handle approximately 600 people, and it is
usually filled.
Mr. Steedman. Are there doctors and nurses?
Mr. Townsend. A complete staff of doctors and nurses. There is the Cau-
casian doctor and partly Caucasian nurses, and the balance are Japanese doctors
and Japanese nurses.
Mr. Steedman. In summing up the three camps at Poston, have all of them
modern conveniences?
Mr. Townsend. Complete in every detail, with every modern convenience
that we could put into such a development, and very superior to many of our
modern Army camps.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, were the mess halls under j'our jurisidction?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. There were 78 mess halls, complete in ever}' detail.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall how much food was consumed daily?
Mr. Townsend. We, by actual count, supplied 58 tons of subsistence per day.
Mr. Steedman. Fifty-eight tons of food?
Mr. Townsend. In 78 mess halls, using 58 tons of food daily.
Mr. Steedman. Would you mind giving us that in detail?
Mr. Townsend. In the 3 camps there are 78 mess halls, using 58 tons of
food daily, the finest quality that money can buy, all grade A, top brands.
9048 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. How is the food purchased?
Mr. TowNSEND. Part of it is purchased through the Quartermaster's Depart-
ment under contract, and pairt of it is purchased on the open niarliet.
Mr. Steedman. You were in charge- of the actual supply of the food to the
various mess halls; is that correct?
Mr. TowNSEND. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Were you able to obtain sufficient food to feed the Japanese?
Mr. TowNREND. We obtained sufficient food in wasteful quantifies, but could
not satisfy the Japanese. And by "wasteful quantities," I mean this: that we
were expected to comply with the menus furnished us b}' the W. R,. A., and the
quarterm.aster's contracts were made on that basis, and the food was sent to us
constantly on the basis of the contracts, and our chief steward checked the per-
sonnel and added to or deducted from the amoimt of food needed. And, of course,
the food bought on the open market was bought where the quarte^ma^ter couidn't
fill the needed orders.
Mr. Steedman. The amount of the food and the type of food was determined
by the W. R. A. in Washington; is that correct?
Mr. TowNSEND. Largely so, yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was there any plan at the camp as to the amount and type of
food that you would serve the Japanese?
Mr. TowNSEND. We made plans according to Japanese requests. Frequently
it would be contrary to W. R. A. menus, but the W. R. A. did not take into con-
sideration the fact that we were feeding two types of people, the Japanese people,
who would eat nothing but the Japanese food, arid the American Japanese, who
would eat nothing but American food, and being compelled to have the two types
of food complicated our supply program to the point where we had considerable
leeway in making orders other than those called for under the W. R. A. menus.
Mr. Steedman. Was it necessary to cook for two different types of individuals?
Mr. TowNSEND. Absolutely.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall about how much bread was consumed daily
at Poston?
Mr. TowNSEND. We purchased 3,750 pounds of bread daily.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese, as a rule, eat much bread?
Mr. Townsend. They are not great bread eaters. The majority of this bread
was dried and stored away.
Mr. Steedman. What was the purpose of the Japanese hoarding the bread?
Mr. Townsend. They stated that they were hoarding food, bread and other
supplies, for parachute troops and for invasion forces.
Mr. Steedman. I will ask you this question, Mr. Townsend: How was this
food hoarded or stored?
Mr. Townsend. The information that was furnished me by certain friendly
groups was that they had placed different types of emergency food in secret
cellars under the mess halls for the invasion armies and parachute troopers.
But in addition to that that they had large caches of food throughout the desert,
buried, that could be used for similar jourposes. And this information was
furnished by friendly Japanese who were endeavoring to get special favors, and
we were constantly trying to find out what was happening to certain supplies,
and we always had a number of Japanese that would give us information for an
exchange of favors.
Mr. Steedman. I will ask you this question, How did you obtain your
information?
Mr. Townsend. We developed a corps of younger Japanese boys, through
their ambitious desire to drive equipment, to furnish information on the theft
and loss of supplies, particularly between the Parker rail head and the camps,
and through these informants we developed a number of older Japanese people
who would, for special favors, give us information relative to thefts and activities
that were coming up in the camp area. We constantly had probably 15 or 20
informants that kept us advised as to certain storages within the camp area.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, was any attempt made to stop this practice
by the camp authorities?
Mr. Townsend. At numerous times we had these thieves caught, and produced
evidence and information about the process of the entire thieving ring. The
matter was placed before Mr. Empie, and Mr. Head, and Mr. Gelvin, and the
M. P. authorities, and it was always stopped, because there was no way that
they could see that we would be benefited by trying to prosecute them. We
then established a daily loss of approximately $500 through the thefts within
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9049
tlie camp, wliicli was agreed upon by all of us, and even at tliat they would jiot
take any action toward prosecution.
Now, then, pardon me. Off the record.
Mr. Steedmax. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Steedman. I will ask you this question, Mr. Townsend: What was
happening to the stolen goods?
Mr. TowNSEXD. Well, through the informants we checked on many of the
thefts, and we found that there were two systems. One was to imload certain
portions of the trucks lietwcen the warehouse or the railhead at Parker and the
camps, which stuff would be picked up later by some cooperating theft group,
and the other system was to uidoad it from the warehouse and take it out of the
camps through the irrigation ditch program, past the guards on the highway.
The only guards around the camp were two guards at the north gate of the
camp on the main highway, and two guards on the south of the camp on the
main highway. That left son:e 15 or 20 gates out of the camp which the con-
struction workers were using, particularly the irrigation ditch people; and the
Japanese having complete charge of the warehouses and supplies and the sub-
sistence movement to the mess halls, they would load out of the warehouse more
than they expected to take to the mess halls. They would have an overload, and
would pile it up at certain spots, and then one of the other trucks would take it
to the waiting truck, and wotdd move it outside the camp.
Mr. Steedman. There was collusion then between the Japanese at the ware-
houses and the Japanese on the trucks?
Mr. TowxsEXD. They were all the same. The.y were exchanging all the time.
Another tmfortunate thing was that we never had a system of knowing one
Jap from another. They passed the guards under the same pass. We would
pass the warehouse truckers going up to Parker, and there woidd be one group
todaj' and another group tomorrow, and they interchanged through the whole
system. That was true in all of our work down there. We had no way of check-
ing except only the ones we knew personally.
Mr. CosTELLo. The pass didn't have a photograph of the individual or any
identification of him on it?
Mr. TowxsEXD. They had no permit of any kind, except just writing their
names on a piece of paper, say, 25 down in a line, and you wouldn't know 25 Japs
that went out today from 25 others that went out tomorrow, except the ones that
we knew as our personal assistants.
Mr. Stekdmax. Mr. Townsend. turning to the supervision of the mess halls, I
believe you have stated that the W. 11. A. in Washington sent out the menus for
you to follow at Poston; is that correct?
Mr. TowNSEXD. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedmax. Were these mentis followed to the letter?
Mr. TowxsEXD. No, they were not; due to the fact that the menu only set up
food for one group of people, and the Nisei or the American-born Japanese would
not eat the Japanese-prepared food, and the Japanese-born people would not eat
the American food. Se we had to build two menus, and the American-born
Japane.se had to have American food, and the Japanese people had to have
Japanese food.
Mr. Steedmax. Are you familiar with the food being served in the Army at the
present time? ,
Mr. TowxsEXD. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedmax. Was the food that you served to the Japanese at foston as
good or better than that being served to the Army?
Mr. TowNSEXD. It was superior in every way, and I can make that statement
from this standpoint: Prior to going to Poston, for 2 months I was working on
supplies for Army camps, both Navy and the Army, and I contacted every camp
and every naval base in southern California from the supply and food standpoint.
And I make that statement for this reason : I was associated with the Associated
Dairies and had contact with a group of men who are developing a $25,000,000
corporation to raise supplies and produce for the Army and Navy, and I am the
one who made the contracts between the Army and the Navy and these people,
and therefore visited every supply representative in southern California for the
Army and Navy before I went to Poston.
Then I found that there was a very great difference between the food supplied
to the Army and the Japanese. I estimated that the Japanese food was about
25 percent better than that to the Army.
Mr. Steedmax. How much cash allowance was allowed per day, per Japanese?
Mr. Townsend. Forty-five cents per person, including all the infants.
9050 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese served ice cream at Poston?
Mr. TowNSEND. Yes, sir. We had ice cream brought to us every day from
the Golden State Creamery Co.
Mr. Steedman. And milk?
Mr. TowNSEND. Our milk orders ran from 8,000 to 12,000 quarts of homo-
genized milk every day.
Mr. Steedman. Where did you obtain the milk from?
Mr. TowNSEND. Golden State Creamery Co.
Mr. Steedman. And butter?
Mr. TowNSEND. We had the finest grade of Challenge butter, and other high-
grade butter that we could buy.
Mr. Steedman. Fruit?
Mr. TowNSEND. Fruit was the finest type, individually wrapped; the finest
packed fruit that the markets would provide.
Mr. Steedman. Was there plenty of meat and sausage of all kinds supplied?
Mr. TowNSEND. The finest cuts and grade A meats; quarters and full car-
casses of lambs and pork, and the best cuts of beef were brought in; on an average
of one refrigerator car a day.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that all of it was of the very best grade?
Mr. TowNSEND. The finest grade that we could get.
Mr. Steedman. Was the grade of food better than that obtained by our own
citizens in the markets and stores?
Mr. Townsend. Very much better than you can buy in the open market.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did they ever have any shortages at Poston of any commod-
ities, while you were there?
Mr. Townsend. No, sir. Mr. Costello, we ordered 60 to 90 days ahead, and
we did once i;i a while have some mishap that threw us a little short on somelhiiig,.
but we alwa . s had supplies in the warehouse. On some of the perishable things —
for instance, I condemned a carload. We were in the habit of receiving large
quantities of bad order vegetables. Each carload had a number of cases of
ratten stuff i'l ii, ai d I put a man specially to check the cars, and he found out
that they were all pushing it too strong, and I condemned the whole caiload.
And when we condemn a carload of fresh vegetables, it would set us back a little
bit, until we got straightened out, but we always had an ample supply in the
warehouse.
Mr. Costello. But you never did have, like we had in California, an actual
meat shortage, where you didn't have enough to go around?
Mr. Townsend. There never was a shortage. We have two big refrigerators,
refrigerator warehouses, and each warehouse will take two or three carloads of
meats, and then at the Parker rail head we have an enormous refrigerator ware-
house system, where we can handle two or three carloads, so we always had pleritv
of fresli meat aliead; And then we got carloads, every week we had several
carloads of fine wrapped hams and cases of sausages, and all of the various kiads
of meat, tliat we kept for emergency purposes.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, did you keep any rough figures on the number
of tons of food wasted daily at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. We were working on the agricultural supplies, and.
in checking up the number df hogs that we might put in, we estimated the amount
of garbage that could be used, set up a salvage plant where we would keep gar-
bage, and for thg,t reason had to know the amount of garbage we had and the
size of the plant we needed to build, so we made a very careful check for a period
of a mont^h, 30 days, and we estimated that we were averaging approximately 10
tons of garl>age per day. We figured there was — after going into it very care-
fully, we figured that there was approximately 7 tons of that food that could be
used.
Mr. Steedm.\n. Didn't the chef ever serve any left-overs?
Mr. Townsend. The Japanese chefs did not serve left-overs.
Mr. Steedman. What was done with the garbage?
Mr. Townsend. Sir?
Mr. Steedman. \^ hat was done with the garbage?
Mr. Townsend. It was taken — we would load it onto equipment and dig
ditches and throw it into the ditches and cover it up.
Mr. Steedman. What happened with reference to the idea of feeding it to the
hogs?
Mr. Townsend. Up until January 30 there was nothing done at all. About
January 30, Washington wrote the director and asked him how many hogs thay
had to use the 9 or 10 tons of garbage that we had in the camp, and we had been
out trying to buy hogs, and yve had every hog in southern California — throu_gh
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9051
this same group that was buildinji this $25,000,000 corporation, we had every
hog farm and every cattle farm tabulated, and we knew all the hogs available,
so he had this hog man check the hogs, and at the time the letter was received
there wasn'i a hog in the camp. They then, without any knowledge on the
part of the supply department, ordered in two hmidred 200-pound hogs, and they
answered Washington by telling them that we had 200 hogs.
I would like to enlarge a little bit upon that. If you know anything about
hogs, you know you wouldn't want to start feeding 2b0-pound hogs. They are
ready for the market. They bought two hundred 200-pound hogs and paid 25
cents a pound for them. The same hered of hogs, as listed in the market, could
have been bought for 17 cents a pound, and they were hogs that we were consider-
ing buying for butchering for pork. They were too old to be handled for feeders,
and that order should have been for hogs that would have cost $10 or $15, to
feed the garbage to, instead of paying 25 cents a pound. Now they have this
number of hogs down there, weighing 300 or 400 pounds, and they are not fit
for anything except lard.
Mr. Steedman. Who was responsible for that?
Mr. TowNSEND. Well, Mr. Mathieson is in charge of the stores and the
agriculture.
Mr. Steedmax. Do you have his full name?
Mr. TowNSEND. I think it is H. A. I don't know. I couldn't tell you offhand.
Under Mr. Mathieson is Mr. Sharp, handling the agriculture, and in collusion
with Mr. Nelson, Mr. Sharp and Mr. Mathieson, by orders from Mr. Head, were
told to get the hogs in there, so he could answer that letter from Washington,
and somehow Iney got hold of this unusual purchase, paying 25 cents a pound.
And the warehouse record will show that, that there are 200 hogs, weighing 200
pounds apiece, for which they paid 25 cents a pound. That is the most ridiculous
purchase of hogs I ever heard of, for garbage consumption.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, how many warehouses did you say were
under vour jurisdiction at Poston?
Mr. "TowxsEXD. 180.
Mr. Steedman. 180?
Mr. Townsend. 180 warehouses.
Mr. Steedman. Were you in direct charge of the warehouses?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedm.\n. How many Japanese were employed in the warehouses?
Mr. Townsend. 2,700, I believe, in the — now, wait a minute. In the ware-
houses, no. I think there were
Mr. Steedman. An approximation will be all right.
■ Mr. Townsend. There were 680 Japanese and 4 white supervisors in the
warehouses.
Mr. Steedman. In addition to the food stored in the warehouses, what else
was stored there?
Mr. Townsend. There v.ere supplies and equipment of every conceivable
type in the numerous \\arehouses. The C. C. C. had sent in hundreds of car-
loads of miscellaneous equipment, and before I arrived, a third of the warehouses
were filled with miscellaneous food supplies, canned goods and otherwise, and there
were shipments of furniture, the finest upholstered furniture, ice boxes, electric ice
boxes, air conditioners, supplies, and all sorts of machinery; tractors, trucks, mis-
cellaneous equipment, far too nvnnerous to mention, for every purpose under
the sun. We had warehouses that we moved the stuff into and locked up, anfl
they hadn't been opened for months, because it was just miscellaneous equipment.
We didn't know what it was.
]Mr. Steedman. Why was it stored at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. It was assigned to the W. R. A., and for purposes that we didn't
know.
Now, as for the furniture, of course, the Poston development includes a very
marvelous Caucasian personnel center. The plan showed 54 modern bungalows,
and 2 dormitories, 3 stories, one for women and one for men, and the administra-
tion hones, which wovild cost some\\herc t)etween fifteen and twenty thous?,ud
dollars. There were to be 4 of them, and a beautiful park area, with swimming
pools, and so forth. And this furniture was purchased for that purpose, to fur-
nish those. It was all bought from Barker Bros., and the prices on it were n >t
reasonable. They were very, very high in consideration of the many, ma ly
carloads. We must have had, oh, at least 20 carloads of that type of furniture.
Mr. Steedman. When was that received?
Mr. Townsend. \A"ell, it was received at intervals, all the way from before I
arrived, aixi it was coming in up until September, including rugs. We had one
9052 UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
or two cases of rugs, large rugs, beautiful rugs, 40 feet by 20 feet, and dozens
and dozens of very fine rugs of smaller dimensions; a whole warehouse filled
with beautiful rugs.
Mr. Steedman. They plan to be comfortable down there?
Mr. TowNSEND. Very comfortable. They have the finest furniture I have ever
been used to, and I had some pretty good furniture.
Mr. CosTELLO. Who is responsible for that furniture?
Mr. TowNSEND. Well, the camp director ordered it, of course, but he must have
had the approval from scfmeone higher than that. And there were other things.
However, it wasn't necessary to get the approval, and if you will let me divert a
little bit, I will do so.
Somebody came into Los Angeles and ordered some 20 or 30 dump trucks
through a Jewish firm down here on Alameda. I inspected the dump trucks,
because they were strictly under my department, and I told them that I wouldn't
pay thein one-third of the price of the trucks, that the trucks were a fleet that had
been sent up in some shipment from some big construction firm that had
worn them out, and they had been given a coat of black paint, and that they
wouldn't be any good at all for our road work. We had an order to put the
military highway through, and these trucks were to be used on that. The trucks
were charged to us at $2,400 apiece. They were not worth $400 apiece, so I
refused to approve the order.
Mr. Empie refused to approve the order on my suggestion, and they then sent
someone else over here, and they looked at the trucks, and this man refused to
accept them at that price. Somehow later on the purchase order was issued
through the procurement department for the trucks, and the trucks were tried
to be delivered over there. They had to be towed in, and they paid $80,000 for
the worthless trucks, and they are sitting in the junk yard over there. So it
isn't alwaj's a need for Washington approval of major purchases. That fleet of
trucks was purchased without it.
Then there is another thing that occurs to me. We were very anxious to get
school busses. We brought in — we had 400 teachers, and we had a big school
program under way, so I lined up school busses through the Fred Harvey pro-
gram, the only busses available at the Grand Canyon. They had beautiful
equipment up there, Pierce-Arrow equipment, that we were to get at $3,000 a
bus; large, fine, de luxe equipment. After I left there, they bought a bus in
Phoenix and paid $3,700 for it, that had been sitting on a lot for 2 years.
I looked up the transportation man, the Government transportation man,
I have forgotten his name, but I was trying to buy the busses through Los Angeles,
and I went to Phoenix, and he referred me to all of the equipment in that district.
This bus had been sitting there for 2 years, and it was just a wreck, and was a
piece of junk. So we did as we pleased, and we didn't need to have approval.
That is why I am merely mentioning these items, and there are hundreds of other
items.
Mr. Steedman. Going back to the fleet of dump trucks bought in Los Angeles,
do you recall the name of the firm those trucks were purchased from?
Mr. TowNSEND. I think it was Finkelstein. Finkelstein is another one of
the swindlers that we bought hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment
from — this firm of Finkelstein, and always there was a kick-back to the procure-
ment representative.
Mr. Steedman. Is Finkelstein located in Los Angeles?
Mr. TowNSEND. He is here; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Is that his firm name?
Mr. Townsend. Finkelstein & Co., one of these big salvage companies.
Mr. Steedman. He sold a lot of material to the camp?
Mr. Townsend. Hundreds of thousands of dollars' 'worth. He furnished the
water pipe, and all of the metal and steel work, and all of that stuff. We bought
a lot of stuff from him, and the records show before I got there that he had been
supplying everything, and his prices were terrific for old junk, and much of it is
over there as junk, although much of it has been used.
Mr. Steedman. Whom did he deal with directly?
Mr. Townsend. He went through the procurement department, Mr. Palmer.
Mr. Steedman. At Poston? ,
Mr. Townsend. He is at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Palmer have authority to deal directly with Mr.
Finkelstein?
Mr. Townsend. Oh, yes. And Mr. Nelson, I believe, was the contact man
with Mr. Fred Finkelstien.
Mr. Steedman. Do vou know Mr. Nelson's first name?
UN-A^IERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9053
jNIr. TowxsKXD. I do not. I can't be sure of that.
Mr. Steedmax. Going back to the supervision of the warehouses, the four
white men that were sui^ervisors under you, did you consider them to be honest
and relial)le?
^[r. TowxsEXD. Not all of thorn. There was one man that was wholly de-
pendable and reliable, but he didn't have very much authority.
Mr. Steedm.\x. What is his naxne?
Mr. TowNSEND. Bert Vatcher. He is 100 percent. The fact is, he was my
warehouse informant.
Mr. Wickersham was the chief wareliouse officer, and is a nice, fine man, but
he didn't have an\' authority at all. Thej^ stripped him of every bit of authority,
and he is merely holding his job because he is safe, and he is very afraid to talk.
Mr. Steedman. You say "they." You are referring to Mr. Head and Mr.
Empie?
Mr. TowNSEXD. Yes. He just hasn't any say at all, yet he is in charge, he is
the chief warehouseman. Then the other men are not responsible men at all,
and they are not honest. While I was there, I lost one man, who went into the
service, and we employed other men; that is, I didn't. Mr. Head employed
other men, and thej' are not reliable men at all. In other words, the men can't
be reliable when the thefts and the conditions are as they are in the warehouse,
and these men have to close their e,ves to it; and when they don't say anything
about it, we know they are in collusion with the Japanese.
Mr. Steedmax. You said there were 680 Japanese working in the warehouses?
Mr. Townsexd. Yes; there had been.
Mr. Steedmax. Do they control the warehouses?
Mr. Townsexd. Everything.
Mr. Steedmax. And distribute all of the material?
'Sir. Townsexd. The system is this: We have a card systein, and when goods
are received, they are supposed to l:»e requisitioned out, and the requisition system
is a farce. There was no way of correcting it, because it was the policy to let the
old system continue.
For instance, if _\ ou wanted from Warehouse 1,10 mattresses or 100 mattresses,
or 1,000, whatever it was, you would go down and get the mattresses. Then if
\ou happened to think about it, there would be a requisition put through. The
requisition should be approved by the proper authorities; if they were available,
they approved it. If they were not available, they didn't approve it. If they
wanted to Tiia.ke a requisition, they made it. If the\ didn't want to make it they
didn't make it.
Mr. Steedmax. And the material was all in the hands of the Japanese?
Mr. Towxsexd. Yes. You would see 10 trucks leaving the warehouse loaded,
and at the beginning I wasn't concerned a great deal about it. I presumed when
1 went down there that everything was in good order. It took me 30 days to
find out there was no system/ and it took me several months to try to break m
some system, and they^ wouldn't tolerate it. I insisted on an inventory being
taken, and I wanted a "perpetual inventory for the entire camp, and they overrode
me on that.
Mr. Steedmax. Who is "thev"?
Mr. Towxsexd. Mr. Erapie, Mr. Head, Mr. Gclvm, Mr. Nelson, and Mr
Evans. I wanted to import some expert warehouseman and take an inventory
of the entire warehouse system, and I came in and got hold of Mr. Green of the
O. E. M. and started getting warehousemen lined up. I went back and found
out that Mr. Empie and Mr. Head had given orders to the .warehousemen to
start the inventory, and have the inventory taken by the Japanese, and it was a
big joke. Tlie Japanese themselves came to me and laughed about it, and told
me what they were doing. Then is when Mr. Vatcher came in, and for your
information, if you want a goori. clean-cut man, and, of course, he wants to hold
his job, but if you want a good, clean-cut man, Bert Vatcher will give you the
information. ^Ir. Wickersham won't, because he is afraid; he doesn't want to
lose his job.
Mr. Steedmax. Perhaps we had better recess for a minute. We have been
going rather steadily.
{A short recess was taken.)
Mr. Steedmax. Mr. Townsend, how were supplies shipped to Poston?
Mr. Towxsexd. We received a major part by rail and part by truck.
Mr. Steedman. Do vou recall how many carloads of supplies were received
daily?
Mr. Towxsexd. Yes. We received approximately 10 cars, railroad cars, and
2 trucks and trailers a day.
Mr. Steedman. Where were these supplies received?
62626 — 43— vol. lo 15
9054 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIvft?IES
Mr. TowNSEND. The railroad supplies were received at the warehouse at
Parker, and the trucks were received at the warehouse at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. There is a rail head at Parker; is that right?
Mr. TowNSEND. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Are there warehouses located at the rail head?
Mr. Townsend. Yes. We have a system of eight warehouses, 40 by 100, at
the rail head.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, did you see such things stored at the terminal
as grade A beef, whole hogs, lambs, ham, bacon, iced lettuce, carloads of 1-pound
packs of butter, carloads of cheese, and so forth?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; constantly.
Mr. Steedman. Was this shipped in to feed the Japanese who were located at
Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did you ever hear the Japanese at Poston make a statement
that they received better food inside the camp than they did when they went out?
Mr. Townsend. Yes. We shipped out several hundred Japanese for agricul-
tural purposes into the Central and Northern States, and when these men would
come back, they would come in and they would tell us that they were very happy
toget back into the camp, because their treatment on the outside and their food
and accommodations were so inferior that they were an.xious to get back and
stay, and they would not leave the camp any more.
Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the term, Kibei?
Mr. Townsend. Yes. That is the American-born Japanese educated
Mr. Steedman. Educated in Japan, and who came back here?
Mr. Townsend. Oh, yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how many of those there were down at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Well, I wouldn't know exactly. We figured that we had
about, between four and five hundred of those Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Did j'ou ever hear any of the Kibei boast that the Japanese
educational system was a better system than ours?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. All of them would tell you very definitely that the
men who went to Japan and who were educated there were far superior to the
men who were educated in America.
Mr. Steedman. Were maiiy of these Kibei on the internal police force?
Mr. Townsend. I didn't get that.
Mr. Steedman. I asked you, were many of the Kibei on the internal police
force?
Mr. Townsend. Yes; a large number of them were.
Mr. Steedman. They composed the so-called goon squads that you have
referred to?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir. The police force was largely built up of the gestapo,
as I have called them, because they tell you that they have trained under the
German agents, and they were, in my estimation, the men that were guilty of the
malicious beating up and all the malicious agitation in the camp, because the
police force would not permit any decent American-born Japanese to take part,
because he might expose some of their under-cover work.
Mr. Steedman. These so-called strong-arm squads visited the various camp
officials from time to time, did they?
Mr. Townsend. They were in their offices all the time. In fact, they con-
trolled and domineered them all the time.
Mr. Steedman. Did they ever visit you?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; they visited me and made demands that were never
met, particularly during the strike.
Mr. Steedman. While you were at Poston, was there any official investigation
made of the conditions at the camp?
Mr. Townsend. I don't know that I understand what you mean, but there were
lots of different delegations, from your Department and from different sources,
would come into the camp for the purpose of looking the camp over.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Head know when the delegations were to come?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; he would be notified in advance either by wire or
. telephone, or thev would write him a letter.
Mr. Steedman. Did he confer with the staff regarding the coming investiga-
tions?
Mr. Townsend. Very frequently. He would call us together and state that
certain delegations were coming in and asked us to prepare for the procedure.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9055
Mr. Steedman. So the investigators only saw what Mr. Head and the camp
officials wanted to show them?
Mr. TowNSBND. That is what he did. He would take charge of them, and
when they came to the gate, he would be no titled by the guards and usually got
in the car with them and stayed with them while they were there.
Mr. Steeumax. Do you think it is possible for an investigator to obtain the
full and complete facts of what is going on at Poston if Mr. Head and the officials
knows he is there?
Mr. Tow.NsEND. He will not get the facts, either from the Japanese or from
any of the Caucasians, unless they go in as employees unknown to Mr. Head.
^Ir. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, are yon familiar with the school svstem inside
Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Very well, yes. sir. I helped set it up and had much to do
with the equipping of all of the buildings.
Mr. Steedman. Who is the head of the educational department at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Mr. Gary.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know anything about Mr. Gary's background?
Mr. Townsend. Yes. Mr. Gary and most of the Caucasion staff were imported
from Honolulu, and he was the principal of the McKinley High School there.
Mr. Steedman. Why were they brought in, do you know?
Mr. Townsend. Sir?
Mr. Steedman. Do you know why they were brought here from Honolulu?
Mr. Towsend. I only have my own per,^onal ideas why. I never did hear
definitely why they were brought in, but he told me frequentlj'^ that he was one
of the few men that understood the Japanese and got along with them.
^Ir. Steedman. Was that Mr. Gary who said that?
Mr. Townsend. Mr. Garj\ Dr. Miles Gary is his title, and Miss Findley,
who is the head of the welfare department, has some very definite pull in Wash-
ington, and she wields a very heavy stick, and is a very vicious Japanese supporter.
Dr. Miles Gary and Miss Findley were friends in Honolulu, and they came over
together and brought over most of the staff from the McKinley High School.
Mr. Steedman. How many teachers are there at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. There are 100 Gaucasions, and 200 or more Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the teachers at Poston had to be
passed on by the Arizona Board of Education?
Mr. Townsend. At any time?
Mr. Steedman. At any time.
Mr. Townsend. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Does the curriculum in the school follow the same curriculum
they have in the public schools in the State of Arizona?
Sir. Townsend. No; it is a little different. It is entirely set up in the camp
under Dr. Gary, and doesn't follow even the textbooks. I had to get the textbooks
and have thern delivered. The textbooks were not the Arizona textbooks. Most
of them were shipped in, and part of them were secured through the Los Angeles
school authorities.
Mr. Steedman. Were textbooks bought through the purchasing office?
Mr. Townsend. Yes. sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, do you know anything about the purchase of
the textbooks?
Mr. Townsend. I know about the purchase of them. I don't know what
they were. I know how they were purchased, and under what system they were
purchased.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please state that for the record?
Ml. Townsend. Well, Dr. Gary and his assistant, Miss — her name has slipped
my mind — they drew up the plan of education and put it into effect, and the
textbooks were ordered — part of them were shipped in from Honolulu and part
of them were ordered through the school board in Los Angeles, and then a rnimber
of them were secured from various other schools throughout southern Galifornia.
They were discarded school books that we were asked to go out and pick up,
and I had a letter from Dr. Gary asking me to pick up textbooks from at least
8 or 10 different communities around Gahfornia.
Mr. Steedman. How many hours a day did the Japanese children go to school?
Mr. Townsend. Six.
Mr. Steedman. Did the schools go through the high school?
Mr. Townsend. They were laying the foundation for the high school. There
was a high school to be built, but there is no high school there yet.
9056 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that the teachers tried to curry favor with
the Japanese; is that correct?
Mr. TowNSEND. Oh, yes. The teachers are all very, very friendly, and the
Japanese peoiDle are highly educated or instructed in Japanese doctrines. Many
of them are Japanese teachers and Japanese professors, and I have attended
many meetings — in fact, I have spoken at 8 or 10 meetings — where they were
discussing problems within the camp, and I have heard Japanese professors
make talks that were far superior to Dr. Gary's. And then we had about 600
university men in the camp, and many of those men have taken post-graduate
courses in Japan, and they are nearly all on the school staff, either supervisory
or otherwise, and many of them are teachers.
Mr. Steedman. Well, do you happen to know whether the Japanese language
is taught in the schools?
Mr. TowNSEND. I know that they do teach the Japanese language. When we
started over there we would not permit the paper to be printed in Japanese, but
after the schools started under Dr. Gary, he made some effort to get a part of the
paper printed in the Japanese language, and it is now part English and part
Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the name of the newspaper?
Mr. Townsend. Well, it is the Poston — it started out as the Poston News.
Now it is the Poston Chronicle, and I have a complete file of that paper, and in
that paper in many instances they definitely challenge the American ideas, and
very often I have had the Japanese part of it read to me when somebody would
say, "Did you hear what is in Japanese in the paper?" And I would have it read,
and they would discount American ideas and American standards, and usually
that part was in Japanese. I have a complete file of that paper.
Mr. Steedman. Who was responsible for the paper? Was it a Caucasian
employee?
Mr. Townsend. Yes. Mr. James — what the dickens is his first name? He is
the American man, but he didn't have anything to do with it. I will tell you whj'
I say that. Mr. James is supposed to have served as the intelligence officer.
Mr. Steedman. For what?
Mr. Townsend. For the property or for the camps, or I don't know who.
They call him and he signs himself as intelligence officer. I don't know whether
he is under the Intelligence Department or not, but he is also carried in the
heading of the paper as the editor-in-chief. But he has little to do with it and it
is totally handled by the Japanese. In other words, if something comes up,
James will say immediately, "Well, I don't have anything to do with the paper."
Mr. Steedman. Would you furnish the committee with copies of the paper?
Mr. Townsend. Oh, yes. Many of them are very worthwhile. They are in
stories, but there are many cases in there, many articles where they tell the camp
director what he is going to have to do, and so forth and so on.
Mr. Steedman. Who is in charge of the agriculture at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Mi-. Sharp, under Mr. Mathieson.
Mr. Steedman. How many men does he have working under him?
Mr. Townsend. If any Caucasians at all, he had 1 or 2, but he probably had
200 or 300 Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Was his department run efficiently?
Mr. Townsend. Run what?
Mr. Steedman. Was it run efficiently?
Mr. Townsend. No. His department was really not run. They were just
trying to get it in order. Thej^ had spent 8 months and had about 10,000 agricul-
tural men, and there was nothing done except for the little agriculture between the
barracks. So we felt that the agricultural department was rather a farce. I don't
think Mr. Sharp was much of an organizer. He was a pretty good farmer, but he
wasn't an organizer, didn't know how to handle that type of men. And Mr.
Mathieson is a political product who is far removed from having any knowledge at
all upon that subject. I don't know where he hails from, but I don't think he
would know a potato from an apple. He is that kind of a fellow. He has no idea
of agriculture. And this man Sharp is just a good, common farmer that has no
idea of putting into force any program or policy. The land is cleared, the water
is there, and the equipment, several hundred pieces of equipment. That is per-
haps in use now, I don't know, but it was sitting there for months, tractors, and.
everything else.
By the way, that story in the paper up in Denver about the kids using the
tractors to play with — did you see that article?
Mr. Steedman. No, I didn't.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9057
Mr. TowNSEND. It is true. They used the tractors until we impounded them
for pla.vthings. We finally took all the equipment away from them, and pretty
nearly blew up the camp in doing so, because all the fine equipment was just being
used as a medium of playing around the camp.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was there any produce raised around the camj) and used there?
Mr. TowNSEND. There wasn't when I left there. If there was, it was put in
there since. There should have been. The water was there and the land was
there, but Sharp didn't have any push at all, and Mr. Mathieson didn't seem to
care. The other men were not agricultural men and didn't give a darn. The
camp should be self-supporting from an agricultural standpoint.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, do you think that the camp is adequately
policed?
Mr. Townsend. I didn't get that.
Mr. Steedman. I mean by that is there a sufficient police force there to keep
order?
Mr. Townsend. They have no Caucasian police force at all. Mr. Miller is
serving as the chief of the internal security department.
Mr. Steedman.- Did they ever build a fence around the camp?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, they did.
Mr. Steedman. What was the purpose of the fence?
Mr. Townsend. The War Department ordered the camps fenced, and they
built a very elaborate fence around camp 3, and around camp 2, which was con-
trary to the Japanese ideas.
Through Mrs. Findley and Mr. Powell of the Social Service Department, they
created a great deal of agitation among the Japense and circulated petitions to
stop the fence being put in, but the War Department ordered the fence, and they
continued to put it in under contract. Then as the fence was being built the
Japanese started tearing it down. Then the paper came out with a full page
editorial asking the Japanese not to tear the fence down, that they were sure they
would have it removed.
The fence was built primarily for a stockade. It was built with 10- or 12-foot
posts and 4 or 6 wires were put on, so that it could easily be made into a con-
centration camp, which was the thought, I think. After the fence was up about
a month the Japanese started pulling the posts out and cutting the wire down, and
inside of 6 mouths the entire fence was removed around both camps. Then the
engineers went in and put in a 3-wire fence along the highway to keep the Indian
stock out.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what it cost to build that fence?
Mr. Townsend. The engineers told me they had put $100,000 into the con-
tract, in addition to 15,000 or 20,000 posts, and when they built the fence along
the highway, they built a different type of fence.
The fence was completed, however, under a sort of a lull, or, the fences around
the two camps were finished, and then they were completely taken out, every single
post and the wire, and now there is no fence around either camp. The engineers
themselves finislied the job by cleaning up the scrap wire, and they strung a new
fence down the highway.
Mr. Steedman. Was that done by private contract?
Mr. Townsend. Yes; the fence was put in by contract.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know who the contractor was?
Mr. Townsend. I think it was the CaldweU Construction Co. that built it.
I am pretty sure they had the fence contract. They built the two factories on
those camps, I think.
Mr. Steedman. Do they have offices in Los Angeles?
Mr. Townsend. I think they are either in Los Angeles or Phoenix. They are
contractors.
Mr. Townsend. Did any officials of the camp try to stop the destruction of
the Government property?
Mr. Townsend. The only official objection that I knew anything about,, and
I was much disturbed about it, because it involved my department, and I was
anxious to stop the miscellaneous handling, the promiscuous handling of the
equipment, because the equipment would not have been used if they were confined
to the camps, and it was used on these wild trips in getting out of the camps on
the various roads. So when the fence was being torn down I talked with Mr.
Head, to see if there wasn't a way of guarding ever}' roadway where the fences
were cut down, and he said, "Mrs. Findley has overstepped her rights." And he
called Mrs. Findley and Mr. Powell in and gave them the dickens for agitating
such a move with the Japs. And he told me that he was completely out of sorts
9058 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
with her. I was in his office when he called them down for interfering with the
other departments of the camps, but even after that they were tearing the fences
down until this appeal came out in the paper, and then for about 2 weeks the
fences were left alone. They were all cut to pieces, but they were left alone, and
then after that they started taking them down and the engineers came out and
started to p\ill the wires out, and finally they removed the fence. Now there is a
three-wire fence on one side of the highway, and that is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was there any salvage to the wire fence?
Mr. TowNSEND. I don't know what happened to it. 1 know that they burned
most of the posts. When they put the last fence in they brought in other posts,
4 by 4 by 10 or 12.
Mr. CosTELLO. And where is the wire? Was it used?
Mr. TowNSEND. No. They didn't use the same posts because they put in a
4-foot post and they used a different type of wire. I don't know what happened
to the wire. I don't know whether the fence company took it back, or what.
I might say that while they were building the fence they were putting in gates
at different places, and the Japanese would follow right along, and as they would
put in the posts, they would pull them out. In other words, the Japanese made
up their minds they should not be fenced in, and that is exactly the condition.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, doesn't Mr. Head have any control over the
department heads at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. The Caucasian heads?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Townsend. He is in control, he employs them, but they have no say over
their departments. He overrides any orders or regulations that they put in
effect. The Japanese will make a demand contrary to the ruling of a depart-
ment head, and it is always recognized, so the heads of the departments, the
Caucasian heads, are not actually heads. They are merely filling a place.
Mr. Steedman. I was referring to Mrs. Findley and the fence episode. How
did she get away with that?
Mr. Townsend. Miss Findley controls Mr. Head. Miss Findley is supposed
to be one of the personnel under Mr. Head, but the actual fact is that Miss
Findley tells Mr. Head what to do, and when to do it, and how to do it.
Mr. Steedman. How often did you have a conference of the section heads
when you were there?
Mr. Townsend. When I was first there we had a meeting every morning.
That was a meeting of the heads of the department, a staff meeting, but that
played out, and then we had one every week, and that played out, and then
just a few, three or four, would get together, unless something would come up,
and then they would call in a department head.
Mr. Steedman. Was this situation discussed at the meetings, the staff meet-
ings?
Mr. Townsend. At the beginning, when I first went down there, I was not
familiar with many of these irregularities and they were never discussed. The
irregularity was not discussed, but they were formulating plans, and just generali-
ties were discussed.
Mr. Steedman. Did you know a Mr. Ed Hass?
Mr. Townsend. Very well.
Mr. Steedman. What is his position?
Mr. Townsend. He is the chief counsel, and his barracks were right next to
mine. I almost slept with him for 6 months.
Mr. Steedman. What did he do as chief counsel?
Mr. Townsend. He was supposed to have had complete charge of all legal
matters within the camp area and would set the policies up for the Japs and the
Government, and at the beginning he had some very excellent ideas. But Mr.
Hass was so completely domineered by the intelligent Japanese attorneys that he
soon was not the head of the department.
Mr. Steedman. Were Japanese attorneys assigned to his department?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. As assistants?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; and some very brilliant men.
Mr. Steedman. What were they paid, do you know?
Mr. Townsend. What were they paid?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Townsend. All Jap employees under the Government regulations received
$19. The top was $19 a month.
UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9059
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, goins back to the stealing of the Government
property at Poston while you were there, about how much would you say that
the Japanese were stealing daily?
Mr. Townsend. We estimated repeatedly, and finally concluded that our
daily loss would estimate about $500. That would include lumber, eqaipment
and supplies, and subsistence.
Mr. Steedman. How much would you say was missing since the project was
started?
Mr. Townsend. We estimated about $100,000 worth of supplies had been taken
out of the stock,
Mr. Steedman. Has this loss been covered up through bookkeeping?
Mr. Townsend. I often talked to Mr. Empie and the accounting department,
how they were going to write off the losses, and a nian was sent there to approve
the condemnation of a lot of broken equipment, and so forth, and so on, and while
he was there I asked if he was going to be able to write off the losses. But he
said "No." that he didn't have anything to do with the thefts; that it would have to
be shown how it was lost, and if it was a theft, there was no way of proving it.
So I took it to the accounting department and to Mr. Empie, as to what they
were going to do. and Mr. Empie said that was one of the problems he had to
solve, he didn't know what he was going to do.
Mr. Steedman. When did he tell you that?
Mr. Townsend. When?
Mr. Steedman. Yes. When did he tell you that?
Mr. Townsend. Well, among the numerous conversations I have had with him,
all through and during the months of November and December, when we were
getting very much disturbed over the losses, and it culminated after the riot.
It was no doubt in Decembar.
Mr. Steedman. Was Mr. Empie bonded?
Mr. Townsend. He is supposed to be bonded to have charge of all of the
finances and all of the supplies and equipment in the entire area.
Mr. Steedman. How much is his bond, do you know?
Mr. Townsend. I have never learned.
Mr. Steedman. Are any of the other employees at Poston bonded?
Mr. Townsend. Yes; the paymaster; and I think the chief accountant is
bonded.
Mr. Steedman. Now, did you witness a riot at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. Townsend. It started on November 18.
Now, this that I am giving you is merely the high lights of the riot.
I think, before I read this, with your permission, I would like to make the state-
ment that as the riot progressed I dictated to Mr. Empie's secretary, Mrs. Palmer,
an hour-by-hour condition, and she was the only one in the personnel staff left
there, because we all had Japanese secretaries, and she was the only one available.
With Mr. Empie's permission I used her to keep a constant record of the state-
ments made by the Japanese, and the malicious activities, and the thefts, and the
fire, and numerous unusual things that I knew I couldn't remember. I dictated
to her for 2 or 3 days on the situation, and she filled up two or three notebooks.
But those notebooks have disappeared, and that record was not transcribed, so
this record that I am referring to now was written after the riot, and covers, as
best I can recall, a few of the incidents.
The riot started on the afternoon of November 18, 1942, and as far as being
over, they have received all of their demands and have temporarily subsided until
other demands are denied, and then probably a real riot will begin. In the words
of Project Director Wade Head, "The disturbance arose following a protest over
the arrest of two evacuees with the deadly assault of a third evacuee. A small but
well organized pro-Axis group took advantage of this situation to seize control of
the larger of the three Poston units and create a general strike."
That statement was made in my presence and was written down by Mr. Head
and supplied to the press.
Now, following that, off the record, and not written down here, the reason this
riot was permitted to continue, and, if you wish it to go on the record
Mr. Steedman. I think it had better go in the record.
Mr. Townsend. The reason the riot continued was due to the fact that the
W. R. A., the War Department, the Department of Justice, and the Indian
Service would not assume responsibility, and it put the camp management and the
9060 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Caucasian personnel in a very grave situation, because the riot Ijad grown to such
proportions that they were threatening to eliminate the Caucasian force, and the
management of no department would ask the M. P.'s the M. P. company 323,
which was on the other side of the boulevard or roadway, stationed there with
bayonets fixed and machine guns, but they couldn't get authority to come across
the highway, and the Japanese thought, of course, that they were afraid to cross
the border, and that heightened the fever a bit, and the Japanese got pretty bold,
because the Army was standing on the opposite side of the highway and nobody
would give them authority to come over, and they interpreted that as being a
matter of fear.
This riot and seizure of Government supplies .and equipm.ent is one of the most
shameful events within America during this war.
Do you want all of this?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. TowNSEND (continuing). Sham.fful because within the confines of the
United States in the State of Arizona, under any departm.ent, within a stone's
throw of the largest military training center for desert troops, an enem.y could
get away with the seizure, use, dam.aging, under m.ob rule, of Government prop-
erty, taking com.plete control away from Govermnent appointees, belittling and
lowering our flag, cursing the Government, its representatives, and holding under
siege and riot, under threat of death, for more than a week one of the largest
sendm.ilitary posts; with the poor simpleton, cowering Caucasian em.ployees
standing around like whipped children, lucky to be .spared and allowed to live
from hour to hour, with ambulance? filled with disguised soldiers with machine
guns guarding their sleep, so they would not be slaughtered or burned, as hourly
threatened.
Now, that would require an explanation. The M. P.'s were not allowed to
be in uniform on our side of the highway, so Captain Dougherty took the hospital
ambulance and mounted machine guns on it, and set the ambulance at the rear
of our Caucasian sleeping quarters, with soldiers in civilian clothes to keep the
Japanese from approaching the barracks and burning them up, as they said they
would. And we were only comfortable when those ambulances were sitting out
there. But they were not in uniform.
Now, would you rather have this read or just have it copied?
Mr. Steedman. I think we had better have it read, so as to get the full import
of it.
Mr. Townsend. This is probably a new condition to most of you within this
fine land, where this violence could happen to the Government without prose-
cution either in the civil or military or Federal courts. It seems the Japs can do
no wrong; or, are we still continuing the purchasing of peace-at-any-price policy
we have pursued for years? Soldiers near our camps have been held 30 days in
stockade confinement and fined because they have visited their wives 20 miles
away without permission. No Japanese has ever been punished for anything
since these camps opened.
If this is democracy we have so far degenerated in our conception of demo-
cratic government that it has become impossible to delegate authority; and we
must admit shamefully to the accusation of only having the potentialities of an
immense power. I rather surmise Commissioner Collier of the Indian Service
is not wholly content with the behavior of his wayward adopted children and
would welcome a way out.
By the way, that statement was made by the Japanese, that we didn't have
any power, and we only had the potentialities of a powerful nation, that we don't
even have the "guts" to put a group of men in charge so that they could control
even that situation, and so how could we expect to control a national situation,
such as the Japanese country, and they would state they would have our country
before long. I have been told that 20 times, at least; in other words, that camp
is 100 percent of the idea that Japan will have the United States in a few months.
In talking to them, tliey are very frank about it. They don't cover it up at all,
particularly the more intelligent Japanese and the military Japanese.
Now, I don't know that I mentioned it in here, but there are over 1,000 Japanese
soldiers and Japanese officers in that camp and I have talked to them and have
been told very definitely about their program, that this group of men on Terminal
Island were in that category. And they will tell you if you ask them. They
are the most indifferent fellows. If you ask them, "Were you fellows organizing
on the west coast?" they will say, "Yes; we had our program all set up." I have
asked them, "What were you going to do?" And the answer was: "As soon as
our soldiers came over, we were going to help them." They tell you right off
UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9061
that they were going to win the war. And that is the type of man that is drilling
over there almost daily in military tactics, right under our noses in that camp.
They drill them in various ways, but still drill them, and they are making soldiers
out of them, and they are hot kidding about it. They don't even presume to
hide it.
P'or instance, I can take you down to an admiral down there. He was our
chef in camp 3. I can't quite recall his name. I talked to him. I know he was
an admiral in the Japanese Navy, and he was running a fishing boat at San Pedro.
1 said to him, 'Ts it a fact that your boats were equipped for military purposes?"
He said, "Yes; all of our boats were equipped so we could convert them."
He said that all the Japanese fishermen are military men. He is a fine Jap, if
you can stomach that sort of stuff.
Mr. Steedman. Now, go ahead and give us the details about the riot.
i\Ir. TowNSEND. If you want the matter referring only to the riot, I can give
you that. I make a lot of personal comments here and so forth. If you want
to get to the riot in detail, I have that back here some place.
^Ir. Steedmax. Just give us the details with reference to it.
Mr. TowxsEXD. We were informed on the morning of November 18, 1942,
that all work would be stopped at noon. That, however, was nothing, as they
would go on a sit-down, or a real strike whenever a whim struck- them. By noon
the whole camp had taken on a holiday air, yet a seething mass of curious Japs
paraded past the administration offices. All of the regular work was without
workers and several thousand had gathered around the main store and jail area.
This was not unusual, as many of the most important events were held there.
Soon after a gradual beginning cheers and cat-calls and loud statements of defiance
and against the administration could be heard. Then the Japanese flag appeared
and the American flag was absent from man}- places.
Mr. Steedman. Pardon me. Where was the Japanese flag?
Mr. Townsend. It was put on a flagpole right in front of the jail, over the
main assembly center of this riot. That was in front of the jail. The jail was
near the big commissary, and in front of the commissary across the road was an
open area between the irrigation ditch and the jail, covering, oh, approximately
2 or 3 acres, and they surrounded the jail and congregated in that open space.
Mr. Steedmax. Was there a flagpole there?
Mr. Towxsexd. The flagpole was on the commissarj^, and they put up their
own flagpole in the center of their activities.
Mr. Steedman. They put up a Japanese flag?
Mr. TowNSEXD. Yes. The Japanese flag flew there for 2 weeks, and our
flag — all the flags at the camp were taken down. The big flag was located at
the administration center. That flag was under the control of the chief janitor
of the administration offices.
Mr. Steedman. Was he Japanese?
Mr. TowNSEXD. Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Did he take it down?
j\Ir. TowxsEND. I don't know who took it down. I don't know that. Then
we Caucasians in the administration offices decided that the flag was going to
be flown at the administration offices and they said that if we put it up, they
would take it down. We wanted to see them do it, and we put the flag up.
Every morning we fellows at the office put our flag up and took it down at night.
But the Japanese flag, of course, was flown at other places in the camp. The
administration flag was the onlj' one that stayed up, and we insisted that it
stay up. We put it out on a wire, and it looked like we were going to lose, because
Mr. Evans said he didn't believe it was worth the battle to keep it up. And I
said, and some of the other fellows said, "That flag is going to continue to fly
as long as we are on the job."
Mr. Steedman. Continue.
Mr. Townsend. Wood and supplies for a night rally were being assembled.
Beds, blankets, food and all m.anner of supplies gradually piled up. Then
thousands joined in the Japanese anthem. In the early afternoon it was apparent
we were in for trouble. It was learned that the F. B. I. was about to remove
two evacuees held on a felony charge of an attempt to murder. They were part
of the goon squad or Hitler's gestapo that had put more than a dozen in the hos-
pital for helping the F. B. I.
By midafternoon we began to take an inventory of just what the conditions
were and m_ade arrangements for an assault. Just a few days prior to the mob
taking over we had ordered all trucks in^pounded during the night on the military
side of the highway. As we had been informed they would keep the trucks during
9062 UN-ALIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
this siege, I made a tour through the mob with my dispatcher and took the num-
bers of the trucks, as far as it was possible, as they soon started to cover the
numbers and otherwise made it very difficult. There were 52 trucks there then
and m.ore coming. During this tour I was threatened and called everything in
the calendar. Upon three occa-ions threats and attempts were ro,ade to turn
over m.y car and several groups made passes to fulfill threats of every nature.
They were then violent but had not found a good leader. The spirit of the mob
spread through the administration offices. All help walked out. Caucasian mess
halls were without cooks or supplies. Schools closed, tb.e hospital was ordered
to close by the m.ob, but remained open against orders. They bad taken over
warehouses, supplies, office records they wanted, and, in fact, everything but the
Caucasian sleeping barracks, without linens or service, and at times the private
offices.
The head of our local internal security department, or the infernal impurities
department, as we called it, Mr. Miller, chief of police to you, was more useless
and helpless than ever and had greater respect for his gangster policemen than
ever. These Jap policemen were part of the city trained gangsters that helped
enforce the rough stuff around camp, creating a large part of the bad government.
On the morning of the second day a committee came to my office with the daily
orders to obey, or else. The spokesman, one of the always present recognized
leaders that kept the trail busy into the director's office, stated, "Beginning today
we will permit the garbage trucks, mail trucks, milk trucks, and under our han-
dling, the subsistence trucks, to operate."
Mr. Step^dman. Who was that?
Mr. TowNSEND. Gosh, one of the Japanese. One Japanese name is the same as
another. I know him very well and have his name in the records some place, but
I couldn't tell you.
Mr. CosTELLO. Could you obtain it from your records?
Mr. TowNSEND. Oh, yes. I know him very well. He was one of my most
difficult men, and he is one of the army officers that I have referred to. I was in
the offices and he was there with his steward. He had 8 or 10 men that just stayed
in the administration offices all the time, and he was one of the men that we thought
was loyal up until this time, and he was one of the leaders of the riot. As a matter
of fact, the most loyal men were the agitators and leaders of the riot.
Mr. Steedman. You mean, loyal up until the riot?
Mr. Townsend. Up until the riot. They were the ones we considered our
loyal people.
Mr. Steedman. From your experience with the Japanese at Poston, do you
think there is any way of telling a loyal Japanese from one that is dislo3-al?
Mr. Townsend. There are no loyal Japanese when there is an emergency on.
As long as it is convenient and profitable and proper, they are loyal Japanese, but
when an emergency arises and Japan is, taken into consideration, there are no
loyal Japanese, so far as I have been able to determine. And I can go farther: If
you find one that you think is loyal, and they are intelligent enough to continue
with their loyalty, when you dig into their background, you find the}^ are Japanese
agents. And we found that to be true in many instances over there, after we got
started finding out who was who.
I will continue with this statement, the statement of this committee spokesman :
"All others — all other trucks can not move. We will take care of supplies from
the warehouses, as we have taken them over and are in possession now. We have
also taken over the gasoline for the cars and trucks in our possession. There will
be no railroad cars unloaded, no office work, part of the mess halls and crews will
work, but only under our orders. If you have any requests, we will be glad to
consider them."
I had plenty to say, but could not get the support of the project director or his
associate in charge at this time. Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin had gone to Salt Lake
City. The responsibility had fallen to John Evans, third in command.
I appeared in Mr. Evans' office and told him I had been told what was to happen
within the camp with the supplies and equipment, and asked him what he thought
I should do in the matter.
.\nd he said, "What can you do in the matter, but let them do as they want to
do? There is nothing we can do, unless we start a battle, and we don't want to
do that now."
I informed this committee that 35 cars of freight had accumulated at Parker,
and unless it was unloaded our supplies would have to be diverted, elsewhere.
They asked how many men I wanted, and I stated 100. They called for 100
from the mob, and I took them in trucks to the railhead.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9063
Just at this point, when this group of 100 men started up from the main body
of the mob, and I started across from the administration building to the motor
pool, which was opposite the administration building, east, everybody thought
that they were after me, and the M. P.'s thought that i was being trailed, because
these Japanese were following me. These bo\^s are all military boys, and when
thoy came after me, they came in a wedge-shape, and there were 100 in the gang,
and I was at the head of the wedge, and the M. P.'s thought I was being driven
by this mob when I was headed toward the motor pool. And, of course, the
M. P.'s fixed their bayonets and prepared for a light. And I got over where the
guards were, because the M. P.'s were guarding the motor pool, and I told them
it was all right because we were taking these men over to the warehouse and then
attention ceased. But at that moment the whole camp thought something was
doing, because j'ou will remember that the supplies and equipment in my position
were in a vital spot during this seizure, and I was pretty much disturbed over the
fact they had taken possession of my stuff. I considered the warehouses and
equipment and everything else as under my department, but I couldn't get any
cooperation to do a darn thing. They wouldn't give me the authority to move,
because they said if they did there would be bloodshed, and they wouldn't start
it, and I didn't like it.
Mr. CosTELLO. How long were Mr. Gelvin and Mr. Head absent during this
period?
Mr. TowNSEXD. Thej^ came back immediateh" after they got them on the tele-
phone. They were out about 3 days. But when they came back, it didn't make
any difference, and they didn't stop the strike. The strike continued for a week
or 10 days after the}' got there.
Now, after arriving — that is at the railhead — they said they would unload only
food and subsistence. They then returned to the camp — they wouldn't unload
anything else; they refused — they then returned to the camp and I issued a bulletin
then and there to the effect, "No work, no eats." This bulletin also covered a
guard around the warehouses, but I was overruled by Mr. Empie and severely
criticized by the administration for being so harsh and not conferring with them
before putting out such a bulletin.
Earher in the day-a car of delicious apples had been unloaded by Indian workers,
but trucked to the Camp by Jap drivers. Now, those Jap drivers were our Indian
mess hall drivers. They didn't go out the first day or two. Those Japs were
our loyal Japs. They served the Indian mess hall that was in the city of Parker
for the Indian Service, which is right at Parker, just a mile from the heart of the
city. These Japs got these apples out and the Japs said they would take them
down to the warehouse. That is how these Japs happened to be driving.
One load of 75 boxes were delivered direct to the mob, and later the entire
carload, with all other fruits, were taken from the refrigerator in the warehouse
district. Cases of milk were dumped and cartons of milk thrown at everyone
on the highwa\^ and around the camp.
Now that condition came about because the milk truck came in, and the
Japanese met the milk truck. It was driven in by truck and trailer from the
Golden State Dairy, and the driver was in the habit of taking the milk directly
to the warehouses. They met the milk truck and jumped on the truck and
diverted it.
Mr. Steedmax. Was there a white man driving the truck?
Mr. Townsend. Yes ; the Golden State Dairy delivery man, driving a refriger-
ator truck. He refused to drive the truck over to the group, so they started to
unload the truck, and did unload the truck and started to throw it out. I went
into the dispatcher's office, and there was a carton of milk thrown through the
window.
Why, gentlemen, they were just in a frenzy, but they didn't have a leader. If
they had had a leader, there would have been a lot of bloodshed. They were just
a miscellaneous group, a wild, unorganized group, doing anything they wanted to.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not this milk later was paid for?
Mr. TowN'SEXD. Oh, yes; because it was delivered to the camp. That rnatter
came up, but we were wrong to question it, because the milk was delivered
through the guard, and it was our duty to see that this man was properly protected,
and if we couldn't control our angle, he couldn't help it. He was lucky to get out
of there with his truck.
Mr. Steedmax. The Golden State Dairies were reimbursed for the milk?
9064 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. TowNSEND. oil, yes. We paid the regular milk price for the regular
shipment, you bet. We had to, due to the fact that they had delivered the milk
into the camp, which was on their contract. If it had been taken outside, we
probably would not have had to.
Mr. Steedman. When the milk came into the confines of Poston, it became
Government property?
Mr. TowNSEND. Yes. And that was not the only occasion. The milk came
in every night during this riot, and the rioters took the trucks, and the ice cream,
and other supplies that came into camp, took them right over to their lines.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Head ever instigate any investigation to determine
who destroyed the Government property in this case?
Mr. TowNSEND. No. They asked rpe to sign some sheets in blank, that they
were going to fill in showing certain property was destroyed. I said, "I won't
sign anything of that kind at all." He said, "Somebody has got to sign it."
T think' the Government has a form, a destruction form, or whatever the title
may be, that shows — a form showing that certain property was destroyed under
certain conditions.
I said, "You have no way of determining the amount of what you are going to
fill in and I am not going to sign anything until we have taken an inventory and
are going to determine what will be put in the form." So I don't know what
happened to it. But there was no effort made, other than the gasoline report,
and Mr. Head now even denies there was a riot, by the way.
Mr. Steedman. Continue.
Mr. TowNSEND. As a matter of fact, Mr. Don Eddy, the representative of a
very well-established concern in the Nation — you may know him — made a call
upon Mr. Head to make some inquiries about the riot onlj' about 3 weeks ago,
and Mr. Head, Mr. Gelvin, and Mr. Evans sat in the office and told Mr. Eddy
that there never had been a riot, that there never had been any disturbance in
that camp. And Eddy came up to me in the Indian reservation and said, "Will
you tell me what kind of blankety-blaiik cusses they are? We have the records
in the office, and those three men looked me square in the eye and told me there
had never been a disturbance in that camp, and no riot."
Mr. Steedman. At that time, may I ask who was the commanding officer of
the M. P.'s at Poston?
Mr. TowNSEND. Captain Dougherty.
Mr. Steedman. What is his full name? Do you know?
Mr. Townsend. No; I don't think I ever heard his first name; and the M. P.'s
were not at fault in any respect. They were ready, willing, and able to corral
that thing. When Colonel Alain and other military officers came in, they were
ready, and they ran a machine gun company up and stationed them up at Parker
to help settle this riot, but they were never given orders, and after Mr. Head came
in and met the demands that the Japs made, and it isn't over with yet — the strike
is over, but they still have control, and the Japs are giving orders. That is the
reason I am not there now. I wouldn't take orders from them.
Mr. Steedman. You may continue.
Mr. Townsend. During the next few days things were wild and one thing
after another took place with no effort to prevent these dangerous and irregular
happenings. One of the most disturbing things was the removal of our flags from
all parts of the camp and the need of our Caucasians putting up the large flag at
the office, under threats it would be removed, with all replaced by the "Rising
Sun."
Loudspeakers, stolen from the warehouse, had been installed, and during day
and night the Japanese national anthem was heard through the length and breadth
of the camp, with wild cheers and loud demonstrations toward setting fire to the
whole camp, which they had threatened to do if the military forces were brought
in, or crossed the highway. That is the way they put it.
I had succeeded in getting an M. P. guard on the motor pool in the military
zone where more than 200 additional pieces of equipment had been assembled.
At 9 o'clock, in front of the Caucasian barracks, the chief of the fire depart-
ment and his assistant — the chief of the fire department, Mr. Fein, and his assist-
ant, Mr. Woodhouse, were accosted by a group of Japanese policemen, and a fight
started because the fire department car had been driven into a part of the camp.
It was necessary for more«than a dozen Caucasians with pea shooters to go out
and stop the attempt made by the police department to beat up the fire chief
and his first assistant. This "created a considerable disturbance, and it was
thought it would be necessary to move the Caucasian personnel over to the mili-
tary quarters.
UX-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9065
About 12 o'clock midnight on the third day of mob control about 200 of the
mob advanced to this motor pool, where they reached the highway across from
the pool. They were halted bj- the M. P., and advised they were not allowed
to cross the highway. They started to move forward, and the M. P. fired over
their heads. His orders were to fire over their heads and then into them. He
was at once supported by another M. P. with a machine gun. The mob that had
advanced in regular" military wedge formation stopped, and in a few minutes
the entire M. P. company was there in trucks with fixed bayonets ready for
action. The Japs retreated.
That shot had more to do with the advancetnent of good government than
anything else that had ever been done in this camp. Standing behind the M. P.,
seeing the determined look and the immediate response of his buddies, all heavilv
armed, and the angry mob facing their first set-back, defiant and ugly but still
without a leader, made things look pretty near a crisis.
This is off the record.
Mr. Steedman. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. TowNSEND (continuing). The shot was the alarm for the M. P. company
to appear, and they put the highway under solid guard, and the Japs reluctantly
backed up.
I would like to say too: That the Japs are not cowards and I was surprised that
they did not advance and be killed for their cause. I have been asked numbers of
times there, "Why don't you kill us? It is easier than to convince us."
This 323d Military Police Company deserves a great deal of credit, although they
were not permitted to do a great deal. They were alert and more than willing to
settle this riot from the minute it started. Under Captain Dougherty and an
able corps of officers they had the matter well in hand and if any fault exists, it is
with their superiors, who should have had an arrangement with the War Reloca-
tion Authority. That mob or riot out of hand was their baby ajid not left to a
few inexperienced, frightened men up against their first real problem.
About the fifth day we were all beginning to become alarmed over the safety of
our families, and they were getting pretty nervous and threadbare. No arrange-
ments had been made to evacuate them, even though things got to that stage.
Threat after threat of violence kept coming from one source after another. I had
received 15 oral and written threats. Many of the Caucasians had left with their
families, who had been confined to their barracks.
On the fourth day, in conversation with the F. B. I. agents, they advised me
they were leaving, as it was useless for them to remain and risk their necks, as
they were getting nowhere and the idea seemed to be to give the Japs everything
they wanted, regardless.
Mr. Steedman. Do vou recall the names of the F. B. I. agents who told vou
that?
Mr. TowxsEXD. Xo: I haven't those names. I knew those two fellows quite
well. They were in the next barracks to me. Those men were there, and the
sheriff was there, and other F. B. I. men had been there. Oh, I omitted some-
thing that might be of interest to you. We might be off the record for a minute.
Mr. Steedman. Let's put it on the record.
Mr. TowNSEND. All right.
Priol- to the breaking out of the mob, a delegation of eight F. B. I. men had been
in the camp, working on certain violence that had caused a number of Japanese
to be put in the hospital. Their car left the guard gate at 8 o'clock, and at 8:15
the goon squad went into the barracks of one of the Japanese informants that had
been working with the F. B. I. and the young man being absent, this goon squad
beat up his mother and father to a point where the}'' were not expected to live,
breaking the arm and ankles of the father, and breaking both arms and frac-
turing the skull of the mother, and bruising her in nearh- every portion of her
body.
Mr. CcsTELLo. Do you have the names of those Japanese?
Mr. TowNSEND. I have in the records some place.
Mr. CosTELLO. How long did they remain in the hospital?
Mr. TowNSEND. I went in to see them the following morning after this had
happened, or, I went in the next evening, and the next morning or about midday
the following day there were other victims put in the hospital, and these people
had disappeared.
Mr. CosTELLo. In 2 days they had disappeared from the hospital?
Mr. TowNSEND. Disappeared from the hospital.
Mr. CosTELLo. Did you ever see them afterward at the camp?
9066 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. TowNSEND. No; I never saw them, and the riot followed soon after that,
because this squad, this goon squad, went out and wanted to beat up everybody
that had given any information to these F. B. I. men.
Mr. CosTELLo. If there was a death at the camp, then how would the burials
be handled?
Mr. TowNSEND. The doctor signs the death certificate, and the undertaker
is from Yuma. I can't recall his name, but he takes the body and takes it down
to the crematory, unless the bodies are shipped out. Very frequently the Japs
have shipped them out.
Mr. CosTELLo. The undertaker handles the cremation?
Mr. TowNSEND. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. In a Government-build crematory?
Mr. TowNSEND. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Does he keep a record or does the camp keep a record of the
cremations?
Mr. TowNSEND. No; he keeps the records. He bills the project director every
month. He was complaining to me once about being several thousands of doUars
in arrears and wondering 'what in the heck he could do to get his money.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is he allowed to conduct any cremations of persons other than
those from the camps?
Mr. TowNSEND. I have never heard of any; only just the Japanese within the
camp.
Mr. CosTELLO. The crematory is exclusively used for the personnel in the camp?
Mr. TowNSEND. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Continue with your story of the, riot, please.
Mr. TowNSEND (continuing). On the fourth day in conversation with the
Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, they advised me they were leaving, as it
was useless for them to remain and risk their necks, and getting no where, and
the idea seemed to be to give the Japs everything they wanted, regardless. .
I stated to these two F. B. I. operators that they need not kid me, that they
wer^- not going to leave the camp, and they informed me they were definitely on
their way out, and they left. I know they left, because I saw them get in their
car and go.
As tension increased, and everyone was at the breaking point, I made a demand
upon the Jap leaders to produce the keys to the gasoline pumps. My car and
others had been drained. I received them and put the pumps under Caucasian
guard and operation, keeping the keys to one 1,000-gaUon tank for emergency pur-
poses, releasing two 2,000-gallon tanks for normal uses. The mob had used
5,000 gallons of gasoline the first 2 days.
It required considerable persuasion and trouble to get these keys. Later in the
day, the acting director, John Evans, through fear of further arousing the Japs,
instructed chief administrative officer, Mr. Empie, whom I was directly under, to
order me to surrender these other keys to be turned back to the Japs. They
had already taken charge of the pumps again. I told them both to go to hell, as
I felt a certain responsibility toward the women and children and would hold the
tank of gasoline for their evacuation if it came to that point.
In attendance at this stormy session was Colonel Main of the United States
Army, who had been sent there to settle the riot. He was denied this right, or
was not given an\' opportunity to take anj^ action with the angry Japs. He asked
the officials assembled why we did not at once recover the seized Government
property being illegally held, and stated if he could get orders he would take it,
but would expect to leave around 600 dead Japs on the ground in so doing. When
told to let things take their course
Mr. CosTELLO. Was Mr. Head or Mr. Gelvin at the camp at that time?
Mr. TowNSEND. No; they hadn't arrived. This was around the third or
fourth day. But Colonel Main had his staff there, and, boy, was he boiling.
In this report I didn't want to state many of the things that took place, because
some of these fellows were just as hot about it was I was. We had a pretty near
battle there. I told Evans — or, first, I told Mr. Empie to go to hell.
He said, "Well, do you mean to tell me you can tell me to go to hell?" I said,
"Yes." He said, "Why don't you tell Evans he can go to hell too?" I said,
"That is exactly what I will do." So he said, "Come on."
So they had the meeting with Colonel Main, and Empie walked in, and he was
boiling, and he didn't know whether to go in or not, but he said, "Mr. Evans,
]\Ir. Townsend has some things to tell you."
I said, "I told Mr. Empie to tell you to go to hell. I was going to, and I told
Mr. Empie to tell you, and now I am telling you myself, that you can't have the
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9067
key to the other 1.000 gallons of gasoline." I said, "You may not feel any
respon.^^ibility toward the Caucasian people in this administration center, but I do,
and I am going to keep enough gasoline to evacuate these white people in these
camps if it is necessary."
And Kvans is a big Indian type of guy, and he got out of his chair and walked to ■
the window, and we had quite a little session, and finally he sat down. I said,
"That is the way it stands, and I don't have anj' right to turn those pumps over
to the Japanese."
He said, "Mr. Townsend, we arc trying to avoid bloodshed, and we think we are
doing the best we can until things take place."
Then Colonel Main spoke up — oh, by the way, Mr. Empie's assistant spoke
up, Mr. Smith. He was the assistant under Mr. Empie that took care of the
business, and he said, "Townsend is right." He said, "There has got to be
somebody here that will try to take care of this situation, and that is his depart-
ment, and I am for him." And Colonel Main said, "Townsend, why in the world
don't you go down and do something?"
I said, "All right. Colonel, if you have the authority to tell me, I will be the
first man to go."
And Colonel Main said to Evans, "What about it?" He said, "This has reached
a point where I am disgusted. I had just as well leave." He said, "If I go down
to take it over," he said, "well, there will be five or six hundred Japs on the
ground dead, and that is what ought to be done." And Main got up disgusted,
and his staff got up and went out with him, and I didn't see him after that.
When told to let things take their course to save bloodshed, he left the meeting
with his staff in disgust, and said, "If he could get no- cooperation from the local
management he could see no reason for lianging around, but, by the looks of
things, he or someone would have to be called back to settle things."
After another night of hell, the loud bellering of the Japanese national anthem
and the cheering and threats, my wife with others agreed to leave for their homes,
so about noon I left with a carload. We were informed when leaving that if I
returned that I would regret it, as I was on the top of the blacklist of Caucasians
that had to go. I returned in a few daA\s, finding things wearing out, but not
settled in any measure, other than finding the Japs in a stronger position, having
won most of their demands. Many near clashes occurred over the transportation
that was being used by special permit from the chief administrator, under guard.
The mob continued with almost entire control for another week, while the
F. B. I., the Indian Department, and the War Department, who were in constant
contact by special through wire from Washington, wrangled over jurisdiction and
who was to assume responsibility.
Finally, after added numerous victories and vicious demands, the release of
both prisoners was ordered by the camp director. He had agreed to release one
of them, and, of course, at this period ]\Ir. Head and all of them were back — they
were back long before this, however — he had agreed to release one of them, but
that would not satisfy the mob, so as a means of satisfying them and in an effort
to avoid bloodshed, he released the two, thereby compounding a felony. If they
were not guilty, they should not have been arrested and held, and if they were
guilty, nothing under the sun should have released them without trial and regular
legal procedure. The sheriff of Yuma County, T. H. Newman, had arrived, but
he did not care to remove the prisoners. Up to date there has b?on no prose-
cution for any offense or for any outlawry or crime in any of the camps. On the
Poston battle fronts the Japs have won ail battles up to January 1943.
Mr. Stkedm.^n. Mr. Townsend, I would like to develop at this point somathing
about your handling of the automobiles and trucks at Poston. You were to
have had cliarge of all of the automobiles and trucks at Poston?
Mr. Townsend. Yes, sir; all motor equipment.
Mr. Steedman. Then the project manager ordered you to leave the trucks
and tractors in the custody of the Japs for 24 hours a day?
Mr. Townsend. When I went to the camp the procedure was that all equip-
ment was in the hands of the Japanese 24 hours a day.
Mr. Steedman. Was that later changed?
Mr. Townsend. At a later date. I fought for 2 months to get a written
consent, and when I got the written consent — I might say it was customary for
yir. Head. Mr. Gelvin, and Mr. Evans to give verbal orders and then counter-
mand them, and all of mv recjuests were made in writing, and I finally got the
signatures of Mr. Head, Mr. Gelvin. Mr. Empie, and Mr. Evans to imi)ound
the equipment, and as soon as the equipment was impounded, certain demands
9068 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
were made upon them and they tried to lift the order, and I refused to release
the equipment unless we all agreed upon it, to countermand the other arrange-
m.ent.
Mr. Steedman. How many so-called pleasure cars did you have at Poston?
Mr. TowNSEND. About 70 or 80.
Mr. Steedman. Were they all owned by the Government?
Mr. TowNSEND. All Government sedans.
Mr. Steedman. Government sedans. Were these automobiles used by the
Japanese at night?
Mr. TowNSEND. Exclusively.
Mr. Steedman. What did they use them for?
Mr. Townsend. Pleasure, running around the camp in the remote areas, for
scooters, and playing around, as would be expected.
Mr. Steedman. Was there a curfew at the camp?
Mr. Townsend. Never has been a curfew at the camp.
Mr. Steedman. What percentage of the equipment was used after working
hours.
Mr. Townsend. More than 50 percent.
Mr. Steedman. Did the director finally agree to a pooling arrangement of the
equipment?
Mr. Townsend. He did.
Mr. Steedman. That was after about 2 months?
Mr. Townsend. After about 2 months we got the equipment pooled on the
military side of the highway.
Mr. Steedman. You may continue.
Mr. Townsend. By pooling the trucks, we saved 1,775 gallons of gasoline in
the first weekend, Saturday night, Sunday, and Sunday night, and continued to
save 1,000 gallons per day, by actual pump records. That is by the trucks that
were impounded. Then later on, if you want to bring in the cars, we did the same
thing and saved 300 gallons a day by taking the cars away from them.
Mr. Steedman. While you were at Poston did the Japanese who were interned
there make automobile trips to visit their relatives and friends in the Midwest
and East?
Mr. Townsend. They did, with written orders bj- Mr. Head, to supply them
with transportation.
Mr. Steedman. What w'as the reason for these trips?
Mr. Townsend. Any excuse. Sickness in the families or for the purpose of
looking after a sold automobile that payments had not been made on, being
unable to make collections on crop sales or various agricultural ideas, and for
any miscellaneous excuse the Japanese were allowed to take Government equip-
ment and make trips up to 2,500 miles, using Government credit cards.
Mr. CosTELLO. All their own cars had been left at their homes by the evacuees?
Mr. Townsend. Oh, yes. They didn't have their own cars, except those
which we leased from them, you see.
Mr. CosTELLO. And they used the Government equipment?
Mr. Townsend. They used to use them, these big sedans, and drive them into
these metropolitan centers out there, with soldiers sitting out there in the desert
and seeing a load of Japanese going by in the big Government cars and giving
the boys a big horselaugh. It was terrible, and is still going on, but not quite
so viciously, because the camp has been under quarantine.
Mr. Steedman. You say that some of the cars traveled as high as 2,500 miles.
Did the speedometers indicate that when they returned?
Mr. Townsend. Yes. In starting them on the trip it was usual to give them
a credit card and to keep a complete record, so we took the speedometer reading
upon their leaving and upon their returning.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that the records at Poston will show or indicate
these trips that were made back into the Midwest and East?
Mr. Townsend. I have in my possession a great many of the records, particu-
larly the authorizations issued by Mr. Head or his associates for these trips.
Mr. Steedman. Will you furnish those records to the committee?
Mr. Townsend. Be very glad to, and other records there should be complete,
showing all of the miscellaneous travel, both by Caucasians and others.
Mr. Steedman. Would those records be in the dispatcher's office?
Mr. Townsend. Supposed to be.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Townsend, how do you explain the control which the
Japanese have, or apparently have, over Mr. Head and the various staff members
at Poston?
UN-A]VIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9069
Mr. Tow-NSEND. Well, my interpretation was that at the beginning Mr. Head
was operating under the W. R. A. orders, and the orders of Mr. Collier of the
Indian Agency, that they had started an experiment and that they were en-
deavoring through the Indian Agency to give the Japanese the same freedom and
the kind careful attention that they were giving the Indians, believing that they
were a mild group of American civizens.
Later on, Mr. Head had responded to so many unusual demands that the
Japanese found tliat he was easily influenced and it gradually grew to the point
where they made ridiculous demands, and Head started coinplving with them
until he got himself so deeply involved with the Japanese tha't he could not
retract. And now there have been so many irregular things happen that I\Ir.
Head and his associates are completely involved in, misconduct, to the point
where there is no hope of correction — disloyal misconduct. I think that is the
most disloyal set-up that the American Government has ever witnessed.
Mr. Steedman. You think that they are sympathetic toward the Japanese?
Mr. TowNSEND. One-hundred percent, and particularly through the school
system. The sympathy toward the Japanese of the social service department is
the greatest detriment down there. The school system is allied with the social
service, and the two together are a fearful influence, and Mr. Head — well, he is
not a man capable of standing up against it. His stamina is lacking, and he has
never had any experience in the line of handling this vicious type of people,
although it is true that he is a very fine, polished gentleman.
Mr. Steedman. What recommendation would you make to improve the condi-
tions at Poston?
Mr. TowNSEND. Put it entirely under militar}- control, and when the Japanese
are told to do something, see that they do it, instead of laughing at the instructor,
the management, and the Government.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please recite, briefly, the circumstances surrounding
your resignation?
Mr. TowNSEND. On December 20 a meeting was called by Mr. Empie's per-
sonnel, stating that the Japanese were to take over the control of the camp. At
that meeting Mr. Palmer, the timekeeper and not the procurement officer, asked
if he meant that we were to take orders from the Japanese.
Mr. Empie said he did not expect to take orders from the Japanese, and if any
of the rest of us were worried, it would be a good.plan for us to leave.
After the meeting, I asked Mr. Empie if it was his understanding that we were
to accept orders and the entire department were to go under the leadership of the
Japanese. He said, "It looks that way."
I asked him if that was the W. R. A. policy, or what made him think that we
were to be under their direction.
He said, "Well, that is the project director's orders."
And I said, "Mr. Empie, I can never take orders from the Japanese, and you
know it."
And he said, "I can't either."
So in 2 or 3 days — I had been licensing the drivers under the W. R. A. order,
I had been issuing licenses, and we agreed to qualify only certain members, and
I had to go into many battles "with the Japanese over not issuing drivers' licenses,
and inasmuch as my entire staff had gone, due to the riot, I was left in complete
charge of the motor equipment, and during the search of trying to get drivers
for the equipment and adjusting the riot conditions, we were constantly in a
turmoil in my office. On the 23d of December Mr. Gelvin called me in and said
that he realized that I was not willing to comply with the orders of putting my
department under the Japanese control and taking orders from them. And I
said, "Xo; I am not."
Se he said, "Well, we are going to have to make a change."
I said, "Well, that is ])erfectly proper." So he gave me a very nice letter,,
and my time continued until Januar}- 15, and in the letter, which you may have,
he stated that my services were very highly appreciated, that he had found
that I had worked to the interests of saving all that could be saved for the Gov-
ernment, and the only thing that they found was that my relationship with the
Japanese was not friendly. And I assure you now it was not friendly, and I
am not the kind of a fellow that can see that sort of thing continue and not be
interested in making a correction, because I think it is the most un-American,
the most disloyal, the most extravagant thing that we have ever seen in this
country, particularly during the war period, and we ought not to take it ea.sily,
not only at this time, but in the future. After the war is over, to have to deal
6-'62f! — 13 — vol. 1") 16
9070 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
with that arrogant bunch of Japs, who have put it over on every type of a Gov-
ernment agency, well, they are going to be a very difficult people to deal with
after the war.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any further questions, Mr. Costello?
Mr. Costello. No. I think that prettj^ well completes the picture on that
situation.
Mr. Steedman. I think that that is about all.
The Chairman. We appreciate very much your giving us your statement,
Mr. Townsend. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 5 p. m., the hearing in the above entitled matter was adjourned.)
• Mr. Costello. The committee v^ill stand adjom-ned until 10 o'clock
tomorrow morning.
(Thereupon, at 4 p. m., the hearing adjourned until 10 a. m,,
Friday, June 11, 1943.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIV-
ITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
FRIDAY, JUNE 11, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to
Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Avgeles, Calif.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States
Post Office and Court House, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon, John M.
Costello, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, and Hon.
Herman P. Eberharter.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee,
acting counsel.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. I believe your first
witness today is Mr. James.
Mr. Steedman. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF NORRIS W. JAMES, FORMERLY PRESS AND IN-
TELLIGENCE OFFICER, COLORADO RIVER WAR RELOCATION
PROJECT, POSTON, ARIZONA.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Costello. Will you state your full name to the reporter?
Mr. James. IN orris W. James.
Mr. Costello. Will you also state your occupation?
Mr. James. My profession is newspaperman.
Mr. Costello. Do you wish to proceed with the questioning, Mr.
Steedman?
Mr. Steedman. Wliat is your present address?
Mr. James. 215 Churchill Avenue, Palo Alto.
Mr. Steedman. Where were you bom?
Mr. James. San Francisco, Calif.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. James. February 19, 1904.
Mr. Steedman. Where did you attend school?
Mr. James. I attended grade schools in San Francisco, Palo Alto
High School, and Stanford University. I hold an A. B. degree from
Stanford University, class of 192G. The A. B. is in political science.
I also studied law at Stanford and took courses in far eastern history
under Prof. Yamato Ichihashi.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please give the committee a resume of the
most important positions that you have held?
Mr. James. Following my graduation from Stanford, I was em-
ployed by Peninsular Newspapers, Inc., operators of three daily
newspapers on the San Francisco peninsula.
9071
9072 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
In approximately September of 1928 I accepted a position with th&
Honolulu Star-Builetin, Honolulu, Hawaii. After serving with the
Star-Bulletin for a few months, I was assigned to Hilo, Hawaii, where
I was on the staff of the Hilo Daily Tribune-Herald.
I .returned to the mamland of the United States in January 1930.
I then accepted a position with the Miller-Freeman Publications
of Seattle, Wash., m their San Francisco organization — that is the
San Francisco office. This is a business magazine organization^
publishing some 18 business magazines on the Pacific coast.
I was editor of their retail publications — editorial director of their
retail publications, including Furniture Reporter, a monthly magazine
going to the retail home furnishing merchants and the dry-goods
stores that handled home furnishings.
In 1933 with Mr. George F. Morrell, I organized the Western Retail
News Service, operating in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Portland, and
Seattle, publishers of two semimonthly business magazines — Furni-
ture Retailing and Appliance Retailing.
I operated these in approximately 1936 and then went back to the
Peninsular organization, of which Mr. Morrell was president when we
disbanded these business magazines.
I served with the Peninsular newspapers practically continuously
until February of 1942, when I was approached by the War Reloca-
tion Authority to accept a position in the San Francisco office.
I accepted that position on April 18, 1942, and on May 7, having
applied for the position at the Colorado River War Relocation Center
as press and intelligence officer and I was assigned there and arrived
at Poston on approximately May 8.
I served continuously at Poston until May 15, when I resigned to
join the armed forces.
Mr. Eberharter. May 15, 1943?
Mr. James. May 15, 1943, yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. At this point
Mr. James. Pardon me, may I go into a few other things such a*
my knowledge of the Japanese people?
Mr. Steedman. I was going to inquire into that at this point.
Air. James. Would you want to do that by questioning?
Mr. Steedman. Yes. I would like to ask you when you were in
Hawaii did you come into contact with Japanese organizations in the
islands?
Mr. James. I did. I met Maj. Joseph Stilwell, who was then in
charge of counter-intelligence for the Territory of Hawaii. That was
in February — February 29, I am sure it was. And out of a casual
friendship with him I learned quite a bit about the overseas organiza-
tions that Imperial Japan had maintained in Hawaii and in this
country.
Subsequent to my return to the mainland, I attended frequent
meetings of the Japan Society of America in San Francisco, the
Japanese-American Citizens' League and through contacts with the
Office of Naval Intelligence and friends of mine who are employed
there, was able to keep up a fairly clear picture of what was going on.
Mr. Steedman. Have you made a study of Japanese subversive
organizations, such as the Central Japanese Association and the
various Ken or Prefectural groups?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9073
Mr. James. I have. I am acquainted with Kenjin Kai, the so-
called Prefectural associations which are somewhat like the State
associations that you find here in southern CaHfornia — Iowa Society,
Indiana Society, and so forth.
I am also acquainted with the Junior Kenjin Kai, which is a horse
of a different color; a group of younger ones who have been, in my
estimation, subject to the indoctrination of Imperial Japanese repre-
sentatives of Imperial Japan.
In the Junior Kenjin Kai you find that many of the Kibei — that is,
American-born Japanese who have gone to Japan for their further
education — have filled the more unportant roles.
I am acquainted with Heimusha Kai, which is an organization
which existed on the American Pacific coast prior to Pearl Harbor,
composed of the veterans of the Russo-Japanese war, whose duties
were largely those of collecting money for the Imperial Navy or the
Imperial Army.
Mr. Steedman. "When you went to work for the W. R. A., had you
a good basic knowledge of Japanese psychology and Japanese cus-
toms?
Mr. James. I would say an average knowledge of a pereon interested
in this phase of Japanese activities on the coast; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Wlio requested you to apply for a position m the
W. R. A.?
Mr. James. Off the record may I state the circumstances?
Mr. Costello. I might state for the benefit of the press that from
time to time a witness may want to make some remark off the record
and I respectfully request confidence in that regard. We wiU go off
the record for a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
IVIr. Costello. On the record.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat were your duties and responsibilities at
Poston?
Mr. James. For the first 4 months I was in charge of the intake
center where all arriving Japanese were processed through. .
I maintained a staff varying, at times, from 60 to as high as 150
Japanese who assisted me in that work.
Japanese upon arriving at Poston were immediately brought into
the intake station where they were processed through, given a pre-
liminary interview as to their work background, and then invited to
volunteer to sign W. R. A. Forms Nos. 1 and 2.
Form No. 1 was an affidavit not to engage in sabotage or subversive
activities while at the relocation center.
Form No. 2 was enlistment, a voluntary enlistment in the War
Relocation Authority work corps, an erdistment to perform work at
the project in returii for certain cash advances, and in return they
were to receive also free medical care, basic housing, and food and educa-
tion for their children.
Mr. Steedman. When the individual Japanese arrived at the intake
station, did you have any information regarding his loyalty?
Mr. James. None whatsoever, Mr. Steedman. Occasionally we
would receive from W. C C A. ■
Mr. Steedman. Will you identify the W. C. C. A.?
Mr. James. Yes; that is the Wartime Civilian Control Administra-
tion, setup in the Western Defense Command by Lieutenant General
9074 UlSr-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
DeWitt, to handle the problem of moving Japanese from the three
Pacific Coast States and Arizona to assembly centers, and from assem-
bly centers to the relocation centers.
Occasionally Japanese were brought directly from their homes to
the relocation centers.
In addition to operating the intake station
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Steedman's question has not been answered.
Did you have any information regarding these Japanese when they
arrived at the camp?
Mr. James. I had better give you an answer to that. There
were dossiers sent in by the W. C. C. A. on the previous address of
these Japanese regarding their physical condition, the members of
their family, but to my knowledge I have never seen any dossiers
containing information on their subversive activities.
The dossiers showed if they had been educated in Japan, which
was not necessarily prima facie evidence that they were subversive.
Mr. Stbedman. In other words, you didn't know whether they
were good or bad Japanese when they arrived at the center?
Mr. James. That is right.
Shall I go on with my activities, Mr. Steedman?
Mr. Steedman. I would prefer to bring them out by questions.
Mr. James. May I add one more sentence on the intake?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. James. In the operation of the intake center, it required a
small corps of interpreters, typists, and fingerprint operators.
Mr. Costello. Is a large percentage of the Japanese unable to
speak English?
Mr. James. No, sir.
Mr. Costello. Do practically all the Japanese speak English?
Mr. James. No; I would say that, oh, possibly 70 percent can
understand English.
Mr. Costello. And those who do Dot speak English are they the
older people?
Mr. James. The older people; yes; and some of the Kibei, those
who were born here and then gone back to Japan cannot speak the
language.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you understand any Japanese?
Mr. James. I have a fairly good knowledge of conversational
Japanese and perhaps — ■ — -
Mr. MuNDT. .Do you speak the language?
Mr. Jame^. That doesn't qualify me as an expert.
Mr. MuNDT. You are one of the few members at Poston that could
understand Japanese?
Mr. James. I understand the working of the language and the
extreme difficulty of the translations. I might add to mj knowledge —
perhaps I had better put this off the record.
Mr. Costello. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Costello. On the record.
Mr. MuNDT. The Japanese at the relocation center corresponded
with people on the outside in the Japanese language?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; they do.
Mr. MuNDT. They are permitted to do that?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9075
Air. James. Yes, sir; they do. There is no mail censorship and as
a result, of course, it is quite possible and they do to my knowledge
because I have seen actual letters come in between Gila and Poston
in Japanese.
Mr. MuNDT. In your opinion would it be possible for them to send
code messages among themselves in the Japanese language which
we would not be able to interpret even though we did have an inter-
preter?
Air. James. Alay I go off the record?
Air. CosTELLO. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. CosTELLO. On the record.
Air. AIuNDT. In view of the fact there is no mail censorship and
that the Japanese are permitted to correspond with other Japanese
outside of the relocation center at Poston, is it your belief that it would
be possible for them to send code messages back and forth which would
not be detectable?
Air. James. Yes, sir.
Air. CosTELLo. In view of the fact there is no censorship?
Air. James. Yes; in view of the fact there is no censorship.
Air. CosTELLo. They wouldn't even have to use a code?
Air. James. All you would have to do is write it in Japanese.
Air. MuNDT. Even without censorship of the letters that you have
examined it would take an expert in the Japanese language to detect
a code message in the Japanese language?
Air. James. That is correct.
Air. Steedman. \Yhat was the date of arrival of the fu-st Japanese
at Poston?
Air. James. Approxmiately May 12. On May 12 two came in
from El Centro and on the 13th we received 50 from the Lnperial
Valley.
Air. Steedman. At that period in the history of the project were
there any project employees who had had previous experience in the
handling of Japanese?
Mr. James. No, sir; the only one who may have had experience
was the project director. Air. Head, who had lived in the Philippine
Islands for several years, but to my knowledge none at that stage
had had any dealings with Japanese either in California or in Hawaii.
Air. Steedman. As I understand it you were employed by the
W. R. A. and assigned to Poston?
Air. James. That is correct, sir.
Mr, Steedman. And the other employees or the majority of the
other employees were assigned to Poston by the Indian Service?
Air. James. That is correct.
Air. Steedman. After the reception of the evacuees had been com-
pleted at the project at Poston, what were your duties then?
Air. James. The process of processing them through the intake
station continued from Alay to September, but paralleling that my
job was to set up the project newspaper which, until October 1, was
financed by the War Relocation Authority and Indian Service — that
is the paper and the ink was paid for by the Federal agencies.
On October 1 the name of the paper was changed to Poston Daily
Chronicle and at my suggestion the Japanese were charged a subscrip-
tion rate of 30 cents a month for their mimeographed paper, and took
over the responsibility for the editorial treatment.
9076 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
My job then was simply to see tliat official news coming from the
project director's office or from the regional office in San Francisco
or from the Washington office, was given the proper break in the
publication.
I had no control over the editorial policies and told the staff that
they were on their own ; that they would have to stand by their own
statements.
I believe we are the only project paper that has made its own way.
I felt that it was far better to do that and not have a press censor-
ship there in order to feel or find out exactly how the people were
feeling. I felt that it was far better to get them out in the open and
let them actually speak for themselves — how they felt about a great
many of the problems that came up in relocation.
As far as the Japanese edition of the Clu"onicle was concerned, the
arrangement had to be made to monitor the Japanese part of the
paper by the Office of Navy Intelligence of the twelfth district of
military intelligence at Phoenix and the Department of Justice in
Washington. Copies have gone to each of those three agencies of
€very edition that has come out.
Mr. CosTELLO. When you say "monitored" you mean simply
reviewed?
Mr. James. Keviewed them on the theory, Congressman, that
anything that would be said inside the publication at Poston would not
affect external problems. I think that has worked out pretty satis-
factorily. We have had, I think, only one kick-back from the
Department of Justice.
Mr. MuNDT. 1^ the Poston Chronicle sent to the rapidly growing
ranks of the alumini at Poston who have been released from the camp?
Mr. James. Only to those who have put 30 cents on the line.
Mr. MuNDT. If they have gone and are now a part of the alumnus
living outside of the camp and in the Middle West they can get the
newspaper?
Mr. James. If they put the money on the line.
Mr. MuNDT. And receive the Japanese edition, too?
Mr. James. Yes; receive the Japanese edition.
Mr. MuNDT. Then the monitoring system wouldn't be entirely a
safeguard against anything that should not be published?
Mr. James. No; and of com-se the presimiption is that if the
Department of Justice in Washington or these other Intelligence
services would have made their translations and if anything popped
up they would be able to handle it. These translators Imow that
somebody is riding herd on them in Washington in the Ingellitence
service — they Imow that and I believe that is why they haven't
stepped out of line.
Mr, MuNDT. So far as you know there has been nothing in the
paper, either in English or Japanese, which would tend to stir up
trouble among the Japanese?
Mr. James. Well, now, maybe I had better back up there. It all
depends on what you mean t3y "trouble." If you mean editorially
attacking Lieutenant General DeWitt, I think they can stand on
their own feet.
Mr. MuNDT. I wasn't thinking about that so much. I was think-
ing about something that might tend to stir up subversive action.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9077
Mr. James. Definitoly no. I have never seen anything in the
Poston Chronicle espousing the cause of Imperial Japan, either in the
Japanese or English language.
Air. MuNDT. But you do accord them the American privilege of
griping?
Air. James. Yes; and many tunes they have taken on the adminis-
tration down there.
Mr. MuNDT. I wouldn't object'to that.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe, Mr. James, the editorial policy as
expressed by the editorial writers of the paper is indicative of the
sentmient and feeling of the people in the camp?
Mr. James. I do. Many times, as I say, they took on us whom
they called "Hakujin," which literally means hairy barbarians.
Mr. MuNDT. Hairy barbarians?
Mr. James. That is the way they refer to us but it was usually in a
temperate sort of way and many times they were personally justified
in taking us on.
Mr. Steedman. Who was your immediate superior at Poston?
Mr. James. At Poston it was Wade Head, the project du-ector.
Mr. Steedman. So youi- position was dh-ectly under the project
director's office?
Mr. James. That is correct, yes, sh".
Mr. Steedman. And you reported to the project director?
yiv. James. That is right. In San Francisco my immediate
superior was Edwin Bates, who was regional chief of the Reports
Section for W. R. A.
Mr. Steedman. And you were employed during the period when
Mr. Eisenhower was the Director of W. R. A., is that correct?
!Mr. James. I was, sir.
!Mr. SteedmAn. Would you state for the record !Mr. Eisenhower's
full name?
'Sir. James. Milton S. Eisenhower. He is the brother of General
Eisenhower.
Mr. Steedman. Immediately following Pearl Harbor, the F. B. I.
apprehended and sent to internment camps, Japanese whom they
considered dangerous. Were any of those Japanese who had been
in internment camps later returned to Poston?
Mr. James. They were, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have the approximate number?
Mr. James. Approximately 3G5 were released from Bismarck,
N. Dak. and Sante Fe, N. Mex.
Mr. Steedman. What were those Japanese sent to internment
camps for?
Afr. James. I am not acquainted with all the dossiers on those men.
I happen to know a number of instances. A number of them had
made contributions to the Imperial Navy fund or the Imperial Army
fund or it had been shown that they liad at one time maintained
membership in one of the scmipatriotic organizations.
In every case I am convinced that there was enough basis that the
F. B. I. had — and the O. N. I. had — that they produced sufficient basis
for the internment of these men for the duration of the war.
I am not acquainted with the facts as to why the}- were turned loose
on the relocation centers.
'9078 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what occasioned the Government to
release the Japanese and send them to the relocation centers?
Mr. James. I believe the Bureau of Immigration or Department of
Justice working through local hearing boards at Bismarck or Santa Fe.
Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the F. B. I.'s attitude toward
the return of the interned aliens whom we are now discussing, to the
relocation centers?
Mr. James. I am, but I am afraid I will have to go off the record
on that because I don't want to mention an opinion that friends of
mine in the F. B. I. would hear about, and I wouldn't want to put it
in the record because it would be a second-hand opinion, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Let me ask you another ciuestion at this point: In
your opinion, did the F. B. I. approve of the release of the interned
Japanese to the W. II . A. relocation centers?
Mr. James. No; judging by their actions in attempting to send
these men back to the internment camps as a result of activities
conducted at Boston and, I believe, other relocation centers.
Mr. Costello. The F. B. I. did not have control of the courts or
anything of that sort or the hearmgs held at Bismarck or Santa Fe?
Mr. J.\MES. No, sir; they had no control over the alien hearing
boards that resulted in turning loose these potentially dangerous men.
Mr. Costello. Was that a branch of the Department of
Immigration?
Mr. James. Either that or the Attorney General's office. I am
not familiar with the machinery set up there. I am told it was
local boards.
Mr. MuNDT. But you know the F. B. I. had nothing to do with
those hearings?
Mr. James. I do.
Mr. Costello. They conducted their own hearings and released
them?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. "Were some of those who were returned to Boston
ultmiately sent back to an internment camp?"
Mr. James. Yes. sir; because of activities conducted at Boston.
Mr. Costello. Did they have to secure additional evidence on
them and evidence as to their activities before they could be returned
to an internment camp?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know of any of those Japanese who were
sent from the internment camps back to Boston, who were subse-
quently released for indefinite leave by the leave office at Boston?
Mr. James. That I do not. Congressman. . I am not famihar with
the broad workings of the leave program.
Mr. Costello. It is quite possible that some of them could have
been released?
Mr. James. Yes; it is — it is quite possible.
Mr. Costello. You have no personal knowledge of the number?
Mr. James. I have no personal knowledge of that.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know anything about the operation of the
so-called stop list at Boston? How a man gets on the stop list?
Mr. James. No. That has been worked out entirely by the leave
office at Boston and the leave office in Washington, D. C.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9079
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether there is anything in the in-
structions which automaticallj^ puts a man on the stop hst if he has
come to Poston from an internment camp?
Mr. James. I do not.
Mr. Steedman. The F. B. I., the O. N. I., and the G-2 of the
Army evidently had information or evidence on the ahens which
justified their internment, is that correct?
Mr. James. That is true. One friend of mine in one of the Intelli-
gence services expressed this as his opinion, and I toss it out to you for
what it is worth: After Pearl Harbor although approximately 6,000
Japanese were picked up and held, for every one that had been picked
up at least one other slipped through the net' — at least one other.
That would be the minim mii because of the lack of knowledge that we
Caucasian or white people had of the character of these extremely
reticent people and theu' fanaticism.
Mr. Steedman. Retm'ning now to the 365 internees who were re-
turned from the internment camps to Poston. After those men re-
turned to Poston, did violence begin inside the project?
Mr. James. It did, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What form did that violence take?
Mr. James. It took the form of a series of beatings, starting Septem-
ber 15, and continuing through the night of November 14, with
isolated cases recm-ring in January of the current year.
Mr. CosTELLO. May I interpose a question there: You say that
started on September 15. Had these 365 Japanese been located at
Poston prior to that time?
Mr. James. They were coming in gradually, Congi-essman, starting
on — some of them were released to us in June, July, and August. It
was pretty hot down there. On July 2d it hit 146 — the hottest day
of the year. Apparently they were not able to get organized untU
the faU.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you beheve these interned Japanese were be-
hind the dissension and dissatisfaction that caused the trouble there?
Mr. James. I believe they were a very important contributing
factor. I would like the opportunity to develop that if Mr. Steedman
cares to have me do that.
^Ir. wSteedman. I had plamied to go into that phase of the trouble
at Poston, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. James. May I make a request at this time, Mr. Steedman? It
^\dll probably be necessary from time to time to mention Japanese
names and their Poston address. I would like to say off the record in a
great many instances these people are being investigated by the proper
intelhgence services and I tliink it would be very wise not to use their
names publicly because some of them are pretty bad babies.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would it be satisfactory for you to mention the
names of the people and request the press not to use those names?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. The only thing about that is when these hearings
are printed these names will be in the record and whether or not the
intelligence services care to have those names printed in the record,
I don't know.
Mr. MuNDT. They should have completed their investigation by
that time.
9080 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. I was going to suggest as far as the record is con-
cerned, whenever a Japanese name is used we might refer to it simply
by the fii-st letter or whatever letter it happens to start with.
Mr. MuNDT. I suggest that we use the names and request the press
not to publish them and that Mr. Steedman provide the intelligence
service of the F. B. I. and Army and Navy with a list of those names. .
I think they should be in the record. By the time we get ready to
publish the hearings I know the investigations will have been made of
those Japs.
Mr. James. They have the names that I have.
Mr. CosTELLO. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. CosTELLO. For the purpose of the record, from this point on
the use of any Japanese name under investigation, in printing the hear-
ings, will be noted and the editor will take care not to publish any such
names in the printed hearings.
Mr. Steedman. Returning to the start of the trouble at Boston:
Did you receive any reports that internees, those who were returned
from internment camps, were making threats against those Japanese
who had participated in their hearings before the immigration boards
and before the F. B. I. and other governmental agencies?
Mr. James. I did.
Mr. Steedman. What was the nature of those threats?
Mr. James. The threats were these: That at Bismarck and again
at Santa Fe these internees, many of them, had pledged themselves
to get any of their fellow Japanese who had participated in any way
in the hearings at Santa Fe and Bismarck, at El Centro and elsewhere
on the coast where hearings were held.
Mr. MuNDT. Had that series of hearings tended to incriminate some
of the internees?
Mr. James. Shall I make it clearer?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. James. There were Japanese who Were used as interpreters
and translators. They were not used as informers, to my knowledge,
either prior
Mr. Mtjndt. They wanted to get even because they had cooperated
with this country?
Mr. James. That is right; yes — participated in the use of this highly
intricate language.
Mr. Steedman. Did the internees serve notice on those Japanese
who had cooperated with the Government authorities that they were
going to beat up every one who had helped the Government?
Mr. James. They didn't serve notice on the Government authorities.
Mr. Steedman. I am asking if they served such notice on Japanese
who cooperated with the Government authorities?
Mr. James. Oh, the individual Japanese? They started to warn
them that so and so "has come back in camp; he doesn't like you —
you had better watch out — don't be seen too often with the Hakujin,"
the white people, "or you are going to get yours."
Mr. Steedman. Who was the first Japanese beaten up by these
gangsters?
Mr. James. On the evening of September 15 it was Saburo Kido,
national president of the American — Japanese-American Citizens
League. Kido was attacked by a group of eight American-born boys
in the second unit at Boston.
UN-AJMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9081
Mr. MuNDT. Beaten up by American-born Japanese?
Mr. James. Yes; beaten up by American-born Japanese. Kido
was a former San Francisco attorney and at the time lie was beaten
up he was president of the Japanese-American Citizens League.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you beheve that the Japanese-American
Citizens League is a patriotic organization of the Japanese?
Mr. James. In the years before the war and since the war I have
had a number of deahngs with them and spoken before them and I
think by and large they have done a swell job. 1 think, unfortunately,
they represent only a small proportion of the American-born Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please relate to the committee just what
happened to Kido?
Air. James. Yes. Kido had been active in San Francisco. He
had worked with the intelligence services and to my knowledge had
appeared at some of these hearings. He was going to his house at
about 10:30 at night when he was jumped by this group, who were
later identified as American-born Japanese.
The boys, apparently, had been prompted to do this by propaganda
which was disseminating from these internees. This was one beating
up which did not follow the pattern of other beatings that I am going
into later. It was a case where young American boys who had never
known Kido had been told by their parents and friends that that was
their job to do, to beat him up.
Mr. MuNDT. Wliat was the age of these American boys?
Mr. James. Eighteen, nineteen and twenty.
Mr. MuNDT. Not so young that they couldn't give a man a pretty
good beating.
Mr. James. Sure they could.
Mr. Steedman. Did you make an investigation of this occurrence?
Mr. James. I did.
Mr. Steedman. Did you submit a report of what you learned to
Mr. Head?
Mr. James. Mr. Head made a report of his own paralleling mine.
Mr. Steedman. Were any of these Japanese boys who beat up
Kido apprehended?
Mr. James. One. The other seven had secured seasonal work
permits and were working in the beet fields.
Mr. Steedman. That is they had been released for seasonal work
by the time they found out who they were?
Mr. James. By the time the mvestigation was completed the eighth
boy was all set to leave but happened to be apprehended the very
afternoon he was being released.
Mr. Steedman. Wliich one was apprehended?
Mr. James. I haven't his name here, unfortunately. I can furnish
that to you. That is the only one of the cases that I have mentioned
whose name I haven't got.
Mr. Steedman. Well, did any of these boys receive disciplinary
action for the part they played in this assault?
Mr. James. I believe the ringleader was given a term of probation.
He happened to be a member of the Foston No. 2 fire department.
He was permitted to keep his job and as I say was put on good be-
havior for 90 days.
Mr. Mundt. Was. he the one that was caught there?
Mr. James. Yes; he was the one that was caught.
9082 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Were the other seven recalled from their leaves?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. MuNDT. They were permitted to work in the beet fields?
Mr. James. That is right. They subsequently returned to the
center after the completion of the beet harvest.
Mr. CosTELLO. But no prosecution was had at that time?
Mr. James. No prosecution was had at that time; no, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. But the authorities at Boston would have had the
power to have recalled them from their seasonal leaves for trial at
the camp if they so desired?
Mr. James. That is quite correct; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. From your knowledge of the Japanese generally, do
you feel that a Japanese boy of 18, 19, or 20, who had participated
in beating up a fellow Japanese because he was lo3^al to the United
States Government, and then released on indefinite leave to work in
a beet field, w;as a suitable man to be let run loose like that?
Mr. James. I wouldn't put it on a loyalty basis. I would say the
youngsters are emotionally in a position that would make it very
dangerous to turn them loose in a white community.
Mr. MuNDT. It would seem that way to me.
Mr. James. I don't think it is a case of loyalty; I think it is a
maladjustment in that sort of boy who is suffering from a sort of
tunnel vision. The call of race is prett}^ strong.
Mr. MuNDT. Were these boys raised in Japan?
Mr. James. No. The ringleader was a graduate of the Watson-
ville High School. He was a member of the track team there and
he was a good student. And some of these psychological factors it
is hard for white people to understand and because of their strange-
ness of honor, this youngster and the other seven took it upon them-
selves to beat up Kido.
The administrator of camp No. 2, James Crawford, has that record.
Mr. MuNDT. After these boys returned from the beet fields, were
they disciplined in any way?
Mr. James. Not at all — not to my knowledge. Congressman. They
may have been given a parental talking to but I don't thinlv it was any
stiffer than that.
Mr. Steedman. In j^our opinion did the weak-kneed policy of the
project administration indicate weakness to the Japanese?
Mr. James. Can I qualify my answer in this respect: That in the
14 months, close to 14 months that I was associated with this largest
of all relocation centers, I think, gentlemen, that very, vciy few of these
Japanese can harbor anything but contempt for Caucasians who show
so-called "Christian virtues."
After all we must examine their lives on the Bacific coast. They
are highly individualistic people. Kindness to most of them as shown
in their own families where they are under the domination of their
parents, and I am talking about the American born, is the type of
kindness which we cannot imagine. It is filial loyalty based upon
fear — fear of the old papasan — the old man of the family. There are
very, very few — I have seen very, very few instances where I have
noted there has been any kindness or the so-called humanitarian vir-
tues such as we white people understand. After all any of the second
born generation Japanese are only 30 or 40 years away from the old
country.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9083
If it is possible, and I am not going to venture an opinion on that,
but if it is possible to thoroughly mix them up in the melting pot of
America, certainly it is too soon for us to say these Christian virtues
have been absorbed by them.
Air. CosTELLO. The parents completely dominate the families?
Mr. James. Yes; they are completely dominated.
Mr. MuNDT. They have respect for a strong disciplinarian control?
Mr. James. That is correct, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And a contempt for a relaxation of that control?
Mr. James. They have contempt for anyone who is indecisive;
anyone who shows weaknesses. That is a trait of the Yamoto race
and it has been intensified as a result of the 12 months these people
have spent in the relocation centers. I would make one qualifying
statement on that:
I do believe the women, and I want to pay tribute to the Japanese-
American women in these camps, they are in a very difficult spot.
They have absorbed far more Americanization than the men. They
are trying desperately to stand up to the standards of American
womanhood because they stand to lose a devil of a lot. They don't
want to go back to the period of bondage that the mamasan occupy;
they want to be American women. And, as a matter of fact, the best
sources of information — as a matter of fact, the only slim sources of
information I had at Poston was in the case of Japanese women, and
especially the American-born who were married and perhaps had a
child or two.
Mr. MuNDT. That is a very interesting observation and it sounds
very logical, that the Japanese women would not want to go back to
the old life.
Mr. James. They are splendid. They come up every day in the
desert heat freslily laundered and they are trying desperately to be
Americans, but in many cases they are under the domination of their
fathers.
Mr. MuNDT. Is the Japanese wife subject to the domination of the
husband's family, too?
Mr. James. Not so much in the case of American born. Very
seldom do you run across that but she is under the domination of her
father. She can't break away from that.
I saw one case here last fall when a small gi"oup of our people were
leaving to go on the Gripsholm on the exchange of nationals. In that
gi-oup was an old Japanese doctor and his American-born daughter and
that American-born daughter didn't want to go back to Japan.
There were tears in her eyes when she left Poston, but she had to go^ —
she had no choice but obey the wUl of her father.
Mr. CosTELLO. How old was she?
Mr. James. Twenty-one; and she had never been to Japan.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know a Japanese by the name of Kay
Nishimura?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. Mr. Nishimura worked for me for a period of
about G months as chief interpreter for me. He came originall}^ from
El Centro, Calif., and had been an interpreter for the sherifi"'s office
and also for the Bureau of Federal Investigation at El Centro.
Mr. Steedman. And in those connections he acted as interpreter in
a number of cases where Japanese internees were involved?
Mr. Ja:mes. That is correct, sir.
9084 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the occasion of Mr. Nishimura being
assaulted by a Japanese mob inside of the center at Poston?
Mr. James. I do. He was assaulted on two occasions.
Mt. Steedman. Will you relate to the committee just what hap-
pened on the first occasion?
ISIr. James. Yes, sir. !May I consult my notes just a moment?
INIr. CosTELLO. While you are looking through j^our notes, we will
take a few minutes recess.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTEiiLO. The committee will be in" order.
Mr. James. On the night of September 12 at approximately 11
o'clock, !Mr. Nishimura was coming home from a dance. He was
attacked by a group of unidentified persons. He testified there was
between 8 and 12 who beat him up and he was hospitalized at the
Poston General Hospital. He was released after about 5 days.
Nishimura told me that he had received warnings for at least 2
weeks prior to that that he was going to be beaten up.
Mr. Steedman. Did you investigate that instance?
Mr. James. I did. Mr. Nishimura wasn't able to disclose to me
the identity of the persons who had attacked him in the first beating.
Mr. Steedman. Were they masked?
Mr. James. Not that group; no.
Mr. Costello. Was any reason given to. you for the beating?
Mr. James. Nishimura said he had made enemies because he had
been a translator and interpreter and he believed he made these
enemies and that they had possibly — it possibly could be traced to
these internees.
He did mention the name of one internee, Juro Omori.
It is perfectly all right to use his name because he is now under
lock and key at Santa Fe, N. Mex.
Mr. Steedman. He felt that the Japanese whom you have just
mentioned was one of the men that assaulted him?
Mr. James. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Was anything done to protect Mr. Nishimura
from further harm after this first beating?
Mr. James. No. As a matter of fact, he didn't ask for protection.
Mr. Steedman. Did he continue to work for you as an interpreter?
Air. James. He continued to work for me as chief of the transla-
tion service.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Tom Ito?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; his name is Tomo.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you leaving Mr. Nishimura now?
Mr. Steedman. Leaving him temporarily. He was beaten up the
second time but I wanted to bring in the beatings in a chronological
order.
Mr. James. I know Mr. Tomo whose last name is Ito. He is an
honor student, graduated from Stanford University and for a num-
ber of months was supervisor of block managers in the first unit at
Poston.
On the night of September 14, a group of between 8 and 10 men,
according to his testimony, garbed in Japanese hoods, traditional
Samuri hoods, attempted to break down the door of his apartment.
He previously, according to his testimony given to me, received
mysterious warnings from friends of his that he was to be beaten up.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9085
The gang of hooded men were masked, weanng the Samuri hoods
and ran away after Ito's yells aroused the neighborhood. Inciden-
tally, he had secured a large and heavy Yale lock for his door and
apparently was expecting trouble.
Air, Steedman. Was Ito friendly to the project ofTicials?
Mr. James. Very prominent in the project administration. He had
played ball 100 percent with us.
Mr. MuNDT. Wliat is the "Samuri hood"?
Mr. James. Well, it is rather hard to describe. Have you seen
pictures of a prince of the old Japanese warriors? They wear a hooded
arrangement made of cloth that fits over the head and allows for a
mask that drops from here down to about here [indicatmg].
Mr. CosTELLO. That is, it covers the face from the nose down?
Mr. James. That is right, covers the face from the nose down.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that something that the Japanese had made there
at Poston or did they bring them to camp with them?
Mr. James. Made them themselves — made them out of cheap
material. They could be made out of burlap or could be made out
of cheap cotton goods.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is it a part of some ceremonial custom?
Mr. James. Yes; it is part of a ceremonial custom.
Mr. Steedman. Costumes similar to those worn by members of the
Butoku-Kai?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; it is a ceremonial headdress.
Mr. Steedman. Did the attempt to assault Ito follow the same
pattern as the first assault that was made upon Nishimura?
Mr, James. Insofar as the warnings were concerned, yes; and
in the number of people that were participating; yes.
Mr. Steedman. And both beatings happened at nighttime?
Mr. James. At nighttime; yes. .
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese police inside the center investi-
gate those cases?
Mr. James. They did. I would like to state for the record that
from the period May 1 to October 1 there was no white supervisor of
police at Poston. The work, was entirely undertaken by Japanese
working under the direction of the unit adnimistrators.
Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese police diligent in their investi-
gation of these assaults that were taking place?
Mr. James. They were unable to furnish any mformation as to who
was responsible.
Mr. Steedman. Did they attempt to obtain that information?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge; no.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Hatsumi Yamada?
Mr. James. Yes. He was director of recreational activities for
the first imit at Poston.
He is a candidate for the Military Language School at Camp
Savage. He was a former resident of Santa Ana, Calif., where he and
his sister acted as interpreters for several years for the United States
Immigration Service.
Mr. Steedman. Was he friendly to the project administration?
Mr. James. Very friendly and very helpful. He had a good
knowledge of the Japanese language and had actually worked for
me fram time to time as an interpreter. He was an excellent inter-
preter.
62626 — 13— vol. 15 17
9086 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Did he receive a beating similar to the other two
Japanese whom we have been talking about?
Mr. James. He did. During the period from October, approxi-
mately October 1 to October 17, he received a series of warnings he
was to be beaten up.
On the night of October 17 when he was returning from an affair
which was being held m the center at Poston, he was attacked by three
men, not hooded. These men were not hooded. He was attacked
by these three men but managed to escape by running away. from them.
He too received first-aid treatment at the hospital. He was not
Jiospitalized as Nishimura and Kido were. His injuries were not
severe.
Mr. Steedman. Did this mob also attack his sister?
Mr. James. Not on that occasion; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did it on any occasion?
Mr. James. Later they did ; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please relate that incident?
Mr. James. That was on the night of November 15 at 11 p. m.,
1942. The parents of Hatsumi Yamada and his sister received a
shght beating by a group of approximately eight men who broke into
their barracks apartment apparently seeking Hatsumi.
Hatsumi had been sphited away because he had received these
warnings and was fearful of his life. We had moved him to, I believe,
the Poston General Hospital — put him in an isolation ward there.
Mr. Steedman. So the gang couldn't find Yamada so they attacked
his mother and sister?
Mr. James. Yes, and the Yamada women were only slightly hurt —
slightly injured.
Air. Steedman. Was his father in the house at the time?
Mr. James. I am not sure on that point, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Did you say the women were hospitalized?
Air. James. No, they received first-aid treatment. They were
terrorized so and repeatedly appealed for protection during the
period from November 15 to November 25, when we had our trouble
at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. Were they able to identify any of their assailants?
Mr. James. No, they were not.
Mr. Steedman. Were those men hooded?
Air. James. No, they were not hooded men.
Air. Steedman. Do you know Joseph Francis Seta?
Mr. James. I do. He was a member of the Poston No. 1 fire
department. On the night following the beating up of Hatsumi
Yamada, Joseph Francis Seta went to his barracks apartment along
about 11 o'clock and with him was his uncle. I have not the uncle's
name here. They retired and at approximately 11:30 the door of
their apartment was smashed down and a group of eight hooded men
broke in and administered severe beatings to Seta, to his uncle, and
underneath of the bed of Seta was left a sword about 4 feet long,
made of wood, and an exact copy of a Samurai sword, with a black
ribbon attached to it and that sword, I believe, is now in the possession
of Ernest Aiiller, the head of the internal security department at
Poston.
Air. Steedman. Had Seta received advance warnings?
Mr. James. Seta had received warnings he was to be beaten up.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9087
Mr. Steedman. Was Seta friendly to tHe administration?
Mr. James. He was very friendl}" to the administration. He was
inspector for the fire department and was doing a good job inspecting
fire hazards — the accumuhition of rubbish around houses and was
insisting that the people clean up their premises.
It is highly possible he made enemies there. He also had received
certain — I believe certain correspondence courses in police work and'
was endeavoring to help the administration b}' furnishing information,
I think, on activities within the camp.
I am not in possession of any information on that but I have been
told by other people that that was the case and that that was why he
was beaten up.
Seta positively identified his assailants on October 18. He identified
that party to me and to Mr. Miller. The name of that person was
Ucliida— Isamu Uchida. Uchida was head of the judo wrestling
organization in Poston.
yir. Steedman. At that point I would like to ask you if the judo
clubs, prior to Pearl Harbor, were part of the organization known as
the Butoku-Kai or Militaiy Virtue Society?
Mr. James. May I amplify about the Butoku-Kai according to
the information I have on it.
It took various forms: One was Kibei, the name for American-born
Japanese educated in Japan. A rough designation would be overseas
society —Kibei Shiman— that was the — it was a cultural group.
In the case of judo, there Avas no direct tie-in with the Butoku-Kai
except in one respect: Every 2 years from Imperial Japan, on special
visiting permits, came instructors into San Francisco and Seattle and
Los Angeles to bring the Japanese on the Pacific coast up-to-date and,
presumably, to sort of inspect and see how their standards were being
kept up.
Mr. MuNDT. What disciplinary action was taken against the
assailant who was positively identified in this case?
Mr. James. At the time"^ none. Mr. Seta was sphited out of the
camp to Glendale, Ariz., where he was able to secure a job working
in the fields.
Mr. MuNDT. Spirited out?
Mr. James. Not spirited out. Let me qualify that; taken from
the camp.
Mr. MuNDT. After the beating that he had been the recipient of?
Mr. James. After he finished his period in the hospital,
Mr. MuNDT. I was askmg about what disciplinary action was taken,
against liis assailant?
Mr. James. Oh; Uchida? None at that time.
Mr. MuNDT. None whatsoever?
Mr. James. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. ^¥hat subsequent action was taken against hun?
Mr. James. The name of Uchida, Congressman, will in a few
moments enter into the events of September 14, in the second beating
of Nishimura, which resulted in the arrest of Uchida at that time.
Mr. MuNDT. Didn't the project head, or somebody charged with the
administration of law and order at the project call in this assadant
and talk to him afterwards?
'9088 UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. To be perfectly fair I had
better qualify this: The name of Uchida as one of the assailants of
Joseph Jrancis Seta only popped into our files in about the first or
second week in November after Seta's period of hospitalization and
after he had gotten over his fright period the name came to us. That
■was after Seta had been moved to Glendale. He talked then.
Mr. MuNDT. Is he still at Glendale?
Mr. James. To my knowledge he is still at Glendale.
Mr. Steedman. 1 hand you a memorandum entitled "Chi'onology of
Events in Disturbances at Colorado River War Relocation Project,
November 15-November 25, 1942," and ask you if you have ever
seen the original of this memorandum?
(Handing document to the witness.)
Mr. James. I have, Mr. Steedman. I prepared this myself in
•collaboration with Capt. D. J. McFadden, who was a representative
of Lt. Gen. John L. DeWitt.
During the disturbances at Poston from November 14 to November
25, this chronology was compiled from my hourly notes that I made
during the disturbances there, supplemented by those of Captain
McFadden and the two representatives of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation who were with us a part of the time, and with Major
Dykes, of the Southern Security Command, representing the military
police.
Mr. Steedman. So the record may be clear, did Seta go to work at
Glendale, xiriz?
Mr. James. What date did he go to work?
Mr. Steedman. No; did he go to work at Glendale, Ariz?
Mr. James. Yes; he did.
Mr. Steedman. And that is not Glendale, Calif?
Mr. James. No; Glendale, Ariz.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is a small town outside of Phoenix?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce into the
record by reading this memorandum wliich I have been discussing with
the witness.
Mr. CosTELLO. And it is a memorandum wliich the witness himself
prepared?
Mr. Steedman. Yes, sir; it is; and it is also in the files of the War
Relocation Authority in Washington, D. C, presumably.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed to read the memorandum.
Mr. Steedman. I am reading from the first paragraph of the page,
dated November 14, 10:30 p. m.
Kaj- Nishiinura, 30, Kibei, is severely beaten by unidentified group of between
8 and 10 men in bachelor barracks block 14.
Mr. Steedman. Was this the second time that Nisliimura was
beaten up?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. In tliis particular case he was attacked by
« group of hooded rhen, armed with pieces of pipe, who went to work
on him. They bashed in his face and his nose and his eyes and
Nishimura was taken in an unconscious condition, presumably dead,
to the Poston General Hospital.
For 2 days we didn't know whether he was going to live or die but he
survived after being hospitalized for a month.
ITN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9089"
It was the most brutal of the succession of beatmgs that we had.
Mr. Steedman. Had he received advance notice of the beating?
Mr. James. He had.
Mr. Steedman. Did the whole procedure follow the same pattern
as the other beatings?
^J^. James. It did, except in this case pieces of pipe were used on
him whereas before small pieces of wood or fists were used. This was
the first time that they were out to- kill anybody.
The other cases they were out to terrorize them and possibly drive
them out of camp or drive them away from the administration.
Mr. Steedman. ^Vhere did the second beating of Nishimura occur?
'Mr. James. It occmTed in liis barracks, bachelor barracks in block
14.
Mr. Steedman. Was any attempt made to find out who partici-
pated in that assault?
'Mr. James. Yes. That night about 15 or 20 minutes after the
report had come in, the new internal secmity officer, Mr. Miller, who
had been on duty since October 1, came to my barracks and aroused
me from bed and said Mr. Head had given him orders to send out a
dragnet and pick up everybody we thought might be implicated in
this case.
^Ir. Miller had not been on the job long enough to compile veiy
much of a list. I supplied him wdth a list of betw^een 10 and 20 names
and one of those names was that of Isuma Uchida.
Uchida was picked up that night. The investigation continued all
that night and most of the following day.
Mr. Steedman. Eight at that point I would like to continue with
the reading:
November 15-, 2 a. m. The internal security office, under Mr. Miller, arrests
and places in jail George Fujii, Nishimura's former brother-in-law and Isuma
Uchida, judo wrestling instructor.
At that point could you tell the committee whether or not Ismna
Uchida was employed by the project as a judo instructor?
Mr. James. He was.
Mr. Steedman. And was he paid a salaiy?
Mr. James. He was.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know his rate of pay?
Mr. James. I believe it was $16 a month.
Mr. MuNDT. Isn't this judo which is something which is taught to
members of the Japanese Army?
Mr. James. It is.
Mr. MuNDT. Part of their military training?
Mr. James. It is; that and kendo. We do not permit kendo at
the project. Kendo, as you know, is Japanese fencing.
Mr. MuNDT. Insofar as his instructions went, he was being paid
with American money to teach Japanese in the same type of tech-
niques they learn in Japan w^hen they become members of the Japanese
Army?
Mr. James. Similar tactics, I would say; yes.
Mr. Steedman. As head of the judo organization at Poston,
Uchida was a prominent Japanese?
Mr. James. He was very popular with the Kibei group. He was a
Kibei. He was educated in the schools of Japan and had come back
to this country, I believe, in 1935 or '36.
9030 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Did he speak English?
Mr. James. Brokenly; with a decided Japanese brogue.
Mr. Steedman. I continue to quote from the memorandum:
November 15, 11 a. m. Parents of Hatsumi Yamada receive slight beating
by unidentified group of eight men after Yamada liad received warning on night
•of November 14.
Mr. Steedman. You have already referred to the beating received
by parents of Yamada?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Reading the fourth paragraph:
November 16- — morning. Special Agents Rufus Coulter and Edward Smart
•of Federal Bureau of Investigation arrive at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. You have already referred to that?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman (reading):
November 17. Mr. Dillon Myer, Director of War Relocation Authority, and
Mr. E. R. Fryer, regional director, spend the day in Poston.
When Mr. Myer and Mr. Fryer were at Poston, did you confer
with them?
Mr. James. I did. May I set the picture on that, Mr. Steedman?
Mr. Steedman. Very well.
Mr. James. On Tuesday, November 8 or 9, Mr. John Collier, the
Commissioner of the Indian Service — Indian Affairs, visited Poston
and made two speeches before the Japanese evacuees.
In those speeches which lasted approximately 1 hour each, Commis-
sioner Collier in a very friendly talk, stressed the fact that the Poston's
18,000 Japanese were there for the duration of the war; that the Indian
Service was very optimistic over the possibility of developing Parker
Valley and possibly to reach the ultimate base of 45,000 acres of land
under cultivation; that he was hopeful that a l^ase arrangement could
be worked out so the Japanese, for the duration of the war, would be
actually able to share in any portion of the profits.
The theme of liis speech was that tliis was a permanent deal. At
that time, and I should like to have tliis a part of the record, up to
that time I had never heard of a case of a Japanese at Poston apply-
ing— Japanese as a group, applying for resettlement in the midlands
of America. There have been a few cases of Japanese girls and boys
who wanted to go to midwestern schools to continue their educations,
but there was no organized effort on the part of the Japanese in Poston
to be resettled elsewhere in America.
Mr. MuNDT. That was up to the Sth or 9th of November?
Mr. James. That is correct, sir.
On November 17, Mr. Dillon Myer came in from the east and he
called a general staff meeting and then had subsequent meetings with
the Japanese.
It was at this time that he announced liis resettlement program.
At a staff meeting he told us, in the presence of Mr. Head, Mr.
Gelviii, Mr. Empie, Mr. Evans, and the other administrators at Poston,
that even his Washington office and his San Francisco office had not
been informed yet of this drastic change in the original Eisenhower
program to resettle the Japanese from the American Pacific coast in
the midland area of America.
Afr. CosTELLO. And what was that date aaain?
UN-.\]VIERICAX PROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 9091
Mr. James. On November 17.
Mr. CosTELLO. That was during the trouble at Poston?
Mr. James. During the start of the trouble. Ucliida had been
arrested, Mr. Costello, and was held in the jail.
Mr. Costello. And Dillon Myer was present at that time?
Mr. James. Dillon Myer was present at that time. He stayed
one day at the project developing this tremendous program for
resettlement.
I waiit that in the record to show that less than a week previously
Commissioner Collier had come in and set forth this program for the
Japanese, that they were to be there for the duration of the war and
that steps were being made to assist them in the development of this
potentially very fertile Parker Valley; that that was to be their con-
tribution to the war effort.
Five days later Mr. Dillon Myer came in and stated his personal
program for the resettlement of the Japanese.
Mr. MuxDT. Was the program of John Collier outlined in pretty
close conformity with the program Eisenhower followed when ad-
ministrator?
Mr. James. Very definitely.
Mr. Costello. Did the address of Collier seem to meet with the
approval of the Japanese?
Mr. James. It did.
Mr. Costello. And when Dillon ]\Iyer went to the camp during
the time of this trouble, did he make any investigation, to your
Iviiowledge, of the troubles that were existing?
Mr. James. None whatsoever.
Mr. Costello. Did he inquire into the beatings that had taken
place?
.' Mr. James. He spent about an hour on the afternoon of November
15, conferring with Mr. Ernest Miller, the new Chief of Internal
Security.
I happened to be present at the conversations there and he compli-
mented Mr. MiUer upon having called the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation agents, Mr. Smart and Mr. Coulter, in to investigate the
Uchida case.
Mr. Costello. The F. B. I. men had arrived just the day before?
Mr. James. Yes; they had arrived on the morning of the 17th.
Mr. Costello. The day before Mr. Myer arrived?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; after being summoned by Mr. Miller over the
telephone.
Mr. Mundt. What was the date of Myer visit?
Mr. James. The following day, the 17th. The F. B. I. men had
arrived on the 16th and Myer arrived on the 17th.
He spent the day with Mr. Fryer at Poston and left that night.
Mr. Steedman. Was there an apparent change in the policy of
the W. R. A. between the time of the visit of Mr. Collier and the
visit of Mr. Myer?
Mr. James. Yes, a decided change.
Mr. Steedman. Was there any explanation made by Mr. Myer
of this change?
Mr. James. None. He said he had been giving it some thought for
quite awhile and he was convinced of several things; first of all the
problem of the Japanese, both American-born and aliens was tied in
9092 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
with what was to be done with them after the war. He said the only
solution he could see was to resettle them as quickly as possible.
Mr. Steedman. In the Middle West?
Mr. James. In the Middle West; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Myer impress you as having any knowl-
edge of the Japanese people?
Mr. James. I am not acquainted with Mr. Myer's activities. I
have no knowledge, of his presence on the Pacific coast prior to Pearl
Harbor or of any associations or societies to which he belongs that
might be interested in the study of Japanese people.
Mr. CosTELLO. You had never met him before coming to the camp?
Mr. James. That is correct. I had not met Air. Dillon Myer be-
fore. I was, however, acquainted with his record in the Agricultural
Adjustment Administration.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, he has been a Government
official in Washington for many years, hasn't he?
Mr. James. I believe he has, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. And so far as you know he would have to fix his
policy with reference to the resettlement of Japanese, on reports
received from the relocation centers?
Mr. James. I presume he would, from both the San Franciscp
regional office and from the various project officials.
Mr. MuNDT. Did I understand you to say that Mr. Myer, in his
speech, said the problem of the detention of the Japanese during the
war was tied in with the permanent resettlement program?
Mr. James. No ; he felt there was a tremendous post-war problem as
to what would be done with the people ; that if they stayed in the cen-
ters that to aid the war effort, this manpower should be released to
productive use in areas of the United States where they could be
accepted and as a collateral pomt in connection with that, the post-
war problem would be greatly diminished; they would be permanently
resettled in small communities throughout the United States.
Mr. MuNDT. Did he indicate to the Japanese that this resettlement
would be on a permanent basis and would continue after the war?
Mr. James. Yes; that they would be permanently resettled in the
Midwest.
Mr. MuNDT. He indicated that being settled in the Midwest now
they would be settled there for all time to come?
Mr, James. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. So, so far as the Japanese were concerned they left
that meeting with the impression that it was the policy of the United
States Government to permit them to reside permanently in the
areas to which they were then being resettled?
Mr. James. No; I can't quite make it that simple, Congressman.
They left there with complete confusion. They had not known Mr.
Myer prior to his visit on November 17. They had rather looked
to Mr. Collier as the highest representative of the Government. At
least he was the highest Government representative whom they had
come in contact with. When once they had been told they were there
for the duration of the war they had made the tremendous adjust-
ment to desert living and the abnormal temperatures you have
down there and the frontier type of life. They were prepared to
meet that change and stay there.
UN-.\MERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9093
I am not hero to question Mr. Myer's policy. I am just stating
this as a fact.
Then 5 days later the head of the W. R. A. comes in and proceeded
to tell them that they were going to be, as quickly as possible, moved
out and resettled.
Mr. Stekdman. Did Mr. Myer make a speech to the Japanese?
Mr. James. Yes; he did.
Mr. CosTELLO. About how many Japanese attended the speech?
Mr. James. I don't know. I believe the Poston paper has an
account of that. I am sure the issue of November 18 would give
the transcript of his speech.
Mr. CosTELLo. Do they have an assembly place where the Japanese
can congregate?
Mr. James. Yes; I would say at least 2,000 heard him.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did he make more than one speech to groups there
or not?
Air. James. I believe he made two addresses; one before a group of
leaders — block managers and the members of the temporary com-
munity councils and then later to the people themselves.
Mr. INIuNDT. In announcing his program of resettlement did he
also impress upon the Japanese that they were to be settled in the
Middle West or did he just say: "Resettled."
Mr. James. I would have to check the speech. I am trying to
recall this from memory.
To my knowledge he did not mention the Pacific coast at any
time in his speech. Now, whether he made a broad statement some-
where in that speech that they would be resettled throughout the
United States, I don't remember.
Mr. MuNDT. I am trying to determine whether he designated the
Middle West. That is what I am, trying to find out. You are not
positive of that?
Mr. James. To the best of my knowledge he did not mention any-
thing except the "midland area," and certainly in his discussions with
the staff there he made it quite clear to us that they were to be re-
settled only in the midwestern area.
Mr. Costello. He announced, did he, that this was a program he
had been thuiking over for some time?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; he made it quite clear to us that even his
Washington office did not know about that nor did the big regional
office in San Francisco.
Mr. Costello. He didn't incUcate that he had consulted with any-
body else before arriving at that conclusion?
Mr. James. No, he assumed the personal responsibility for it. As I
recall those were his exact words.
Mr. Costello. That was never indicated before — ^thaf the Japs
were to be settled in any other area other than Poston — where they
were?
Mr. James. Up to November 17, Mr. Costello, they firmly beheved
that their destiny lay in staying at Poston and pioneering the desert
fife and developing Parker Valley.
Mr. Costello. And the only occasion they might expect to leave
the camp would be for work purposes or educational purposes and that
their permanent home would be at Poston?
Mr. James. That is right.
9094 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. And insofar as his speech held impUcations, it im-
plied their homes — permanent homes, were going to be in the area
where they were resettled?
Mr. James. That is right. And the first effect was to cause, in a
number of families I loiew — take in the case of older people, that
caused the fear that their children would leave them and settle out
and they would have to stay back in Poston — they would not be able
to go out because of their age.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words the reaction to the Myer's speech on
the part of the Japanese was not as favorable as to the Collier speech?
Mr. James. At the start it was not. Later on their hopes began
to rise but at the start it caused fear.
Mr. Steedman. The Japanese just didn't know whom to believe,
did they?
Mr. James. That is correct. It caused confusion as it necessarily
would, such a drastic change in policy.
Mr. Steedman. Continuing to read from the memorandum, Mr.
Chairman:
November 18, 9 a. m. : Jim Yahiro and a committee of seven called on Project
Director Head, requesting the immediate release" of Fujii and Uchida and the
squelching of all charges.
Mr. Head sends them to Mr. L. L. Nelson, his executive assistant. In the
meeting Mr. Nelson is informed that the previous evening a testimonial meeting
had been held and it is the unanimous opinion of all the representatives of the
Japanese people in camp No. 1, that Fujii and Uchida are innocent of the charges.
They further request that they be permitted to interview the F. B. I. agents.
The note made at 10:30 a. m., November 18, reads as follows:
Agents Coulter and Smart meet with this group. Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin
leave for Salt Lake City to attend conference of W, R. A. projects directors with
Mr. Myer.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin know this agitation
was going on when they left Poston for Salt Lake City?
Mr. James. They knew the steps that had occurred — the sequence
of events, Mr, Steedman, yes.
Mr. Steedman. And they were advised that trouble was brewing
at Poston before they left?
Mr. James. They were.
Mr. Steedman. Who did they leave in charge of the center?
Mr. James. Mr. John Evans, the imit administrator of Poston 1.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did Mr. Myer accompany them when they left
the camp?
Mr. James. No. Mr. Myer left for Phoenix and from Phoenix he
went to Salt Lake City. I believe he made a stop at the Gila River
project to announce the same resettlement program that he had
announced at Poston. Then he proceeded to Salt Lake City.
Mr. CosTELLO. What date did he leave Poston?
Mr. James. He left Poston on the evening of Nos^ember 17, as I
recall. He was driven by automobile to Phoenix.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether Mr. Myer had requested Mr.
Head and Mr. Empie to meet him at Salt Lake City?
Mr. James. Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin, yes. They were requested
in writing to appear at the regional director's meeting.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was Mr. Myer to be present at. that meeting also?
Air. James. Yes.
UN-.\]MERIC.\X PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9095
Mr. MuNDT. Before that request was transmitted to Mr. Head and
Mr. Empie, did Mr. Myer know about this trouble?
Mr. James. He did.
Mr. IMuNDT. At Poston?
Mr. James. He did. but I don't think he saw the implications in
it, though.
Mr. MuNDT. Probably not, but he did know that a near murder
had been committed there?
Mr. James. He did.
Mr. Steedman. Who did ]Mr. Myer leave in charge of the center
when he and Mr. Head and ]Mr. Gelvin went to Salt Lake City?
Mr. James. \h\ John Evans, administrator of the first unit at
Poston.
Mr. Steedman. How long had Mr. Evans been employed at the
center?
Mr. James. Smce, approximately, May 1942.
Mr. Steedmax. Do you know what ]SIr. Evans' salary was?
Mr. James. I imagine it was about $4,800 a year.
Mr. Steedman. Did he go to Poston originally as a dollar-a-year
man?
Mr. James. I am under the impression he did. He was a friend
of Commissioner Collier. He is a man of considerable wealth him-
self, Mr. Evans is, and I believe he came out there without either a
dollar a year or without any salary at the start of the project, and then
he was given a civil-ser\'ice rating.
Mr. Steedman. Had Mr. Evans had any previous experience with
Japanese people?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. I have never known him to
have been associated with them or having studied Japanese such as
is taught in the Institute of Pacific Relations, or any of the qualified
groups on the Pacific coast.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact jMr. Evans was an easterner,
wasn't he?
Mr. James. That is correct; from Maine. I would like to say for
the record he w^as competent — very competent in matters of business
administration — the routine things as administrator of unit 1 .
Mr. Steedman. Continuing to read from the memorandum:
11 a. m.: A crowd starts to form in front of the camp No. 1 jail. Speeches
are made urging a general strike in sympathy with the prisoners.
2 p. m.: Mr." John Evans, assistant project director and acting project direc-
tor in the absence of Project Director Head, makes a speech before the crowd
and urges them to disperse and go home. This thej' refused to do.
Mr. MuNDT. Just a question there to clarify my own information
on tills. These notes from which you are reading are notes which
Mr. James took on the ground at the time?
Mr. James. Exacth^ I was there continuously during the time,
night and day.
Mr. MuNDT. As intelligence officer?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. I am continuing to read from the memorandum:
2:30 p. m.: Mr. Evans meets with members of the community council of
camp Xo. 1 and suggests the council get in touch with the crowd and make
recommendations.
Mr. Steedman. Was the community council of camp 1 composed of
Japanese?
9096 Uisr-AIVIERICAN PJROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. James. It was American-born Japanese under the directions
issued by the War Relocation Authority from Washington, D. C.
At that time only American-born Japanese could serve on the elective
council.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was any distinction made between the Japanese
educated in tliis country and the Japanese educated in Japan?
Mr. James. None whatsoever.
Mr. CosTELLO. The only qualification was that of American-born?
Mr. James. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. But a Kibei could serve on the council?
Mr. James. Correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were there many IGbeis members of the council?
Mr. James. There were some, Mr. Costello. I don't know how
many at the time. I could tell if I saw the list.
Mr. Steedman. But they had an Issei advisory board to the council;
did they not?
Mr. James. They did; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Made up of alien Japanese?
Mr. James. Made up of alien Japanese ; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Reading further from the meinorandum:
4 p.m.: Mr. Evans meets again with the council. The council makes unanimous
recommendation that both Uchida and Fujii be released unconditionally. Mr.
Evans refuses to accept this proposal, and as a result both the council and the Issei
-advisory board resign.
Mr. Steedman. We have here a picture of the Issei taking the part
of Uchida, the head of the Judo Club; isn't that correct?
Mr. James. That is correct. There was pressm-e, possibly intimida-
tion brought against the council. They had no choice but to resign,
which they did.
Mr. Steedman (reading again from the memorandum) :
6 p. m.: Mr. Evans calls a staff meeting and notifies them of the situation.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation agexits who were present, recommended that
the military police be called in to patrol Poston 1, and told Mr. Evans that they
had notified military intelligence and that Lt. Gen. J. L. DeWitt had been apprised
of the situation, and as a, result it would not be necessary for the project to send
formal notice to General DeWitt. Later Lieutenant Young, in charge of the
military police unit assigned to the Poston project, came and sat in with the staff
discussion. After weighing the facts, Mr. Evans decides that for the present he
would not request the military police to enter camp No. 1, but requests Lieutenant
Young to patrol the roads outside the camp and to place a guard at the motor pool.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Evans oppose the other members of the
staff in refusing to call in the military police?
Mr. James. That is correct; there was a division between the staff.
^ Mr. Steedman. Did some of the members of the staff think an
•emergency existed and that the military police should be inside the
«amp to protect the camp and the Caucasian personnel?
Mr. James. That is correct. I thinlc Mr. H. W. Smith, the chief
fiscal officer, working under Mr. Empie, pointed out at that time that
Mr. Evans was unable to protect $10,000,000 worth of Govermnent
property and was unable to protect the lives of the American-born
Japanese who had been warned and more or less terrorized within
the camp.
Mr. Eberharter. What position did you take in that conference?
Mr. James. Under my position as the representative of the W. R. A.,
I was not given a voice in the project's administrative affairs.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9097
Mr. Eberharter. You were not at the conference?
Mr. James. I was at the conference. I merely submitted the facts
as I saw them at the camp.
Mr. Eberharter. You had no voice in what went on there?
Mr. James. I had no vote because I was not attached to the project
administration.
Mr. Eberharter. And you were not permitted to make recom-
mendations?
Mr. James. That is correct; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Was there present at that staff meeting a man by the
name of Townsend?
Mr. James. Mr, H. H. Townsend? Yes; he was present.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you recall whether he made any recommenda-
tions?
Mr. James. I don't know. Mr. Townsend at that time was in a
httle bit of a pathological condition. When you have 1G,000 Japanese
people thrown at you it sometimes does strange things to people. I
think Mr. Townsend had developed a completely abnormal sense of
values as to what was happening. I think he was basically right on
some of the positions he took, though.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't recall whether he recommended one thing
or the other at the time?
!Mr. James. I don't recall. He was in a highly emotional state of
mind during all our trouble and during the period that he was there.
He was a very capable man. I happen to know his record. He came
to us with a very fine record in civilian life, but after being with us
about a month, as I say, the contact wdth the Japanese probably
destroyed his usefulness in being able to handle them.
That quite frequently happens, gentlemen, with people who have
had no experience ^^^th Japanese. It is very easy to either become
Japanese lovers or, on the other hand, to swing to the other point of
view.
At the project you have to get work done and do a job as best you
can. In Air. Townsend's case, I feel, with no discredit to him at all,
having to see 18,000 of these people every day and do business with
them, sort of got him down.
That is purely my personal opinion and I toss it in for what it is
worth. I have great respect for his previous record in civilian life
and also for some of the things he did at Poston. I got along very
well with him in my own capacity.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
Late evening: The block managers of Poston Camp No. 1 resign.
First indications of a de facto committee as two representatives call at staff
meeting and arrange for the continued operation of subsistence, police and fire
departments and hospital. Mr. Evans approves these arrangements.
November 10, 4 a. m.: Telephone call put in to Director Head and Mr. Gelvin
at Hotel Utah, Salt Lake City.
Eleven a. m.: Staff is notified by Mr. Evans that the two Federal Bureau of
Investigation agents had withdrawn from the ca.^e and are not pressing their
investigation and do not want the prisoners, Fujii and Uchida, hcid iur them.
Mr. Steedman. Why did the Federal Bureau of Investigation
withdraw in this case?
Mr. James. Mr. Smart told me he was unable to complete his-
case against either of these two men.
9098 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
In the case of Mr. George Fujii he sunply wanted to give him a
handwi'iting test to find out whether he had wi-itten an extortion
note thi-eatening the Hfe of one Lyle Kurisaki, a former Hoppville,
Calif., produce man, who had been arrangmg the Japanese members
of the Poston Department of Agriculture — a man very loyal to the
administration.
Mr. Kurisaki, for the sake of the record, had been beaten up back
in October — in the latter part of October — both he and his wife ajid
their 18-year-old boy.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were they hospitalized at that time?
Mr. James. Yes; they were hospitalized. I think we should have
that in the record to complete the list of beatings.
Mr. MuNDT. Had he received this extortion note prior to the
beating?
Mr. James. After the fii'st beating; and the F. B. I. wanted to
compare Fujii's handwriting with the handwriting in the note.
Mr. MuNDT. Did they make the comparison?
Mr. James. They were unable to do it.
Mr. MuNDT. Why?
Mr. James. Because the jail was surromided by this big crowd
and neither of the F. B. I. men were going to risk going through the
line.
Mr. MiTNOT. In other words the milling crowd was a serious enough
menace to peace and security so that members of the F. B. I. were
reluctant to try to get through the crowd to get to the jail to carry
out their duties?
Mr. James. I judge from what they told me that they took that
position.
Mr. Steedman. When did the mob seize the jail?
Mr. James. Actually the crowd at 11 a. m. on the mornmg of
November 18, the crowd started to form in front of the camp No. 1
jail. SometuTie later that evening picket Imes were established by a
certain number of Japanese from each block.
There were a certain number of Japanese from each block who
were required to stand guard duty night and day. Each block had
a quota and they had to do it.
Mr. CcsTELLO. About how many people did that place in the
picket line?
Mr. James. Never less than 500. Congressman Costello.
Mr. Costello. It was more of a mob than a picket hne, wasn't it?
Mr. James. It was an army camp. I will put it that way — ^it.
was an army camp. They actually needed to camp overnight and it
was cooler in November there. The evenings used to get down to
around 25 above zero and in the desert that is quite cool. They
were improvising blankets with pieces of canvas and they built
small pup tents and camped there overnight with their fires.
Mr. Costello. They set up an entirely new housing project of
tneir own encircling the jail?
Mr. James. Yes; that is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Is the -lay-out of the camp such that that jail is
visible from the administration building?
Mr. James. Visible at a distance, Congressman. It is a half mile.
Mr. MuNDT. I mean can the jail be seen from the administration
building?
UN-A]VIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9099
Mr. James. No; it couldn't be seen from the administration build-
ing. There are barracks in between the administration building. It
is only a one-story building.
Mr. MuNDT. Could the crowd surrounding the jail be seen from
the headquarters of the warehouses of the camp?
Mr. James. They could be heard. They were maldng a racket.
Mr. MuNDT. Could they be heard at the administration building?
Mr. James. Yes; they could.
Mr. CosTELLo. Was the jail isolated to any degree?
Mr. James. No; the jail is right in the center of the camp — right
in the center of it. Only a half a mile away at most. The camp is
exactly a mile square and the sounds of a milling mob could be heard
quite easily.
Mr. Steedman. As a mattej* of fact wasn't the camp which you
mention as being set up around the jail, set up in mihtary fashion?
Mr. James. In my estimation it was laid out in military fashion;
yes. Certainly the tents were in such a way that they were a darn
good imitation of pup tents and they were laid out in rows, and disci-
pline was maintained.
Some of our old Isseis have told me that they served in the Russo-
Japanese War and I think there was enough military brains to lay
out a good mihtary camp. .
Mr. Steedman. Who was in charge of this camp around the jail?
Air. James. There was a de facto committee that ran the strike.
We don't know to this day who was in charge because of the reticence
of these people. We do not know to this day who was the quarter-
back on the Tojo team. It was very difficult to get behind them
because they work by committees.
In other words you might have to knock down six or eight inter-
mediate groups and somewhere in the background maybe some very
innocent looking old-timer, or perhaps an American-born Japanese
would be the one who did it.
Mr. Steedman. Was — — — — ^ involved?
Mr. James. He was. He was on the picket line. I would like
to have that name left out, if you please. That man is being investi-
gated.
Mr. Steedman. Wasn't he in actual charge of the so-called picket
line or mob around the camp?
Mr. James. He was in charge of one shift.
Mr. Steedman. Of the picket line?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; of the pickets and helped in the organization
of the laying out of the camp.
^ is 60 years old. He is a former Russo-Japanese
War veteran. You can use that reference but don't use his name.
Mr. Steedman. Did he have a reputation at the camp as having
been a colonel in the Japanese Army?
Mr. James. He went by the title of Rilca Gun Sho Tai, which is the
Japanese equivalent for colonel, rika means land; gun is army; Sho is
commander, and tai is the equivalent of colonel in the Japanese Army.
Mr. MuNDT. In your civihan capacity, Mr. James, as a reporter
for newspapers before the war, did you ever see a strike?
Mr. James. Yes, I have.
» Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
9100 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. From a reportorial standpoint, if you had been
assigned to this beat, what would you have reported to have taken
place at this camp? Would you have reported it as a "disturbance"?
Mr. James. I covered a launching at one time where I saw a milling
crowd. I would call it a "milling crowd."
Maybe these gentlemen will disagree with me. It was a crowd
in an angry mood and it developed very definitely into an antiM^hite
feeling. Let us put it on that basis.
Mr. MuNDT. A belligerent crowd?
Mr. James. Belligerent, yes. I felt at no time any personal
danger there. I think most of us felt that way because that is the
smarter thing to do. You assume an attitude, knowing darn well it
is a question of bluff, that no one is going to do you any harm.
Mr. CosTELLO. It was sufficiently serious, however, that anything
might have developed out of it on a moment's notice.
Mr. James. It could have blown up like that. Of course it was
just filled with potential dynamite.
Mr. CosTELLO. If the right thing had happened, there would have
been destruction of property or violence to persons?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. On November 19, did you see pictures being
carried of American soldiers with ropes around their necks?
Mr. James. I saw one picture in front ot block 21 mess hall and
so did Mr. Evans — a picture made on a torn section of a cardboard
carton of an American soldier hung in effigy with a rope around his
neck.
I don't laiow who put it up. We were never able to identify it.
Mr. CosTELLO. "A crayon drawing?
Mr. James. Yes; rather crude.
Mr. MuNDT. Was thepicture tacked to the Avail?
Mr. James. The picture had been tacked to the wall, yes. It was
on heavy cardboard such as you would get from a big carton. As I
recall it was about this long and about this high [indicating].
Mr. MuNDT. A placard?
Mr. James. Yes; with Japanese expressions on it. I was never
able to get those. I tried to get those but the picture was definitely
of an American man in uniform, in olive drab Ivhaki of om- soldiers,
and there were no slant eyes on his face, so I presume it wasn't repre-
senting a Japanese.
Mr. MuNDT. You had no reason to assume that they were shedding
tears over the particular status of that unfortunate American soldier?
Mr. James. None whatever.
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will recess until 2 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 12:40 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., of the
same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The hearing was resumed, pursuant to the taking of the noon
recess, at 2 p. m.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order, and Mr. Steedman,
will you proceed with the questioning of the witness?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTEiS 9)01
TESTIMONY OF NORRIS W. JAMES— Resumed
Mr. Steedman. Directing your attention to the riot that occurred
at Poston beginning on November 18, 1942, was the Japanese lan-
guage used exclusively by the rioters or strikers during that period?
Mr. James. It was, Mr. Steedman, in the speeches that were given
ill front of the jail in Poston No. 1. It replaced English entirely on
the posters used throughout the camp and all of the official transac-
tions of the de facto government of Poston. English had entirelv
disappeared .
Mr. Steedman. Had the Japanese been using the English language
on their posters and on billboards and m their conversations at the
project prior lo the strike or riot?
Mr. James. To a negligible extent — 'pardon me — did you say
English or Japanese?
Mr. Steedman. English.
Mr. James. English was the predominant language in Poston up to
the time of the trouble.
Mr. Steedman. Had they used Japanese in preparing their posters
prior to that tunc?
Mr. James. Very, very seldom; perhaps to advertise a show in
Japanese but never for public announcements.
Mr. Steedman. Has any one translated the posters that were used?
Mr. James. We were unable to secure translations after this trouble
was over — the trouble — the posters disappeared.
Mr. Steedman. And no one knows what was on the posters?
Mr. James. No one knows what was on them; no.
Mr. Steedman. Did you recognize any of the Japanese characters
on the posters?
Mr. James. I recognized a few of them, but because of my Ihnited
knowledge of the language itself, I was unable to make any trans-
lation.
Captain McFadden was there, and he was not conversant with the
language either.
!Mr. Steedman. Did you question the friendly Japanese at Poston
regarding the written characters on the posters.
Mr. James. I rocall that I had several conversations; yes. The
character of most of the posters was directions on the strike — orders
as to how many should report from each block.
I think I told you this morning that there was a fixed number of
pickets that had to be supplied by each block for each shift. They
maintained pickets 24 hours around the clock, around the Poston jail.
Mr. Steedman. Were these picketers secured by intimidation and
threat of violence?
Mr. James. In certain instances I am sure they were. I can't
speak for all instances. I do know that in block 6, according to the
testimony given me by a Japanese woman down there, she and her
group were locked in the mess hall for a period of — the greater portion
of a day while they were receiving instructions from Juro Omori, a
strike leader now confined in the Santa Fe, N. Mex., internment
camp, and told exactly what they would have to do or else.
If you want the name of the woman 1 will give it to you off the
record. Her name is ,^ formerly of Bakersfield, Calif.
» Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
62626 — 43— vol. 15 18
9102 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS
Mr. .CosTELLO. I might state for the press that name is not to be
used; it is off the record and I request you do not take down or use
the name.
Mr. Steedman. ■ ^ had been friendly to the adminis-
tration of the camp?
Mr. James. She had been one of my interpreters at the intake
center which I described this morning. She had been in charge of
making the prehminary check on the personnel as they came in to
see what immediate jobs they could be placed in. I would like to
also put in the record for further reference, that in Bakersfield, Calif.,
she had acted as an interpreter for the district attorney and also for
the F. B. I. officials in Kern County.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated this morning that the Japanese
had access to a loudspeaking system or public-address system at the
center. How did they obtain that system?
Mr. James. I don't think I testified to that this morning, but in
this particular mstance — I am not very sure how they got it. It
could have been secured in one of two ways. However, that loud-
speaker system was brought in for use in recreational work at the
project or it was shipped in piecemeal and assembled.
I would like to make clear m the record that during this period of
the disturbance, and prior to it, roughly from May, the early part of
May, through these disturbances, there was no inspection of parcel-
post mail that came in. That came about subsequent to when the
military police, acting on orders from General DeWitt, instituted a
check of contraband coming through the mail — contraband consisting
of such things as shcrt-wave radios or parts thereof, alcoholic liquor,
firearms, cameras, and things of that sort.
Mr. Steedman. Were the items such as you have just mentioned,
alcoholic liquors and short-wave radios and weapons, being shipped
into the camp prior to that order?
Mr. James. Not to my loiowledge; they could have been.
Mr. Steedman. Then why did General DeWitt go to the trouble of
putting this order into effect?
Mr. James. As they came in from the coast and were processed
through the intake centers, their belongings were searched by the
military police. There was a baggage inspection^ as they came in,
Mr. Steedman, but in that period which I have just described, roughly
from the middle of May to the period of the disturbance, there was
no check on parcel-post packages.
Mr. Steedman. If any check was made, the Japanese were doing it,
were they not?
Mr. James. Not in the post office. The post office was run entirely
by Caucasians under the Post Office Department.
Mr. Stpiedman. But other material coming in by freight or express
was handled by Japanese, was it not?
Mr. James. It was being checked by Japanese, that is correct.
Mr. Steedman. And that is just about the same as having no check
at all, isn't it?
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Now, returning to the public-address system in
the center. Was the loudspeaker system used in front of the jail
during the period of the riot?
Mr. James. It was.
» Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
UIs'-AMERICAX PROPAGAXDA ACTIVITIES 9103
Mr. CosTELLo. May I inquii-e there— we had some testimony to
the effect that possibly the loudspeaker was brought in there through
some church organization.
Mr. James. It might have been, Mr. Costello. 1 am not sme
where that loudspeaker came from. It may possibly have belonged
to a church organization. It may have belonged to one of the recrea-
tional units.
Mr. Costello. It was not acquhed by the project itself for project
purposes?
Mr. James. That is correct. It was not Government property
because at that time to my knowledge we had no Government loud-
speaker system within Poston.
On the other hand it was not contraband. I want to make it clear
the loudspeaker system was not contraband under the terms of Gen-
eral De\Yitt's order.
Mr. Costello. It was set up in the camp and the authorities knew
of its existence?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese strikers or rioters take charge
of the loudspeaker system?
Mr. James. They produced it and used it.
Mr. Steedman. Did they commandeer it?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. What did they use the public-address system for?
Mr. James. They used it for speeches in Japanese — speeches of
various kmds, instructions to the strikers or oratory of one sort or
another and also for playing the records, canned records of Japanese
music.
Mr. Steedman. What type of Japanese music was played over the
loudspeaker system?
Mr. James. Some of .the most famous marching songs used by the
Imperial Japanese Army units.
Mr. Steedman. Japanese marching music?
Mr. James. Japanese marching music; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Would you recognize the Kimagawa if you were
to hear it played?
Mr. James. I would.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether the Kimagawa was played
during the period of the strike?
Mr. James. I believe it was. I could tell you if I heard it, Mr.
Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. If you heard it plaj^ed on a record you would
recognize it?
Mr. James. I would recognize it if it had been played at Poston.
Mr. Costello. We might insert in the record at this point that
that is the Japanese national anthem.
Mr. James. Yes. As I say, I would want to hear it to refresh
my memory — hear it played again.
'Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, we will make arrangements to
have it played.
Mr. James. I don't want to go on record as sa3nng the Japanese
national anthem was played, but I can identify it if it was one of
the numbers that was played.
9104 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS
Mr. CosTELLO. The comnfittee will make arrangements to play it
and then you may make a statement at that time as to whether or
not it is one of the numbers you heard played during the riot.
Mr. Steedman. But Japanese military music, martial music, was
"played over the loudspeaker system during the riot at the center?
Mr. James. During the -night and days of the trouble I described
at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. Did they use the loudspeaker system all night?
Mr. James. Most of the night, too.
Mr. Steedman. To keep the people awake; is that it?
Mr. James. Supposedly.
Mr. Steedman. Did it keep the people awake?
Mr, James. Yes, we lost some sleep.
Mr. Steedman. Was there a curfew in force at the camp at that
time?
Mr. James. No; we never had a curfew at Poston.
Mr. Steedman. Prior to the strike did the project administration
permit loud noises during the night?
Mr. James. That, I believe, and again I am expressing an opinion;
I believe that was left to the Japanese. I believe in some blocks,
individual blocks, they did set up rules and regulations that radios
should be turned off or phonographs should be turned off after such
and such a time in the evening — along about 11 o'clock so the old-
tjmers could get some sleep, but no curfew was set up by the project
director.
Mr. Steedman. Were all the self-imposed rules broken during the
strike or riot?
Mr. James. That is right. It was complete political and economic
chaos in Poston center during the riot.
Mr. Steedman. Were the Caucasian employees able to secure sleep
during the period of this strilce?
Mr. James. Yes; we managed to sleep as well as one could under
the circumstances.
Mr. Costello. I might inquire here, did you listen to any of the
speeches that were being made over the broadcasting system?
Mr. James. I did. In one instance I had a translator or inter-
preter along with mo, .^ Do you want to go into that?
Mr. Steedman. I would lilvc to go into that a little later.
Mr. Costello. Can you tell us the nature of the remarks broad-
cast over the system?
Mr. James. Yes. This speech was made not only during the
period of the stril^e but 2 or 3 days afterward. It was made in
block — it was in the 40 's. For the sake of the record I will say in
block 44. It was made by, I wiU give the name and then request the
name be kept out of the record, it was given by .^
Mr. Costello. That name is off the record,
Mr, James. — ^ is a man 57 years old. He is a bachelor.
He arrived in Poston May 23, 1942, from Delano, Calif,
The substance of 's ^ talk was this: That Japan was
going to win the war; that he officially represented the Imperial
Japanese Govermnent in Poston. That all Japanese who sided with
him in his program would be rewarded with 10,000 yen after the war
s Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9105
was ovor, presuming: that the Imperial Japanese Government was
going to win.
Unknown to me at the time Mr. John Evans had his own inter-
preter and translator in there and proceeded to get a digest of this
talk cither when ^ ^lade it from the platform or when
he subsequently made the same speech in block 44 — a similar version
of 's ^ speech.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you hear him give that speech during the strike?
Mr. James. This was given during the strike and also given a few
days after the strike and was given a week or so later.
This is important because it ties in with Poston No. 2 by one
.^ And that name is off the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. Keep that name off the record.
Mr. James. In Poston No. 2 » ^^^s subsequently
picked up by the F. B. I. and is now in the Santa Fe, N. Mex., intern-
mejit camp, but he gave practically the same address that
^ gave .
Air. MuNDT. \\hat was the reaction of the Japanese audience to
that speech?
Mr. James. It was rather diflScult to tell, Congressman. I think
I can best describe it by saying that the emotions of the camp were
pretty largely that of an antiwhite attitude. I can't go any farther
than that in describing how many people he converted or how well
the promise of 10,000 yen reward clicked.
Mr. MuNDT. Did the Japanese cheer and applaud his statements?
Mr. James. They are not great on that. They will yell a few
"banzais" and it is difficult to tell what they are cheering for. He
got a very good reception.
Mr. MuNDT. And yom- reaction was what?
Mr. James. I would say in the Issei and Kibei cu'cles — that is fh'st
generation and American born and educated in Japan, it was pretty
well received. The Nisei, that is those born in this country and can't
understand the language, didn't know what the score was all about.
They were just drawn into the thing emotionally on this wave of anti-
Caucasianism — anti-Hakujin attitude that developed in the camp.
Mr. MuNDT. But some of them could have been coerced into it?
Mr. James. Yes; that is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were there many of the Nisei who have been
educated in this country who do not understand the Japanese langu-
age?
Mr. James. There are a great many who cannot read or write the
language.
Mr. Costello. But do they speak it?
Mr. James. They can speak a little of it but not enough to, perhaps,
understand a bit of the oratory such as ^ went into.
Mr. ]VIuNDT. Is ^ also in an internment camp now?
Mr. James. ^ is not in an internment camp. He is in
Poston.
For the sake of the record I would like to say that at the time, from
the period when '^ came in on May 2.3, 1942, up to the
time of the general strike or walk-out or disturbance, '
was employed at Poston as a goh — that is a Japanese carfl game, at
$16 a month. I don't know what his present wage is.
» Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
9106 UN-AMERICAK. PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. He was employed to instruct them in the playing
of cards?
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is that a part of the recreational facilities of the
camp?
Mr. James. I wouldn't knoM-; that is apparently it.
Mr. MuNDT. Was there any disciplinary action taken against hina
for his inflammatory speeches?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. MuNDT. And he has not been segregated from the other
Japanese up to this time, so far as you know?
Mr. James. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. Had you completed the substance of the speech he
gave?
Mr. James. Yes. As I sa}', Mr. Evans also had a translation.
We compared notes afterward and he, I believe, gave his version of the
speech to Mr. Head or reported it to him — ^the gist of — — 's ^
speech before the Japanese.
Mr. Costello. You don't know whether Mr. Evans spoke to him
about the speech?
Mr. James. I don't know.
Mr. Costello. You wouldn't know whether Mr. Head called him
into the office to discuss the matter with him?
Mr. James. I don't know; but I do know — ^ has been
continuously investigated by the F. B. I.
Mr. Costello. You say he repeated that speech in block 44?
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. Costello. How manj' days after?
Mr. James. I should say a week, about a week after that.
Mr. Costello. About a week?
Air. James. Early in December. It would be the first week in
December or the last week in November that ^ repeated
that speech.
Mr. Costello. That would be after the trouble at Poston had
quieted down?
Mr. James. That is correct. ^ was occupying a posi-
tion of importance with the de facto government thrown up after the
strike.
Mr. Costello. If Mr. Evans or Mr. Head spoke to him about the
speech and asked him to refrain from repeating it and so on, it evi-
dently had no effect.
Mr. James. It might have been that ^ was called on
his speech by Mr. Evans or Mr. Head — I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Did any of the other ieadei's of the strike movement
speak over the loudspeaker system?
Mr. James. They did.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what the substance of their speeches
was?
Mr. James. I do not. I did not Avant to expose my interpreter to
any harm. She is still off the record. It is not known that she worked
for me and I have protected her ever since. She is one of the women
who knoA^s the liighly intricate language and is capable of giving a
true version of what went on.
3 Kame stricken from the reeord at the request of Chairman Costello.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9107
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Avbethor or not any of the speeches
made over the hnuispeaker system were inflammatory?
Mr. James. 1 judiie they were from what I have heard.
Mr. Steedman. That is from talking to Japanese Avho understand
the Japanese language?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. When I say ''inflammatory," were the speeches
infiammatoiy against the project administration?
Mr. James. Yes; inflammatory against the project administration.
I know that one speech was made by one ^
Mr. CosTELLo. And that name is off the record?
Mr. James. A farmer formerly from Ontario, Calif., a Kibei,
which was inflammatory and criticizing Mr. Head.
Mr. CosTELLo. Was there criticism directed merely to the project
administration heads and the administration project, or did it go
beyond that to other Americans?
Mr. James. No; entirely to the project administration.
— ^ speech, to the best of my recollection, urged the Japanese —
that is those who were hstening to him and understood Japanese, to
side with him and his group; that they were prepared to take over
the administration. That was the basis of his speech.
Air. Costello. It was the gist of his talk to incite the Japanese to
take command of the camp and assume control of the camp?
Mr. James. Yes; not necessarily through force. It was not
necessarily an implication of force but tln-ough showing force they
believed they could force the administration to give thern muck more
control — in effect complete control of the camp.
As we get into it later on and as I show you in the minutes of the
de facto government, we will see what — ^ position was.
Mr. Steedman. Where wei'e the Japanese police when this was
going on?
Mr. James. The police at Poston No. 1 did not walk out during
the strike; they were still on duty but they were of extremely ques-
tionable help during the strike. Most of the time they sat in the
jail. That is about all thej^ did.
Mr. Steedivian. Did the}^ take sides with the strikers?
Mr. jAMEg, That is rather hard to say. They were definitely
sympathetic to the strikers.
I think the Internal Security Office of Mr. Miller could describe
to 3^ou two or thi'ee espisodes where members of the police force
showed a very definite anti-Caucasian attitude toward him person-
ally. I know he is in possession of that material. I hesitate to pass
it on to you second hand.
Mr. Steedman. There has been testimony before the committee
that the center at Poston employs one judo instructor?
Mr. James. There are a great many more than that.
Mr. Steedman. More than one?
Mr. James. Oh, yes.
Mr. Steedman. And now we have an instance where the project
is employing a goh instructor, which is a Japanese card game.
Do 3-0U think the people who emploj^ed instructors to teach goh
and judo knew what they were doing?
' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
9108 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. James. Well, it isn't my province to stand in judgment of
them, Mr. Steedman, but I believe at one time as high as somewhere
between 80 and 100 judo instructors were at Poston.
Mr. MuNDT. Between 80 and 100 judo instructors?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Teaching judo to about how many Japanese?
Mr. James. I have no way of knowing.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't Imow how big the classes were?
Mr. James. No.
Mr. MuNDT. That is between 80 and 100 judo instructors were paid
$16 a month?
Mr. James. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. To teach the Japanese a form of military training?
Mr. James. No; I want to qualify that. I say the form of judo
that was given at Poston, that is the form of judo, resembles the form
of judo that is given in the middle schools of Japan, the middle schools
of Japan being those where military training is compulsory.
Mr. MuNDT. Certainly it is not the entire training of Japanese
soldiers but it is a part of their training?
Mr, James. Yes, very definitely.
Mr. Costello. Do you feel the teaching of judo at these camps was
an ill-advised program and it was not purely for recreational purposes
but partially from a military standpoint?
Mr. James. I tliink it was. Another thing that moved them further
and further toward things culturally and spiritually to Imperial
Japan.
Mr. Costello. It tended then to keep the Japanese closely allied
with the Government of Japan?
Mr. James. With the mother country, sure.
Mr. Costello. To keep the point of view of Japanese people?
Mr. James. That is right.
Mr. Costello. Which tended to alienate them from an American
attitude?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. According to that we were spending about $1,500 a
month of the taxpayers' money of this country to train these Japanese
in the methods of Japanese warfare. That makes leaf raking under
the W. P. A. a virtuous expenditure by comparison.
Mr. James. It is difficult to give the number of people that were
employed.
Mr. Steedman. But the project records would indicate the exact
number?
Mr. James. They would.
Mr. Steedman. Is it your information that the Indian Service has
gone to great lengths to perpetuate or to keep alive Indian culture on
the various Indian reservations?
Mr. James. Decidedly. I don't want to pose as an expert on Indian
affairs, but having seen a number of their published works on a num-
ber of the reservations — Navajo Reservation, for example, that has
been one of the things they have been very proud of — perpetuating
Indian culture and recording it and encouraging the Indians to keep
up their tribal forms.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9109
Mr. Steedman. By reason of that do you think the Indian Service
employees who went to Poston thought:
Well, we have another minoritj'' group here and thej- have a culture; I(.t us
perpetuate that culture; let us hire these judo experts and goh experts.
^Ir. James. Yes; but that is a rather hard question to answer but
I think there was a very definite trend on the part of a few of the
Indian Service people, both in Washington and at the project, who
probabl}^ thought it would be a very nice thing to perpetuate some
of the things, culturally, Japanese, such as their paintings and judo.
Air. Steedman. Do you think the center authorities had any idea
of what these various tilings, such as judo and goh, represented to the
Japanese?
Mr. James. I think they had not the slightest idea of what they
represented. I know certainly that is true of judo.
Air. Steedman. Air. Chairman, I have a memorandum dated
October 6, 1942, addressed to Air. H. H. Townsend, transportation
and supply officer, signed by Dr. Allies Carey, which I would like to
offer in evidence and read into the record.
Air. CosTELLO. Was this memorandum supplied to you by Air.
Townsend?
Air. Steedman. It was.
Air. Costello. As a part of the record he has submitted to you?
Air. Steedman. That is correct.
Air. Costello. You maj" introduce it into the record at this point.
Air. Steedman. I quote:
This afternoon I brought Air. Nishino into your office for an interview. Mr.
Nishiuo represents the Kabuki Drama Society which is presenting their classical
production on the newlj^ erected Shibai stage opposite block Xo. 4. The organi-
zation is requesting the privilege of borrowing 100 folding chairs for this occasion.
They would like to get the chairs tomorrow afternoon, keeping them till tomorrow
night. They will return the chairs Thursday morning.
I am sure that this is a very worthy undertaking and that the members of the
Kabuki Drama Society will appreciate any help that we can render in making
this production a success. I am writing this in place of Mr. Nishino.
And that is signed, "Dr. Aliles E. Carey by A. Al."
Air. Costello. \^Tiat is the date of that letter?
Air. Steedman. The letter is dated October 6, 1942.
Air. Costello. ^'Vliat was Dr. Carey's position?
Air. James. Dr. Care}^ was superintendent of the Poston schools.
He was formerly principal of AIcKinley High School of Honolulu.
Air. Steedman. Are you familiar with the Kabuki Drama Society?
Air. James. Yes, sir; I am.
Air. Steedman. Will you tell the committee something about it?
Air. James. The Kabuki Drama Society plays are a series of
ancient plays, several hundred years old, tying in with the era of
feudal Japan.
Alan}^ of them glorify the warrior — the Samuri. In fact all of them
have tliat basis of glorification of men in arms — blood and thunder.
In some cases the glorification of Jimmu Tenno, who is one of the
ancestral gods from whom the long line of Emperors trace their
lineage.
He was an ancestrial god who descended to earth to establish the
ancient dynasty from which the present member, Hirohito, traces his
lineage.
9110 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Do these plays have as their central theme Japan-
ese culture?
Mr. James. Japanese culture in the main, IVIr. Steedman, but
there also again you might make a comparison with Shakespeare.
They occupy, with the exception of the militaristic spirit that is
usually found in the Kabuki plays, they are regarded by the Japanese
as Shakespeare is to us. They are regarded as classics but that is
because they are so interwoven with the Japanese law and much of
their law is tied in with the warrior tradition of the Yamato race.
Mr. Steedman. Glorifying war?
Mr. James. That is right, glorifying war.
Mr. Steedman. Do you understand the term Shibai?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Steedman. Will you explain it?
Mr. James. Shibai is largely used to mdicate a company producing
plays in the vernacular; that is, in the Japanese language. A Shibai
stage is a particular type of stage for tlie production of Japanese
plays.
"Shibai" can also mean a club, a dramatic club, and if you make
a reference to a Shibai play, you have to further define it — is it a
Kabuki play or is it one of the modern Japanese plays?
Mr. Steedman. Is it your understanding that these plays are
closely integrated with Shinto worship?
Mr. James. I don't think so, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. You don't think it has anythmg to do with Shinto?
Mr. James. With the organized Shinto worship; no.
Mr. Steedman. These plays simply have a tendency to glorify the
Japanese race?
Mr. James. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that is a worthy undertaking?
Mr. James. Again you are asking a question dealing on project
management. In my personal view; no.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to return to a reading
of the memorandum that was introduced into the record this morn-
ing, regarding the strike or riot at Poston.
Mr. CosTELLO. Very well.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
11:30 a. m.: Mr. H. W. Smith, chief fiscal officer, telephones United States
Attorney Flynn in Phoenix, inquires what court the Uchida case should be referred
to. Mr. Flynn informs him that the superior court, Yuma County, has proper
jurisdiction. Mr. Miller, internal security officer, telephones County Attorney
Byrne, Yuma County, has proper jurisdiction. Mr. Miller, internal security
officer, telephones County Attorney Byrne, Yuma, apprises him of Poston sit-
uation, and was informed Sheriff Norman would arrive in Poston following day.
Mr. James. I would like to point out that at that time, Noveniber
19, 1942, Mr. Evans said they had sufficient evidence to hold Uchida.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
At a staff meeting, presided over by Mr. Evans, it is decided to release George
Fujii since Mr. Miller did not have sufficient evidence to warrant holding him-
In the case of Uchida, it is decided that sufficient evidence has been disclosed tc
warrant holding him.
3:30 p. m.: Mr. Evans meets with a committee of 12 evacuees from camp
No. 2 and camp No. 3, who had been elected to act as intermediaries between
the administration and a committee of 72, elected by the residents of Poston 1.
It is disclosed that this committee of 72 is composed of 2 residents from each
block. Mr. Evans tells the committee he proposed to release Mr. Fujii and to
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVI'tlES 9111
turn Mr. Vchida over to the county of Yuma. The committee of 12 then passes
this information to the committee of 72, and then meets with Mr. Evans to tell
him why they do not think this would be acceptable to the people of Poston. Mr.
Evans then ji;oes before the committee of 72 and reads a prepared statement con-
cerning the disposition of Fujii and Uchida. Immediately afterward he ordered the
Poston No. 1 police force to release Fujii. The reaction of individual members
of the committee of 72 indicated they did not approve the holding of Uchida and
that great resistance would be put up to any attempt to move him from the
community.
4:45 p. m.: Duncan Mills, regional administrative officer of War Relocation
Authority, San Francisco, called at the request of Col. Karl Bendetson, regarding
the situation at Poston. Mr. Mills was informed by Mr. Nelson of the situation
as it existed. Mr. Nelson also told Mr. Mills that the reason Mr. Evans had not
advised either General De"^Vitt or Colonel Bendetson was due to the fact that Mr.
Evans had been informed b}- the two Federal Bureau of Investigation investigators
that full details of the Poston disturbances had been sent to the Western Defense
Command through the offices of G-2, Phoenix.
November 20, 9 a. m. : Sheriff Norman, of Yuma County, arrived. There was
sufficient evidence to warrant holding Uchida by the county officials but he would
not take further action unless requested by the project.
Mr. Steedman. Before reading the paragi^aph "9:30 a. m., Novem-
ber 20," I would like to ask you if you know Dr. Alexander Leighton?
Mr. James. I do.
Mr. Steedman. What is his position at Poston?
Mr. James. Well, Dr. Alexander Leighton was a lieutenant in the
United States Navy — that is he has a ranking of lieutenant in the
United States Navy.
He was assigned to the project, apparently by the Navy Depart-
ment, at the request of the Indian Service to act as head of the bureau
of sociological research.
He is an anthropologist, I believe, of national reputation and has
been, I believe, making studies of the Japanese at Poston; and he is
still there.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is he a doctor of medicine or science?
Mr. James. Science — no, I will take that back. I think he also
has an M. D. degree, too — I am sure he ha^.
Mr. CosTELLo. Is his conmiission in the Navy a regular commission
or is he a Reserve Officer?
Mr. James. He wears a regular uniform in Poston. He wears his
uniform and is on active duty. I believe he is a close friend of Rear
Admiral Ross Mclntire.
Mr. Steedman. Have you seen him wearmg an Army uniform?
Mr. James. No.
Mr. Steedman. The first time you saw him he was wearing a Navy
uniform?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. And has always worn a Navy imiform?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Just where does he fit into the admmistrative pic-
ture at Poston center?
Mr. James. I am not sure but I beUeve he is probably the unofficial
representative of Commissioner Collier of the Indian Service.
Mr. Steedman. A liaison man between the project and Com-
missioner Collier?
Mr. James. That would be about as close a definition as I could give;
and also engaged in collecting data on the Japanese. He had made
similar studies of the Indians.
Mr. Steedman. Is he compihng a book?
9112 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. James. I don't know, Mr. Steedman. He is gathering data
and presumably it goes to the Navy Department as well as the Com-
missioner of Indian Affairs, Mr, Collier,
Mr. Steedman, What is the attitude of the Japanese toward Dr.
Leighton?
Mr. James. I don't know.
Mr, Steedman (Continuing reading from the memorandum, the
item under November 20):
9:30 a. m.: Dr. Alexander Leighton, in a long-distance telephone call, described
the situation to Commissioner of Indian Affairs, John Collier, Washington, D. C.
As his pnrsonal opinion, Dr. Leighton said he believed one of the important ele-
ments in the Poston disturbances was that the people looked upon this as a test
case as to whether or not thej^ were going to be permitted to settle their own
internal affairs. He recommended that Uchida be released to the community on
the understanding that he be tried there. Mr. Collier said he would consider the
matter and call back later.
10:30 a. m.: Telephone call to Mr. Head in Salt Lake City is completed and
project director and Air. Gelvin start return trip to Poston.
11 a, m. : Commissioner Collier calls Mr. Leighton from Washington, says
he has talked with Secretary Ickes who has discussed Poston disturbances with
the War Department. Commissioner Collier instructs Poston administration to
maintain status quo until further advised.
2 p. m.: Commissioner Collier and Mr, McKaskell, in telephonic conversations
with Mr. Evans and Dr. Leighton, report that Secretary Ickes has spoken with
Assistant Secretary of War McCloy, and that it is Mr, Ickes' opinion that Uchida
be released to the community with the understanding that a formal trial be held.
Commissioner Collier said Secretary Ickes did not make this in the form of an
order to the Poston administration because he felt the matter should be left to the
judgment of the acting project director. Mr. Evans pointed oUt to Mr. McKaskell
and Mr. Collier some of the serious consequences likely to arise from turning
Uchida back to the community, but he said he approved it providing Mi, Collier
and Mr. McKaskell understood these possible consequences. Mr. Collier
wanted to impress upon the Poston evacuees that if they did not keep their end
of the bargain in regard to a formal trial it would be the last time the Department
of the Interior would be able to intercede with the War Department in their behalf.
Mr, Steedman, Who i,s Mr, AlcKaskell?
Mr. James. Mr. Joseph McKaskell is Assistant Commissioner of
Indian Affairs in Washington, D, C.
Mr. Costelto, While you are on that, the Department of the
Interior, tlu^ough Mr, Ickes, was appealing to the War Department on
behalf of the release of Uchida to the Japanese?
Mr. James. I think there were consultations between Mr. Ickes
and the Assistant Secretary of War.
Mr, Costello. You don't know whether Mr. Myer was consulted
at all regarding this situation?
Mr. James. I don't loiow. I presume he was advised of it through
Commissioner Collier.
\!r. Costello, But he had left Poston and was possibly up in
Salt Lake City at the tune?
Mr, James. That is correct; yes.
Mr, Costello. You don't know whether anyone at the camp
endeavored to contact him as head of the W, R. A. to determine
what was to be done in the situation?
Mr. James. I believe it was impossible to get in touch with Mr,
Myer. Telephonic contact was only made witli Mr. Gelvin. They
were on the train on the date that was mentioned in that chronology.
That was the first time we had a telephone call to them.
Mr, Costello. And it was for that reason they went directly to
Mr, Colher?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9113
!>.ir. James. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Who is the assistant to Mr. Myer in Washington,
D. C..'
Mr. James. I am trying to think who was at that time. I am not
sure at all.
Mr. MuNDT. The name isn't so important. Was he with Mr.
Myer?
Mr. James. I am not sure.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman (reading the balance of the paragraph dated "No-
vember 20, 2 p. m.):
He-
meaning Dr. Leighton —
also mentioned the matter of the fence around the project and reported that the
matter had been taken up with Secretary McCloy and as a result an order has
been issued to the Army engineers to stop construction work pending new arrange-
ments concerning the location of said fence. Mr. McKaskell said they would
clear with W. R. A., Washington, regarding procedure. Both Mr. Collier and
Mr. McKaskell endorsed all previous steps taken by the project administration
in dealing with the Poston disturbances.
2:30 p. m. : Mr. Evans. called a staff meeting to discuss ways and means of
starting negotiations with the evacuees. Mr. John Meano, of camp No. 2,
attended this meeting and was told of the conversations with W ashington. He
said that without telling the recommendation of the Indian Office in Washington,
he would endeavor to get the evacuees to begin negotiations with the administra-
tion on the basis of a trial in the community. He strongly advised against any
general aimouncement to the evacuees. This was approved by Mr. Evans and
Mr. Meano left to begin negotiations.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Army engineers contemplate building a
fence aroimd the center at Poston?
Mr. James. Yes; the erection of a fence at Poston and at all other
relocation projects. It was entirely a problem of the Army, tying in
with the external security problems that the military police units were
confronted with.
At Poston, as I understand it, there has been discussions din-ing
the month of May and right up to the time of the disturbance, as to
just what was to be the boundaries of the Colorado River project and
they had not been' defined.
The Army wanted them close to the camps and the project admin-
istration and the Bureau of Indian Aft'au-s in Washington, wanted a
great deal more space included and there was this series of consulta-
tions, apparently going on in Washington, as to the location of the
fence.
Mr. Steedman, Did the Japanese at the center object to the
location of the fence as planned by the Army engineers?
Mr. James. The Japanese didn't know where the fence was going
to be. The objections came from members of the staff.
Mr. Steedman. Membci*s of the Poston staff?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the Japanese objected
to the fence that was being built around No. 1?
Mr. James. As the fences were being built there were a number of
objections; yes.
Sir. Steedman. What form did the objections take?
Mr. James. Largely by word of mouth, committees calling on Mr.
Head, committees protesting. I don't recall any petitions put out by
9114 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
the Japanese not to have any fences, for example, or to move the
boundaries or' move the location of the fence, but I do recall there
were delegations that called on the project director in protest of the
particular location of the fence.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Army engineers have trouble with the
evacuees about tearing down the fence that they were building?
Mr. James. They did.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please describe the nature of that trouble?
Mr. James. In Poston No. 3, the fence was being erected early in
November, and after it had been up 2 or 3 days, in certain locations
the wire would be down and paths would be cut out into the desert
wilderness. It was a matter of convenience with them. And in
some cases I imagine it was an attempt on their part to show their
disapproval of the fence and what to them meant, apparently, further
confinement.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was there any particular place outside the fence
to which the Japs might want to go, such as down to the river, or
something of that kind?
Mr. James. Yes; there were locations like that.
Mr. Costello. And for that reason the fence might have been
inconvenient for them?
Mr. James. Yes; I would place it on two bases: Convenience, and
secondly, disapproval of the fence because the fence represented a
sjT^mbol to them.
Mr. Costello. The paths cut there were because a large number of
Japanese might have been going to the river?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. I don't think it was the work of an organized
group. My presumption would be that it was largely the work of
American-born youngsters.
Air. MuNDT. Were there any gates in the fence?
Mr. James. Very few. Now, there was one, as they were originally
lined up there were just two entrances to the camp. Each camp
was to be enclosed and as I recall there were just two entrances to the
camps.
Mr. MuNDT. It involved considerable inconvenience?
Mr. James. These fences by no stretch of the imagination could
be regarded as detention fences. They could be called "cattle
fences." They were only about this high [indicating], with three or
four strands of barb wire. I believe originaUy it was to be five strands
but it was cut down to four, but as far as keeping an able-bodied man
or woman or youngster in the boundary, it would be ridiculous. But
we do have trouble with Indian cattle. There are ranches only 2 or 3
miles away and cattle wander in and eat up the vegetable patches and
there is a need for a fence there, but as far as this type of fence actually
affording a measure of confinement, that is ridiculous.
Mr. MuNDT. From the standpoint of
Mr. James. Psychological confinement; A^es.
Mr. MuNDT. From the standpoint of your experience of over a year
at the relocation center, and in view of the fact of a particular time
like this, it was necessary to confer with so many different officials in
W^ashington, I wonder if you think it is conducive to good management
to have at least three different agencies of the Government in Wash-
ington dividing responsibility for the administration of the relocatioi;
center?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9115
Mr. James. It would certainly seem to me to be the wrong thing.
Common, ordinary horse sense would dictate that a centralized
administration is necessary if we want humane treatment of these
people. Humane treatment dictates quick, strong answers and quick
action.
Mr. MuNDT. I might say for your information that previous wit-
nesses, men employed at the center and on the staff at Poston, have
given the same suggestion.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is there any reason why the Department of the
Interior should have anything to say with reference to this center?
Mr. James. Yes, there is; because under the terms and agreement
signed by Secretary of the Interior Ickes and Milton S. Eisenhower,
in February of 1942, the Poston project was set up under the terms of
that agi'eement. This vast area of land in the potentially fertile
Parker VaUey v»^as to be set aside as a relocation center and the land
was to be leased from the Indians and the Indians in turn were not to
receive any actual cash for the rental of their land, but after the war
they are to receive, under the tenns of this agreement, the buildings
and the appurtenances upon this land.
iMr. CosTELLO. Before Mr. Collier could take any action A\nth the
War Department, he would have to go through Mr. Ickes?
Mr. James. That is correct.
To continue with this agreement: It provides, as I recall, that the
affairs at Poston shall be administered by the Bureau of Indian
Affairs, following the policies of the War Relocation Autl^orit3^
Mr. CosTELLo. Does that same situation apply to other camps not
located on Indian reservations?
Mr. James. No, sir; this is the only one where there is a dual
control.
jMr. MuNDT. There is nothing in such a lease which seems to convey
to Commissioner Collier the authority to determine whether a Japa-
nese should be in jail or out of jail?
Mr. James. It wouldn't seem so to me.
Air. AIuNDT. I would assume that he would be interested only in
the physical equipment and the land.
Air. James. That would seem to be the case.
Air. AIuNDT. It is a far ciy because, assuming 3^ou want a building
in a certain location, because the irrigation project is to be put in a
certain place, to determine whether a man who had been incarcerated
should be pardoned?
Air. James. Yes. Alind you, the evidence shows, I believe the
evidence showed to the best of my knowledge, that Uchida had been
guilty of a felony — an assault with a deadly weapon so, automatically
under the law, that man could not be tried in Poston.
According to my understanding of the law of this country there
are no courts capable of handling such a case in Poston.
Air. CosTELLO. That was the type of offense, however, that was
set up in the regulations as governing the camp which provided that
offenders of that character should be turned over to the regular State
authorities outside the camp?
Air. James. That is correct; automatically he should have been
turned over to the sheriff' — Sheriff Norman, and Sheriff" Norman,
according to the chronology I have presented here, was perfectly
9116 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ready to take him to the Yuma County Court at Yuma if released
by the authorities at Poston.
Mr. CosTELLO. According to all their own rules and regulations
■governing the camp that is the procedure that should have been had
and Uchida should have been turned over to the county authorities
in that locality?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Eberharter. That is also true with respect to Indians on
Indian reservations, is it not? That is, if they commit a crime
against the laws of the Commonwealth they are to be tried in the
county court?
Mr. James. I believe it is, Congressman ; yes. The Indian Service
law does not subordinate the law of the Commonwealth.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much it cost the Government
to change the fence from its original location to the location that the
Japanese desired?
Mr. James. I do not, Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fa6t, I don't
know that the fence was located where the Japanese wanted it. I
rather question that. I think it was where the project administration
wanted it.
Mr. Steedman. But the Japanese objected to the first fence and
it was moved?
Mr. James. Well, whether it was the Japanese that did it, or
persuaded them to move it, I don't know. I think Mr. Head
originally — way back as we were just receiving our Japanese — that
was way back in May last year and Mr. Head was having these
discussions with the Army and the Army engineers as to the location of
that fence.
And I happen to Iniow that from conversations. The Japanese
had very little to say about the location of the fence. It was a dis-
agreement between the Indian Service officials and the Army as to
the location of the fence. .
Mr. Steedman. Did you at any time discuss the location of the
fence with Miss Nell Findley? _ .
Mr. James. No. I was present at a meeting of staff members when
Miss Findley circulated a petition to be forwarded to Commissioner
Collier and to Mr. Dillon Myer and to the President of the United
States, requesting that the fence not be built.
That petition never left Poston to my knowledge. It was signed
and got no further than the project director's office.
It was signed by a good portion of the personnel there.
Mr. Steedman. Did you ever discuss with Miss Findley the
evacuation of the Japanese from the west coast?
Mr. James. Never personally. I have heard her in many talks.
Mr. Steedman. What was her attitude toward the evacuation?
Mr. James. I think she very sincerely believed — we were very
good friends there, I think Miss Findley sincerely believed relocation
was wrong. I remember very well in some of her talks she made
statements such as:
This is my country right or wrong, my country is wrong in this particular and
I am going to try to correct this wrong.
I may say for the record Miss Findley is a very sincere, warm-
hearted lady.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9117
Mr. Steedman. Whenever a question of discipline arose, did Miss
Findley always take the side of the Japanese?
Mr. James. That is correct, she did. She is a maiden lady, an
Irish woman with a great big heart and she looked upon them as
individuals instead of looking upon them as a mass.
Obviously, gentlemen, in a situation as tough as Poston, out there
on the desert, a lusty booming frontier town, you are going to see a
lot of hardships but you will lose respect if you become sympathetic
with individual cases. There are 18,000 Japanese there and if you
start commiserating with a dozen or so, you are going to lose the
respect of the other 18,000.
Air. Steedman. Do you feel proper management of centers of this
character requhes rather stern discipline at the top in order to keep
order and discipline in the center?
Mr. James. That is right. For simple, human decency's sake, I
think you have to have that type of administration. Humane rules,
yes,, but rules that really mean what they say.
Mr. Steedman. You feel that whoever administers the project
should be an administrator and should be forceful in giving his
commands and see that they are carried out?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. I think the personnel at Poston have
attempted to do that, but I think they have been greatly hampered
by the confusion that has existed in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Steedman. Do you feel that very often the head of the project
was unable to carry out his own orders because they might have been
countermanded by officials in Washington?
Mr. James. I think they have tried to do the best job of which
they are capable. Many of them are untrained in the ways of these
people but after all I think they are good Americans. I think some of
them have lost perspective and some of them have reacted in a psycho-
pathic way after being in contact with the people.
I think the biggest handicap has been the direction that they have
received from the top, however.
Mr. Steedman. From the testimony previously given by you, you
indicate the Japanese people themselves expect stern discipline?
Mr. James. They do. It is reflected in their own lives. The
project director is looked upon as the father of that community and if
he doesn't react with the sternness, the benign sternness, if you please,
as the papasan of the family, he loses the respect of the Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. He should give orders directing their lives and the
conduct of the entire community and, as you say, they expect him to
do that, and if he does not he loses face?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And then all the administration loses face by reason
of that?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. You feel also the Japanese live a perfectly happy and
normal life under such a stern directorship?
Mr. James. If given a chance to work out their own economic sal-
vation so as to be free from the taxpayers' money, their pride will be
restored. They are a very proud people. They are very competent
to carve out their own destiny.
Even out there on the desert I feel they would be reasonably con-
tent and happy under wartime restrictions. They are a simi)le people
62626 — 43— vol. 15 19
9118 UjST-amekican propaganda activities
when it comes to the necessities of life, and if given a chance to make
them economically self-supporting they would be happy at Poston and
every other relocation center where there is a chance for a large agri-
cultural project, because most of our Japanese have their roots in the
soil or in processing food.
Mr. CosTELLO. We might have a 5-minute recess for the sake of the
reporter.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee wUl be in order. You may proceed^
Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman (reading again from the memorandum):
2:30 p. m.: Mr. Eva.ns called a staff meeting to discuss ways and means of
starting negotiations with the evacuees. Mr. John Maeno of camp No. 2 attended
this meeting and was told of the conversations with Washington. He said, that
without telling the recommendation of the Indian Office in Washington, he
would endeavor to get the evacuees to begin negotiations with the administration
on the basis of a trial in the community. He strongly advised against any general
announcement to the evacuees. This was approved by Mr. Evans and Mr.
Maeno left to begin negotiations.
Mr, Steedman. Who is Mr. Maeno?
Mr. James. John Maeno is a former Japanese from Los Angeles,
an attorney, and at that time was chairman of the community con-
gress of Poston No. 2.
Mr. Steedman (reading) :
A committee was formed to keep the staff of Caucasian personnel adequately
informed concerning the development of events.
6 p. m.: John Maeno reported back that though there was a good deal of argu-
ment for and against having a trial in the community, it was his opinion that
the people would come around to this. He said that the Committee of Seventy-
two (of which about 60 members had assembled to hear him), decided to take
the matter back to their blocks for evening discussions and agreed to reassemble-
at 10 a. m. tomorrow to discuss it.
November 21, 9 a. m.: In a telephone conversation with Commissioner Collier,
Dr. Leighton inquired if procedures had been cleared with War Relocation
Authority, Washington. He was informed this had not been possible, due to Mr.
Myer's absence in Salt Lake City but that the project director should proceed
as instructed by the Commissioner and if any subsequent controversy should
develop between War Relocation Authority and the Office of Indian Affairs, Mr.
Collier and Mr. McKaskell would assume responsibility.
11:30 a. m.: John Maeno reported to Mr. Evans that Poston No. 1 was holding
a plebiscite concerning whether the people should negotiate for a trial for Uchida
to be held in Poston.
Sometime Saturday morning: The Parker warehouse dock crew of 100 volim-
teer evacuee workers, assigned to unload freight cars, is turned back because of
the tense situation in Parker. Railroad men say a switch engine is not available
to move cars from a spur track to the unloading platform.
5:30 p. m.: John Maeno phones Mr. Evans that conditions are now serious in
Poston No. 2; that he fears that unit may go on a sympathy strike with No. 1;
that he is disappointed in the attitude of the people, and that he has no response
from his. fellow evacuees for an attitude on the proposals for a settlement, and
that he requests another meeting with Mr. Evans.
7:30 p. m.: James Crawford, administrator of Poston No. 2, phones Mr.
Evans that trouble is increasing in this unit. Mr. Evans sends a personal mes-
sage to a mass meeting in Poston No. 2 asking the people to stand pat. Mr.,
Crawford reports that most of the dissension in Poston No. 2 is confined to block
211 and that the leader is Mr. Tachibana. John Maeno reports he cannot keep
his appointment with Mr. Evans.
8 p. m.: The community council of Poston No. 3 meets with Mr. Evans who>
tells them he is hopeful of arriving at a satisfactory solution.
8:15 p. m.: Arrival of Captain McFadden, a representative of Lt. Gen. J. L.
DeWitt.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9119
8:30 p. m.: Summary of events given by Mr. Evans to staff meeting.
9:15 to 11 p. m.: Meeting between Mr. Evans, Dr. Leighton, administrators,
and the ,3 Andrew Sugimoto, and the two other evacuees accom-
panied by three stenographers. ^ opens discussion witii pre-
sentation of Japanese psychology. He says the disturbances in Poston No. 1
have resulted in a mob, that this mob is now trying to establish leaders, that
two such leaders have been elected from every block and that they have affected
an over-all emergency organization. » further says 'that he and his
associates are members of a Committee of Twelve, that 9 members of this com-
mittee represent the quads of Poston No. ) and that the other members are tem-
porary chairman, vice chairman, and secretary. He explains that this Commit-
tee of Twelve and the 72 elected block representatives are endeavoring to gain
control of the mob in order to once again have a peaceful and happy community.
He further says that if they can establish themselves as leaders by securing what
the mob wants, that is the relief of Uchida, then they can unify this mob move-
ment into a more formal organization which can collaborate with the adminis-
tration in establishing law and order.
At the request of Sugimoto, Dr. Leighton explains the administration's position
on law and order, that the matter of the trial of Uchida is in the hands of the au-
thorities of Yuma County, that he had telephoned Mr. Collier and it might be
possible to try Uchida in the community of Poston, but that if this were done it
must be clearly understood: (1) That there would be a trial according to strict
lawful procedure, (2) that there must be improved collaboration with the admin-
istration in project work, an end to strikes and stoppages, an end to the beatings
and terrorism, and (3) if these latter conditions were not fulfilled the Depart-
ment of the Interior would no longer intercede with the War Department, but that
if they w'ere fulfilled the people of Poston would be assured of continued improve-
ments.
^ reply was that this was a fine plan but that he and his asso-
ciates did not believe they could secure an acceptance from the mob.
It was suggseted bj' Mr. Evans and Dr. Leighton that the secondary proposals
embodied in category (3) be reduced to waiting and presented to the project admin-
istration for further discussion.
Mr. Steedman. Since the name of ^ j^as appeared
several times, will you give the committee the background of
Air. James. Very glad to. May I ask the newspaper people to
delete his name from the records.
■ ^ is suspected of being one of the larger-fry leaders
who were not picked up after Pearl Harbor. He came into Poston
from Bakorsfield. He is an alien born in Japan. His roommate in
Poston is — ■ .^
Mr. CosTELLO. How long has he been in this country?
Mr. James. ^ has been here about 3 years.
Mr. OosTELLO. Has been here just as a visitor?
Mr. James. That is right. ^ is 50 years old — the
Nori food Idng of Japan.
Mr. Steedman. You might explain that "Nori" is a specialized
food made of seaweed.
Mr. James. Yes. I have talked with ^ a good many
times with an interpreter.
Perhaps I had better give you a little bit of his fabulous record.
He came to this countr}^ in 1941 to establish it, according to his
testimony, an overseas market for Nori, which has been sold in the
big department stores of Japan and the larger food stores of Japan —
department stores like Mitsui and Mitsubishi, in Tokio.
^ is worth about 17,000,000 yen, a wealthy man — a
very wealthy man according to Japanese estimates of wealth.
3 Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
9120 un-americajs- propaganda activities
He maintains a personnel training school in Nagoya, one of the
larger cities of Japan, where, he told me, he constantly trains 300
people to work in his organization.
He has factories in Nagoya and other cities of Japan. He has a
monopoly on this type of seaweed. He came to this country in 1941
to establish an overseas market here in North America.
According to his own testimony he sent his eldest son in the same
year to Europe to visit Germany, Russia, and Central Europe to
similarly try to develop a Nori market.
His son went back to Japan.
^ and 3 work as a team at Poston.
-,^ prior to his appearance in the strike or in the riot as
one of the ringleaders, for a number of months had been endeavoring
to get control of the cooperative system at Poston.
Shall I go into that?
Mr. Steedman. I prefer we take the cooperative angle up at a
later time. I would like to proceed along with the strike now,
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And we will develop that testimony later.
Mr. James. May I introduce a piece of poetry that ^
v^^rote?
Mr. MuNDT. Are you still talking about the wealthy Japanese
merchant?
Mr. James. This is by way of background so you can picture who
3 was or is. May I add one further thing: The testi-
mony of the district attorney of Kern County
Mr. Steedman. Go right ahead.
Mr. James. In February 1942, prior to the evacuation, the
^ acted as an interpreter for the district attorney of
Kern County, Calif., and for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
The F. B. I. agents who came in on several of these cases began to
be a little suspicious of ^ interpreting. They called
Mrs. / whom I have previously mentioned in this
testimony, to check — ^ interpretation.
Mr. CosTELLO. Her name is off the record?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. There were sufficient discrepancies to cause
3 ^o be thrown out. He was one of the first to come
into Poston. He came in as a volunteer evacuee, presumably to act
as a Methodist minister. Fully 90 percent of his time at Poston is
spent in other activities or activities other than preaching.
Mr. MuNDT. Is the same man who is a merchant also a minister?
Mr. James. No. The ^ is the minister. Living
with him in his apartment is this old, elderly alien Japanese,
-,^ who is incredibly wealthy, and who, by his own admissions.
is a rugged individualist. He secured his monopoly of the Nori
product in various ways — —
Mr. MuNDT. Is the minister also an alien?
Mr. James. ^ is also an alien; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you happen to know whether any effort has
been made to exchange ^ for some American national in
Japan?
3 Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9121
"Mr. James. I don't know. The State Department will know about
that because they are in charge of repatriation.
Air. MuNDT. You say you have a poem that the minister wrote?
Mr. James. Yes; and later on I will read it.
Mr. Steedman. (Reading again from the memorandum):
12 midnight: Project Director Head and Mr. Gelvin arrive from War Relocation
Authority regional conference in Salt Lake City.
November 22, 10 a. m.: A staff meeting is called by Director Head who says he
has a plan for the solution of the strike; that he personally examined all the facts;
that he will not meet with any evacuee committee until he is convinced they are
representative and that the plan he is evolving will require the full support of the
staff and outside agencies.
Midaflernoon. Representatives of the Committee of Seventy-two make
frequent attempts to open negotiations with Mr. Head but all such meetings he
holds in abeyance, while compiling data on the membership of these committees.
Frequent consultations are held with staff members to discuss future strategy.
8 p. m. : Military police patrols now guard the mile square boundaries of Poston
No. 1, under orders to turn back all evacuees endeavoring to enter or leave the
camp.
Mr. Steedman. Had the evacuees been going in and out of the camp
at Poston during the course of this strike?
Mr. James. Going where, Mr. Steedman?
Air. Steedman. Leaving the boundaries of the center from camps
No. 1, 2, or 3?
Mr. James. Going between camps?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. James. They \yere not permitted to go by road between the
two camps. The military police were blocking that. It was quite
possible and as a matter of fact they did go through on trails that they
had beaten between the two camps. It was only a matter of 3 miles
and they held meetings.
Air. Steedman. There are many ways to move back and forth
between the camps without using the regular road?
Air. James. That is correct: yes.
Air. Steedman (reading again from the memorandum):
November 23, 1:4.5 p. m.: Project Attorney Haas, at Mr. Head's request,
confers with Andrew Sugimoto and Mr. Kawashima, spokesmen for the evacuee
committees, and arranges a meeting between Mr. Head and members of the
Commi4;tee of Twelve. »
3:30 p. m.: Mr. Head meets with the Committee of Twelve in the Red Cross
Hall. The first half hour of the meeting finds the administration represented by
Mr. Head and Mr. Haas. They are then joined by Dr. Leighton, Mr. Evans,
Mr. Gelvin, a.nd Vernon Kennedy, employment director.
Verbatim minutes of the entire meeting are recorded by Miss Frances Cushmen.
These deliberations which continued until 9 p. m., involved discussions in these
three categories: (1) Employment, (2) law and order, (3) proper organization for
better collaboration between the evacuees and the administration.
The Committee of Twelve states its position in the Uchida case: A demand for
the unconditional release of the prisoner, and the dropping of all charges.
Mr. Head states the official project position, that both the Federal Bureau of
Investigation and the officials of Yuma County have jurisdiction which is higher
than project law. He further states that the'United States Government is free
at any tune to investigate pro-Axis activities; that he expects the full cooperation
of all residents of Poston if Federal, State, and county officials exercise their
powers under their higher jurisdiction.
The committee restates its position, that it is checking mob action, that it can
only accomplish this through the unconditional release of Uchida. It further
states that speed is essential in the settlement.
The meeting ends with Mr. Head giving assurances he will give his answer
tomorrow and the committee likewise agrees to take under advisement the ad-
ministration position and to report at the same time.
D122 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. It states here that Mr. Vernon Kennedy was the
employment director. What were his duties at Poston, if you know?
Mr. James. Mr. Kennedy was in charge of local employment, Mr.
Steedman — -that is the employment of people on various projects
within the project itself.
He also was in charge of the leave program. His title was changed
later on to "Leave and employment officer."
Mr. Steedman. Does he occupy that position at the present time?
Mr. James. He does not, Mr. Steedman. He is in charge of the
leave office at Kansas City.
Mr. Steedman. Did you Ivnow Mr. Kennedy prior to going to
Poston?
Mr. James. No, I didn't. I knew him quite well at Poston. We
were very good friends and we had an occasion, as in the case of the
strike, to collaborate on the keeping of notes and things of that sort.
Mr. Steedman. Is Mr. Kennedy a native of San Francisco?
Mr. James. I believe he was born in Lassen County. He lived in
San Francisco a long time. He went to St. Marys College, I believe.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know what position Mr. Kennedy held
prior to going to Poston?
Mr. James. Well, Mr. Kennedy was a labor expert, I believe, and
at one time he worked for the Pacific Gas & Electric Co. and later he
was an organizer for the C. I. O. I am not sure of that but I believe
he was an organizer for the C. I. O.
Mr. Steedman. Was he a close associate of Harry Bridges in San
Francisco?
Mr. James. That I wouldn't know. I never heard him mention
that but it is quite reasonable to believe if he worked for the C. I. O.
that he knew Mr. Harry Bridges.
Mr. Steedman. And now he is in charge of the leave office at
Kansas City?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. I would like, for the sake of the record, to
say Mr. Kennedy was a very competent employee — a very competent
employment director at Poston. His records were in very good shape.
Mr. Steedman (going on with the memorandum):
November 24, 9 a. m.: Project attorney Haas is informed in telephone contact
with Andrew Sugimoto that he is acceptable as an intermediary between Mr.
Head and the evacuee committees.
9:30 a. m.: Mr. Haas meets with Sugimoto, Kawashimi, and Omori. Sugimoto,
as spokesman, says he has assurances that the Committee of Twelve will accept
Mr. Head's proposals and that the Committee of i^eventy-two will meet at 10 a. m.
Sugimoto presents in behalf of the Committee of Twelve, and indicates complete
support from the Committee of Seventy-two, the following demands: (1) That
Uchida be released in the custody of the Committee of Seventy-two and tried in
Poston, and that this release be in written form; (2) that the Committee of
Seventy-two will sign an agreement to produce Uchida when asked for; (3) that
the procedure for such trial would be worked out by Director Head.
Gom Masuda was present at this conference and indicated that he had already
agreed to act as counsel for Uchida.
Mr. Haas again reiterated any final agreement on the trial and disposition of
Uchida at Poston would not affect possible action by the Federal Bureau of
Investigation or Yuma County.
10 a. m.: Staff meeting is held with the Army representatives present. Mi*.
Head explains the status of the strike and brings the division chiefs up to date.
With Major Dykes and Lieutenant Young he is able to present the position of the
Army.
3 p. m.: Sugimoto comes to the administration building for a reply from Mr.
Haas and Mr. Head. He is informed that Mr. Head will see the committee at
3:30. The meeting time is changed to 4 p. m.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9123
4 p. m. through to 8:30 p. ni.: Meeting with the Committee of Twelve. Present
in behalf of the administration: Director Head, Dr. Leighton, and Messrs. Haas,
Evans, Gelvin, Powell, and later Kennedy. For the evacuees: The Committee of
Twelve, and three Niseis, Henry Ogadawa. Frank Tanaka, and Smoot Katow.
For Uchida. Tom Masuda and Kay Tamura, attorneys. Verbatim minutes of
the proceedings are taken by Miss Cushman. A basic formula for a settlement is
agreed upon:
(1) Uchida is to be released to the custody of his two attorneys, Masuda and
Tamura, to stand trial in Poston under procedures prescribed by Mr. Head.
(2) The evacuees are to accept a reemployment program, drawn up by Mr.
Kemieday with the approval of Mr. Head. Air. Haas explains that all War Re-
location Authority rules are to be followed in all respects.
(3) All evacuees are to be required to sign affidavits. guaranteeing law and
order.
(4) A city planning board is to be elected by the people of Poston to collaborate
with them and to assist the administration in the functioning of the administra-
tive, legislative, and economic life of the community.
Uchida is released upon a signed order by Mr. Head.
Midnight: Picket lines are withdrawn and the people of Poston No. 1 go home.
November 25, 8:30 a. m. : Some workers report for duties and the reemploy-
ment program commences. Projects which have been overstaffed prepare to
eliminate personnel.
10 a. m.: The military police cordon is withdrawn from the boundaries of
Poston No. 1.
10 a. m. : Commissioner Collier is informed by telephone that the strike is over
and that work projects and reemployment will get under way tomorrow.
Mr. Steedman. That is an account of the strike at Poston as kept
by you?
Mr. James. That is correct. I would hke to add one thing to it.
I just happened to notice a sentence on the gist of the Army position
as presented at 10 a. m. on November 24.
At that meeting Major Dykes and Lieutenant Young and Captain
AIcFadden explained to Mr. Head that the Army would, and this
was in answer to a hypothetical question put to them by Mr. Head,
that the Army would enter Poston only in case of riots or in the case
of a fire that was out of control
That position was stated at 10 o'clock on the morning of the 24th.
Mr. Steedman. And that position was taken on the basis of a
memorandimi agreement between the Army and the W. R. A.?
Mr. eTAMEs. That is correct; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. "Wlio was Alajor Dykes?
Mr. James. Major Dykes is attached to the southern security zone
of the military police.
Mr. Costello. He was not regularly stationed at the post adjacent
to Poston?
Mr. James. No; Lieutenant Young in the absence of Captain
Dougherty, who the day before had been assigned to The Adjutant
General's school in Washington, D. C. Captain Doughert}'' had left
Poston and Yoimg was in charge.
Mr. Costello. And Major Djdves came there because of the
trouble?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. During the course of the riot, did you see a Japanese
flag displayed anywhere inside the center at Poston?
Mr. James. I did.
Mr. Steedman. Where was it displayed?
Mr. James. It was displayed on the front of the. police station for a
period of 15 minutes. Mr. Evans went up to Mr. Andrew Sugimoto,
I believe one of the strike leaders, and apparently suggested to Mr.
Sugimoto that it be taken down and it was taken do^v'n.
9124 UN-AMEEICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Was that flag made of cloth?
Mr. James. It was made of cloth. It was about this size [indi-
cating], I should say 44 inches long and in the center was a rising sun
with a white field.
Mr. Steedman. Is there any question in your mind about it having
been the Japanese flag?
Mr. James. None whatsoever,
Mr. Steedman. You have seen the Japanese flag before?
Mr. James. I have. It is not to be confused with the block banners
which were displayed almost continuously during the strike. Tl)ey
were similarly made. They were on a white field and the numerals,
very often, in red such as block 30, and m the shape of a rising sun,
but neverthelss it was not a rising sun because they did not have it
solidly red. But in the case of the flag that was put up on the front of
the jail, that was the rising sun flag. It was only up 15 minutes.
Mr. Steedman. Are the block banners designed to resemble the
Japanese flag?
Mr. James. Some of them very definitely, whether by chance or
by design I leave to you.
Mr. Costello. Did the Japanese flag fly at any other place in the
camp?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. I should like to s'ay this for
the record. The American flag was flown continuously from the big
flagpole by the administration building and it was taken down and
put up each night and morning by an alien by the name of Teshima,
whose two sons are in the American Army.
Mr. Costello. Had he done that prior to the time of the strike?
Mr. James. Yes; and that was the one place in the camp where
the American flag was flying all the time.
Mr. Costello. Under normal conditions is the American flag flown
at other places about the camp?
Mr. James. No, sir; just at the administration building. That is
the only place where it is flown.
Mr. Costello. Did j^^ou witness any threats by the Japanese to
take down the American flag at the administration building?
Mr. James. To my knowledge there were no such threats made.
Mr. Costello. You have no knowledge of any incident of that
kind?
Mr. James. I have no knowledge and I was there all the time and
if there was such an incident I would know about it.
Mr. Costello. We had testimony indicatmg that some Japanese
Boy Scouts stood around the flag — no, that was at Manzanar.
Mr. James. There was no incident regarding the American flag at
Boston.
Mr. Mundt. Dm'ing the strike did the Japanese occupy the gasoline
pumps at Boston?
Mr. James. I believe they did. The gasoline pumps at that time
were located a full half-mile away from the administration building;
and I believe they did.
Mr. Mundt. Did they also occupy some of the warehouses?
Afr. James.* Not to my knowledge. The transcript, Congressman,
shows that a committee called earlier during the strike, on Mr. Evans,
to set up procedures for getting food ; but as to actually occupying the
warehouses, to the best of my knowledge they did not occupy them.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9125
Mr. MuNDT. They worked out an agreement with the administra-
tion in some way to get food each day?
jMr. James. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. No attempt was made to steal food or any of the
property of the United States during that time?
Mr. James. None durmg that time.
Mr. CosTELLo. As far as you know, there was no destruction of
property?
Mr. James. There was no destruction of property during the
period of the strike.
Mr. MuNDT. Was there any suggestion on the part of the adminis-
tration that if they didn't quit striking they would have to stop eating?
Mr. James. None to my knowledge.
Mr. MuNdt. They didn't use that persuasive device?
Mr. James. I am sure I would have known it if there had been
that type of persuasive tactics used.
Mr."^MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. James. I would like to say for the purpose of the record,
however, that there were several occasions, notably those involving
■ ^ and — — ,^ American-born Japanese women,
who came to us for protection.
They lived within the camp and we were unable to provide protec-
tion for them.
In the case of ^ I believe a request was made to the
chief of police at Poston No. 1 to place a guard in front of her house.
Wliether that was done, I don't know.
I do know neither ■ ^ or ^ received any
bodily harm during the period of trouble.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese seize the automotive equipment
of the center during the course of the strike?
Mr. James. They did. On the first 2 or 3 days there was equip-
ment that was loose inside of the camp. From the first' day of the
trouble they maintained control over it for several days before we
were able to get it back.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that the fact Mr. Townsend had
the responsibility of all this automotive equipment, which was, after
all, Government property, caused him to become concerned over the
fact that the Japanese had taken control of that property and refused
to return it to his control?
Mr. James. I think Mr. Townsend very definitely was under tre-
mendous strain and responsibility in the care of that equipment.
I do think, collaterally, that there are other circumstances that
created the rather unusual mood he was in. I thinlv worry over his
wife, who had been an invalid, had something to do with it.
Mr. Steedman. And was he concerned about her safety?
Mr. James. Very definitely, and her physical condition, too.
Mr. Steedman. Was any concern demonstrated by other Caucasian
people who were living inside the center?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. The only people who actually
left the project were Mr. and Mrs. Towmsend and Mr. Townsend's
assistant, Mr. Barrett with Mrs. Barrett.
3 Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
9126 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
I don't know the reason why Mr. and IMrs. Barrett left during the
strike.
Air. CosTELLO. Did Mr. Barrett return?
Mr. James. He returned sul^sequently and is now employed at
Poston. I believe he is chief of transportation under Mr. Haverland,
who is chief of transportation and supply.
lV[r. CosTELLo. Is the equipment of the Government normally
stored in garages or is it left in any particular place?
Nir. James. Originally the equipment was stored outside in the
central warehouse area, which is approximately in the middle of the
camp. During the period of the strike a motor pool — just prior,
incidentally, to the disturbances — a motor pool had been set up across
the road immediately adjacent to the military police camp, and
within three or four hundred yards of the military police camp.
IVir. CosTELLO. Normally, then, all the motor equipment should
have been placed in that pool overnight?
Mr. James. That is correct; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. But at the time of the strike much of that equip-
ment was not actually in the motor pool; it was scattered around the
camp in difl'erent locations?
IV. r. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And the Japanese defied Mr. Townscnd to obtain
possession of that equipment, didn't they?
Mr. James. I wasn't present when that happened. I know Mr.
Townsend's story on that, however, and I am not in position to give
you any opinion as to the validity of the story.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Dr. John Powell?
Mr. James. I do, quite well.
Mr. Steedman. What was his position at Poston?
Mr. James. Dr. Powell, during the time of the strike, was director
of recreation and adult education.
Mr. Steedman. What is his present position?
Mr. James. I believe he has succeeded Miss Nell Findley as chief
of community services since, approximately, May 24.
Mr. Steedman. And Dr. Powell is concerned with community
welfare at Poston center?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. What is Dr. Powell's background as a social
worker?
Mr. James. Dr. Powell, I believe, holds a Ph. D. from one — from
a northern California university. I believe he comes from San
Francisco. I understand that prior to joining W. K,. A. he had
engaged in social service work.
Mr. Steedman. Was his attitude during his entire connection with
the Poston center one of sympathetic understanding toward the
Japanese?
Mr. James. Yes, I would say so — I would say that of all social
workers.
Mr. Steedman. And has he always taken the side of the Japanese
in their discussions with the project administration?
Mr. James. Yes, I would say he would — ^that he would be inclined
to look upon the broad values of the Japanese — social values of the
Japanese.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9127
Mr. Steedman. But by no stretch of the imagination could Dr.
Powell be called anti-Japanese, could he?
Mr. James. Definitely not.
Mr. Steedman. I hand you a memorandum entitled, "Attitudes of
a Project Official by John Powell, Director of Recreation," and dated,
"November 21, 1942," and ask j^ou if you have seen this memorandum
before? [Handing document to the witness.]
Mr. James. I have. I included it in my official report to Mr. Dillon
Myer, Director of the War Relocation Authority at Washington,
Mr. Steedman. Did you see the original of this memorandum?
Mr. James. I did.
Mr. Steedman. Was it signed by Dr. Powell?
Mr. James. It was. Copies of it were also distributed to other
project officials.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to place this memorandum
in evidence and read it into the record at this point, it having been
identified by the witness.
Mr. CosTELLO. In view of the identification which has been made
it will be so ordered.
Mr. Steedman. I am quoting:
As the project administration moves toward o settlement of the present dispute
with the residents, there are a few factors of which I have been especially conscious
which seem to me vital in looking for a long-term solution of the situation out of
which this crisis arose.
1. There is an obvious, powerful, and continued state of terror among loyal
Nisei who have been among the friends and coworkers of the administration.
There have been many threats of violence to those who are openly loyal to the
United States and to this administration.
The present picket lines are being maintained by personal check-up, search of
homes, and threats to persons.
Several of the most active, intelligent, and unquestionable young people, includ-
ing one Issei returned from internment and leading programs of Americanization,
have announced with genuine despair their intention of leaving Poston at any
price.
None of these phenoma are explained by the administration's confident descrip-
tion of the responsible and trustworthy group through whom negotiations are now
being carried on.
2. The negotiating group is described as "representative." The bivouac
around the jail is not genuinely so. Its flags are described as having the red circle
on the white ground. Its music is Japanese, as is its language.
True, many of the watchers are Nisei. They are there under compulsion, as
many of them have frankly said: They do not dare not to be there, and are checked
on almost hourly. The Nisei are delegated to that duty.
Similarly, it is possible that the familiar members of the negotiating body were
ordered to join it, and dared not refuse. Their presence is not a guarantee of the
good faith of those who stand behind them..
There have been repeated statements that the real background group is openly
pro-Japan; but that the American group does not feel strong enough, in their
position within the whole family ribbed structure of this people, to openly resist
them. They look to the Administration to do that.
3. The whole technique of these incidents is too familiar to require analogies.
The first move is to create hatred against some people within the group, as
friendly to the Government. The next is to terrorize by a few beatings and many
threats. The beatings get worse, but the perpetrators are protected by the
people's loyalty and fear, and by the fact the victims were unpopular.
When a suspect is caught, after particularly brutal assaults, (a) he is made the
occasion for a hero festival, around which is built up a glittering and specious
structure of demands for "the people's rights." If the legal right is granted, the
demands are advanced beyond right, to political gains. The "people" are kept
in line behind these demands.
9128 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Finally, the demanding group offers to "keep the peace," guarantees to prevent
any renewal of violence. By this time, this is not a genuine off«r; it is a threat.
"No more violence if you * * *" or "until you. * * *"
4. Within the cultural and population picture of Poston are an unusually
complex set of factors. They include the Issei, who kept the laws of the land
pretty well while they were adding hundreds of millions of dollars of wealth to
that land; who were dispossessed and concentrated in alien camps, where self-
government was promised; and were then explicitly excluded from any overt
legal share in that government. There are also the Nisei, who were in full cen-
trifugal flight from the old folks, until they too were dispossessed from schools
and jobs and thrown into the arms of the Issei again. There are the Kibei,
friends of neither and divided among themselves; young people without a country.
Politically, there are four groups here:
(a) Those openly and enthusiastically American, consciously and emotionally
so.
(b) Those who were born and raised here and take America for granted, like us.-
(c) Those who, without being favorable to Axis fascism, deeply resent their
treatment under relocation, and are antagonistic to the Government and this
administration.
(d) Those who are heartily in favor of Axis policies and aims, and seek to
further them.
The (a) and (b) groups are discouraged and frightened; they feel their cause is
losing, and themselves under threat. The (c) group easily joins with (d) in
action, though without the same ultimate ends.
In relation to "informers," (a) and (6) dislike them, and regard them as traitors
to the group. Only (d) has reason to fear them, actually; but (c) also suffers from
their activity, or might so suffer, (c) and (d), therefore, would plan and carry out
attacks; (a) and (b) would be in sympathy sufficiently not to interfere; and would
not inform, both out of sympathy and for fear of being in turn beaten as informers.
5. Many honest and earnest citizens of Poston believe Uchida innocent. Even
if he were guilty, however, most of them would want him released: "Punishing
informers is our own internal affairs."
Not less than eight people were active in the assaults; hundreds were sym-
pathetic and the rest dare not tell. But if the community cannot handle its law-
breakers and terrorists, it cannot govern itself in any sense which this administra-
tion can accept.
Uchida is an incident; perhaps an accident. The basic fact is that slander and
terror and violence have reached ends that are pleasing to the enemy, and para-
lyzing to the project.
A genuine desire to accomplish as much self-government as the administered
situation can permit should be furthered. But there are elements in this situation
that demand extra and unusual safeguards before the administration can give the
power over law and order to a self-announced ruling body.
The "informers" have been accused without evidence and without hearing or
defense, in a cowardly and unfair way; and then have been brutally beaten, and
their fate used to terrorize others.
The town cannot ask unusual consideration in terms of rights when its hands
are not clean. The administration should, I think, demand and receive guaranties
that the Axis and terrorist elements will be eliminated; and these guaranties
should he accompanied by sanctions under which summary milita'-y of police
action may be taken, without protest, if evidence of terror of subversion recurs.
The Am'^rican young people must be given the chance to develop themselves and
their programs without fear or false face. All acts of town government must
be carried on in full view of the peopb and the administration. The "informers"
must be given a hearing on the evidence, and apologies rendered to those unjustly
persecuted and slandered.
I wanted to read that memorandum into the record for the purpose
of providing a picture of what the situation was at Poston, written
by a party or an administration official who is pro-Japanese.
Mr. CosTELLo. Who wrote the memorandum?
Mr. Steedman. Dr. John Powell.
In connection with the settlement of the strike and after Uchida
was released, was he removed from Poston to trial by the county
authorities in Yuma?
Mr. James. Not by the county authorities; no.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9129
Mr. Steedman. By what authorities was he removed?
Mr. James. Somewhere hite in December, when I was in San
Francisco, he was summoned by the Federal Bureau of Investigation
and taken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation to Yuma to be
tried or to be given a hearing on the old extortion note charge. That
was the extortion note which was supposed to have been written to
Lyle Kurisaki. The hearing in Yuma was never consummated. He
was taken to Yuma, so I have been told, in custody of the project
attorney, Mr. Haas, and a Japanese attorney by the name of Mr.
Tom Masuda. They appeared in Yuma but the F. B. I. agent did
not appear for the hearing and Uchida was subsequently brought
back to Boston.
He has remained at Boston and to the best of my knowledge there
has never been a trial of Mr. Isuma Uchida in Boston.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say the F. B. I. agent did not appear for the
trial?
Mr. James. The F. B. I. agent did not appear for the trial and
there was no trial^no hearing.
Mr. CosTELLO. Didn't anybody from the F. B. I. office appear at
the proceeding?
Mr. James. None appeared.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you hear of any explanation in regard to that?
Mr. James. No. ^ They went there and immediately came back.
I want to empha'size that point on the basis of the extortion note
and not in the case of these beatings — implication in the beatings.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether there was any protest on
the part of the Japanese in the camp to his being removed at that
time to Yuma for trial?
Mr. James. None whatsoever.
Mr. CosTELLO. He went out freely without interference?
Mr. James. I was not there and I am again retelling second-hand
information.
On my return I checked that very closely and there was no dis-
turbance whatsoever.
Mr. CosTELLO. At the time he was released from the jail to the
Japanese people, was there any trial held at that time for his assail-
ing the other two victims?
Mr. James. None whatsoever. There has never been a trial of
him to my knowledge under the terms of the final settlement of the
strike. There has never been a formal trial in Boston.
Mr. CosTELLO. It was a part of the settlement terms that there
should be a trial by the Japanese of Uchida?'
Mr. James. That is quite right.
*Mr. CosTELLO. But no trial was actually held?
Mr. James. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. "Where is Uchida now?
Mr. James. He is a member of Boston No. 1 Fire Department.
Mr. Steedman. Was any disciplinary action taken against any of
the people who participated in the riot or strike at the Boston center?
Air. James. Not by the project itself. I have here a Hst of the
Committee of Seventy-two and of this hst Juro Omori
Mr. Costello. And his name is already in the record?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; who. was returned from the Bismarck intern-
ment camp on August 10, 1942 was picked up by the Federal Bureau
9130 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
of Investigation representatives from Phoenix; and he now reposes in
the Santa Fe, N. Mex., concentration camp. He had been returned to
us from Bismarck and he went back to Santa Fe.
On this hst of the Committee of Seventy-two there are a number of
former internees who were returned to us from Bismarck or from
Santa Fe.
I am turning the hst over to Mr. Steedman,
Mr. CosTELLO. The group that was released from internment
camps were active as leaders of the Japanese at the Poston center?
Mr. James. That is correct; and occasionally you will see in the
list of names nephews of men who were returned.
Mr. CosTELLO. Indicating their immediate relatives were also
quite active in the Japanese leadership?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, will you accept for the record the
personal data of the Committee of Seventy-two who were active
during the recent disturbances at Poston?
Mr. CosTELLO. Is that a list which you prepared?
. Mr. James. This is a list which I prepared, yes. I would ask that
the names be kept confidential since many of them are being investi-
gated.
Mr. CosTELLO. The list will be made a part of the record and it
will be noted here at the head of the list of names, it is confidential
•and is not to be released.
(The list of names referred to was marked "James Exhibit No. 1."
and made a part of the record.)
Mr. Eberharter. Where did you get the data to compile this list?
Mr. James. I got that list through my own organization down
there. It is an accurate list.
Mr. Eberharter. It is a result of your own studies and own
investigation?
Air. James. That is correct.
Mr. Eberharter. And whatever information you could gather
yourself and through your organization?
Mr. James. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was the majority of the membership of the
Committee of Seventy-two composed of former internees?
Mr. James. Mr. Steedman, I haven't counted the list. I meant
to do it this noon; but all of those who Were internees are designated
here. We can count them now. It wouldn't take more than a
minute if you would like for me to, but they are all designated, those
who were returned from internment camps.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is it shown which ones are Kibeis and which are
not?
Mr. James. They are not identified as Kibeis.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact, in going over the list, I note
the greater portion of the m-embers of the Committee of Seventy-two
are the elderly or Issoi Japanese?
Mr. James. I would make tliis statement: That the majority of
men on that Committee of Seventy-two were either Issei or ahens or
internees from the Bismarck camp or the Santa Fe, N. Mex., camp,
X)r Kibeis.
There are very few Nisei on that de facto strike group.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9131
Mr. Steedman. In summing up the strike at Poston, would you
say that the Japanese won the battle?
Mr. James. I would put it this way, if you want an opinion, and
you can take it for what it is worth: That since the camp opened up,
beginning with the return of these internees, the various investigative
agencies were conscious that there was a definite attempt being made
to destroy the Americanism of the American-born Japanese.
It was being done by men who had slipped tlirough the net of the
F. B. I. It was done by groups who had veered away from American-
ism and assumed an antiwhite attitude and that these various factors
crystallized was a result of the Uchida incident.
Mr. CosTELLO. And I presume the internees who returned were
also leaders in those two factions?
Mr. James. They were.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you feel that there was a strong undercurrent
or movement in the camp to try to alienate the Japanese residents
from Americanism?
Mr. James. That is right; yes. And I think as a result of the strike
they were able to throw up and amalgamate their positions with these
men who, at the very least, were with very questionable background
as to their loyalty.
Mr. Costello. By their success in obtaining their demands at the
time of the strike they assumed their position of leadership and were
able to maintain it in the center?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Costello. And as a further result they are able to mipose
their doctrine and thinking on the Japanese, either willing or through
fear?
Mr. Steedman. Would you say the Japanese won all their demands
in comiection with the strike?
Mr. James. If Uchida was never tried I most certainly would say
that they won a very definite victory there. That was the immediate
cause of the strike and I think, secondly, they were able to greatly in-
crease their part in the administration of the project.
Mr. Steedman. I was just com.ing to that. As a result of the strike,
did this alien group who were partly formerly internees, finally emerge
as leaders in the Japanese community?
INfr. James. They did.
Mr. Steedman. And I am referring to this group of 72.
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And did they set up a city-planning board?
Mr. James. They did.
Air. Steedman. I hand you three mimeographed pages entitled,
"City Planning Board Meeting," dated, "Thursday 11 o'clock a. m.,
November 26, 1942," and ask you if you have seen this before [handing
document to the witness]?
Mr. James. This is material which was prepared by the de facto
government of Poston. It is the official transactions covering the
period November 26 to November 28, and mimeographed by them.
Mr. Steedman. This outlines tiie community government that came
into being immediately after the strike or riot?
Mr. James. That is correct; and continued for a period of approxi-
mately 2 months and it still continues to some extent today.
9132 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to take up the time of
the committee by reading this entire document into the record, but I
would Uke to submit it in evidence for incorporation in the record.
And at this point I would like to ask Mr. James some questions about
this particular document.
Mr. CosTELLo. The document does set forth, you believe, accurate
statements of fact?
Mr. James. It is signed by their secretary.
Mr. CosTELLO. And do they put out similar documents from time
to time with reference to their meetings, even up to the present time?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; I believe they do.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, the reporter is directed to copy
this document into the record.
(The document referred to is in words and figures as follows:)
City Planning Board Meeting, Thursday 11 A. M., November 26, 1942
Each member of the city planning board presented bis credentials, which was a
signed affidavit by the residents of his respective block, giving him their assurance
of full support and confidence in his representation.
The first meeting of the city planning board was called to order by Mr. Sugi-
moto (block 3), vice chairman in the absence of Mr. Omori, chairman of the
emergency committee. Mr. Sugimoto, Mr. Takanashi, and * were
nominated for chairman of this meeting. Mr. Sugimoto was elected.
Mr. Sugimoto opened the meeting by calling for an election for a chairman and
vice chairman of an executive city planning board upon whose shoulders would
fall the real work of planning a true self-government body in Poston, taking into
consideration all elements which were instrumental in the spontaneous incident '
just ended.
3 was elected chairman.
Mr. Sugimoto was elected vice chairman.
Mr. Matsubara was appointed as Japanese secretar3^
Mr. Amano was appointed English secretary.
It was decided to have 12 members, 6 Issei and 6 Nisei, on this central com-
mittee.
The meeting was divided into two groups, Issei and Nisei, to elect their respec-
tive members to the board.
At the Nisei meeting the following people were nominated: Dr. Ishimaru,
James Yahiro, Hidemi Ogawa, Masaru Kawashima, Frankljai Sugiyama, Seiichi
Nomura, Harvey Suzuki, George Fujii, Teruo Kasuga, Smoot Katow, Frank
Tanaka. From these nominees, the following six were elected: Messrs. Kawa-
shima, Ogawa, Ishimaru, Nomura, Yahiro, and Katow.
The Issei members elected were: Messrs. Matsumoto, Takahas, Mitani, Oka-
moto, Nakamura, and Niiseki.
Executive Committee Meeting, Thursday, 2 p. m., November 26, 1942
The various elements causing the incident and how to prevent future incidents
were discussed in a round-table open forum. The meeting was adjourned with
the plan to bring back various plans to be discussed the following morning.
Executive Committee Meeting, Friday, 10 a, m., November 27, 1942
Discussions of various plans submitted by Messrs. Mitani, Matsumoto, Sugi-
moto, and Yahiro were held. The diff'erences in plans were very slight, and Mr.
Sugimoto's plan was with slight adjustments adopted. This plan calls for no
change in the heretofore covmcil set-up but provides for the creation of three new
boarQs, namely, (1) a central executive board, (2) a court of honor, (3) a labor
relations board.
The central executive committee was chosen from the executive council and will
have final decisive powers pertaining to the internal order and welfare of thia
community. This board shall at all times work directly with the project director.
> Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
UN-AMERIC.\N PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9133
All members of this central executive committee must be qualified by the honor
court and they may be recalled by a two-thirds majority vote of their respective
councils. The members comprising this committee at present are Issei:
— ■ 3 (3)^ \Ij._ Okamoto (30), Mr. Nakamura (17), Mr. Niiseki (60);
Nisei: Mr. Susimoto (3), Mr. Yahiro (37), Mr. Ogawa (38). Mr. Katow (12).
The duty of the Labor Relation Hoard Nvill be to plan on the abilHy of all appli-
cants for key positions. It will work hand in hand with the employment oflice.
The court of honor will have no connection with executive body council or other
boards, but will be the peoi)le's honor court separate from any political or labor
affiliations.
Further discussions brought about the decision to return to work all former
employees to their former positions until replaced by permanent workers. All
permanent workers must be qualified by the court of honor and the Labor Relation
Board. All positions are open to any person upon application and all former em-
ployees must reapply for their previous work. Upon qualification by the above
two boards, their position will be permanent.
Tlie meeting was adjourned with the understanding that a general meeting of
the civic planning board would be held to further discuss and then approve the
plan presented by Mr. Sugimoto, at 10 a. m., Saturday, November 28, 1942.
City- Planning Bo.\rd Meeting, Saturday, 10 a. m., November 23, 1942
After roll call a report of the work of the executive council was given by Mr.
Nagai. The following points were discussed:
1. The names of the central executive committee were read.
2. The council would exist and function as heretofore, however their actions
must be passed on by the central executive committee, and the project director.
3. A detached discussion of the new plan was held to clarify all points in their
relations to the three proposals sul^mitted to the administration by the emergency
committee. These three proposals are —
(1) Establish a public relation committee to mediate with and settle all
problems affecting personal reputations and damages not within the
jurisdiction of the court.
(2) The Postoii residents to be given the right to nominate, select, or appoint
all key evacuee administrative personnels and other important positions.
(3) The present emergency committee shall establish within the framework
of the Wsiv Relocation Authority a city planning board which sVall
recommend the creation of necessary administrative, legislative,
consumer, and productive organizations to the project director, subject
to approval of majority of the residents of Poston.
Mr. Sugimoto gave a brief report on the conference held with the project
director the previous evening.
1. That the project director approved these proposals and would support them
100 percent.
2. The block managers will be elected b}- the residents of their respective
blocks. The only requirements be that they be able to speak, read, and write
English.
Mr. Head then gave a brief address stressing the following points:
1. Poston is a part of the State of Arizona and of the L'nited States. Therefore
the Federal Bureau of Investigation has jurisdiction here as elsewhere in the
United States. Mr. Head did not call in the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
2. This body will be held responsible for the peace and welfare of this com-
mittee. If there are undesirables here they will be transferred. Mr. Head does
not believe there are any informers in here at present. He knows nothing of the
people's past, but the administration here has no informers working for them, i or
will they as long as he is project director. There should be no further beating,
threats, or intimidations.
3. The harm done to the imtil-now-favorable reputation of this communitj',
will take a year to regain.
4. That peo|jle be urged to report back to work immediately.
5. That there is a need for more unity in this camp between the people and the
administration. They should be as one, not two separate bodies.
Mr. Nagain responded stressing the importance of full confidence and trust in
each other.
» Names stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costellc.
62626 — 13— vol. 15 20
9134
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIiEiS
City Planning Board Meeting, Saturday, 2 P. M., November 28, 1942
After much discussion and alteration the committee approved the three new
boards. The corrections added, the boards duties and personnels are:
1. The central executive committee was approved and passed untouched. The
central executive committee was elected by the executive council of the city
planning board. It is composed of 8 members: 4 Issei ■■ * (2), Mr.
O'.vamoto (30), Mr. Nakamura (17), Mr. Niiseki (60); and 4 Nisei — Mr. Sugim.oto
(3), Mr. Yahiro (37), Mr. Ogawa (38), and Mr. Katow (12). This board shall at
all times work directly with the project director and shall have final decisive
powers in all matters pertaining to the internal order and welfare of this com-
mnnitv.
2. The Labor Relation Board was set up with 8 members: 4 Issei — Mr. Kado-
waki (27), ^ Mr. Matsomoto (35), and Mr. Nakachi (19); and
4 Nisei— Mr. Ono (60), Mr. Yana (5), Mr. Fukuvama (2), and Mr. Nakai (27).
The duty of this board shall be to pass on the ability of all applicants for important
positions. It will work hand in hand with the employment office.
The forming of the court of honor was left to nine members, one from each
quad. Thoss members and the quad represented being as follows: Dr. Ishimaru,
quad 1; Mr. Tazawa, quad 2; ,^ quad 3; Mr. Ishikawa, quad 4; Mr.
Na's-amura, qi'ad 5; Mr. Takahas, quad 6; Mr. Hahiro, quad 7; Mr. Kavyabe,
quad 8; Mr. Masukane, quad 9; the works of this committee will be recorded
under the reports of the personal relation board selecting committee.
ORGANIZATION CHART
-r>T>/^TT7'/-irn r^T'DTT'ri'nrM?
ADMINISTRATION
.
CENTRAL EXECUTIVE BOARD
AND IMEMBERS
COMIMUNITY
COUNCIL
ISSEI
COUNCIL
HONOR
COURT
LABOR RELATION BOARD
8 MEMBERS
RESIDENTS
Submitted by
HiKOSHi Amano
Hiroshi Amano — Eng. Sec.
City Planning Board.
Andrew Sugimoto
Andrew Sugimoto
Vice-Chairman
City Planning Board.
Mr. Steedman.
the strike,
I notice on the planning board that emerged after
^ was elected chairman. Is this the same
Japanese named -^ ^ who addressed the strikers and offered
each Japanese who would remain loyal ten thousand yen?
Mr. James. Loyal to Japan, ten thousand yen; yes, sir, it is. And
his name is off the record.
Mr. Steedman. And the leaders of the strike emerged as the
leaders of the inside government at Poston after the strilce?
Mr. James. At Poston No. 1. For the sake of the record I shoidd
like to point out that the people of Poston No. 2, who came from
California — Salinas Valley and Monterey County, refused to join
' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9135
the people of Poston No. 1 in this walk-out, even though pressures
were brought to bear by certain individuals in their camp. They
attempted to carry terrorism uito Poston No. 2 but they withstood
the pressure and stayed with us, and so did the people at Poston
No. 3.
Mr. CosTELLO. The strike and trouble was all confined to Poston
No. 1?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say the people from Salinas Valley and Mon-
terey were located in camp No. 2?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; and stayed with us and gave us loyal support.
Mr. CosTELLO. From what area did the people in camp No. 3
come from?
Mr. James. From San Diego and a number from the vSan Joaquin
Valley.
Mr. CosTELLO. And those in Poston No, 1 came from what area?
Mr. James. Orange County, Imperial Valley, Boyle Heights, Los
Angeles; San Bernardino County, and a few from the soutliern San
Joaquin Valley and a few from Arizona.
Mr. CosTELLO. And what was the population of Poston No. 1?
Mr. James. Approximately 10,000 at the time of the strike. We
had over 19,000 in the entire camp.
Mr. Costello. And what was the population of camp No. 2 and
camp No. 3?
Mr. James. Well, the division would be sometliing like this:
Approximately 10,000 at Poston No. 1, about 4,000 at Poston No. 2,
and pretty close to 5,000 at Poston No. 3. It added up to in excess
of 19,000 at that time.
Mr. MuNDT. Were there about 10,000 people involved in the strike?
Mr. James. Between 9,000 and 10,000 involved.
Mr. Costello. Were there very many people in Poston No. 1
who remained in their homes and did not participate in the strike?
Air. James. There were a number. The people from Yuma, Ariz.,
and from practically all of Arizona, practically all the Arizona group
that we had in there, several hundred of them, maintained perfect
order and while they were threatened they were cooperating with us.
Mr. Costello. To a great extent did the leaders of the strike go
into their homes and force them to participate in the strike?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. The coercion usually took place in the mess
halls. They would lock them in the mess halls and give them the
line of action and keep them there for a sufficient period of time to
condition them as to what duties they were to perform.
Air. Costello. At mealtime they were given harangues and pep
talks about the strike?
Air. James. Yes, sir; the indoctrination occurred there.
Air. Costello. Were the addresses usually given in Japanese?
Mr. James. Usually in Japanese; yes.
Air. Costello. Were there any white persons at the mess halls
during the lunch hour, usuaUy?
Mr. James. No, sir.
Air. Costello. So the nature of the talks would not be known
except as hearsay?
Air. James. That is right.
9136 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLo. Unless somebody reported it?
Mr. James. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. You started to read a poem at one time and you
stopped. I wondered why you started to read it and then stopped.
Did it have some special significance?
Mr. Eberharter. May we go off the record?
Mr. CosTELLO. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. CosTELLO. On the record.
Mr. MuNDT. May I ask one other question? Where is this very
wealthy Japanese merchant now?
Mr. James. He is still in Poston.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Any questions?
Mr. Eberharter. No questions.
Mr. Costello. The committee will stand adjourned until 10
o'clock tomorrow morning.
(Thereupon, at 5 p. m., the hearing adjourned until 10 a. m.^
Saturday, June 12, 1943.)
I
INVESTIGATION' OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
SATURDAY, JUNE 12, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to
Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States
Post Office and Courthouse, Los Angeles, Cahf. Hon; John M. Cos-
tello, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, and Hon.
Herman P. Eberharter.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee,
acting counsel.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Steedman, you may proceed with the interrogation of the
witness.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, when we recessed yesterday we
were discussing the Poston relocation center with Mr. Norris James.
I want to recall Mr. James for further testimony in connection with
the Poston relocation center.
Mr. Costello. Very well.
TESTIMONY OF NORRIS W. JAMES— Recalled
Mr. Steedman. Mr. James, I hand you a memorandum marked
'''Confidential," and entitled, "Problems of Internal Security at the
Colorado River War Relocation Project," and ask you if you have
seen this memorandum before? [Handing document to the witness.]
Mr. James. I have, Mr. Steedman. As I recall it was in the latter
part of September 1942.
Mr. Steedman. And have you read this memorandum?
Mr. James. If it is the same one I think it is, yes; I have seen it.
Mr. Steedman. Are the facts contained herein true and correct
to the best of your knowledge and belief?
Mr. James. To the best of my knowledge and belief; yes.
I would like to examine them a little bit further.
Mr. Steedman. I intended to question you on the various state-
ments made in the memorandum as we go along.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer in evidence this memorandum
which I have been discussing with Mr. James.
Mr. Costello. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to quote from the memo-
randum:
Foreword. The Colorado River war relocation project at Poston, Ariz., now
has a Japanese evacuee population of approximately 18,000 persons.
9137
9138 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Would you- fix the date of this memorandum?
Mr. James. Well, I would say offhand about September 20, 1942,
was the time I saw it last.
Mr. Steedman. And was that the first tinje you had seen it?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. I would say it was prepared somewhere
around that time. * * *
Mr. Steedman. I quote again from the memorandum:
Poston is located approximately 19 miles south and slightly west of Parker,
Ariz. The three center units (Poston I, 10,000; and Poston II and III, each
5,000) are all within 4 miles of the Colorado River. Three miles of mosquito-
covered desert separate each of the three units.
To the immediate east, 5 to 10 miles from Poston and rising sharply above the-
Parker Valley plain (elevation 480 feet), is La Quadra Desert, a waterless, deeply
eroded arid tract of approximately 800 square miles.
Between June 15 and September 1, 1942, daily temperatures at Poston varied
between 120° and 130° in mid-July, the United States Army engineers recQrded
one thermometer reading of 145° in the direct sun.
In materials and labor, the Poston project cost in excess of $10,000,000. Per
barrack or apartment unit, the United States engineers estimate the cost at
$3,500.
Disaster, with attendant loss of life and/or propertj^, can occur at Poston in
three forms: (1) Fire, (2) flood, (3) internal rioting, involving either groups of
Japanese evacuees, or Japanese evacuees and members of the Caucasian adminis-
tration, or Japanese evacuees and Mojave Indians on the adjacent Colorado-
River Indian Reservation.
In examining the problem of internal security at Poston, the possibility of
external sabotage must not be overlooked in spite of every surface indication that
Poston is isolated by stretches of arid desert.
External sabotage at Boulder or Parker Dams, along the Los Angeles Metro-
politan Water District Aqueduct, on the Santa Fe transcontinental railroad from
Barstow to Needles, on the Santa Fe Line, via Cadiz and Parker, to Phoenix, and
on the Southern Pacific Sunset Route from Los Angeles to Yuma, Ariz., might con-
ceivably be financed ^.nd even directed by subversive elements of wealth and power
who may, or may not, be residing in Poston as evacuees.
Again, remote as it may seem, there are possibilities of direct and indirect con-
tact between any subversive elements residing as evacuees in Poston and Japanese
Navy or military personnel in Baja California, or the area adjacent to the delta
of the Colorado River within the boundaries of the Republic of Mexico.
Is the paragraph I have just finished reading substantially correct^
to the best of yom' loiowledge?
Mr. James. Yes. Of course it is all based on hypotheses, Mr.
Steedman. It w:ould be possible; yes.
There are people of great wealth residing in Poston without any mail
censorship to my knowledge. It would be possible for those people
to act as pay-offs, I imagine, for external saboteurs, either white or
other racial extractions.
That, again, is purely hypothetical. Those conditions do exist
though.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. James, do you have any knowledge regarding
the Japanese south of the California border? Have they been
evacuated from Lower California?
Mr. James. They were evacuated by the Republic of Mexico,
Congressman Costello, at approximately the same time that we
evacuated our Japanese from the American Pacific coast.
Prior to our evacuation, for the purpose of the record, I should like
to point out that in Canada the Japanese were moved out of British
Columbia and settled in small camps in distances from 1,000 to 1,500
miles from the coast.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9139
Mr. CosTELLO. At the present time in Mexico there are no Jap-
anese along the coastal region?
Mr. James. Neither in Lower California nor on either side of the
Gulf of California; that is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any information on a movement in
Canada to resettle the Japanese who were removed from British
Columbia?
Mr. James. None whatever. To my knowledge they were all in
the small camps that have-been selected in the Canadian Rockies.
Mr. Steedman (continuing to quote from the memorandum) :
Intepnal Security at Poston
1. There are now at Poston 3 separate police forces composed entirely of
Nisei evacuees. None of the personnel, now numbering between 60 and 80, has
ever been checked as to loyalties, family background, or identification" with
Japanese "loyalty" societies. Since Poston first began receiving evacuees in May,
there has never been any trained Caucasian supervision of police personnel, and
to this date (September 15, 1942) there has been no appointment for the position
of internal security officer.
"When was the mternal security officer appointed at Poston center?
Mr. James. I believe Mr. Ernest Miller was appointed efl'ective
October 1, IMr. Steedman. That would seem to the best of my knowl-
edge, to be substantially correct.
And there was no Caucasian or white internal security officer
supervising the three police departments of Poston during the period
from approximately l\lay to October 1, nor was there a check made as
to the background of the personnel of the police department. As I
pointed out yesterday, at Poston we had limited resources in the way
of material in checking on the backgroimd of these people.
Mr. Steedman. Who selected the original policemen?
Mr. James. I believe that at that time the position of internal
security officer was under community services. In other words,
mider Miss N-ell Findley.
The appointment, however, I am sure would have to be made by
the project director, Mr. Head. And here again I am passing on
material that I need to refresh my memory on; but to the best of my
recollection, !^lr. Steedman, that was the set-up. The appointment
would be made by ]Mr. Head through Miss Findley's office.
Mr. Steedman. But in the final analysis Aliss Findley would
actually select the policemen, isn't that correct?
Mr. James. She would have something to say about it.
Mr. Steedman. And Mr. Head would have to act on her recom-
mendation in selecting the Japanese policemen?
jSIr. James. You mean the white or Japanese police?
;Mr. Steedman. Japanese poficemen inside of the center?
Mr. James. That 1 don't know. I imagine she had something to
say about the police department.
Mr. Steedman. I continue to quote:
For the past 4% months, the Poston police department has operated as a divi-
sion of communit}' services.
At that time, September 15, 1942, Miss Nell Findley was the head
of community services, was she not?
Mr. James. That is coiTect.
9140 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
»
Mr. Steedman. And as head of the community services she was
chief of pohce at Poston too, was she not?
Mr. James. Well, I suppose so. I suppose hypothetically, yes,
sure she was.
Mr. Steedman. We have here the ridiculous situation of Miss Nell
Findley, who has the background of a social worker, working as chief
of police of this large city of 19,000 evacuated Japanese.
Mr. James. Let me put it this way: She had a great deal of say
about the operation of the police force and the procedure for appre-
hending the people who committed misdemeanors or anything of that
sort, subject, probably, to Mr. Head's final decision.
Mr. Costello. The possibility is, however, that there was very
little supervision of the police force by any white personnel?
Mr. James. That is correct, Mr. Costello.
Mr. Costello. And as a consequence the Japanese themselves
were operating the police force?
Mr. James. That is correct. It was technically under Miss
Findley's direction without any supervision on her part.
Mr. Steedman. I continue to quote:
The post fire department was first organized by William Hoffman, regional
fire marshal. It is now operating as three separate units, each responsible to
the unit administrator. (For further details of the operation of the Poston Fire
Department, see Mr. Hoffman.)
3. Communication remains one of the most serious internal-security problems
at Poston. Since early May, United States Signal Corps units have been con-
structing a new telephonic circuit aJong the abandoned Colorado River Road
south of Poston III, thence to Ehrenberg, Ariz., by way of the ghost town of
La Paz, thence across the river to Blythe, Calif., and a transcontinental truck
system. Due to duststorms this telephonic system between Parker and Blythe
is frequently out of commission. Early in June there were several instances,
reported by the United States Army engineers (see San Diego area headquarters)
in which this line was frequently disrupted due to sabotage.
Do you know what the nature of the sabotage was in connection
with the disrupting of this telephone service betweon Parker and
Blythe?
Mr. James. I know of several instances where there was actual
sabotage, Mr. Steedman. I happened to have seen several instances
where the wires were down.
Mr. Steedman. Did you investigate those instances yourself?
Mr. James. I investigated one with Mr. Ellis Georgia, who was
the area engineer for the United States engineers at Poston, Ariz.
In this particular instance a circuit breaker had been placed across
the wires — a circuit breaker about this long [indicating], a heavy
piece of wire that had been curved on both ends and it had broken
the telephone circuit.
Mr. Steedman. Wlien did that happen?
Mr. James. That happened in the month of October — -no, the
month of September on or about September 15. It occurred about
100 yards north of the old military police barracks at Poston II.
Line between Poston II and Poston I, as I recall, went out along
about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and we were able to put through no
telephone calls between Poston I a^nd Poston II. There were Jap-
anese residing in the camp then.
I do want to point out that in the period from early in May through
June there was reported breaks iii the telephone circuit between
camp III and Ehrenberg, Ariz., and Blythe, Calif., due to the work
of Indians, probably.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9141
I remember Air. Georgia reciting that to me. In that case the
wires were torn off the telephone poles. The Indians did not like the
Japanese particularly. They felt some resentment at these people
occupying then- happy hunting grounds.
Mr. Steedman. Does any feeling exist between the Indians and
the Japanese there now?
Air. James. There is feeling on both sides. The Indians don't
like the Japanese and the Japanese don't want to be regarded as
wards of the Government as the Indians have been.
Air. Steedman. Has there been any trouble between the Indians
and the Japanese?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. On July 4, we had a baseball
game between — a softball game between an all-star Poston team and
the Parker Indian Keservation team. The score was Poston 29 and
Parker Indians zero, and the Parker Indians didn't like that.
Air. CosTELLO. Even Brooklyn doesn't like that.
Mr. James. On Alay 28
Air. Steedman. What year?
Air. James. 1942, with the cooperation of the Columbia Broadcast-
ing System of Los Angeles, a transcontinental radio broadcast was put
on at Ponton.
I helped Chet Huntley, special events director for C. B. S., Los
Angeles, in the preparation of this program, which was part of the
O. E. Al. program Report to the Nation.
Because of the frequent break-downs of the telephone system, the
Signal Corps officer at Poston had every piece of mechanized equip-
ment that he had patrolling the line between Poston III and Ehren-
berg, so the wires would not go down during the course of the broad-
cast.
Air. Steedman. Directing your attention to the instance you inves-
tigated where the breaker was across the telephone wire between
Poston I and Poston II, was anybody ever apprehended for this
particular act of sabotage?
Mr. James. No. It is very difficult to apprehend anyone because
of the distances we would have to patrol.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Georgia say that was an act of sabotage?
Mr. James. Definitely. I believe that that actual circuit breaker
is in the possession now of the United States district engineer's office
in Los Angeles.
Air. Steedman. Did the Japanese evacuees have access to the parti-
cular spot where that act occurred?
Air. James. Oh, yes.
Air. Steedman. Were they passing back and forth daily?
Air. James. They were.
Air. Steedman. That location?
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. I continue to quote from the memorandum:
4. The possibilities of disaster by flood should not be overlooked at Poston.
Flood control along this section of the Colorado River which flanks Parker Valley
is largely based upon controls established at Lake Huavasu (Parker Dain) and
Lake Mead (Boulder Dam). Each autumn, in the months of October, Novem-
ber, and December, sufficient run-off is permitted at Huavasu and Mead to allow
for the aruiual spring run-off and flood from watersheds and river and stream
tributaries to the Colorado. In the event, however, of early autunui rains or early
snowfall, followed by rains, floodijig of certain areas of Parker Valley can be ex-
pected to a greater or lesser extent. Such a flood, attributed to the foregoing
9142 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
reasons, occurred in 1939, according to Mr. Robert Rupkey, Chief of the United
States Indian vService Engineers, with headquarters at Parker, Ariz. This flood,
to a depth of between a foot and two feet, actually spread over an area now occu-
pied by Poston I. A second source of possible flood at Poston is the La Quadra
mesa to the immediate east of the Colorado River relocation project. Here are
located two large washes — Brouse wash and Tyson wash, ^\'hen storms of cloud-
burst proportion occur on this mesa land, one or both of these washes can be ex-
pected to reach river proportions with flood depths of from I to 4 feet and a flood
breadth of from 400 to 800 feet. Floodwater from the Brouse wash can be ex-
pected to hit either Poston I or Poston II. A similar flood condition occurring in
Tyson wash, could conceivably inundate portions of Poston III.
Evacuees and Internal Security at Poston
Herewith are a number of case histories, tabbed with sources of additional
Information from reliable persons, which may, or may not, substantiate the follow-
ing personal observations:
1. That Japanese evacuees at Poston, both Issei and Nisei alike, are arming
themselves with implements of force.
2. That there is increasing antagonism on the part of both Issei and Nisei
toward the "hakujin" or Caucasian, and that at in at least one instance there has
been actual use of force toward said Caucasians on the part of evacuees.
3. That there are ever-increasing sources of conflict between the Caucasian
administration due to —
(a) Lack of a realistic policy on the part of both the War Relocation Authority
and the United States Indian Affairs Bureau in refusing to recoijimend the
segregation of disloyal Japanese, labor agitators, or radicals from loyal groups.
(b) Loss of "face" by many administrators, their assistants, and subordinates
in dealing with Japanese evacuees because of ineffectual policies and work pro-
grams but particularly because of their inability to make loyal Nisei feel that they
are contributing to the war effort.
(c) A growing consciousness on the part of many evacuees that they are often
being used as human guinea pigs by doctrinaires, anthropologists, and social-
service workers attached to the project staff.
4. That, by throwing together a heterogeneous group of both loyal and disloyal
Japanese, the trend in Poston is now definitely toward a major portion of the
Nisei population shedding any outward loyalties to the Government of the United
States. And further, because the Nisei population has almost completely de-
pleted its slim financial resources, it must more and more come to depend upon
an internal economy controlled by the Issei, hence it may be anticipated that
Nisei attitudes and acts will be "increasingly shaped by Issei forces. Finally,
with mass claustrophobia — the sense of being shut in on all four sides by a desert
wilderness — prompting strange mental quirks, especially among the younger
elements of the Poston project, one can anticipate some measure of suicides,
attempts to escape by land or river and, finally, if strong subversive forces are
residing at the project, actual sabotage, internal or external.
Is the information contained in the portion of this document which
I have just read, entitled, "Evacuees and Internal Security at Poston,"
true and correct to the best of your knowledge?
Mr. James. Yes. I would say that that is a good summary of the
way things stood in September.
Mr. Steedman. September of 1942?
Mr. James. September of 1942. We had just come out of a very
hot summer and the problem of segregation had not been dealt with
at all, Mr. Steedman. I think that was the thing that was perhaps
most detrimental to the operation of this tremendous project.
I think here you had a project which was staffed with capable
men — those entrusted with the major task of administration, but I
think there were not enough first things that had come first, and
segregation is certainly one of them.
The danger signals were there but they were not heeded. I would
concur withniost of the things that are mentioned in that paragraph.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9143
IVIr. Steedman. As a matter of fact had not the so-called bad
Japanese left Los Angeles first and arrived at Poston and thereby
gained control of some of the major functions inside of the Japanese
community?
Mr. James. That is partially true. In the first groups that came —
and in lookhig back now it seems strange that at Poston and at
several of the other centers that I am acquainted with — in voluntary
groups, there were always a few who later popped up as trouble-
makers. That is, my frank opinion would be that they were planted
there.
Mr. Steedman. Do you mean they decided to leave Los Angeles
before the F. B. L picked them up?
Mr. James. That is probably true, in the belief that they were
going to be resettled there permanently or relocated in the centers
permanently; and probably the investigating agencies and law-en-
forcing agencies thought they would he perfectly safe.
Of course, when the resettlement program was announced on
approximately the middle of November by Mr. Dillon Myer, then
the security of confinement within the relocation centers disappeared.
I merely stress that point because I think that was the origmal
belief on the part of the investigative agencies, that they would be
secure, these people of questionable character would be secure in the
relocation centers pending a screening test to find out just who they
wanted to be sent to Bismarck or Santa Fe, N. Mex.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was the need for segregation known to the heads
of the projects and to the head of the project at Poston, and I am
referring to such men as Mr. Head and Mr. Empie?
Mr. James. I believe it was. I know Mr. Head personally, back,
way back in the middle of the summer, in August, recommended
segregation.
JSlr. CosTELLO. Did he make that recommendation to Washington?
^Ir. James. I believe he did.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words the. authorities in Washington were
:aware of the conditions pretty well as to how they stood at Poston?
Mr. James. That is true. I remember in August — I can't men-
tion the date because I haven't the notes here, we received from
Santa Anita assembly center the greater portion of the Tokyo gambling
club from Los Angeles, including the bouncer and some of the most
conspicuous characters in the operation of the games.
There were some twenty of them that came in. They had been
involved in trouble at Santa Anita and for some reason they were sent
to Poston.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have the names of those comprising the
Tokyo gambling club group?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; I do. I remember the name of the bouncer.
His first name was Kinji Ikeda.
Kinji Ikeda, for the sake of the record, is the former middleweight
judo wrestling champion of the Pacific coast. He is a man of about
43 years of age now.
Mr. Steedman. Is Kinji Ikeda at the Poston center now?
Mr. James. To the best of m}^ knowledge, Mr. Steedman, he is.
Mr. Steedman. Is it your information that the Black Dragon
Society operated the Tokyo gambling club in Los Angeles?
Mr. James. I don't know about that, Mr. Steedman. I can talk
about northern California but not about Los Angeles. I would
9144 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS
rather be inclined to doubt it, though. Unquestionably, members of
the Black Dragon Society frequented the Tokyo club. The Tokyo
gambling club was a well-established gambling outfit here in Los
Angeles.
Mr. Eberharter. Air. James, do you think there was anyone in
the camp administrative personnel, and I am referring to the white
personnel, who was competent or had the means and facilities to
distinguish who might be termed "troublemakers" and those who
might be termed "good Japanese?" In other words could a separa-
tion have been practicably accomplished?
Mr. James. Not without the help of all the existing qualified
agencies.
Mr. Eberharter. You mean the investigative agencies of the
Government?
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. Eberharter. And including city authorities?
Mr. James. That is correct. To detect loyalty requires, in my
estimation, a very minute check on the performance records of these
individuals during the years they lived in California or in other
sections of the west coast, plus other factors. It isn't a simple task.
Mr. Eberharter. That is what occmTed to me; it would not be an
easy thing to accomplish.
Mr. James. It isn't. It isn't an easy thing. I want to be perfectly
fair to all officials at W. R. A. and the Indian Sei'vice. I think that
segregation is extremely difficult to carry out. I think it requires the
best efforts of all the law-enforcing agencies, local, State, and certainly
Federal, including the Army and the Navy.
Mr. Eberharter. And there was nobody in the administrative
white personnel at Poston really qualified or competent to carry out
the segregation, was there?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Eberharter. But you say Mr. Head recommended it?
Mr. James. Mr. Head saw it coming and I am sure recommended it.
Mr. Eberharter. Did he recommend a method by which it could
be accomplished?
Mr. James. No.
Mr. Eberharter. Or any steps or procedure for its accomplish-
ment?
Mr. James. I don't think he did.
Mr. Eberharter. Just generally recommended it?
Mr. James. Generally recommended it. I know that he deeply
resented two things: The coming of the parolees from Bismarck and
New Mexico, and the dumping into Poston of these subversive
elements from Santa Anita and criminal elements from Los Angeles.
Mr. Eberharter. Those could have been, and in your opinion
should have been, segregated immediately?
Mr. James. Definitely.
Mr. Eberharter. And they could have been segregated?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Without any difficulty?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. And with complete justification?
Mr. James. With complete justification; yes. They had already
been involved in an incident at Santa Anita.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9145
Mr. Eberharter. That is all I have.
Mr. CosTELLO. If that had been done it would have been a com-
paratively simple matter to pick up other troublemakers in the camp
from time to time and segregate them likewise?
Mr. James. That is right. It could have been done very humanely.
Those men and their families could have been picked up and deposited
in some other center especially created for the handling of trouble-
makers.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you, with your knowledge of Japanese
psychology, tliink that would have had a good effect on the rest of the
•Japanese in the relocation centers?
Mr. James. It would have bolstered up the Americanism of the
young, inmiature Nisei. They looked to us to do it.
I think the average Nisei when they first came into the camp,
represented a very fine type of youth. They were very much like our
own American-born youngsters. I am talking now in terms of a year
ago — May and June a year ago.
They were interested in the things that other American kids are
interested in — sports and various American activities. They were
not strong enough, however, to stand up against their elders and
against the small fractional group which had been indoctrinated and
given, probably given instructions from representatives of Imperial
Japan as to just what to do.
As this program developed I feel convinced in my own mind now,
that right from the start there was a small group who were determined
to destroy the usefulness to the United States of these American-born
Japanese. I think that they have been sucftessful. I think that the
record shows that.
Mr. Eberharter. So you think actually there is now less loyalty
on the part of a great number of these Japanese, less loyalty to the
United States than there was before they came to the camp?
Mr. James. I think that they are definitely confused and that they
have now developed very definitely an antiwhite feeling, an anti-
Hakujin feeling, and have become psychopathic cases, if you please,
where it is extremely improbable whether they can be resettled any
place until they have been reconditioned in the relocation centers.
Until segregation can be worked out and the vacuum that exists in
most of these centers eliminated, the vacuum being the absence of a
wartime spirit — of a feeling that they are playing a part in America
at war, I question very much whether we can salvage these potentially
fine American-born boys and girls.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without segregation, we definitely will not salvage
any of them?
Mr. James. Definitely.
Mr. MuNDT. Is the physical set-up in these camps such that
segregation can successfully take place within the boimdaries of a
smgle camp?
Mr. James. I wouldn't want to express an opinion on that, Con-
gressman Mundt. I think there are Army officials and certainly
F. B. I. officials, who could give you an expert opinion on that. I
wouldn't feel qualified, but in my own opinion, no; it can't be done.
Mr. CosTELLO. It wouldn't be practicable, for example, at Poston,
•to put all the segregated Japanese into camp three, for example?
' Mr. James. I doubt it.
9146 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLo. There would still be too much communication!
between camps one, two, and three?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. If that is correct, that it cannot be done, then segre-
gation cannot take place until the W. R. A. policy at the top, in
Washington, is changed?
Mr. James. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Knowing that the project directors themselves can
do nothing about segregating them?
Mr. James. That is right. And it now must be worked out on a
mass scale where if it had been worked, startmg a year ago last May,
it would have been confined to a few himdred. Now, your estimate
is as good as mine.
Mr. MuNDT. While it is undoubtedly true, we are not able to
attain anything like perfection in this segregation business, and you
would have to call in all the agencies of the Government and have an
enormous amount of investigators, is it not equally true that if the
policy of segregation was approved and authorized by Washington,
that each project director — Mr. Head at Poston and the other people
in the other localities, the next day would be able to recommend small
groups from their camps who should be segregated?
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. So that progress could begin at once?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Without any increase in cost or administrative per-
sonnel in the business of segregation if somebody at Washington
would order that policy?
Mr. James. That is right. I believe tliis too, that evacuation from
the west coast was an essential wartime movement. Those of us who
were born and raised out here feel in our hearts that was absolutely a
necessity. That there were unquestionably hardsliips rendered in the
mass evacuation, but nevertheless it was splendidly carried out by the
Army and its civilian agency, W. C. C. A. Similarly in the tremen-
dous problem of segregation hardships and injustices may occur, but
I feel that in the case of segregation not only will we have the support
of approximately 130,000,000 white Americans on the outside, but
we will also have the extremely appreciative support of those girls
and boys and the few aliens who appreciate what America means.
We will have their support and gratitude because they want these
malefactors, these subversive people moved out too.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words you believe that a majority of the
Japanese themselves would be better pleased if the roughneck ele-
ment were segregated away from these camps?
Mr. James. I certainly know that the women would. The women
want to be Americans. I pointed out yesterday that I am firmly con-
vinced some of those women would rather die than go back to the
bondage their mothers were in.
Mr. MuNDT. That should also be true of some of these men who
have tried to remain loyal during the strike?
Mr. James. That is true. It is true of such cases as the old alien
I pointed out to you, who raised and lowered the flag every day I
was there — Mr. Tashima.
Mr. MuNDT. And to correct or start the process of correcting this
perfectly indefensible position now existing in some of the camps, all
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9147
that is needed is for somebody in A\asliington to push a pen in the
proper direction at the proper time?
Mr. James. That is correct, in n^y estimation.
Mr. Steedman. Directino; your attention again to Kenji Ikeda,
have 3"ou inspected Ikeda's worlv record since he was at Poston?
Mr. James. I did, but I haven't the papers with me. He was
identified with the strike. He was a picket during the Poston dis-
turbances—a block picket representing a l)lock. I haven't his record
here, Mr. Steedman, so I cannot tell you what he was doing at Poston.
In other words, I don't know whether he w^as a goh player or not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether he was plying his trade as a
gambler at the Poston center?
Mr. James. I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Does organized gambling exist in the Poston
center?
^h. James. In a city of 18,000, I imagine there is. . These people
are like many other people of Asiatic origin — they like to gamble.
Mr. Steedman. Is gambling organized there?
Mr. James. I couldn't say; I am not familiar with that.
Wr. Steedman. Ikeda was very prominent in the judo club, I
believe you stated?
Air. James. Previously, yes. He was a retired middleweight judo
champion on the coast and he later used his talents to become a
bouncer for the Tokyo club.
Mr. Steedman. Continuing to read from the memorandum the
paragraph headed:
Case Histories Affecting Internal Security at Poston — Arms and
THE Evacuees
The Office of the United States Army Engineers at the Poston project con-
fidentially reports that whenever such material as pipe, or reinforcing steel has
been used on the project for construction, hundreds of left-over pieces have been
appropriated by the Japanese.
Mr. James. That should not be the "Army Engineers." It should
be "U. S. E. D." For the sake of the record, I know Mr. Georgia's
connection and l\lr. Ferguson's connection. It isn't the Armv; it is
theU. S. E. D.
Mr. CosTELLO. This designation of the branch of the service that
Mr. Georgia and Mr. Ferguson are in is incorrect?
Mr. James. It is incorrect. It should be U. S. E. D.
Mr. Steedman. Did this. matter of the Japanese appropriating
left-over piece of pipe come to your attention w^hile you were at the
center?
Mr. James. Yes; there were hundreds of pieces of small pipe
that were left over from the construction of the sewage-disposal
plant and other works where reinforcing steel w^as needed and where
plurribing was used.
Mr. Steedman. And were the pieces of pipe that were stolen the
same type of pipe that was used to beat up Kay Nishimura?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese armed with pipe during the
so-called strike or riot?
Mr. James. Well, I never saw any, but I imagine in a state of affairs
such as existed there, unquestionably certain elements did carry
9148 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
pieces of pipe. It would be natural that they would want to defend
themselves.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am quoting again from the
memorandum:
On or about August 15, 1942, at approximately 6 p. m., the following incident
occurred at Poston Camp IIT, involving a Mr. Steele, subforeman for Del E. Webb
Construction Co. Mr. Steele and a helper had just completed work at the
Poston Til sewage-disposal plant, located in an area of that camo as yet unoccu-
pied by evacuees.
The policies laid down by Mr. Wade Head, the project director, and the ad-
ministrator of Poston, Mr. Moris Burge, traffic laws are enforced by Japanese
policemen who have control over both Caucasian and Japanese traffic.
Mr. Steele and his helper left the sewage-disposal plant in a pick-up truck and
were progressing through Poston III at a .speed of approximately 35 miles an
hour ?violating the 10-mile-an-hour limit posted on signs throughout this camp)
when thev were stopped by an evacuee policeman who attempted to arrest Mr.
Steele. Bitter words followed, and Mr. Steele struck the policeman on the arm
with a tool carried in the car. Tlie policeman then called for help and within 2
minutes the car was surrounded b}' a group of angry Japanese. The size of this
crowd was estimated to be between 20 and 50 men. They were armed with clubs,
pieces of pipe, and pieces of reinforcing steel.
The windshield on the car was broken, and one fender damaged. Mr. Steele
was taken to the Poston III police station, but in the meantime the helper escaped.
The evacuees rushed to a telephone and telephoned to the Signal Corps unit
located in Poston II. In a very short space of time the Signal Corps unit arrived
and took over the police station at the point of drawn automatic rifles. The
project director and his assistants arrived on the scene and the dispute was
temporarily settled.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the incident that I have just read?
Mr. James. I do. I think there is a mistake there. I think it was
the helper who was with Mr. Steele that called the Signal Corps unit
and not the evacuees.
As a matter of fact, I am quite sure it was not the evacuees who
called the Signal Corps unit for help. It was the helper, but that is
substantially correct, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Signal Corps unit have to rescue Mr.
Steele from the Japanese policemen?
Mr. James. What happened was, as I recall it, the helper forgot to
call the military police; he called the Signal Corps instead. Actually
there was a mix-up on that case. The military police, as I understand
it, under the terms of the agreement set down by the War Depart-
ment and the War Relocation Authority cannot enter the camp
except on the request of the project director.
In this case, however, Mr. Steele's helper called the lieutenant in
charge of the Signal Corps for help and he rushed in to move Mr.
Steele out of the jail.
There was a question there as to whether the Japanese police at
Poston had the right to arrest a white man for a violation of a speed-
ing law which had been set up, presumably by the Japanese them-
selves. I recall that there was a good deal of tension in the No. Ill
unit at Poston — that is Poston No. Ill, as a result of this incident.
It is quite true these men who surrounded the car were armed with
short pieces of pipe and clubs and that they did do damage as stated in
that report.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese attack Mr. Steele after they
arrested him?
Mr. James. I believe that in the office of the Del E. Webb Con-
struction Co. at Phoenix, Ariz., there is an affidavit in connection with
UN-AMERICAN" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9149
that incident and to the best of my recollection in that affidavit Mr.
Steele was not molested when he was in the Poston III police station.
The molestation occm-red when the policeman laid a hand on Mr.
Steele and attempted to take him from the car and when the mob
came — not a mob, but when this crowd of 20 or ;30 men rushed to the
assistance of the policemen, they, too, attempted to hustle Mr. Steele
out of the car by laying hands on him. That is all in the affidavit, I
believe, that is on file in the office of the Del Webb Construction Co. in
Phoenix. I recall seeing that affidavit and it was signed by Mr.
Steele.
Mr. Steedman. And reading further from the memorandum:
Additional Source op Information
In the possession of the Del E. Webb Construction Co., Mr. Charles Newell,
superintendent, there is an affidavit from Mr. Steele setting forth further par-
ticulars.
Although evacuee baggage has been subject to search bj' the provost marshal
guards upon the arrival of Japanese groups at Poston, no check for contraband
items has ever been made on hundreds of parcel post packages and express
bundles which arrive on the project each day.
In connection with the statement I have just read, has a search
of baggage been instituted since the writing of this memorandum?
Mr. James. There has. Lieutenant General DeWitt issued a
special order, I believe, in November of 1942, and, to my knowledge,
the military police search or examine all parcel-post packages which
arrive at Poston.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is the military police and not the Japanese?
Mr. James. Not the Japanese. The military police do that.
Mr. CosTELLO. Speaking of the Japanese police, do they have
authority to arrest any of the white personnel who might violate any
traffic regulations or would distrub the peace, or so on?
Mr. James. It is a little confused, Mr. Costello, as to just what
the set-up on that is.
When this Steele incident occmTcd, for a short period of time, for
about a month, they presumably had the right to arrest white people
for speeding. I don't know whether the code of laws in Poston has
ever been recognized by the W. R. A. and the Indian Service.
I know the temporary code was drawn up and forwarded to Wash-
ington, but I am not sure whether that has been okayed.
Mr. Costello. With reference to the Steele incident and in order
that the record may be perfectly clear, did I imderstand you to say
the Japanese police officers placed their hands on Mr. Steele at the
time the officer stopped him to arrest him for speeding?
Mr. James. That is correct, whereupon Mr. Steele reached in his
glove compartment and pulled out a small wTench and hit the policeman
on the arm.
Mr. Costello. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. I contmue to quote from the memorandum:
Evacuees visiting in Parker, .\riz.. have occasionally purchased knives in local
stores. The manager of a five-and-dime store reported in August that an evacuee
laborer had purchased several large knives '"at the request of his mess hall chef."
Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the situation which is
referred to in the paragi-aph I just read?
Mr. James. Not of the actual purchase of knives, although it is
probably true, Mr. Steedman. Our people used to go in there and
62626 — 43— VOL 15 21
9150 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
they were able to buy in Parker anything that the merchants would
sell them.
Mr. Steedman. Were there no restrictions as to what they could
purchase in the stores at Parker?
Mr. James. That is correct, up until the time they were no longer
permitted to do so.
Mr. Steedman. Were the pm-chases of the Japanese inspected when
they returned to Poston from Parker?
Mr. James. Presumably checked by the military police at the sta-
tion there — the guard station.
Mr. Steedman. Was it a part of the duties of the military police to
check all incoming parcels?
Mr. James. That is correct, they were supposed to check all incom-
ing parcels but, on the other hand, it would be quite possible if a
Japanese had purchased a knife, to conceal it on his person.
Mr. Steedman. Was a list of contraband established?
Mr. James. Yes. Lieutenant General DeWitt set up the contra-
band items that were contraband in the camp.
Mr. Steedman. Were knives and other weapons on that list?
Mr. James. I am a little hazy on that, whether knives of a certain
length were contraband or not. To my Itnowledge knives were not
contraband but firearms were, though.
Mr. MuNDT. Was there a different list of contraband before General
DeWitt issued his order, or no list at all?
Mr. James. No. There was a list as to what constituted contra-
band within the Western Defense Command.
Mr. MuNDT. But no provisions were made for checking the incom-
ing packages?
Mr. James. No. That was a loophole so that it would be quite
possible for anyone to have shipped in certain items of contraband
through the mail by parcel post during the period that — the interval
before General DeWitt issued his order that parcels should be
inspected.
Mr. MuNDT. And that was a rather substantial loophole, was it
not?
Mr. James. Yes; I imagine it was.
Mr. Steedman. I am quoting again from the memorandum:
During periods of tension and conflict between evacuees and administration,
foodstuffs in sizable quantity have been taken from mess-hall storerooms for
hiding on the project.
Is that statement correct?
Mr. James. Yes. It was during the period from May through
November.
I would like to point out for the sake of the record, that since
January 1, Poston has been under a rationing system — ^even before
the country at large went on a rationing system when a very capable
steward, C. E. Snelson came in and did, in my estimation, a very
good job in cleanmg up a bad situation.
There have been, to my knowledge, no surplus foods nor have
there been opportunities for Japanese to cache food.
Mr. Steedman. Prior to that time had the}^ been caching food and
removing it from the storerooms and dining rooms?
UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9151
Mr. James. I believe in connection witlr the general strike there
was a good deal ol" food cached during the period of tension, and the
immediate days ahead or preceding the strike — 2 or 3 days preceding
the strike a lot of food did disappc^ar.
AJr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the project adminis-
tration instituted a search for hoarded food at the center?
Mr. James. I believe that one of Mr. Snclson's first acts when he
came on the project, under the direction of Mr. Empie, was to collect
this food — as much as could be brought in from mess halls — that is
the storerooms of mess halls — and from various hiding places.
Mr. Steedman. Hiding places in'iidc the Japanese barracks?
Mr. James. In the Japanese barracks, yes, sir; and in laundry
rooms, ironing houses, and things of that sort — places where food
could be stored, case goods, perhaps.
Mr. Steedman. Did you discuss this search with IMr. Snelson?
Mr. James. I did, but I am not in possession of any figures of the
amount of food that was brought back. I know it was a sizable
amount.
Air. Steedman. Do you have the approximate amount?
• Mr. James. No; I haven't. Air. Empie or Air. Snelson, I am sure,
could furnish those figures.
Air. Steedman. Was Air. Empie familiar with the searches made
by Air. Snelson?
Air. James. Yes. A lot of this food disappeared during Air. Town-
send's regime there.
Air. Steedman. That was when they were storing up food in antici-
pation of the strike or riot that did later occur?
Air. James. That is right. It has been my observation that the
same phenomena has occurred in other centers just preceding trouble.
Mr. Steedman. Quoting again from the memorandum:
Administration Attitudes Toward Disloyal Japanese
CASE history
On or about Jul}- 2, 1942, during the intake period coincident of the arrival of
3,800 evacuees from the Salinas assembly center, the following incident occurred:
A Mr. Henry Fujita, spokesman for a family of six, refused to sign either War
Relocation Authoritj' Form No. 1 or No. 2.
I believed you explained to the committee yesterday what Forms
1 and 2 were so I shall not go into that at this time.
War Relocation Authority Form No. 1 is used for enlistment in the Work Corps.
Form No. 2 is a simple affidavit not to engage in subversive activities against
the United States Government.
Since we were experiencing a daily temperature of 120° and 130°, and most of the
arriving Salinas evacuees were requiring treatment for heat prostration, I at-
tributed Mr. Fujita's sullen and antagonistic mood to these conditions. I there-
fore gave him 5 days, until July 7, at 5 o'clock to return W. R. A. Form No. 2,
the affidavit of loyalty, properly signed, to me.
In the ensTiing .5 days Mr. Fujita twice attempted to return the papers defyingly
stating that he would not sign the affidavit of loyalty.
Accordingly at 5 p. m., July 8, the deadline having been passed, Mr. Fujita was
brought to the administration building in Poston I by police escort.
In the office of Mr. Ralph Gelvin, associate project director, Mr. Fujita was
questioned by Mr. Norris James, press and intelligence officer, Mr. Theodore
Haas, project attorney, and Special Agent Ed Smart of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, Phoenix, Ariz.
9152 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Most of the questioning was conducted by Mr. Smart. Mr. Fiijita, while
insisting that lie was an American citizen (subsequently substantiated) gave
testimony with wide discrepancy about the years he admitted he spent in Japan.
Mr. Smart, through questioning, secured several admissions that Mr. Fujita had
Delonged to various Japanese organizations.
At this point Mr. Gelvin took over the questioning and directed them in such a
fashion that Mr. Fujita came to the realization that unless he signed the affidavit,
the administration would send him and his family out of Poston in the custody
of the Federal Bureavi of Investigation.
Mr. Smart indicated that he saw no reason, in view of Fujita's continuing sullen
mood and the damaging admissions he had already made, that the evacuee and his
family be allowed to remain. Nevertheless, the administration's' wishes were
permitted to prevail. Henry Fujita continues to live in Poston.
Do you recall that incident?
Mr. James. I do very well. I was a participant in it.
Mr. Steedman. And is Fujita still at Poston?
Mr. James. He is. He is the sort of person who, in my estimation,
should be subject to immediate segregation. The F. B. I. agent who
was present and questioning him discovered that Fujita belonged to
certain subversive organizations.
^ Mr. Steedman. Was he a member of the Black Dragon Society?
Mr. James. Not a member of the Black Dragon Society.
Mr. Steedman. In what organization was he a member?
Mr. James. Kibei Shiman, which is an overseas cultural branch
which can be traced directly to Toyama who directed the overseas
work of Japanese subversive activities.
Mr. Steedman. What other organizations did he belong to?
Mr. James. He belonged to the Junior Kenjin Kai, which has made
from time to time contributions to the Imperial Navy fund and
Imperial Army fund.
Mr. Steedman. What is Fujita's age?
Mr. James. I believe about 31.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Fujita is married?
Mr, James. I don't. I know that in his case he is dominated by
the rest of his family and they all refused to sign W. R. A. Form
No. 1, which v/as a sim.ple affidavit not to engage in subversive
activities or sabotage while at Poston.
In connection with that, Mr. Fujita came out with a fine bit of
double talk. He was asked directly by Mr. Smart if he was prepared
to make an oath on this affidavit. To the best of my recollection
Mr. Fujita replied:
When I make an oath in one person's house tliat means one thing; if I make it
in another person's house, that means another thing.
Mr. Steedman. Meaning his oath to the United States didn't
mean very much, is that correct?
Mr. James. Well, I woukhi't want to put that interpretation on
it but I would say that certainly the Japanese conception of an oath
differs completely from a white man's idea of an oath. In other
words he was capable of making an oath with his fingers crossed.
Mr. Steedman. Certainly the W. R. A. had sufficient evidence on
Mr. Fujita to segregate him?
Mr. James. They did, but there was no segregation program set
up at that time and no place to segregate him.
Mr. Steedman. In view of the information you had with regard to
Fujita when he came into the center, don't you think he should have
been segregated?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9153
Mr. Jamks. I think so. I think Mr. Smart slioiikl have been per-
mitted to take liim out. Mr. Smart said he liad enough evidence to
take him out.
Mr. Steedman. The point I am making is that even after they
learned the bad Japanese, they took no action to segregate them?
Mr. James. Simply because Washington would not set up a
policy of segregation.
Mr. MuxDT. Wasn't there a place where he could have been sent —
Bismarck or Santa Fe?
Mr. James. I believe now the administration took the position that
he was an American citizen and that American citizens could not be
sent to concentration camps such as Bismarck or New Mexico.
(Off the record.)
^Tr. Steedman. Contuming to read from the memorandum:
CASE HISTORY
On or about June 27, 1942, at approximately 10:15 p. m., Pacific standard time
(11:15 p. m. Mountain standard time), west-bound train No. 124 from Phoenix,
Ariz., to Los Angeles, crashed into a burning trestle 7 miles west of Earp, Calif.
The engineer and fireman were killed, and one Poston administrator, H. A.
Mathiesen, was seriously injured. Aboard that train were 25 United States Army
flyers, and 1 coach was filled with enlisted men.
This incident was thoroughly investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investiga-
tion, and it is well established that the trestle fire was the work of one or more
saboteurs. The burned trestle is located by air line some 20 miles from Poston I.
Mr. Steedman. Are the facts that I have just read into the record
true to the best of your knowledge?
Mr. James. They are. This train — that was an unusual case,
Mr. Steedman. Ver}^ seldom on that branch line are troops carried
from PhoenLx to Los Angeles. At least they were not being carried
over that line at that time. They had not been carried, according
to mv best recollection, for a peiiod of several months.
This was a special case where this car with young aviators, gradu-
ated from Luppe Field, were bound for Los Angeles. And there was
a coach filled with Negro soldiers.
There is no question in the minds of the investigating officers and
Sheriff of San Bernardino Countv as to its being sabotage.
Mr. Steedman. Did vou interview the investigating officers?
Mr. James. With the Federal Bureau of Investigation, I worked
with them down on the river.
Mr. Steedman. Did you work with them on that case?
Mr. James. \ did. I happened to have been, the night before, in
Needles, Calif., and I was awakened by the division superintendent
of the Santa Fe Railroad and went directly to the scene of the wreck,
arriving there at about 4 o'clock in the morning.
We were there before the Sheriff of San Bernardino County, and
an Indian trapper was there before the othei-s came up.
I woi'ked on the case for 2 days and I found down at the river signs
indicating the Japanese had camped there. 1 believe the F. B. I. was
able to get statements that they had actually camped there the night
of the train wreck but there was' nothing to indicate that they had gone
across the river. There were no marks or any way of identifying that
this was the work of Japanese.
However, the river could have been crossed, not at that particular
point but about a mile awa3^ There was a sandbar about a mile
away where it would have been easy for them to cross the river.
9154 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. What evidence of sabotage developed from your
investigation at the time?
Mr. James. It developed it was a candle stick type of fire. The
fire started from the base of the pihng, with nothing growing around
the piling to start the fire. It is just a dry wash. There was no mes-
quite or brush around the pillars holding up this trestle.
As I recall the wreck it had been timed perfectly. The trestle had
been weakened to the extent that the locomotive plowed down into
the wash and the baggage car jumped over the locomotive and No. 1
coach went into the wash. The car behind it, which had the young
flyers in it telescoped into the baggage car.
Most of the flyers, for your information, were taken to the Poston
General Hospital for hospitalization.
Mr. Steedman. How many people were injured or killed in the
wreck?
Mr. James. Two were kifled, to the best of my knowledge — the
engineer and the fireman. The baggage man was badly injured in the
wreck. Mr. Mathiesen was hospitalized for a period of about 4
months.
Now, may I go on a little bit further on that?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Was this bridge within the boundary of the project?
Mr. James. This was on the California side, Congressman.
Mr. MuNDT. Just across the river?
Mr. James. Across the river not over 18 miles away. It is flat
coulitry with the river in between, but there were sandbars in the
river so that it would be quite possible for an average swimmer to get
across the river. The river is quite shallow there.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have the Japanese been known to have gone
swimming in the Colorado River and to have crossed the river to the
California side?
Mr. James. I don't know about going across to the California side.
Mr. CosTELLO. I had a newspaper article which I believe was sent
into one of the local papers from a paper in Imperial Valley, indicating
that the Japanese have been known to have gone swimming in the
Colorado River and crossed to the California side, and to some extent
attempt to molest the white people who might have been swimming
also in the river on the California side.
Mr. James. For the sake of the record I would like to point out
that there were, at that time, still approximately 1,000 workmen em-
ployed by the Del E. Webb Construction Co. in completing the camp.
Some of these workmen were Negroes. They had been gathered
from all over the United States. Plumbers were employed from as
far away as New York City and obviously they were not the very best
type of workmen, because desert conditions are quite tough and the
better class of workmen were working here on the coast.
There was no check to my knowledge ever made by any of the in-
vestigative agencies of these workmen who were working on the
project.
Now, this type of bridge fire is very similar to a series of fires that
occurred in the Imperial Vafley, in Niland, Calif., and elsewhere,
where railroad trestles were burned and attempts were made, appar-
ently, to sabotage trains.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9155
lu those instances, however, there were no train wrecks. But tliis
one at Poston followed the general pattern of the so-called Niland
trestle burning.
Air. Steedman. Were any arrests made after this wreck?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Steedman. Did the investigatmg officers come to the conclu-
sion it was sabotage?
Mr. James. Definitely came to the conclusion it was sabotage.
Mr. Steedman. Had the Japanese been in the habit of camping or
picnicking in this general area along the Colorado River?
Mr. James. They had gone down to swim, yes. Now, as I say,
I am not in possession of any facts whatsoever to show that they had
ever crossed the river; that they were ever seen in the neighborhood
of the railroad bridge or the highway.
Mr. Steedman. Did the F. B. I. or any other investigating agency
ask the project director, Mr. Head, to ascertain how many Japanese
were out of the camp on the night of the wreck?
Mr. James. I believe they did, and I know that Mr. Head, to the
best of his ability, tried to find out who was away and who wasn't.
However, that is an enormous job.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Head would be dependent on the block
managers for that information; would he not?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. And don't you believe that is a very poor source
of information?
Mr. James. That was the only one he had available, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. MuNDT. In the similar type of bridge fires that you say took
place in the Imperial Valley, was that at a time when there were a
great many Japanese living in the Imperial Valley?
Mr. James. Those fires occurred before evacuation.
Mr. MuNDT. And did a large number of Japanese live in that
vicinity?
Mr. James. I don't know. I know there were prior to evacuation
several thousand Japanese living in the Imperial Valley and in
counties contiguous or adjacent to Imperial County.
Mr. MuNDT. Were they ever able to find out who started the fires
in the Imperial Valley?
Mr. James. No. To my knowledge those bridge disasters have
never been solved. However, in fairness to the Japanese, I would
like to point out that whoever is responsible for that — the burning
of the trestle near Earp, Calif., must have been in possession of infor-
mation from Phoenix, Ariz., that this special trainload of young
aviators was leaving Phoenix.
It would require quite a complicated system of espionage — a
complicated system of tie-ups.
Mr. MuNDT. How far is it from Phoenix to Parker?
Mr. James. About 230 miles. No, I will take that back — it is
185 miles.
Mr. MuNDT. Do the Japanese from the Poston center ever get
into Phoenix.
Mr. James. They at that time had never been near Phoenix.
Mr. MuNDT. But they were getting away as far as Parker?
Mr. James. They were getting away as far as Parker, yes.
9156 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Had there been any newspaper publicity regarding-
the departure of those aviators from Phoenix?
Mr. James. None whatsoever to my Ivuowledge.
Mr. Steedman. Have the Japanese hving in Phoenix been moved
to relocation centers?
Mr. James. No. The line ran through a section of Phoenix. Glen-
dale, Ariz., was omitted from the evacuation zone so there were actu-
ally Japanese in Glendale, Ariz., and in certain sections of Phoenix —
a few, I believe.
Mr. MuNDT. You mentioned yesterday that one of the evacuees,
or maybe more than one of the evacuees, from Poston, had been trans-
ferred to Glendale.
Mr. James. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Had any of those transfei-s been made prior to this
train wreck?
Mr. James. No. In this case that was this man Seta that we talked
about 3'^esterday who was removed for his own safety to Glendale.
Mr. Steedman. Is it your information that there is quite a large
colonj^ of Japanese living in and around Phoenix?
Mr. James. There are several hundred — primarilj^ in the Glendale
area. '
Mr. Steedman. And their status has not been affected by the evac-
uation of the Japanese from the west coast, has it?
Mr. James. That is correct. They were outside of the zone set up
by General DeWitt.
• Mr. Steedman. Agaui quotmg from the memorandum:
EVACUEE ATTITUDES TOWARD THE ADMINISTRATION
All members of the project administration are somewhat in the familiar "gold
fish bowl" position in relation to the evacuees. This has been accentuated at
Poston bv the formal pohcy laid down by John Collier, Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, that the Caucasian staff is at Poston "to serve the evacuees."
Friction between Japanese and Caucasians develops — from the evacuee, stand-
point— along several sources:
(a) Lack of materials to develop work projects.
(b) Administrative personnel at the project which is sometimes inferior in educa-
tion and (at least, judged by the Japanese themselves) inferior in ability to evacuees
serving in minor capacities under particular administrators.
(c) An attitude, in some quarters of the Poston personnel, which regards Japan-
ese as Indians and treats them as wards of the Government, i. e., paternally.
(d) A growing consciousness on the part of many evacuees that they are often
being used as human guinea pigs by doctrinaires, anthropologists, and well-mean-
ing social-service workers attached to the project staff.
As a result, there are two major trends in mass thinking which will directly
affect Poston during the autumn and winter months just ahead.
Is the information I just read true and correct, to the best of your
knowledge?
Mr. James. I would say it is basically true. You have a difficult
problem. For example, in the school system there, you will have a
number of white women who have been brought out of retirement,
and who, perhaps, have not been overly successful in the field of
education. They are paid on a standard of teachers' wages, com-
mensurate with what teachers are paid outside and beside them there
will be working Japanese teachers who hold Phi Beta Kappa keys
and receiving $16 and $19 a month — men and women who are ex-
tremely well educated.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9157
In my opinion naturally tliero would be a foolinp: of contempt,
perhaps, for someone who had been brought out of retirement. I can
see where there would be plenty of cause for friction.
Mr. Steedman (continuing to read from the memorandum):
CASE HISTORY
The duly elected community council of Poston I, chairmaned by Dr. Y. Ischi-
maru, and largely at his prompting, has developed a number of committees which
in the ensuing weeks will "investigate project management and project finances.'*
Mr. H. G. Palmer, project procurement officer, reports that on or about August
25, he was approached by Dr. Ischimaru who insisted that he be permitted to
bring in his own aceovuiting and purchasing experts to investigate why the project
is unable to requisition supplies more speedily.
Then in parentheses:
Source of information : Mr. Palmer, and Mr. Henry Smith fiscal officers.
Air. Steedman. Is that which I just read correct?
!Mr, James. Substantuilly so, Mr. Steedman. I think that this ia
another case where, because of leadership at the top in Washington,
the project officials were up against a very, very difficult job of ad-
ministration.
I happen to know this particular case quite well where the Japanese,
believing, in perfectly good faith, that they were at Poston and the
Caucasians were there to serve them, naturally felt that they had a
perfect right to investigate project management and to actively
participate in it.
Mr. Steedman. Did the investigation, suggested in what I just read,
take place?
Mr. James. I believe they attempted to, but Mr. Smith, being a
particularly strong-minded man said: "No" emphatically and I don't
think in his department there was any investigation.
Mr. Steedman. Was there an investigation in the other depart-
ments?
Mr. James. I believe there were. I am not acquiainted with what
departments were investigated.
Mr. Steedman. Was a similar committee set up in Poston II and
Poston III?
Mr. James. No. This was in Poston I.
Mr. Steedman. And the Japanese decided it was about time to
investigate the project?
Mr. James. That is right. Poston No. IIj I would like to point out
as I did yesterday, the people from Monterey County, Calif., have
given us very, very little trouble. The vast majority of them have
been e.\tremelj" loyal and extremely helpful even though they have,
perhaps, the toughest row^ of all of them, coming from the cool Cali-
fornia coast to these high desert temperatures.
Mr. Steedman (reading again from the memorandum):
Case History
Mr. Saburo Kido, president of the Japanese American Citizens League, and a
resident of Poston II, has publicly gone on record as stating that the Japanese
American Citizens League believes that, in view of the war and the demands that
are being made upon American manpower, that "most of the project administra-
tive jobs can be filled by loyal Japanese."
9158 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Then following that paragraph there is in parentheses:
Source of information: Mr. Kido, himself.
Is that information correct?
Mr. James. That is substantially true. I know Mr. Kido quite
well and I would say that statement approximates his views.
In September of last year, Mr. Kido, at that time I believe, was
perfectly reconciled to his people being permanently relocated in
Poston and other centers for the duration of the war and that they
felt, as the Army and as other branches of the armed services required
the needs of white men — the Caucasians — that they should be replaced
by loyal Japanese and the Japanese American Citizens League,
although it represents a minority of the American-born Japanese
citizens, was doing a very fuie job.
Mr. MuNDT. To the best of your knowledge, Kido was a loyal
Japanese, was he not?
Mr. James. He was, to the best of my knowledge, and extremely
helpful in the administration.
Mr. MuNDT. Let me digress from this particular line of testimony
for a moment: Have you any knowledge by which you can give the
committee an approximation of the number of Japanese in the
United States who are not subject to the evacuation order and who
are still living normal lives and in the commimities where they have
always been?
Mr. James. It would have to be a guess, Congressman.
Mr. CosTELLO. May I interrupt? I believe there were about
25,000 Japanese in the country outside of the 3 Pacific Coast States.
Mr. James. That would be my approximation — somewhere between
15,000 and 20,000.
Mr. MuNDT. Is there any special surveillance of them?
Mr. CosTELLO. Outside of the coastal area, there has been no at-
tempt to remove them from their homes or businesses. The only
ones who would be under any sort of surveillance would be those who
might be looked upon as possible enemy agents, the same as you
might find among Germans or Italians. No attempt has been made
to remove them from other cities such as Washington, New York, or
wherever they are.
Mr. MuNDT. Are the Japanese, Mr. James, in these detention cen-
ters or relocation centers, permitted to correspond with Japanese
living normal lives in the areas where evacuation has not taken place?
Mr. James. Yes; they are. There is no mail censorship whatso-
ever in any of the centers. They can write to the coast to friends
who are there — friends of any race and write them anywhere in the
continental United States. And for that matter I presume outside
of the continental United States subject to censorship at the border.
Mr. MuNDT. Phoenix is not in the evacuated area, is it?
Mr. James. The line ran right through Phoenix. A portion of it
was.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean in the city of Phoenix there are Japanese
living on one side of a street while those on the other side were
evacuated?
Mr. James. That is correct. In fact in Glendale there was a very
unusual situation arose— Glendale, Ariz. The line of demarcation
made it impossible for the Japanese residing in Phoenix, who had
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9159
children, to send their children to the Glendale school. They had to
be sent to Peoria, Ariz., some 4 or 5 miles away because it was on the
WTong side of the line.
Mr. MuNDT. At least hypothetically, it would have been per-
fectly possible for a Japanese citizen with subversive inclinations,
living in Phoenix, to have written to a subversive Japanese in the
Poston project that this troop train was leaving on a certain date and
none of the Caucasian personnel would have learned anything about
that transfer of information?
Air. James. Yes. In a hypothetical case you can work out all sorts
of hypotheses along that line. Yes; it was possible for a Japanese
residing in Poston, if you want to put another hypothetical case in,
because there was a great deal of money within the city to have actually
put up the mone}' for sabotage to be conducted by someone else—
perhaps a man working for Del Webb Construction Co,
Air. jMundt. But about the only h^^potheses we could establish
which would make that seem improbable is that the Japanese are not
interested in sabotaging our troop trains?
Mr. James. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. Up until the time you left Poston, had the project
received any evacuees from Hawaii?
Mr. James. None, Mr. Steedman, except those who were caught on
the coast when evacuation took place.
There were some who were attending school in the south here, or
who were living here or over here on visits, but they to my knowledge,
up until the time I had left there, there had been no movement of
Japanese from the Territory of Hawaii into Poston.
Mr. Steedman.' Have the officials at Poston received any informa-
tion from Washington indicating that evacuees from Hawaii would be
quartered at Poston?
Mr. James. Not until the time I had left. There had been some
discussion late last fall when General Emmons indicated that a. few-
Japanese, number undisclosed, were to be evacuated from Hawaii.
Mr. Steedman. But up until the time you left Poston, had the
project received any evacuees from South American countries?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. Again there had been rumor
and talking on that — -that we might possibly receive sorne.
Mr. Steedman. That is Japanese who were living in Brazil or
Bolivia were being evacuated and sent to the United States?
Mr. James. That is correct. There has been a movement of
Haw^aiian Japanese to other centers. There is a camp in Arkansas
which has received Japanese from Hawaii.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to return to the South American
Japanese for a moment. Have you seen any correspondence at
Poston indicating that subversive Japanese from South American
countries would be quartered at Poston?
Mr. James. I have not.
Mr. Steedman. I continue to read from the memorandum:
CASE HISTORY
Between August 15 and September 15, two nien and two women from the
Rochdale Cooperative Institute of New York City were brought to Poston under
a contract between the Indian Service and Rochdale to lecture on the operation
of a consumer cooperative system of stores and factories.
9160 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Arriving in Poston, the Rochdale representatives intensively worked the field.
Upon the advice of the ,' Japanese minister, these cooperative
experts in lectures and in written publicity — both in English and in Japanese —
stressed the point that Issei were not being represented in Poston politics, nor
in the economic program of the project but that this would be remedied if —
and I might add at this point that the word "if" is underscored,
they supported their (the Rochdale) program for consumer cooperatives.
On or about September 6, the Rochdale people shipped in from New York
headquarters three short reel colored films dealing with cooperatives. These
were included in the usual public showing of movies for the benefit of the people
of Poston.
At the first public meeting, an audience of approximately 1,500 sat silently
through the first cooperative film, mildly demonstrated throughout the second,
but raised such furor during the showing of the third film that the entire exhibi-
tion had to be called off.
The films were not subsequently shown.
Nevertheless, in view of a War Relocation Authority directive that all projects
must accept a form of consumer cooperative for the operation of the evacuees'
own stores, shops and factories — Poston is proceeding to install such a system,
even though it has not been put to a test vote by the people.
Then following that paragraph in parentheses:
Sources of additional information — copies of petition form in Japanese and
English circulated by Rochdale people — statements from R. G. P'ister, chief,
temporary administration of Poston Community Enterprises.
Mr. Steedman. Can you tell us whether the informat'on I have
just read from the memorandum in question is true and correct?
Mr. James. It is correct. The operation of their own stores,
canteens, barber shops, shoe-repair shops, and beauty shops — that
is their own enterprises, where they have put up their own money,
the W. R. A. insisted that a form of consumer cooperatives be estab-
lished in their stead.
To further that cause the Japanese were opposing the cooperative
idea. Most of the Japanese, apparently, wanted the operation under
a trust agreement wherein there would be a white administrator rep-
resenting the Government and acting as an umpire and arbiter and
overseer. They wanted that form, but this W. R. A. directive em-
phatically stated that a form of consumer cooperative must be estab-
lished, so to educate the Japanese as to the- value of consumer coop-
eratives, these four people were sent out from Rochdale Institute and
to the best of my knowledge, spent a month there.
Mr. Steedman. Were these four people from Rochdale paid by the
Government?
Mr. James. They were paid by the Government; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know how much they were paid?
Mr. James. To the best of my knowledge, it was around — some-
where between $2,500 and $3,000 for the month they spent there.
That is collectively for the four people.
In addition to that, there were one or two experts in consumer credit
unions who were there at the same time, endeavoring to instruct the
Japanese as to the value of that type of organization.
Mr. Steedman, Were those people from a private organization?
Mr. James. I believe they were.
Mr. Steedman. Do you loiow the name of that private organiza-
tion?
Mr. James. Well, it is a New York City organization, Mr. Steed-
man. I can't think of the name of it now.
' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9161
Mr. Stekdiman. Do you recall the names of the four representatives
from the Roch(hile Cooperative Institute?
Mr. James. There were a ^[r. and Mrs. Perkins and Aliss Arnold.
I can't recall the naino of the fourth one.
Mr. Steedmax. Do you have the first names of Air. and Mrs.
Perkins?
Mr. James. No; I haven't. Reference to the Poston Daily
Chronicle of those dates would give you that information. They
lectured about the camp for a period of about at least a month. They
met opposition because most of our Japanese are extremely brand-
conscious. They don't want to buy anything except branded mer-
chandise.
At that time there was no rationing, of course, and the stores were
selling canned goods, cigarettes, and such things and they did not
want to buy the consumer-type brands because they didn't have
confidence in them.
Mr. EnERHARTER. Were the two credit-union men also paid by
the Government?
Mr. James. They were paid by the Government, too.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you know how much tliey were paid?
Mr. JAArES. No; I don't know.
Mr. MuNDT. I am not just clear about this matter yet. Had there
been auy demand on the part of the Japanese for consumer coopera-
tives of any kind?
Mr. James. Except from one source: From the so-called Christian
m.inister, ^, whose name I asked to be left out yesterday
because he is being investigated, and the group — — ^, formerly
of Bakersfield, Calif., had formed with the help of — ■ ^, this
Nori food king from Japan.
They had formed an adult study group to study consumer coop-
eratives. I was suspicious because — • ,^ according to his
own admissions, was a rugged individualist who had come up through
the competitive system of Japan and why he should be interested in
consumer credit unions was a puzzle to me.
It became apparent that ^ and ,^ and
their group, through their influence with Commissioner Collier, were
endeavoring to secure control over the economic life of the camp.
Mr. MtTNDT. How large was the group you are speaking of?
Mr. James. A group of about 20 people. Later on it developed
that ^ organized it on a block-to-block basis. That is,
he had the representative for the proconsumer operative working on
the block- basis.
Mr. MrxDT. Did they communicate directly with Mr. Collier?
Mr. James. ^ quite frequently wrote letters to Com-
missioner Collier.
Mr. MuNDT. But there was no request for a consumer's cooperative
movement that came from the project?
Mr. James. Not to my knowledge. May I cany this on a bit
further, Mr. Steedman?
Mr. CosTELLO. You do not want the name of the minister or tht'
merchant to be used?
Mr. James. They can be referred to as a "Christian minister" or
as a "wealthy Japanese."
' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costellc.
9162 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Indicative of the attitude that the majority of the camp felt,
particularly the American-born, about 1 month after the visit of
these Rochdale people, ^ succeeded in calling an electioQ
under the provisions of these W. E-. A. orders — an election for dele-
gates to a temporary community cooperative congress, which was to
set up the machinery whereby this consumer cooperative could take
over the already successful community enterprises which were operat-
ing under these shops on a trust-agreement basis.
For your information the gross, the monthly gross, on these various
enterprises operated by the Japanese was around $90,000 a month.
This election was held and the candidates that were put up were
largely ^ men. In both instances this was only one man
from every block. And as I say, they are the ones who more and
more have been taking over the control of the community enterprises,
where, up \mtil March of 1943, the working personnel of this sizable
merchandising organization was. American-born Japanese headed by
Fred Ota. They are now being replaced by aliens.
The present general manager of Poston community enterprises,
soon to be "Poston cooperative enterprises," is Mr. S. Y. Katow,
formerly a director and general manager of the Asia Co. of Los
Angeles.
To my knowledge Mr. Katow is a very loyal Issei. However, he
is directly under the influence and under the direction of the
,^ because ^ is chairman of the new board of
trustees which has been elected by his own cooperative congress for
the operation of the Poston cooperative enterprises.
Mr. Steedman. Have the cooperative enterprises been turned over
to the consumer council?
Mr. James. The community enterprises, operating formerly on a
trust agreement, are now in the process of being turned over to the
Poston cooperative enterprises.
Mr. Steedman. And is that in line with the Rochdale plan?
Mr. James. In line with the Rochdale plan, yes. Whether they
will use the Rochdale merchandise or not, I am not sure. I am rather
inclined to doubt it in view of the opposition of even the alien Japanese
— I mean even the pro-cooperative Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Is there any historical background for consumer
cooperative organizations in the Japanese culture or history?
Mr. James. Not this type of consumer cooperative. They are, so
far as production is concerned. They were quite successful on the
west coast but they consisted largely of families. Our Japanese are
very peculiar. They are just as they are in the old country in the
suspicions that they have against one another. They are a reticent
people. They don't confide in each other. Even the men don't
confide very much with one another. They tell one another no more
than they think the other one knows unless they have some par-
ticular reason, and your business organizations are largely on a family
basis. At least they were here in California.
We witnessed a number of farm cooperatives which were small, but
they were producing cooperatively largely on a family basis. And
where there may have been isolated instances of retail cooperatives,
again they were on a family basis.
' Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9163
Mr. Steedman. I would like to call your attention to a sentence
in the niemorandiini to the effect that the Japanese "raised a furor
durinsr the shownie: of the third film, and the entire exhibition had to be
called off."
Apparently the Japanese didn't like the idea of cooperatives; is that
correct?
Mr. James. Definitely. The meetings held by the Perkins and
Miss Arnold were veiy fully attended. The Japanese were very luke-
warm to the Rochdale plan of consumer cooperatives or a consumer
cooperative.
Mr. CosTELLO. Does the Rochdale Institute supply commodities
for sale in the cooperatives?
Mr. James. They have, I believe, a tie-in with various consumer
sources of supply — consumer-cooperative sources of supply.
They have a certain cigarette that they handle, with a brand on it
and similarly in canned goods.
Mr. CosTELLO. But those commodities are not the standard brands?
Mr. James. That is right. These people, for example, are sold on
Buick automobiles. They are extremely brand conscious in their
prejudice against certain types of food and merchandise. They
want Del Monte canned goods.
Mr. CosTELLO. Because they are accustomed to certain quality
under brand labels?
Mr. James. Yes^ sir; and they won't buy anything else.
Mr. MuNDT. Did this quartet of people from the Rochdale move-
ment come to Poston with the permission of Mr. Collier or Mr. Myer,
or both?
Mr. James. Well, I imagine that the thing met with the approval
of Mr. Dillon Myer, because Mr. Myer, 1 know, had drawTi up this
directive which expressly provides for the establishment of consumer
cooperatives, and insisted that that was the only form it should take.
Mr. MuNDT. Apparently then the cooperative sponsors at Poston
first contacted Mr. Collier and then Mr. Collier contacted Mr. Myer?
Mr. James. That is correct. You see there is no provision under
the W. R. A. set-up for private enterprise to be practiced at the
centers, although in my experience a great many Japanese would like
to have a form of private enterprise. They w^ould like to be' self-
supporting.
Mr, CosTELLO. The whole effect then of this transfer from the
trust agreement arrangement over to the cooperative program has
been to destroy the existing situation and change the personnel and
the management?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. And it means that alien thinking and alien control
actually comes into it instead of the loyal American control W'hich
existed previously?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Has it also had the effect of switching over to a
different brand of merchandise or a different type of merchandise?
Mr. James. Of course since rationing went into effect in this
country, gentlemen, it has been extremely difficult for the Japanese
to secure merchandise for their small stores. Certainly they can
secure nothing that O. P. A. has on a ration basis because rationed
9164 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
goods are not permitted to these Japanese. That is with the exception
of clothing. They are still able to get some clothing.
There is a tremendous problem out there on shoes. We have an
awful time getting around that coupon No. 17 business, but special
arrangements have been made with the O. P. A. on that.
Mr. MuNDT. You indicated the Japanese like to buy Del Monte
canned goods?
Mr. James. I mentioned that as onl}?^ one item.
Mr. MuNDT. Doesn't the consumer cooperative sell Del Monte
canned goods?
Mr. James. Can't get Del Monte canned goods out there.
Mr. MuNDT. They don't show any special preference for any other
brands?
Mr. James. I happen to be speaking particularly of the Monterey
County crowd which I know quite well and, by and large, they are
sold on Del Monte goods. They know the brand and have extreme
faith in it.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to clear up one matter. The Roch-
dale Institute does not sell regular brand names, do they?
Mr. James. No. Most of these consumer cooperatives, as I under-
stand them, sell unbranded merchandise or merchandise which bears
the brand of the cooperative.
I^Ir. Steedman. As a matter of fact Japanese are opposed to the
system of unbranded merchandise?
Mr. James. That is right, definitely.
Mr. Eber barter. There is one thing I would like to clear up:
Was the opposition to the establishment of a cooperative system itself,
or was it to the result which would come about — that they would
have to purchase particular types of merchandise?
Mr. James. The Japanese never favored a semitype of cooperative — -
a cooperative wdiere there would be at the top a Caucasian supervisor.
Mr. Eberharter. Then they really favored a cooperative system?
Mr. James. Yes; broadly.
^1r. Eberharter. Broadly? But there were certain differences of
opinion as to how it should be operated?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Eberharter. But the main opposition, I take it from your
statement, is that they did not want to take the particular brand of
goods which they would have had to take had this Rochdale plan
been adopted?
Mr. James. That is correct. And they were opposed to it — I judge
the Nisei were opposed to it because they were suspicious and fearful
of — ^ because, particularly because of the important
position he had occupied during the Boston trouble from November 14
to November 25.
Mr. CosTELLo. Was it because of the possibility of these two or
three Japanese who were instrumental in bringing about this change
might have gained control of the cooperative and become the sole
beneficiaries of any benefits that might have accrued out of it?
Mr. James. No; I don't think so.
Mr. CosTELLO. You don't think it would develop into a situation
such as exists in Japan, where three or four families control the entire
wealth of the country?
> Name stricken from the record at the re ii:est of Thairman rostoUo.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9165
Mr. Jamks. You would have tremendous political power, whoever
controls the cooperative would have tremendous political power. He
could control a lot of things in the camp.
Mr. CosTELLO. They would not gain financial control or benefits
from it, but would have political control of tlie people themselves?
Mr. James. That is correct; yes. 1 bring this out to show you the
background struggle that has been going on in the camp, just as yes-
terday I cited the various steps leading to the trouble at Poston where
an attempt in that direction was made to destroy the American-born
Japanese.
Here there is another movement on the other side through the
economic channels of attempting to control their economic life.
Mr. MuNDT. Just another procedure in the pattern of certain
Japanese to break down the Americanism of the Japanese at Poston?
Mr. James. That is a hypothesis that I would agree with, I think
the pattern is there and I think it exists at every project.
Mr. CosTELLO. The leaders in the camp wdio are anti-American,
have seized upon every available opportunity they could find to use
it as a medium
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Whereby they would gain control of the people
there?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Air. CosTELLO. And subvert their loyalty?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; and to build up power.
Mr. Eberharter. I might make the observation here that I got
the impression that this cooperative movement came about because
of a directive from Washington?
Mr. James. It did. It very definitely did and they took advantage
of it, Congressman.
Mr. Eberharter. That is contrary to the theory, isn't it, that it
is the idea of this certam group of Japanese to gam control?
Mr. James. Well, let me make that point clear.
Mr. P^BERHARTER. That is what I would like to know.
Mr. James. The plan was set up by Washington, Congressman.
Mr. Eberharter. That is what we want clear.
Mr. James. Definitely. This plan was set up for the establish-
ment of consumer cooperatives at Poston following that and every
other center cooperative was established by that W. R. A. directive.
Mr. MuNDT. Under Myer or under Eisenhower?
Mr. James. Under Eisenhower — Milton S. Eisenhower.
The ^ nnd his group were the only- -that was the
only group that pushed this plan at Poston because the Indian Service
had originally adopted a plan similar to those that they use in various
reserA'ations for the o])eration and maintenance of communit}^ stores;
that is, where the Indian agents will actually be the supervisors or the
monitor of this particular store and where the people will share in the
profits is in dividends, but where Uiere will be at the top control,
semir-ontrol by this governmental agency.
That was the system that we had set up at Poston and which had
apparently been acceptable to the people.
Air. Eberharter. Then this directive had been in existence for
some tiTi">r>?
Mame stricken from t'^e rec )rd at the re juest of Chairman Costello.
62626— 43— vol. 15 22
9166 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. James. Yes. it had been in existence, to the best of my knowl-
edge, since June 1942, approximately 1 month before Milton S. Eisen-
hower resigned and Dillon Myer took his place.
Mr. Eberharter. It is not very clear in my mind jet. I don't
know whether you want to follow it any further but I don't see any-
thing we could deduce from what has been presented to us here with
respect to this cooperative thing.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to develop that a little further.
Mr. Eberharter. I wish you would, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Has Mr. John Collier been interested in the
Rochdale movement for some time?
Mr. James. I don't know. I believe he has. I think he is a close
friend of the head of the Rochdale Institute in New York City.
Mr. Steedman. Do you beheve the ^ was familiar
with Mr. Collier's interest in the Rochdale movement?
Mr. James. Yes; I do. One of ^ first steps when he
came to Poston was to establish by mail, and by personal interview
whenever Commissioner Collier came in, a close relationship with
Commissioner Collier.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think —_ ^ suggested the
sending to Poston of these Rochdale representatives?
Mr. James. I do. I think it is quite possible to produce correspond-
ence showing ^ actually recommended that cooperative
experts be sent from New York to lecture before the Japanese in
Poston.
Mr. Steedman. In other words ,^ Imowing that Com-
missioner Collier was interested in the cooperative movement, sug-
gested to him that he send representatives to the Poston center for
the purpose of setting up a Rochdale plan in Poston?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; I believe that.
Mr. Steedman. And these representatives were sent to Poston
following that?
Mr. James. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And as a result this plan has been put into effect?
Mr. James. It luls.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know — ^ intent or purpose in
setting up the Rochdale plan in Poston center?
Mr. James. All I know is the immediate effect. Here is a man who
emerged from Poston's general strike or disturbance, on the one hand,
as a powerful political leader, and paralleling that he emerges as the
chairman of the dominant economic factor in the life of Poston through
the cooperative enterprises.
Mr. Steedman. This change put — • ^ and his group in
control of the cooperative enterprises?
Mr. James. Definitely, yes.
Mr. Steedman. And the selling of this plan to Collier virtually
turned over this $90,000 a year business to the Issei and to the
- — — — ^ group?
Mr. James. It did; yes.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to continue reading from the memo-
randum the paragraph entitled, "The Absence of Sm-veillance":
Because of the liberalism of the Colorado River project administration, with
its emphasis upon social values, evacuees are under no surveillance. In the
3 Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
un-americajST propaganda activities 9167
absence of boundaries, they are permitted to wander at will, without military
.police escorts, anywhere to the east, west, or south of Poston. To the north,
a military police guard post effectively checks and examines all in-bound and out-
boimd traffic.
Because of the size of the project and the number of evacuees lioused, only the
most carefully supervised census could determine whether any evacuees are miss-
ing.
It is not unreasonable to believe that there are at least 200 evacuees in Poston
who in the past or at the present time have engas;ed in espionage for the Japanese
P^nipire. This would roughly tie in with the Federal Bureau of Investigation's
own estimates that, subsequent to December 7, 1941, for every Japanese agent
arrested, one or more unknown agents escaped. Who these possible suspects
are, what, if any, subversive activities they are now engaged in, what outside
contacts they have, and to what extent they can engage in external subject, are,
of course, unsolved.
However, it is the writer's personal belief that any creditable information cannot
be developed from —
(1) The Nisei or loyal Americans, because of present material and psychological
trends within the project.
(2) The former Federal Bureau of Investigation Japanese informers — who were
never reliable sources of news in the first place — and who now are in the unhappy
position of living side by side with relatives of familj- heads, perhaps, interned in
Bismark or Santa Fe.
(3) The so-called Japanese Christian ministers — especially those who were
trained in the American Methodist schools in Japan.
And then following that paragraph in parentheses:
For some fine double talk in English, examine the files of the Poston Christian
Weekly church organ now in War Relocation Administration information files.
Mr. Steedman. Is the information I have just read from the memo-
randum true to the best of your knowledge?
Air. James. Yes, sir; for the period, Mr. Steedman, from approxi-
mately the middle of May to September 15, 1942.
Mr. Steedman. Has the project administration tightened up on
the Japanese aliens insofar as restricting them to the camp is con-
cerned?
Mr. James. It has now.
Mr. Steedman. In other words, they cannot come and go at will
at the present time?
Mr. James. That is correct. As far as getting into Parker, Ariz.,
it has developed within the last 2 months. Prior to that time they
were.
•Following the strike and disturbance at Poston; that is roughly,
from November through to the spring of the year, groups were per-
mitted to go into Parker just as they had in the period from May
through to the middle of September, but since March, in view of the
trouble that lias occurred at Parker, Ariz., very few have gotten in.
Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese aliens wander around outside of
the camp area in the desert without a pass from the project adminis-
tration?
Mr. James. Yes,, sir.
Mr. Steedman. At the present time?
Mr. James. Yes, sir. The place is so vast there, so huge, there is no
way of keeping them locked up.
\iv. Steedman. And they are only restricted insofar as the city
of Parker is conccnied?
Mr. James. That is right.
9168 UN-AIMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Do they go to the Colorado River without a pass
from the. project administration?
Mr. James. They can. The bomidary line of the Colorado River
project is the Colorado River itself. That is the western boundary
line.
The eastern boundary line is the road running from Parker to Poston.
Mr. Steedman. And they can move back and forth freely between
the three camps without a pass from the project administration?
Mr. James. That is correct.
Mr. Costello. I notice the memorandum refers to 200 Japanese at
Poston who were former agents of the Japanese Government.
Mr. James. I would revise that and say, if you say "agents" and
include those who engage in propaganda work or who had been
members of the various types of societies mentioned yesterday, I
would say probably 600.
Mr. Costello. In other words at Poston there are possibly 600
definitely known subversive Japanese?
Mr. James. Congressman Costello, I believe there are that many.
Mr. Costello. And if their records were mvestigated, they would
show they had affiliations with subversive activities?
Mr. James. If you start with the number that were returned from
the internment camps; may I go into that?
Mr. Steedman.- Go ahead.
Mr. James. Yesterday I said to the best of my knowledge 365 had
been returned to us. I checked the number last night and I find there
were 195 that were returned. The 365 that I referred to yesterday
were those who applied for repatriation to Japan. If you take the
195 that were returned from Bismarck and Santa Fe where the estab-
lished investigative agencies — theO. N. I. or the F. B. I. orG-2 — had
felt there was sufficient evidence to send those men to concentration
camps for the duration of the war, plus others who have since been
brought to light at the relocation centers, 600 would not be an un-
reasonable estimate of those against whom cases could definitely be
proven that they are dangerous to the country at large.
Mr. Costello. The figure of 600 would include the 195 from Bis-
marck and Santa Fe?
Mr. James. I would include them on the list; yes.
Mr. Costello. And would the 600 include the 365 that you refer
to as having requested repatriation?
Mr. James. No; that would be in addition.
Mr. Costello. That would be an additional group?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; who certainly should be segi^egatcd by all
means.
Mr. Costello. Let us make this clear. Some of the 365 might be
included in the 600?
Mr. James. They might be, now that you mention it, there prob-
ably would be some. There probably would be some who would bo
included in that figure.
Mr. Costello. But there are at least 600 who have the background
that would indicate definitely subversive tendencies?
Mr. James. I would stay with that figure; a minimum of 600.
Mr. Costello. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. T quote from the memorandum the paragraph
entitled:
UN-.-yviERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9169
Potential Saboteurs and Subversive Elements at Poston
If the Issei sjucceed in gaining control of the economic life of Poston through
investment of their funds in Poston Consumer Cooperative Enterprises, a major
opportunity is presented for internal sabotage; that is, turning hundreds of erst-
while loya! Americans of Japanese descent into persons of pronounced racial
antipathy toward Caucasians in general, and to extend this further toward a mass
acceptance of pro- Axis sentiments.
There are at Poston several evacuees of great financial power and ability and
there is nothing in the record thus far to prove that they are loyal (or for that
matter disloyal) to the United States.
CASE HISTORY
^ age about .50 years, is reported to be the "Nori" food king of
Japan. Since about 1920 he, by his own admission, has secured a virtual monop-
oly of the manufacture and sale of this seaweed product in the islands of the
Empire. In 1941, according to his story, he came to the United States, secured
a directorship in the Asahi Trading Co. of Los Angeles, and was exploring the
possibility of developing a market for his product on the west coast when the
war occurred.
At the present time, ^ jg living with the ■ — -3, a
Christian minister, formerly of Bakersfield, Calif.
With — ^ 3 ]^g lias headed a group, largely of Issei, who since June 1,
has campaigned for a consumer cooperative in Poston.
^, by his own admission, is worth in the neighborhood of
$5,000,000. Although his funds in this country are supposedly "frozen," he
seems to have sufficient ability to muster money for — ^.
It is difficult to see how ^. by his own admission a lifelong
Japanese industrialist used to highly competitive business, should become such
a staunch advocate of consumer cooperatives. It is easier to learn how he
dislikes and disapproves of American manners and customs accepted by many
of 3 Nisei parishioners.
Mr. Steedman. Is the information in this particular paragraph that
I have just read true and correct?
Mr. James. Yes; concerning this ^.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not ^ has
requested repatriation?
^Tr. James. I believe he has not requested repatriation, I don't
know.
Mr. CosTELLO. But he is only here as a visitor?
Mr. James. He is here as a visitor; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. So such a request would not be necessary?
Mr. James. It is true, as that report states, that ^ has
been and still is to the best of my knowledge, rooming with the
Mr. .Costello. As far as the war is concerned, as soon as the war
is over, ^ would definitely have to return to Japan?
Mr. James. Yes, sir; that is right. He would have to go back to
Japan.
Mr. Steedman. This memorandum states that ^ was
a director in the Asahi Trading Co. of Los Angeles?
Mr. James. Yes; he was.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that the Japanese who has
recently been placed in charge of the consumer cooperative at Poston
was formerly connected with the Asahi Trading Co. of Los Angeles?
Mr. James. A question on that, Mr. Steedman. The man who is
now in charge of the Poston Cooperative Enterprises is Mr. George
Y. Katow, who was general manager and director of the Asia Co, of
Los Angeles.
»Name stricken from the record at the request of Chairman Costello.
9170 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. There is a difference in the companies?
Mr. James. Yes. Mr. Katow has not been in Japan for 30 years.
I have every reason to believe that he is loyal but he is at
the present time, under the direction of the ■^, who is
the chairman of this all-important board of tru&tees of the Poston
Cooperative Enterprises.
Mr. Steedman. Under the law ^ is allowed to draw
from frozen funds $500 a month; is he not?
Mr. James. I am not sure on that point, whether it is $100 a month
or $500 a month. But he can definitely draw, to the best of my
knowledge of that law, he can draw certain sums each month.
Mr. Steedman. I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. Does that include your interrogation of the witness?
. Mr. Steedman. That is right.
Mr. Costello. Anythmg further this morning?
Mr. Steedman. No, sir.
Mr. Costello. We appreciate very much, Mr. James, your having
appeared before the committee.
I think you have been extremely frank and a very capable witness,
and we appreciate it very much.
Mr. James. I would like to put in one further remark in the tran-
script that I have fully appreciated the difficulties with which the ad-
ministration at Poston has worked ; that I have found after being asso-
ciated with them for a year to the best of my ability, the director and
other administrators of the project are attemptmg to do a good job.
But in my opinion they are handicapped by insufficient direction at
Washington; and that they have been handicapped further by con-
fusion and by uncertainties created by a lack of policy at Washington
in the problem of segregation of disloyal and subversive Japanese.
Mr. Eberharter. In other words, they are conscientious and a
hard-working group?
Mr. James. That is the only thing I have attempted to put forward
on my own and you may take it for what it is worth.
Mr. Costello. I thmk you have helped us very materially in
getting a clearer picture of the situation in the camp and the condi-
tions under which the camp is being operated, as well as the many
difficulties which the administrators of the camp are confronted with^
and to that extent materially aids us.
Mr. James. I feel if they were able to do so they would concur with
me ; and that is my last observation.
Mr. Costello. We wish to thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Costello. The committee will stand adjourned until Tuesday
morning at 10 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 1 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 10 a. m.,
Tuesday, June 15, 1943.)
'Name stricken from the record at the requ irman Costello.
INVESTiaATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
TUESDAY, JUNE 15, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to
Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States
Post Office and Court House, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. John M.
Costello, chairman of the subcommittee, presidmg.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter, and
Hon. Karl E. Mundt.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee,
acting coimsel.
Mr, Costello. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Steedman, will you call the first witness.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, we have a delegation here today
from Phoenix, Ariz., composed of Mr. Lin B. Orme, president of the
Salt River Valley Water Users' Association, Mr. Harold R. Scoville,
county attorney of Maricopa County, Mr. Lon Jordan, sheriff of
Maricopa County and Mr. Irving Jennings, who is an attorney in
Phoenix.
These gentlemen came from Phoenix to Los Angeles to testify
regarding the Japanese problem as it affects the State of Aiizona and
particularly the section sun'ounding the city of Phoenix.
Our first witness is Mr. Orme, who has a prepared statement for the
committee.
Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Orme?
TESTIMONY OF LIN B. ORME, PRESIDENT OF THE SALT RIVER
VALLEY WATER USERS' ASSOCIATION
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Costello. "\^ ill you please state your full name to the reporter?
Mr. Orme. Lin B. Orme.
I have this statement and if you gentlemen have no objection I
should like to read it.
Mr. Costello. You may proceed, Mr. Orme.
Mr. Orme. I am president of the Salt River Vallej^ Water Users'"
Association, and have been for the past 9 years.
Prior to that time I was vice president, and also served on the
council and was a member of the board of governors.
I have lived in the Salt River Valley near Phoenix since 1879,.
and have lived on, owned, and operated the same farm since 1896.
9171
9172 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The Salt River project operates what is generally known as the
Roosevelt project. It is a Federal reclamation project irrigating
approximately 250,000 acres of land surrounding Phoenix, Ariz.
The water supply comes from the Salt and Verde Rivers which
drain the mountains to the north and east of Fhoenix.
The two rivers come together 30 miles above Phoenix where the
water is taken out and distributed through our canal system which
irrigates the project in the Salt River Valley.
There is one large storage dam on the Verde River approximately
190 feet in height above the stream bed, and storing when full, nearly
200,000 acre-feet of water.
On the Salt River there are four large storage dams: Roosevelt
being the largest, which is 240 feet in height above the stream bed
and holds when full 1,650,000 acre-feet of water.
Below that is Horse Mesa which is 272 feet m height above the
river and stores 240,000 acre-feet of water.
Some 12 miles below that dam is the Mormon Flat Dam which is
150 feet above the stream bed and holds approximately 70,000 acre-
feet of water.
Some 10 or 12 miles on down is Stewart Mountain Dam which is
140 feet in height above the stream bed and holds 60,000 acre-feet.
An acre-foot of water is that amount of water which will cover an
acre of land 1 foot in depth. All reservoirs when full store nearly
2,000,000 acre-feet of water, or sufficient water to cover the entire
project approximately 8 feet in depth.
The St. Francis Dam which went out a number of years ago con-
tained only 24,000 acre-feet of water. The two dams recently blown
up by the British in Germany had a capacity of approximately 250,000
acre-feet of water.
Roosevelt Dam alone when full holds six times that amount of water
and at the present time has four times that amount of water in storage.
If any one of the dams should be blown out, it would cause disas-
trous floods. If any one of the dams on the Salt River would go out,
it would unquestionably cause the other dams below to break and go
out, and cause one of the great disasters of American history. If
Roosevelt Dam should be blown up unquestionably all Phoenix would
be under many feet of water, and the loss of life and destruction of
property would be enormous.
The main line of the Southern Pacific Railroad crosses and runs
close to the Salt River for many miles. Any such flood as I have
described would put the main line of the Southern Pacific out of
commission for many months. Thousands of troops pass over that
railroad every week.
The entire cultivated area of Maricopa County, which is the county
in which Phoenix is located, is approximately 400,000 acres; 250,000
acres of which is under the Salt River project.
Approximately 40 percent of the population of the State is in
Maricopa County, and the greater part of which live in Phoenix, and
in the cultivated area surrounding the city.
Some months prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese,'
the association placed guards on its dams. At the time of the attack
on Pearl Harbor the number of guards were increased. Since that
time from 24 to 30 have been used to guard the dams and power
plants of the association. Since July 3, 1941, the Government has
paid one-half of the cost of this guard duty.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9173
The Salt River Valley is not a semiarid country like southern Cali-
fornia. Crops cannot be grown without irrigation. Should anything-
happen to our dams which would release the water, economic life so
far as farming is concerned, with the exception of a small amount of
land that could be irrigated from the low flow of the river, and from
pumps, would cease.
The destruction of our dam system would also put out of commis-
sion our power plants. The production of power in this area is
between 600,000,000 and 700,000,000 kilowatt-hours per year.
All of our storage dams with the exception of one, have large
hydroelectric plants. In addition, we have five small hydroelectric
plants on our caiud system.
The total hydro capacit}- of these plants is approximately 100,000
horsepower.
We also have a new modern steam plant of approximately 37,000
horsepower and two Deisel plants of approximately 7,000 horsepower
each.
In addition the association purchases 40,000 horsepower from the
Government from the power plant just above Parker. All this power
is distributed by the association all through the Salt River Valley;
to the mines in the Globe-Miami and superior districts, and in the
. Casa Grande Valley for a distance of some 110 miles from Phoenix.
All told the association has approximately 1,500 miles of power
lines; operates 13 transmission substations and 8 smaller substations.
The Inspiration Copper Co., which produces something like 10,000,-
000 pounds of copper per month, gets its power exclusively from our
project. The Castle Dome Copper Co., a new mine which has just
come into production, depends exclusively on power from our associ-
artion. Its capacity is 10,000 tons of ore per day.
The Magma Copper Co., one of the large producers, also gets part
of its power from the association. There are other mining companies
which get smaller amounts of power from the association.
A large acreage of land is irrigated in this area from deep-well
pumps. The association furnishes the power exclusively to approxi-
mately 200,000 acres of such land.
The association also furnishes power to the Central Arizona Light
& Power Co., which in turn serves the city of Phoenix and most of
the smaller towns in the valley as well as a pumping area northwest
of Phoenix.
That company has an additional supply of power from a 60,000-
horsepower steam plant west of Phoenix, and it likewise gets 40,000
horsepower from Parker Dam over the same lines which serve the
association.
The power line which brings in this Parker power is unguarded.
The Parker Dam also supplies power to Tucson, Ariz., the second
largest city in the State of Arizona, as well as 7,000 horsepower to
the Indian Service at Casa Grande and Florence.
We have been uneasy over the safety of our dams and the safety
of our power stations ever since the war broke out. To guard all of
our power lines, dams, power plants, substations, and our main canals
100 percent would take an army of men.
The Japanese infiltration into this valley commenced several years
ago. Their standards of living are away below that of the other in-
habitants of the valley. That standard is not one of necessity but ap-
9174 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
parently one of choice. Sanitation around their homes could often be
described a Uttle less than filthy. They do not mingle with the white
people, but have built their own social centers and schools where their
own language is taught their children.
A number of years ago Arizona passed a law forbidding the owner-
ship of land to be in persons other than those qualified for citizenship.
That did not solve the problem.
Ownership of land was placed in the name of dummy holders or
corporations, and it was often very difficult to ascertain the true owner-
ship.
Since the Government has adopted the program of releasing the
Japanese from the two centers in Arizona, they and their agents are
trying to buy and lease large areas of land in the Salt River project.
There have been attempts at sabotage on the works of the project.
In November 1941 four Japanese tried to visit one of our dam sites.
As they had no passes thej^ were denied permission to go near the dam.
This year a shot from a rifle severed one of our high-tension power
lines. It was never discovered who did it.
In April 1942 three men attempted at night to enter the grounds
surroundmg the association's Diesel and steam plant. They were
detected and fired on by the guards, and the intruders returned the
fire. They had either revolvers or rifles. They were never appre-.
hended.
On July 31, 1942, five Japanese went fishing in Roosevelt Lake.
They stayed for some 24 to 48 hours. •Three of them were from the
Salt River Valley and two of them from Los Angeles. They did not
enter the restricted area, nor did they come near the dam, other than
to pass by it on the public highway which goes within a few feet of
Roosevelt Dam.
As I understand it, there are approximately 30,000 Japanese in the
two camps in Arizona. One of these camps is only 40 miles south of
Phoenix, and the other is at Parker, some 150 miles from Phoenix,
If the Japanese are released from these camps they will naturally
drift into the Salt River Valley area, and to let 30,000 Japanese into
this Valley would play havoc with the economic life of this valley.
As the Government assumed the responsibility of moving these
people from their natural habitats on the Pacific coast, they should
also assume the responsibility of keeping them out of the Salt River
Valley.
The war industries in the Salt River Valley are just as important
as those on the Pacific coast. A large percentage of the copper pro-
duction of the United States is dependent upon power from the
Salt River Valley.
Goodyear has an airplane factory some 12 miles from Phoenix,
that is depending exclusively for all its power from the Central
Arizona Light & Power Co.
The large aluminum plant, costing some $30,000,000, and just
going into production 3 miles from Phoenix, is supplied with power
from the association and the Central Arizona Light & Power Co.
There is another plant known as the Ari Research Co., which makes
precision instruments for the Government, that is dependent for a
large amount of power from the plants of the Salt River Valley
Water Users' Association.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9175
111 addition to that wo have six lareo air fields there, with thousands
of sokUers who are being trained for the air service. All of these
air fi(^lds require large amounts of electricity.
All of the lettuce, cantaloupes, and carrots used in the United States
at certain seasons of the year come from the Salt River Valley. The
Salt River Valle\'- is the largest cattle-feeding area in the United
States of sunilar size. Some 300,000 sheep are fed in the valley
every wint(^r. The total value of farm crops grown in the Salt River
project is nearly $30,000,000 per year.
If the United States turns loose 30,000 Japanese in the Salt River
Valley, there is bound to be race riots that will make the zoot-suiter
riots which you had in Los Angeles look tame.
I have some maps which I would like to turn over to the committee
which show the locations of the various dams and power lines and
canals about which I have testified.
Mr. CosTELLO. We will be very glad to receive them, Mr. Orme.
Mr. Orme. If there are any questions you would like to ask, I will
be glad to answer them.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Orme, directing your attention to the Roosevelt
Reservoir, I believe you stated that reservoir is unguarded?
Mr. Orme. No; no.
Mr. Steedman. You did not state that?
Mr. Orme. No; I did not. It has guards. We have four guards
there. There is one man on all the time — just one man.
Mr. Steedman. Is that one man sufficient to guard that large dam?
Mr. Orme. No; it is not. We have four guards and they are on 8
hours with an extra guard, but that is not sufficient.
Mr. CosTELLO. And those are company guards?
Mr. Orme. Yes. •
Mr. Costello. The Army does not provide any guards or protec-
tion for any of the dams in that system?
Mr. Orme. Right after Pearl Harbor for a few months they did.
Mr. Costello. But you placed your guards there prior to Pearl
Harbor?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir; but they kept their guards right along with
ours.
These dams from the first one to the last one cover about 70 miles
of territory. And at Roosevelt we have four guards and at Mesa
we have two and a guard on at night punches the clock and the guard
on in the daytime just stays there.
Mr. Costello. Are the dams in country that is accessible to any-
one who would want to go to them?
Mr. Okme. All but one. Roosevelt is very accessible. It is one
of the main highways of central Arizona that goes over the top of
Roosevelt Dam.
About the only rule we make there is that cars should keep going;
that is, you shall not stop for a quarter of a mile on each side.
We did have a scheme of stopping them and making them roll up
their windows but we found out that was slow and they would pile
up in the road, and a lot of them are our own people, so we just shove
them right on through.
The guards are entirely insufficient but if we increased the guard we
would have to increase them to hundreds. Why, the Army put a
detachment of 30 men to guard the Roosevelt Dam alone.
9176 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Eberharter. Just the one dam?
Mr. Orme. Just the one dam; and they also had 30 at our steam
plant.
Mr. CosTELLO. With the 30 men at Roosevelt Dam, that only pro-
vided four or five guards on duty at any one time?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. And the others would be off duty at a camp located
nearby?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact those four guards have the
duty and responsibility of guarding 150 miles of shore line in connec-
tion with the reservoir; is that not true?
Mr. Orme. Yes. But we don't even attempt to do that.
Mr. Steedman. But there are 150 miles of shore line?
Mr. Orme. Yes; there are 150 miles of shore line with roads on
each side that we don't attempt to guard.
Mr. Steedman. Your testimony indicates that you think the
chances of sabotage by these released Japs at Roosevelt Dam is
pretty serious?
Mr. Orme. I do.
Mr. Steedman. Have any of the Japanese from the relocation
centers centered m the Salt River Valley irrigation district?
Mr. Orme. You mean lately?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Orme. My information is they have. I couldn't give you
specific instances — well, I know they have ; yes.
Mr. Steedman. And they are attempting to secure land there?
Mr. Orme. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat is the attitude of the water users of the Salt
River Valley irrigation district toward the Japanese moving into that
area?
Mr. Orme. Absolutely against it almost 100 percent. I suppose
there is always in a community some people who would like to make
some money out of anything, but they are against them and were
against them before even there was a war. They have always been
against them commg into the comnumity and restrictive laws have
been passed.
They just passed one restrictive law in the last legislature but I
will let Mr. Jennings tell you about that. It is against the law for a
Jap to own or lease agricultural land there.
I don't think it says, "Japs" but it describes them.
Mr. CosTELLO. But that limitation, Mr. Orme, is not really effec-
tive, is it?
Mr. Orme. No; it is not entirely effective.
Mr. CosTELLO. Tliat has been our experience.
Mr. Orme. Yes. They do business through dummies and one thing
and another. An alien can't hold land but a child 10 years old does.
Mr. CosTELLO. An American-born Japanese can hold title to that
land?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. And the title could be put in the name of a 6-month-
old baby if they wished to do so?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. Or else they can handle it through a dummy cor-
poration which is not too difficult to arrange?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9177
Mr. Orme. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. I have no fiirtluM- questions, Mr. Ormo.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Ebcrhartor?
Mr. Eberharter. I have no qiiostions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Orme. There is one instance that happened that I haven't
here m my paper.
There was a very reputable nurse there who wrote me a lett(>r about
her nursing: a quite wealthy Japanese and he was iucolicrent and was
talking ni his fever and in that fever he babbled about blowing up the
Roosevelt Dam and I turned that matter over to the F. B. I. and they
made some investigation but never made a re[)ort back to me, but
that .Japanese was removed and 1 supposed interned in some intern-
ment camp.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you Imve the name of the Japanese that the nurse
listened to and whom you say the F. B. I. removed?
Mr. Orme. No, I haven't but I can get it for you.
Mr. CosTELLO. I wonder, Mr. Orme, if j^ou wdl obtam that name
and supply it to Mr. Steedman?
Mr. Orme. Ye§, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Is the Salt River Valley in the evacuated area at the
present time?
Mr. Orme. The restrictions cover a part of the Salt River Valley.
It was first all in the restricted area but we had an immense cotton
crop down there of pima cotton that the Government was very anx-
ious to get for war purposes and that restriction was lifted with the
idea that these Japs, if they were paid well, would pick the cotton.
That is, there were seven or eight thousand of them and there might
be a thousand that would go out and pick cotton in this restricted area.
As I miderstand the restriction was raised to allow them to do that,
but only a couple of hundred went out and they were absolutely a
failure. They might have been supermen in fishing and fighting but
as cotton pickers they were no good. Thej'- were bums.
They had 500 soldiers guarding them but they were only out a few
weeks.
Mr. MuNDT. Was there — was that near Glendale?
Mr. Orme. In Glendale and Panel Cdunty. Most of them were
used in Panel County down closer to this settlement at Rivers.
Mr. MuNDT. But it didn't work out in either place?
Mr. Orme. No; it didn't work out. There was a few of the Jap-
anese girls who did pretty well but they were all called off.
Mr. Costello. Do you attribute that failure on the part of the
Japs to pick cotton due to the fact ihcy were just not interested?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. And do you feel they were not interested because
they felt they were promoting the war effort?
Mr. Orme. I don't know. They didn't seem to be interested.
They could make from $3 to $5 a day picking cotton if they would
pick it, but they were not interested.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Orme, are you familiar with the relocation
center known as the Gila River Relocation Center?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir; I am familiar with the land.
Mr. Steedman. You are familiar' with the Rivers Relocation
Center?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir.
9178 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. And they have about 7,000 acres of land at the
Rivers Relocation Center; isn't that correct?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir; they have 7,000 acres of good land and good
water supply.
Mr. Steedman. Is that land being farmed?
Mr. Orme. Why, they are farming it some but not a great deaL
Just to what extent I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. Would it be possible to grow sufficient vegetables
on that land to supply the camp if the land was farmed properly?
Mr. Orme. Oh, yes, they would be able, if they farmed it properly,,
to grow 5 or 10 times as much as they would use.
Mr. ■Costello. Was that land farmed before the camp was placed
there?
Mr. Orme. It had been placed in a very high state of cultivation
by the Indian Service of the United States Government for the
Indians.
Mr. Costello. Wliat crops did they grow?
Mr. Orme. It was all in alfalfa then.
Mr. Costello. And alfalfa requires a large amoifnt of water, does
it not?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. Is that water supplied by the Gila River?
Mr. Orme. Yes, sir; it comes from the San Carlos Dam. They
have made attempts to raise some cabbage and some stuff like that.
Mr. Costello. Any further questions?
Mr. Steedman. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Costello. Thank you very much, Mr. Orme, for takmg the
time to come here from Phoenix to testify.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Arthur J. Barnes, who is a
member of the State Legislature of Arizona, has just joined the delega-
tion and will testify later.
Our next witness will be Mr. Harold R. Scoville, who is county
attorney of Maricopa County, the county in which Phoenix is situated.
Mr. Costello. Will you please stand and be sworn?
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD R. SCOVILLE, COUNTY ATTORNEY,
MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Costello. Will you state your name to the reporter?
Mr. Scoville. Harold R. Scoville.
As Mr. Steedman has stated, I am the county attorney of Maricopa
County which comprises the area of Phoenix.
I should first like to mention the fact that our population there is
approximately, in Maricopa County, about 200,000 persons.
We have had prior to the war a number of Japanese families living
there, as Air. Orme has mentioned.
There were troubles in the past many years before the present war,,
which pretty well straightened the situation out.
We are principally concerned with the method or the activity at
the present time, of the War Relocation Authority in relocating Japs
in the Salt River Valley.
Those relocated there have come to my attention particularly as I
have had so.me investigations under way for several weeks, particularly
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9179
in connection with the enforcement of a new law there which requires
advertising of notice of intention to do business with persons whose
movements are restricted under certain coTulitions, and wliich alsO'
comprise certain exceptions.
In that connection we have found that a large number — several
hundred Japanese have been released to the Salt Kiver Valle3^ For
example, a recent clieck just made a few days ago, mdicated that in
the last 2 or 3 montlis, some 75 Japanese were released from Poston —
approximately that number, and included among those Japs were
Japs who came from California. And also there have been Japs re-
leased to the Salt Kiver Valley from the camp at Dennison, Ark. I
believe that is the Jerome Relocation Center.
Wr have run onto families who were interned there and who up to
this time had never residt^d in Arizona.
In connection with the investigation in the field, we find that the
Japs, as they express themselves to us, and as they have expressed
themselves to farmers with whom they have sought places, them and
their families, many, man}^ of whom were heretofore in California, a.
desire to take up residence in tlu' Salt lliver Valley because of the
fact it is a vegetable-producing area.
Tluy had a small hold in there before as has been mentioned by
Mr. Orme, with their own community center, their own schools, and
their own churches.
A^Ir. CosTELLO. How large a population of Japanese was that?
Mr. ScoviLLE. It had dwindled down to a comparatively small
number. I don't believe we had more than, and I am just estimating
now, more than 100 all together. Perhaps that is even too large.
Now, the metliod that appears to us from our investigation to be
employed is to release the Japanese from Poston to people who desire
to place them on land, either as employees or under some arrangement
to us which is notr clear, and also to release them to other Japanese.
We find, for example, in parts of the valley that there are Japanese
who have land leased and have had it leased for many years holding it
in the name of either dummy corporations or in the name of their
children who are citizens, and to whom have been released as high as
30 or 35 Japs to one single other Japanese.
As I say, the public generally in the valley, and the people genrrnlly,
are very, very seriously concerned with the activities of tl e Wcr Re-
location Authority in resettling or relocating the Japanese in the talt
River Valley.
The feeling is ]-ather intense at times. Being interested in law en-
forcement, the situation is such at this moment that both the sheriff
and myself have no doubt that in the event it should be tomorrow
morning re])orte{l that a Japanese committed some overt a?t, either
by way of sabotage or by way of some criminal assault on a white
w'oman, let us say, when the people of Phoenix will take their rifles
and there will follow numerous killings.
That is the feeling at the moment. And it has been spoken of, in
returning the Japanese to California, that that would be apt to incite
riot and difliculty.
- We are veiy much nearer to that by reason of the fact of the steady
influx of the Japanese into th(> valley.
That IS the problem from tlie viewpoint of a law-enforcement offi-
cer and the problem has been stated by Mr. Orme from the standpoint
9180 UN-AIVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
of the excellent opportunities that are there offered to anyone inter-
ested in committing^ any sahotage with its attending disaster.
Mr. CosTELLO. You feel the retention of the Japanese in the relo-
cation centers is a matter for their own safety as much as anything
else?
Mr. ScoviLLB. It is a matter for their own safety and for the matter
of respect for law and order in general on the part of the rest of the
population which a person ni my job attempts to hold on as high a
plane as we possibly can.
I have talked to a considerable number of Japanese in this manner.
They come to me individually and in delegations. I have had three
different delegations to call upon me in connection with my activities
in enforcing the new law which requires advertisement of intention to
do business with persons whose movements are restricted.
Their gen(>ral attitude is, that is, on the part of those who are citi-
zens and some who are not — and most of those who make it a point
to call upon the law authorities, of course, are the younger Japanese.
Their general attitude is that they have rights and they intend to
assert them. They are looking for suggestions constantly and make
inquiry as to methods of evasion of our present law in order that they
may continue to farm and operate in the fashion they have.
Mr. CosTELLO. Can alien Japanese lease land in Arizona?
Mr. ScoviLLE. An alien Japanese cannot lease land in our State.
Mr. CosTELLO. jTliey cannot acquire title to land and cannot
lease land?
Mr. ScoviLLE. Cannot lease it, but leases as mentioned before,
are ordinarily executed in the name of minor children for whom a
guardian has been appointed.
Mr. CosTELLO. Could the guardian be an alien Japanese?
Mr. ScoviLLE. No; no, he could not. They usually get someone
else.
Mr. CosTELLO. A guardian has to be a citizen of the United States?
Mr. ScoviLLE. Yes, sir.
I would like to digress for just a moment, gentlemen, m connection
with the work which has been done by our office.
Just yesterday I came across a matter in which I thought you
might be very interested, in connection with the sale of rationed
commodities to the Japanese.
In the investigation in that connection, it has been disclosed that
some 15,000 pounds of candy was sold to the Poston and Rivers
camps. I have here, and- 1 am glad to supply for your records, copies
of the original invoices. I do not have the original records here but
they are available to me in Phoenix.
Those invoices will disclose that the Harold Brokerage Supply Co.
by name, which is located at 741 East Ninth Street, Los Angeles,
Calif., whose dealings I am informed are carried on by a man who
heads that organization by the name of N. H. Marshall.
The four invoices which I have show for example, "April 30, 3,000
pounds"
Mr. CosTELLO. What year?
Mr. ScoviLLE. 1943 — were sold to the Poston Community Enter-
prises, which is the cooperative association operated within the camp
and by and with the consent and approval of the War Relocation
Authority. That is 3,000 pounds of hard candy and that was sold
to Poston, as I mentioned before.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9181
It is certified as being correct on the original voucher by a Japanese
by the name of Seichi Honda, accountant, and the . buyer is Bob
Urgama.
There is also shown on that invoice 1,500 dozen grade A eggs at a
price of $690 and the 3,000 pounds of candy at a price of $1,500.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Scoville, is candy rationed?
Mr. Scoville. I do not mention candy as a rationed food, but only
as sugar. We all know that the candy producers are rationed in their
sugar, and the public generally find it very difficult to secure candy.
At least in our locality I know that is true, and I believe it is generally
true. The supply is very limited.
Then there is, on April 12, 1943, 4,000 pounds of candy to the
Poston Community Enterprises.
'Mr. Steedman. And what was the price of that candy?
Mr. Scoville. Fiftv cents a pound.
Ui\ Steedman. Then that sale was $2,000?
Mr. Scoville. That is right. And also on the 3d of April, 4,000
pounds of candy, at 50 cenls a pound, $2,000. That was in 1943.
That went to the Poston Community Enterprises. I understand a
portion of that was also delivered to the Rivers camp and in that
connection it has been brought to our attention — just a moment, let
me go back to that.
I have another copy of another invoice by the same organization
for the sale of an additional 4,000 pounds of candy, at 50 cents a
pound, $2,000, to the Gila River Commimity Enterprise, making a
total amount of 15,000 pounds.
I l)elieve that is aU in the month of April.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chaiirman, I would like to introduce these in-
voices into the record.
Mr. Costello. They may be introduced at this point.
(The invoices referred to were marked "Scoville Exhibit No. 1,"
and made a part of the record.)
Mr. Eberharter. Do you certify they are correct copies of the
original invoices?
Mr. Scoville. I have the originals of which these are true copies;
yes.
Mr. Mundt. What was the total pounds purchased?
Mr. Steedman. Fifteen thousand pounds.
Mr. Scoville. Within a period of a few weeks.
Mr. Mendt. That is about 1 pound per Japanese inhabitant at the
camps?
Mr. Scoville. There were two camps involved.
I just happened to come across that and thought it might be of some
interest to you.
Now, I don't beheve either myself or the sheriff can emphasize too
much the fact that a very veiy serious situation does exist as the result
of the relocation of so many of the Japanese in the Salt River Valley.
Mr. Mundt. About ho\v many have been relocated there all to-
gether?
Mr. Scoville. Well, I attempted to ascertain how many had been
released from the Poston camp, for example, and all I was able to get
was the dates of release on those whom we had discovered and had
their names.
And in connection with that investigation, I imagine that I have
here the names of well over 200. As I mentioned all those that I have
62626— 43— vol. 1£
9182 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
been able to tic down to any particular time is some, approximately,.
75 who were released in the last 2 or 3 months.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you inquire of either the Rivers or Poston
camps for the names of persons who had been released to the Salt
River Valley?
Mr. ScoviLLE. We were able to give them a list of those we had
and they furnished us with the dates of release as near as they could
find them.
Mr. Eberharter. A list of those that you had?
Mr. ScoviLLE. Of those we had; yes.
Mr. Eberharter. But that was not a complete list?
Mr. ScoviLLE. No; that was not a complete list.
Mr. Eberharter. Only those to whom your attention had been
called?
Mr. ScoviLLE. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. But they did not give you a list of the names of
those that they had released, although those names should be available
to the camp authorities?
Mr. ScoviLLE. That is right. And my own efforts to determine if
there was such a list were futile in Phoenix. Neither the F. B. I.
nor the Immigration Service had such lists available of Japanese
released there.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you call on the project head for such a list?
Mr. ScoviLLE. A personal call was made in that connection by
Mr. Barnes and also by an investigator from my office and they were
unable to secure it.
Air. Wade Head at that time was away from the camp and they
talked to an assistant director there.
Mr. CosTELLO. About what time was that request made to Mr.
Head?
Mr. ScoviLLE. That was approximately 10 days ago or a week
ago — a week ago today. W"e desired that list in our attempt to keep
up with the situation.
Mr. MuNDT. Did the assistant director to whom Mr. Barnes
spoke, say he would prepare a list and send it to you after Mr. Head
returned?
Mr. ScoviLLE. I was advised that he did not — I was advised by
the investigator who went there that he did not.
Mr. Steedman. Have you visited Poston center yourself?
Mr. ScoviLLE. No; I have not visited it myself. I sent my in-
vestigator there, Air. Phillips who went with Mr. Barnes, who will
testify later, and it is Mr. Phillips' assertion to me as a positive fact
that they found no guards about the gate of the camp whatsoever.
They drove into the camp and searched at some length in order to
determine where the office was located and where they might find
Air. Head, for whom they were looking, which was rather a surprise
to them.
I had armed them with credentials in order that they might effect
an entrance to the Poston camp.
I believe the sherift" who will speak after I do, who has had some
experience and business at the camp, w;ill tell you more about that.
Our business there has been because we feel there is a thi-eat to our
industries and military objectives in the Salt River Valley.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9183
Mr. CosTELLO. You do not feel it would require any large number
of people to effect sabotage on the dams or other important installa-
tions around Phoenix?
Mr. ScoviLLE. It would take only one or two persons. As a matter
of fact I have spent practically all my life in the valley and Maricopa
County and that portion of the State, as Mr. Orme pointed out the
situation with regard to the dams, with the vast amount of shore line
of the Koosevelt Dam, the fact that, although it appears to be in an
inaccessible part of the country, a person who takes the highway, the
old Apache trail to Roosevelt Dam — there are other roads, bush
highways where it would be very eas}^ to approach the dam from above
it and put a raft into the river or into the reservoir,- and as Mr. Orme^
has pointed out, cause a large explosion which would wreck that dam
and would carry the others with it, and would entirely submerge
the valley.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, the release of one or two Japanese
who have subversive intentions or any desire to commit sabotage,
would undoubtedly be able to carry that out with a great deal of ease?
Mr. ScoviLLE. Under present circumstances they certainly could.
Mr. CosTELLO. And it wouldn't require a large number of them?
It would only mean the releasing of one or two disloyal Japanese among
other evacuees released? Just one or two would be sufficient to carcy
out a program of that character?
Mr. ScoviLLE. That is correct; it would not be difficult.
Mr. Steedman. Would the people of Arizona object to the relocation
centers if they were properly managed, would they?
Mr. ScoviLLE. Well, let me say this: That we have also objected to
their being situated there, in view of the fact that we believe the danger
to the military is just as great there as it is in southern California.
There has always been an objection to the location of the centers
there.
But the greatest concern of the people of Maricopa County, is the
relocation of the 30,000 Japanese, the greater portion of which appear
settling in our valley and in our irrigated areas.
Mr. Steedman. If there was a strict administration of these camps
and the Japanese in them were confined to the camps, and not allowed
to roam about throughout that area, would the people be willing for
the camps to remain there for the duration?
Mr, ScoviLLE. Well, we feel if they were properly guarded and
maintained strictly, that our problem, our worry to some extent would
certainly be decreased.
Mr. Steedman. I have no further questions, Air. Chairman.
Mr. ScoviLLE. There is one other matter, and I am speaking only
on hearsay now, but I have every reason to believe it is true, and that
is in connection with further investigations the committee might be
interested in.
There are or is a great deal of mineral water which I am advised
is being sold to camps at something like $1 a bottle which is being
bought by the Government.
We get along pretty well with the water up there, without importing
any California special mineral water. That has caused a great deal
of comment.
Mr. Costello. That is the normal drinking water that is available
to the camps is perfectly satisfactory for drinking purposes?
9184 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. ScoviLLE, I am sure that is true insofar as the Rivers camp is
concerned. It is within close proximity to us.
Mr. Steedman. Does Sheriff Jordan have the detailed facts with
reference to that mineral water?
Mr. ScoviLLE. I believe he has more information than I have.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you very much, Mr. Scoville, for having
been present and giving us j^our testimony.
"VVe will take a short recess.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order.
Will you call your next witness?
^ Mr. Steedman: The next witness is Sheriff Jordan of Maricopa
County.
Mr. CosTELLO. "Will you please stand and be sworn?
TESTIMONY OF ION JORDAN, SHERIFF OF MARICOPA COUNTY,
ARIZONA
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your full name to the reporter?
Mr. Jordan. Lon Jordan. I am sheriff of Maricopa County and
I have been connected with that office most of the time since 1930.
I have a little statement that I prepared which I would like to read.
Mr. Scoville has told you — talked about just everything that we
had in mind, but I would like to read the statement which I have
prepared.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may do so.
Mr. Jordan. There is an extremely hostile attitude toward the
Japs in and around Phoenix, the capitol city of the State. This is
perhaps true of other sections of the State, but Maricopa County of
which Phoenix is the county seat, is a rich agricultural area and many
of the Japs who have been released from relocation centers have
settled in this area.
I am fearful that if Japs are released and attempt to settle in and
around Phoenix, there will be rioting and bloodshed. My office is
being called 30 or 40 times a day by people who are demanding that
I do something about getting these Japs out. They make no bones
about saying that if the law enforcement officers cannot handle the
job, citizens will take it into their own hands.
Several years before the war, when there was no particiilar reason
for hostility toward the Japs, a good many of the Jap people were
injured and an attempt made by the farmers in and around Phoenix
to run them out of the State. Every time the newspapers carry a
story of some atrocity committed by Japs against American soldiers;
the telephones at my office are kept hot, demanding that we get "these
damn Japs out of the country."
It is my opinion that all of these camps should be placed under the
direct control of the Army or the Marines.
Mr. Steedman. From a law-enforcement officer's standpoint, you
are opposed to the release of the Japanese from the relocation centers?
Mr. Jordan. Yes, sir; very much so. There is not a day we don't
get call after call, and as I say, especially every time some of the citi-
zens see a new Japanese face aroimd the valley. They are right on
us right now to see what we can do about it and why we don't do
something.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9185
Mr. Steedman. Do Japanese from the relocation center at Poston
visit Phoenix for the purpose of shopping and go to theaters?
Mr. Jordan. No; we don't have — do you mean do we have them
coming to our office?
Mr. Steedman. No. Do Japanese from the relocation centei*s visit
Phoenix?
Mr. Jordan. Well, I haven't seen them there myself, but I have
had several complaints that they come there and stay all night and
put up at the hotels in Phoenix. Of course, I never checked the hotels
to see if they do.
Mr. Steedman. Are the Japanese who visit Phoenix escorted by
Caucasians?
Mr. Jordan. Well, I haven't heard of any that were.
Mr. Steedman. You haven't investigated such complaints?
Mr. Jordan. No; I haven't because there are just so many of them
a fellow couldn't do it. We are short-handed and that is all we would
be doing, investigating Japs, if we investigated every call we get.
Mr. Steedman. With your present force of men you do not feel you
could maintain law and ordor in Maricopa County if Japanese are
continued to be released to settle there?
Mr. Jordan. No; with four times the size force I couldn't maintain
law and order because the people are s^ery unhappj^ about it.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Scoville stated you had some information
regarding the sale of mineral water to the Japanese in the relocation
centers; is that correct?
Mr. Jordan. Well, now, my information is not in too good shape.
I have a deputy or did have at one time, who had a water business
there in PhoenLx and at the time the tire rationing program began he
was afraid that he couldn't get tires for his trucks so he sold his
business out.
Mr. Steedman. What is the name of that deputy?
Mr. Jordan. Cal Boies. A short time after he sold his business
he came — in fact I kind of insisted on his selling it because I thought
he would be in trouble over the rubber situation and after a short
time he came m and was kind of raizzing me because I had caused him
to lose a good business.
I asked him what the trouble was and he said that the man he sold
out to had gotten a contract with some fellow in Los Angeles to
deliver — I have forgotten the amount, but it seems like 500 bottles of
■water a week or maybe more than that, to Poston, and the best I
remember is this water was costing him about 25 cents in Phoenix
and something less than 50 cents a bottle delivered over there, and
the man that was selling it was getting a dollar a bottle for it.
Now, I could check up on that very easily when I go back and give
you the correct information.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please do that and write us a letter giving
us the facts?
Mr. Jordan. I sure will.
Mr. Steedman. Have you visited the Poston center yourself?
Mr. Jordan. Yes, sir; I was ui Poston on— I don't recall just how
long ago — I was over there on some busmess and I just thought while
I was there I would go down and take a look at the camp.
Another boy and m3^self got in the car and drove around and drove
into the camp and all over the camp.
9186 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Were you stopped by any guards when you drove
into the camp?
. Mr. Jordan. No, sir. We were not stopped at any time. Drove
all around through the camp and never were stopped. Japs were
walkmg on both sides of the street and we were looking at the recrea-
tion hall and the stores and nobody ever stopped us.
Mr. Steedman. Did the automobile in which you were riding have
any particular identification marks to indicate you were the sheriff?
Mr. Jordan. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Or to indicate that you were a law enforcement
officer?
Mr. Jordan. No, sir; it didn't have anything.
Mr. Steedman. Were there no guards at the gate?
Mr. Jordan. I didn't see any guards. We just drove in there and
nobody said anything to us.
Mr. Steedman' Could people drive in or walk in the same as you
did?
Mr. Jordan. Oh, yes; there is a big wide gate — a gate about 15
feet wide.
Mr. MuNDT. Were you stopped when you went out of the center?
Mr. Jordan. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you enter the camp through the main approach?
Mr. Jordan. Well, 1 "will tell you it was the west side of the carnp.
I never thought about ever having to remember or discuss it again,
but we just drove around the camp on the outside and we came in
from the west side but for what reason I don't remember.
Mr. CosTELLO. When you approached the camp from the road, you
made a circle around the camp?
Mr. Jordan. Yes, sir. Our business was on the side next to Parker
and I was over there after a man, I rccah now, and afterward we just
drove clear around the camp and on the west side there was a gate
open and we saw a lot of Japs in there and drove in to see what it
looked like.
Mr. Mundt. Do you have the name of the man in Phoenix who
purchased the water business from your deputy?
Mr. Jordan. I don't have it with me; no.
Mr. CosTELLO. You might also provide the name of the party in
Los Angeles who sold the water to the man in Phoenix at the same
time you secure the name of the firm in Phoenix.
Mr. Jordan. All right.
I believe I heard you folks say you were going to Poston for an in-
vestigation. If you do and if you will contact a boy by the name of
Peterson — Dewey Peterson, who is a drag-line operator there — he
might give you some information as to how they behave inside of the
camp and what help he gets out of the Japanese that are supposed to
help him.
Mr. Steedman, Is it your definite opinion that the people of
Maricopa County are opposed to the Japanese settling there?
Mr. Jordan. Very much so.
Mr. Steedman. I have no further questions.
Mr. Eberharter. Is all of Maricopa County in the restricted
zone or is it unrestricted insofar as Japanese traveling is concerned?
Mr. Jordan. Weh, I think part of it is restricted and part of it
isn't.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9187
Mr. Eberharter. Do you know where the line runs?
Mr. Jordan. It just runs a short way north of Phoenix.
Mr. ScoviLLE. Perhaps I can help on that, if I may interrupt?
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Scoville.
Mr. Scoville. The zone 1 line is moved clear down south of Pima
County line. That is some 100 miles below Rivers, approximately —
maybe not quite that far, 60 or 70 miles, but our entire area is unre-
stricted except for certain designated areas around airfields, as. I
understand it.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, Maricopa County is in zone 2?
Mr. Scoville. That I can't tell you. I have the proclamation
but I didn't bring it with me. The Japanese move freely and we
see them all the time.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Japanese are free to move anywhere around
the county?
Mr. Jordan. They are all over, everywhere— everywhere they see
fit to go.
Mr. CosTELLO. You are not in zone 1?
Mr. Scoville. Absolutely not.
Mr. CosTELLO. And zone 1 is the area in which the Japanese have
been excluded entirely?
Mr. Scoville. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is all. We thank you very much for appearing
here, Mr. Sheriff.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, the next witness is Mr. Barnes.
TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR J. BARNES, MEMBER OF THE ARIZONA
STATE LEGISLATURE
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
!*ilr. CosTELLO. Will you please state your name for the record?
Mr. Barnes. Arthur J. Barnes.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Barnes, are you a member of the Arizona State
Legislature?
Mr. Barnes. I am.
Mr. Steedman. And from what' county?
Mr. Barnes. Maricopa County.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Barnes, did you make an investigation of the
Poston relocation center near Parker, Ariz.?
Mr. Barnes. I was at the relocation center last Monday, a week
ago today, in company with an investigator from the county attor-
ney's office.
For the past 2 months I have been devoting a good deal of my time
to this Japanese question in our valley.
Mr. Steedman. While at the Poston center, did you interview Mr.
Head?
Mr. Barnes. Mr. Head was not there at the time but Mr. Nelson
was in charge when we arrived there.
Mr. Steedman. Did you ask Mr. Nelson for statistics regarding the
number of Japanese that had been released to settle in the Salt River
Valley and in and around Pheonix?
Mr. Barnes. I asked Mr. Nelson if he could give us a list of all
those who had been released to Maricopa County and he said, "No,"
but that if we would furnish him a list of those that we were interested
in he would have them looked up for us.
9188 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Did you gather from that conversation that they
didn't know what Japanese had been released to that vicinity?
Mr. Barnes. That is the distinct impression that I received, that
they didn't know and that it would have been difficult to find out
from their records.
Mr. Steedman. But he did check your list?
Mr. Barnes. He did check my list and on my list there were a
number that he couldn't even find on his records, although I had
their names and their signatures that they had come from Boston.
Mr. Steedman. And did you advise him of that fact?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And did he correct his records accordingly?
Mr. Barnes. Well, I presume that he did. We couldn't get them
while we were there. We had to leave our list and come back to
Phoenix and it was mailed to us 2 or 3 days later.
Mr. Steedman. How much time did you spend at Boston?
Mr. Barnes. Oh, in the camp proper I presume we were there an
hour.
Mr. Steedman. Who were you with?
Mr. Barnes. Mr. Jack Phillips, an investigator for the county at-
torney's office.
Mr. Steedman. Did you have any difficulty in gaining access to
the camp proper?
Mr. Barnes. No; no difficulty at all. In fact, after we had finally
found the office, Mr. Head's office, and had transacted our business,
I asked Mr. Nelson if there was any place around there that we might
butt into that wasn't proper for us to be in and he said, "Well, you
have a pass, haven't you?" and I said, "No, we have no pass."
"Well," he said, "I guess maybe we had better give you one," so
he called a girl and had a pass made out for us to get out of the place,
but we had no trouble. We would not have needed the pass to get
out or in.
Mr. Steedman. Was your car searched when you entered the center?
Mr. Barnes. No.
Mr. Steedman. And when you left was your car searched?
Mr. Barnes. No.
Mr. Steedman. Did your car have an identification indicating it
was a State-owned automobile or an official car?
Mr. Barnes. No; I didn't have any_ identification on the automo-
bile at all.
Mr. Steedman. No identification?
Mr. Barnes. Only the license plates.
Mr. Steedman. Your car simply had Arizona State license plates
on it?
Mr. Barnes. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. License plates indicating a private car and not an
official car?
Mr. Barnes. For a private car; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any additional infoiination regarding
your visit to the Boston center that you would like to give to the
committee?
Mr. Barnes. Yes. I went there with Mr. Phillips who was gather-
ing some information for the county attorney's office, but my partic-
ular interest in the visit was to find out why out of something over
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9189
200 people, whom I had personally interviewed from relocation
centers, that with the exception of less than a dozen, they were all
of them former residents of California and not the Japanese that had
been taken out of Maricopa County.
I asked Mr. Nelson three different times why it was they were
sending the California Japanese in to us instead of Japanese that had
been taken away from us at the time of the evacuation.
He evaded the question every time. The nearest thing to an answer
he gave was that he sent those out who made application to go out
and he presumed, maybe, the Arizona Japs hadn't made an application.
If I may be permitted to make an observation based upon my
work, I am satisfied that there is a direct conspiracy to get all of the
Japs from the Western States centered in Arizona, and that they be
settled there before the time comes to break up these camps and then
say to us: "Well, Arizona, you have got these Japs and you have
got to take care of them."
In other words it appears to me to be a direct conspiracy to imload
the Japs on our area.
Mr. Steedman. And are the Arizona people opposed to that?
Mr. Barnes. The people are bitterly opposed to it. In fact I am
saying without mental reservation that the situation at the present
time is so acute that should some Japanese commit an overt act or
some hair-brained individual allege that they had committed an
overt act, that it would lead to very serious implications in our
valley at the present time, even to the point of bloodshed.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any statistics on the number of
Japanese who have been relocated in the State of Arizona from the
relocation centers?
Mr. Barnes. I have a list of over 200 that have returned to our
valley from various relocation camps. I am satisfied, though, that
I have not anywhere near the number of those that have returned
and it was for that reason that we went to Boston, to see if we could
get the total list of those that had been sent there.
Mr. Steedman. And you are attempting to compile statistics now
on the exact number that have been released and are in the State of
Arizona?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
!Nlr. Steedman. As soon as you have finished that compilation, will
you furnish the committee with a, copy of it?
Mr. Barnes. I would be glad to. However, you realize this, that
they are scattered all over the valley out there and there are large
numbers, I dare say, that are working as domestics in homes in the
city that we will never locate, but we are riding our streetcars and
busses and see them getting on the busses from residential areas and
we have reason to believe that there are a large number of domestics
working in homes that we never will be able to locate.
Mr. Steedman. You are speaking of Japanese in Phoenix now?
Mr. Barnes. In Phoenix, yes.
Mr. Steedman. And Phoenix is a large Air Corps area; is it not?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir; it is becoming one of the important air
centers of the Nation today.
Mr. Steedman. Does anyone know in whose homes these domestics
are working?
9190 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Barnes. No one knows as far as we are able to learn. We
have searched every available place where we thought the names
should be available and no one knows where they are.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated that there was a conspiracy?
Mr. Barnes. In my mind, yes.
Mr. Steedman. To settle the Japanese in Arizona?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know the persons behind the conspiracy?
Mr. Barnes. I do not but I am satisfied that there is a master brain
behind it some place and that there is some reason for it.
Mr. Steedman. Have you made an investigation to determine whO'
the persons are behind the conspiracy?
Mr. Barnes. I have carefully tried to find out but I have been un-
able to find out.
Mr, CosTELLO. How many Japanese were removed from Arizona
and put into relocation centers?
Mr. Barnes. That I could not answer. I have seen the figure on
it but I wouldn't dare state the figure at this time.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were the Japanese removed from all of Arizona in
the beginning?
Mr. Barnes. As far as I know but I am only conversant with Mari-
copa County. But the Japanese, most of them, were removed from
there. There were some few who had been born there and had con-
nections that were not removed at all.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, Maricopa County originally was
part of the restricted area and the Japanese were prohibited from going
into that area?
Mr. Barnes. It was, yes; but the ban was lifted some time ago.
Mr. CosTELLO. After the lifting of the ban, there was no attempt to
allow the Japanese who had been removed from that area to return to
the area?
Mr. Barnes. There is less than 1 dozen of those whom I have
checked, that were formerly from that area.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, it would appear if any one was to
be released to that area, particularly since the restrictions have been
lifted, that the original Japanese who had lived there before would be
the ones who would be entitled to return to their homes? •
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. But that has not been done?
Mr. Barnes. That has not been done; no.
Mr. CosTELLO. l^ou don't know who might be exerting this pressure
to release the California Japanese into Ai-izona for settlement there?
Mr. Barnes. I don't know. I might guess but it would be purely
a guess.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have any indication of that pressure to
release them emanating from the camps themselves or from outside
sources?
Mr. Barnes. I woidd think it emanates from outside the camps
but as I say, I have no definite information on that.
Mr. CosTELLO. You don't think it is the Japanese in the camps
who are themselves trying to obtain permission to be released and
locate in Arizona?
Mr. Barnes. Well, I think they are making the effort but I rather
think there is some motivating power behind them that has them to
make the effort.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9191
Mr. CosTELLO. You feel they are being induced to do that?
Mr. Barnes. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you beheve the pressure would emanate from
California or fi'om the War Relocation Authority in Washington?
Mr. Barnes. Well, I don't believe it emanates from the W. R. A.
office in Washington.
Mr. Steedman. You said you might speculate on the persons
behind the conspiracy to release the Japanese. Would you care to
do that?
Mr. Barnes. I would speculate that it is a military motive ema-
nating froin Japan itself.
Air. Steedman. To release the Japanese?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir; to settle them in our area which is a strategic
area.
Mr. Steedman. Directing your attention again to the visit you
made to Parker, did you see any military police on the highway as you
drove into Parker?
Mr. Barnes. No, sir. •
Mr. Steedman. Did you see any military police at Boston?
Mr. Barnes. The only thing I saw m the nature of military police,
was just as we got inside of the camp, we saw a car marked^M. P."
that was full of Japs. There were no white men in it at all. They
were Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Was it an Army automobile?
Mr. Barnes. It was an Army type automobUe; yes,
Mr. Steedman. Driven by Japanese?
Mr. Barnes. Driven by Japanese; yes.
Mr. Steedman. And full of Japs?
Mr. Barnes. Full of Japs; yes.
Air. Steedman. The back seat and the front seat?
Mr. Barnes. Back and front seats; yes.
Mr. Steedman. And no white men in the car at all?
Mr. Barnes. No.
Mr. Steedman. Were any military police on guard at the gate
when you drove in?
Mr. Barnes. There were two boys about a mile and a half from the
camp at a little station out there that, I presume were in charge of the
station. We pulled up and asked how we coidd find Mr. Head's
office and they said they didn't think Mr. Head was there. We
asked them if they could find out for us and they went to the telephone
and phoned and said that Mr. Head wasn't there, but that Mr. Nelson
was and he would see us.
Mr. Steedman. Did you identify j^^ourselves?
Mr. Barnes. We did tell them that we were- from the county at-
torney's office in Maricopa County.
Mr. Steedman. And they passed you in?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, they passed us there, but that was a mile and a
half up the road from the camp. From the camp there were roads
leading out everywhere from there on, at which there was nobody
at all.
Mr. Steedman. Nothmg further.
Mr. Mundt. Is anyone in your county or your city notified when
released Japanese are sent to your area?
Mr. Barnes. If there is, we have been unable to find it, and we
have tried very hard to find out.
9192 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, iViuNDT. Has the sheriff endeavored to determine that?
Mr. Barnes. I can't speak for the sheriff; but I have.
Air. MuNDT. Sheriff, have you been notified when the Japanese are
released to your county?
Mr. Jordan. I have not; no, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know of anybody in the area who has been
notified?
Mr. Jordan. No; I don't know of anybody.
Mr. MuNDT. Has the county attorney's office been notified?
Mr. ScoviLLE. It has not. As I mentioned a while ago we attempted
to secure such a list but were unable to do that.
Mr. MuNDT. As far as you tlu-ee gentlemen know there is no au-
thority anywhere in your area who has been notified by the Washing-
ton office or by the project office when Japanese are sent into your
territory?
Mr. ScoviLLE. Insofar as we are able to learn, no. I asked Mr.
Head that very question, I believe it was on Saturday on the tele-
phone— no; it was later in the week, about Thursday, and he advised
me that the only place that there might be any — we might be able to
find that would be to try the regional office in San Francisco. I be-
lieve he said they might be able to give us that information.
Mr. MuNDT. Is there an F. B. I. office in Phoenix?
Mr. Barnes. Oh, yes; a large staff.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you asked them whether they have been
notified when the Japanese are returned?
Mr. ScoviLLE. Yes; we have. We asked for a list and they said
they didn't have one available.
Mr. MuNDT. The F. B. I. didn't have a hst either?
Mr. Barnes. No.
Mr. MuNDT. It seems to me that we have had testimony here that
the F. B. I. was informed when the Japanese were sent into their
territory.
Mr. Barnes. We haven't been so informed and we tried to get a
list. They referred us to the immigration authorities and the immi-
gration authorities said they didn't have it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Wlien you talked to Mr. Head, he did not indicate
the list of names was turned over to the F. B. I., did he?
Mr. ScoviLLE. No. He indicated to me that aU that would be
handled by an office higher than his.
Mr. MuNDT. You said you interviewed about 200 Japanese per-
sonally?
Mr. Barnes. Yes, sir. .
Mr. MuNDT. Who had been released?
Mr. Bafnes. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. From your interviews with those Japanese, do they
seem to have the feeling that they are locating in Arizona permanently
or just there temporarily?
Mr. Barnes. That is their opinion, that as fast as they can they
want to get a hold of something and stay right there.
Mr. Mundt. Would you gather from your conversations with the
Japanese that some authority had led them to believe that they were
being released permanently in your community or is that just a hope
on their part?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9193
Mr. Barnes. I would not say that my information had led mc to
believe that some authority had led them to believe that, but that
they have a definite aim in that direction.
Mr. MuNDT. They have that aim or hope?
Mr. Barnes. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. But they have had no reason to feel that that is the
case?
Mr. Barnes. I could not say that they had been given that assur-
ance by any authority of this Nation.
Mr. MuNDT. They are not taking any steps which would lead you
to believe that they are acting with that in mind — that they are there
for keeps?
Mr. Barnes. Well, I wouldn't say that because I have on three
different instances, been asked if I knew where they could rent land
and, of course, told them that I didn't, so that in itself shows that they
are making an effort.
Mr. MuNDT. You haven't come across any instances where they
have been able to sign up any long-term leases or rental contracts?
Mr. Barnes. No; I have not; with the exception of one Jap who
holds a 5-year lease, but that was made before he was sent to the
relocation center and then he came back and took up his lease, which
has something over 2 years yet to run, I believe.
Mr. Mundt. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you known of any instances where Japanese
are actually buying land?
Mr. Barnes. Nothing with the exception of two or three notices
that have been put in the paper recently, of intention to sell to
Japanese.
Mr. CosTELLO. In your experience have you run across any in-
stances where Japanese have purchased land?
Mr. Barnes. In my interviews I have not; no, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Barnes, have you conferred with the United
States attorney at Phoenix, Mr. Flynn, with reference to the number
of alien Japanese who have been released to return to the Phoenix area?
Mr. Barnes. No; I haven't talked with him on it.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the other gen-
tlemen who testified today, if they have conferred with Mr. Flynn
regarding the number of alien Japanese who have been released in the
Phoenix area from the relocation centers.
Mr. ScoviiLE. I don't believe I have.
Mr. Jordan. No; I haven't.
Mr. Orme. No.
Air. ScoviLLE. There are a number of them, as Mr. Barnes men-
tioned, a dozen or so of tlie families who were there before — members
in the families where the parents are aliens who have returned. I
know of seven or eight of them.
Mr. Steedman. We have had testimony, Mr. Chairman, to the
effect that the aliens are required to check in with the United States
attorney in the (Hstiict in wliich they settle.
I have no further que stions of Mr. Barnes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you very much, Mr. Barnes, for appearing
before the committee today.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Steedman. Our next witness is Mr. Jennings. ,
9194 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
TESTIMONY OF IRVING A. JENNINGS, ATTORNEY, PHOENIX,
ARIZ.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLo. Will you please state your full name to the reporter?
Mr. Jennings. Irving A. Jennings.
I hold no official position. I am an attorney in Phoenix, Ariz.
IMr. Steedman. Are you connected with the American Legion?
Mr. Jennings, During the years 1940 and 1941 I was chairman of
the national legislative committee of the American Legion and
by reason of that fact have been quite familiar with the activities and
investigations of the Dies committee.
In fact, as you men know, the Legion has always gone to bat every
time an appropriation came up for a continuance of the Dies com-
mittee.
It was my job for 2 years to assist in every way we could to see that
the committee continued.
I would say that I believe the public generally has the utmost
confidence in the Dies committee. They believe that the Dies com-
mittee is an unbiased public body and they believe that the Dies
committee should be commended most strongly for bringing these
facts out and invite the press in so the people of the United States can
really learn what is going on in these camps.
Our newspapers in Arizona [have attempted from time to time to
get information directly from these camps, particularly at the time
of the riot in Poston last November, but they were denied admit-
tance— denied any information concerning it.
To illustrate what I mean by the confidence of, at least the people
in Arizona, have in the findings and the testimony given before this
committee, yesterday there was a hearing before the Arizona Corpora-
tion Commission, which had revoked a permit or a license of a Japanese
cooperative which was organized and incorporated under the laws of
the District of Columbia, and attempted to qualify as a foreign cor-
poration in the State of Arizona.
The War Relocation Authority had their counsel represent this
Japanese cooperative which consisted of 7,800 members — all Japanese.
The chairman of the Arizona Corporation Commission made the
statement at the opening of the hearing yesterday, that if there had
been any doubt as lo the wisdom of the Corporation Commission in
denying or canceling that license, that it had been removed by the
facts which had developed during the Dies committee hearings in Los
Angeles, and during the past week or 10 days.
Mr. Steedman. Was the permit denied?
Mr. Jennings. The hearing is still continuing this morning. It
had been cancelled and this was an effort on the part of the War
Relocation Authorities themselves to have it reinstated.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know who the attorney is representing the
Japanese cooperative?
Mr. Jennings. A man by the name of Terry.
Mr. Steedman. Is he employed by the Government?
Mr. Jennings. He is employed by the Government; yes,sir.
Mr. Steedman. By the W. R. A.?
Mr. Jennings. By the W. R. A.; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is he a white person or a Japanese?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9195
Mr. Jennings. He is a white person.
Mr. Steedman. Has the American Legion adopted any resolution
regarding the relocation of Japanese in the State of Arizona?
xMr. Jennings. The location organization has not adopted any
resolutions that I know of, except that they do, of course, approve the
stand and resolutions that have been adopted by the national organ-
ization.
You are perhaps familiar with those resolutions or the stand that the
Legion has taken nationally, which is to the effect that, in the first
place, those Japanese who are definitely disloyal to this country should
be segregated and placed in concentration camps.
The eventual program of the American Legion is, of course, to move
all Japanese out of the United States — out of the territorial limits of
the United States.
May I say that I don't believe Mr. Barnes intended to imply by his
testimony that we regarded an Arizona Jap as any better than a
California Jap. They are all the same. We don't want any of them.
Mr. Steedman. Is that the general feeling of the people in and
around Phoenix?
Mr. Jennings. It is very strongly that way. As a matter of fact
the people of the State of Arizona have determined they are not going
to have them there and there is now a legal boycott against trading
with any Japanese in the State of Arizona.
Mr. Scoviile did not mention it but the last legislature passed a law
which requires a 10 days' publication of notice and also a filing of that
notice in the Office of the Secretaiy of State, of any proposed dealing
with Japanese except the purchase of foodstuff and clothing.
Mr. CosTELLO. Any attempt to do business with the Japanese as a
regular procedure, would have to be advertised 10 days in advance
before a contract could be negotiated and go into effect?
Mr. Jennings. That is correct; and Mr. Scoviile, within the last 2
or 3 days, filed information against four citizens in the city of Phoenix,
or near the city of Phoenix, who had not complied with this law.
The Standard Oil Co., a short time ago, was charged with a viola-
tion of that law and pleaded guilty to violating the law — for selling,
I think, $9 worth of gasoline and oil.
So, I believe, generally speaking, that the law is being very carefully
observed by the people. They just won't seU them anythuig — it
makes no difference what.
Mr. CosTELLO. With reference to the sale of oil, was that a casual
sale to an individual Japanese?
Mr. Jennings. Just a casual sale.
Mr. CosTELLO. Then it would not be possible for a Japanese to go
to a filling station and get gasoline and oil for his car, would it, without
having such a notice published?
Mr. ScoviLLE. No ; it would not. That was a Japanese who bought
gasoline from the Standard O'A Co. by the barrel or half barrel which
he used for his tractors and trucks.
iVIr. Jennings. It isn't possible for him to purchase without com-
plying with this act — anything except food and clothing.
Mr. CosTELLO. Food and clothing are the only things exempt?
Mr. Jennings. That is right.
Mr. ScoviLLE. May I make a correction? Goods, wares, and mer-
chandise for personal consumption, are exceptions, and liquor and
medicines.
9196 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Jennings. Yes; and liquor.
Mr. CosTELLO. But gasoline that is used for a private car of a
Japanese for ordinary driving would not be?
Mr. ScoviLLE. That is the construction that has been placed upon
it locally.
Mr. Orme. Could I add something? Tell what the court did to
those who pleaded guilty as a result of the Standard pleading guilty.
Mr. Jennings. The court imposed a $1,000 fine for the sale of $9
worth of gasoline and oil in violation of this law.
Mr. MuNDT. Did the company pay the fine or did they appeal the
case?
Mr. Jennings. No; they paid the fine; they didn't appeal the case.
Mr. ScoviLLE. They didn't want the attendant publicity; they
wanted to plead guilty.
Mr. Jennings. It was the definite intention on the part of the War
Relocation officials to release a large number of Japanese to the
Phoenix area as evidenced by the fact that in the latter part of April
of this year, the Federal Government set up an employment office in
Phoenix for Japanese. The avowed purpose of that employment
office was to find work for Japanese that they planned to release from
these relocation centers.
The Governor of the State of Arizona very strongrly protested that
action and within about a week the employment office was closed up,
and we haven't had any since that time.
It seems to be the general feeling in our State that there is no differ-
ence— of course there is the legal difference — but actually no difference
between the American-born Japanese and the alien Japanese. As a
matter of fact they attempt to hide behind a cloak of American citizen-
ship while at the same time they maintain their dual citizenship or
loyalty to the Emperor of Japan. Unquestionably that leaves a feel-
ing in the minds of the people that there is no difference at all.
As a matter of fact the way one person put it, he said, if we hap-
pened to have been born in Japan, would that make us a Jap? The
feeling is just the reverse of that — because they happened to have been
born in the United States they are not American citizens although
technically, of course, they have been recognized as such.
Mr. Mundt. Is this new law which proliibits anybody in Arizona
from selling anything to a Japanese except food, clothing, liquor, and
medicine — does that law apply to American-born Japanese also?
Mr. Jennings. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. Has anybody brought the question of the constitu-
tionality of that law into the Supreme Court?
Mr. Jennings. It hasn't been tried out yet. There is apparently
no loyal American citizen who wishes to try it out.
Mr. CosTELLO. At least in Arizona?
Mr. Jennings. At least there; yes.
Mr. Mundt. The word "Japanese" is not mentioned in the act,
is It?
Mr. Jennings. No; it is not mentioned. They are not mentioned
by name. We have a copy of the act here if you would like to have it.
Mr. Mundt. I would like for it to be in the record as an exhibit.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9197
Mr. Jennings. It is a legislative intent of the State Legislature
to actually boycott the Japanese in any business enterprise of any
sort.
Mr. ScoviLLE. And I would like to say in that connection, if I
might interrupt, devious means are being used to avoid that act.
For example, some Japanese themselves proposed to me if they set
up a corporation, the members of which were American citizens,
that dealing with the corporation would not be a person whose move-
ment was restricted and in that manner they could circumvent the
application of this law.
They also, some of them, have entered into agreements with a
member of the Caucasian race whereby that person will transact all
their business for them on a small percentage basis.
There are devious routes being used to evade the law at the present
time. We are constantly attempting to ferret them out.
Mr. MuNDT. If that law is constitutional, if it can be enforced,
doesn't that solve your problem in Arizona? Obviously, a Japanese
cannot live there very long if he can't buy anything except liquor,
food, medicine, and clothing?
Air. Jennings. I will say this: The people of the State of Arizona
are doing everything they can to solve the problem, but we are strongly
of the opinion that we are bucking pretty strong forces in the National
Capitol, and that we might not be able to stand out against those who
have in mind releasing the Japs fl-om these centers.
Mr. ScoviLLE. In connection with the matter you just mentioned,
the foodstuffs at either wholesale or retail, are exem.pt. The majority
of the Japs are devotmg their efforts to raising foodstuffs.
Mr. MuNDT. Under that law can the Japanese farmer buy a hoe or
a spade or a shovel or a plow?
Mr. vScoviLLE. No.
Mr. MuNDT. Then how is he going to farm?
Mr. Jennings. We are hoping he won't. However, sooner or later
that law will reach the Supreme Court.
Mr. MuNDT. It would seem to me, as I said before, if your law is
constitutional, and if it is enforced, you have solved your problem be-
cause there is no way a Japanese can live with nothing more than food
and clothing and medicine.
Mr. ScoviLLE. But there are a few people, of course, who are under-
taking to do business with them.
Mr. Steedman. I offer this bill in evidence. It is entitled: ''State
of Arizona, house of representatives, sixteenth legislature, regular ses-
sion. Chapter 89, house bih No. 187. An act relating to dealings
with persons whose movements are restricted; presenting condition
under which such dealings may be had; and declaring an e: ergency."
Appearing on the first page is a rubber stamp which reads as follows:
Compiled and issued by Dan E. Garvey, Secretary of State, for use until
Session Laws are printed.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, a copy of the law will be in-
corporated in the record.
62626— 43— vol. 15 24
9198 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
(The document referred to is in words and figures as follows :)
State of Arizona, House of Representatives, Sixteenth Legislature,
Regular Session
(Compiled and issued by Dan E. Garvey, Secretary of State, for use until Session
Laws are printed)
Chapter 89, House Bill No. 187, AN ACT, Relating to dealings with persons whose movements are
restricted; presenting conditions under which such dealings may be had; and declaring an emergency
Be it Enacted hy the Legislature of the State of Arizona;
Section 1. Notice of business relations with restricted person. — Any person who:
1. Enters into any contract, agreement, or understanding, written or verbal,
involving business relations; 2. purchases, sells, trades or exchanges any real or
personal property, commodity or thing, except goods, wares, and merchandise for
personal consumption, from a person whose movements are restricted by opera-
tion of law or by any executive or other order authorized by law, or from a person who
is not eligible to citizenship, shall give notice of the transaction or business rela-
tionship, by publication not less than three times in a newspaper of general circula-
tion published in the county in which the principal place of business of such person
is located. Upon the completion of notice and at least ten days prior to the con-
summation of the proposed transaction, he shall file in the office of the secretary
of state a copy of the notice, accompanied by detailed information regarding the
transaction, and a report thereon not later than the fifth day of each month.
A separate notice and report shall be required for each separate transaction.
Sec. 2. Penalty.— VaWnvQ to comply with any provision of this Act is a mis-
demeanor, punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred nor more than one
thousand dollars, imprisonment of not less than thirty days nor more than six
months, or both. The making of any false statement, in either the notice or the
report prescribed by this Act is a felony, punishable by not less than one nor more
than three years imprisonment.
Sec. 3. Exceptions.- — -This Act shall not be construed to apply to any person:
1. acting on behalf of an agency of the United States; 2. dealing with or on behalf
of Indian wards of the Government, or, 3. dealing at wholesale or retail in wearing
apparel, food supplies, medicines, or spirituous liquors.
Sec. 4. Emergency . — To preserve the public peace, health, and safety it is
necessary that this Act become immediately operative. It is therefore declared
to be an emergency measure, to take effect in the manner provided by law.
Approved bv the Governor, March 23, 1943.
Filed in the' Office of the Secretary of State, March 24, 1943.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chainnan, the county attorney just handed me
a few exhibits of the type of advertising which takes place when they
seek to employ or do business with Japanese under the teiTns of this
law, and I ask pennission to include them in the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, it will be so ordered.
(The newspaper clippings referred to were marked "Jennings Ex-
hibit No. 1".)
Mr. Steedman. Have you anything else you wish to present to the
committee?
Mr. Jennings. About the only thing I have to off6r in addition to
what I have said already, I think it cannot be too strongly emphasized
that I think our irrigation and power system is extremely vulnerable;
that it is within easy striking distance of Japanese released, even on
leave, from these relocation centers.
It is a wholly impracticable proposition to attempt to guard the
entire area which is vulnerable and it is the opinion — I believe the con-
sensus of the opinion of the people of the State of Arizona, that the
administration of these camps, so long as they are maintained, should
be taken away from the relocation authorities and placed in the control
of the Army or Marines. I would prefer the Marines to take charge
of all the Japs in the United States.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9199
Mr. CosTELLO. I suppose you feel the Marines have had some expe-
rience and know how to handle the Japanese?
Mr. Jennings. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You spoke earlier about the Japanese cooperative
being organized m the District of Columbia and attempting to register
as a foreign corporation to do business in Arizona?
Mr. Jennings. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. And you say that permit has been canceled?
Mr. Jennings. Yes; it has been canceled.
Mr. CosTELLO. Then at the present time the cooperatives operating
in the relocation camps in Arizona would not have authority to do
business there?
Mr. Jennings. They would not have; no, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. As far as the camp itself is concerned, they are on
Indian reservations and I presume the cooperatives could do business
there.
Mr. Jennings. I should think they woidd be able to do business
on the reservations and, of course, they have attempted to use this
for the purpose of avoiding or circumventing the provisions of this
law.
In other words if they can buy and sell through the cooperative,
then they could purchase all the goods necessary to distribute among
their members.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words it would be possible for the Jap
cooperative at the Rivers camp to purchase supplies for the Japanese
and then the Japanese from the city of Phoenix could have the supplies
sent to them from the camps?
Mr. Jennings. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. But it would not be possible for the cooperative
to engage in business in any way in Phoenix, for example, the selling
of excess market products that might be produced at the camp in
the Phoenix market?
Mr. Jennings. No. I assume that would be under the control of
the relocation center itself, unless their practice still exists down there.
In Rivers they have a very democratic system. They have what
they call the town council which is composed entirely of Japanese
and anything respecting the administration of that camp must be
first taken up with the town council and they follow the recommenda-
tions of the town council.
Mr. CosTELLO. And the cooperative would not need to have a
permit from your corporation commission in Arizona if the business
was handled in the name of the W. R. A., would it?
Mr. Jennings. That is right. The law specifically exempts the
sale or purchase of goods through Government agencies.
Mr. CosTBLLO. Is there a cooperative in operation at the Rivers
camp?
Mr. Jennings. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have either of the cooperatives attempted to actu-
ally set up an office or a business institution of any kuid elsewhere
outside of the camps?
Mr. Jennings. I tliink not. However, the attorney announced to
the corporation commission that he would bring an action in the
United States district court to compel the corporation commission by
mandamus, to reinstate their certificate to do business.
9200 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. How long has this act that we incorporated into the
record been a part of the law of the State of Arizona?
Mr. Jennings. The effective date is March 23 of this year.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether the cooperatives had been
set up in these camps prior to that date?
Mr. Jennings. The date on which they attempted to qualify in the
State of Arizona was April 1 of this year.
Mr. CosTELLO. So that it is more than likely that the cooperatives
had been planned and organized prior to the passage of this particular
law?
Mr. Jennings. Yes. It had been, as a matter of fact, incorporated
in the District of Columbia, I think, a year ago.
Mr. CosTELLO. A year ago?
• Mr. Jennings. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. And at that time there was no bill of this character
before the State legislature in Arizona?
Mr. Jennings. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. Or any attempt to pass legislation of this character?
Mr. Jennings. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words the attempt to set up the coopera-
tive was initiated prior to the consideration or passage of this legisla-
tion?
Mr. Jennings. That is right. It wasn't designed for the purpose
of circumventing this law, but it makes a very handy instrument to
do so.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Jennings, has Governor Osborne of Arizona
set up a fact-finding comm.ission to determine the extent of Japanese
infiltration into the State of Arizona?
Mr. Jennings. That is correct. In the latter part of April of this
year, the Governor appointed a fact-finding committee to determine
the extent and the effect of the resettlement of Japanese in the State
of Arizona and has vigorously protested to our Senators and con-
gressional delegation the movement to permit that relocation in the
State of Arizona.
Mr. Costello. Has that committee filed a report yet?
Mr. Jennings. The committee has filed a report and the vice
chainnan of the committee had intended to appear before this com-
mittee today, but it was impossible for him, at the last moment, to get
transportation.
As a matter of fact we had intended the chairman of that com-
mittee being here today but he found at the last moment that he
could not come, and it was too late for the vice chairman to secure
transportation. Otherwise he would have been here.
Mr. Steedman. I have nothing further.
Mr. Costello. Mr. Eberharter?
Mr. Eberharter. No questions.
Mr. Costello. Thank you very much, Mr. Jennings, for appearing
before the committee.
Mr. Steedm-an, does that conclude the witnesses for this morning?
Mr. Steedman. Yes; it does.
Mr. Costello. We want to thank each of you gentlemen from
Arizona for coming up here today. Your testimony has been very
helpful and we greatly appreciate the sacrifice you have made.
UN-AMERIC,\N PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9201
Mr. ScoviLLE. And \vc appreciate the opportunity to be here.
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in recess until 2 o'clock this
afternoon.
(Thereupon, at 12:30 p. m., the hearing recessed until 2 p. m. 6f the
same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(Thereupon, the hearing was resumed at 2 p. m., pursuant to the
taking of the noon recess.)
Mr. CosTELLO: The committee will be in order.
We have this afternoon Mayor Bowron, who has previously ap-
peared before the committee. It will not be necessary for the mayor
to be sworn again.
We appreciate your coming back to the committee to give in
person the information which the committee requested you to furnish
when you were on the stand last week.
I might state the committee has received a copy of a telegram,
apparently addressed to you, by Dillon S. Myer, and I will read the
telegram into the record :
J uave today sent the following telegram to Mayor Fletcher Bowron of Los
Angeles:
"Press reports of your testimony at hearings of Costello subcommittee of
Dies committee quote you as sa3'ing Kiyoshi P. Okura whom you consider
dangerous had been released from a relocation center. For your information
Kiyoshi P. Okura has never been in a relocation center or under jurisdiction of
War Relocation Authority.
"If there are others whom you regard as dangerous and who may have been
released from relocation centers this agency would like to have their names and
any evidence you can provide supporting your feeling of their disloyalty in order
that the national safety may be protected."
Dillon S. Myer, Director.
Apparently the original of that telegram was sent to you, Mayor
Bowron; but for the purpose of the record, I think I will read into the
record at this point a telegram which was sent by Mr. INTyer to me
previous to the copy of the telegram which I have just read. The
telegram transmitting the one. sent to Mayor Bowi-on is dated June 12,
while the one I am about to read, and addressed to me by Mr. Myer,
is dated June 7, 1943.
It is addressed:
Congressman John M. Costello,
Care Dies Committee, 1405 Federal Building,
Los Angeles, Calif.:
'' I am informed that a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activity,
under your chairmanship, is opening hearings today in Los Angele> to investigate
activities of Japanese and Japanese-Americans in this country. The War Relo-
cation Authority will welcome the opportunity to cooperate with the committee
by supplying information on those phases of the problem for which this agency
is responsible.
Because of recent statements in the press attributed to members and repre-
sentatives of your committee in which facts have been garbled, I suggest it may be
helpful to have statements concerning policies and procedures of the War Reloca-
tion Authority checked before statements are released to the press. To this
end while you are on the coast I am glad to offer you the services of Mr. R. B.
Cozzens, field assistant director of this agency whose headquarters are in the
Whitcomb Hotel, San Francisco. Mr. Cozzens is thoroughlv conversant with the
War Relocation Authority program and he will be at your disposal to assist in any
way by supplying or checking information.
D. S. Myer, Director.
9202 . UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
And I might state for the purposes of the record, that most of the
statements that have been quoted in the press, I beUeve, have been
obtained directly from information that has been suppHed to the com-
mittee and I believe the press has not garbled the reports or the facts
which have been presented to the committee. On the contrary I think
they have given a very factual record of the proceedings that have
taken place before the committee.
And I might also add that it was not the intention of this commit-
tee to call upon Mr. Cozzens, so that he might censor any reports that
might go out to the press from this committee.
I don't think it is possibly within the jurisdiction of Mr. Myer to
suggest in any way that the statements that are made on behalf of this
committee to the press should be first submitted to Mr. Cozzens for
his approval or discussion.
As a matter of fact I don't believe that the Office of War Informa-
tion has, in spite of the authority vested in it to supervise press re-
leases, even suggested at any tune that releases on the part of
Congress should be censored by that Office, and for that reason I don't
think it was necessary for this committee to call upon Mr. Cozzens to
supervise any of the press releases that might have been made by this
committee.
In view of the telegram. Mayor, that was sent to you, I would appre-
ciate any statement you might like to make regarding Mr. Okura, in
view of the fact that Mr. Myer seems to take issue with you regarding
the release of Mr. Okura from confinement as a Japanese who was
evacuated from the Pacific-coast area.
TESTIMONY OF FLETCHER BOWRON— Resumed
Mr. BowRON. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, I am
glad to make a statement and give such additional information as I
have been able to collect since the receipt of the telegram.
I have not had time nor opportimity to make a full and thorough
investigation relative to Mr. Okura. But I have had access to the
confidential files of the Los Angeles Police Department and I find some
very interesting and I think, hitherto unpublished information about
him, and with your permission I will refer to the records which are
before me as the source of my information.
Mr. CosTELLO. Those are the records of the Police Department of
Los Angeles?
Mr. BowRON. That is correct, and prepared and kept by Capt.
Vernon Rassmussen, commanding the homicide bureau of the police
department.
Mr. CosTELLO. I presume, Mayor, there is no objection to the
public release of the information you are about to give us?
Mr. BowRON. I know of none. I think it would be in the public
interest.
Mr. Okura was bom in the city of Los Angeles on' September 26,
1911.
He attended high school in Wilmington, in the harbor area and the
University of California at Los Angeles from 1928 to 1933.
He received a B. A. degree in psychology and he later returned for
further studies and received an M. A. degree and then subsequently,
and as late as 1939, studied public administration.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9203
He has held various positions as a research assistant in the psycliol-
ogy dopartnieut at the U. C. L. A.
Then from 1935 to 1937 he was executive secretary of the Japanese
'American Citizens League in which capacity he supervised up to 75
people.
He was administrative assistant of the Los Angeles County Depart-
ment of Charities, from 1938 to 1939, and subsequent to 1939, he was
personnel technician of the Los Angeles Civil Service Commission.
^Vlien he registered as a voter he gave his address as 529 East
Aniheim Street, Wilmington, which is a part of the city of Los Angeles.
He registered as a Democrat.
Then reading from the report:
It has been established through the Federal Bureau of Investisation that sub-
ject's father, Momota Okura, and the wife's father, T. Arikawa, were arrested
December 7, 1942, and they are now in a concentration camp.
\\c also have information that subject was friendl}^ with Kitsrmia Mukaeda,
the president of the Japanese Cultural Societj^, a registered agent of the Japanese
Government.
Mukaeda was an importer of Japanese films and received money from the
Japanese Government for propaganda purposes.
Mr. Mukaeda is now in a concentration camp.
We interviewed Mr. Logan Hart, at 929 Third Avenue. Mr. Hart is a teacher
of stenography and office practice at the Los Angeles City College. He states
that he had many people of Japanese ancestr}- in his classes and has had much
success in teaching them office practices.
Mr. Hart also is employed by the Los Angeles CiA'il Service Department in in-
termittent work, helping the department prepare examinations for office help.
He explained that he had become acquainted with subject while they
were both working for the State personnel board, and that Okura had later asked
him if he might take the city of Los Angeles examination for examining assistant,
which he did and later was certified as such.
I mention that in support of my testimony that he was in a position
to solicit and secure other Japanese for placement in various positions
in the city's service.
Turning now to — I have just read from a report prepared by
Police Officer Carl R. Abbott, which w^as submitted to Captain
Rassmussen.
I now read from a report prepared bv Captain Rassmussen and
addressed to Chief of Police C. B. Horrall, dated March 10, 1942:
In addition to the Investigation of Officer Armstrong, which is attached, I
made the following investigation and had a personal interview with the above
subject.
In supplement to the education listed in the attached report, I learned that
Mr. Okura made a trip to Japan in 1933 where he remained for about 4 months,
as a member of the Japanese-American Student Conference.
During this time he traveled extensively over Japan and made several public
addresses or appearances before the Japanese universities.
In 1934 a return trip to the United States was made by the Japanese University
and a conference was held at Occidental University. At this conference Okura
was director of social intercour.se for the visiting body.
He further stated that he had made several trips to Mexico and a trip to
Seattle, Wash., in 1936, to attend the .Japanese American Citizens League there.
His immediate relatives in the United States are covered in the report of Officer
Armstrong. However, there are two uncles on his mother's side who are in
Japan, one of them being an engineer on the Manchukuo Railroad line, which is
a Japanese Government project, and another being a police lieutenant in Asaka,
Japan.
He stated that all the rest of the members of his family have made about two
trips to Japan during 1935 and 1936.
He denied going on these trips with them.
9204 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Above subject stated that h*" belonged to the following organizations: Japanese
American Citizens League, secretary in 1935; Japanese University Club, vice
president in 1940 and iri41; Japanese-American Savings Association, commonly
known as the Japanese Junior Chamber of Commerce; Japanese Young Men's
Christian Association organization and the Japanese Athletic Union, which is a"
branch of the Japanese Young Men's Christian Association.
Subject stated that he was a member of the Wilmington Presbyterian Church
and that his wife Lilly was also a member of the Long Beach Presbyterian Church.
However, in the last year the subject and his wife were married in the Buddhist
Shinto Temple at 2400 East Third Street, Los Angeles.
Subject further stated that he was a member of the entertainment committee
for the Japanese contingent of the Veterans of Foreign Wars when they held their
convention in New Orleans.
He also stated that he lived with his father and mother continuously until the
time of his recent marriage, which was 5 or 6 months ago.
His father is Momota Okura, who was arrested on a Presidential warrant on the
26th day of December and is now in a concentration camp.
The following is a short resume of the past activities of Momota Okura:
He was born in Akayama, Japan. He came to the United States in July of 1906
by way of Canada. He returned to Japan in 1910 or 1911 and married his present
wife. •
He has resided at Wilmington, Calif., most of the time since then.
Mr. Okura is a member of the IS^anka-Tiekoku-Gunyu-Dan, which is commonly
referred to as being the Imperial Military Friends' Group, of which he was vice-
commander in 1936.
He is also a member of the select committee of Hogii Kai, which is an organiza-
tion of the Japanese Army Reserves in the United States.
He was president of that organization in 1937 and vice commander in 1938.
He had received the eight class decoration from the Japanese Army and the
seventh class order of merit from the Japanese Army.
He was past president of the San Pedro Japanese Association, which is a tangent
of the Central Japanese Committee and was director of the Wilmington branch
of the Okavama Immigrant Association in 1938 and an auditor of this same organi-
zation in the following year.
He is also a member of the Imperial Japanese Reserves of the Order of the
Golden Kite.
I would like to interpolate here — I do not see it in the record, but
with reference to the activities and connections of the subject Okura's
father.
I was informed personally by the police officer that when the father
was arrested the son was in his home, although he had married and
gave his address as elsewhere. He was apparently living with his
father subsequent to Pearl Harbor.
Now continuing from the report :
In a conversation with Patrick Okura, and the subject sometimes is known as
Patrick Kivoshi Okura and sometimes uses the name Patrick and other times the
other name interchangeably.
In a conversation with Patrick Okura recently, I inquired as to whether or not
he had ever been a member of the board of directors of the Southern California
Chamber of Commerce and Industry, and he denied that he had. However, on
page 121 of the Rafu Shimpo Yearbook of 1940 and 1941, he was designated as
director of social intercourse.
Enclosed is a photostatic copy of this page which was recently turned over to
me from a very authentic source.
In this same conversation Okura stated he had been registered, and this relates
to a conversation between Captain Rassmussen and Okura. in this same conver-
sation Okura stated he had been registered as a dual citizen of Japan at his own
request.
He further stated that he had made application to be expatriated about 1 year
ago but he was iniable to produce his expatriation papers.
In view of the above close association between father and son and the extremely
pro-Japanese attitude shown by his father, together with the fact that he became
a dual citizen of Japan at his own request, and that he is a member of an organiza-
tion fostered by and is a part of the Japanese Imperial Government program, and
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9205
at the same time maintaining a position of trust and extreme confidence in the
branch of.ovir local government, to wit, the civil-service department, I do not feel
that he can properly serve with loyalty these two diametrically op[)oscd govern-
mental agencies.
It is my opinion in view of the above evidence that there is sufficient provocation
to terminate his employment with the city of Los Angeles immediately.
And then I read from a copy of a communication to the subject
matter, Okura, from the general manager of the civil-service depart-
ment, dated March 17, 1942, pursuant to this report;
Dear Mr. Okura: On Friday, March 13, the civil-service commission was
presented with a report stating among other things, that you had registered for
dual citizenship at your own request; and further that there was no evidence
that expatriation had ever been granted.
The report also stated that you were a director of social intercourse in the
Southern California Chamber of Commerce and Industry, although such connec-
tion was alleged to have been denied by you.
Because of the above the commission instructed me to notify you that your
connection with the city is hereby terminated.
They at the same time appointed a committee consisting of Commissioners
Gillette and Welner, to hear any appeal you might care to make concerning this
action.
Joseph W. Hawthorne, General Manager.
I have not had time to contact either Mr. Gillette or Mr. Welner,
both of whom are members of the commission, but I have been advised
that he made no denial of the allegations.
At the time of my testimony here on Thursday, I was under the
impression, and a rather natural inference I believe, that Okura had
been released from a relocation camp.
I have since learned, and I give this information to the committee
for checking and further investigation, that Okura never was in a re-
location camp; that he was taken to Santa Anita and that by some
means or method, of which I am not familiar, that he was, apparently,
released from that camp by what authority I do not know. And that
subsequently he located in a certain institution of learning, a school for
boys.
I have further been informed, and I present this information to the
committee for investigation because my information is hearsay, that
when a list was presented by the Japanese Government to the State
Department for a return of civilian prisoners to Japan m exchange for
Americans incarcerated in Japan, that the name of Okura was on the
ofTicial list presented by the Japanese Government; that when Okura
was advised of that fact he made a considerable show of objection and
said that he would decline to go back to Japan and avowed his und5^ing
patriotism to the United States Government and he was released.
Now, in further response to the suggestion of Mr. Dillon S. Myer,
director, I have not had a full opportunity to make an investigation
witli respect to all of the employees of the city of Los Angeles, but I
have found in my files this bit of information, and I wdll read from a
letter which I wrote to Richard B. Hood, special agent in charge of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, United States Department of Justice,
under date of October 22, 1942:
I feel that the following information is authentic and of such importance to
require consideration. Miya Sannomiya Kikuchi, a Japanese w^man who for
sometime has been a resident of Los Angeles, has been released from the concen-
tration camp at Manzanar for a period of 30 days to go on a lecture tour for the
International Young Women's Christian Association, speaking before women's
groups.
9206 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs. Kikuchi is the wife of Dr. Y. Kikuchi.
She was born in this country and is a graduate of the University of California.
She is not only well educated but brilliant, attractive, and charming, the kind that
could disseminate Japanese propaganda in the most subtle way by making favor-
able impressions upon all with whom she comes in contact, and creating the im-
pression that probably native-born Japanese have been unfairly dealt with and by
inspiring a friendly feeling if not actual sympathy for the military Japanese class.
Just why it is necessary that Mrs. Kikuchi should be released to make a tour
of this character is very hard to understand by those of us who worked so hard to
bring about the internment of Japanese on the coast.
The selection of this woman to make a tour for the International Young Wom-
en's Christian Association is even more significant because she recently spent
4 years in Japan where she perfected herself in writing and reading the Japanese
language, and during the time of her stay in Tokyo she was in constant contact
with influential persons in social and political life.
She was connected with the travel department of the Anglo-Japanese division
of the Japanese Society of Cultural Relations.
Since her return to this country she has been very diligent and very effective in
creating friendly feelings for the Japanese and the Japanese Government.
Additional information may be secured from Miss Fay Allen who, for some
years, served as secretary of the Y. W. C. A. at the University of California at
Los Angeles.
Miss Allen was in Japan in about 1935 and noted Mrs. Kikuchi's activities
while there and recalls that she associated with Germans.
I might suggest that not only should this woman be carefully watched, her
contacts noted, the nature of her talks to groups of women carefully recorded,
but an investigation might well be made as to just how she rather than others,
if a Japanese woman had to be selected at all, happened to be chosen for making
a tour under such circumstances as would permit the dissemination of Japanese
propaganda.
I had an acknowledgement from Mr. Hood, who advised me that
the F. B. I. would make an investigation. I have heard nothing
further relative to that case.
Pursuant to the request of the committee, I have made inquiry
from the police department and from all other departments of the
city government in which Japanese employees formerly worked, and
I find that no inquiry has been made as to any Japanese that had
formerly been employed by the city of Los Angeles.
The chief of police states that from time to time some requests
for information concerning Japanese individuals who happened to be
citizens of Los Angeles, were received from the provost marshal's
office, but not from any other source. And he says:
I can find no record of direct correspondence between any governmental
agency and this department concerning the request for investigation for the
release of Japanese from internment centers.
I think that is all I have to say on the subject.
Mr. CosTELLO. Might I interrupt with a question:
You made a statement that occasionally the police department did
receive requests from the provost marshal's office. That would un-
doubtedly be in connection with Japanese who are m the United Army?
Mr. BowRON. He says:
They have stated these requests were made for the purpose of determining the
character of Japanese because of contemplated enlistment in the armed services.
That is the assumption of the police department and the chief of
police believes that, so far as his records show and his memory serves
him, that nt) request has ever been made with respect to any Japanese
after they were rounded up and taken to relocation centers.
There is just one point, and I make this statement in the interest
of the city, and it may not concern or be of great interest to the com-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES . 9207
niittco, but that has to do with the location of the relocation center at
Alanzanar.
I may say that I was quite active in getting the Japanese out of
Los Angeles and its environs. I thought there was a dangerous sit-
uation here and I held various conferences and worked with Tom
Clark, now Assistant United States Attorney General, who was des-
ignated in charge of enem}' alien activities on the Pacific coast, and
together with him and then the Attorney General, now Governor
Warren, we held a long conference with General DeWitt relative to
the situation, and I hope we were • somewhat helpful in General
DeWitt making his decision, which I feel was a very fine one for the
safety and security of the Pacific coast.
If it had not been for his prompt and courageous and efficient
action, I am afraid we would have had some serious events on the
coast.
Because of my interest and my insistence in getting the Japanese
away from the coast, and out of Los Angeles proper, we were placed
in^ a somewhat embarrassing position when it was suggested that a
relocation camp be located in ^lanzanar in the Owens Valley, on land
controlled by the city of Los Angeles.
I personally accompanied Mr. Tom Clark before a meeting of the
Board of Water and Power Commissioners of the City of Los Angeles
and urged favorable action, upon Air. Clark's statement, and I am
sure that it was made in entire good faith, that that would be a tempo-
rary camp only; that it would in a sense be a checking station to be
used only until permanent camps could be developed, locations selected
and buildings constructed in other localities.
I understood they were merely selecting this place because they had
to move quickly and promptl}'' and under such circumstances the board
of water and power commissioners gave their consent.
I would like to call attention to the fact that Manzanar is close to
the headwaters of the domestic water supply of the city of Los Angeles,
a supply for upwards of one mDlion and a half people. And while we
have not had any reports of anything that would endanger the water
supply, there is, nevertheless, that possibility.
And while we want to be helpful in this entire program, we feel that
they have rather out-worn their welcome which we understood would
be only a short visit.
We hope that if it means the releasing of Japanese and scattering
them over the country among the civilian population we will not insist
upon — we would rather see them there than in no camp at all, but
if
Mr. CosTELLO, It would be better to have them retained at Man-
zanar rather than have them scattered throughout the country?
Mr. BowRON. If there are other places available we would like to
see them moved on.
There is one more matter of interest that may have come to the
attention of the committee, or may not: I receive a great many letters
from citizens relative to the Japanese situation. I may say that I
think 98 percent of them insist that the Japanese be not brought back
here at all. I will go further: I know of none that say they should be
brought hsuck here.
Some of them object and say I have gone a little too far in attacking
a minority group. But I think that the opinion of the people as
9208 . UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVJTIE>S
indicated by my correspondence, shows that the people of this locahty
feel alike with respect to the return of the Japanese.
In one of these letters received within the last few days, a Air. R. C.
Douthitt, whose address is 6350 Newell Street, Huntington Park,
Calif., encloses with his letter a communication from a special assistant
to the Secretary of the Interior, to whom Mr. Douthitt had written.
I shall not make reference to his letter, as to what he wrote about, but
the letter from the Department of the Interior or the letter signed by
W. H. McCrillis, special assistant to the Treasury, states in part:
Perhaps you might be interested in reading the enclosed leaflet concerning these
unfortunate people.
And he enclosed a pamplilet printed in the United States Printing
OfRce which refers to "relocating a people."
Inasmuch as this may not have come to the attention of the com-
mittee, I might, if you desire, offer it for the files of the committee.
Mr. CosTELLO. We will be glad to make the letter and pamplilet an
exhibit.
(The letter and pamphlet referred to were marked "Bowron
Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. BowRON. Now, I would like to add just this much to the testi-
mony: The city of Los Angeles and the police department and all
officials and employees of the city know our place. We have not
endeavored to inject ourselves into matters of Federal concern.
We have endeavored to cooperate with all governmental agencies
and have not made investigations of Japanese in this locality.
We have assumed, w.e hope correctly, that there are governmental
agencies which have made sufficient and full investigation of Japanese
who are released.
But at no time have we been advised that Japanese who have been
connected with the city of Los Angeles or who have lived in this
locality have been released or were about to be released.
We would be very glad through oiu* police department or other city
agencies to supply any information that we could if requested.
I make that statement because I am not prepared to give Mr.
Myer all the information that he should have about the release of
Japanese merely because they lived in the city of Los Angeles.
I believe many of them to be dangerous but I can't tell him which
one or ones. If he would tell us that some of our former fellow citizens
were about to be thrust upon the people of the country, we would be
very glad to tell him whether we thought they were dangerous or not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mayor, do you feel the proposal as outlined by
Mr. Myer is in reverse gear; instead of your supplying all the informa-
tion on all the Japanese that might be available in the city here, that
he should specifically make request upon the city concerning Japanese
who are about to be released, if that is to be the program of the Author-
ity?
Mr. BowRON. It would seem to me in the interest of the public
safety, if through certain agencies, not necessarily making the informa-
tion public, but a list of those about to be released could be furnished
in order that a check could be made — that would be the proper man-
ner to handle this situation.
We have assumed, and I think practically everyone in this area has
assumed, that they were there for keeps — at least for the duration^
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITTES 9209
until we commenced to read that they were being scattered around
the country and then we didn't know what ones tliey were.
l\ir. Steedman. I have no fm-ther questions.
Mr. CosTELLO. Any questions, IMr. Eberharter?
Mr. Eberharter. No questions.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt?
Mr. Mundt. No questions.
Mr. CosTELLO. Does that conclude your testimony, Mr. Mayor?
IMr. BowRON. I think that is all I have to say.
Mr. CosTELLO. We appreciate very much your coming back before
the committee and I believe you have given us very valuable testimony
in the course of this afternoon's proceedings.
\Ve appreciate your suggestion regarding the desirability on the
part of the W. R. A., to elicit information — all the information
possible regarding any Japanese who are to be released before such
persons should be released from the relocation centers in which they
are being; detained.
Thank you very much, Mayor.
We will take a short recess.
(Thereupon a short recess was taken.)
]\Ir. CosTELLO. The committee will please be in order.
Mr. Steedman. Our next witness is Mr. Alfred A. Cohn.
TESTIMONY OF ALFRED A. COHN, MEMBER OF THE LOS ANGELES
POLICE COMMISSION
(The \\'itness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you please state your name to the reporter?
Mr. Cohn. Alfred A. Cohn.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Cohn, are you a member of the Los Angeles
Police Commission?
Mt. Cohn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. For how long have you been a member?
Mr. Cohn. Three years.
Mr. Steedman. W^ere you at one time collector of customs for the
city of Los Angeles?
i\Ir. Cohn. No; for the southern California district.
Mr. Steedman. And how long were you collector of customs for
the southern California district?
]Mr. Cohn. t'ive years.
Air. Steedman. During that time did you come in contact with
the Japanese at the Los Angeles Harbor?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
!Mr. Steedman. And did you become familiar with Japanese
organizations?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, I did.
Mr. Steedman. As well as the Japanese fishing fleet operations?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. In the course of your duties as collector of customs,
did you meet a lot of Japanese?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And just prior to Pearl Harbor, did you become
interested in the Japanese situation?
Mr. Cohn. No. I think it was after Pearl Harbor that — well, I
have always been interested in it.
9210 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
I instituted the investigation by the Treasury Department into the
activities of the Japanese fishing fleet some years ago, but I wasn't
very active in looking into Japanese matters until after Pearl Harbor
and the day of Pearl Harbor.
Mr. CosTELLO. In your position as collector of customs, however,
the customs officers were taking cognizance of the Japanese activities,
particularly around the harbor?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. And any information you uncovered was made
available to the Naval Intelligence or G-2 — ^the Intelligence Depart-
ment of the "War Department?
Mr. CoHN. Well, G-2 wasn't very active then but O. N. I., Naval
Intelligence, was very active and has been all the time in the Japanese
situation. But my activities were in connection, of course, with the
Treasury Department directly.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Cohn, after Pearl Harbor did you familiarize
yourself with the conditions in the city government with reference to
the employment of Japanese?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. The mayor asked me to make certain investiga-
tions or, I might say, a survey of the situation rather, and an investiga-
tion which I did for him.
Mr. Steedman. Did you make an effort to work or cooperate with
the young American-born Japanese during that period?
Mr. Cohn. Yes; on the assumption that there would be no evacua-
tion; that they would continue to be here. We thought it very im-
portant to keep the Japanese in line, so to speak and we knew that.the
elder Japanese, the Issei were the dangerous ones and that they would
be taken into custody as they were discovered and we figured that the
chief problem was to get control of the American-born Japanese and
see what we could do to keep them m line.
Mr. Costello. What efforts were made in that direction?
Mr. Cohn. Well, we had several meetings with Japanese-Americans.
I endeavored to set up under the direction of the mayor, an agency to
propagandize the Japanese of dift'erent classes, by radio, newspapers,
and in other ways.
W^e lined up an organization of writers who worked with the Japa-
nese. I made a trip to Washington for the purpose of getting aid from
the Federal Government, because there were no funds available for
the expenses that would be necessary, such as buying radio time and
newspaper space or whatever was required. *
Mr. Costello. Did you meet with any success in Washington in
obtaining assistance for the program?
Mr. Cohn. No.
Mr. Costello. None of the Government agencies seemed in-
terested in carrying out that program?
Mr. Cohn. No; they didn't seem to be interested in the Japanese
at all back there. I went to every agency that I thought would be
interested and found that there were no funds available for anything
of that kind.
Mr. Costello. Was it your thought immediately after Pearl
Harbor that definite steps should be taken and efforts made to keep
the Japanese patriotic Americans?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. And not permit them to be alienated?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9211
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. And for that purpose a program of propagandizing:
them was proposed but the Federal authorities were not interested or
not cooperative in such a movement?
^Ir. CoHN. That is right; but, of course, almost immediately came
the evacuation orders and that would have upset any plan that we
might have made.
Mr. Steedman. Are you familiar with the case of Kiyoshi Okura?
Mr. CoHN. Yes; I am.
^ I could add to the mayor's statement about Okura, that he denies
these allegations contained ui Captain rRassmussen's report — the
story that he admitted registering dual citizenship — that is, on his
own initiative.
When he was cited before the Civil Service Commissioners he
didn't produce any evidence or any documents to support his denial,
but he made such a good talk before the Civil Service Commission
that they refused to separate him from the service as requested and
merely extended his leave.
Mr. Steedman. And is that his present status?
Air. CoHN. I think that is his present status. Now, the police who
have investigated subversive activities have regarded him from the
beginning as the leader of the — I wouldn't say the leader, but the most
important person on the bad side.
Captain Rassmussen told me no later than today when I wanted to
check on the various stores, that he regarded Okura as the most
dangerous Japanese in America today and he said that went for aliens
as weU as Americans — American-born Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Did Captain Rassmussen make a thorough check
on Okura?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, he has. He was in charge of the subversive detail.
Mr. Steedman. Did you visit Santa Anita when the Japanese
were located there?
Mr. Cohn. Several times; yes.
Mr. Steedman. In any of your visits to Santa Anita, did you see
Okura?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And did you discuss him with the officials at
Santa Anita?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. \Mio did you discuss Okura with?
Mr. Cohn. I discussed him with Mr. Wilbur — Gene Wilbur, who
was in charge of Santa Anita during the closing days there. He told
me that Okura's name was on this list of exchange prisoners, I guess
you would call it, or an exchange of nationals, which amazed me
because Okura was a native-born. He was American born but as I
recall it they received a list from the State Department containing 68
names of Japanese who were at Santa Anita, and Okura was the only
American-born Japanese on the list.
Mr. CosTELLO. That was the list of names submitted by Tokyo
requesting their return to Japan?
Yes, sir; this list came from Tokyo and it was in connection with
■the return of Americans and Japanese in our concentration camps.
That was the fu'st exchange in which they used the Swedish liner
Gripsholm.
9212 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Apparently the Japanese Government thouglit
that Okiira was veiy important from their standpoint?
Mr. CoHN. Well, that would be the natm-al assmnption. How-
ever, when Okm-a was notified that his name was on this list he ap-
peared before Mr. Wilbur and made violent protest against going to
Japan; he said that he was born in America and that he wanted to
stay here.
His wife also made a very eloquent plea for him and he was not in-
cluded in the list.
Mr. Steedman. Was Okura at Santa Anita during the last days of
Santa Anita?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Just prior to the relocation of the Japanese?
Mr. CoHN. Yes; he was there while they were evacuating — while
they were sending them to these different relocation camps.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any information regarding the reasons
behind the releasing of Mr. Okura?
Mr. CoHN. Not the reasons, no. I can't conceive of any reason.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have any of the facts surrounding his re-
lease?
Mr. CoHN. Yes; I know the facts.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please relate the facts?
Mr. Cohn. I was of the opinion that Okura went out with the last
evacuees. He was helping in the evacuation and I didn't know until
March, about the middle of March.
Mr. Steedman. 1943?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir; this last March — I didn't learn until then that
he was out of a relocation center because I assumed that he went with
the rest of them,
I didn't learn until 3 or 4 days ago that he was never evacuated to
a relocation center and that on the day that the last Japanese went out
from here, from Santa Anita, that he and his wife w'ere driven down to
the station and got on a train for Omaha, Nebr., so actually during all
this time he never did come under the supervision or authority of the
W. R. A.
Now, how he was released I don't know.
Mr. CosTELLO. You don't know of any other Japanese evacuees
who were released from Santa Anita or any other evacuation camp
directly to the midwest or eastern section of the country ?
Mr. Cohn. I made some inquiries in the last few days and I was
told that a small number of them had been evacuated from Santa
Anita to go to college somewhere. But again that wasn't the War
Relocation Authority — it must have been the W. C, C. A., which was
the civilian agency under the Anny.
Mr. CosTELLO. That was the civilian agency that was operating
the evacuee centers?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir; and those men were all obtained, I think, from
the W. P. A. -
But I couldn't get any facts regarding these others that were
evacuated.
Mr. CosTELLO. You have reference now to those who were released
to go to school or to attend classes?
Mr. Cohn. They were released to go to certain specific schools. I
think they had made application to attend certain schools in the
Middle West.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9213
Mr. CosTELLO. And that was a case of continuing their education?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. But Okura's education, apparently, had been
completed?
Mr. CoHN. I would say it had,
Mr. CosTELLO. And he is not at the boys' school as a student?
Mr. CoHN. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. But he is there in some other capacity in the
school?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. 1 have finished with my examination, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe, Mr. Cohn, if the program, such
as 5'^ou and the mayor had under advisement earlier for propagandiz-
ing the Japanese in order to keep them loyal had been consummated
that it might have been possible to retain the loyalty of a great
percentage of the Japanese?
Mr. Cohn. I do decidedly. I had several meetings with different
groups of Japanese-Americans in trying to make as intelligent a
survey of the situation as possible, but the whole picture was very
mucli confused because of the jealousies between various Japanese
groups.
There was a group in I^os Angeles, in Little Tokyo, a group of
American-born Japanese that were so well Americanized that they
saw in the gathering up of the so-called dangerous aliens who con-
trolled the business life of the Japanese colony all over the coast;
they saw in that an opportunity to take over some of these businesses,
and they did.
They had no thought that they were going to be sent away to a
concentration camp and they took advantage of a lot of those aliens.
There was another organization that made a racket of selling travel
permits to Japanese. I mean they just preyed on their own people.
Mr. CosTELLo. And that was a Japanese organization?
Mr, Cohn. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. And identified with the Japanese themselves?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. They had what they called the Big Four— -
composed of four of the smartest young Japanese Americans, and
they just went to town on it.
In my efforts to obtain information I had one meeting with this
Japanese American Citizens League and I tried to get their coop-
eration in this plan. They thought it was a great idea and I was
trying to get at just what they had to work on.
I asked them their views on how many could be regarded as loyal
Americans and one of the loafUn-s told me that would say that only
25 percent of the Japanese-Americans could be relied upon as 100
percent loyal; that 50 percent wei"e wavering.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, could be influenced?
Mr. Corn, That could be swung into line and that 25 percent,
the remaining 25 percent were regarded as disloyal.
Now, that was their own figures but it would give us enough to
work on. It gave us at least this 50 percent to work on.
Mr. CosTELLO. Of the group that was disloyal, would you say the
majority of them were Issei or would they be native boys?
62626 — 43— vol. 15 25
9214 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CoHN. No ; the Kibei. I think the least dangerous of the lot
was the mass of aliens who had come over here years ago, long before
Japan had launched its military program.
The most dangerous were the Kibei — the ones who had been sent
back to Japan to be educated and indoctrinated at an early age.
The ones who had returned within the last 6 or 7 years before the
invasion of Manchukuo, because they were really modern Japanese,
subscribed to the military program.
Mr. CosTELLO. You feel the most dangerous group among the
Japanese is the Kibei who had been educated in Japan since Japan
set forth on the conquest of Manchuria?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir; they didn't even go to the trouble of learning
English. A great many American-born Japanese today cannot speak
a word of English. They didn't want to learn the English language.
Mr. CosTELLO. But that was true only of the Kibei who came back
to this country in recent years?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. How about the earlier Kibeis?
Mr. CoHN. The earlier Kibeis came back because they didn't like
it over there; they didn't see the opportunities there for them that
there was in this country.
Mr. CosTELLO. At that time the military regime did not have
complete control in Japan so as to be in a position to indoctrinate all
American-born Japanese going over there with their military culture?
Mr. CoHN. That is right; yes, sir; and I would like to say in their
behalf that I think by and large the Japanese, not only the citizens
but the aliens, were the most law-abiding minority we had in this
country.
Mr. CosTELLO. I was going to ask you about that.
Mr. CoHN. And the police records will show that.
Mr. CosTELLo. As member of the police commission, you have
available the records of the city of Los Angeles and they indicate that
the type of crime for which they might be convicted, was for minor
offenses and things of that character?
Mr. CoHN. Not only that but while I was collector of customs, I
was also coordinator of all law-enforcement agencies of the Treasury
Department and we had quite a lot of contact with Japanese and a
chance to study them.
There was one group in this country that was crooked and gangsters
which constituted all the narcotic smuggling that was done in this
country, but outside of that very small group, I think they were law
abiding and I think there still is an opportunity to make pretty good
Americans out of the group — the majority of them, if it is gone about
right.
I think with another generation — I think at least the 3'ounger
Japanese — the Japanese- American youngsters are perhaps the most
patriotic of the lot and I think that incident at Manzanar proves that —
the incident of the Boy Scouts up there. I don't know whether you
have heard that story or not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Not in the testimony.
Mr. CoHN. Well, I think it should be a part of your record because
it is a part of the general picture.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9215
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee Ims not gone into the Manzanar
situation in its investigation, but we hope to get that into the record
before we close the record.
Mr. CoHN. This isn't merely Manzanar. It is just a fact. These
Boy Scouts when the riot started up there and the rioters went over
to pull down the American flag, these Boy Scouts surrounded the flag
and bravely defied them.
Mr. CosTELLO. And you feel if the proper influences are at work
within the relocation centers the Japanese can remain loyal Americans,
but if you allow the disloyal Kibei group to assume control, the oppo-
site efi'ect is going to be had?
Mr. CoHN. Yes; and I think that is what has happened because in-
stead of — and of course the story that I get is hearsay — not exactly
hearsay because I have the information in letters, and I guess legally
that is hearsay, but the story I get is that when there is trouble in these
camps instead of corralling the bad ones
Mr. CosTELLO. The troublemakers?
Mr. CoHN. The troublemakers, they take the loyal Japanese and
send them away in order to protect them from harm. I know that
that was done at Manzanar.
Mr. CosTELLO. You have found that w^henever the Kibei stir up
trouble that the loyal Nisei are sent out of the camp into other centers
where they are protected?
Mr. CoHN. Yes. It shows at least that they are not able to protect
the loyal Americans and the ones who want to be loyal.
I know they sent 50 or 60 out of Manzanar after that demonstra-
tion on December 7. They sent them down to an abandoned C C. C.
camp at Death Valley Monument.
Mr. CosTELLO. And those 50 or 60 had nothing to do with inciting
the riot?
Mr. CoHN. They are the ones who tried to stop the riot.
Mr. CosTELLO. And for having tried to stop the riot, they were
rewarded by being confined in a separate camp on the desert?
Mr. CoHN. Yes; and put in a place where there was not even the
conveniences that they had had at Manzanar.
Mr. CosTELLO. If the same theory were followed every time there
is a burglary in Los Angeles, you would take the householder who was
burglarized and put him in jail and let the burglar go free?
Mr. CoHN. Yes; and if you want to follow that to a logical con-
clusion, let the crooks terrorize the rest of them. ,
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Cohn, do you have any suggestion that you
might offer to this committee regarding the method of handling
these camps that might improve the present situation? I mean,
from th(! particular instance which you cited the administration is,
not accomplishing the best results in preserving the Americanism
of these Japanese. Do you have any suggestion to offer that we might
consider as a possible means of improving the administration of these
camps and preventing the subversion of the Japanese?
Mr. Cohn. I think the important thing is to get people running
these camps that know the Japanese.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you think such people are available?
9216 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CoHN. There are. I don't subscribe to the theory that all
Japanese are bad because I know some that are pretty good and I
would vouch for their loyalty anywhere.
I think a great many people back in Washington subscribe to the
idea of returning the Japanese to the control of the Army.
Now, the Army never was in control of them. The Army simply
ordered their evacuation but it was the civilian authorities that had
charge of it.
Jf T had any say in the matter I would turn the situation over to the
branch of the service that knows the Japanese best. I don't think
anyone has suggested this, but I think the Navy knows more about
Japanese than the Army because the Navy has specialized in that.
Every year for years the Navy has designated certain officers whom
they call language officers to go to Japan and learn about the people
and learn the language and everything.
The Office of Naval Intelligence long before Pearl Harbor had made
a study of the Japanese. Japanese language officers have always
been assigned to duty on this coast and they always maintain contacts
with Japanese Amei'icans and as a consequence they know more
about the Japanese, here as well as those in Japan, than anyone else.
Now, the Army never had that set-up. While I know the Navy
liad for 3 years an officer out there who is now in virtual charge of
Naval Intelligence. He made it a life work really. He would go
around and lecture to the Japanese societies. He laiew more about
it, I thirds, than anybody — -I mean he knows more about the Japanese
than anybody and how to handle them.
My only suggestion would be that a man like this officer, Captain
Zachery, whom I understand has recently been made an admiral, a
man like that if he had over-all management of the thing, could con-
trol the situation.
I don't think anybody else can because you have got to loiow the
Japanese to do that.
Mr. CosTELi.o. And he was located here in Los Angeles?
Mr. CoHN. No; he was in charge of the Eleventh Naval District.
He was located in San Diego but this was all his district and he would
go around and lecture. For years he lectured to the Japanese. He
would go around to the Japanese societies and he told them what was
going to happen. ^
Mr. CosTELLO. Had he spent some time in Japan?
Air. CouN. He had spent 3 or 4 years in Japan. I think he is
regarded as the most able man in Naval Intelligence.
If thev could get a man like that who knows the people and knows
their problems and knows how to talk to them instead of a lot of
welfare workers who— well, far be it from me to express my thought —
Mr. CosTELLO. It would be your thought to have a man with the
background of Captain Zachery in charge of this whole war relocation
prograhi?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir; and it would still be in charge of the armed
services and it would be handled intelligently.
Mr. CosTELLO. Somebody with that background would be able to
provide competent direction to the organization and operation of the
<iamps?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9217
Mr. CosTELLO. And then possibly the existing camp administrators
would be able to function as long as they had a superior in charge
who thoroughly understood the Japanese?
Mr. CoHN. Yes. But you can't handle Japanese like a lot of flood
refugees or Dust Bowl refugees.
I think the thing has been very badh'' handled from its inception.
I think the W. P. A. people who had charge of these assembly centers,
as they called them, did a much better job because thcj had very
little trouble in any of those camps.
Mr. CosTELLo. At least they had no subversive trouble such as
has taken place in the relocation centers?
Mr. CoHN. No; and they had a tough job because they had to take
these people when they were fresh and after just having sufi"ered a
terrific disillusionment — that is the American-born Japanese who had
no idea that they would ever be put in any kind of a camp.
A pretty good job was done by them, and I don't, think there was
any trouble any^vhere until they got into these places where they were
handled by welfare workers and men trained in Indian aftairs.
There is quite a dift'erence between the American Indian and the
Japanese — a lot of difference.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you any questions, Mr. Eberharter?
Mr. Eberharter. No questions.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt?
Mr. Mundt. No questions.
Mr. Steedman. That is all.
Mr. Costello. Do you have' any further statement to make, Mr.
Cohn?
Mr. Cohn. No; I have not.
Mr. Costello. We appreciate very much your coming here and
offering these suggestions to the committee. I think they are going
to be helpful to us.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, the following gentlemen repre-
senting the Fellowship of Reconciliation have requested a hearing and
their request was granted by the committee:
Mr. Glenn E. Smiley, 1411 West Twenty-second Street, secretary,
Fellowship of Reconciliation, clergyman in Methodist Church.
Rev. Allan Hunter, 4609 Prospect, chairman, Southern California
Fellowship of Reconciliation; chairman, Social Action Committee of
the Southern California Congregational Conference.
Rev. Norman Tajdor, 3764 Watseka Avenue, chairman, Commission
of Interracial Goodwill of the Church Federation of Los Angeles.
Methodist clergyman.
Dr. Kirby Page, La Habra, Calif., vice chairman, National Council,
Fellowship of Reconciliation. Minister of the Christian Church.
Alan Hennebold, 1546 North Poinsetta, member, National Com-
mittee, Fellowship of Reconciliation.
Dr. S. Martin Eidsath, 1749 West Forty-second Street, pastor,
Southwest Presbyterian Church. Chairman of the Department of
Social Education and Action of the Church Federation of Los Angeles.
Also chairman of the Committee of Social Education and Action of
the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America.
Mr. Steedman. Our first witness will be Mr. Eidsath.
Mr. Costello. Will you please stand and be sworn?
9218 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
TESTIMONY OF S. MARTIN EIDSATH, MEMBER OF THE CHURCH
FEDERATION OF LOS ANGELES
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your full name and occupation to
the reporter?
Mr. EiDSATH. My name is S. Martin Eidsath, I am appearing as
a member of the Church Federation of Los Angeles, and speaking for
Dr. Farnham, the executive secretary. .
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Eidsath, I asked Mr. Smiley if he would sub-
mit credentials prior to any witness appearing here today.
Did you bring with you your credentials from the organization
which you represent?
Mr. Eidsath. Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I did not, except I have
a written statement on the stationery of the Church Federation of
Los Angeles, which I would like to submit unless you wish me to
read it.
I have nothing oral to add to the written statement.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was the statement prepared by yourself?
Mr. Eidsath. Prepared by members of the church federation
which, appears in the statement.
Mr. CosTELLO. And who signed the statement?
Mr. Eidsath. Dr. E. C. Farnham, executive secretary of Los
Angeles.
It is accompanied by several documents signed by the president of
the federation and the president of 'the Southern California Church
Council.
It has also other documents attached to it.
Mr. CosTELLO. All we are interested in is knowing whom you
represent when you appear here and by what authority you speak on
behalf of the organization.
In other words, if you come representing the Church Federation of
Los Angeles, we want some indication as to your authority to speak
for the church federation.
Mr. Eidsath. Sir, if you will permit me to read the opening para-
graph of this statement perhaps that will clarify it.
Mr. CosTELLO. And that is a signed statement?
Mr. Eidsath. This is a signed statement by the executive secretary
of the church federation.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed to read the statement.
Mr. Eidsath. The church federation has not been able to act
formally on a statement to be presented to your committee, but
leaders of the federation have endorsed the statement that follows as
being a fair interpretation of the views of the church on the issues
involved. Attached to the statement are copies of docunients adopted
previously by the church federation being upon the subject.
While we, as churchmen, worked hard during the times of peace to
secure an international order which could preserve the peace, we
recognize the fact of war and the military necessities incident thereto
and are concerned for the quickest success of those efforts by which
war may cease.
Second. Regarding the evacuated Japanese, we do not seek nor do
we know of any sizable group of people who seek the return of the
Japanese to the Pacific coast during the war. While under the
UN-AMERICAN I*ROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9219
American Constitution except for martial law and military require-
ments, the American-born Japanese j)robably have legal right to
return, we hold that it would be most unwise for them to do so.
Third. We hold no particular brief for the War Relocation Au-
thority as such, certainly not as a political football; but we have
been impressed that its leaders have undertaken to do a constructive
job by which to save and encourage the Americanism that existed
among the Japanese. We believe that honest evaluation should be
made of those policies and procedures and that when found to be
good they should not be disrupted for political or ulterior reasons.
Particularly, do we believe that criticism or attack on the W. R. A.
should not be for the purpose of perpetrating undiscriminating
severity of treatment upon Japanese who may be desirous of proving
themselves to be good Americans.
Fourth. We fear that the agitation regarding the American-
Japanese is much in excess of the facts: That too much of it arises
from a spirit of hatred and racial animosity which is un-Cliristian and
un-American and directly in kind with the sort of thing which we
are attempting to curb on the part of the Axis Nations.
We have suggested, as indicated by attached docimients, that
there are organized groups engaged in fostering ill will. We believe
such agitation can cause a wasteful diversion of public attention
from the more important business of winning the war.
Fifth. W^e believe there should be no pampering of our American-
Japanese people for they must bear the hardships of war along with
all the rest, but we do not believe that the conditions under which
most of them now live can be considered by any stretch of the imagi-
nation as pampering. We believe that any other policy which
might be based upon animosity, unnecessary harshness, or abridge-
ment of civil rights where there is no military necessity means a
disappointing denial of American principles and a deplorable failure
to apply Christian and American standards in behalf of a constructive
solution of an unhappy situation.
SLxth. It has been our privilege to know many of the Japanese
who are now under evacuation. Many of them have been members
of our Christian churches. We know their desire to be worthy
citizens of the United States, even on the part of those who were
denied citizenship because of our laws. We believe that distinctions
can be made — within the requirements of national safety — between
the loyal and the disloyal.
We believe that a policy of confinement of the suspected disloyal
is proper; and that the loyal ones, especially the American-born are
products of our American schools, should be encouraged and aided
in finding places in civilian or military life by which to advance their
Americanism.
We believe that such a constructive policy will reveal that these
people have something of value to contribute to our national life and
that such treatment will prove an encouragement to peaceful interna-
tional relations in the future whereas a policy of hatred and harshness
wdll generate bitterness and be a cause for international ill will and
future wars.
Seventh. We have had impressive evidence of a strong anti-war
party in Japan prior to the war, led by Christian people; and that
these people are praying for the termination of the war and the
9220 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
establishment of an international relation based upon good will and
cooperation. We believe that unfounded agitation is short-sighted
and detrimental to both the present and the future well-being of our
country and to our international relations.
Eighth. We believe that now is the time for sanity in our approach
to this matter. We believe that the Govermnent should be diligent
in ferreting out disloyalty; but we believe that this process should go
on persistently and quietly and without agitation of the public with
false issues to the detriment of war-time industry and social well-
being. Let us got on with the main job.
Ninth. We believe that the question of the location whether in
California oi elsewhere of the American-Japanese should be set aside
until war is over and tempers have cooled. It is quite possible that
the question will largely solve itself. We know many of these people
realized after it was too late that they should not have settled as a
group. We believe that a dispersal will take place naturally with
each succeeding generation. We believe that an understanding
policy, marked by coopeiation and appreciation, will produce a solu-
tion that will be sound, valuable, and happy.
We m"ge thoughtful deliberation on these propositions by our fellow
citizens. Inflamed passion should not be permitted to lead lis into
acts which, later, we will regret. We deny that tho -Japanese race is
incapable of civilization. Any shortcomings may be our failure to
exercise sound relations with them. Ultimately they must take their
place among tha United Nations or be permanent outcasts and the
standing cause of war. We urge that, even while waging war, we
employ these processes by which to speed sound relations, good will
and peace.
And it is signed by E. G. Farnham, executive secretary of the
federation.
There are then documents which were drawn up and passed by the
federation's executive council on hate and race prejudice, dealing with
the Japanese question.
There is also another document attached which was passed by the
Church Federation of Los Angeles, its executive council, and also
endorsed by the Church Council of Southern California.
That is signed by Alphonzo E. Bell, president. Church Federation
of Los Angeles, Dr. Donald H. Tippett, president, Southern California
Council of Churches, and E. C. Farnham, executive secretary.
There is also a pamphlet attached headed, "Slap the Jap" which is
published by the Home Front Commandos, Inc., A. J. Harder, presi-
dent, and Edward Keelen, vice president, 607 Nicolaus Building,
Sacramento, Calif.
I respectfully submit these, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. The other documents will be received as exhibits.
(The documents referred to were marked "Eidsath Exhibit No. 1")
Mr, Steedman. Do you have any additional statement you would
like to make at this time?
Mr. EiDSATH. No, sir; I have no additional statement to make.
Mr. CosTELLO. Any questions by members of the committee?
Mr. MuNDT. Do all the churches of Los Angeles belong to this
church federation?
Mr. EiDSATH. I should think that the majority of them belong.
There are small denominations which do not belong but the majority
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9221
of the Protestant bodies do belong to the Church Federation of Los
Angeles.
Mr. MuNDT. And the statement you have read has been approved
by all the members of the Church Federation?
Mr. EiDSATH. No; that is contained in the document itself in the
opening paragraph, that it has not been so approved.
Mr. MuNDT. It represents then the opinion of the officers of the
association rather than the opinion of the membership?
Mr. EiDSATH. There are two other documents which have been
approved by the legally constituted bodies, executive bodies of both
the Southern California Church Council and the Church Federation.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. I notice in the statement, where 3^ou are itemizing
various points that you bring out, the matter of the location of the
Japanese after the war.
I might state for your information and for the purposes of the
record, that this committee has not gone into the question of the
handling of the Japanese in the post-war era.
We are only interested in the conduct of the Japanese while in the
relocation centers and particularly with regard to any possible sub-
versive activities on the part of the Japanese.
You made a statement to the effect that the Government should be
diligent in ferreting out disloyalty among the Japanese. Do you have
any direct information at all indicating the officers in charge of the
W. R. A. camps have been diligent in trying to ferret out the disloyal
Japanese?
Mr. EiDSATH. I do not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Evidence has been introduced before this committee
which indicates that that is one of the things which the War Reloca-
tion Authority has not done, and not only have they not been diligent
in trying to ferret out the disloyal Japanese, but have actually been
negligent in that regard.
That is one of the criticisms that has been leveled by this com-
mittee against the War Relocation Authority.
Also in one of your points, you referred to the matter of criticism
of the War Relocation Authority, recommendmg that the Authority
should not be criticized; but in the very thmg which you are urging
the Government do, that is, be diligent in seeking out the disloyal
Japanese, in effect you are criticizing the W. R. A. as properly you
should do in view of the fact they have failed to do that very thing.
How many Japanese actually belong to the Protestant churches
which churches might be members of the Church Federation of Los
Angeles? Do you have any knowledge as to the number?
Mr. EiDSATH. I could not give you the statistics now, but I could
obtain them if the committee wishes to find that out.
Mr. CosTELLO. I would like to have the figure as to how many
Japanese actually belong to the Christian denominations. You
haven't any rough estimate at this moment as to the percentage?
Mr. Allen Hunter. May I answer that question?
Mr. CosTELLo. Yes.
Mr. Hunter. From Prof. E. K. Strong's book called Japanese
in California, at page 182, he states that the first generation preferred
Buddhism to Christianity, 77 percent and the reverse was the case
with the United States born Japanese, 39 percent preferring Buddhism
9222 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
and 47 percent of the males and 56 of the females preferring
Christianity. That is just a little over 51 percent of the American
citizens of Japanese ancestry preferring Christianity.
Mr. CosTELLO. But you haven't the actual numbers of Japanese
who are members of Christian churches?
Mr. Hunter. For the State?
Mr. CosTELLO. That is correct.
Mr. Hunter. I don't. I am trying to remember the number but I
can't remember it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do I understand from your statement that the
Church Federation of Los Angeles is not in favor of any of the Japanese
being returned to the Pacific coast for the duration of the war?
Mr. EiDSATH. The position we have felt was the wisest would be
that while they may have the legal right to return, it may not be wise
to return at this time.
Mr. Costello. When you say they have a "legal right," what do
you mean?
Mr. EiDSATH. That is constitutionally as a citizen they may have
the right unless barred by militaiy necessity or martial law — they
might have the right to be any place where any other citizens were.
Mr. Costello. In other words you feel as we do that the Army
authorities had the right to remove any persons whom they thought
should be removed from a military area such as the Pacific coast?
Mr. EiDSATH. I am not in a position to say whether they had or not.
I don't know enough about the law but the Church Federation and the
Presbyterian Church took this position at the time of the evacuation,
that we believe a limited evacuation of those who are disloyal or
thought to be disloyal should be removed and that those who were loyal
and would work, perhaps at farming under proper supervision, could
have stayed.
Air. Costello. Don't you believe it is somewhat difficult to deter-
mine who would be loyal and who would be disloyal in order to deter-
mine who should be evacuated?
Mr. EiDSATH. That would be I suppose very hard to determine in
the case of Germans and Italians as well.
Mr. Costello. Don't you think it would be easier to determine the
subversive activities on the part of Germans and Italians than it
would be on the part of the Japanese?
Mr. EiDSATH. Personally I hardly believe so.
Mr. Costello. Don't you think there is a vast difference between
the natures of the Germans and the Italian people as compared with
the Japanese? Don't you feel that the Japanese are a very emotional
but unexpressive group of people? They do not reveal their inner
emotions in their facial expressions or by outward signs, which I do not
believe is true of other people. And the same thing might be said of
the Chinese, for example, that they do not reveal by their outward
signs as to what their inner thoughts or inner emotions might actually
be, whereas practically all the white races are inclined to be more
expressive and indicate their thoughts by outward signs and sjanbols
without stating their thoughts.
Mr. EiDSATH. My own obversation has been that as I learn to know
them better I learn to understand their expressions — ^that is their
emotional expressions, and I came to think that it was because I knew
the Germans and Italians or the Caucasians, better than the orientals
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTEiS 9223
that I could see — that I could not see the same thmg m the oriental
that I could see m the Caucasian.
Mr, CosTELLO. You have had some experience with the Japanese
people, have you?
Mr. EiDSATH. With the Japanese and with the Chinese.
Mr. CosTELLo. What is the nature of that experience?
Mr. EiDSATH. I have gone to school with some of them. ,
Mr. CosTELLO. Was that school in this country?
Mr. EiDSATH. In this country; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you been to Japan?
Mr. EiDSATH. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. And you never dealt with the Japanese people
directly?
Mr. EiDSATH. No; except as I have in religious work.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have a church here in Los Angeles?
Mr. EiDSATH. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have any Japanese members of your
congregation?
Air. EiDSATH. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Steedman, do you have any other questions?
Mr. Steedman. No, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Eberharter?
Mr. Eberharter. I understand, Reverend, from your statement
that you read, that at the present time the position of the federation
is that none of these Japanese that were removed from the Pacific
coast area should be returned to the Pacific coast during the war.
Mr. EiDSATH. Well, the statement, I believe, is that we do not
believe it wise to bring them back during the war, although they
may have the legal right to come back.
Mr. Eberharter. I think that is the gist of your statement with
regard to that particular subject.
Does your federation, or the federation that you represent, feel that
it would be all right to release the evacuees from the relocation centers
so they might circulate freely in the eastern part of the country as
well as the Midwest?
Mr. EiDSATH. So far as I know the opinion of the federation it is
that it would be best to get them dispersed into constructive activ-
ities where they could give their contribution, wherever it is possible
to have them, go out — that is the loyal Japanese to go out of the
relocation camps and take part in constructive activities which would
be helpful to the country.
Mr. Eberharter. Can you tell the committee why there is any
diflVrcntiation in the mind'^ of the church federation as to why they
should not be allowed to come back to the Pacific coast but yet
allowed to circulate on the eastern coast or in the central part of the
country?
A 'r. EiDSATH. Well, there has been a great deal of newspaper dis-
cussion on this subject which has been detrimental, it seems to me,
or it has been conducive to build up an anti-Japanese sentiment, thus
barring their return.
There is an attached pamphlet to the document which indicates
that there are organizations which would promptly go a long ways
in opposing such a return and it might result in unpleasant experiences
which would bar a more sane return later on.
9224 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Eberharter. Don't you think there is some inherent danger
that the same thing may occur in other sections of the country aside
from, the Pacific coast? A bad feehng may be aroused by numbers
of these Japanese locating in certain sections rather heavily — don't
you think there is some danger in that?
Mr. EiDSATH. Well, there might be danger. I am certainly not
omniscient as far as the situation obtains all around the countrv.
I believe that where there would be no or very little opportunity
for direct contact with their own people it would be all right. Sup-
pose some subversive individual did get out where there was little
opportunity for contact with his own people, then there would be no
danger to the community in them working in the community.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, Reverend, in almost every community in
the United States there are certain valuable, strategic installations;
don't you think there might be an element of danger in allowing
Japanese free access to that type of installation?
Mr. EiDSATH. I don't think there would be any danger from loyal
Japanese.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, of course, if there is no danger from loyal
Japanese in the central part of the United States, there is no danger
from loyal Japanese on the Pacific coast.
Mr. EiDSATH. I do not believe there would be any danger from the
loyal Japanese on the Pacific coast any more than there is danger of
having them loose in the Hawaiian Islands, which are much closer to
Japan, and there I understand they are loose.
Mr. Eberharter. So, your main reason for the differentiation
between the central part of the country and the Pacific coast area,
is because of the feeling in the minds of the American people against
the Japanese in general, which exists on the Pacific coast and perhaps
may not exist in the central part of the country?
Mr. EiDSATH. Referring to the loyal element of the Japanese, I
would say that the differentiation would be from the psychological
angle.
Mr. Eberharter. And that is really what you fear, the psy-
chological angle?
Mr. EiDSATH. Well, I fear it might be taken advantage of by cer-
tain groups which have expressed themselves very strongly in opposi-
tion to it and it may prevent a better adjustment later on.
Mr. Eberharter. Just one other thing I would like to ask you:
You recall. I believe, that it is difficult on the part of the average
American to understand the Japanese ideology and psychology,
speaking generally, do you not?
(No response.)
Mr. Eberharter. Unless they have had some experience with the
Japanese people?
Mr. EiDSAiH. Well, the same difficulty would arise with a strange
group. The same difficulty would be present there.
It was a little diflficult for me to understand a Greek when I first
met a Greek.
Mr. Eberharter. Just one more question and I will be through.
You feel that it just as easy to understand the Japanese people as it
is to understand European peoples?
Mr. EiDSATH. I can only say that I have found it as easy.
Mr. Eberharter. Thank you very much.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9225
Mr. CosTELLO. You have also indicated you haven't had much
experience with the Japanese people; isn't that true?
Mr. EiDSATH. I wouldn't say a great deal; 1 have had some
experience.
Mr. CosTELLO. ^^^lat has been the nature of your experience?
Mr. EiDSATH. I have gone to school with them; I have worked
with some of them in committees. I have worked with some of
them in the Presbyteria of Los Angeles.
Mr. CosTELLO. How many were in school with you at the time
you were in school?
Mr. EiDSATH. Well, in theological seminary I think we had out of
a student bod}'' of about 100, I think we had about 10 at one time.
Mr; MuNDT. Just to clear up one point in your testimony in re-
sponse to the question asked by my colleague as to your, reason why
you felt the Japanese could better be released to the central or eastern
part of the United States than the Pacific coast.
I believe you said one reason you had for feeling that way was
because there would be little opportunity for Japanese to contact or
communicate, with their fellow nationals if they were located in the
central part of the country.
I am not sure that you want that to go as one of your reasons
because under the existing circumstances the best place in the world
to put a Japanese evacuee now would be on the Pacific coast if the
idea was to prevent him from communicating with his fellow nationals,
because they have all been evacuated out of here.
Mr. EiDSATH. I think I said on questioning later on that as far as
the loyal Japanese was concerned, there certainly would be no danger
of releasing them on the Pacific coast- — there would be no more danger
than releasing them in the central part of the United States or eastern
United States.
Mr. MuNDT. That part of your testimony, I thinlv, represented
what you really wanted to leave with the committee?
Mr. EiDSATH. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Rather than the other idea?
Mr. EiDSATH. I thinlv that is true.
Mr. MuNDT. I wanted to clear that up for you.
Mr. Steedman. Would you mind stating to the committee what
other organizations you belong to other than those you have given us?
Mr. Eids\th. Well, politically I am listed with the Democratic
Party as a Democrat.
I belong to the Presbyterian Church of the United States of America.
In the civilian service in Los Angeles I am an evacuation oflScer.
Mr. Steedman. Are you a member of the Fellowship of Recon-
ciliation?
Air. EiDSATH. I am not and never have been. I know many of the
men in the fellowship but I have never been a member and I am not
now.
Mr, Steedman. Directing your attention to the prepared state-
ment that you read, did Dr. Farnham consult you when he was
writing the statement?
Mr. EiDSATH. There were several of us consulted on that statement,
Mr. Steedman. Were you consulted?
Mr. EiDSATH. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And who else was consulted?
9226 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. EiDSATH. The Reverend Mr. Norman Taylor, who is present
here, was consulted.
Since part of this was done under the commission on race relations,
racial groups within the federation, which is a commission under my
department, the Reverend Mr. Taylor knows more about the number
that were actually consulted with relation to this statement.
Mr. Steedman. And this statement was never submitted to the
church membership for approval of the various churches?
Mr. EiDSATH. No'; it says no in the document itself.
Mr. Steedman. It simply represents the opinion of the leaders of
the church federation, isn't that right?
Mr. EiDSATH. We state in the document we believe it represents a
fair interpretation of the views of the church.
Mr. Steedman. But the church members themselves have never
had an opportunity to pass on it or vote on it, have they?
Mr. EiDSATH. Not on this document; no.
Mr. Steedman. I have no further questions.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you very much. Reverend, for your testi-;
mony here. «
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Steedman. The next witness is Rev. Kirby Page.
TESTIMOJJY OF KIRBY PAGE, VICE CHAIRMAN, FELLOWSHIP OF
RECONCILIATION
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you please state your name to the reporter?
Mr. Page. Kirby Page.
Mr. Steedman. What is your present address?
Mr. Page. La Habra, Calif.
Mr. Steedman. And where were you born?
Mr. Page. Texas.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. Page. 1890.
Mr. Steedman. Wliere did you attend school?
Mr. Page. Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa.
Mr. Steedman. Were you at one time editor of the magazine known
as World Tomorrow?
Mr. Page. Yes; for 8 years.
Mr. Steedman. What was the background of the magazine known
as the World Tomorrow?
Mr. Page. The World Tomorrow is a religious journal attempting
to interpret Christianity in terms of social relationships.
Mr. Steedman. Have you had any connection with the Garland
Fund?
Mr. Page. No.
Mr, Steedman. Do you know what the Garland Fund is?
Mr. Page. Oh, "yes. . , , ^
Mr. Steedman. Will you explain to the committee what the Gar-
land Fund is? , ^ .,„•,.<. x • •
Mr. Page. I will do that, sir. But would it be all right it 1 inquire
if i am supposed to be talking about the Japanese or to give my
personal history? It would be all right, Mr. Chairman, I don't mind
answering the question, but the time is gomg pretty fast and it will
soon be up.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9227
Now, if you want to use the time this way, it is all right with me.
Mr. CosTELLO. The only purpose of the question is to learn some-
thing of your background with relation to what you are going to
testify to.
Mr. Page. I don't think the Garland Fund has anything to do
with it.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I am simply trying to give the com-
mittee the benefit of Dr. Page's background, so the committee will be
able to evaluate his testimonv.
Mr. Page. O. K.
Mr. Steedman. And if he will be so kind as to answer the questions
I am certain the committee will be glad to give the witness every op-
port unity of making a detailed statement here today.
Mr. Page. Any question you want to ask me about the Garland
Fund insofar as I have an answer, 1 will give it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe the information regarding the Gar-
land Fund would be of any value to the committee in view of the fact
the witness stated he is not a member of the organization? The Gar-
land Fund would not have any relation to the witness' background ii
he is not a member or has not been a member?
Mr. Page. That is the point — I have not been a member nor am I
now.
Mr. MuNDT. May I inquire. Dr. Page, are you here today in an
individual capacity or do you represent somebody?
Mr. Page. I am representing the Fellowship of Reconciliation, sir,
and there is an official document here to that effect.
Mr. MuNDT. You are president of that association?
Mr. Page. Vice chairman they call it - that is right.
Air. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, may I ask Dr. Page about other
organizations of which he has been a member or is a member at the
present time?
Air. Page. Please.
Mr. Steedman. Were you ever a member of the National Council
Committee on Militarism and Education?
Mr. Page. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And what is the nature of that organization?
Mr. Page. It was an organization for the purpose of keeping edu-
cation in the United States democratic and not controlled by the
military.
Mr. Steedman. Were you opposed to military training in the various
schools in the United States?
Mr. Page. I am opposed to military training in civilian schools;
not in n'ilitary schools.
Mr. Steedman. And that was the purpose of the National Com-
mittee on Militarism and Education?
Mr. Page. That is right. \\'e said we didn't want the civilian
schools to be military schools; that militarism ought to be taught in
military'' schools.
Mr. Steedman. That was one of the committees that was working
to abolish the R. O. T. C. in the various schools and colleges in the
countr}^?
Mr. Page. That is right, in civilian institutions.
Mr. Steedman. Were you ever a member of the Peace Patriots?
Mr. Page. I don't — I know what the Peace Patriots are but I
don't know whether there is a membership in it or not. But I am
9228 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
sympathetic with them whether there is an actual membership hst.
I don't know about that but I am certainly sympathetic with them.
The Peace Patriots was a group that said we ought to make heroes
out of our civilians as well as out of our soldiers.
The Peace Patriotis were the nonmilitary heroes. I think it is a
good idea.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Robert Morss Lovett?
Mr. Page. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Were you ever associated with Dr. Lovett?
Mr. Page. No; except I have sat down in rooms lil^e this with him.
I have had no official connection with him at all.
Mr. Steedman. You have never been on any committees with Dr.
Lovett?
Mr. Page. I don't know. I have never, so far as I can recall — I
have never sat in a committee meeting with him. Now, it is entirely
possible that he might have been a member of a committee that I was.
I am not trying to evade you. I have no recollection of being on a
committee with him.
I wouldn't mind because I like him very much.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Rose Schneiderman?
Mr. Page. No; I don't know her. I heard her speak once but I
don't know her.
Mr. vSteedman. I would hke to ask you once more if you have ever
publicly solicited contributions for the Garland Fund for use in aiding
the Chinese Communists?
Mr. Page. The answer is, "No."
Mr. Steedman. Did j'^ou insert an ad in the World Tomorrow along
with Dr. Robert Morss Lovett and Rose Schneiderman, soliciting
contributions?
Mr. Page. For the war?
Mr. Steedman. For the Chinese Communists.
Mr. Page. The answer is, "No."
Mr. Steedman. What was the ad in connection with?
Mr. Page. -It was an ad where there was a strike in Hong Kong
and some of our friends said that the labor movement in China needed
strengthening.
I believe in organized labor. I have believed in it for 20 years. I
believe in it now and I expect to believe in it as long as I live. There-
fore, I thought the labor movement in China ought to be supported
and the advertisement had nothing to do with communism at all. It
was about organized labor. Is that clear?
Mr. Steedman. Very clear. Have you ever contributed to the
Commonwealth College in Arkansas?
Mr. Page. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. How much have you contributed?
Mr. Page. Oh, $5 a year, or $10 a year. Not more than $10 in a
year. My contributions are necessarily small; sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you visited the Commonwealth College?
Mr. Page. I have not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you approve of what was taught at the Com-
monwealth College?
Mr. Page. The answer is yes and no. I approve of some of the
things they taught. I disapproved of some. I approved of their
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES • 9229
support of organized labor. I disapproved of any effort — any en-
couragement of communism.
Mr. Steedman. You didn't approve the communistic teachings in
the Commonwealth College, did you?
Mr. Page. Don't get me wrong there. You see I have been opposed
to communism, publicly all these years and written, some of my
friends say to approaching ad nauseum about it, sir.
Mr. Steedman. But when you contributed to the Commonwealth
College — —
-'O^
Mr. Page. When I sent the money there was no charge it was
communistic. Later when I heard the charge that it was communistic,
I sent them no more contributions.
Mr. Chairman, this is all very interesting.
Mr. Steedman. We just want to lay a background for your testi-
mony here.
Mr. Page. You will leave us a little time, won't you?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Page. It will be interesting to see the proportion of time we
are going to use on the Japanese question.
Mr. Steedman. I think the committee will be very fair, and allow
you what time you need.
Mr. Page. Go right ahead, I don't mind answering.
Mr. Steedman. Were you ever a member of the American League
Against War and Fascism?
Mr. Page. I was not.
Mr. Steedman. Were you connected with it in any way?
Mr. Page. I was not. As a matter of fact as editor of the World
Tomorrow, I lost a good many friends because of my attack upon that
organization.
One of the biggest controversies I had as editor of the magazine was
the contmuous attack upon that organization. I was not only not a
member of it but I was opposed to it, and that is a matter of written
record, Mr. Chairman.
I think our friend, Mr. Steedman, would save time if he would
remind me just wiiat he fs reading there.
Mr. Costello. I believe counsel for the committee has merely a
few notes in relation to your background that he would like to bring
out and verify before permitting you to appear as a witness.
Mr. Page. That is all right.
Mr. Costello. Actually what we are doing here as a committee,
is simply gathering evidence regarding the Japanese situation. Now,
the various witnesses who come before us we wish to identify their
background in order that we may evaluate the opinions set forth by
them and then present that testimony to the other members of the
committee in ^\'ashington so when they read the testimony they will
be also able to evaluate the worth of the testimony regarding the
subject at hand.
Now, with reference to the time element. I believe Mr. Steedman
made arrangements with you whereby you would have 20 minutes,
or something of that sort, but this testimony is preliminary and you
will be allowed full opportunity to present your side of the matter.
Air. Page. As a matter^of fact I don't want to be misunderstood.
I don't mind answering the questions. I have tried to be forthright.
Mr. Steedman. Have you^ever visited Russia?
62626 — 43— vol. 15 26
9230 • UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTEiS
JVir. Page. Once in 1926 for 3 weeks and I never went back.
I might say that I visited 34 other countries beside Russia.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was Japan one of those countries?
Mr. Page. Yes, sir; once in 1918 and once in 1930.
Mr. CosTELLO. How much time did you spend in Japan on those
occasions?
ivir. Page. I spent about a week the first time and about 10 days
the second time.
Mr. Steedman. Dr. Page, we can save time if you will answer this
generalized question: How many antiwar or so-called pacifist organiza-
tions have you been connected with?
Mr. Page. A great many. For 27 years I have been opposed to
war as a Christian clergyman. All I understand about my religion
teaches me that war as a method is wrong. I reached that conclusion
back in 1916 and have held it ever since and therefore as a clergyman
and public speaker, and as a writer, I have expressed my convictions
innumerable times.
I have worked through agencies that were antiwar. I have not
worked through communistic agencies that for other purposes were
against a particular war.
I am not against a particular war. I am against the method of war
in general.
Now, I have said that, I suppose, from a thousand platforms and^
in about 20 books, so by this time it ought to be pretty clear I am
opposed to war.
. xY. Steedman. Do you belong to any other political organizations?
Mr. Page. No.
Mr. Steedman. Socialist, for instance?
Mr. Page. I am now.
Mr. Steedman. You are a member now?
Mr. Page. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Have you always been?
Mr. Page. No; about 7 or 8 years — maybe 9 — let me see; it was
about — well, within 10 years.
Mr. Mundt. May I ask, Doctor, as a Member of Congress, I
don't like war either, but if you had been sitting in my seat on the
Monda,y after Pearl Harbor and voting on the declaration of war,
would you have voted "Aye"?
Mr. Page. No; I would not have voted for a declaration of war.
I would have voted against it. I would vote against a declaration
of war against any nation at any time, sir.
Mr. Costello. Your position in opposition to war is that you are
opposed to all wars under any circumstances?
Mr. Page. Completely, completely so.
Mr. Costello. And would that apply to personal combat between
individuals?
Mr. Page. It would apply to war between individuals; yes.
Mr. Costello. In other words you do not believe in the right
of even an individual to protect his own person and his own property
against the aggression of some other person or individual?
Mr. Page. Mr. Chairman, I only speak for myself and I am not
talking about what other people ought to do, but as far as I am
concerned, I think the method of war is wrong always, under every
condition and, therefore, I would not keep a firearm in my house; I
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9231
wouldn't learn how to use one; I wouldn't have one; and I wouldn't
use one under any condition.
I think the whole method of war is wrong.
Mr. CosTELLO. But you would keep a lock on your front door?
Mr. Page. No. As a matter of fact we live in the country 3 miles
away from the village. We have lived there for 8 years and the door
has not been locked in 8 years.
Mr. CosTELLO. You are fortunate.
• Air. MuNDT. I have no quarrel with your convictions about war
or peace, but I am going to pursue it a little further.
Suppose the Japanese instead of bombing Pearl Harbor had bombed
Los Angeles and you had been a Member of Congress, would you
have voted against a declaration of war?
Mr. Page. I would not vote for war under any circumstances
against any nation at any time, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Let me ask this question, Doctor: Would you have
fought back against the Japanese if they had proceeded to invade
this country?
Mr. Page. With arms? No.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words you believe after the Japanese
attacked Pearl Harbor, the United States should not have fired a
gun; should not have sent out an airplane; should not have had a
man in uniform; and we should have left ourselves wide open to the
Japanese to proceed with all their military power and force at their
disposal to invade the United States and to occupy every section of
this country with their troops?
Mr. Page. Mr. Chairman, you do not express my point of view.
Mr. CosTELLO. You said you were opposed to war and you said
you would not vote for war under any circumstances, and that you
would not take up arms against any nation.
Now, what I am asking is, Would you fight against an aggressive
nation, against a country invading this country?
Mr. Page. And I said I wouldn't fight against any nation.
Mr. CosTELLO. And I prefaced my question with: If the Japanese
had invaded the Hawaiian Islands and taken the Islands and then
proceeded to invade the United States with all the force at the"r dis-
posal, if you were in charge of a naval vessel you would not fire a
gun or in charge of the Army, you would not fire a gun; you would
not in any way attempt to stop the aggression of the Japanese
Nation in trying to conquer this country.?
Mr. Page. The answer is that a person holding my point of view
would not be in command of a naval vessel and never get elected to
Congress, and a person holding my point of view would never be
President of the United States.
I am not speaking for the group when I make these statements; I
am speaking for myself.
Mr. CosTELLO. But during all the years you have held this point of
view, vou have been preaching from your pulpit, been giving lectures
throughout the country, and trying to convert people in this country
to that point of view; isn't that correct?
Mr. Page. May I comment? If I had succeeded, we would have
prevented the war.
Mr. CosTELLO. You mean to say if everybody in this country had
been completely disarmed and we had not a single gun at Pearl
9232 "UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Harbor or a single battleship at Pearl Harbor, that the Japs never
would have bombed it?
Mr. Page. On the condition that the reason we disarmed was that
we held this conviction; because if we held this conviction we would
have conducted ourselves in relation to Japan in such a fashion we
would have kept a liberal, nonmilitary government in Japan and
there would not have been that aggression in Japan.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, you feel if we had never had an
army or a navy in the United States of America, there would be no
military power in Japan?
Mr. Page. No; 1 said if the people of the United States had dis-
armed for the reasons that they believed — the convictions that I
hold
Mr. Costello. All right; if those had been the convictions under
which we disarmed, you believe there never would have been a
military power in Japan and no military force in Japan?
Mr. Page. It is my deep conviction the military regime would not
have been in control of the Japanese Government and therefore the
Japanese Government would not have been aggressive.
Mr. Costello. And do you believe the same thmg to be true of
Germany?
Mr. Page. Exactly so.
Mr. Costello. You believe if the United States was totally paci-
fistic and totally disarmed, for the purpose of promoting a program of
peace for all the world, that Hitler would never have attempted to
militarize the German people and develop the military power which
he did?
Mr. Page. Mr. Chairman, in that event he would not have been in
power. He would have been simply an agitator on a soap box because
the thing that put him in power was the condition and attitude of the
rest of the world.
Mr. Costello. And you think we could have changed world poli-
cies by totally disarming?
Mr. Page. I think it would, even if we had adopted total pacifism,
it would take us several centuries to convince the world.
You know I didn't bring this up.
Mr. Costello. But I think it is of material value to the record to
know the background of the witnesses who appear before the com-
mittee; and this viewpomt, frankly, is rather astounding to me be-
cause I can't possibly conceive of any American citizen, who has any
love for this country, not being willing to try to protect this country
from being overrun by an aggressive militarist from some foreign land
who wants to come in and dominate and assiune dictatorial power
over it. ■
I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever if Japan were to invade
this country, and we were not to resist the invasion, that this country
would be under their dominion for the next 20 centuries and we
would not have any religious groups.
Your own churches would be eliminated. We would be under the
heel of a foreign and pagan power that would not permit us to exist in
the manner in which we exist now.
I think those things are worth fighting for and worth protectmg;
and if somebody attempts to steal my watch, I think I have a right
to attempt to protect myself against him stealing my watch; and if
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9233
some military power attempts to steal my country, if I have any love
for it at all, I would want to protect my country against such a thing.
It seems to me any normal human being would do the same thing.
If a man broke into your house to steal your wife, it would seem to me
that a man would fight to protect his wife and that same doctrine
ought to applj'^ to the love of country; and the individuals in this
country who enjoy the blessings of the country ought to fight against
invaders.
Mr. Page. I don't want to continue this longer than you w^nt to;
but since you provoked a reply, may I give it?
Mr. CosTELLO. I would be glad to hear your reply.
Mr. Page. !My comment is that we also want to protect and defend
the country. That is the reason we are opposed to militarism. We
think that militarism is an enemy of democracy and if a country
becomes militarized it will cease to be democratic.
It is not only in terms of democracy; it is in terms of other huma
values. We believe that overcoming evil with goodness is sounder
policy than resisting evil with evU, and we have no doubt at all that
if the policy which we represent had been adopted generally by the
people of the country our attitude toward Japan and Germany and
Italy would have been such we could have lived m peace with them
and in no danger of invasion.
Mr. CosTELLO. There is only one conclusion I can draw from your
statement, and that is the only way to fight crime is to eliminate our
police force and thereby eliminate crime.
Mr. Page. No; the best way to eliminate crime is to remove the
causes.
Mr. CosTELLO. And you think by removing the guns and by re-
moving the Army and by removing the Navy from this country, you
will remove the causes of war?
Mr. Page. No. You remember I said at least six times that I am
a,ssuming that disarmament would do good. If it represented just a
negative attitude of laying down the arms, .it would simply invite
aggression, but if the reason, sir, that we put down our arms was that
we had so much goodwill toward the Japanese, toward the Germans,
toward the Italians and were putting that good will into our practice,
then I for one would rather run the risk of trusting good will than I
would to run the risk of trusting dynamite.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, you think as far as Japan is con-
cerned if we had laid down our guns and announced to Japan it is not
because we are setting aside a program of aggression that we are
laying down our guns, but because we love our neighbors and that
because we told the Japanese we love our neighbors and therefore not
arming ourselves, that thereupon they would desist from any desire
to take the Philippines or to attack Pearl Harbor or any other part of
the world?
Mr. Page. Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't say that immediately they
would desist from all evil desires because, as a clergyman who has had
considerable experience
Mr. CosTELLo. Apparently we have very divergent views so we
had better leave them at this point.
Mr. Page. You will let me remind you I did not bring this up.
Mr. CosTELLO. It was an interrogation going into your background
for the benefit of the committee.
9234 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Page. I might say I don't mind this a bit; it is perfectly all
right with me.
Mr. Eberharter. I should think the good Doctor would be pretty
/Well up on liis subject and prepared to argue it.
Mr. Steedman. Are you now or have you ever been a member of
the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr. Page. I have been for about 20 years and I am now and I am
proud of it.
Mr. Steedman. In the Los Angeles branch?
Mr. Page. Yes; and proud of it. I wouldn't mind having that
widely publicized.
Mr. Steedman. Are you a member of the National Association for
the Advancement of Colored People?
Mr. Page. I am not. Sure, I have been in the past. If I am not
now it is simply an oversight, but I believe in it.
Mr. Steedman. You believe in what they are trying to do?
Mr. Page. I believe in the general procedure. I don't say I believe
in everything they have done, but I believe in the idea.
Mr. Steedman. Do you approve of the leadership of the National
Association for the Advancement of Colored People?
Mr. Page. In the sense that I approve of the leadership of Mr.
Roosevelt. I agree with some of the things he does and disagree
with others.
I approve of some of the things he does. You don't approve every-
thing that an organization does when you join it. If you did you
couldn't be a member of any organization on earth.
Mr. Steedman. Are vou now or have vou ever been a member of
the National Council for the Prevention of War?
Mr. Page. I am now and have been for years and glory in it.
That is one of the numerous ones, sir, I was telling you I belonged
to. •
Mr. Steedman. If you were of draft age at the present time would
you be a conscientious objector?
Mr. Page. Mr. Chairman, if I w^ere of draft age at the present
time I would avail myself of the legal and patriotic provisions pro-
vided in the Selective Service Act and would select the third form of
national service.
Mr. Steedman. Will you be a little more specific?
Mr. Page. I will be more specific, but I spoke accurately.
The National Selective Service Act has three courses open to a
young man of fighting age — three loyal, legal, patriotic actions.
First, he may accept service as a combat officer or private. That
is, he may take combat service.
Second, he may ask for and obtain service in a noncombat unit —
the Medical Corps; or, third, he may select the service of national
importance as designated by the Government of the United States
under the civil service.
The third is what I would select.
Mr. Steedman. That is commonly known as a conscientious
objector?
Mr. Page. Of course I am a conscientious objector and have been
since 1916, therefore, that is what I would do.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, at this point I would like to intro-
duce into the record a memorandum on the letterhead of the Fellow-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9235
ship of Roconciliation, 141 1 West Twenty-second Street, Los Angeles,
Calif., atklressed to:
To Whom It Mm; Concern:
This is to certify that Kirby Page is a member of the Fellowship of Reconcilia-
tion, and is hereby authorized to represent said organization before the Dies
Committee meeting in Los Angeles, Calif.
That is signed: "Glenn E. Smiley, secretary. Southwest Pacific
Area."
I would like for that to be included in the record at this point.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Steedman. I have no further questions of Dr. Page at this
time.
You may continue with your statement, Doctor.
Mr. Page. Thank you.
Mr. CosTELLO. Proceed.
• Mr. Page. Mr. Chairman, I would like to briefly address myself
to one aspect of the Japanese situation and that is the policy of the
W. R. A. in releasing from the centers internees under certain specified
conditions.
If that is permissible I would like to address myself to that.
I would like to state first of all what I understand to be two legal
principles in American law and then two facts and then draw a conclu-
sion from the principles and the facts.
The two legal principles are, first, that an American citizen is
assumed to be innocent until he is proved guilty after due process of
law.
That is, as I understand it, basic in American law.
The second principle in American law is that when an individual
has by a court of his peers been proved guilty of a crmie, he alone is
to be punished.
Now, the two principles stand out in clarity when you state the
contrast. The contrast of the first one would be that the individual
is assumed to be guilty until he is proved to be innocent.
Ours is the opposite of that. The individual is assumed to be inno-
cent until he is proved guilty.
The opposite of the second principle would be that the family of the
guilty man would be punished as well as the guilty man.
Now, as I understand it, our procedure is that the man is assumed
to be innocent until proved guilty and that he alone must be punished
for his crimes.
Those I believe to be principles that are relevant to this discussion.
The two facts that I would like to state are these:
First, that some seventy thousand, more or less, American citizens
are now interned in the Japanese relocation centers — that is citizens
up to approximately sixty-five or seventy thousand.
The second fact is that, as I understand it to be a fact, that the
W. R. A. (loos not release members, internees, or members of the
camp for outside life unless and until — unless the F. B. I. has made
a formal written declaration that the man under the American system
is innocent; that he has not been proved guilty. There are no charges
against him. There are no justifiable suspicions.
In other words, no man goes out of the war relocation centers until
the Government, acting through the F. B. I., says:
So far as we know he is innocent.
9236 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Where did you obtain your information regarding
that?
Mr. Page. From friends in the camps and officers in the camps.
Mr. CosTELLO. The reason for asking that is just the other day a
release appeared in the daily press to the effect that the F. B. I. is'
not consulted regarding any of the evacuees who are being released
from the relocation centers.
Mr. Page. Well, Mr. Chairman, all I can say is that I have been
in, very briefly, 9 out of 10 of the centers and the testimony I had in
all 9 was the same.
Now, they may all have been mistaken but they all told me the
same thing.
Mr. Costello. That is rather strange because the press release was
directly opposite of that, and, frankly, the press release rather sur-
prised us.
However, it was the press release emanating from the authorities
in Washington. It was stated in Washington that the F. B. I. are
not consulted regarding evacuees before they are released.
Mr. Page. If those are the facts, as I believe they are, then my
conclusion is that the present policy of the W. R. A. in releasing under
this safeguard internees for two purposes:
First, for outside employment and, second, for further study and
education, that that policy is sound and deserves the support of
American citizens, and with very great enthusiasm I support the policy
of releasing American citizens who are innocent under our system of
legal justice.
Now, my conviction is that this policy is sound is reinforced by
three other kinds of evidence.
The second bit of evidence is the evidence that comes from the
United States Army.
The United States Army officially believes that a certain portion of
these American citizens of Japanese ancestry are loyal and patriotic
and to prove that the Army believes that these men of Japanese
ancestry, both in the Philippine Islands and in this country, have been
inducted into the United States Army.
Mr. Steedman. You are referring to the Hawaiian Islands, rather
than the Philippines?
Mr. Page. I am sorry, that is a slip of the tongue. I did not mean
the Philippines; I meant Hawaiian Islands. That was a slip of the
tongue.
That is the Hawaiian Island and in this country you have the fact
that the Army has inducted them.
I would like, if it is permissible, to insert into the record, and you
will have to decide, sir, whether it is relevant and germane, an article
which I clipped from this issue of Harper's Magazine that deals with
the problem, and I want, if I may, to read about 10 lines. I won't
read interminably.
Ivir. Costello. Do you want to include all of it in the record?
Mr. Page. The article was written by an officer in the United
States Navy. It is in the June issue of Harper's Magazine.
Mr. Costello. June of this year? '
Mr. Page. Yes, 1943. The title of it is, "The Japanese- Americans
in Hawaii," and the lines that I want to read
Mr. MuNDT. Will you give us the author's name?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9237
Mr. Page. It is Cecil Henry Coggins. '
He is a lieutenant commander in the United States Navy on active
service and the particular lines that I would like to read have to do
with the question of whether the whole group is disloyal or whether
some of them arc loyal and he says that General Emmons, who is
the commanding officer in Hawaii, insisted on establishing the tr.uth
as to the loyalty of the population and the intelligent searching of
their files covering more than 100,000 individuals resulted in 4
conclusions.
1 shall not read them, but I will summarize them.
The first conclusion was that there were some dangerous Japanese
there. The second conclusion was there were some pro-Japanese
sympathy there. The third conclusion, and I will read it:
That b\ their actions an overwhelming majority of Japanese- Americans had
shown hatred of the enemy ana made brilliant records m all the war effort in
which they had been allowed to participate:
4. That not one act of sabotage had been committed in the islands either by
alien Japanese or by the Nisei, consequenth every one of the hun^lreds of rumors
that have circulated in the islands and on the mainland to that effect was proven
definitely false.
Mr. Chairman, that is the end of the quotation. One could go on
longer but I ought not do so.
My second point, you see, in addition to what I believe to be the
policy, that the F. B. I. clears them before they go out, is the fact
that the United States Army receives them.
They accepted volunteers in the Ai'my in Hawaii and Secretary
Stimson said he would accept 1,500 volunteers, but when this article
was written there had been 7,500 volunteers from the young Americans
of Japanese ancestry, and the editor of Harper's Magazine put in a
footnote that the number up to the time the magazine went to press
was 10,000.
That is in the Hawanan Islands — 10,000 citizens of Japanese
ancestry had volunteered for service in combat duty in the United
States Army.
Now, surely that is evidence that ought not to be overlooked.
Now, my third point — first was the F. B. I. and the second was the
Army. Aiy third point supporting my contention is the testimony
that comes from my friends who have known many Japanese over
long periods of time.
I have at least 50 friends who have lived among the Japanese and
worked with them a considerable length of time, many of theni as
missionaries in Japan and others as teachers in agencies — in institu-
tions where there were a good many Japanese students and some of
them as pastors of churches. And in this particular tour which I
have just completed, where I went to 9 out of 10 of the centers —
covering all 10 of them except the one in Wyoming, I talked at length
with Protestant preachers. The fact that I am a clergyman myself
causes me to approach this problem from a religious point of view,
but I had long and unhurried conversations with most of the clergy-
men— the Protestant clergymen in the camps, and the question that
I asked over and over again is the question:
Sir, what is your judgment about the loyalty of these people?
And I am talking now about the American citizens. I am confining
myself to them. I am not talking about the others than the 70,000
9238 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
American citizens. My remarks are addressed entirely to that section
of the problem.
Mr. CosTELLO. Might I interrupt for a question?
In referring to citizens do you also include, Doctor, those Japanese
who were born in this country and educated over a period of years in
Japan?
Mr. Page. Yes; I would include them but with the qualification
that there the doubt in my mind would be considerable and I would
not want to make a blanket assertion that eveiybody who studied in
Japan was necessarily anti-American, but the fact that he did study
in Japan would make me look into his record more carefully.
Mr. CosTELLO. There is a possibility that those educated in Japan
are more likely to be disloyal than the ones educated in the United
States?
Mr. Steedman. May I ask a question at that point?
Mr. CosTELLo. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did you take into consideration the dual citizens?
Mr. Page. You are getting into another problem now. May I say
this, that I talked at length with my friends as to whether they thought
these people, the young Nisei generally were loyal or not and the
testimony I got, without exception, from my friends was that most of
them were loyal. They all said "most." I didn't talk with anybody
who said they were all loyal. I didn't hear one single person say:
'*0h, they are all right."
But I heard at every point in every camp I went that an over-
whelming proportion were loyal.
Now, for myself at the moment I am not interested in the racial
cause. What I am saying is that the ones that are guilty ought to
be treated differently from the ones that are innocent, and the ones
I am talking about now are the ones that, under our system of law,
are still innocent because they have not been adjudged guilty. It is
that group that I believe to be substantial — whether it is 10 percent,
20 percent, 40 percent or 80 percent, doesn't afi"ect the validity of
the argument, because I am only talking about that number.
Air. Steedman. You say you are only referring to the American
citizens of Japanese ancestry?
Mr. Page. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. And I asked you the question, Did your statement
take in the dual citizens — those Japanese who have been registered
with the consulate for dual citiz;enship and who had never renounced
their registration in any way?
Mr. Page. My answer would be a divided answer. I would divide
that group into two divisions: First, the group that voluntarily and
are of mature age, registered themselves. I would put them in the
category, Mr. Chairman, where I said I would put a big question
mark. I would say that group would need to be examined with
great care.
Now, the other group, and it is a substantial group, is the group of
young Niseis in this country who were registered in Japan without
their consent and without their knowledge.
That question came up in conversations in the camps over and over
again and my preacher friends and the people I talked with said:
''We hear all the time the young people say, 'I don't know whether
I am registered or not.' "
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTES 9239
You see, the rogistoring in most cases was done by the elder people
for the children. Now, surely the fact that an older person wanting
to keep tlie ties with Japan before the war would register his son,
surely, that ought not to be held as evidence the son is anti-American,
so I divide my answer, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Just evidence that the parent was complying with
the Japanese law with reference to being a citizen of Japan?
Mr. Page. But, Mr. Chairman, when an American citizen goes to
China and there a son is born, of what land does that son become
a citizen? Of the United States, so
Mr. Eberhardt. That is only on occasions when they are on
official Government business.
Mr. Page. No; take my missionaries, for instance
Mr. Eberharter. Of if they are over there just on a temporary
visa.
Mr. Page. I may be mistaken but this is my judgment.
Take my friends who have gone out there as permanent missionaries.
They went out as young husbands and wives. They settled down
with the expectation of living the rest of their lives there
Islr. Eberharter. I think you are right on that.
Mr. Page. So my answer is that is not unusual; that that is what
we do also and surely that is not proof they are un-American — the
fact that their fathers aodpted the same poicy we adopt when we
are born in the Far East.
So, I would divide the answer. I would say some of them need to
be looked at with great care and others ought to be freed of suspicion
until proved guilty.
I hope I have not used up my time. Will you let me have about 3
minutes more?
Mr. CosTELLO. Take what time you need.
Mr. Page. I would like to sum this up in not more than 3 minutes.
What I want to draw is that if the policy of keeping the innocent
Americans of Japanese ancestry in the camps should be that policy,
that policy should be terminated. The guilty ones should be dealt
with; the innocent should be dealt with differently than the guilty
ones and that number, whatever the proportion is that has not been
adjudged guilty, they should be permitted under the safeguards of
F. B. I. investigation and declaration that they are not guilty; that
there is no evidence that they committed a crime or are disloyal, that
the present policy of permittmg them out should be continued and
should be extended and it should be speeded up for two reasons, be-
cause the effect of a further internment of these people will be dis-
astrous. It is disastrous because it is doing three things to them:
It is bringing them to a sense of hopelessness. They don't see any-
thing ahead. They know they are not wanted back in California.
They know nobody wants them.
One girl said: "I feel as if I had been dropped in a vacuum."
The sense of hopelessness — now, hopelessness is a terrible thing for
human character and when you take 70,000 American citizens, or
wdiat portion of the 70,000 arc innocent, and nevertheless in spite of
their innocence \ou put them in a situation where their charactei's are
deteriorating by the sense of sheer hopelessness and despair, that is
wrong by any test of wrong.
9240 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Now, the second effect upon them is that they have a feeling that
they are victims of raiilv injustice. They beUeve themselves to be
innocent — this group I am talking about, you see, and it is a terrible
thing for American citizens believing themselves to be innocent to be
victims of American governmental processes.
It destroys in them the confidence in the very system they have
been taught to love — many of them in which they believe and for
which they would be willing to die.
They say it is an insufferable thing, an intolerable thing that they,
American citizens, should be victims of American processes.
And the third, it is creating a very great deal of bitterness and for
myself I am convinced that the way to destroy democracy fastest is
to turn American citizens into bitterness against the democratic proc-
ess and the effect of this internment upon these people is making them
bitter — making them doubt the validity of the democratic process;
making them doubt whether this thing is what they were taught.
The other reason I think why we ought to get them out is for the
sake of democracy itself. Democracy differs from totalitarianism.
It differs in fundamental ways. Democracy believes in doing justice
to its own people; totalitarianism does not make any pretention of
dealing justly with the people because that isn't a concept of totali-
tarianism. But the democratic process is based upon justice.
Now, it seems to me if my analysis is sound, and I believe it is
sound or I wouldn't be here, if it is sound, then what we are doing is
undemocratic. What we are doing is very bad for democracy and,
therefore, for the sake of democracy as for the sake of the Japanese
who are innocent, we ought to get them out as fast as we can.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. In the first place, Doctor, I want to say that
this committee certainly has come to no formal conclusion with re-
spect to any charges that may have been made insofar as the opera-
tion of the camps are concerned, or any policy they have pursued.
We are merely now in the process of investigating these centers
and that is the reason we are all happy that your group is here.
I wouldn't want you to think for a moment that this committee is
out with a certain, definite, fixed conclusion in its mind before we
have heard all the testimony.
Mr. Page. I. am glad to hear you say that.
Mr. Eberharter. I am positive about that part of it.
Now, according to your testimony, you certainly do not go on the
basis that all American-born Japanese are loyal to the United States?
Mr. Page. That is right.
Mr. Eberharter. ^ou don't go on that basis?
Mr. Page. No.
Mr. Eberharter. We all know that there are some who are not
loyal to the United States?
Mr. Page. That is right.
Mr. Eberharter. And you also indicated that you believe a
thorough investigation should be made before any person is released
from the relocation centers?
Mr. Page. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Is that correct?
Mr. Page. That is correct.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9241
Mr. Eberharter. I think I can agree with you on every one of
those three propositions without any hesitation whatsoever.
Mr. Page. Good.
Mr. Eberharter. You also beUevc, I think, Doctor, that the bad
Japanese shoukl be segregated from those tliat are what we might
term good Japanese?
Mr. Page, I do; and if I may comment, my friends in the camps
tell me that to a considerable degree that has already been done.
You know there are internment camps in addition to the 10 reloca-
tion centers — there are camps that I think are officially designated as
"mternment camps."
Mr. CosTELLO. And they are for the aliens.
Mr. MuNDT. For Japanese aliens only.
Mr. CosTELLO. The internment camps are for alien and dangerous
Japanese. The relocation centers are the only centers at which the
Japanese are located except the aliens who have been interned in in-
ternment camps.
Mr. Page. May I suggest that is worth checking. I can't prove
it at the moment but my judgment is contrary to that and the reason
I have that opinion is because I have one particular friend, a Japanese
man and his wife that I saw some months before they were, put in the
internment camp. It is my belief that they are American citizens.
Now, I haven't checked it. The man is now in an internment camp
and I think, Mr. Chairman, that is worth investigating.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may be correct in that. They may be Ameri-
can citizens who have mdicated subversive tendencies. Some of that
type may be interned, but it seems to me they could only be interned
through legal process.
Mr. Page. That is my point. They have already done that and
they are taking American citizens out of these camps when they believe
them to be guilty.
Now, if I may refer to an instance — I happened to be in the Gila
River relocation center on one of the nights when the F. B. I. came in
for an extensive raid — that is what, at least, that is what the residents
called it, and that particular night 20 internees were taken out.
Now, I don't have any way of knowing whether any of them or all
of them were American citizens, but I do know they were being taken
out because it happened one of the very nights that I was there. The
F. B. I. did take them out so I would say: "Yes; take them out when
they have been — when there is evidence that they are dangerous."
And I believe that to be the present policy.
Mr. Eberharter. It is one of the purposes of our investigation to
find out what has been done between the good Japanese and the bad
Japanese.
Mr. Page. My judgment, sir, is that separation is going on in the
camps at all times. At least that is what my friends believe to be the
case.
Mr. Eberharter. I have no further questions.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Dillon Myer?
Mr. Page. I don't think I do. The reason I say, "I don't think I
do," is because I go to so many conferences and conventions and meet
so many people that I have always qualified by saying, "I don't think
I have."
So far as I know I do not know him.
9242 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. You referred in your testimony a number of times
to your friends in the camps?
Mr. Page. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you refer to Japanese who are hving in the re-
location centers or to the ' personnel in control of those centers, os-
tensibly?
Mr. Page. Both. I have a great many Japanese friends — I mean
friends of Japanese ancestry in the camps.
I can illustrate that: A good many times in the course of — I made
public addresses, I preach sermons — -I am long on preaching, so when
I go into a camp I would preach and after I would get through a sermon
this happened a good many times:
A man would come up to me and would say: "I met you at As-
silomar."
Now, "Assilomar" means a great deal. That is the place where the
student conferences have been held for the last 20 years, so that a
great many of these people I had known before and I know a good
many of the missionaries and some of the W. R. A. officials and I
speak of my friends in that sense.
Mr. Steedman. Did you know some of the W. R. A. officials prior
to their taking the positions they now have?
Mr. Page. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. ^Aliich officials did you know prior to their being
employed by the W. R. A.?
Mr. Page. The one I knew best was Mr. Joseph Hunter, who is the
director of community activities at Rohwer.
Mr. Steedman. And that is in Arkansas?
Mr. Page. That is in Arkansas. He is a preacher that I used to
know in Little Rock. Before that he had been a missionary in Japan.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Frank Heron Smith?
Mr. Page. I don't think so. His name came up in conversations
all the time in the camps and I know who he is. I certainly don't know
him; I never met him.
Mr. Steedman. How did you obtain permission to visit the camps?
Mr. Page. By invitation of the ministers — the Protestant ministers
in the camps. The procedure by which you get admission to the
camps is upon invitation from some responsible group in the camp.
Mr. Steedman. Did they write you a letter inviting you to go to the
camps?
Mr. Page. Yes, sir; and I gladly accepted.
Mr. Steedman. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have a church here in Los Angeles?
Mr. Page. Mr. Chairman, I do not. For 22 years I have been an
itinerant preacher — preaching constantly but with no local church.
Mr. MuNDT. I have a question I would like to ask.
Dr. Page, you indicated a little agitation at the beginning of this
hearing because you felt you might not be given an opportunity to
have your full say.
Mr. Page. I have had it, thank you; I really had it.
Mr. MuNDT. You feel the hearings are all right?
Mr. Page. I have taken more time than I shoidd.
Mr. MuNDT. I just wanted to have your opinion as to whether
you have bad a fair opportunity to present your views.
Mr. Page. More than fair and I thank vou.
UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9243
Mr. MuNDT. There is some doubt in your mind and some doubt
in the minds of the committee as to whether or not the F. B. I. does
make investigation of the Japanese before they are released?
^^r. Page. There is no doubt in my mind.
!Mr. MuxDT. But there is some doubt in our minds. The facts
show that such investigations are" not made. If that is true, do you
beheve these Japanese shoukl be investigated before being released?
Air. Page. !My answer is "Yes."
!Mr. ]MuNDT. You visited a number of the camps — 9 out of 10,
and on the basis of that experience, do you feel that by and large
"we are going to get better management in these camps if the officials
in charge are folks that had experience with the Japanese or if the
leaders are men who have not had experience with them?
Air. Page. jMy answer would be that the people who have had
experience with the Japanese, everything else being equal, will do a
better job.
Mr. 3kIuNDT. Do you recognize this to be a valid situation: That
the Government of the United States has an obligation to these
Japanese also to see that they are protected if they are out in civilian
life; that they are not picked on by gangs doing them bodily injury
without process of law?
jMr. Page. The answer is "Yes" with a qualification that while I
believe in police action, I don't believe in all forms of police action,
but generally the answer to your question is "Yes."
Mr. MuxDT. But you would feel the police themselves have an
obligation to protect civilian Japanese in the community?
Air. Page. Vrithin limits. In certain ways I wouldn't approve and
in certain ways I would approve.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you feel there might be a danger if in this
relocation of the Japanese under prevailin;^ circumstances and senti-
ment, if they were to return to the Pacific coast at this time?
Mr. Page. My conviction is this: That these American citizens
who are mnocent ought to be treated as all other American citizens are
treated. Unless they are guilty, there doesn't seem to be any basis in
American procedure for treating them dift'erently.
Mr. MuxDT. I wasn't trying to justify a different treatment. I am
asking your judgment whether you do not feel they might receive some
other different kind of treatment?
Mr. Page. Mr. Chairman, I grew up in the South and I. have lived
in communities that are familiar with mob violence and I know the
American mind well enough to know mob violence comes easy, and
that is a confession.
Mr. MuNDT. You do feel the Government should take every pre-
caution to prevent that?
Mr. Page. I didn't finish. Nevertheless I think that American
citizens ought to be treated as equals under the law and if it is all
right for a man of Norwegian ancestry, a citizen of Norwegian ancestry,
to come into California, and a citizen of Chinese ancestry to come into
California, then it ought to be the right, and I would underscore "it
ought to be the right," of Japanese citizens who are innocent under the
law to come along with the other people.
Now. whether they can or not, I would leave that decision to them.
I wouldn't prevent them from coming because I don't see any basis
9244 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
to deny them comino;. If what I have been saying for these prin-
ciples is sound, then there isn't any basis for discrimination.
The only basis for discrimination is between a guilty American and
an innocent American. There is no basis for discrimination because
your ancestors Hved here and this man's ancestors hved there.
We ought not to treat a man under the law according to the place
where he was born.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you consider it a justifiable basis if the facts
were such that the measure seemed necessary for the Government to
keep the Japanese out of an area where they might have bodily
injury done to them?
Mr. Page. No. I would say what we ought to do is deal with the
people who would do them bodily harm. That is where the Govern-
ment's activities should be.
If there is danger that would result because of the return of some
Japanese to the Pacific coast, that danger or violence would come
either from the citizens of Japanese ancestiy who have just returned
or the violence would come from other Americans who objected to
the Japanese coming.
Now, if the people of other than Japanese ancestiy object to their
coming, then their actions are lawless and the Government ought to
deal with the lawless ones. In other words, if you have a vigilanteisra,
the law ought not to deal with the victims but with the vigilantes.
That is the American way.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you think it might be a little difficult in view
of the general temper of the people on the Pacific coast to try to avoid
possible injury to such Japanese that might be returned here? The
only thing the Government could actually do in fact would be to
attempt to arrest the perpetrators of the crimes rather than avoid the
commission of crime.
Mr. Page. One other thing we could do, and that is to stop the
distortion in our emphasis of our fellow Americans of Japanese ancestry.
Instead of all the time picturing them as scoundrels and deceitful we
might picture the innocent ones in their correct colors. That would
be helpful.
Mr, CosTELLO. Does that conclude your statement?
Mr. Page. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee appreciates your appearing here
and giving us the benefit of your views.
The committee will take a short recess.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order, and Mr. Steedman,
will you call the next witness?
Mr. Steedman. The next witness is Mr. Taylor.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN W. TAYLOR, MINISTER OF THE
METHODIST CHURCH
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your full name and occupation to
the reporter?
Mr. Taylor. Norman W. Taylor; minister of the Methodist
Church, chairman of the Commission on Interracial Good Will of the
Church Federation of Los Angeles.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 9245
Mr. Steedman. What is your present address?
^Ir. Taylor. 3764 Waseka Avcimo, Los Angeles 34.
Mr. Steedman. Your occupation is that of a clergyman?
Mr. Taylor. Minister of the Methodist Church.
Mr. Steedman. Where did you attend school, Mr. Taylor?
Mr. Taylor. University of Redlands for my college work; Yale
University Divinity School for my theological work.
Mr. Steedman. Will you state briefly the organizations of which
you are a member?
Mr. Taylor. Yes. I am a Mason and a member of the Methodist
Church, a member of the Fellow^ship of Reconciliation and a member
of the executive board of the Church Federation of Los Angeles. I
think that is all. There may be some others. If so, they don't
amount to much.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have a statement you wish to present to the
committee?
Mr. Taylor. No. I want to explain something about the state-
ment presented by the church-federation committee — how that
statement was made, if I may.
Mr. Steedman. Go right ahead.
Mr. Taylor. The impression was given that this statement was
just made by the officers of the church federation rather than as a
representation of the entire church federation.
The Church Federation of Los Angeles includes 280,000 of the large
Protestant churches, including all of the denominations of Los
Angeles.
Its membership, of course, is representative. There is no process —
just as there is no process by which the people of the United States
can vote on most of the laws that you Congressmen pass — there is
no process whereby our people could take a referendum on this matter
but this is the process:
In the first place there are three statements attached to the report
that I gave you.
The second statement — that is, the first attachment to the state-
ment that we made to you — is a joint statement from the California
Council of Churches and the Church Federation of Los Angeles,
signed by Dr. Tippett, presidejit of the Southern California Councd
of Churches; Dr. E. C. Farnhani, executive secretary, and Alphonzo
Bell, president of the Church Federation of Los Angeles.
The statement on hatred and race prejudice, with reference to the-
Japanese, represents a study which has been read in our pulpits and
which has been discussed in our local churches and which represents,
so far as can possibly be stated, the position of the Protestant churches
in Los Angeles. That is the second statement.
This third statement we explained could not be acted upon that
quickly because we are a large and unwieldy body, but we did this
yesterday:
Dr. Farnham asked me, as chairman of the interracial committee
of the church federation, if I would give time to getting consent of
the leaders of the Protestant churches to the statement which we are
making to you today.
The statement was written by Dr. Farnham and I spent an after-
noon, 4 houre, talking on the telephone incessantly to the leaders of
the Protestant churches Whom I knew and who had refused to sign
this statement.
62G26— 43— voL 15 27
9246 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
We discussed this point by point, and some of the paragraphs have
been changed after discussing the paragraphs with these men: The
Right Reverend Bishop Bertrand Stephens, head of the Episcopal
Church in southern Cahfornia; Mrs. Irene T. Heineman, who is an
officer of the women's division of the Church Federation of Los Angeles ;
Dr. E. C. Farnham, executive secretary; Dr. Remsen Bird, a former
president of the church federation and president of Occidental
College ; Dr. John Nixon, head of the social-service department of the
social welfare of the Church Federation of Los Angeles; Dr. Walter
Mudler, professor of religion in the University of Southern Cali-
fornia and chairman of the Commission on International Justice
and Goodwill of the Church Federation of Los Angeles.
All these men had full voice and they said they would be very happy
to sign this statement.
We believe it is representative of the feeling of the churches.
We can't take action in 2 days in an unwieldy body. It takes about
2 months to get a statement like the one. Hatred and Race Prejudice,
which we passed on.
I would like to point out that this reaches farther down into the
rank and file of the churches than do the newspapers of southern
California.
When the Japanese people were evacuated the churches rallied to
the Japanese churches. My own church and the churches of West
Los Angeles and Culver City gathered together and provided for our
Japanese friends on the day of their evacuation with hot rolls and
coffee.
My little church — a church with a very small membership was
responsible for getting rolls for some 2,000 people. We tried to indi-
cate to those people at that time in that way that as Christians we
considered them to be our Christian brothers.
We did that for two reasons: First, the church is above all nations
and our loyalty to God is above the division of the nations and above
the divisions in war and therefore knowing that most of these people
were loyal to the United States, we wanted to conserve their loyalty
and their Americanism.
That is part of the picture.
I had in making an appeal in my local church, which is an indica-
tion of the temper of the whole church, because mine is no rabid,
radical church — it is a very conservative church — it is, I hope, a very
Christian church, but my people responded with money which paid
for the food that we gave to the people and the soldiers who evacuated
the Japanese and the Japanese people themselves stood at' the church
tables and rubbed elbows with us to receive the food we gave them.
There v/ere m.others of men in the service who helped feed the evac-
uees and those mothers afterward told me that that was the greatest
experience in their lives — their having taken part in a larger and more
inclusive Christian loyalty.
Another indication of the fact that our communities are not rabid
as the newspapers make out we are on this subject, is the fact that
in our district pamphlets were circulated through Culver City by one
of the congressional candidates appealing to the hatred of the Japan-
ese and the candidate circulating that petition or that pamphlet lost
the election and the candidate who insisted that an attitude of toler-
ance sliould prevail won the election in every district where those
pamphlets and handbills were circulated.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9247
The other thing that I should hke to call attention to in conclusion,
is that from Deconilx^r to March all of those people lived among us.
There was no sabotage. The people were fearful. There was no harm
done to them.
Aly personal conviction, and not the conviction of the Church
Federation, but my personal conviction is that that is evidence that
this matter has been greatly — the danger involved in this thing, has
been greatly overplayed and that in the long future the day will come
when sanity comes back to us and when we will be a little bit ashamed
of the emotions that have taken possession of the minds and hearts
of Californians in this particular time.
Thank you.
]Mr. CosTELLO. Dr. Taylor, do you have any Japanese actually
belonging to your church?
Mr. Taylor. No; I do not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Where is your church located?
Mr. Taylor. Culvfer City.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you had any personal experience with the
Japanese?
Mr. Taylor. Yes; I have.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would you describe that briefly?
Air. Taylor. I have cooperated with the Japanese Methodist
churches. All of my contact previous to this time was in connection
w^ith the Japanese-Mexican churches except in Arizona when a hate-
and-pressure group tried to chase all the Japanese out of the Salt
River Valley in 1935.
At that time I was a member of a conmiittee which received letters
of thanks from the State Department and the President of the United
States for our attitude of friendliness toward the Japanese people.
At that time members of our Methodist-Japanese church were
bombed by people and we rallied behind those people and we bore
testimony to the California State Legislature and were instrumental,
according to the testimony of some of the people, who hated the people
of Japanese ancestry and race, we were instrumental in keeping the
California Legislature at that time from passing more repressing land
and property laws against the Japanese.
Mr. Costello. How many Methodist churches are there that serve
the Japanese people in Los Angeles?
Mr. Taylor. I can't tell you that. I might miss several if I told
you the ones I know.
Mr. Costello. Just numerically.
Mr. Taylor. Five or six Methodist churches, perhaps, in southern
California. There are probably more but I am not familiar with the
minutes of the Japanese Conference. I can't tell you that.
Mr. Costello. Do you have any idea as to the number of Japanese
belonging to the Methodist church or Christian churches?
Mr. Taylor. I can give you the place where you can get that
information. You can get that from Frank Heron Smith, superin-
tendent of the Japanese Mission of the Methodist Church, whose
address is on Hilligas Avenue, in Berkeley, Calif.
He has all those records and any statement concerning those things
would be — would more properly come from him.
Mr. Costello. I was interested in one statement you made that the
church was above all nations. That was one reason I was inquiring as
9248 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
to the number of Japanese that might be members of the Christian
rehgion.
it is my imdcrstandins: the majority of the Japanese are not mem-
bers of the Christian rehgion and that many of them follow Shintoism,
which is a worship of the Emperor of Japan, and it seems to me in view
of the statement you made that the chui'ch was above all nations, it is
undonbtedh^ true that those Japanese who worship the Emperor as
God, could not be loyal to this community, because of the fact their
spiritual obligation comes higher and would require loyalty to the
Emperor instead of to a civic loyalty to the United States.
Mr. Taylor. My acquaintance with the Japanese has been narrow
in this respect: The Japanese whom I have known as friends, with few
exceptions, were members of the church and active in the church.
Mr. CosTELLO. You have not had much contact with Japanese
who are not members of the Christian religion?
Mr. Taylor. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. AMiat is the name of this interracial commission?
Mr. Taylor. The Inter-Racial Commission of the Department of
Social Education and Action of the Church Federation of Los Angeles;
it is a group within the church federation.
Mr. Costello. What are the activities of that commission?
Mr. Taylor. Our object is to, as far as we can, make clear the
Christian consciousness and the common ground on wliich the churches
stand with regard to attitudes toward other races ; to promote goodwill
between the races that compose the Los Angeles com.munities; to
help in any way we can lift up the conscience of the church on these
matteis and to try to sift it down into our own membership, which is
one of our toughest jobs.
Mr. Costello. This is not properly a matter for this committee to
go into— it is a little off the question, but I couldn't help take notice
after coming out here of the "zoot suit" activities.
Mr. Taylor. We have taken some action on that. We have met
with Mr. Cranston, who is the president's representative, in discussing
this thing.
He was here about a year ago and our church federation committee
met in the mayor's office with Mr. Cranston and I understand Mr.
Cranston is to be back here again; and I am sure we are in the process
now of making our contacts to offer the good services of the church
to promote the unity of our community with regard to the different
races in any way we can.
Mr. Costello. Do you feel those activities were stirred by racial
animosity?
Mr. Taylor. It played a very large part in it; yes.
Mr. Costello. Do you feel that there has been any Axis agent
operating behind the scenes in Stirling up those activities?
Mr. Taylor. One of our Methodist ministers says it has. I am
not in close enough touch with the Mexican people to express an
opinion. I don't know.
Mr. Costello. The committee has not gone into it fully?
Air. Taylor. No, sir; it hasn't.
Mr. Costello. Hasn't it been indicated the activities are largely
carried on by American citizens, so, at least to that extent, the activ-
ities of the "zoot suiters" would not be that of a foreign race but
would actually be activities of our own citizens'? Isn't that correct?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9249
Mr. Taylor. I am not in any position to express an opinion on
that.
All I wanted to be clear was the fact that we did everything: we
could on short notice to get the full discussion within the church
lea<lership. This isn't just sonu^thino; that a few of the officers of
the church cooked up, but as far as we could we tried to be faithful
to our constituency^ and prepare a statement that was representative
of them all.
Mr. CosTELLO. We appreciate your testimony here very much.
"\\ ill you call your next witness, Mr. Steedman.
(Witness excused.)
-Mr. Steedman. I think it would be well to request the following
witnesses to confine their testimony to 10 minutes, if that is possible.
JNlr. CosTELLO. I would not — I would rather not give them a limita-
tion. I can stay here as long as they want to. So far as I am con-
cerned, it is all right. They may take as much time as they see fit.
l\lr. Steedman. The next witness is Mr. Alan Hennebold.
TESTIMONY OF ALAN HENNEBOLD, FORMER PHOTOGRAPHER,
MANZANAR RELOCATION CENTER, MANZANAR, CALIF.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you please state your name to the reporter?
Mr. Hennebold. Alan Hennebold.
Mr. Steedman. What is your address?
Mr. Hennebold. 1546 North Poinsetta Place, Hollywood, 46.
Air. Steedman. \^^lere were you born?
Mr. Hennebold. Colorado.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. Hennebold. Pueblo, 1922.
Mr. Steedman. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Hennebold. I went to school in Hollywood — Hollywood High
School.
Mr. Steedman. Did you go to college?
Mr. Hennebold. No, I didn't. I went to work.
Mr. Steedman. Where?
Air. Hennebold. I am a photographer. I have been working as a
photographer before and since I have been out of school.
Mr. Steedman. ^Miere have you been working?
Mr. Hennebold. First in Balboa, Calif., and since in Holl3^wood,
Calif.
Mr. Steedman. Are you a professional photographer?
Mr. Hennebold. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Air. Steedman. A portrait photographer?
Air. Hennebold. Yes, sir; I specialize in child portraits.
Air. Steedman. Where is your office?
Air. Hennebold. I work — ^my home is my studio.
Air. Steedman. Did you register for the draft?
Air. Hennebold. Yes; I did. 1 knew you would get to that.
Air. Steedman. What is your present draft status?
Air. Hennebold. I am 4-E). That is a so-called conscientious ob-
jector's classification.
Air. Steedman. Do you have a statement you would like to make to
the committee?
9250 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Hennebold. Yes, I do. My statement isn't so much with the
organization. I have no work with the Fellowship of Reconciliation,
but purely on my own interest in the situation, I secured the job at
Manzanar, Calif., February of this year, as photographer.
I was not employed by the W. R. A. and I did that specifically so I
could see — hope to see the situation as it was and not as the Govern-
ment agency wanted me to see it. I had full freedom of the camp at
any time and I was able to get a much more candid viewpoint of what
the f eehngs in the camp were than the average person traveling through
or a Government administrator, because I believe quite a few of the
people accepted me as one of them or accepted me on a much more
even basis.
Mr. Steedman. At that point: How did you secure your position
at Manzanar?
Mr. Hennebold. I heard that they needed a photographer. By
the way I was employed by the cooperative in the camp which set up a
photographic studio, and since no Japanese evacuee is allowed to
operate a camera, they needed a person to do the portrait work and
so I did that.
■ Mr. Steedman. Who employed you?
Mr. Hennebold. The Manzanar Cooperative. It is in all centers —
all of the business centers. It is under a community enterprise which
is set up and cooperatively owned by the people in the camp.
Mr. Steedman. "Who is in charge of the cooperative at Manzanar?
Mr. Hennebold. It is a Japanese named Okada. It is all du-ectly
under a Dr. William Bruce, a professor from Stanford. His Govern-
ment job is director of consumer enterprises.
Mr, Steedman. And Dr. William Bruce interviewed you and later
employed you?
Mr. Hennebold. He interviewed me but the actual employment
was done by the Japanese themselves, because it is a cooperative owned
by them.
Mr. Steedman. But your employment was approved by Mr. Bruce?
Mr. Hennebold. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. Steedman. What was your salary?
Mr. Hennebold. I went in because I really wanted to make a real
investigation — -I went on the same basis as a professional Japanese — I
got $19 a month.
Mr. Steedman. And your subsistence?
Mr. Hennebold. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. You may proceed with your statement.
Mr. Hennebold. First I want to say I tried not to let my former
experiences with Japanese people in high school and so forth, color
my observations in the center, and I tried to make it as candid as
possible.
In my work I came in contact with, I would say, many hundreds of
people and rny thoughtful judgment after being there for 3K months
was and is that the great majority of the Nisei are very much loyal to
the United States and to the ideals of the United States; that the
Kibei— that means the ones that have gone back to Japan, are truly
the questionable group and are the group that should be investigated,
and I as understand it, are being watched more closely.
I was quite amazed at the loyalty of a great majority of the older
people, although they had sympathy toward Japan and some love
toward Japan, as any person does, coming from another country.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9251
I felt very conclusively that — well, I won't say a majority because
that is a broad statement, but a great number of the older people are
also very sjrripathetic toward the United States.
I feel that a great deal of disintegration is taking place in the people
because of their confinement, because politically they have been
brought up in our schools; they have been taught pf the Constitution
and of the Bill of Rights just as ail the rest of us and they have really
believed in it and the incongruity of their treatment now weighs upon
them very heavily and it is taking a toll of them.
I also felt very strongly that a very sad thing was rapidly hap-
pening— ^a great number of them were getting the typical W. R. A.
feeling: "Well, they jerked us out of om- homes, ruined our business,
now let them take care of us."
Mr. Steedman. Right at that point, may I ask you a question:
Will 3'ou fk the date of your employment at Manzanar?
Mr. Hennebold. I believe it was around the 7th or 8th of Feb-
ruary of this year.
Mr. Steedman. And when did you leave there?
Mr. Hennebold. I left there about 2 weeks ago. I don't know the
exact date.
Mr. Steedman. Around June 1?
Mr. Hennebold. Right around June 1.
Mr. Steedman. 1943?
Mr. Hennebold. That is right,
Mr. Steedman. Proceed.
Mr. Hennebold. The thing I was mentioning is, I feel that it is
very important that the younger people w^ho have a great contribu-
tion to make to America and can contribute, and most of them are
warning to contribute to the war effort, that it is a very sad thing to
keep them in confinement where they have to be fed; where they are
practically of no use to our society.
On one*^ thing I differ from all the rest of these gentlemen: Although
I am of Clu-istian faith, I made a very strong attempt to get to know
the Buddhist group because that is the group that none of the rest
of the people do see or talk to and in my work all of my employees
were Buddhists, and on that score I will say that I feel that the great
majority of the Buddhists, the young Buddhists, haven't a great deal
of interest in the Buddhist church but go merely because that was the
religion of their fathers; but it doesn't mean much to them.
r would say that the large majority of the Buddhist leaders are the
group that are the most pro-Japanese and the most interested in
Japan and have retained the strongest connections with Japan.
I very candidly observed the W. R. A. set-up and I feel that Man-
zanar— that there has been no coddling of Japanese there; that on the
whole the whole management of that center, which is the only center
I can speak about, has been very, V(>ry good and very thoughtful, and
I believe the director of that camp is doing a very fine job.
Also one other thing I want to mention. Last fall I made a trip
up and down the — not all the Pacific coast, but from San Fra_ncisco
down just to merely satisfy my own opinipn on how people did feel
on this problem.
I talked to just everybody I could and I do feel that the hatred
toward the Japanese is being very greatly stretched ; that the average
run of people that I talked to at that time and that was last fall, was
9252 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
not all that is represented in the newspapers, and that if they were
assured that the group that was brought back was loyal, they would
accept them, especially if the Government would make some kind of a
statement as they have made in the Negro question, where President
Roosevelt has made the statement: "It is the American thing to do,
to accept people of other races in employment."
I think a statement like that would make it all right for them to
come back to the coast.
It is my understanding that while, although there is not a private
investigation made of each person that goes out, that the F. B. I.
records in Washington are checked against.
I, of course, not being a Government employee have no way to check
that but that is my understanding in discussion with the officials there.
I know that a very careful investigation is made of what the record
of the person has been while they were in the camp.
As far as telling the loyalty of the Japanese, I think that is entirely
feasible if we want to do it, and that it is the thing we should do.
I believe that about covers what I wanted to say.-
Mr. Eberharter. You believe the bad Japanese should be segre-
gated?
Mr. Hennebold. Yes; I certainly do. I think that is one of the
saddest things, keeping the great majority of the loyal ones in the
camps because they are constantly taunted by the people: "Well,
here is your America; here is the way they treat you."
I have talked to them and I loiow that and for that reason I think
they should be segregated.
Mr. Eberharter. As far as you observed there was no segregation
of the bad ones from the good ones?
Mr. Hennebold. I will say this: The ones that were dangerous to
the others in a physical way had been segregated, but I would not say
that all of the people that weren't 100-percent loyal had been segre-
gated.
Mr. CosTELLO. I believe vou stated all your employees were'
Buddhists?
Mr. Hennebold. Not all my employees. I meant the men I
worked with in the studio.
Mr. CosTELLO. Most of those working in the cooperative photo-
graphic department were members of the Buddhist cult?
Mr. Hennebold. That represents only a small part of the cooper-
ative but that is true.
Mr. Costello. What is the situation generally in the cooperative?
Mr. Hennebold. I would say the majority of the cooperative
workers are Christians.
Mr. Costello. Is the cooperative actually controlled by the Nisei
group in the camp or are the older Japanese in control of it?
Mr. Hennebold. It is a mixture of both; it is controlled by the
people.
Mr. Costello. You were not able to distmguish any control between
the two groups?
Mr. Hennebold. Definitely not.
Mr. Costello. It seemed to be a joint control of the cooperative?
Mr. Hennebold. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. And not by any particular element in the camp?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS 9253
Mr. Hennebold. No; of coiirsp the people that have had business
expedience before were working in it because of their experience, but
did not predominate. I beheve tlie chairman of the board at present
is a Nisei.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Kibei group, as such, for exampk\ had not
gained control of the cooperative?
Mr. Hennebold. No; definiteh^ not.
Mr. CosTELLO. No one group really dominated it?
Mr. Hennebold. Definitely not.
One further statement I would like to make: I think one thing
that woidd help the operation of the camp a lot would be on this
financial thing — on the clothing allowances. You know they are
given so much for clothes.
If that could be handled more carefully, so they wouldn't be given
such a large sum of monej^ at once — I mean where there is a whole
family and not hold it out for so long, that has caused quite a bit of
trouble.
Of course the thing that comes to my mind all the time is that if
these people are going to be held out, it is a very sad thing that the
camp is not allowed to become self-supporting so that it isn't a drain
on the public.
Mr. CosTELLO. From your observation, do you believe the situa-
tion at Manzanar would make it possible for them to make that
camp self-supporting?
Mr. Hennebold; I think to a great extent it could be.
Mr. CosTELLO. Through agricultural production and things of
that character?
Mr. Hennebold. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You spoke of disintegration taking place in the
camp due to confinement.
Do you believe that the fact that the Japanese are confined is the
sole reason why there seems to be a disintegration of the loyalty of the
Japanese?
iNlr. Hennebold. It is not so much disintegration of the loyalty
but disintegration pf their whole outlook toward everything.
I will speak first of the older people w)io have really tried to con-
tribute something to California. Their feeling is: "Here we have
spent these years working," and so forth, "and now we are just
completely thrown down."
I mean there is a sense, certainly, of bitterness about that.
INfr. CosTELLO. You feel possibly that some of the Kibei may be
working on the other Japanese to build up that person's reaction?
Mr. Hennebold. Yes; and that is one of the dangerous things.
Mr. CosTELLO. And there has been no attempt on the part of the
authorities at Manzanar to prevent that or interfere with it that you
observed?
l\Ir. Hennebold. I believe there is. All the time people are being
removed.
Mr. CosTELLO. You don't know for what reasons they are being
removed or to what locations they are being sent?
Mr. Hennebold. No; I don't. I %Vasn't in the Goverrmient so I
don't know.
Mr. Costello. I thought you might have picked up information
tlirough conversations.
9254 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
You spoke of yoiir trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Do you
believe the sentiment you witnessed last fall exists in the same degree
today?
Mr. Hennebold. I don't know the rest of the coast but I believe
it does to a large degree here in Los Angeles. I tliink some bad
sentiment has been whipped up by the press.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you feel that there has been an increase in the
feeling of the people here against having the Japanese returned to
California, say, duiing the last three or four months?
Mr. Hennebold. I don't believe a normal — ^I mean I don't think
it would have come to thek minds had it not been brought up in the
press so much.
Mr.. Costello. You think that possibly the return of many of
the marines from Guadalcanal and other fighting fronts in the Orient
has had any influence in the feeling of the people of California?
Mr. Hennebold. I wouldn't say so. I have talked to quite a few
friends of mine who have come back and have a very good attitude.
Mr. Costello. "What do you mean?
Mr. Hennebold. I know one young man who made the statement
to me:
That is what we are out fighting for so at home we do have democracy so that
people who were not accused of anything would not be locked up and concentrated
in a camp when they had not been accused of anything.
Mr. Costello. Did he make any comment to you regarding the
Japanese fighters?
Mr. Hennebold. He said that all the stuff about them being such
fanatical fighters didn't seem to be true; but they seemed to be hke
any other fellows.
Mr. Costello. Did he speak to you about any deceit or tricks
that they performed, for example, playing wounded and waiting for
some one to come up, like a doctor, or an Ambulance Corps man or
Medical Corps man and then exploding a hand grenade?
Mr. Hennebold. No.
Mr. Costello. Having a hand grenade or something of that sort
ready to kill the Medical Corps man or the doctor?*
Mr. Hennebold. No; he didn't. I asked him specifically about
that and he said that he hadn't.
Mr. Costello. He had personally not witnessed anything of that
kmd?
Mr. Hennebold. No ; nor heard of it.
Mr. Costello. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. That is all.
Mr. Costello. I want to thank you very much for the information
you have given to the committee.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Costello. Have you any other witnesses?
Mr. Steedman. Yes, Mr. Hunter. But I have one thing I would
like to do before Mr. Hunter goes on the stand.
I would like to introduce for the record a memorandum signed by
Mr. Smiley, authorizing Mr. Hennebold to represent the Fellowship
of Reconciliation before the committee.
Mr. Costello. Very well.
Mr. Steedman. It is on the letterhead of the Fellowship of Recon-
cihation, 1411 West Twenty-second Street, Los Angeles, Calif.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTElS 9255
It reads as follows:
To Whom It Alay Concern:
_ This is to certify that Alan Hennebold is a member of the Fellowship of Recon-
ciliation, and IS hereby authorized to speak for such organization before the
Dies committee meeting in Los Angeles.
And that is signed:
Glenn E. Smiley, Area Secretary.
Mr. Hunter, will you please be sworn?
TESTIMONY OF ALLAN H. HUNTER, MINISTER, MT. HOLLYWOOD
CONGREGATIONAL CHURCH, LOS ANGELES, CALIF.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
}^lv. CosTELLO. Will you please give your full name to the reporter?
Mr. Hunter. Allan H. Hunter.
Mr. CosTELLo. And your occupation?
Mr. Hunter. Minister, Mt. Hollywood Congregational Church,
4609 Prospect Avenue, Los Angeles.
Ivlr. Steedman. How long have you lived in Los Angeles?
Mr. Hunter. Sixteen years — more than that.
Mr. Steedman. Where were you born, sir?
ISIr. Hunter. Toronto, Canada.
Mr. Steedman. "V\Tien?
Mr. Hunter. 1893.
Mr. Steedman. Are you an American citizen?
Mr. Hunter. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Wlien did you become a citizen?
Mr. Hunter. My father was natm'alized and when I became of age
I presume that would be it.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please state some of the organizations
that you are presently a member of?
Mr. Hunter. Fellowship of Reconciliation, chairman southwest
area; executive committee, American Civil Liberties Union; committee
on social action of the Southern California Congregational Conference.
I don't recall being a member at this time of any other organization.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I have a memorandum similar to
the other two, authorizing the Reverend Mr. Hunter to appear before
the committee as representing the Fellowship of Reconciliation. I
would like to read this into the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection, you may do so.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
To Whom It May Concern:
This is to certify that Allan H. Hunter is the southwest Pacific area committee
chairman of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, and is authorized to represent the
organization before the Dies committee meeting in Los Angeles.
And it is signed, "Glenn E. Smiley, Area Secretar}^"
Do you have a statement you would like to make to the committee
at this time?
iVIr. Hunter. Yes. It is based on the study of the oriental prob-
lem in this country in a book of the Far East, published by the mis-
sionary education movement of this country and based on intimate
contact with individual Nisei and Issei, and based on being the speaker
at several Nisei Christian conferences at different years and the re-
9256 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
treats — religious retreats, and based on visits to where I preached at
the Kivers Gila' Relocation Center and Manzanar.
My point is very simple; that out of this experience and to repeat
based on a good deal of effort through many years, I am convinced
as a minister that a great number of these American citizens of Jap-
anese ancestry are c[uite loyal. They are committed to the demo-
cratic spirit; that we should encoui'age them and give them a chance
to make the contribution they would like to make to democracy to
this country.
I would agree with the President of the United States that no loyal
citizen of the United States should be denied the democratic right to
exercise the responsibilities of citizenship regardless of his ancestry.
The principles on which this country was founded and by which it
has always been governed is that Americanism is a matter of mind
and heart. Americanism is not and never was a matter of race or
ancestry.
A good American —
And this is from President Roosevelt's message on February 1/ this
year —
A good American is one who is loyal to this country and to our creed of lib-
erty and democracy.
Every loyal American citizen should be given the opportunity to serve this
country wherever his skills may make the greatest contribution, whether it be in
the ranks of our armed forces, war production, agriculture, government service, or
other work essential to the war effort.
My experience bears out the generalization made by many friends
that a great number of these Nisei are very eager to help in any way
they will be allowed to help. The analogy, if I may be permitted to
give it, is that of a German shepherd dog. If you kick him and mis-
treat him he can become a problem; if you train him, give him a master
to take care of so he is a seeing dog, he will be faithful in the discharge
of his responsibilities.
And these Nisei have great gifts. We talked with principals of
schools and college presidents.
I have statements from different ones, if you care to hear them,
and ministers who know them, and the generalization is that a great
number of them are very eager to serve. And I find in talking with
them in the camp and in getting letters from them constantly, that a
number of them are getting discouraged. I don't mean by that they
are against democracy. I mean they are feeling as though they are
not wanted.
And I would like to point out to this committee a great opportu-
nity for us as soon as possible to encourage them to give them con-
fidence to help them make their contribution by dispersing them over
the country.
Now, the question of whether they shoidd come back here is a rather
technical and somewhat debatable question.
I think, personally, they have a great nimiber of friends here who
respect them and who are loyal to them and that if a plan could be
worked out to allow it to be known that those would undertake to
fulfill certain conditions could be allowed back here, those who are
American citizens, who are proved loyal, I believe there are techniques
for discovering loyalty.
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS 9257
Thoro was an article publisluHl in Harper's by a Tjieut(Miant Com-
mander of the Navy, who indicated that if one coukl fintl a corps of
loyal Nisei and get their double check and then get the F. B. I. double
check and a double check from tlie administration and other double
checks, and thus determine the loyalty, 1 think we have the techniques
that were suggested by the lieutenant, in charge of the Intelligence of
California —Naval Intelligence.
I think we can get those techniques.
Now, the other point, briefly, I would like simply to intimate is that
unless we do take action to allow these young people to give expression
to their loyalty, which I am convinced many of them have just like
our own people — I don't tliink they are much different from our own
young people, much less different than the publicity makes out — much
less different than one w ould gather from the rather synthetic prejudice
and hatred that is being generated — that if they are allowed to get out
these normal healthy young people, it would help them to offset the
propaganda going on in the Far East and from Hitler's agents that
we are denjnng, the democracy that we believe in.
There would be no risk in allowing some to come back here, that
is true. There may be greater risk in allowing it to be understood in
the Orient wdiere are millions of people w^atching to see whether we
really mean our democracy.
I will grant the risk, but I rather think very few young Nisei w^ould
come back here in a hurry; that it could be put up to them so they
would do the reasonable thing at a good deal of sacrifice.
I feel they are willing to sacrifice, many of them, and that the
technical problem of preventing mob riots and vigilanteism can be
handled through the law.
I don't think it is a hopeless problem. Here is our problem to,
among other things, not only persuade our own people but to persuade
the world and the Orient that is watching, that we really mean our
democracy.
It is a serious problem and there are risks if w^e live up to democracy,
but I am making a plea for us not to permit Hitlerism and racialism
to triumph.
I am not saying it is triumphing, but we are running that risk
unless they take advantage of the chance to disperse the young people
out of relocation centers and give them a chance to get their roots
down in a community and make their contribution. But right now
some of them have what they called in the last war, barbed-wire
disease.
They are getting disheart(Mied. They are getting disorganized.
It is taking the heart out of them and I do feel I am in a position to
know something about this.
In my book published on this question I made the statement that
there was a wall between the older generation and the younger gener-
ation. It is a glass wall — -politically, linguistically, culturally. They
are quite different, the younger ones.
I have an adolescent child, and I find that even Caucasians can be
different from their parents. But it is more marked and I played that
up in the book, and one of the experts laughed at the statement. He
said:
It isn't a glass wall; it is a brick wall.
9258 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
My point is that there is great difference between the American
citizens and the older people. A great number of them are active
Chiistians. I can testify to that. And we have had some in ; our
church whom I trust and I would like to see them given a chance to
make their contribution.
The testimony, if you would care to hear it — I would like to read
from just one or two notes that I have here, the first one being a quota-
tion from Mr. Milton Eisenhower, brother of Gen. Dwight Eisen-
hower:
I would say that from 80 to 85 percent of the Nisei (American-born citizens of
Japanese ancestry) are loyal to the United States. I just cannot say things too
favorable about the way they have cooperated under the most adverse cir-
cumstances.
We need to know that people are what they are not because of their
blood or the shape of their head or noses, but because of their response
to stimulus, and I believe that a lot of these American citizens have
already responded to the challenge of the BUI of Rights.
They are good citizens and they are very eager to help.
The statement of Dr. Franz Boas, late dean of American antlu-o-
pologists in The Mind of Primitive Men, says:
We are acting like primitive man when we imagine that because we classify
a man as a Japanese he is foredoomed to act according to our sentimental picture
of what all Japanese are like. As a matter of fact, all individuals in every class
are a little different. You have to judge a man according to his actual ability
and character, not according to the so-called class you think he belongs to.
Anthropologist Otto K^ineberg says:
There is nothing in the brain or blood of other races which justifies our ill
treatment of them.
Here are 70,000 of them, a lot very loyal, and here is the Orient
watching. We have risks whatever we do, but I would do all I
can to get us to take the risk on the side of democracy and the Bill of
Rights; and it isn't necessary for them to be a problem. And I
agree with the others that the Kibei — many of them, not all— I know
one or two very well who are loyal Kabei, five men — that is a different
problem, but to have the double check, using the findings of some of
the loyal Nisei themselves.
I think that is what the lieutenant pointed out and that is a very
valuable insight.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. I might call your attention. Dr. Hunter, to the fact
that we have found, according to the testimony that has been
developed in Poston, that in many cases those Japanese Nisei who
have indicated any attempt toward loyalty have been subject to
attack, apparently by the disloyal Japanese. For that reason I was
wondering whether you thought it might be possible for us to obtain
from the loyal Nisei any definite or concrete evidence to any extent,
as to the good Japanese whom we could trust to be removed from the
camps?
Mr. Hunter. That was Lieutenant Commander Ringle's sug-
gestion.
I wondered about whether you could get a group — I think you could,
of loyal Japanese. I don't know. I wouldn't want — I think I would
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9259
give evidence without any question when a big issue hke this was
involved, I think we could depend on them. I know one or two that
have had threats. I think they would welcome physical danger if they
were given a chance to do it, to vindicate the democracy that I believe
they live m.
Mr. CosTELLO. I believe any Jap who would suffer personal violence
because ot his beliefs mdicates his loyalty to this country.
The testimony so far before the committee has mdicated very
dehnitely that checks are not being made on the Japanese who are
being released from the centers. So, I am very glad to have your
statement that you feel a check should be made and that those checks
should be made before they are released,
Mr. Hunter. May I add I get letters constantly referring to these
checks from the W. R. A., asking for information on this person and
that person and I can't testify as to how thorough that is and how many
people give testunony, but I am constantly answering those letters.
Mr. CosTELLo. You receive letters from the W. R. A.?
Mr. Hunter. Yes; askmg about this man and that man.
Mr. CosTELLo. Inquiries about Japanese whom you have known or
had contact with or were members of your congregation?
Mr. Hunter. Those whom I. have known — I don't want to exag-
gerate the number in our congregation — one or two youngsters from
the church school and others, but our church took over the Hollywood
Independent Japanese Church and we are holding it for them. They
were near us and we have had close contact with them.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have those whom the "W. R. A. writes about given
your name as a reference?
Mr. Hunter. Apparently so — I assume that.
Mr. Costello. That is a case of the W. R. A. checking up the
references that are given to them by the Japanese themselves?
Mr. Hunter. Quite probably ; it would have that flavor.
Mr. Costello, Do you know whether they have contacted the
former employers of any of these Japanese to obtain from them a.
record of their previous employment?
Mr. Hunter. I can't give accurate information on that; no.
Mr. Costello. Do you have anything further to state to the com-
mittee?
Mr. Hunter. No ; I think that is all I have.
Mr. Costello. Vie appreciate very much your appearing before
the committee.
Mr. Steedman. .Mr. Smiley is the next witness.
(Witness excused.)
IVIr. Costello, Will you be sworn, Mr. Smiley?
TESTIMONY OF GLENN E. SMILEY, SECRETARY, FELLOWSHIP OF
RECONCILIATION FOR THE SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA *
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Steedman, W ill you state your name to the reporter?
Mr. Smiley. Glenn E. Smiley,
Mr, Steedman. What is your addi'ess?
Mr, Smiley. 1411 West Twenty-second Street, Los Angeles 7,
Cahf.
9260 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. "What is your occupation?
Mr. Smiley. I am a Methodist ck^rgyman. At the present time I
am employed as the secretary of the Fellowship of Reconciliation for
the Southwest Pacific Area.
Mr. Steedman. Where were you born?
Mr. Smiley. Born in Texas in 1910.
Mr. Steedman. Where in Texas?
Mr. Smiley. Loraine.
Mr. Steedman. Where did you attend school?
Mr. Smiley. High school in Loraine, Tex.; college in a number of
schools — McMurray College, University of Arizona at Tucson;
Georgetown — I mean Southwestern University in Georgetown,
Tex. — and I neglected to say Gainesville Junior College.
Mr. Steedman. Are you married?
Mr. Smiley. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have a statement that you would like to
make to the committee?
Mr. Smiley. Yes. I have not had wide experience with Japanese
previous to the evacuation, but I have visited three of the camps — •
IVianzanar, Poston, and Rivers on several occasions.
I was at Poston at the time of the outbreak that they had there
sometime ago — I believe in December, and it is my conviction upon
these visits — upon the .basis of these visits and correspondence I have
had with Japanese, that the majority of them are loyal and do seek
an opportunity to make their contribution to American life.
1 feel it is the policy of the organization that I represent that the
best possible thing that could happen to the Japanese-Americans,
and to democracy as a whole, is ^ to make relocation immediately
available for all Japanese whose loyalty has not been questioned, and
that they be allowed to make that contribution to American life.
I think it would also be the policy of the organization that while it
wou^d not probably be wise for great numbers of them to return to
California, that certainly they should be given the opportunity if they
were willing to meet the dangers entailed for some of the numbers of
them to return.
That, I tlunk, in order to conserve time, is the burden of the state-
ment that I would like to make — that we are convinced that the
majority of the Japanese are loyal. I would not confine it to the
Nisei but to the Issei as well.
I do not know enough about the Kibei to voice an opinion. *
Mr. Costello. Have you visited the Poston . center since the
outbreak there last November?
Mr. Smiley. Yes.
Mr. Costello. Have you found conditions to be any different
since that time than they were prior to the outbreak?
Mr. Smiley. A gradual deterioration has been mentioned before.
It has been mentioned there has been considerable deterioration on
the part of the people but yet a great hope that they can be relocated. '
]\ r. Costello. Wliat do you mean by "deterioration"?
Mr. Smiley. I consider by deterioration discouragement and
general lethargy or lassitude settling upon the people as a result of the
corifine^^ent.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9261
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you find a woakciiino; of their loyalty to the
United States as a part of that distiiitegratioii?
Mr. Smiley. I have not found that among those that I have con-
tacted.
I could give some figures about the Christians in the camp.
There are 2,51)0 Christians in ^vlanzanar, aocortling lo the Christian
pastors. I could voice no opinion as to the increase of dislo3^alty.
Mr. CosTELLo. Have you observed at Poston an increase in senti-
ment for Japan?
Mr. Smiley. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. B}'- the Kibei or any of that group?
'Sir. Smiley. I have not detected that. I have moved largely in
Christian circles and I am sure disloyalty among the Christian group
is very small.
I feel reasonably sure that to be true of the other groups as well, but
I have not had contact with them.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words the group with which you have
moved you liave not found any great measure of disloyalty at all?
Mr. Smiley. I have found no evidence of disloyalty. But it should
be remembered, however, that my contacts have been limited to the
Christian group. But just visiting in the camps I have found no
evidence of disloyalty.
Mr. Steedmax. I hand you a photostatic copy of a brochure and
ask you if you can identify that as being an official document?
Ml'. Smiley. Tes, sir; this is an official document presented by the
Fellowship of Reconciliation. It is a small pamphlet that is given to
people when they inquire as to our principles.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce this
pamphlet into the record with the suggestion it be printed in the
testimony of the witness who testified regarding the aims and pur-
poses of the Fellowship of Reconciliation.
Mr. Costello. This is a photostatic copy?
Mr. Smiley. II is is all contained in this pamphlet; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you accept it in evidence?
Mr. Smiley. This is last year's pamplilet.
Mr. Costello. This is the pamphlet put out last year by the
Fellowship of Reconciliation?
Mr. Smiley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. In the pamphlet put out this year have any material
changes been made in the subject matter?
Mr. Smiley. No. Some names on the back have been changed
as new members have been elected to the national council.
Mr. Costello. But the general matter concerning the organization
and its purposes and objectives are the same?
Mr. Smiley. Practically the same.
Mr. Costello. With that explanation, the document will be re-
ceived as an exh.bit.
(The document referred to was marked "Smiley Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. Steedmax. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Smiley. Thank you.
Mr. Costello. Do you have any further statement you wish to
make?
62626 — 43— vol. 15 28
9262 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Smiley. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. I want to thank you for your patience in coming
here today and waiting from early morning until late tonight.
That will conclude the hearings for today and we will recess at
this time until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning,
(Thereupon, at 7:05 p. m., the hearing was adjourned untU 10
a. m., Wednesday, June 16, 1943.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMEEICAN PKOPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 16, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee
TO Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, CaliJ.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m. in room 1543, United States
Post Office and Courthouse, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. John M.
Costello, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter, and
Hon. Karl E. ]Mundt.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee,
acting counsel.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
You may call your first witness, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Thomas Cavett.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS CAVETT, FORMER INVESTIGATOR,
CALIFORNIA STATE LEGISLATURE
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Costello. Will you state your full name for the record?
Mr. Cavett. Thomas L. Cavett.
Mr. Steedman. What is your present address?
Mr. Cavett. 815 Cloverdale, Los Angeles.
Mr. Steedman. Where were you born?
Mr. Cavett. Pittsburgh, Pa.
Mr. Steedman. \Mien?
Mr. Cavett. 1889.
Mr. Steedman. Are you married?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever served in the armed forces of the
United States?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. "VVlien?
Mr. Cavett. During the World War, and then I was in the Reserve
for 10 years.
Mr. Steedman. Are you a member of any organizations?
Mr, Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please name the organizations you are a
member of?
Mr. Cavett. Masonic order and the American Legion.
9263
9264 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Will you please state for the record some of the
important positions or jobs that you have held?
Mr. Cavett. I was formerly claims exami^er — investigator for
the United States Veterans Bureau for 6K years. I was in the district
attorney's office of Los Angeles for 12 years.
I worked as an investigator for the past 2 years for the California
State Legislature.
Mr. Steedman. That is the so-called Tenney committee?
Mr. Cavett. That is the Tenney committee, yes.
Mr. Steedman. Were you assigned by the Special Committee on
Un-American Activities to investigate Japanese relocation centers?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. When did you leave Los Angeles for that duty?
Mr. Cavett. About May 10.
Mr. Steedman. 1943? «
Mr. Cavett. Yes, May 10, 1943.
Mr. Steedman. When did you return to Los Angeles?
Mr. Cavett. The 30th day of May.
Mr. Steedman. How many miles did you travel on that investiga-
tive trip?
Mr. Cavett. 5,040 miles.
Mr. Steedman. Which war relocation projects did you investigate
or visit first?
Mr. Cavett. Manzanar.
Mr. Steedman. Wliere is Manzanar located?
Mr. Cavett. Up in the Owens Valley.
Mr. Steedman. And how far is Manzanar from Los Angeles?
Mr. Cavett. About 230 miles.
Mr. Steedman. Will you lix the date of your inspection of Man-
zanar?
Mr. Cavett. We got there about the 10th or 11th of May.
Mr. Steedman. How long did you stay at Manzanar?
Air. Cavett. Well, I worked first on the outskirts in Lone Pine
and down at Independence for about a day and night, and then I
worked in the camp for about a day and a half.
Mr. Steedman. How far is Manzanar from Independence, Calif.?
Mr. Cavett. About 10 miles.
Mr. Steedman. Is ludepeadence the nearest small town to Man-
zanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What officials did you first interview at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. I first mterviewed Ivlr. Ralph Merritt. He was the
director of the project.
Mr. Steedman. Did you take a stenographic record of Mr. Merritt's
statements?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And was that statement taken down by one of
Mr. Merritt's own stenographers in his office?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And did Mr. Merritt furnish you with certain
material and data regarding the war relocation project at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. He did.
Mr. Steedman. Do j^ou have that data and material with you?
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 9265
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Will your testimony for tlio most part be based
upon the material and evidence furnished by Mr. Merritt?
jMr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Is the material which you have spread before you
in folders, nuiterial furnished you by Mr. Merritt at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Alerritt furnish you with any statistics
of the population of Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please read into the record the number
of persons who are presently living inside the relocation center at
Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. On May 6, 1943, the population of Manzanar was
9,143. There was one man absent from the camp that was supposed
to be there. He was in the Inyo County jail.
Mr. Steedman. The two memorandums referred to by the witness
I ask be marked "Committee's Exhibit No. 1," and be made a part
of the record.
]\Ir. Costello. It will be so ordered.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 1," and
made a pari of the record.)
Air. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt furnish you with any information
regarding the number of evacuees that have asked for repatriation?
Mr. Cavett. He did.
Mr. Steedman. And how many were there?
Mr. Cavett. There were 399 as of the date of Ma}^ 6. These
included citizens and dual citizens, aliens. I have here a list of their
names and age and sex.
Mr. Steedman. In connection with the list of Japanese who have
asked for repatriation, I would like to point out that some of the
Japanese who have asked for repatriation have admitted on their
repatriation request that they have dual citizenship.
I think it is rather interesting to note some of the Japanese have
actually come forward an-d admitted they are dual citizens.
I wish to make this a part of the record and marked "Exhibit 2."
Mr. Costello. Without objection, it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 2," and made
a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt furnish you with any forms or
cjuestionnaires having to do with the loyalty of American citizens of
Japanese ancestry who are now evacuees at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steed]\l\n. Does the form which I am handing to you contain
question .known as question No. 28?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please read into the record question No.
28?
Mr. Cavett (reading) :
Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of America and
forswear any form of allegiance to the Japanese Emperor or anj^ other foreign
power, government, or organization?
9266 UK-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTES
Then, Mr. Steedman, they had another revised form which they
instituted, which they gave a higher rating on their loyalty. That is
the so-called voluntary amended oath.
Mr. Steedman. The original oath was rejected by some of the alien
Japanese and this new form, the so-called voluntary registration form,
was submitted in order to get the Japanese to sign some kind of an
oath of allegiance to the country?
Mr. Cavett. That is right; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make these two forms
part of the record, and marked "Exhibit No.. 3."
Mr. Costello. Without any objection it is so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 3," and
made a par.; of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt furnish you with other forms
that are required to be filled out by the evacuees at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir. There was Form W. R. A. 26, Form 154,
for male citizens for volunteering for the Army, and 304- A, which
was filled out by male citizens only.
Also Form 165 filled out by male citizens volunteering for the Army
and then there was Form 304-A fillexl out by all male citizens regis-
tering.
Mr. Steedman. And these are the forms that the W. R. A. fur-
nished the Japanese evacuees and on which they based their inform-
ation regarding each evacuee?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make these forms part of
the record and marked "Exhibit No. 4."
Mr. Costello. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 4," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt furnish you with a report setting
forth the monthly cost of operating the mess halls at Manzanar,
including the cost of food, labor and overhead, and so forth?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And do you have that information before you at
this time?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; on Form No. 735.
Mr. Steedman. Will you read mto the record the information con-
tained on this form?
Mr. Cavett. It is an mventory of stores on hand.
Mr. Steedman. And what is the date of it?
Mr. Cavett. This is dated March 1943, headed, "Relocation Cen-
ter, Manzanar, War Relocation Authority xUonthly Subsistence
Report."
In February 1943 there was an inventory of all stores on hand of
$154,461.72, and a recapitulation of various amounts of stores on hand
which is reflected in the further inventory which we will show later on.
Mr. Steedman. In other words they had $154,461.72 worth of
goods on hand to serve 9,143 evacuees?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir,
Mr. Costello. What type of goods does that refer to? Is it food-
stuffs, clothing, or what?
Mr. Cavett. Foods.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9267
Mr. CosTELLO. Food?
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chamnar, I wish to introduce this report in
evidence as exhibit No. 5.
Air. CosTELLO. Without objection, it will be so ordered.
"(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5," and made
a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did you obtain a copy of a monthly report showing
incoming subsistence supplies for any particular month?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; I did. I am reading at tins time from the
report of May 10, 1943. There are so many items on here it is almost
impossible and would take quite a while to read them all, so I will read
off a few of the items showing the amounts and quantities they have
on hand.
In the butcher shop inventory, for instance, they had 10,588
pounds of pork shoulders; 2,798 pounds of mutton; 1,950 pounds of
margarine; 1,580 pounds of cheese.
There is a long list of vegetables and baby foods such as asparagus,
4,841 cans; canned beans, 7,720 cans.
Mr. CosTELLO. What size are those cans?
Mr. Cavett. Pound cans.
Mr. Steedman. Did you say "baby food"?
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you reading from an inventory provided you by
the camp director at Manzanar?
Mr, Cavett. Yes, sir; these are all their records.
Mr. MuNDT. Their owti records?
Mr. Cavett. Yes. Now, we come down to canned beets and
various other canned goods: 5,658 cans of apples; 4,854 cans of black-
berries; 2,292 cans of bluebemes; 10,259 bottles of catsup; 4,823 cans
of com; 804 cans of cranberries.
And then there is another brand of cranberries too, 138 cans.
In fish they had 12,239 cans of salmon — 15-ounce cans.
Then sardines — there were 10,032 cans.
Fruit cocktail, 3,352 cans.
Skimmed milk, dry, 7,250 poimds.
Evaporated milk, 28,248 cans.
Canned peaches, one brand, 3,195 cans. Another brand of canned
peaches, 6,254 cans.
Mr. Eberharter. All No. 1 or what size cans?
Air. Cavett. Pound cans.
Pears, 7,560 cans. Then another brand of pears, 1,034 cans.
Crushed pineapple, 1,752 cans; spiced pineapple, 684 cans.
Solid pack tomatoes, 50,138 cans. Another brand of tomatoes,
782 cans.
They had in brown sugar, 3,293 pounds.
Granulated sugar, 17,828 pounds.
Cube sugar, 120 packages.
Under powdered sugar they have 3,092 pounds.
Tea, 11,556 pounds.
On another grade of tea, 13,810 pounds. Another grade of tea,
1,457)2 pounds.
And then the inventory goes on and enumerates many other items.
9268 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Was it your understanding that this inventory was
a compilation of goods and subsistence in the camp for the period of
1 month?
Mr. Cavett. Yes. This is the monthly inventory.
Mr. Steedman. This is the monthly inventory of food and subsist-
ence received, is that correct?
Mr. Cavett. This is the warehouse inventory.
Mr. Steedman. That is the subsistence on hand in the warehouse?
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. In other words, the material or subsistence that
you have read into the record is stored in the warehouse?
Mr. Cavett. That is already stored in the warehouse. In addition
to that they have a monthly supply coming in on top of that which we
have here.
Mr. Steedman. And this supply is kept on hand to feed 9,143
evacuees, is that correct?
Mr. Cavett. That is right; yes.
Air. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make this report a part
of the record as exhibit No. 6.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection it will be received.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 6," and made
a part of the record.
Mr. Steedman. Did you obtain copies of requisitions addressed to
the commanding officer at Mira Loma, Calif., and also a requisition
to the Quartermaster Market Center, 4224 District Boulevard,
Vernon Station, Los Angeles, Calif., signed by J. R. Winchester,
chief steward at Manzanar, dated March 5, 1943, for the period of
May 1943 and April 5, 1943, for the period of May 1943?
Mr. Cavett. I did. This is a copy of a requisition to the com-
manding officer of the Mira Loma Quartermaster Department, Mira
Loma, Calif., and I would hke to state at this time, Mr. Steedman,
all the commodities for these camps are bought through the Quarter-
master Department.
Whether they pay the wholesale price or retail price, why, they
don't seem to know out there at the camps. In other words, they
don't know whether these prices are wholesale prices or retail prices.
Mr. MuNDT. What is the date of this requisition?
Mr. Cavett. This is dated March 5, 1943 and it says: "For the
period May 1943."
This was evidently put in in March to be delivered in May. The
dates are March 5, 4, and 3, and the period is for May 1943.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact they order for 3 months in
advance?
Mr. Cavett. Yes; they order 3 months in advance on top of the
stock they have on hand.
Mr. Steedman. And this was ordered in March for delivery in
May?
Mr. Cavett. That is right; yes. I will read a few of the items.
This was for the week of May 6. These are all for weekly periods.
For the week of May 6 they ordered 1 ,330 pounds of coffee. In fact
they ordered 1,330 pounds of coffee for each week. May 6, May 13,
May 20, and May 27. For the 4 weeks 5,290 pounds of coffee were
ordered.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 9269
Tliov ordered 1.020 pounds of cornstarch.
Soda crackers, 2,400 pounds.
Hard wheat flour, 12,000 pounds.
Soft wheat flour, 12,000 pounds.
Kice, 180,000 pounds.
Granuhiled sugar, 19,200 pounds.
Mr. MuNDT. Is there anything to show how long a period this food
is supposed to suppty them?
Mr. Cavett. They say they always keep 3 months' on hand.
Mr. MuNDT. Is this a 3-months" allotment?
Mr. Cavett. No; this is the weeldy allotment. They are ordering
now for a week. In other words they order every week, but they say:
"We always want to keep 3 months' supply on hand."
Mr. MuNDT. Then the figures which j-ou are reading represents the
food needed for a week at that camp?
Mr. Cavett. Evidently that is it; yes. It says here these goods
are to be delivered here on or before May 1, 1943, and the order was
made out March 5 for the period of May, and they say: "To be
delivered on or before May 4."
Mr. MuxDT. I understand that, but I was wondering if there was
anj-tliing in the record to show that was intended to feed the camp for
1 week, 2 weeks, or 1 month or 3 months, because the figures are not
significant unless we know the amount of time that is to be used to
consume that food.
Mr. CosTELLO. The figures you read from exhibit 6 were the
permanent inventory of the camp?
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. Costello. The inventory that they keep on hand?
Air. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. So at any time if one of the weekly supplies you
are now reading does not arrive, they can fall back on the reserve
stock?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. And there is approximately $17 worth of foodstuff
per person held in reserve?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. I don't know whether there has been read into
the record the net cost per person per day of feeding the evacuees
and what their rations consist of. It seems to me that is the important
part.
Mr. Steedman. We have had testimony on that.
Mr. Costello. The testimony indicated -it was either 40 or 45
cents per person as the daily amount allotted to each of them.
Mr. Eberharter. I note on this exhibit No. 5, Form 735, the
monthly subsistence report for the month of March 1943, at Man-
zanar, item 22 says: "Net cost per person per day $0.43765."
That is evidently the cost of feeding each evacuee per day; is that
correct?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. Costello. Item 9 says: "Monthly average food cost of one
ration." And then in parenthesis: "A ration is the cost of three
meals for one person fpr 1 day." And it has $0.35307. That evi-
dentely is a little over 35 cents?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
9270 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. CosTELLO. Is that correct?
Mr. Cavett. That is correct. They are allowed, I thmk, 45 cents
and it varies between various camps. It varies between 35 and 45
cents. All figures run between those two figures.
Mr. Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, we are not going
to make much headway by simply reading a lot of figures into the
record unless we know how long a period is involved, because it is
utterly meaningless to say they ordered 180,000 pounds of rice unless
you specify whether it is going to be used in a day or week or 10 years.
I think it is highly important to have that. If we don't, I see no
purpose in reading the figures into the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. As I understand, these figures represent the
supplies shipped to the camp during the week of May 6 and that
similar supplies would come again on May 13, May 20, and so forth.
As I understand it the figures he is giving us now represent sub-
sistence sent in from the Quartermaster Department to this particular
camp.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the thing I would like to clear up. If that is
the correct statement of the fact, let the record so show and if not,
let us clear the atmosphere.
Mr. CosTELLO. The amount of rice that you just read into the
record was 1 week's supply?
Mr. Cavett. That is the rice ordered for that particular period to
be delivered on May 1 or before May 1.
Then as you go back further you will find, Mr. Costello, for instance,
here are your deliveries for fresh fruit for delivery on May 5, and then
on May 12, they get another order and likewise on May 19.
Mr. CosiELLO. Does the requisition show any additional shipments
of rice to Manzanar during the month of May?
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I believe this will clear up the
question:
It says: "For delivery on May 5, apples, 240 boxes."
That is on May 5. Then for delivery on May 12, 1943, it says:
"Apples, 240 boxes."
Mr. Costello. In other words, as far as apples are concerned, the
weekly allotment is 240 boxes?
Mr. Steedman. Yes. And on the same page of the requisition, it
says: "Bananas, pounds, 2,500."
That is for delivery on May 5. And then for delivery on May 12,
1943: "Bananas, pounds, 2,500 pounds."
And it goes on further down through the month and the same
situation exists week by week.
Mr. MuNDT. In case of perishable fruits, it is obvious they would
only order week by week, but on imperishable items such as sugar and
rice, I think it would be wise to have our investigator contact Man-
zanar and get us definite information as to the period of time for which
this was intended, unless you have records that indicate that.
Mr. Steedman. We will be glad to obtain that information.
Mr. Costello. Does the particular record you have before you for
May show any additional shipments of rice other than the one you
just read?
Mr. Cavett. This is the shipment they asked for in the month of
May.
UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9271
Mr. CosTELLO. And that shows 180,000 pounds of rice?
Mr. Cavett. That is correct..
Mr. CosTELLO. What was the date of delivery for that rice?
Mr. Cavett. This is to be deUvered "on or before May 1."
Mr. CosTELLO. Are there any additional requisitions for rice other
than that one item for the month of May?
Mr. Cavett. No; not on rice.
Mr. Costello. Apparently that is the supply of rice to be used for
the entire n;onth?
Mr. Gavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. How much rice did they have on hand m the ware-
houses according to the exhibit you read earlier?
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Chau-man, the figines on the amount of
goods ordered, it seems to me, are not so significant, because there are
many items which must be ordered seasonally. In other words cer-
tain types of caimed foods would be ordered earlier in the year for
delivery in May or June or July or August.
The significant figures, if we can obtain them, would be figmes as
to the total amount of consumption of each particular item of food for
a specified period.
Do you have any figures available showing the consumption of
various items of food over a certain specified period?
Mr. Cavett. Yes; I have that mformation right here.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chan-man, continuing on with the requisition
which Mr. Cavett was just reading from, I thmk will further clear the
atmosphere on the amount of food being shipped into Manzanar and
1 would like to read from the requisition dated March 5, 1943.
It says:
For delivery May 5, 1943, beef, alternate hinds and forequarters, 10,000
pounds.
Pork, pounds, 5,000.
Mutton, pounds, 2,800.
Salt porli, jowls, or squares, pounds, 1,200.
Frankfurters, pounds, 2,200 pounds.
Liver, pork, pounds, 2,000 pounds.
Then for delivery on May 12, 1943:
Beef, alternate hinds and forequarters, pounds, 10,000.
And that goes on through the date of May 26. In other words, for
delivery on May o, IMay 12, May 19, and May 26, the requisition
indicates that the project requisitioned 10,000 pomids of beef each
week.
Mr. Mundt. Per week?
Mr. Steedman. Yes; and 5,000 pounds of pork, 2,800 pounds of
mutton, and so on. I think we can point out as we go along that
was a requisition to feed 9,143 evacuees per week.
Mr. Mundt. In the case of beef, that would be a little bit more than
a pound of beef per week per evacuee.
Mr. Steedman. That is on beef alone, however. There were
other meat items as I pointed out. They ordered pork and mutton
and other meat products.
Mr. Mundt. Were there ample supplies of beef on the west coast
between IMarch and May so that beef was easily procurable by
civilians?
9272 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Steedman. IMr. Chairman, I am not in position to answer
Mr. IMimdt's question.
Mr. MuNDT. I just wondered. Beef was a scarce article in Wash-
ington and I wondered if it was scarce out here.
Mr. CosTELLO. I might state for your benefit the shortage of meat
started in California about the middle of December. These supplies,
however, that are sent into the relocation camps are obtained from
Army supplies. The Army does the purchasing for the Army as
well as the war relocation centers.
Mr. MuNDT. But the Army does not raise the beef; it buys it from
the public pool.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Army would get meat that is available and
whatever is left over would go to civilians, so a shortage of civilian
meat supplies would not indicate there was a shortage of beef in the
war relocation centers.
Mr. MuNDT. Then if that is correct, the Japanese are getting first
call on beef which is purchased through the Army Quartermaster?
Mr. CosTELLO. That is right. As far as the camps are concerned,
they are getting the same type of food that is purchased and given to
the i^.rmy itself.
Mr. MuNDT. It seems to me the O. W. I. should beam that news to
Tokyo by short-wave radio, and maybe they will treat our prisoners
a little better when they find out we are feeding their Japanese better
than our white citizens.
Mr. Steedman. I wish to make the copies of the requisitions we
have been discussing a part of the record, marked "Exhibit No. 7."
Mr. Costello. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 7" and made
a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did you obtain from *Mr. Merritt — copies of the
daily menus for the weeks May 2 to May 8, 1943?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir. I have here the menus headed, "Second
Week, Saturday, May 8, 1943." I will read three or four of them at
random: "Breakfast: Stewed peaches "
Mr. Steedman. What date is that?
Mr. Cavett. The second' week, Saturday, Maj^ 8.
Mr. Steedman. Then that would be breakfast for Saturday May 8?
Mr. Cavett. That is right. It reads as follows: "Stewed
peaches "
Mr. Steedman. Read the entire menu.
Mr. Cavett. "Stewed peaches, dry peaches, sugar," do you want
it broken down?
Mr. Steedman. I would like for you to read the breakfast menu.
Mr. Cavett. They had stewed peaches, rice, and frankfurters, hot
biscuits, evaporated milk, fresh milk, oleomargarine, and coffee.
For lunch they had macaroni salad, baked hash, stewed carrots and
turnips, bread, jam, and tea. That was for lunch.
For dinner they had soup, vegetable salad, pork chow mein, cauli-
flow^er, Japanese pickles, and tea.
Mr. MuNDT. Is there any record of a midnight snack?
Mr. Costello. Is that menu typical of the regular menus?
Mr. Cavett. Yes; from day to day. I will read two or three of
them, Mr. Costello, and then you can get the idea just how they go.
UN-AMERICAiV PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9273
On May 5, breakfast, fresh apples, oatmeal, hot biscuits, potatoes,
potatoes lyonnaise, jam, oleomargarine, coffee, fresh milk, evaporated
milk, sugar.
Then for lunch they had radishes, green onions, cold lunch meat,
potato salad, bread, jam, rice, cookies, and tea.
Then for dinner they had split-pea soup, carrot-and-raisin salad,
Japanese sukiyaka, which is composed of veal, cabbage, and other
vegetables; Japanese pickles; rice; and tea.
They all run the same way.
For breakfast on Aiaj' 2 it was stewed prunes, wheat crispies,
scrambled eggs, hashed brown potatoes, toast, oleomargarine, coffee,
fresh milk, evaporated milk, and sugar.
For lunch they had coleslaw salad, pot roast with noodles, Italian
squash, jam, bread, rice, fruit jello.
For supper they had Scotch barley soup, Spanish slaw^ salad — the
rest of that meal disappeared some place. I don't know^ what hap-
pened to the rest of the menu.
Those are the menus they submitted to us.
JNir. CosTELLO. You haven't the complete menu for that dinner?
l\lr. Cavett. No; the last page is gone.
Air. Eberharter. Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether we have first-
hand knowledge as to whether at Alanzanar these meals are served
cafeteria style, family style, or individual plate style?
Mr. Cavett. The evacuees go through cafeteria style. All camps
are run on the same basis. They take their plates and the plates are
filled up by the chefs and the Japanese tell them the equivalent of
"hit it light" or "hit it hard" and they load the plates up accordingly.
Little children who are able to get up and walk along carry then*
plates also.
They feed about 200 or so in each dining hall. They take their
plates back when they are through.
Mr. CosTELLO. I notice you read from the menu, oleomargarine.
Are they ever served butter?
l\Ir. Cavett. None of the camps receive butter for the evacuees.
They used to serve butter but they don't any more — not at the
camps.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I. wish to make these copies of the
menus a part of the record as exhibit No. 8.
Mr. Costello. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 8," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Costello. We will take a short recess at this time.
(Thereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
You may proceed, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Did you obtain a copy of a letter written by
Robert L. Brown, acting project director at Manzanar, to Mr. Dillon
S. Myer, director of the War Relocation Authority, Barr Building,
910 Seventeenth Street, Washington, D. C, dated May 8, 1943?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And attached to the letter were the following copies
of reports:
Complete inventory in pounds and dollar value of all rationed and unrationed
goods, both warehouse and kitchens.
9274 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTES
Report on all deposits and withdrawals from ration-bank account. However,
a few outstanding bills for meat that we have not had the point invoices as yet,
on the 1st, remain.
Monthly incoming report of all subsistence supplies received.
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have that letter with yoa and the attach-
ments?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you read into the record the letter which I
have just referred to?
Mr. Cavett. The next sheet is headed, (reading exhibit 9).
Manzanar relocation center, Manzanar, Calif., rationed items inventory as of
April 30, 1943. Canned and processed fruits and vegetables
of which I will read off a few for the committee:
Apples, 37,420 pounds.
Mr. Steedman. These are the rationed items from the inventory as
of April 30, 1943, contained in the warehouse?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; they are in there now: Apples, 23,841 pounds;
apricots, 20,580 pounds; blackberries, 31,247 pounds; blueberries,
14,611 pounds; fruit cocktail, 22,626 pounds; peaches, 10,979 pounds;
another brand of peaches, 20,949 pounds; canned pears, 13,855 pounds.
Another brand of canned pears, 6,979 pounds. Pineapple, sliced,
4,741 pounds; pineapple, crushed, 11,853 pounds; tomato catsup,
9,574 pounds; various brands of tomatoes, solid pack, 91,908 pounds;
tomatoes of another brand, 6,285 pounds; canned beans, 20,000 — •
total amount of baby food in cans, 39,793 cans. Sugar, 29,157 pounds.
On cracked wheat flour they had —
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Cavett, have you finished what you want
to convey to the committee with respect to the rationed foods?
Cracked wheat flour is not rationed, is it?
Mr. Steedman. That is unrationed.
Mr. Eberharter. Before we leave the rationed foods, do you have
the totals of the rationed foods that they have on hand?
Mr. Cavett. Yes. The point value of processed foods issued from
warehouse
Mr. Eberharter. What I would like to know is the total inventory
of the rationed foods on hand as of April 30 and the point value of
the rationed foods on hand as of that date, and divide that by 9,143
and see what it amounts to for each individual.
Mr. Cavett. The total rationed items inventoried in dollars and
cents is $58,419.82.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you have the total number of points of
rationed foods?
Mr. Cavett. No.
Mr. Eberharter. You haven't the total number of points that
they have on hand as of April 30?
Mr. Cavett. Here is the list of the amounts issued from the ware-
house during that month.
Mr. Eberharter. How many points?
Mr. Cavett. During that month they used up 558,461 points.
Mr. Eberharter. That is 558,461 points for 9,143 persons; is that
correct?
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLo. How many points for meat, et cetera?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITTElS 9275
IMr. Cavett. 637,448 points for meats and fats and butter.
Mr. CosTELLO. How does that differ from the 558,000? Is that
canned foods and things of that sort?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; in addition to the meat which is 637,448
points. There are two different items there.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, two items of stamps? Is that
correct?
Mr. Cavett. Two items of stamps, yes; one red and the other blue.
Mr. Eberharter. That is about 50 points per person for the ra-
tioned, processed foods per month for the month of April. Is that not
correct?
Mr. Cavett. I haven't figured it.
Mr. Eberharter. That is the thing I wanted to get — the number
of points per person for the month of April. According to my figures
it was about 50 points per person.
Mr. CosTELLO. And that is only on the processed foods?
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. Costello. Now, for the points on butter, meats, and things
of that character, the value there would be approximately 75 points
per person?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; 637,448.
Mr. Costello. And about 50 points per month on the other goqds?
Mr. Cavett. That is right.
Mr. Costello. So it would be about 75 points per person for the
meats and butter and fats?
Mr. Cavett. They have it rationed on meat, butter, and cheese all
listed, and set out.
^^r. Eberharter. What I would reall}^ like to have, and it probably
would take some time to work it out, is the number of rod stamps,
as they call them, red ration coupons used per person a month and
also the number of blue stamp points per person per month during
the month of April.
You will probabW need some time to figure that out, but if we have
it accurately we can make a comparison as to how many ration points
the evacuees at Manzanar are using in comparison with what indi-
vidual citizens are using. I think j^ou can vfork that out later and
put it in the record.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Eberharter, we can request that from the camp
director by letter and insert tlie letter in the record at this point.
Would that be your suggestion?
Mr. Eberharter. That would be all right. That would give me
the information I want.
Mr. Steedman. Would you want that for the month of April only?
Mr. Eberharter. Any specified period; it doesn't make much
difference. We have the record here for April and you might get that
infonnation for the month of April.
jMr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to introduce in evidence
a copy of the letter we have been discussing, together with the attach-
ments thereto, and mark it "Exhibit No. 9,"
Mr. Costello. "\A'ithout objection, it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 9," and made
a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Does that complete the information which you
secured from Mr. Merritt regarding the subsistence at Manzanar?
9276 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Cavett. It does; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. I might make this comment, before you proceed to
another mattc^r, that the committee is going into the food situation at
Manzanar simply to get a part of the over-all picture of the investiga-
tion of the camp and to learn conditions there.
It might be stated for the purposes of the record that the committee
feels that the Japanese should be well treated and well fed in these
camps.
It is not our purpose in going into the record to find out exactly
how much food they have, but to make sure they are properly cared
for and properly treated.
I think that is something every citizen in the country would want
to see, that the Japanese were given appropriate treatment in these
camps, and I think the testimony we have had today indicates that.
However, we are equally interested in seeing to it that there is no
waste or excess amount of food being allotted to the camps, over and
above what they noraially and properly should have.
You may proceed with the next subject.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt give you a copy of a certain in-
struction issued by the War Relocation Authority in Washington,
which is designated as "Administrative Instruction No. 85," dated
February 26, 1943, subject: "Trial and Punishment of Offenses
Against Law and Order in Relocation Centers"?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have a copy of that instruction before you?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt advise you those instructions
were being followed by the project officials at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make this copy of in-
structions No. 85, a part of the record, and marked "Exhibit No. 11."
Mr. Costello. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 11," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt give you a copy of a police report,
dated May 10, 1943, covering the day sliift at Manzanar, the swing
shift, and the night shift?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I wish to offer this copy of the police report of
Manzanar in evidence, for the purpose of having the record indicate
the type of report that is filed with the project director by the internal
police at Manzanar, and ask it be marked "Exhibit No. 12."
Mr. Costello. It is so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 12," and made
a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did you obtain from Mr. Merritt a mimeographed
copy of a Manual of Internal Security at Manzanar, dated January
1943, together with a copy of traffic regulations for Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have that manual with you today?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to offer a copy of the manual
of Internal Security, together with a copy of the traffic regulations for
Manzanar in evidence as exhibit 13.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9277
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 13," and made »
a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did you receive from Mr. Mcrritt a copy of a
list as of May 12, 1943, setting forth the names of the personnel,
that is, the office and -field workers, comprising the community
welfare staff?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. Do you have that list before you today?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make this list a part of
the record and mark it "Exhibit 14."
Air. Costello. Without objection, it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 14," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt give you a copy of the Manzanar
Junior-Senior High School course of study?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. What are the studies that they have?
Air. Cavett. It is listed in this exhibit.
Air. Steedman. Air. Chan-man, I would like to read into the record
a portion of the course of study as given by the Alanzanar Junior-
Senior High School, and I am quoting from that exhibit which inci-
dentally, is exhibit No. 15. Before reading the exliibit, I would like
to offer it in evidence.
Air. Costello. It will be received.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 15," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman (reading):
The Manzanar schools are divided into an elementary system, grades 1 to 6,
inclusive, 910 students, and a Junior-Senior High School, grades 7 to 12, inclusive,
1,260 students.
The elementary schools are conducted in 10 different barracks buildings scat-
tered over the camp. The high school is located in one block of barracks where
teachers and other appointive personnel are also housed.
The schools are operated under a memorandum of understanding executed
with the California State Department of Education, and the courses of study,
standards, and requirements conform to those of the state.
Special emphasis is given to trade and vocational training which is now being
developed on an apprenticeship basis and offers opportunities in carpentry,
agriculture, commercial subjects, domestic service, nurse and ward aide training,
and in the needle work trade.
Teachers are appointed under civil service and meet with the State require-
ments for a teaching certificate in California.
The remainder of this exhibit lists the various courses of study at
the Alanzanar schools, and gives the curriculum. Did Air. Alerritt
give you a copy of a memorandum captioned, "Brief Occupational
Background of Departmental Heads at Alanzanar Relocation Center"?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir. This list shows the background of the var-
ious chiefs, such as the director, Ralph Alerritt, acting assistant di-
rector, Robert L. Brown; senior administrative officer, Edwin H,
Hooper; project attorney, Robert B. Throckmorton; community
services. Airs. Lucy W. Adams; agricultural superintendent, Horace
R. AlcConnell; senior engineer, Hervey Brown, Jr.; associate fire pro-
tection officer, Frank Hon; manufacturing superintendent, Bertis R.
Chamberlain; chief steward, Joseph R. Winchester; chief internal
62626 — 43— vol. 15 29
9278 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
security, John W. Gilkey; and chief counsellor community welfare,
^ Margaret D'llle.
It also shows their schooling and past positions.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make this memorandum
a part of the record marked "Exhibit 16."
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 16," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt furnish you with a list of or-
ganized clubs and organizations at Manzanar, said list setting forth the
names of the organizations or clubs, the age groups, the sponsors, and
functions?
Mr. Cavett, Yes, sir. That is headed, "Manzanar Secondary
Education, School Clubs, and Organizations" as of May 12, 1943.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make this document a
part of the record and mark it "Exhibit 17"?
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 17," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt give you a list of churches and
church-sponsored gi^oups at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes. This list is headed "Churches and church
gi'oups sponsored clubs at Manzanar." It is exhibit 18, and it gives
a list of the various chmxhes and the names of the officers and their
functions.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I wish to make tliis document a
part of the record, marked "Exhibit 18."
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection it is so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "No. 18," and made a
part of the record.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Does the church list indicate the number of persons
belonging to each denomination?
Mr. Cavett. No. Just the officers, I think, and so forth — the
officers and directors.
Mr. Costello. And the numbers following the chm-ches indicate
the location of the church by block number?
Mr. Cavett. By block number, I imagine, yes.
Mr. Costello. But you obtained no information as to the member-
ship in the various blocks?
Mr. Cavett. No. He just gave us a list of the officers and leaders
of the congregations.
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Steedman, did you make any inquiry or
endeavor to ascertain what proportion of the evacuees in any of
these camps are Buddhists or Shintoists or those who belong to the
more modern religions?
Mr. Steedman. We don't have those statistics, Mr. Eberharter,
but we could request them from the various camps.
Mr. Eberharter. It would seem to me it might be of some
importance to know how many, approximately, have embraced the
religions of the Western Hemisphere.
Mr. Steedman. We will request that informat'on from each camp
director.
Mr. Eberharter. They can't give us the exact number, but I
should think they would have an approximate number.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9279
Mr. ]MiTNDT. Will you do that not only for Buddhism but any or all
the other oriental religions?
Mr. Steedman. Wouldn't it be a good idea to request a religious
break-down of all the affiliations of persons released from the various
centers?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes, including the category that belong to no church
at all.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt furnish you with a copy of a
quest ion-and-answer interview with Senator Chandler of the Senate
committee, had on March 3 with the staff at the Manzanar relocation
center regarding the War Relocation Authority's handling of the relo-
cation areas?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please read into the record those excerpts
from the interview which bear on our investigation?
Mr. Cavett. The director of the camp and I w^ere discussing the
purchase of water which is used in the camp, and he said it was best
explained in the Chandler report, w^liich I shall read from page 5 of the
Chandler report. The director told me as follows:
I would like to say that the property upon which ^'e are located belongs to the
city of Los Angeles. The Army made the lease and the War Relocation Authority
is a lessee. The price of water and electricity are at excessive rates: $4.32 an
acre-foot for water flowing down hill and as high as $16 an acre-foot for pumped
water, which could not be paid by any farmer, or even the Army.
He further said:
At my farm about 20 miles up the valley I pay $5 an acre a year for land with
water. ~ The city guarantees nothing in the way of water supply except that I can
have all the water from the creek to irrigate my farm. But the Army came to
Manzanar as a purchaser of water. The city of Los Angeles charged the Army
rates which are charged in Los Angeles to domestic purchasers of water in Los
Angeles. My rate is $5, where Manzanar pays $35 per acre.
Mr, CosTELLO. To whom does Manzanar pay for water?
Mr. Cavett. To the city of Los Angeles.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was that a contract between the W. R. A. and the
city of Los Angeles?
Mr. Cavett. Evidently; yes. He said they have an agreement
drawn up where they pay that and he said he was going to see if he
couldn't have that rectified. He said the water situation was terrible
Mr. CosTELLO. The Army is only paying $5?
Mr. Cavett. No; he is paying $5 and the Army is paying $35.
Mr. Eberharter. That is, the W. R. A. is paying $35?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; $35.
Mr. MuNDT. Who signed that agreement? Mr. Dillon Myer?
Mr. Cavett. It doesn't say who signed it. It was all arranged for
and that agreement is still in force and effect and he was trying to
bring it to the attention of the various officials and see if they wouldn't
at least allow him to proceed to have that lease canceled, or that agree-
ment canceled, and pay the same as other people mstead of that
excessive rate.
He said it would break even the Army to carry on at that rate.
Mr. Costello. Did you inquire into the nature of the lease arrange-
ment whereby W. R. A. is using the ground for the camp?
(No response.)
9280 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Is the city of Los Angeles receiving any rental for the
use of that ground?
Mr. Cavett. They told me in all the camps that the agreements
and leases were all confidential matters and were in the confidential
files in Washington. They don't have those in the camps.
Mr. MuNDT. This committee shall endeavor to turn the spotlight
of public opinion on those confidential files.
Mr. Cavett. In every instance when we wanted any information
like that, we were told we would have to get it from Washington.
Mr. CosTELLO. None of the camps have any information reararding
the natiu-e or terms of the ground leases where the camps are situated?
Mr. Cavett. No. They just tell you the land was purchased or
else it was leased, or that it belongs to the Bureau of Reclamation.
Mr. MuNDT. Those negotiations were done through the Washington
office?
Mr. Cavett. Yes; so far as I know.
Mr. CosTELLO. You would not know whether the charge for the
electricity and water might be considered as part compensation for
use of the ground, in view of the fact you do not know whether there is
a ground lease?
Mr. Cavett. No; that information is in Washington.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to quote from page 12
of the transcript
Mr. MuNDT. Pardon me, just a moment, Mr. Steedman, but I
wonder if you could determine and insert in the record at this point,
from the records of the city of Los Angeles, how much they have re-
ceived in payment for electricity and water and other rental fees for
the use of the land at \i anzanar?
Mr. Steedman. I shall write the city of Los Angeles and will re-
quest that information.
Mr. CosTELLO. The bureau of water and power should be able to
furnish the information as to how much is being paid there and the
basis on which the rates are charged.
Ivir. MuNDT. That should clear up whether the rental rates are
part compensation for use of the land.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read from the
memorandum that Mr. Cavett has been quoting from — that is, the
interview between Senator Chandler and his party, and the officials
at Manzanar.
I quote:
Senator Chandler. Does Japan want these Kibei to come back?
Mr. Merritt. No. A good many of them were sent here for a purpose.
Mr. Malone.
I believe Mr. Malone was an employee of the Chandler committee.
Mr. Malone. Can you pick them out?
Mr. Merritt. We know most of them.
Mr. Malone. Who did Japan ask for?
Mr. Merritt. Among others, Japan asked for Tokie and other outspoken pro-
Americans. Mr Myer has these lists of people asked for by Japan.
Senator Chandler. I would rather get it from Mr. Merritt.
Mr. McCoRMACK (Federal Bureau of Investigation). Could we have a copy of
the Kibei for the F. B. I.?
Mr. Merritt. For lists of repatriates refer to the State Department.
Mr. CosTBLLO. That would indicate that possibly the F. B. I. did
not have a list of the Kibei located at that camp.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9281
Mr. Steedman. On that date at that camp, March 4, 1943.
Mr. CosTELLO. It tends to indicate that the Government has very
little information rc^rarding the background of the Japanese.
ivir. IviuNDT. And it further indicates the F. B. I, is being asked to
pass on individuals to be released to civilian life but are furnished with
no information resrarding those individuals.
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 12:30 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m., of
the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(Thereupon, at 2 p. m., the hearing was resumed, pursuant to the
taking of the noon recess.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Steedman. Before proceeding further with Mr. Cavett, I
would like to call Mr. Buzzell.
TESTIMONY OF J. W. BUZZELL, SECRETARY, LOS ANGELES
CENTRAL LABOR COUNCIL
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLo. Will you state your name to the reporter, please?
Mr. Buzzell. J. W. Buzzell.
Mr. Steedman. What is your address? ■
Mr. Buzzell. Mj home address is on West Sixty-fifth Street, 1225,
and my business address is the Labor Temple.
Mr. Steedman. You are secretary of the Los Angeles Central Labor
Council?
Mr. Buzzell. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have a statement which you want to make
to the committee?
Mr. Buzzell. Yes. I came here because our organization, which
represents all the American Federation of Labor unions in the city,
have an interest in the subject matter in which the committee is
inquiring into.
We made inquiry as to whether you would be interested in hearing
our opinion and we were invited to be here, I imagine, motivated much
by the same reasoning that most citizens in the West are.
The labor council made some inquiry into the situation and has
expressed its belief, because of its knowledge generally of things, that
the Japanese should not be here.
Our official statement was written to Mr. Russell T. Robinson,
Director of the War Relocation Authority, WTiitcomb Hotel Building,
San Francisco, Calif., on the first day of this month.
The letter is as follows:
Mr. Russell T. Robinson,
Director, Mar Relocation Authority,
Whitcomb Hotel Building, San Francisco, Calif.
Dear Sir: The Los Angeles Central Labor Council, representing approximately
200 American Federation of Labor unions in this city and with a membership of
more than 100,000, feels called upon to express itself to you and to your com-
mi-jsion its opinion concerning the current problem of handling Japanese residents,
both citizen and alien, in this country during the duration of the war.
To say that we are concerned about it states it very mildly. First, we are
convinced that there is no one who is capable of judging entirely whether a person
9282 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
of Japanese ancestry would or would not be loyal to this country if put to the test
during the war with Japan, and therefore we are opposed to taking any chances
by allowing Japanese, whether civilians or members of the armed forces of the
country, whether citizens or noncitizens, being allowed to come to any of the
Pacific Coast States, and more particularly to southern California, where niost
of the Japanese were at the time of the beginning of the war.
Those who advocate that Japanese in the military service be allowed to visit
their "homes" on the Pacific coast during leave surely cannot understand all the
circumstances. To begin with, the Japanese no longer have any homes to come
here and visit. Second, the Japanese all look alike, and we are of the opinion
that nothing could suit the Japanese Government any better than to have Ameri-
can people on this coast become used to seeing Japanese in military uniform.
The Pacific and the Mexican ports cover a wide expanse of territory and offer an
excellent chance, in spite of all the surveillance that can be exerted, for submarines
to land Japanese, and if the people in this vicinity, and particularly southern
California, become used to seeing Japanese in military uniform, it would be im-
possible to detect Japanese, who spoke good English, and thousands of them do,
even in Japan, and who might be landed here and put on American military
uniforms, and then circulate freely, and no one could tell the difference. That
would be highly dangerous.
Next, we think that General De Witt's statement that "A Jap is a Jap," is
complete. It tells the whole story, and we are of the opinion that for every good
one, and undoubtedly there must be some good ones, there are a hundred bad
ones who would stop at nothing if they had an opportunity to do something
against this country and for their own.
To illustrate this, I would like to tell you what was told me by a school teacher
who taught school in the Terminal Island area of this city, a place almost entirely
populated by Japanese fishermen and their families. She had one boy in her class
that she had taught from the time he had started in kindergarden until he gradu-
ated from the grade schools, and she had taken an interest in him even after he
had gone to high school.
In that time he had taken an intensive interest in American history and
American traditions, and had been a member of the Boy Scouts, and had in
every way indiacted that he had thoroughly become adapted by America. But
when the evacuation of the Japanese from Terminal Island took place, the
authorities discovered in his room in his home short-wave radio sets, military
cameras, maps of the whole area and its defenses, and a great many other things,
all of which indicated he had made an intensive study of them for the purpose of
aiding Japan, and if a boy of a third generation of American-born Japanese
family could so completely fool a person who had taken an intensive interest in
him during his entire career, certainly they can fool those who only know them
casually, or as a result of inquiry or investigation.
The American Federation of Labor yields to no one in their zealous jealousy
of our civil rights that go with the Constitution of the United States, and espe-
cially the Bill of Rights, and we, of course, look with a great deal of concern over
the violation of these rights by any lawful citizen of this country. In addition
thereto, we are not much given to yielding to expedient. However, we feel that
in a war such as this one, where this country will either live or die depending
upon its results, it will be far better to make amends to such of its Japanese
citizens as may be unjustly dealth with, than to run the risk of in»^iting certain
disaster in order to avoid doing that injury.
We therefore insist that your commission do not do anything that would
permit Japanese to come to the Pacific coast area for the duration of the war.
We have one other matter in this connection that we would especially direct
to your attention. It happens that we knew a number of American-born Japanese
prior to the war, and we know, also, that many of them were ardent followers of
the Communist Party, and were ardent believers in the theory that the American
form of government should be overturned, and the only practical way to do that
was by a violent revolution. We are not talking in generalities when we make
this statement. We know some of them personally, and one of them we did know
was involved in the December 7 riots at Manzanar. We insist that these
Japanese should be kept in concentrated groups where they can be kept under
surveillance, and not be allowed to wander at will, and that these groups be
located in the central portions of our country.
In view of the great need of agricultural pursuits, at which the Japanese have
proven themselves to be excellent, we believe that they should be put to work,
under supervision, at agricultural work, and that they should be paid by the
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9283
United States Government, and all they produce should be used by the United
States Government to feed the military forces in this country. We would be
opposed to allou ing such Japanese to be employed on privately owned farms where
the products of their work would be sold in the open market in competition with
farmers N\ho do not have such Japanese labor, or cheap labor, unless the Japanese
were paid the full rate of \\ages ordinarily paid farm help in the locality where
they may be.
We close with the statement that the labor movement is positively opposed to
any Japanese being allowed freedom of movement anywhere in the United States,
and equally opposed to their being allowed to return to the Pacific coast under
any circumstances.
That completes my statement.
Chairman Costello. Do you have any further statement you
want to add?
Mr. BuzzELL. None, except I make a direct statement there as to
the Japanese communistic activities.
In 1938 we organized a number of occupations — people in occupa-
tions into labor unions here in Los Angeles, occupations in which a
number of Japanese were employed, more particularly wholesale
produce markets, and in the organization of those unions we foimd
numbers of young Japanese, both men and women, boys and girls
some of them, who were very ardent Communists. One of them we
expelled from our union for maldng a speech that he made openly,
adv^ocating the rabble-rousing riots as being the only way for the com-
mon people, and especially like people of his own kind who had lived
in slavery all their lives through all history, as the only way for them to
accomplish anything — mob action.
His name was Uno.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know his first name?
Mr. Buzzell. I will have to stop and look for it when I return to
the office. It is in some old records. I can find it and I will give it
to 3^ou.
We were much concerned with that and our point is, if the committee
is interested in it, that out of the younger Japanese, even though they
may not hold a feeling of loyalty to Japan, they are equally bad, in
our opinion, because of their Communist leanings.
Mr. Costello. To what do you attribute that communistic activ-
ity among the Japanese? Is it very widespread?
Mr. Buz^ELL. We thought it was — not in the degi-ee that that
might sound as to the proportion of the whole, but there were lots of
them and man}^ of them belong to the young Communist League,
and things of that kind.
Mr. Costello. Has an attempt been made by the Communist
groups in this country to directly bring the Japanese people into their
activities?
Mr. Buzzell. Oh; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Are the Communist organizers mostly Japanese, or
are they wliite Communist organizers?
Mr. Buzzell. Well, the original organizers, I imagine, were white-
skinned— I don't think they are white.
Mr. MuNDT. They were Caucasians?
Mr. Buzzell. That is it.
Mr. Costello. Most of the Communists among the Japanese
would be the yoimger element?
Mr. Buzzell. That is right.
Mr. Costello. And not the older people?
9284 UlSr-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. BuzzELL. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you think there is quite a menace there?
That there are sufficient numbers of Japanese who are Communists
to make a real threat?
Mr. BuzzELL. Yes. I think there again is the effort on the part
of the Communists to organize minority groups who are citizens of
the United States, but racial minorities who have constitutional
rights the same as every other citizen of this country, but with whom
and concerning whom it is an easy matter to raise the question of
racial discrimination, and in the earnest belief, in my opinion, and I
think the facts and history support it, that aroused minority groups
furnish excellent material on which to base revolutionary movements.
Mr. CosTELLO. All you have to do is arouse that feeling in a
minority group and you can stu' up general disorder?
Mr. BuzzELL. I think they caused nine-tenths of the trouble in
the zoot-suit business here.
Mr. CosTELLO. I was going to ask you if you think they had
some hand in that?
Mr. Buzi.ELL. Unquestionably — -we think they did.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you any definite proof of the fact that the
Communists have been active in the zoot-suit activities?
Mr. BuzzELL. The onh^ definite proof we have, after putting things
together — such things are hard to prove because there are so many
intangibles, but the Communists organized one of their front com-
mittees when the first zoot-suit crowd was arrested for the Sleepy
Hollow murder cases, I think it was.
They have circulated the Mexican colony with pamphlets; they
have held meetings, rabble-rousing meetings, and they have con-
vinced a great many Mexicans who are citizens of the United States
but who have lived all their lives in the Mexican colony and are not
thoroughly assimilated, they have convinced them that a large part
of the prosecution was persecution of these kids because they were
Mexicans and not because of the crimes they were alleged to have
comm-itted.
I gave to the O'Leary committee such material as I had, including
copies of a letter that was sent out by the American-Mexican Youth
Defense Committee when that was organized.
The stationery upon which it was printed and as most of those
front committees are presented, it had a great many nam.es on it of
citizens of this community that no one would suspect of being Com-
munists.
It also had a number of Communists, including the secretary of the
comrrittee, who is LaRue McCormack, a Communist woman.
Anyone who studies it will find out how easy it is to understand
how they get those names, because they go by many steps before the
final party gets to the one whose name they want, so that that person
would never have a suspicion where his name is eventually going to
show up.
That is the way they do that.
But another thing I want to explain about this is, in nearly all activi-
ties of that kind where the Government itself takes any interest, it
somehow or other happens that some Communist finds his way on the
Government pay roll and he becomes one of the leaders in that^ — -what-
ever branch of Communist activities that his job might touch. And
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTn-ITIES 9285
in this minority group of the War Production Board, I think there are
a number of them.
One in particular was here but he has gone to the Marines. I
think that is the Marines' bad luck. That was a fellow by the name of
Nunn. He is known to have been a Communist engaged in Com-
munistic activities in New York.
I am not sure of this but I am told that he was a contributor to the
Daily "Worker — a writer contributor; that he participated in a number
of Communist union activities in the C. I. O. Streetcar Men's Union
in New York, and in Joe Curran's Seamen's Union, and he came here
and he allows his name to go on the stationery of these Communist
front committees with his Government title.
He made speeches at the mass meetings that they had out in the
Mexican colony and in the Negro colony.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, even though the Communists may
not have originated the idea of the zoot-suit warfare, they undoubtedly
took advantage of the situation to propagandize and stir it up further?
Mr. BuzzELL. I don't think they initiated the wearing of zoot
suits; no.
Mr. CosTELLO. Getting back to the Japanese again: Were many
Japanese affiliated with labor unions?
Kir. BuzzELL. At one time I imagine we must have had 1,000 of
them in unions here in Los Angeles.
jMr. CosTELLO. What type of unions were those?
Mr. BuzzELL. They were sales boys and girls in the retail produce
stores — green goods — groceries.
Mr. CosTELLO. Clerks?
Mr. BuzzELL. Clerks, yes; and workers in the produce markets —
some in restaurants but not many; and in scattering occupations.
Most of them either related or were close to the food industry.
Mr. CosTELLO. There were no Japanese unions in connection with
the fishing industry?
Mr. BuzzELL. There was in San Pedro a union at one time, and
there was a peculiar circumstance. Wlien the C. I. O. first broke out
on the Pacific coast, as you perhaps know they broke out on the
water front, and there was a definite attempt made to capture all the
water-front activities, including transportation and control of the
food production that originated in or in which the hiindhng of it at
the water front made it important.
In the fish canneries where we had about 3,000 members that took
place and after considerable maneuvermg, which I don't believe your
committee would be particularly mterested in, the C. I. O. and the
Communists worked out of that union.
Among them was a fellow by the name of Jack Moore, who has
become recognized, in spite of his j^outh as being one of the smartest
and best organizers the Communist Party ever has had.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were there many Japanese in that union?
Mr. BuzzELL. There were lots of Japanese in that union. They
worked in the canneries down at Terminal Island and then when the
fishermen got drawn into that vortex between the C. I. O. and the
Communists, and the A. F. of L. unions, the Japanese for some reason
or other divided from the southern European group, the Slavs and
others, and that latter group went to the C. I. O. and the Japanese
stayed with the American Federation of Labor which put us in a posi-
9286 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
tion down there of having a real war on our hands and injunction
suits and other things.
But we had the one Japanese fishermen's union for awhile and had
about eleven hundred members in it.
Mr. MuNDT. Eleven hundred?
Mr. BuzzELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. All Japanese?
Mr. BuzzELL. Practically all Japanese. There were a few others
but most of them were Japanese.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words there were some labor locals of almost
100 percent Japanese?
Mr. BuzzELL. That one was about 100 percent.
Mr. CosTELLO. The opposition of the American Federation of
Labor then, to the return of the Japanese to the Pacific coast, is not
based at all upon labor competition or anythmg of that kind?
Mr. BuzzELL. Not at all.
Mr. CosTELLO. That has been indicated at times but you do not
feel they would in any way interfere with the other workers in that
area?
Mr. BuzzELL. No ; I don't think so.
Mr. CosTELLO. Your opposition is based upon the fact you don't
believe it would be safe for the war effort to allow them to return?
Mr. BuzzELL. That is right. We think it is entirely unwise to do
that.
Mr. CosTELLO. And in recommending that they be distributed in
the Middle West, you emphasize the point they should be in con-
centrated groups?
Mr. BuzzELL. Yes ; keep them under surveillance.
Mr. CosTELLO. The only way you recommend they be release from
the camps, would be in large numbers where they would be confined to
a specific area?
Mr. BuzzELL. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. And not be allowed to move freely about the
country and at random?
Mr. BuzzELL. That is right. And we make one more point: We
think it is a dangerous — -our movement thinks it is a dangerous thing
to tamper with the civil rights of any citizen, and some of these Japs
are citizens, without due process of law, but we thinlv we are in an
emergency and if such a course is followed and injustice might have
been done to some of them, but we think it can be made up to them
after the war, and if they are loyal Americans we think they ought to
stand it and take it in good faith.
Mr. CosTELLO. If they want to be loyal to the country, they should
be willing to make a sacrifice at this time to promote the war effort?
Mr. BuzzELL. That is right.
Mr. Eberharter. You say there are 200 locals in the Central
Federation of which you are secretary?
Mr. BuzzELL. Nearly 200. There are a few A. F. of L. local unions
not affiliated.
Mr. Eberharter. Do any of those local unions exclude Japanese
from membership?
]\lr. Buzzell. Most unions up to about 10 years ago very definitely
had an oriental bar in their constitutions, but during the last 10 or 12
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9287
years a ^voat many of them removed it or removed it sufficiently so
that on the Pacific coast they coukl be taken into our unions.
I have in mind the hotel and restaurant employees and a number of
others. They didn't get into many trades. The Retail Clerks'
International Union opened its door so they could come in; the obvious
reason for that was we were expanding our organizations in a number
of trades in the field where the Japanese were largely employed.
Mr. Eberh.\rter. You say that a fair proportion of the Japanese
workmen were members of some organized labor group?
Mr. BuzzELL. No, no; I wouldn't say that at all, in proportion to
the whole number of them; no. They were already in the industries
which we were taking in and where we found them — for instance in
the cheaper restaurants east of Main Street, where some of the restau-
rants were run by Japanese and employed Japanese. That group we
had just about organized and then for internal reasons it didn't quite
materialize.
Mr. Eberharter. Suppose I put the question this way: In those
occupations where the workers were fairly well organized, was there a
fair proportion of the Japanese in that particular occupation members
of the union?
Mr. BuzzELL. If they were in there ; yes. The answer to that ques-
tion would be, yes.
Mr. Eberharter. You would say then that the Japanese had no
aversion to joining the labor movement?
Mr. BuzzELL, Well, it wasn't — I don't know whether the answer
to that would be yes or no. It wasn't an easy job and I would like
to qualify my first answer. Among the grocery clerks we didn't have
a majority; we had a little less than a majority in the grocery stores,
but we run into the typical Japanese tradition in our organizing work;
they wouldn't go contrary to the advice of their oldsters. That is
what they would tell us. When they went home to talk about it, they
would be advised by their parents and grandparents to leave this
American thing alone.
In most cases they were also employed by Japanese. In most of
the places we broke into they were mostly employed by Japanese so
we had to meet that same condition from two points of view, first,
from the employer, and then from the traditional family obedience.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do they have any labor organizations comparable
to our unions in Japan?
Mr. BuzzELL. They had a federation of labor in Japan up to about
1934, when the Government moved into it. There was a delegate
who used to come here to this country to attend our State federation
of labor conventions. He was supposed to come in September, but
he didn't arrive and we have never heard from him since. We don't
know what happened to him.
I think that was in 1934.
Mr. Eberharter. Generally speaking, it is rather difficult to or-
ganize the Japanese into the labor movement. •
Mr. BuzzELL. I think it could have been possible, but I think it
would have been impossible if they were employed alone where there
was no contact, but in the places where we did organize them, for in-
stance, in the market, we had almost the complete organization of the
Negroes and Mexicans and we had the teamsters organized and had
9288 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
a great many that fitted in which made it easier there, and the same
thing was true in restaurants.
Mr. MuNDT. It is one of the recommendations of your group, as I
understand it, that the Japanese be relocated from these presert
camps into civilian life in the Middle West?
Mr. BuzzELL. No; not in civilian life. We think they should be
taken far away from military locations and power dams. There are
not many of such installations in the Mississippi Valley, and we think
there is plenty of land there where they could be taken and where
their talents as farmers could be used and they should be kept con-
centrated.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean kept in concentration camps?
Mr. BuzzELL. Call them "concentration camps" if you wish, but
we mean places where they can't wander away and are under sur-
veillance.
Mr. MuNDT. I live in that country and I don't know of any area
where there is productive land available for such purposes —where
you could put them in big blocks or groups such as you mention.
In my particular State we have a small contingent of Japanese
working in the sugar-beet fields, and during the seasonal period, that
worked out rather satisfactorily. But on a permanent relocation
basis, even for the duration of the war, there just wouldn't be the
agricultural opportunity where you could move a large number of
Japanese into such areas.
Mr. BuzzELL. Well, I am not prepared to offer a solution for aU
the problems in the world by any manner of means, but it seems to
me from letters I get from relatives in Minnesota, a great many farms
went begging up there for somebody to work them.
Mr. MuNDT. There are farms where they can use additional labor,
but the point I am trying to make is your organization is opposed to
the release of Japanese into areas where they can be placed a dozen
here and fifteen there and one hundred somewhere else, or do you feel
if they are located in the Middle West that would be an appropriate
method to follow?
Mr. BuzzELL. If they could properly be kept under surveillance.
It is our suggestion, definitely, that they be, well, almost kept in con-
finement so far as wandering around is concerned.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words you don't think they should be released
unless they are kept under surveillance?
Mr. BuzzELL. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Wherever they are?
Mr. BuzzELL. That is right — ^constant surveillance.
Mr. MuNDT. If they are kept under constant surveillance wherever
they are relocated, wouldn't they be just as safe and secure in the
Imperial Valley as they would be in the Mississippi River Valley?
Mr. BuzzELL. Well, I am not so sure of that. I am not an alarmist
and neither are the people whom I represent, but it would only take
one or two clever Japanese to escape into the Imperial Valley and
they could just raise plenty of hell around some of those canals and
dams. , .
Mr. MuNDT. I think that is true, but I thmk it is equally true
around the power dams of the Middle West and around the airplane
factories.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9289
Mr. BuzzELL. There are not so many of those. I think as a
practical thing a half dozen Japanese who might escape could not do
so much damage in a factory where the damage would have to be done
more widespread.
Air. ISiUNDT. As a matter of fact, the principal distinction that you
feel exists between the release of Japanese to the Pacific coast and the
release of the Japanese to the Aliddle West, is the fact that you have
a feeling that the attitude of the people in the Middle West would be
■ more receptive to the Japanese than it would be out here?
Mr. BuzzELL. ISo; I don't know. I have only been east twice
since the war started. I wouldn't know but I would imagine the
people in the Aiiddle West would not welcome them anymore than we
do. I know that is true of Arizona. That is my opinion. I have no
means of knowing whether I am right or wrong.
Ai.r. MuNDT. \ou base it strictly on a feeling it is more secure for
the national interest to have them in the Middle West?
Mr. BuzzELL. They are here in America and nobody has suggested
a way to get rid of them. You can't dump them into the river. You
have to put them somewhere but I think the farther away from actual
war activities and such locations as power dams, the better off we
would be.
]\ir. MuNDT. I would like to take you on a personally conducted
tour of the defense industries of the Middle West.
Mr. BuzzELL. I have been in some of them.
Mr. MuNDT. There is a tremendous development there as there is
all over the country, and it is just as important, of course, to preserve
production in Omaha or Rapid City or Sioux Falls or xViiimeapolis or
Chicago as it is in San Diego or San Francisco or Los Angeles.
Mr. BuzzELL. Did you ever stop to think what could be done if a
dam was to be blown up? For instance, the one out here in Holly-
wood. It wouldn't take much to shoot that dam off. That could be
done quickly, and it could destroy everything from Hollywood Boule-
vard several miles wide clear to the ocean. While sabotage of a plant
has to be done here and there and everywhere, but that could be done
in one place. That is our thought about the West.
Mr. :\iUNDT. In that specific connection, is your organization satis-
fied with the manner in which the present relocation centers are being
administered from the standpoint of sifting of Japanese in and out of
the camps who are supposed to be permanently residing there?
Mr. BuzzELL. No; we are not at all agreed on that,. that t"hat is safe,
good, or what was intended.
The people that were sent to Manzanar, if that was a good place
to send them on short notice, that is where they ought to stay —that
is what they were sent there for. They might just as well let them
run loose if they are going to let them wander around the country.
Mr. CosTELLO. We also had testimony before the committee that
the Japanese located at Boston have access by an overnight journey
to some highly important reservoirs and dams and the Japanese are
quite frequently out of the camp for a night or two and then come
back again, with no check made as to where they are at night.
Mr. Buzz ELL. I would just as soon— I would feel just as safe if
they took the camps where I read about in the newspapers, where
they brought a lot of prisoners from Tunisia, I would just as soon turn
9290 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
those fellows loose to wander around as the Japanese, even though
born and raised in this country. There may be some good Japanese
but I don't think anybody can tell who the good ones are.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you know whether or not the national
governing body of the American Federation of Labor has taken any
stand with respect to the relocation centers?
Mr. BuzzELL. I do not know whether they have or not. The only
opportunity they would have to pass a resolution would be in the
May meeting in Washington. I saw no such thing in the papers and
we haven't any minutes of it yet that would indicate that they did.
I am of the opinion they did not.
Mr. Eberharter. Have they had a meeting lately?
Mr. BuzzELL. The week beginning May 17. They meet again in
Chicago in August.
Mr. CosTELLO. Any further questions?
Mr. Steedman. No questions.
Mr. Costello. Thank you very much, Mr. Buzzell, for appearing
before the committee. We appreciate the additional testimony
which you have made available to us.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Costello. You may call your next witness, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. Our next witness is Mr. Best.
TESTIMONY OF EARL A. BEST, FORMER EMPLOYEE OF POSTON
AND HEART MOUNTAIN WAR RELOCATION CENTERS
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman) .
Mr. Costello. Will you state your full name to the reporter,
please?
Mr. Best. Earl Alfred Best.
Mr. Steedman. What is your address?
Mr. Best. 2241 Overland Avenue.
Mr. Steedman. Is that your temporary address?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. What is your permanent address?
Mr. Best. 1629 York, Denver, Colo.
Mr. Steedman. Will you speak a little more loudly so the committee
can hear you?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How long have you been living in Los Angeles?
Mr. Best. Off and on for 20 years.
Mr. Steedman, How long have you been here on this trip?
Mr. Best. This trip?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Best. Oh, about a month now.
Mr. Steedman. Where are you working at the present time?
Mr. Best. I am working in Shanon's.
Mr. Steedman. Is that a restaurant?
Mr. Best. That is a drive-in.
Mr. Steedman. What is your occupation?
Mr. Best. I am dinner cook there.
Mr. Steedman. W^ih you give us the location of Shanon's?
Mr. Best. Yes. It is on Pico and Sepulveda.
Mr. Steedman. Where were you born?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9291
Mr. Best. California.
Mr. Steedman. AVlieii?
Mr. Best. 1S9S.
Mr. Steedman, Have you ever served in the armed forces of the
United States?
Mr. Best. I have not.
Mr. Steedman. You have not?
Mr. Best. No, sh.
Mr. Steedman. Have you served in the armed forces of Canada?
Mr. Best. 1 have, twice — both wars.
Mr. Steedman. Did you serve overseas in World War No. 1?
Mr. Best. That is light.
Air. Steedman. For how long?
Mr. Best. Four and a half years.
Mr. Steedman. You saw service throughout that war?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Combat service?
Mr. Best. Yes, sh.
Mr. Steedman. What type of work have you been engaged in
from the last war to the beginning of this war?
Mr. Best. Hotel-chef work.
Mr. Steedman. That has been your occupation throughout your
life, is that correct?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. At the beginning of the war in 1939, did you rejoin
the Canadian forces?
• Mr. Best. I went to Canada from Los Angeles in 1939 and my son
and I joined the Canadian forces.
Mr. Steedman. Both you and your son?
Air. Best. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. What is your son's name?
Air. Best. Clifford Best.
Air. Steedman. Did you see active service in France during World
War No. II?
Air. Best. I did. I was hurt in the Dunkhk evacuation and in-
valided home, back to Canada, and I left Canada after I got my
discharge in December 1942.
Air. Steedman. How long were you actually in the service?
Air. Best. From 1939 to December — from October of 1939 until
I was discharged. I believe my discharge is dated December 4, 1942.
Air. Steedman. And that is a medical discharge?
Mr. Best, 1941, pardon me.
Mr. Steedman. And that is a medical discharge?
Air. Best. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. And you actually saw service in France during the
battles over there in the Second World War?
Air. Best. That is right.
• Mr. Steedman. Is your son still in the service?
Air. Best. My son was killed in Africa on January 11 of this year.
Air. Steedman. \Miere?
Air. Best. In Africa with the Canadian forces.
Air. Steedman. Was he in the air force?
Air. Best. That is right.
Air. Steedman. Did you ever take a position with the War Reloca-
tion Authority?
9292 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Best. I accepted a position with them on April 4, a year ago.
Mr. Steedman. 1942?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir, 1942.
Mr. Steedman. In what capacity?
Mr. Best. As chief steward.
Mr. Steedman. Where?
Mr. Best. Boston, Ariz.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please relate to the committee the cir-
cumstances surrounding your employment with the W. R. A. as chief
steward at Boston?
Mr. Best. I was hired as chief steward and went to Los Angeles
to hire cooks to open that camp. There was supposed to be an
advance party that was going over there to open the camp at Boston,
but shortly after arriving in Boston on April 13, I received a telegram
saying that those cooks that I had hired in Los Angeles would not be
allowed to go to Boston.
Mr. Steedman. Why?
Mr. Best. The Army would not approve of them going to Boston.
I later went to Heart Mountain and found them all there. I never
did get any of those cooks. I proceeded to Boston and we opened 71
kitchens in Boston.
I was the chief steward and I had no Caucasian help until shortly
before I left there.
Mr. Steedman. Was the preparation of the meals under your
jurisdiction?
Mr. Best. That is right. I also requisitioned all supplies from the
quartermaster.
Mr. Steedman. In other words the feeding of the Japanese evac-
uees was your responsibility?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. And will you fix the date that you went to Boston?
Mr. Best. April 13, 1942.
Mr. Steedman. What was the date you left Boston?
Mr. Best. Early in September. I was on the pay roll until the
21st of September.
Mr. Steedman. Then you were there for a period of a little more
than 3 months?
Mr. Best. No; almost 6 months at Boston — from April until
September.
Mr. Steedman. W^hat were the chcumstances smTounding the
termination of your employment at Boston?
Mr, Best. I was notified that I was being transferred.
I had a 4 months' appointment and when that expired they extended
it for 30 days and later extended it for another 30 days and I was told
then that I was being transferred and to report to the San Francisco
office, which I did, and at San Francisco they offered me a job at Gila,
at much less money than I had received at Boston.
Mr. Steedman. What was your salary at Boston?
Mr. Best. $3,800 a year.
Mr. Steedman. And what was the salary they offered you at Gila?
Mr. Best. $2,600. I refused that and was out of Government
service until I received a telegram from Mr. Smart, the regional
director in Denver, offermg me a job at Heart Mountain as associate
project steward at $3,200, and I accepted that.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9293
Mr. Steedman. I would like to first take up the Poston phase of
your employment with the W. R. A. and later we will go into the
information you have regarding the Heart Mountain center.
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Best, did the project at Poston furnish fresh
milk for the evacuees?
Mr. Best. AMien I first arrived there w^e didn't. For possibly 2
months we got along without fresh milk. There was an unlimited
supply of canned milk and Drs. Suavely and Schnor, who were in
charge of the hospital, advised me that it would not be necessary to
have fresh milk; we were too far from a market and they advised
that canned milk was the safest thing to raise babies on out there in
the desert anyway, so we got along very nicely without it for 2 months.
At the end of 2 months Mr. Head called me in one day and told me
he had to put in fresh milk and wanted to know what it would cost to
give the Japanese people in that camp a pint of milk per person per
day. I reported back to him it would cost $2,000 per day.
• Several days later he called me in and told me we would have to
order the fresh milk. I tried to advise him that we didn't have proper
refrigeration to handle it and that it would cost $60,000 a month, and
I thought that money could go to better purposes during the war,
and he said:
We don't need money to win the war and these people must have fresh milk.
So I obeyed his orders and ordered the fresh milk immediately.
Mr. Steedman. Up until the time you left Poston, they were serving
fresh milk to the Japanese evacuees?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Did Mr. Head indicate whether that was his own idea
or somethmg he had received m the nature of advice from the Wash-
ington office?
Mr. Best. I think it was pressure brought to bear by the social
workers.
]Mr. MuNDT. Within the camp?
Mr. Best. Within the camp; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't think that recommendation came as a part
of the program of Henry "Wallace by any means?
(No response).
yir. Eberharter. Had you heard any complaints from the
Japanese when they were bemg served canned milk?
Mr. Best. There were very few complaints.
Mr. Eberharter. You think as a whole they were satisfied?
^^r. Best. Yes; they were satisfied.
'Mr. Eberharter. With the canned milk?
Mr. Best. That is right, sir. We also had many difi'ercnt brands
of canned milk and different baby foods.
Mr. Steedman. During your service with the Government you
worked at Poston and at Heart Mountain relocation centers?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Air. Steedman. Of the two projects which one would you say is run
most efficiently?
Mr. Best. 1 would say Poston. Poston is run very efficiently
compared to Heai»t Mountain.
62626 — 13— vol. 15 30
9294 TJN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. And Poston has the reputation of being one of the
most efficiently run relocation centers in the W. R. A. set-up, isn't
that correct?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Do you think that is due to the fact that some of
the officials at Poston have had some administrative experience in
the Government prior to taking positions at Poston?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir. Most of the officials there are ex-Indian
Agency men.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to go into the
details of Poston with Mr. Best, but I would like to develop the
mformation we have regarding Heart Mountain.
If the committee has any questions it would like to ask about Poston
at this time I will be glad for you to ask them.
Mr. MuNDT. You were not at Poston during the riot which took
place there?
Mr. Best. No; I left there shortly before that. I 'was not there
during the riot.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you have occasion to witness any evidence of
pro-Japanese activities on the part of the evacuees at Poston?
Mr. Best. Yes; there was considerable evidence of it.
Mr, CosTELLO. And I presume you had Japanese working under
you?
Mr. Best. I had 1,600 in my department, sir.
Mr. Costello. Were they cooperative in their work?
Mr. Best. No; they were not.
Mr. Costello. Did you ever hear any comments on the part of
any of them that they expected Japan to win the war and they wanted
Japan to win the war?
Mr. Best. Yes; that was common.
Mr. Costello. You heard remarks of that character in your
presence?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Costello. Were those remarks made by older Japanese or
by the native-born Japanese?
Mr. Best. Native born — by the native born more than by the
older Japanese.
Mr. Costello. Would that be because you had contact more with
the younger groups?
Mr. Best. That is possible.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you in mind any instances where Japanese
working in the kitchens deliberately misused or wasted or squandered
foodstuff?
Mr. Best. Yes. Not so much at Poston as I did at Heart Mountam,
At Poston T was the chief steward and I didn't allow them enormous
supplies. They got their daily allowance and they couldn't accumu-
late sufficiently large stocks to be wasteful, and so long as they
couldn't accumulate them they couldn't waste them, but at Heart
Mountain it was just the opposite. They had enormous accumula-
tions.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words, at Poston if they ,did try to waste
food it would be simply depriving their fellow nationals of rations?
Mr. Best. That is right, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9295
Mr. Eberharter. Did they have any system at Poston for report-
ing the Japanese who made pro-Axis assertions?
Mr. Best. Not to my knowk^dsre, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. So the head of the project or any of the ad-
ministrative officers would not be able to know which of the Japanese
had made these remarks?
Mr. Best. I have reported several of them to the administration.
Mr. Eberharter. But there was no administrative order that any
of those remarks should be reported when they were made?
Mr. Best. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was there any evidence of stealing food from the
mess halls during your administration?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was that very widespread?
Mr. Best. It was.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were any large quantities stolen?
Mr. Best. Not at Poston; no. I wouldn't say there was any great
amount because they didn't have enough to allow them to steal any
great amount.
Mr. CosTELLO. As far as you were concerned you saw to it that
there was never an excess of food in the mess halls?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Or the kitchens where food was being prepared?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Costello. I guess that is all on that.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Best, you stated you received a telegram from
the regional director of the War Relocation Authority in Denver,
offering you a job as associate steward at the war relocation project
at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the date of that telegram?
Mr. Best. It was in December and I wired back that I would
accept, and they wired back for me to come up immediately and I
landed there on the 15th of December.
Mr. Steedman. December 15, 1942?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And your salary was $3,200 a year?
Tvlr. Best. Yes, sir. I also got the 20-percent raise at that time
that brought me up to about the same figure I was making at Poston.
Mr. MuNDT. \^ilo was the chief steward at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. Fred Haller.
Mr. MuNDT. Was he the chief steward all the time you were there?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. ^^Tiat were your duties as associate steward at
Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. My first duty when I arrived there, was to take an in-
ventory of the camp.
Mr. Haller informed me that they had never had an inventory in
the kitchens and he discovered there was a lot of gi'oceries hidden in
the attics.
I suggested to him that the inventory be taken on the last day of
the month and taken all in 1 day, but he said they didn't have the
help to do that; that I would have to take the inventory, which I did.
9296 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIE>S
It took me just about a month to take that inventory in 42 kitchens.
Mr. Steedman. During the period of this inventory, did you visit
all the kitchens in the project?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Did you have any difficulty with any of the Jap-
anese in the kitchens with reference to taking the inventory?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir; I did. The seventh kitchen I inventoried, the
chef — I had a Japanese helper with me who Mr. Haller had detailed
to me. This Japanese boy got in an argument with the Japs in this
seventh kitchen that I inventoried. It was all in Japanese and I
asked what the argument was about, and the chef informed me that
I wasn't going into the attic; that that was his attic.
I informed him that the attic was in a Government building and
that I had orders to go into the attics. I tried to show him that I
had inventoried other kitchens and had also gone into the attics,
wliich were my orders.
In his attic he had $2,000 worth of goods hidden — many cases
Mr. CosTELLO. $2,000 worth of foodstuffs?
Mr. Best. That is right. It inventoried at $2,000. Also in his
attic he had 500 pounds of coffoe up there, which he didn't want me
to find, along with an unlimited amount of supplies of all kinds.
There were 50 cases of cereals which the m.ice had built nests in.
Those cereals had been in the attic so long that mice were building
nests in them. I tried to advise this cools
Mr. CosTELLO. What is the name of that cook?
Mr. Best. Hariguchi.
Mr. Costello. What is his first name?
Mr. Best. I don't know his first name. I went into the attic and
the Japs got quite excited about it and the chef got a knife — Hariguchi
got a cleaver and the second cook got a butcher knife and they stuck
their heads up in the attic and told me unless we got out of there
im.mediately they were going to "cut our damn heads off."
Mr. MuNDT. Told you that in Japanese or in English?
Mr. Best. In English; and they spoke very good English.
Mr. Mundt. In other words, they spoke Japanese when they were
talking
Mr. Best. To my helper.
Mr. Mundt. And you didn't know what they were saying?
Mr. Best. Yes, sh. I asked the helper what they were saying in
Japanese, and he said they were accusing him of being a stool pigeon
and tipping me off to what was in that attic, and they .were deter-
mined that I was not going to go into that attic and take an inventory.
I had heard before I arrived there that there were 10 sacks of sugar
in the attic. I was tipped off it was there, but I never did find the
10 sacks of sugar because I did not finish the inventory that day.
Before the inventory was over we were driven out of the kitchen.
Two girls finally came in and got up on the ladder and stuck their
heads up in the attic and they said:
Mr. Best, we wish you would get rid of the Japanese boy —
The boy who was helping me. He was known as Harris. Harris was
his first name. I don't recall his last name. They said:
We don't think that this chef would hurt you but we do know he intends to
kill Harris.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9297
Mr. Steedman. Will you speak a little more slowly?
Mr. Best. I advised Harris to leave and the gii'ls told him — they
said:
\yhen you hit tliis floor you make for that side door and don't stop running; the
rest of the women have Hariguchi over in the corner of the dining room and they
are trying to hold him off until you get out of here.
Well, Harris loft and ho never did stop riinninp; until he hit the ware-
house. I came down out of there then. I couldn't take an inventory
of the attic without anybody to hold the light for me and I proceeded
to continue my inventory in the pantry.
This chef, Hariguchi, insulted me at least 20 times. He threw a
case of apple sauce at me one time. He brought it in from the kitchen
and he said:
There is another for you, you white son of a b.
I decided it was time to leave and I went down and reported to Mr,
Haller, insisting that this be reported to Mr. Guy Robertson
Mr. MuxDT. Is Mr. Robertson the director of the camp?
Mr. Best. That is right; project director.
We proceeded to his office. It was right at noontime. He was
eating his lunch. He carried his lunch pail and he was eating his
limch in his office when we arrived. We stated to him what had hap-
pened and he sent out and brought in the three Japs representing that
block and told his associate director, Mr. Todd, to question them as to
why this chef would threaten a Caucasian employee.
The three Japs came in and they couldn't understand — the three
Japs representing the block, one known as the block chairman, the
block administrative officer, and the block steward. They couldn't
understand why this chef had done that.
They were trying then to alibi for him. They said they didn't
think that he had threatened me because Japanese talk with their
hands a lot and no doubt he was cutting meat and he had a knife in his
hand.
I informed them that he wasn't cutting meat; that he had deliber-
ately got a knife and told me what he was going to do with it — he was,
"^oing to cut mv head ofi"."
They then brought in the chef. He was taken into a conference
room in front of Mr. Todd, associate director, Mr. Everett Lane,
transportation officer. Air. Fred Haller, chief steward, Lawyer Housel —
the lawyer of the camp.
Mr. Todd's secretary, who was taking the notes, Mrs. Bottrell — -
Mr. Steedman. Wlio was Mrs. Bottrell secretary to?
Mr. Best. Mr. Todd's secretary.
Mr. Steedman. And she took minutes of the conversation?
Mr. Best. Yes; she took the minutes of the conversation. And
also the three Japs representing the block, the chef Harisruclii, and
myself were present. At first Hariguchi claimed he couldn't speak
English. They brought in an interpreter and he didn't give the
interpreter a chance to speak. He got right up and talked very good
English.
He said:
Yes, I don't like this man; I threatened to kill him. He had no business in my
attic. Mr. Haller comes in here and takes inventory in 2 minutes; he looks
around the pantry and says, "you have got $300 worth here," and leaves.
9298 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
This man, he don't know how to take an inventory. He takes each can down,
the size of it. I just didn't like that and I didn't want him in my kitchen at any
time.
We proceeded from there. The man pleaded guilty to all charges
that I had made against him. He was sent back to his kitchen 'and
the rest of the conference went into Mr. Robertson's office and the
lawyer made tlie report to Mr. Robertson that the man had pleaded
guilty to all charges.
Mr. Robertson instructed Mr. Haller at that point to fire this chef
immediately, but just then a Jap representing the block got up and
he said:
Now, Mr. Robertson, you can't fire this chef. If you fire this chef you are
going to liave a lot of trouble in that block and other blocks because he is a good
chef and he is very well liked.
Robertson then asked the next Jap what he thought about it and
he made a similar speech. He said the man was very honest.
I questioned his honesty. I told them that when he had $2,000
worth of groceries hidden in that attic, and it was in the shape that
it was in, that in my estimation it was just sabotage.
The third Jap got up and made a similar speech that —
You can't fire the chef without having trouble.
Mr. Robertson then instructed Mr. Haller to not fire the chef
because he did not want trouble in that block, but he advised that the
chef should at least apologize to Air. Best and to Harris, which was
done.
Mr. Steedman. And the chef did not lose his position as a result
of that?
Mr. Best. The chef did not lose his position at that time, but 8 days
later he beat up another Japanese who was working for him in the
kitchen and he cut another one quite badly with a knife and they had
him in jail for 8 or 10 days. After that they put him in another
kitchen and to the best of my knowledge he is still a chef in one of the
kitchens at Heart Mountain.
Mr. Steedman. Did the Japanese whom he beat up claim to be a
loyal American?
Mr. Best. That is right. That was the cause of the beatings.
Mr. Steedman. In going around to the other kitchens, did you -dis-
cover any more hoarded food?
Mr. Best. Yes. There was a small investigation by somebody
from Washington — I don't remember right offhand who it was, and
they were instructed to get those supplies out of the attics.
At kitchen 17 they had more supplies than any other kitchen in the
camp. They had 100 sacks of rice — 10,000 pounds of rice.
Mr. Steedman. And that would feed how many people?
Mr. MuNDT. In the attic?
Mr. Best. No; they had it piled in the dining room. The attic was
full, the pantry was full so they were piling it alongside of the dining
room — one side of the dining room. They had 100 sacks of rice. I
don't remember how much flour but an unreasonable amount, and
case goods of every description.
Mr. Haller was told that he must remove that from the dining
room because if anybody came in on an inspection tour and saw it
there there might be some bad reports, so he sent a Japanese to tell
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 9299
them that he was coming out the next day to move the suppHes and
if they could find some place to put it before he got there that it would
be quite all right.
Iho next day he sent a truck up there and they came back with
about six cases of dried cereals. The rest of the supplies had dis-
appeared from the dining room. I understood from the Japanese
that it \\'ent to private apartments.
Mr. Steedman. In checking on the various kitchens, did you find
any evidence that the Japanese were trading the hoarded groceries for
whisk}'?
Mr. Best. Yes; there was much evidence of that. At one kitchen
a garbage man who was selling the Japanese a lot of chickens — at that
time we were not giving the Japanese chickens — they are getting it
now, but they weren't then.
This garbage man was buying chickens and bringing them to the
camp and selling them to the Japanese. In many kitchens that I
went in they would have two or three hundred pounds of chicken.
Mr. MuNDT. How would they pay for those chickens?
Mr. Best. Mr. Loverchech — — •
Mr. Steedman. Who was he?
Mr. Best. He was hauling garbage from the camp. I never saw
any money change hands but one morning as I arrived at this kitchen
where Loverchech had his truck parked besides the garbage cans,
there was a case of hams — I would say about 12 hams and there was 2
slabs of bacon and there was 6 cases of canned fruits. Those were
No. 10 cans. That would be rouglily, 6 gallons of canned fruits.
There was also some canned vegetables. It was piled in the snow
beside the garbage cans and the truck was parked beside it.
This was quite early in the morning — I would say about 6:30. I
asked the chef what the groceries were doing out there, as they had
had no delivery from the supply room that morning, and he said he
was cleaning the pantry and he put them out there to be out of the
way, which was a ridiculous explanation because they had a large
dining room and plenty of space in the kitchen. They didn't have to
carry it outside and put it by the garbage cans in the snow.
Mr. MuNDT. To the best of your belief then the chefs were trading
hoarded material to the garbage man for chickens?
\It. Best. Yes, sir. Shortly after that Mr. Haller was away for a
few days and I took his place and while taking his place a Japanese
from that particular kitchen come down to the steward's office and
asked me if I would fire his chef. He said the chef was drunk all the
time and that he had reported it to Mr. Haller many times but he
said:
Mv chef has got a lot on Mr. Haller so Mr. Haller won't fire him.
Now, that Mr. Haller is away we are in hoj^es that j'ou will fire him because he
is drunk all the time and he is trading hams for whisky.
The transportation officer, who was my boss, was in the office at
that time.
Mr. MuNDT. And heard that conversation?
Mr. Best. Heard that conversation; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Was the trading of hams for liquor done with the same
garbage man?
Mr. Best. No. I questioned this man as to who he was trading
the hams with and he said that soldiers were coming in and visiting a
9300 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
lot and he said they were the ones that were taking it out. He said
to his knowledge they had been taking it out of the camp and bringing
whisky in in exchange — that is Japanese soldiers who visited the
camp.
Mr. MuNDT. Where were those soldiers from?
Mr. Best. I don't know where they were from but many of them
were visiting there all the time.
Mr. MuNDT. Japanese soldiers from the American Army who were
on furlough?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. MiJNDT. What is the procedure by which the chefs of these
kitchens get their supplies from the central warehouses at Heart
Mountain?
Mr. Best. At Heart Mountain Mr. Haller has a steward repre-
senting each block. The Japanese stewards come down to his office
and tell them what they want and he sends it to them. That is how
they accumulate such an anormous stock.
Mr. MuNDT. They tell him what they want? How do they do
that? Is that by written request?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. A written requisition?
Mr. Best. That is right; a written requisition. He goes over the
written requisitions and he cuts them down to a certain extent. If
he gave them all they asked for, why, the kitchens would not hold it.
He told me at one time not to give them any more canned fruit;
that there had been a complaint that they had too much canned
fruit in their kitchens and hidden in their attics.
Mr. MuNDT. Up to the time you arrived there no inventory had
ever been made of the materials that might have been hoarded in
the kitchens?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. And you arrived there on what date?
Mr. Best. 15th of December.
Mr. MuNDT. How long had the camp been running at that time?
Mr. Best. I believe it opened around the first of August.
Mr. MuNDT. And had Mr. Haller been steward all that time?
Mr. Best. No; they had a steward there first who, I believe, done
a good job but the Japanese didn't like him because he wouldn't
give them an unlimited supply and they made it so tough for him
that he left the camp in a hurry.
Mr. Steedman. What was his name?
Mr. Best. I have heard it many times. I have met him and would
recognize him if I met him again, but ofi'hand I can't think of it. Mr.
Haller, I believe, arrived there in October.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Haller had to put his O. K. on requisitions by
which the chef in kitchen No. 10 accumulated all that rice?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. It could not have been done without Haller's approval?
Mr. Best. That is right. At one time he told m.e not to give them
any more fruit. He had me O. K.-ing the requisitions for a short time
and the Japanese asked for more canned fruit and I told them they
weren't going to get anj^ more until they used up what they already
had. They had an unreasonable amount.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9301
Tho next day a delep:ation of Japanese came down to see Mr.
Haller. I was in the office when they arrived and they told him —
they said:
We want canned fruit and we don't want it tomorrow; we damn well want it
this aft3rnoon and you get it out there.
He immediately called two trucks and sent canned fruit to all
kitchens.
Mr. CosTELLO. Who were the men that called on him?
Air. Best. Japanese stewards from the different blocks, represent-
ing the cooks' association in the camp.
Mr. MuNDT. Pretty persuasive salesmen, weren't they?
Mr. Best. They were.
Mr. Steedman. Was there much garbage being disposed of at
Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir; they fed cafeteria style at Boston. While I
was there I fed them strictly family style. I found that on cafeteria
style where you have women and children that it is almost impossible
to feed a large amount of people without enormous waste.
They go through in line and the cooks have a lot of food dished up
before they get there and as they march by in the line they hand them
a plate. They hand the same amount of food to a man who is doing
a day's work that they hand to a child or a lady that is sick. They
take it and they din't say anything. They know it belongs to the
Government anywa}'', so they think, "I will throw it in the garbage
can."
That is where a lot of it ends up. They have eight garbage cans
per kitchen where one would be sufficient if they fed family style.
Mr. Mundt. By "family style" you mean put the food on the
table?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir; they have eight people to a table and have
dishes suitable for family style. They could put enough potatoes and
so forth on the table for eight people and if they didn't want to eat
that, they wouldn't have to and the food would not be wasted. If
you once take it out of the dishes and put it on the individual plate
then what is left has to go in the garbage can.
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will declare a recess for 5 minute.^.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order.
You m-ay proceed, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. How was the garbage being disposed of?
Mr. Best. There were two firms from the outside — Mr. Lover-
chech and one other party that were hauling the garbage out — they
were haulmg a small am.ount away^ from, the kitchens, and the rest of
it was hauled and dumped in a garbage dump. It wasn't used for
anything.
iVlr. Steedman. No attempt was made to conserve it?
Mr. Best. There was not.
Afr. Steedman. Were there any hogs at Heart Mountain belonging
to the center?
Mr. Best. No; there weren't.
Mr. Steedman. By the way how far is Heart Mountain from
Codv?
Mr. Best. Fourteen miles.
9302 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Cody is the nearest city?
Mr. Best. That is right. Powell is just about as close in the other
direction. I think it is 14 miles the other way.
Mr. Steedman. And Heart Mountain is a Bureau of Reclamation
development, is it not?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. "Was there such an accumulation of foodstuff and
subsistence on hand at Heart Mountain that there came a time
when they decided to ship it to other W. R. A. centers?
Mr. Best. Yes; they were notified when Mr. Jack Carberry, from
the Denver Post
Mr. Steedman. At that point, Mr. Best, I would like to develop
the circumstances surroundmg your resignation. I believe you
stated you submitted your resignation on March 31?
Mr. Best. March 1^.
Mr. Steedman. IMarch 1, effective when?
Mr. Best. March 31.
Mr. Steedman. Effective March 31?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. You gave them 30 days' notice in your resignation?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. And did you intend to take a position with the
Alcan Highway?
Mr. Best. I did.
Mr. Steedman. That is the highway running through Canada to
Alaska?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. And you intended to take a position as chef with
one of the contractors?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. But you were rejected for physical reasons?
Mr. Best. That is right; the doctor would not pass me.
Mr. Eberharter. Were you offered employment by some govern-
mental agency?
Mr. Best. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. The Alcan Highway is a private organization, is
it not?
Mr. Best. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Is it a corporation?
Mr. Best. There are many different contractors up there and I was
to work for a contractor.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall the name of the contractor?
Mr. Best. Callahan — there are three names. I think it is John
Callahan and somebody else. I remember it was called "Callahan."
It is known as "Callahan."
Mr. Steedman. Now; after you resigned from your position as
assistant steward at Heart Mountain, did you get in touch with Jack
Carberry of the Denver Post?
Mr. Best. I did.
Mr. Steedman. And he is sports editor of the Denver Post, isn't
that correct?
Mr. Best. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. Did you teU hun your stoiy concerning conditions
at Heart Mountain?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9303
Mr. Best. I told it first to Mr. Martin, the editor of the Post, and
he called in Mr. Carberiy. He sent Mr. Carberiy out to my home
to interview me that same day.
Mr. Steedman. And after Mr. Carberry interviewed you, he went
to Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. And when the project administrator at Heart
Mountain heard that Jack Carberry was going to the Heart Mountain
center, they decided to ship out a considerable amount of foodstuffs?
Mr. Best. They shipped out many tons — many carloads.
IMr. CosTELLO. \^Tiat date was it Mr. Carberiy visited the Center?
Mr. Best. I would not be sure of the date but I imagine it was
around the 15th of April.
Mr. CosTELLO. When did you speak to the manager of the Denver
Post?
Mr. Best. I believe it was the 8th of April.
Mr. CosTELLO. About the 8th?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And why did you resign?
Mr. Best. I resigned because I didn't believe in taking orders
from Japs. If I remained there I would be under Japanese orders.
Mr. Haller insisted that I take orders from the Japanese. He called
Mr. Lane and gave him my resignation. He was the transportation
officer there.
Mr. CosTELLO. You mean the Japanese were going to be placed in
charge of the chef steward?
Mr. Best. At all times Mr. Haller, from the time I arrived there,
wanted me to take orders from two different Japs that were in his office.
Mr. CosTELLO. What were their positions?
Mr. Best. One was an office manager named Nosey — his fii'st
name is Arnold.
Mr. CosTELLO. Arnold Nosey?
Mr. Best. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. And he is Japanese?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. Who was the other one?
Mr. Best. Jimmie Yeuda.
Mr. Mundt. How long did you continue working at Heart Moun-
tain after you submitted your resignation?
Mr. Best. 30 days.
Mr. Mundt. You worked thi-oughout the period of notification?
Mr. Best. That is right, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Did Mr. Carberry actually visit the camp?
Mr. Best. He spent 3 days there and inventoried the warehouses
while he was there,
Mr. Mundt. Did he subsequently submit a report of his findings
to the Denver Post?
Mr. Best. That is right. He ran a series of articles that lasted
for 6 days..
Mr. Mundt. Do you know the dates of those articles?
Mr. Best. Well, I imagine they started about the 17th or 18th of
April. I wouldn't be just positive about that.
Mr. Mundt. And they ran for a period of 6 days?
Mr. Best. That is right.
9304 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think we should have the articles
in the files of the committee and I request Mr. Steedman to secure
a set of the articles.
Mr. Steedman. We have most of them, Mr. Mundt.
Mr. MuNDT. I think we should have the whole series so they will
be available to us.
Mr. Steedman. I had thought about requesting Mr. Carberry tO'
appear before the committee in Washington because he made a
first-hand investigation of Heart Mountain.
Mr. CosTELLO. You spoke, Mr. Best about several freight cars of
surplus foods being sliipped out of Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. WTien did that take place?
Mr. Best. That took place the day before Mr. Carberry arrived
there. They knew he was coming. They had been notified from
Washington that he was arriving.
Mr. Costello. And that would have been April 14?
Mr. Best. Around that time; yes.
Mr. Costello. You were not at the camp at that time?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Costello. How did you obtain your information regarding^
the removal of the freight cars?
Mr. Best. From Mr. Carberry and also from some of the officials
at Heart Mountain.
Mr. Costello. They informed you as to the removal of this
equipment?
Mr. Best. I would rather not answer that question. There are a
lot of people at Heart Mountain who are worried about their jobs
and I don't want to be the cause of them losing their jobs.
Mr. Costello. The people up there are the ones who informed
you concerning the removal of the freight cars?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. And those supplies were sent to other relocation
centers, were they?
Mr. Best. Yes; they could be quite easily traced.
Mr. Costello. Do you have any idea as to how many freight cars
may have been removed from Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. I believe there were five.
Mr. Costello. And those five carloads were sent to various other
centers?
Mr. Best. Yes.
Mr. Costello. You don't know whether they all left on April 14
or whether they were sent out on different dates?
Mr. Best. No. Many of them — three carloads I believe — I was
told there were three carloads left there the day before Mr. Carberry
arrived and I understand there have been some shipped out of there
since.
Mr Mundt. You don't know to which camp they were sent?
Mr. Best. No; but Mr. Wickersham told me he received one car-
load at Boston.
Mr. Mundt. He also told the committee he did and gave us the
number of the car so we can trace that one definitely.
Mr. Best. They had 10,000 gallons of mayomiaise and were only
using 600 gallons a month and much of it was broken and going back
UN-A]VIER1CAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 9305
to oil and the Japs wore just wasting it. They refused to rewhip it.
It could have easily been rewhipped but they refused to do that. It
was too much work.
Mr. CosTELLO. And large quantities of other foodstuffs were being
wasted?
]Mr. Best. Yes, sir. Corn meal — they had a 65 months' supply of
corn meal — over 5 years' supply.
Mr. MuNDT. 65 months?
Mr. Best. Yes, su-; at the rate they were using it.
Mr. MuxDT. They must have been figuring on a long war.
Mr. Best. Yes, sir. And 5 years' supply of canned tomatoes at
the rate they were usmg them, but if they went on the point system
the supply would have lasted 8 years. But much of that may have
been shipped out later to other camps, but that was what they had the
time I took the inventory.
Mr. CosTELLO. You took an inventory and found all this surplus
food existing in the camp at the time you were there?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you make any recommendations regarding
the surplus at that time?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir; I did. I wrote memorandums to Mr. Lane
and Mr. Robertson suggesting that they remove the stuff or do some-
thing about it because it was going to spoil, and mice were nesting in
the corn flakes, and so forth.
I made a report to them of the condition at the time but there was
nothing done about it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Nothing was done about it until some time in
March or April when they started to ship freight cars of food out of
there?
Air. Best. That is right.
iMr. Costello. But during the time or from the time you made
your recommendations up to the middle of April, they didn't do
anything about it — in fact continued to purchase additional foods?
l\ir. Best. Yes. I wrote a memorandum to Mr. Lane at one time
telling him that he had 10,000 gallons of mayomiaise and that on the
last day of February a shipment to arrive — I believe it was 800 gallons,
and there was another shipment to arrive on the last day of xVlarch,
which had all been ordered in advance, of 600 gallons. I suggested
that he stop those shipments because he already had much more than
he could use and I believe they did stop those shipments.
]Mr. Costello. V\ as any reason ever given for the accumulation of
this large supply?
Mr. Best. ISo; there wasn't.
Mr. Costello. In other words, it wasn't done with the idea they
were going to have twice as many Japanese evacuees at the camp than
they actually received?
Mr. Best. No. They knew the capacity of the camp and the camp
was full at that time.
Mr. Costello. How many evacuees are at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. Sir, that is a question I don't think anybody can answer.
Mr. Costello. Approximately how many?
Mr. Best. W. R. A., Mr. Myer, or anybody else. I don't think
they can tell you that because they come and go as they please.
There are many of them we only see on pay day.
9306 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. The camp authorities have no control over the
Japanese at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. They were drawing rations for 11,500 people at Heart
Mountain when I am positive they didn't have over 10,000. That
is how they kept the food cost low or down to 45 cents.
Mr. Steedman. In other words, they were drawing rations for more
people than they were feeding; is that right?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean to say there is no periodic check-up or
census at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. There is no roll call or check-up.
Mr. Mundt. There is no roll call or any count to determine the
number of people in Heart Mountain center?
Mr. Best. That is right. At no time did they ever have a roll call
or a counting of those people. It was suggested once while I was at
Poston that they count the people at the camp once a month and it
was suggested that they go around at night after they were in their
quarters and count them, but the social workers objected to those
people being disturbed in their quarters and it was never done while
I was there.
Mr. Costello. The social workers were opposed to a census being
taken?
Mr. Best. That is right. The housing committee takes a census.
They know how many people should be there but to actually be able
to swear that they are there, that is different.
Mr. Mundt. Were you at Poston at the time a Miss Findley was
serving there as a social worker?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. At Heart Mountain did they have anybody holding a
similar position?
Mr. Best. Yes. At Heart Mountain it was Miss Virgil Payne.
Mr. Mundt. Did you know Miss Payne personally?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Did you know Miss Findley personally?
Mr. Best. I did.
Mr. Mundt. Did they have similar ideas as to the proper attitude
to take toward the Japanese?
Mr. Best. They did, and at Heart Mountain Miss Payne took her
orders from Sam Nagata, the Jap that runs the camp.
Mr. Mundt. A Japanese?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir; he is connected with the community service.
Virgil Payne takes her orders from Sam Nagata and Mr. Guy Robert-
son takes his orders from Virgil Payne.
Mr. Steedman. Do you laiow anything about the background of
Sam Nagata?
Mr. Best. Yes. I understand Mr. Nagata was born in this
country but he is a Kibei. He was educated in Japan. His wife is
an old country Japanese woman and does not speak English. Their
son, David, is 12 years of age. He was taken to Japan at the age of
6 to go to school over there and he returned to the United States
shortly before the evacuation — ^shortly before Pearl Harbor.
Air. Steedman. About how old a man is Sam Nagata?
Mr. Best. I am not much of a judge on Japanese ages. Are you
referring to Sam Nagata, the father?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9307
Mr. Steedman. Yes; I am referring to the father.
Mr. Best. I don't know, but I imagine — I would guess him to be 35.
Mr. Steedman. Does he take an interest in the Judo Chib?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir; he takes an interest in everything in tlie camp.
Mr. Steedman. And is he active in the Judo Club there?
Mr. Best. I understood he was.
Mr. Steedman. And they do have Judo Clubs at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. They have a Judo Club there and also run the post. I
had orders from the social workers that I must feed those Judo
workers eveiy night at midnight as their exercise was very strenuous.
Mr. xvIuNDT. I knew we would get around to the midnight-snack
business we were talking about.
Mr. Best. At Boston I refused to do it, but at Heart Mountain I
was compelled to do it.
Mr. MuNDT. Was that a fourth meal a day?
Mr. Best. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Was that a midnight snack?
Mr. Best. That is right. I suggested if they wanted exercise to
give them a pick and shovel.
Mr. MuNDT. What did they serve them at the midnight snack?
Mr. Best. Served a regular meal,
Mr. ]MuNDT. A regular meal?
Mr. Best. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. That would be the same as the dinner meal or the
lunch?
Mr. Be&t. The same as the dinner meal.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, in connection with the number of
evacuees at Heart Mountain, Mr. Cavett obtained the following
information from Mr. Todd, who is the associate director, and the
information is dated May 28, 1943, and it indicates that the total
population as of May 24, 1943, was 9,910 at Heart Mountain.
That figure includes 2,458 children of preschool age, persons handi-
capped through physical disability, aged persons and housewives who
have children to take care of.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever see the participants of a Judo Club
going through their lessons?
Mr. Best. No, sir.
;Mr. MuNDT. You have never seen judo wrestling take place?
Mr. Best. No, sir; I was invited down there several times to their
class but I never did attend.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. ]\lr. Chairman, also in connection with the food
shipped out of Heart Mountain to the other war relocation centers,
Mr. Cavett obtained an itemized account of the food shipments to
the other centers or military posts, dated June 4, 1943, and it is
headed, "Statement for Dies committee, John A. Nelson, senior
administrative officer."
It is unsigned, but I would like at this time to ask Mr. Cavett if
he received this document from ]Mr. Todd of the Heart Mountain
relocation center?
Mr. Cavett, Yes; I did.
Mr. Steedman. I think it might be a good idea to insert this
document in the record at this point.
9308 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
]Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Cavett, was this statement prepared by or
under the direction of Mr. Todd?
Mr. Cavett. Under Mr. Todd's direction; yes. He called the
gentleman in and told him to prepare what we wanted. I told him
that there had been information received that after the information
had gotten out that they had surplus food supplies, that they immedi-
ately shipped the stulf out. I told him I wanted an inventory as to
what was shipped out and where it was sent to and the date it was
sent.
Mr. Eberharter. And he gave you this statement?
Mr. Best. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. CosTELLo. According to this statem.ent some of the shipments
were sent not only to relocation centers but to other various govern-
mental agencies, such as Army air bases and various other locations,
and the Trinidad internment camp; the Army air base at Colorado
Springs; the cpiartermaster at Fort Logan. In other words, they
shipped it all over that section of the country?
Mr. Cavett. They shipped out to whoever would take it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Does this indicate the actual number of freight
cars that were actually shipped out?
Mr. Cavett. I asked if it was about four or five cars and those
are the figures on there.
I will say this, Mr. Todd was very cooperative. Anything we
asked him for he gave to us.
Mr. CosTELLO. He seemed perfectly willing to give you the infor-
mation you asked for?
Mr. Cavett. Yes; and he is the assistant director.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection that may be introduced as an
exhibit in the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 19," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Was any attempt made to save grease, fats, or
tin cans up at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Be&t. I had suggested that it be saved and returned to the
quartermaster but I was informed by one of the W. R. A. officials — ■
I don't remember his name, that the Boy Scouts called at the steward's
office and collected egg crates, lettuce crates, tin cans, and some of
the grease. I asked what they were going to do with it and I was
told that they were selling it locally in Powell. He said they had
already sold a considerable amount in Powell and Cody, Wyo. I
asked how they accounted for the money when they sold Government
property and he said they were turning the money over to the Jap-
anese Boy Scouts.
Mr. Steedman. You mean the Japanese Boy Scouts at Heart
Mountain?
Mr. Best. At Heart Mountain; yes.
Mr. CosTELLo. And those Boy Scouts are a regular American
troop of scouts, is that correct?
Mr. Best. It is composed of Tssei, Nisei, and Kibei.
Mr. CosTELLO. There wouldn't be any Issei Boy Scouts, would
there?
Mr. Best. There are Kibeis, but there wouldn't be any Issei
scouts.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9309
Mr. CosTELLO. Generally the scout movement there is the same
as the scout movement in other places of the country?
Mr. Best. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Best, do the Japanese at Heart Mountain
go on hikes?
Mr. Best. Yes; they do. I have noticed them many times leave
the camp and go on long hikes. They are free to go almost any
place they want to and tiicy all carried a uniform pack and a long
stick. The packs they carried on their backs were very uniform.
I don't know what they would weigh but they looked very military.
Mr. Steedman. How many went out at a time?
Mr. Best. Groups that I have seen leave^ — ^I would say the groups
that I have seen leave would range around 50.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know where they went to?
Mr. Best. No; I don't.
Mr. Steedman. Did they have to obtain passes to leave the center?
Air. Best. I understand one man had to have a pass — 'the man that
was in charge of the group, but they were all Japanese.
!Mr. Steedman.' Would they be gone overnight?
Mr. Best. Not to my knowledge. They leave very early on Sun-
day morning and come back late that evening.
Air. Steedman. Were you required to furnish lunches for the group?
Mr. Best. I was.
Mr. CosTELLO. How long would they be gone altogether? About
8 hours?
Mr. Best. They would be gone- all day, from early morning imtil-
quite late in the evening — -10 or 12 hours.
Mr. CosTELLO. What group of people usually went on those hikes?
W^ere they men and women?
Mr. Best. No; they were all men — ^full-grown adults, all of them.
Mr. CosTELLO. No younger boys or anything of that kind?
Mr. Best. I would say they ranged in ages, the groups that I have
seen, from 20 to 50.
Mr. CosTELLO. And would they be all three groups of Japanese — ■
Nisei, Issc'i, and Kibei?
Mr. Best. I wouldn't know.
Mr. CoNSTELLO. You don't know who the persons actually were
in the gioup?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is all.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the Japanese leave
the center without permission?
Mr, Best. I am sure they do. I have met many of them in town
who didn't have permission to be in town.
Mr. Steedman. That is in the town of Cody, Wyo?
Mr. Best. Cody and rowell. Mr. Macheau is in charge of the
Heart Mountain Sentinel, the newspaper-, and he takes a lot of the
Japanese out of the camp to basketball games in different towns in
Wyoming.
On two different occasions they played in Powell and they all got
very drunk at the Pioneer Bar and some of them did not return to the
camp. Those that did return a Jap drove the car for Mr. Macheau.
He didn't drive. He was a little too intoxicated.
62626—43 — VOL 15 31
9310 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact both of the cities of Powell and
Cody have passed resohitions requesting the camp officials to keep the
Japanese out of Cody and Powell; is that correct?
Mr. Best. That is correct.
Mr. Steedman. After you obtained the information that you did
during your tour of duty at Heart Mountain, you gave that information
to Mr. Carberry and he wrote the articles which appeared in the
Denver Post.
Following that were you contacted by any officials of the W. R. A.?
Mr. Best. Yes. Mr. Duncan Mills and Mr. Malcom Pitts con-
tacted me the day the first story appeared in the papers. They had
been to Heart Mountain for a few days prior to that.
I went to their room in the Albany Hotel and stayed there from
10 o'clock at night until about 3 in the morning. They asked me many
questions about the camp. They admitted they were surprised that
all this had happened at Heart Mountain. They said that Tule Lake
was in much worse shape than Heart Mountain and they wouldn't
have been surprised if something had happened at Tule Lake.
Mr. MuNDT. W'liat position do those two men have with the
W. R. A.?
Mr. Best. Mr. Duncan Mills is Associate Director to Mr. Dillon
Myer in "Washington and Mr. Malcom Pitts is regional director in
Denver with his office in the Midland Bank Building.
Mr. Steedman. Did anyone pay any attention to you prior to your
going to Mr. Carberry of the Denver Post?
Mr. Best. No; they didn't; and I went to Mr. Malcom Pitts the
same day that I went to the Denver Post and he seemed very dis-
interested.
Prior to that, before resigning, I had gone to the military police^
Captain Green, at the gate and he told me he had no authority to
come into the camp; that he knew conditions were horrible and
suggested that I go to the F. B. I., and he sent me in to the local
sheriff. I reported to him and through the sheriff I contacted the
F. B. I. on several occasions and the F. B. I. man told me that he was
satisfied that conditions were as I had stated but there was nothing
he could do about it.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you remember his name?
Mr. Best. Yes; Mr. Harold W. AlcMillan.
Mr. MuNDT. From Denver?
Mr. Best. I believe he works at the Denver office.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Jimmie Yohairo?
Mr. Best. Yes; I know Jimmie Yohairo. He worked for me
during the time I was at Boston. I used him as chef instr.uctor,
instructing the other cooks in the kitchens.
I thought Jimmie was a pretty good Japanese. He later got a pass
while I was at Heart Mountain. He came there to visit his dying
father. It so happened his father was not even sick.
Mr. Steedman. You mean he left Poston to go to Heart Mountain
to visit his father?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Whom he said was sick?
Air. Best. Yes, sir; he claimed he got his pass by stating that his
father was sick at Heart Mountain and he went to visit him. His
father was quite elderly, but he was not sick at the time.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9311
Mr. Steedman. What was his purpose in going to Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. Ho hold k'oturos Qvcry day advising the Japanese at
that time not to answer questions 27 and 28.
Mr. Steedman. Did you hear him dehver those lectures?
Mr. Best. On the questionnaire.
Air. Steedman. Did you hear him advising the Japanese that?
Mr. Best. No; he spoke also in Japanese which I couldn't under-
stand, but other Japanese informed me of what he was saying.
Air. Steedman. How many others informed you as to what he was
saymg?
Mr. Best. Oh, many. I immediately notified Mr. Head by tele-
gram and followed it up with a letter telling him what the Japanese
had told me that Jimmie was saying at these lectures.
Mr. Steedman. That is Jimmie Yohairo?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir; and Mr. Head replied asking me to get copies of
the minutes of those meetings if I could; but the Japanese that had
informed me of this didn't care to give nie a copy of the minutes of the
meetings. They said they hadn't taken notes and they were just a
little bit afraid of Yohairo's family — Jimmie's brother and many of
the other Yohairos who were in camp at Heart Mountain. They were
a little bit afraid to talk. They said:
We have to live here with these people for a long time and we might get our
heads taken off.
Mr, Steedman. How long was Jimmie Yohairo at Heart Moun-
tain?
Mr. Best. He was there several days before I discovered he was
there and after I notified Mr. Head. I would say he was there for an-
other 8 daj's after that — possibly he was there 15 days.
Mr. Steedman. Question 28 was the question on the form relating
to loyalty to the United States?
Mr. Best, That is right.
Mr. Steedman. And he was advising the other Japanese to refuse
to sign question 28?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Have you seen Yohairo since liis visit to Heart
Mountain?
Mr. Best. No; I have not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know Jimm.ie Oku?
Mr. Best. Yes. He worked for m.e at Heart Mountain. I met
him on the street in Denver just before I left Denver, a month ago, and
he came up to me and he calletl me by name and I stopped and talked
with him awhile and asked him where he was from and he said:
Don't j'ou remember. me; I worked for you at Poston.
And I finally placed him and we talked awhile, while I was waiting-
for a train. We talked about an hour.
He gave me his address where he was living in Denver. I asked him
how he liked Denver and he said:
"Much better than Poston," and he said at Poston, "I only got $19
a month," and he said, "now, 1 am working for the Government and
getting $200 a month."
Mr. STEED^^AN. What Government agency was he working for?
9312 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACnVITIES
Mr. Best. He didn't tell me. . We possibly could get that informa-
tion from Mr. Jack Carberry. 1 think he has it.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not Oku is a Nisei or
Kibei?
Mr. Best. I wouldn't know, but he has some relatives — his father,
I understand, asked for. repatriation. He is an old-country Jap and
asked to return to Japan.
Mr. Steedman. You have no detailed information regarding Oku?
Mr. Best. No; I haven't, except that his father asked for repatria-
tion. As far as Oku him^self is concerned, I don't know.
Mr. Steedman. During the time that you were at Heart Mountain
did the Japanese conduct a strike?
Mr. Best. No. They had a strike shortly after I left Heart Moun-
tain. They planned several strikes but something happened that
they didn't pull them.
One cook told us that they were going to have a strike 10 days after
the holiday. He told us that on Christmas Day. This cook was in
kitchen 27 — no, kitchen 27-29. That cook's name was Itichi. I
am not sure but I think it is spelled I-t-i-c-h-i. He was the chef in
charge of that kitchen and Mr. Yohano asked me to go up and visit
him on Christmas Day in the presence of Mr. Haller. This cook was
fairly well intoxicated that day and he gave all the cooks in the
kitchen a bottle whisky for Christmas presents and the people who
ate in the dining room, which was round 300, he gave them all a bottle
of beer that day and when we went in to visit him he took us in the
pantry and offered us a drink and he told us then that they were plan-
ing to strike.
Mr. vSteedman. Is there any restriction on importmg whisky into
the center at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. No; there isn't. It is hauled in there in Government
cars by Japanese.
Mr. Steedman. Is there a State law limiting the sale of whisky in
Wyoming to 5 gallons?
Mr. Best. I understand there is but some of them have accumu-
lated large amounts to take care of the Japanese trade.
Mr. Steedman. Are automobiles entering the center searched at
the gate?
Mr. Best. No; they are not. A citizen of Powell stopped me on
the street and drew my attention to the fact that a Japanese was in
town in a Governmxent car and that he had gone to two barrooms
trying to buy whisky and they wouldn't sell him whisky, but at the
third bar he bought $50 worth and this man wanted to know how the
man was going to get in the gate or what he was going to do with the
$50 worth of liquor. I suggested that he follow the man to the gate
and find out how he got in, which he did.
The car drove up to the gate and the guard said: 'Tlowdy, Jolm,
go ahead."
He didn't look in the car. Mr. Green told me he was warned
ahead of time that that car was coming and there was $50 worth of
liquor in it and he said: "I didn't give mj^ men orders to search it
because I had orders not to search those cars from the W. R. A."
Mr. MuNDT. Who is Mr. Green?
Mr. Best. Captain Green in charge of the military police at the
gate. .
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9313
Mr. MuNDT. Who gave him his orders not to search the car?
Mr. Best. W. R. A. He said that he was instructed by W. R. A.
not to search those cars and he was not searching them.
Mr. MuNDT. What do you mean by "W. R. A."?
Mr. Best. War Relocation Auiliority.
Mr. MuNDT. Who in the War Relocation Authority?
Mr. Best. The Project Admhiistrator, Mr. Robertson.
Mr. MuNDT. Let us go into the whisky and beer that the chef put
out on Christmas Day. Was that whisky and beer purchased by the
cook or was it obtained by trading Government supphes for it?
Mr. Best. He did not tell me how he obtained it but several days
after Christmas I went to his kitchen to take an inventory and when
I arrived in the kitchen he produced a bottle of good Scotch whisky
and offered me a drinlc and I told him I was working and didn't
drink on the job, and he said: "There is just you and mo here."
And I said: "It is right after breakfast and I don't want a drink
anywa^^"
So he then wanted to make a cake for me to take home to my family
and I informed him I didn't have a family and he said: "Don't put all
this do\\Ti," and he pointed to the shelves. He said: "I have got an
enormous stock here and it is going to look bad if you put it all down."
I informed him it would look bad if I didn't put it down; that his
food cost would be- so high that we would have to change cooks in the
kitchen.
I convinced him of that so he took me around and showed me secret
pantries that he had, that I woukhi't have found otherwise. He did
have an enormous stock. Wliile I was there — when I finished the
pantry — I had left my coat in the pantry and I went out in the dining
room to inventoiy what was there and as I finished that two Japanese
came in the back door and one of them looked c|uite a bit like a Mexican
and they had a parcel of whisky for. tliis particular cook and I heard
them say:
It is all right; it is all right, this man is all right.
Thej^ took it in and set it in the pantry and when I went m after my
coat I took a look into it and there was 2 quarts of Scotch whisky in it,
which was just a paper sack with 2 quarts of whisky. It was quite
open — the top of the sack was open.
At that time I hadn't found any butter but I knew they had some
butter m the kitchen and I asked him where he kept the butter and he
said he didn't have any, but I kept searching because they had so many
secret pantries, in hopes of finding the butter and just as I was leaving
I found 2 barrels of soap and 2 cases of butter outside in a little vesti-
bule at tlte entrance — at one of the entrances of the dining room'.
I drew liis attention to the fact it was there. There was a truck that
left shortW afterward and then the truck came back and I followed
them back and they took 2 cases which looked to me like 2 cases of
butter away from that kitchen.
Mr. CosTELLO. What was the nature of the secret pantries that you
speak of?
Mr. Best. Some of them have sliding doors in the wall. In block 6
they ha^-e two kitchens in that block, 27 and^ 30, and they received a
shipment of coffee from the warehouse. When I took inventory I
couldn't find the coffee but I knew they had it someplace. I kept
9314 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
searching and was about to give up, but when I was in the dining room
I noticed their pantry extended further out into the dining room than
other pantries, so I started searching for a door to get into this buUt-on
part. There didn't seem to be any door and I went back into the
pantry and at that end of the pantry there was a nice httle desk built
in a httle hole cut in the shelves and by pulling the desk out there was a
door that slid in the wall and they had a space in there, I would say,
about 5 feet by the width of the dining room and up to the ceiling and
that was piled full.
Mr. Eberharter. Five feet by what?
Mr. Best. I believe the budding is 20 feet long and there would
be the aisle at the side. It would be about 5 feet by 15 and the
height of the building.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was there a number of such concealed pantries in
each of the mess halls?
Mr. Best. Yes; in many mess halls. I found those concealed
pantries other places. The other No. 6 kitchen had a sim.ilar one and
they had the door hidden with coats. They hung a lot of overcoats
up over the door.
Mr. MuNDT. What reason did the chefs give you for the existence of
the secret pantries?
Mr. Best. They didn't give anj^ reason at all. They laughed about
it and said that other cooks put them there.
This cook said he didn't know it was there. They just laughed
at it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was it a part of the building regularly built in?
Mr. Best. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. I mean were they built in originally?
Mr. Best. No; that is built on. They built it themselves. Almost
every kitchen has new store rooms that they have built on themselves.
In one case they were using the dining room for a theater and they
built a stage which was clear across the dining room and would
extend about 12 feet out, and I suppose it was almost as high as this
table from the floor, and underneath of that it was all boarded up
solid and underneath that it was packed so tight with case goods — case
goods of every description that it was quite a job to inventory it. We
had to take it all out to get an inventory of it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was it a case of simply stormg the goods there
because they had such an excessive amount or was it an attempt
to conceal the goods in these places?
Mr. Best. I believe it was a case of wanting to steal it and trade
it for whiskey, and so forth.
Mr. Costello. In other words out of every shipment received in
the mess halls some of it was stored away in secret locations?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Since these exposures do you know whether or not
there has been any improvement in conditions at Heart Mountain?
Mr. Best. Up to the tune I left there was not.
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated in your testimony that Japan-
ese were running the camp. Do you mean by that that the white
personnel are afraid to do anything in connection with administering
the camp, that would be contrary to the wishes of the Japanese?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Do the Japanese control the center through the
internal community govermnent set-up?
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9315
Mr. Best. Yes. At. the tiine I took the inventory at Heart
^Mountain, they had from six to seven hundred pounds of lard in each
kiteiuMi and a few days aft^' I finished the inventory I took Mr.
Haher's phice in the office and whik^ 1 was in the office we had a ship-
ment come in of 42 barrels — steel drums which would weigh about 300
pounds each, arrive and we had no place to put them, so I was in-
structed to send them to the kitchens.
On top of what they already had we had to send them another 300
pounds.
1 called on every kitchen every day and the Japanese were making a
lot of doughnuts. They would melt a large vat of lard, use it once
and throw it away. There was absolutely no grease being saved except
a little that the Boy Scouts gathered and sold locally.
\h\ Steedman. Did they have adequate storage facilities at Heart
Mountain to store material and subsistence?
Mr. Best. For a reasonable amount they had plenty of store room,
but they had such an unreasonable amount the store rooms were full.
Mr. Steedman. Did they have as much storage space at Heart
Mountain as they have at Boston?
Mr. Best. About as much as they have at Boston; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did the^^ have any secret pantries in the mess halls
at Boston?
Mr. Best. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I think that is all the questions I
have of Mr. Best at this time.
Mr. Eberharter. At the time you left were the Judo clubs still
in operation?
Air. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. How many kitchens were there at Heart
Mountain?
Air. Best. Forty-two, including the hospital.
Mr. Eberharter. W hen you made your first inventory, how
many of the 42 kitchens would you say had a surplus of food?
Mr. Best. Every one of them.
Mr. Eberharter. A surplus in each one of the kitchens?
Mr. Best. That is right. There were 6 that didn't have anything
hidden in the attic out of the 42.
Mr. Eberharter. That is what I wanted to find out. There were
onh^ six that did not have goods hidden in the attic?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Then that would be 36 instances out of 42 where
goods were hidden?
Mr. Best. That is right, sir. In the kitchen they had 480 pounds
of ham hidden in the attic and it had hung there so long — the Caucasian
butcher was with me helping me tluit day, and he examined it and he
declared 280 pounds unfit for human consumption. It had hung there
so long in the attic — it was directly above the stoves where it was veiy,
very hot and they no doubt threw it away.
Mr. Eberharter. Threw it in the garbage?
Mr. Best. I imagine they did. I didn't hear any more about it.
At one time they were ordered to dump 42 barrels of herring. They
claimed the herring was bad and they brought it down to the office and
the butcher, Mr. Van Buskirk, Mr. Ilaller, and myself examined it
and we could see nothing at all wrong with it. It was very good but
9316 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
the Japs didn't like herring and they already had more than they knew
what to do with, so Haller instructed them, if they didn't like it, tO'
throw it away; that he couldn't send it uack, but he could have sent
it back if it was bad. He should have had a health inspector condemn
it — some officer in charge and it should have been returned to the
quartermaster and we should have gotten credit for it.
I advised Mr. Haller of that and he said: "No, that is too much
work; let them dump it, and it is all charged up in their 45 cents."
Mr. Eberharter. He said, "It is too much work?"
Mr. Best. Yes; he said: "We will just diunp it, because," he said,
"after all, it is charged up to them." To the Japs.
There was also a truckload taken out of the hospital of spoiled goods.
Mr. Van Buskirk, he is the camp butcher — when I inventoried the
hospital, in their warehouse they had $12,000 worth of strained vege-
table juices for babies; they had between $800 and $900 worth of
zwiebach. The Japs couldn't make their own toast so they bought
them zwiebach.
In the kitchen there were eight lugs of sweetpotatoes that were
starting to spoil; there was also eight large sacks of tm^nips which
were spoiling. •
I instructed the chef to use this up right away because it was spoil-
ing and he was quite sarcastic with me. He told me to mind my own
business — that that was his business and he would look after it.
I called back there 8 days later and it was still piled up there and
not in use and then it was beyond use. I loaded ri into trucks — Van
Buskirk helped me and we took it down and showed it to Haller and
he said: "Well, it is all charged up in their 45 cents^ — take it out and
dump it and forget 'about it."
Mr. Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. Is it yom- belief that in order to arrive at this so-called
45 cents per day per Jap that they deliberately padded the census roll
there in order to increase the amount?
Mr. Best. That is my belief. That is what they tried to do —
what the Japanese tried to do with me at Boston before I went to
Heart Mountain.
I put a chart into each kitchen and asked them to count the amount
of people that ate at each meal and they had a chart there for 1 week.
At the end of the week when I totalled that up I found I had a couple
of thousand people too many in the camp. They were padding it up
in each kitchen so as to get more supplies.
Mr. MuNDT. And that was at Boston?
Mr. Best. Yes, sir; so that system didn't work at Heart Mountain.
The Japanese do all the bookkeeping, and when Mr. Haller wants to
know what his food cos^s he goes to the Japanese and they tell liim.
Mr. Mundt. In other words they compile the statistics from which
they tell us whether the rations cost 45 cents or 35 cents?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. Did you report the conditions that you found in these
kitchens — that is, that there were concealed and secret pantries, to the
project director?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. Wliat did he repty?
Mr. Best. He didn't take any action, to vaj knowledge.
Mr. Mundt. Nothing was done to correct it?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS 9317
Mv. Best. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. And that is Mr. Kobcrtson?
Mr. Best. That is right; also to Mr. Lane, the transportation
ofRcer, and Mr. Todd and Mr. Haller on many occasions.
Mr. MuNDT. x\s an old soldier you did not want to continue
working with that kind of outfit and you resigned?
Mr. Best. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you very much, Mr. Best, for appearing
before the committee today and giving us the testimony wliich you
have.
(Witness excused.)
i^fr. CosTELLO. The committee will take a 5-minute recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee w^ill be in order and you may pro-
ceed with your next witness, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. I am recalling Mr. Cavett in order that he may
complete his testimony.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS CAVETT— Resumed
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Cavett, exhibit 20 is copies of the Manzanar
Free Press immediately preceding and after the December incident,
which contains a story concerning the riots and strike which they had
at Manzttuar in December of 1942.
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to introduce this into the record as
exhibit 20.
Mr. Costello. It will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 20", and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Costello. Those are copies of papers published at the camp
at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; they are probably printed in the town
adjacent thereto.
Mr. Costello. But it is the official newspaper of the center?
Mr. Cavett. Yes. sir; and one of them contains an article about the
attempt to burn down the community store within the camp itself.
Mr. Costello. What is the date of that article?
^fr. Cavett. November 30, 1942.
Air. Costello, Briefly, what is the story of that attempted burn-
ing?
Mr. Cavett (reading) :
Attempted arson foiled as store blaze quenched.
With all evidences pointing to an incendiary origin, a fire at the general store
Friday evening at 9:20 was discovered in the nick of time by Y. Tanabe, who
extinguished it before it could gain any damaging headway.
Mr. Steedman. Next is a document containing a list of evacuees
leaving Manzanar center on May Uth for employment by the Amal-
gamated Sugar Co., and I would like to mtroduce'this into the record
as exhibit 21.
Mr. Costello. "What is the origin of the list?
Mr. Steedman. We identified all these exhibits as having come
from the Manzanar project and having been furnished to Mr, Cavett
by Air. Alerritt.
9318 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mf. Costello. This is a part of the material Mr. Cavett received
from the officials at Manzanar?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Costello. This will be received as exhibit 21.
(Ihe document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 21," and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Cavett, do you recall the incident at Man-
zanar on December 6, 1942, during the riot, when Japanese-American
Boy Scouts protected the United States flag?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And those Japanese-American Boy Scouts were-
members of the center at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, exhibit 22 is a list of those Boy
Scouts who yjrotected our flag at Manzanar during the course of the
riot and I would lil-ce to introduce the names of those boys into the
record.
Mr. Costello. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 22" and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, exhibit No. 23 is a summary of
statistical reports of hospital for the month of April 1943, including
births, deaths, admissions, discharges, communicable diseases, daily
in-patients, surgery, and the various clinics for the month of April
1943; and I would like to introduce this into the record.
Mr. Costello. Without objection it will be so ordered.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 23" and
made a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. When you conferred with Mr. Merritt, the project
director, was the conversation with Mr. Merritt taken down in short-
hand by one of the stenographers emploj'cd at the War Relocation
project at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And is this document which I am now holding in
my hand the original transcript of the notes taken down at that
meeting?
Mr. Cavett. It is.
Mr. Steedman. This document has been marked "Committee
Exhibit 25" for identification only. We do not wish this exhibit to be
included in the record, but Mr. Cavett desires to testify from the
exhibit.
Did you ask Mr. Merritt if the evacuees were segregated as to-
good and bad Japanese?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. What did he say?
Mr. Cavett. His answer is on page 3:
The segregation of the different groups was attempted and carried through
immediately following our riot. At that time, within 2 weeks after my arrival,
the "bad ones" were taken to Moab, Utah. There were 16 at that time and
since then 10 more have gone to Moab.
Mr. Steedman. Moab is a small, isolated camp out from Manzanar
where they are trying to segregate bad Japanese from the good ones;
is that correct?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; it is some place out there. It is not right
in the camp.
UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9319
Mr. Steedman. It is an isolation camp?
Mr. Cavett. An isolation camp; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Merritt say how many Japanese were in
the isolation camp?
Mr. Cavett. No. He didn't know how many were actually in
there.
Mr. Steedman. But he said he had sent 16?
Mr. Cavett. Yes; he sent 16 in one bunch.
Mr. Steedman. That is for internment under the direction of the
Army?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Did joii ask Mr. Merritt if the Japanese were or-
ganized into groups with special names?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; and liis reply was as follows:
No, apparently not. We have had three classes of Japanese: Issei, Nisei, and
Kibei. An Issci is a person born in Japan; a Nisei is a person born in the United
States and who has not been to Japan for the purpose of securing an education
or staying for any length of time; a Kibei is a person born in the United States
who has returned to Japan for education, spending 3 years or more there dur-
ing his formative years. A very few of each of these groups have been the
troublemaking type, but on the whole the Kibei furnished the largest num_ber of
our troublemakers. We have been niaking a very careful and thorough investi-
gation of the Kibei group in this center in the past month. We have personally
questioned 503 Kibei to get their complete story down in type"\\ritten form.
These men were born in this country but educated in Japan,
Mr. Steedman. Did you ask Mr. Merritt regarding a Japanese by
the name of Carl Yoneda?
Mr. Cavett. Yes. I asked him regarding Carl Yoneda and his
answer was as follows — I will start in with my question:
Have you a Japanese man here by the name of Carl Yoneda, married to a
woman by the name of Elaine Black, said to be a Jewess.
Mr. Merritt started to check up on this and then found the man
in question was Carl Yoneda, and Mr. Merritt stated as follows —
then he brought out in the meantime his personnel record which he
had and said:
He was a waterfront worker in San Francisco and the right-hand man of
Harry Bridges; his wife was a member of the Commvmist Party and an officer
of some Communist organization; that Yoneda is in the military language school
at Savage, Minn.
I asked him if his wife was with hun and he said:
No, his wife and the boy are on the coast.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact Carl Yoneda ran for public
office on the Communist Party ti(;ket a number of times, didn't he?
Mr. Cavett. I think we have his history here. I think his back-
ground is that he is a Communist, both he and his wife.
!Mr. Costello. And he is now in a military language school?
Mr. Cavett. A military language school at Savage, Minn. They
are going to make an intelligence officer out of him.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean this Japanese that used to be a Com-
munist organizer is now being educated by the Government at the
Savage, Minn., school, for intelligence purposes?
Mr. Cavett. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. And you know lie is a Com.munist?
Mr. Cavett. Yes; we have his record.
9320 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. He is not there just to teach the Japanese language
or something of that short?
Mr. Cavett. I don't know. According to Mr. Merritt, he is a
member of the armed forces now. His answer was:
Yes; he is in the military language school at Savage, Minn.
Mr. Steedman. You will recall, Mr. Chairman, we have testimony
to the effect they were recruiting Japanese Americans who speak the
Japanese language at Poston, to go to this school.
Mr. Costello. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. I thought the F. B. I. was supposed to investigate
those who go to Savage.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please read into the record Mr. Merritt's
comment with reference to the rewards granted and the penalties im-
posed on Japanese at the Manzanar center?
Mr. Cavett (reading):
We have no system of rewards and penalties. The penalties are only for those
infractions of the laws of this center. We have two types of law: The law of the
State of California, and our center rules. One man was recently charged with
disturbing the peace. The case was taken next morning before the local justice
of the peace and prosecuted by the district attorney of this county. The man is
now in the Independence County jail. He is the only man in jail for any reason.
In addition, we have our center rules pertaining to traffic and so forth.
Question. The penalties, then, are practically nonexistent?
Answer. Yes, except as they would be imposed on any citizen in normal life.
Question. What are the restrictions jjJaced on the residents here?
Answer. They must remain in the boundaries of the center. Picnics are
allowed within the area.
Question. Where do they go for picnics, and how far?
Answer. Just to the local creeks, which is a distance of about 2 miles. Tlie
boundaries of the center are posted with General De Witt's orders.
Question. Then the imniediate area is the fenced area, and the picnic area is
outside the fenced area?
Ansv/er. That is correct. The picnic area is outside the center but inside the
boundaries of the Manzanar posted area.
Mr. Steedman. Did you take up with Mr. Merritt the question as
to whether or not there were any cameras in the center at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir. And I will read from this transcript:
Question. Have there been any firearms in the baggage or explosives?
. Answer. No.
Question. Knives or swords?
Answer. Some knives such as used in a kitchen, and various tools, but no
swords.
Question. Contraband that has been taken from the Japanese baggage when
shipped in, is now on the grounds in a warehouse?
Answer. Yes; it is in the custody of our military police force. Certain items
are released to the evacuees on relocation.
Question. All cameras were to have been taken up before the Japanese came
here?
Answer. Some were taken from personal belongings.
Mr. Steedman. In other words, some Japanese arrived at the
Manzanar center with cameras in their personal belongings?
Mr. Cavett. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. But they were searched and the cameras were
taken away from them?
Mr. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Did you ask Mr. Merritt regarding the censoring
cf mail at Manzanar?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9321
Mr. Cavett. Yes. He was questioned regarding the censoring of
mail. This question was asked:
Do you know whether or not the mail was censored there?
Answer. The mail was not censored and no packages coming in or out were
censored at any of the camps, and Manzanar is no exception. They can ship
in anything at all — in or out.
Mr. Steedman. Did you ask Mr. Merritt about Japanese having
radios at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes. All Japanese have radios that want them at
Manzanar. They are not outlawed. They do not have short-wave
sets but they have the regular sets.
Mr. Steedman. Will you please read into the record what Mr.
Merritt had to say about the riot that occurred at Manzanar on
December 6? If the committee has no objection, I will read that
into the record for Mr. Cavett.
Mr. Costello. Very well.
Mr. Steedman (reading):
Our incident of December 6 was caused primarily by the fact that various
groups here were dissatisfied and mad about various things that had occurred even
much before evacuation. They brought their political griefs and intrigues from
Los Angeles. They brought all of the disappointments of evacuation, and there
were many groups "here who believed the Government had given various promises
which haci not been kept since coming to Manzanar.
These people were brought together in a dissatisfied mob because of the fact
that on the 3d and 4th of December Federal Bureau of Investigation agents caine
into Manzanar and questioned the pro-American group about the activities of
other Japanese in the center and based upon the information received from these
pro-American Japanese the Federal Bureau of Investigation took out of Manzanar
four men who had been charged by the pro-American group as being pro-Japanese.
Their friends and families immediately charged the pro-American group as
being stool pigeons. Many people in the center tried to stop the stool pigeons by
beating up on these people.
On December 4 Fred Tayama was beaten up. It was then my job to find the
people responsible for beating up Tayama and several men were arrested. The
men who were arrested were considered by the camp as heroes, because they were
believed to be ending the stool pigeon activities of the pro-American group.
Then the question was asked:
What is the definition of a stool pigeon?
Answer. Any man who tells on anyone else. The Japanese are very much
against informers. The informer is known as a dog, and is the worst type of m.an.
Question. Would the term "informer" be applied to loyal Japanese who might
inform or report disloyal activities of disloyal Japanese?
Answer. As they see it, any man who informs on any other man for any purpose
is an informer. In this case it was a case of American and anti-American. The
agitating members of the center were able to bring together all of the discontented
people into a crowd under the guise of using the opportunity to rid the camp of
informers.
Question. Were clubs used?
Answer. Yes; in beating Tayama.
Question. What happened then?
■ Answer. On the night of December 4, Tayama was beaten up and almost killed.
I immediately arrested one man and held others on suspicion. Harry Ueno was
the man arrested.
Question. Was he a Los Angeles man?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Was he Kibei?
Answer. Yes. Ueno was held in the Independence jail.
At noon on the 6th of Deceml^er the entire center sat in a mass meeting to
protest the arrest of Ueno as they thought he was doing good for the center.
9322 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
During the afternoon and early evening of December 6 this crowd got completely
out of hand of the leaders who called it together so that it was necessary for me to
call upon the military police to disperse the crowd.
The wind was against us for the use of tear gas. Firing began right after dark
on the part of two of the military police. After 10 men were shot down, the
captain gave orders for firing to cease. The crowd was dispersed and the camp
remained in a sullen mood for about 10 days.
From this we have worlied out a workable system of handling the center. Since
that time the Federal Bureau of Investigation have made their contacts through
my office and they do not use their former stool-pigeon methods. The Japanese
are being assured of this and have cooperated to the fullest extent during the past
month in collecting the information so desired by the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation. I have records of this information.
Question. Was there a Japanese flag put up on a mast during the trouble?
Answer. No flag was hoisted. That is alwaj's reported as happening at the
other centers. In fact, we had a group of Japanese Boy Scouts who voluntarily
stood around our flag to defend it against anyone who might try to tear it down.
Mr. Steedman. Air. Chairman, that is the account of the trouble at
Manzanar on December 6, which was just prior to the anniversaiy of
Pearl Harbor, as recounted by Mr. Merritt, who was the project
director at Manzanar.
I would like to call your attention to the similarity of this riot or
strike with the riot or strike at Poston at about the same time.
Mr. CosTELLO. They apparently started out on a similar basis;
namely, holding one or two Japanese as prisoners and then a demand
on the part of the other Japanese in the camp for their release?
Mr. Steedman. That is correct, sir. Was there a branch of the
Kendo or Judo at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. I asked Mr. Merritt: "Is there any branch of Kendo
or Judo here," and he stated: "We have a Japanese fencing group and a
Japanese Judo group."
Mr. Steedman. Did you question Mr. Memtt regarding the various
religious groups at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sh [reading]:
To clear up this point what is the basic spiritual or religious belief here?
Answer. Appro.ximately half of the members of our center are Buddhists.
Question. Any particular sect?
Answer. No. We have a Buddhist Church for all Buddhists. We have not
allowed the development of any particular sect.
Mr. Steedman. Were there any Shintoists at the Manzanar center
or a Shinto Church?
Mr. Cavett. No Shintoists there.
Mr. Steedman. As a matter of fact didn't Mr. Merritt later find
that Goichi Ishimaru, who was a known member of the Shintoist
Church, or a priest in the Shintoist Church in Los Angeles, was at
the Manzanar relocation center?
Mr. Cavett. He stated they had no known Shintoists in the center
but that it was later found that Goichi Ishimaru was listed as a
Shintoist. He stated Goichi Ishimaru had no family and had applied
for repatriation.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Cavett asked Mr. Merritt
regarding the internal set-up of the camp at Manzanar and I would
like to quote from the statement with reference to the internal set-up
and I do quote:
Question. What do you call the organizations most prominent in the center?
Answer. The organizations which function in this center are local to the center.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEfS 9323
For administrative purposes we have an advisory council consisting
of an elected representative from each of the four blocks. There are
nine members.
Eacli block has a block manager elected by the people of the l)lock. The block
managers are in effect hotel keepers who see that the people of the block have
use of the utilities and sanitary facilities.
The block managers meet once a week to bring in the thoughts and ideas of the
block and I meet with the block managers every Fridaj^ morning to discuss these
problems.
In addition we have many social organizations in the center which have to do
with such things as Mr. Kondo's public affairs group meeting once a week in
which he interprets current events. There is a music club and there are other
additional recreational and social groups.
Question. How many organizations would you say there are here?
Answer. As Mrs. Adams says, approximately 30 educational groups and 25
social groups. Alumni groups, Y. M., Y. \\., reading clubs, young Buddhists
and religious groups.
Mr. Steedman. Did you ask Mr. Merritt how much territory there
was in the confines of the Manzanar center?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, and his answer was:
Answer. Our total area is 6,000 acres. It is leased by the Army from the city
'Of Los Angeles.
Question. V\ hat are the dimensions?
Answer. Approximately 2 miles ^^ide and about 5 miles long.
Question. Is this fenced in?
Answer. One scpiare mile where the people are confined is fenced in.
Qu.estion. With what?
Answer. Barbed wire fence approximately 5 feet high.
Mr. Steedman. Did you ask Mr. Merritt how far the aqueduct
Avas from the relocation center at Manzanar?
Mr. Cavett. 1 ask Mr. Merritt that question and he said:
The nearest ditch is approximately 1 mile east of here.
Mr. Steedman. And that aqueduct is the aqueduct which brings
water to the city of Los Angeles?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; the main line.
Mr. Eberharter. Is that the main water supply for the city of
lios Angeles?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; that is the main supply. The city line comes
down from there.
Mr. CosTELLO. Part from the Inyo-Mono . Basin and the other
supply comes from the Colorado River.
Mr. Eberharter. I want to ascertain if this aqueduct furnishes a
considerable portion of the water supply for the city of Los Angeles?
Mr. CosTELLO. I think the mayor testified that the Owens River
Aqueduct provides water for facilities for one and a half million people.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Cavett, jou visited all of the relocation centers
with the exception of the ones in Arkansas and Tule Lake; is that
correct?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask you an abstract question regard-
ing the camps: Which center would you say is the worst?
Mr. Cavett. The worst is a toss up between Rivers and Heart
Alountain. Rivers is especially noted for its subversive activities and
Heart Mountain for strikes, lock-outs, sit-down strikes, and just general
.trouble of all natures.
Mr. Steedman. That is all.
9324 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Which would you say is the best?
Mr. Cavett. I think Poston and Manzanar are about as well
handled as any of them. Poston is just as well handled as any of
them — Poston and Manzanar.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe the conditions at some of these
camps, so far as controlling Japanese subversive activities is concerned,
that those conditions are worse at other camps?
Mr. Cavett. Yes; especially the un-American activities at Rivers.
It is awful. Something should be done immediately at Rivers.*
Mr. Costello. Do you feel that the un-American activities going
at the Rivers camp exceeds all that we have heard here thus far
regarding Poston?
Mr. Cavett. Yes. In other words we haven't heard anything at
all of un-American activities of any consequence compared to Rivers.
I have the statements of two Japanese taken down in shorthand.
Both of these men were World War veterans and they said they could ■
stand it themselves and did not expect to come out of the camp alive
on account of the activities that they were pursuing in opposing these
disloyal Japanese, but they think the Government should step in and
take out the disloyal Japanese for the protection of, at least, the
children, because all the work that has been done in the past toward
Americanization of the Japanese, he said, was just a case of every day
how many less you can salvage.
The statements of these two men are in the record.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask you one adcUtional question:
Did you ask Mr. Merritt whether or not he thought the Army
should be put in charge of the relocation centers?
Mr. Cavett. Yes, sir; I asked him that question.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you read the question you asked him?
Mr. Cavett. The question I put to him was:
Do you think from your experience that the center should be under the present
set-up or under a strict military set-up? What is your opinion on this?
His answer was:
That is a matter for the War Department or the War Relocation Authority
to determine.
Mr. MuNDT. That is aU he said in reply to your question?
Air. Cavett. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. He did not, as the project director under the W. R.
A., recommend that the W. R. A. continue to control the center?
Mr. Cavett. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. MuNDT. That is an eloquent statement by its silence.
Mr. Cavett. I will add that in some of the other statements offi-
cials came out and stated their opinions definitely, and those state-
ments are in the transcript.
Mr. Steedman. That is all the questions I have.
Mr. Costello. That concludes the session for this afternoon.
The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(Thereupon, at G p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 10 a. m.,
Thursday, June 17, 1943.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGxiNM
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, JUNE 17, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to
Investigate Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., in room 1543, United States
Post Office and Courthouse, Los Angeies, Cahf. Hon. John M.
Costello, cliairman of the subcommittee, presiding.
Present: Hon. John 1\1. Costello, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter,
and Hon. Karl E. Alundt.
Also present: James H. Steedman, investigator for the committee,
acting counsel.
^xr. Costello. The committee will be m order, and Mr. Steedman,
you may call the fu-st witness.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, the first witness this morning is
Gen. Thobm-n K. Brown, commanding the soutliern land frontier
sector.
Air. Costello. General Brown, in view of the fact you are an
officer of the United States Army, it is not necessary to swear you in
for any testimony you give before the committee.
TESTIMONY OF GENERAL THOBURN K. BROWN, UNITED STATES
ARMY, COMMANDING THE SOUTHERN LAND FRONTIER
SECTOR
Mr. Costello. The reason we have asked you to appear before the
committee this morning, is that in the course of our testimony that
has been taken during the past week, we had various representatives
here from the State of Arizona.
They testified many strategic installations in and around the city of
Phoenix, Ariz., are not adequately protected and guarded. The
committee felt it would be proper for it to inquu'e into that situation
and see whether somcthmg should not be done to make sure there is no
possibility of sabotage to any important, strategic mstallations of
that character.
Particular reference was made to the water system that has been
developed to irrigate the Gila Kiver project, adjacent to Phoenix.
Mr. xVluNDT. l\lr. Chairman, you might add for the general's
information, the mayor of Los Angeles was in and gave somewhat
similar testimony concerning the water system and reservoirs around
the camp at Manzanar.
Mr. Costello. Of course, the installations adjacent to Manzanar
are definitely not under General Brown's jurisdiction, but the mayor
9325
62626 — 43— vol. 15 32
9326 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
of Los Angeles did indicate that the same conditions relate to the
Japanese relocation center at Manzanar as well as in Arizona.
The country adjacent to Manzanar, of course, is the principal
source of water supply for the city of Los Angeles and for the area
adjacent thereto.
Might I ask, General, whether the reservoirs adjacent to Phoenix,
Ariz., particularly Roosevelt, Coolidge Dam, and Morman Flat and
the other dams there, are under your jurisdiction?
General Brown. No, sir; they are not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Your jurisdiction does not extend that far north
from the border?
General Brown. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. You, therefore, v/ould not have any control of the
matter of assigning guards to such an installation?
General Brown. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. I wonder if you might inform the committee as to
who would be the proper officer to contact regarding such installa-
tions and what procedure is normally followed by the Army in obtain-
ing additional guards for strategic installations of that character?
General Brown. Those two dams are in the territorial jurisdiction
of the Ninth Service Command, commanded by General Joyce.
Mr. CosTELLO. And his headquarters are v/here?
General Brown. Fort Douglas, Salt Lake City, Utah.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you give us General Joyce's first name?
General Brown. Gen. Kenyon A. Joyce.
Normally State utility installations, and also those of private com-
panies receive military guard or make application for military guard
to the commanding general and then it becomes a decision for him to
make, considering the employment of troops and the number he has
on hand and so on.
The policy that we are guided by, generally, is this: That normally
cities, States, and private corporations furnish their own guards but
in exceptional cases where the installations are of vital importance
to the war effort a commander is justified in placing sufficient guards
to safeguard these installations.
Mr. CosTELLO. Such a decision. General, as to whether guards
should or should not be placed, of course, depends upon the decision
of the commanding officer of that area?
General Brown. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. And also depends on the personnel he might have
available for such purposes?
General Brown. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. We recognize the fact that the Army cannot keep
a tremendous army at home if we want to fight a war all around the
world.
General Brown. I think that is the policy.
Mr. CosTELLO. As far as this installation is concerned, it would be
proper for the Governor of Arizona to request a military guard, if he
thought that were necessary?
General Brown. That is the procedure.
Mr. CosTELLO. But you, of course, do not know whether such a
request might have been made or not?
General Brown. No, I do not.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9327
Mr. CosTELLO. Or what the conditions might be as to the avail-
ability of troops for such a purpose?
. General Brown. No. I do know that the troops available to
General Jo^'ce for such missions are rather limited.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Ninth Service Command covers quite a largo
area, does it not?
General Brown. Yes; it does.
IVIr. CosTELLo. In fact, several States would be included in that
area?
General Brown. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. CosTELLo. Therefore, in that area there would be a tremen-
dous number of strategic installations that might require protection
of this character?
General Brown. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Eberharter?
Mr. Eberharter. General BrowTi, would yo\i care to indicate, or
inform the committee whether or not the territory under your juris-
diction has received guards from your command for the protection of
both public and private properties?
General Browx. Yes, sir.^
Mr. Eberharter. Of course, you understand your testimony here
may be published?
General Brown. Yes, sir. I have the copper smelters and mines
in Arizona. We consider them very important to the war effort and
I have placed guards on the Douglas Smelter and other works.
Mr. CosTELLO. General, I might state it isn't necessary to specify
particular installations if you desire not to do so.
General Brown. I have assisted both private corporations and
States and cities also.
Mr. Eberharter. You have assisted them?
General Brown. I have.
Mr. Costeli.o. You feel, General, the strategic installations ad-
jacent to the border are adequatel}^ ])rotected against possible sabotage
or damage that might occur to them?
General Brown. I think so.
Mr. Mundt. General Brown, inasmuch as you have placed some
guards and troops at the copper smelters, I presume that you feel
that the power which feeds the electric lines into the smelters and
mines is of rather vital significance to our war effort?
General Brown. It certainly is.
Mr. Mundt. And that power comes from some of these reservoirs
about which we have been discussing, is that not right?
General Brown. That is correct.
Mr. Mundt. And those power plants and reservoirs are in the
area commanded by General Joyce?
General Brown. Yes; the dams themselves.
Mr. Mundt. May I ask this question: The committee plans to
transmit to the Governors of Arizona and California a transcript of
the hearing had this morning and a transcript of the hearing at which
time representatives from Arizona testified about the alleged danger
to their dams, and the testimony which the mayor of Los Angeles
gave us detailing the circumstances at Manzanar.
9328 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
If we transmit transcripts of those hearings, together with your
testimony to those two executives, are we following the correct
procedure?
General Brown. Yes; I would think so.
Mr. MuNDT. And we are following the correct procedure in calling
the attention of the proper authorities to the dangers or alleged
dangers in those areas?
General Brown. Yes; I think so.
Mr. MuNDT. And we need do nothing further in that connection?
General Brown. I think if their attention is called to that, that
that should be sufficient.
Mr. MuNDT. If the Governors, after reading the transcript of these
hearings share the alarm which we feel on the committee, they should
then contact General Joyce directly and work out a joint defense
system among themselves?
General Brown. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you.
Mr. CosTELLO. We appreciate very much, General Brown, your
making yourself available to the committee this morning and coming
here to give us this information.
We felt the situation as indicated by the testimony calls for some
action on the part of this committee to make sure that nothing is left
unattended that should be done, in order to protect these installations.
We want to thank you for your testimony here this morning and
being present with us.
Mr. MuNDT. I might add, General, for your information that this
committee is going to do all it can to keep the Japanese who may be
disloyal from having access to these strategic installations, but we
thought we should go the second mile and make this information also
available to the military authorities.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you very much, General.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman", the next witness is Mr. A. L. Wirin,
who appears before the committee on behalf of the American Civil
Liberties Union.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Whin?
TESTIMONY OF A. L. WIRIN, ATTORNEY, AMERICAN CIVIL
LIBERTIES UNION, SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BRANCH
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your full name?
Mr. Wirin. My name is A. L. Wirin.
Mr. CosTELLO. And what is your address?
Mr. Wirin. 257 South Spring Street, Los Angeles.
I am an attorney and am attorney for the southern California
branch of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Other representatives of the Civil Liberties Union are here. I
would like to state their names for the record:
Rev. E. P. Ryland, who is chairman of the southern California
committee, and these gentlemen live in Los Angeles,
Mr. Jerome W^. MacNair, who is a businessman in Los Angeles
and a member of the executive board of the southern California
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS 9329
committee of llio Civil Liberties Union, and Rev. Clinton J. Taft,
who is the director of the southern California committee.
Mr. Steedman. I would like to ask a few preliminary questions.
Mr. "WiRiN. By all means.
Mr. Steedman. "What is your present address?
Mr. WiRiN. 257 South Spring Street, Los Angeles.
Mr. Steedman. And are you married?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. Where were you born?
Mr. WmiN. I was born in Russia.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. WiRiN. 1900.
;Mr. Steedman. When did you come to the United States?
Mr. WiRiN. 1908.
Mr. Steedman. Where were you naturalized?
Mr. WiRiN. I was not naturalized. My father was naturalized
and I am a citizen by virtue of his naturalization.
Mr. Steedman. Aiid what is your father's name?
Mr. WiRiN. Baranett Wirin.
Mr. Steedman. Where was he naturalized?
Mr. Wirin. Boston, Mass.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. Wirin. In 1916 or 1917. I am not certain of the date.
Mr. Steedman. Where did you attend school?
Mr. Wirin. I attended and gTaduated Harvard College in 1921.
got my law training at Boston University Law School.
Mr. Steedman. When did you graduate from the Boston Univer-
sity Law School?
Mr. Wirin. I didn't graduate, Boston University Law School, but
I completed my work there about 1927.
Mr. Steedman. You are admitted to the bar in California?
Mr. Wirin. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. When were you admitted to the local board?
Mr. Wirin. Soirie 15 years ago.
Mr. Steedman. Are you a member of any other bar?
Mr. Wirin. I am a member of the Massachusetts bar and of the
Oregon bar and of the Supreme Court of the United States bar.
yiv. Steedman. What organizations are you a member of in addi-
tion to the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr. Wirin. So far as I loiow I am not a member of any other
organization as a member. I am special counsel for the Japanese
American Citizens League, and I have been requested by that organiza-
tion to appear here and make a short statement about its purposes and
activities.
Mr. Steedman. You have a statement from the J. A. C. L. to that
effect?
Mr. Wirin. I do not have a formal statement from them, but I
represent the Japanese American Citizens League in the case of Regan
against King, involving the question of citizenship of American-born
Japanese.
My name appears on the brief in that case and I represented publicly
that organization.
Mr. Steedman. And the Japanese American Citizens League has
requested you to speak for them today?
9330 UN-AMERICAK' PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. WiRiN. They have.
Mr. Steedman. Would you mind indicating who is the president of
the Japanese American Citizens League at the present time?
Mr. WiRiN. The president is Mr. Saburo Kido. He is now at Salt
Lake City, Utah, the headquarters of the league. He was formerly a
resident of California for some 15 or 20 years, practicing law in San
Francisco as a member of the California bar.
Mr. Steedman. Have you ever been employed in the United
States Government service?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. When?
Mr. WiRiN. From 1935 to 1937, approximately.
Mr. Steedman. And in what agency?
Mr. WiRiN. I was senior office attorney for the National Labor
Relations Board.
Mr. Steedman. In Washington, D. C?
Mr. Wirin. Li Washington, D. C. ; yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And jou have been practicing law in California and
Los Angeles since 1937?
Mr. Wirin. Yes.
Mr. Steedman. What law firm are you a member of?
Mr. Wirin. I am not now a member of any law firm. I am prac-
ticing law alone. I have an assistant, too, but he is now in the
United States Army.
Mr. Steedman. What is his name?
Mr. Wirin. Fred Okrand.
Mr. Steedman. Were you ever a member of the law firm of Gal-
lagher, W^irin & Johnson?
Mr. Wirin. I was.
Mr. Steedman. How long were you a member of that firm, Mr.
Wirin?
Mr. Wirin. About 4 years. That firm primarily did work for
labor unions and more particularly for the C. I. O. organization in
California. But at the same time as a member of the firm I did con-
siderable work formerly, as I am domg now, for the Civil Liberties
Union.
Mr. Steedman. Did that law firm also represent the Communist
Party in the State of California??
Mr. Wirin. I don't think the law firm ever represented the Com-
munist Party. I appeared for the Civil Liberties Union in connection
with the rights of the Communist Party to appear upon the ballot of
California and the Supreme Court upheld our position in that respect.
Mr. Gallagher, I think — I know, at times has represented the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Steedman. And he is the senior or was the senior member of
the firm of Gallagher, Wirin & Jolmson?
Mr. Wirin. I think he might be called that.
Mr. Steedman. And Mr. Gallagher ran for attorney general in the
State of California in 1938 on the Communist Party ticket; is that
correct?
Mr. Wirin. I think he ran for secretary of state.
Mr. Steedman. In 1938?
Mr. Wirin. I am not sure as to the date.
Mr. Steedman. Either 1936 or '38?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9331
Mr. WiRix. I am not ('(>rtain of the date. However, I have never
been a member of the Communist Party nor am I now. My sole in-
terest in the Communist Party has been its rights under the Consti-
tution.
Air. Steediman. I am glad to have that statement.
Mr. WiRiN. I have friends among the Communists and I hope I
have friends among all other groups.
Mr. Steedman. How many Japanese clients do you have at the
present time, Mr. Wirin?
Mr. WiKix. I have no Japanese chents except the Japanese
American Citizens League, for whom I am acting as special counsel.
I became interested in the Japanese American Citizens League and
became its counsel subsequent to the evacuation. My contacts with
the Japanese prior to the evacuation were nil. I had no mterest in
the Japanese as a group prior to the evacuation.
My present interest in the group is solely because of the rights
which I believe it has under the Constitution as a minority racial
group.
Mr. Steedman^ Have you represented any Japanese clients other
than the client that you indicated in your testimony just a few minutes
ago?
Mr. WiRTH. Li the testimony I gave a few minutes ago, if you are
referring to the case of Regan against King, I represented no Japanese
client except in the case of the Japanese American Citizens League,
in which I secured leave of the circuit court to appear as a friend of
the court and I appeared before the circuit court in that capacity.
Mr. Steedmax. At the present time you have no clients of Japanese
extraction whatsoever?
Mr. "W'iRiN. None at all. I did appear for the Civil Liberties Union
as friend of the court in a case in Los Angeles in the superior court,
and then the district court of appeals, known as Brown against Oshuro,
involving the rights of a Japanese lessee of a hotel, as to whether or
not the Japanese lessee continued to be liable on the contract in view
of the evacuation.
I appeared M^holly as a friend of the court and the district court of
appeals agreed with our position.
Air. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, I believe Mr. Wirin has a formal
statement he would like to make to the committee; and you are at
libert}^ to make that statement at this time.
Mr. CosTELLO. We are very glad to hear the statement which j'^ou
are about to give. As we understand it is in connection with the Civil
Liberties L^nion?
Mr. WiRix. Yes, sir; and I would like to make an additional state-
ment with respect to the Japanese American Citizens League.
Air. Steedman, It might be appropriate at this time to insert into
the record a letter on the letterhead of the American Civil Liberties
L^nion, dated June 16, 1943, addressed to the committee, 1405 Federal
Building, Los Angeles, Calif.
Gentlemen, this will authorize Attorney A. L. Wirin to appear before j'our
committee on behalf of the American Civil Liberties Union, southern California
branch, and give such information as he may have concerning the Japanese who
have been evacuated from the coastal areas.
Sincerely yours,
Clinton J. Taft, Director.
9332 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
I would like to offer the letter in evidence and suggest it be inserted
in the record at this point.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without objection it will be inserted in the record.
I might state at this point, Mr. Wirin, that you are appearing here
at your own request and the reason why the committee has requested
the letter of this character is so that the committee might know who-
ever is appearmg here is appearing as the official spolcesman of what-
ever organization he proposed to speak for.
Other witnesses who appear at our request do not furnish us with
that background, but since you requested an appearance before the
committee on behalf of the organization you represent, we asked for
that background.
You may proceed.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you designate clearly the point at which you
cease to speak for the Civil Liberties Union and start with the other?
Mr. Wirin. Yes. Let me state that I and the committee for whom
I am spokesman, appreciate your consideration in allowing us to ap-
pear and present our views.
I do not have a formal statement but I'shall.make^a statement and
it will be very brief, and if you desire to ask questions, I shall be glad
to answer them.
First, I want to speak very briefly as to our position, the Civil
Liberties Union, with respect to the matter of citizenship for Ameri-
can-born Japanese.
We believe that citizenship should not be or may not be under the
Constitution, based upon race or ancestry, but that all persons irre-
spective of race or ancestry, should be entitled to citizenship on the
same basis without discrimination.
In that connection very briefly I want to call your attention to some
litigation in which the Civil Liberties Union participated. I refer to
the case of Regan against King, and perhaps I ought to give you the
number of the case in the circuit com't of appeals. It is No. 10299.
That was a proceeding filed by Mr. Regan, who, I thmk, is the
secretary of the Native Sons of the Golden West — sponsored by them,
in which the former attorney general of this State, Gen. U. S. Webb,
represented Mr. Regan.
The defendant was Cameron King, the registrar of voters in the
city and county of San Francisco.
It was a suit filed in the Federal Court in San Francisco, to secure
cancelation to the rights of citizenship of persons of Japanese descent
or persons born in the United States of Japanese descent' And while
no Japanese was named as a defendant, the names of a hundred or
more Japanese were included among the names that were to be stricken
from the registry of voters in the city and county of San Francisco.
The district fudge. Judge St. Sure, after a hearing, dismissed the
suit and held that American -born persons of whatever race are entitled
to citizensliip under the fourteenth amendment.
An appeal v,^as taken to the circuit court of appeals. In the circuit
court of appeals the Japanese American Citizens League appeared
as a friend of the court and the American Civfl Liberties Union, and
the National Lawyers' Guild, each filing briefs and I was given per-
mission to argue before the court, but the court sitting en banc, a
seven judge court, after hearing the presentation of General Webb,
without even adjourning from the bench, after a hurried conference,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9333
announced there wasn't any case presented 'by General Webb and by
Mr. Kegan of the Native Sons of the Goklen West, and summarily
aflirmed the judgment of the trial court, dismissing the case.
A petition for a writ of certiorari was filed by Mr. Regan to the
Supreme Court of the United States. No opposition to the petition
was prepared by an3'One.
On ^Iay 17, 1943, in the case of Regan against King, bearing the
Supreme Court No. 986 of the October term for 1942, the Supreme
Court summarily denied the petition for writ of certiorari and that
litigation is now tenniiiated.
Generally the position of the Civil Liberties Union in that connec-
tion is in accord A\'ith the statement by the President of the United
States, made on the occasion of the setting up a special combat unit
in the United States Arnw consisting of citizens of Japanese ancestry,
and I quote just one sentence from that statement as reflecting our
view.
In a statement made by the President to the Secretary of War,
imder date of February 1, 1943, approving the setting up of oppor-
tunities for American citizens of Japanese ancestry to serve in the
armed forces, the President said, among other things, and I c^uote:
The principle upon which this country was founded and by which it has always
been governed, is that Americanism is a matter of the mind and heart; American-
ism is not and never was a matter of race or ancestry.
Now, I would like to move on, stUl speaking for the Civil Liberties
L^nion, with respect to another problem involving Japanese with
which the committee is interested, as I understand it.
The evacuation of Japanese from the Pacific coast, including the
evacuation of some 70,000 American citizens of Japanese ancestry,
is, for the moment, a fait accompli — an accomplished fact, and I do
not care to, unless the committee desires to question me about it, to
go at all extensively into the propriety or constitutionality of that act.
I may state a word about it though and then I want to move on
to what is more immediate, and that is, if you are interested in our
position as to the return of the Japanese to the Pacific coast.
When the Tolan committee held hearings in Los iVngeles, I. appeared
before it for the Southern California Committee of the Civil Liberties
Union and stated our position that the evacuation of persons of a
particular racial group, particularly without hearings, was a violation
of the constitutional rights, and stated the Civil Liberties Union
would participate in a challenge of any orders of evacuation
This, of course, was prior to the entry of the military orders.
Thereafter some cases challenging the orders were filed. More
accurately criminal prosecutions were instituted against American cit-
izens of Japanese ancestry for not complying with the military orders.
There are three such cases and I would like to call them to your
attention so that your records may have the information.
One is the case of Gordon K. Hirabayashi; another is the case of
Minoru Yasui.
Those cases are now pending in the Supreme Court of the United
States, bearing Nos. 780 and 871 of the current term, respectively.
In those cases the American Civil Liberties Union appeared as a
friend cf tlie Court by permission of the Court and so did the Japanese-
American Citizens League.
9334 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The cases were argued and I participated in the oral argument
on May 10 of this year — May 10 and 11, and a decision of the Court
is awaited either before the Court adjourns this term or next fall.
Generally the position which we took was that orders of evacuation
directed against a group, particularly a racial group and directed
solely against a particular racial group, denied the equal protection
of the laws to the members of that group, that is guaranteed by the
fourteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
We took the additional position that such evacuation without
attem_pting to discriminate between the loyal and disloyal by some
kind of hearing, no matter how summary, was a violation of the due-
process laws of the fourteenth amendment.
I don't care to dwell upon that more particularly because the matter
is pending before the Supreme Court and we will know whether
our views as to the constitutionality of the orders are sound or not
in short order.
In a general way our position is this: We have no particular concern
with the Japanese as such as I have indicated to you.
Mr. MuNDT. Didn't you say there were three cases?
Mr. WiBiN. Yes. The last case is known as Korematsu. The full
name is Fred T. Korematsu against the United States. That is
No. 912.
That case went to the Supreme Court on a procedural question,
namely, in that case Korematsu was granted probation by a judge at
San Francisco and the Government first took the position that the
order upholding the constitutionality of the military orders, the order
by the judge, and putting Korematsu on probation was not an ap-
pealable order.
That question was certified to the Supreme Court of the United
States. I argued that case and on June 1, 1943, the Court agreed with
US that that order was appealable.
That is all that case decided.
Mr. MuNDT. Are the three Japanese whom you just mentioned
now in relocation centers?
Mr. WiRiN. No. Yasui, as T understand it, is in the county jail at
Portland, Greg. Yasui was a Portland attorney.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you tell us why he is in jail?
Mr. WiRiN. The judge refused to fix bail on an appeal. He was
convicted and sentenced, I think, to 2 years and the judge refused to
fix bail on appeal.
My information is not as of the moment; it is as of a couple of weeks
ago. He may be out on bail now, but I have no information that
he is.
Hirabayashi, my understanding is, has been released from the relo-
cation center. He is a Quaker, as I understand it, and is doing some
work for the Friends' Service Committee of the Quaker group.
Mr. MuNDT. And the third man?
Mr. WiRiN. I am not certain as to where Korematsu is. My im-
pression is that he is not in a relocation center, but I have no direct
information about that.
I have already told you that so far as I was concerned, and I think
I speak for most of the members of our committee, we have no par-
ticular concern with the Japanese prior to the evacuation because
there seemed to be no special abridgement of civil liberties of that
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9335
group as such prior to the ovacuation which, at k'ast^ came to our
attention and called for our action.
Our approach is that to treat a racial group discriminatorily and
harshly is of consequence, not because of the injustice we mete out
aganist the particular group, but because we establish a precedent
that might be used against other minority groups.
We feel the treatment accorded these Japanese because these
Japanese ancestors were born in Japan is the kind of treatment that
may be accorded the Chinese, who are of the same general stock but
are our allies, and against wdiom there was much prejudice on the
Pacific coast in the former years. It might break out against Filipinos,
as there was prejudice against them in California before the war.
Once the war is over it might suddenly aftect the Negroes; and we
are not too certain that the Jewish population may not also become a
victim or subjects of special persecution and treatment once we allow
special treatment, purely because of racial grounds, against any one
group.
In other words I want to make this as clear as I can: We are not
concerned with the Japanese, either alien or American citizens as
such, at all. We are interested in the principle of the matter and the
constitutionality of the matter as applying in a democratic community
to other minority groups.
Now, briefly, our position with respect to the return of the Japanese,
and I make this statement studiedly, and with an appreciation that the
point of view we are taking is most certainly a dissenting or minority
point of view in most California or Pacific coast communities.
Generally we feel that persons of Japanese .descent or of the Japanese
race should be treated the same as other persons are. And once again
that the matter of race or the accident of birth, particularly the acci-
dent of birth of one's ancestors, should not be an important or deter-
mining factor. We say, therefore, that the Japanese, and certainly
American citizens of Japanese ancestry, should be allowed to return
to the Pacific coast and allow^ed to return immediately, with the
following limitations:
That first there should be a sifting or determination between the
loyal and disloyal. We feel that there are adequate facilities in the
Department of eTustice and particularly in the F. B. I. for a determina-
tion as to loyalty or disloyalty.
The Japanese loyalty or disloyalty, and I am speaking of Japanese
American citizens, can be determined pretty much on the same stand-
ards as is determined the loyalty of any other racial stock. On the
whole the F. B. I. had done that prior to the military evacuation
orders.
We do not take the position, however, that the Japanese, those of
Japanese descent, should necessarily be allowed, as it were, full
freedom, in that they should be allowed to enter mimition plants or
ah'plane factories or even immediately upon the beaches of the Pacific
coast. We agree that there are many places on the Pacific coast, as
many places as elsewhere in the United States, which should be open
to no lay person.
Mr. MuxDT. W ould you permit the Japanese to work in the defense
plants where you would permit any other American citizen or would
you discriminate between them?
9336 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. WiRiN. I will express my o"vvti opinion now since my committee
has not given that question any consideration. Perhaps it should be
I express my own views and the members of the committee if they
differ with me may express their views.
Mr, MuNDT. Y^ e assume they assent unless they express themselves
otherwise.
Mr. WiRiN. We think Japanese whose loyalty has been proved
should be allowed to work in any defense plant the same as any other
person.
Mr. MuNDT. And on the beaches the same thing would apply?
Mr. "WiRiN. On the beaches we think probably no one should be
allowed, or there might be a permit system invoked whereby only those
having a military permit should be allowed. We hope that the permit
system will, not be used as a means of discrimination because of race.
Mr. MuNDT. You would not discriminate because of race among
any civilians once they had been released?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes; and certainly once a person's loyalty has been,
as it were, passed upon and approved; and of course, the Army takes
that view in two respects:
In the first place there are, as I understand it, Japanese interpreters
who are American citizens of Japanese ancestry, who are recognized
to be loyal and who not only are in the armed forces but because their
loyalty is proven, given special privileges. And, secondly, if I may
complete my statement, in setting up opportunities for American
citizens of Japanese ancestry to join the armed forces, in setting up
the Japanese American combat unit, the Army recognized that it
can determine the loyalty, of Japanese — that it can determine the loyal
from the disloyal and invited the loyal to join the armed forces.
And in that connection I want to call your attention to a statement
made by the War Department on February 1, 1943, in connection
with the making of opportunities available to Japanese for service in
the armed forces, and I quote:
Americans of Japanese blood are wanted to fight for the United States like any
other citizens.
Continuing the quote:
They are wanted because the Government and the Army are convinced of their
loyalty.
So, apparently, the Army after a good deal of consideration on the
subject, can tell the loyal from the disloyal and want the Japanese
to serve in the armed forces.
I may have occasion to refer to that— — •
Mr. CosTELLO. Returning to the matter of beaches: Do I under-
stand you to feel no civilian should be allowed to go upon the beaches
at all?
Mr. WiRiN. I feel that if the military determine as a matter of
military necessity that civilians should not be allowed on the beaches,
it should apply to all civilians irrespective of race.
Mr. CosTELLO. That has not been done here on the Pacific coast,
has it? Civilians are allowed practically free use of the beaches at
the present time.
Mr. WiRiN. I don't know about that but I think there are some
areas, for instance. Terminal Island, that have been taken over by
the Govermnent.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9337
jSIr. CosTELLO. Of course that particular part of Terminal Island
is now a part of the Roosevelt base and also a flying field, so there is
no beach available to the public anyniore. It is part of the military
installation. But as I understand it, there have been no restrictions
to civilians along the beaches at the present time unless it be after
sundown. During the dajT-time there is no restrictions for military
reasons against civilians using the beaches.
Is it yom- thought no Japanese should be allowed on the beaches
if tlK\v are allowed to return to the Pacific coast?
Mr. WiRiN. My thought is a twofold one: It is that Japanese
whose loyalty is proven should not be discriminated against because
they are Japanese, but I take less broad position in that by saying if
Japanese were retm-ned here, I would not allow them to be actually
on the beaches.
That kind of deprivation of civil rights w^ould be nominal or incon-
sequential as compared to the evacuation of a group from a very
large portion of the United States, or to continue to exclude them.
I don't, of course, necessarily take an absolutism position on that.
Mr. MuNDT. \Vliy would you advocate such a discrimination against
the Japanese?
Mr. WiRiN. I wouldn't, but I would look upon that discrimination
as a better kind of treatment than we have accorded the Japanese up
to now.
Mr. CosTELLO. You feel it would be proper to prohibit Japanese the
use of the beaches if they were allowed to return to the Pacific coast,
and that that restriction might be a proper restriction for the military
to make?
Mr. WiRiN. I would rather leave my owti statement stand by say-
ing I woidd consider it an miproper treatment of the Japanese but not
anywhere 7iear as improper as the present treatment.
Mr. CosTELLO. Taking the statement as you put it now, it would
seem to me what has happened then, in evacuating the Japanese from
California there has been merely an enlargement of the area. In
other words where you are going to consider a stretch of beach, say
50 feet wide to the high-water mark, or 300 feet or a 3-mile stretch, it
seems to me the principle involved would be identical. If you elimi-
nated them from the 50-foot stretch adjoining the water or a 100-foot
stretch adjoining the water and you thought that were proper, and
then why would an expansion of the area to a larger extent, still using
the high-water mark as the guiding line, be proper? It would seem
to me it would be identical. It would be only an eidargement of
the area.
Mr. WiRiN. Sometimes a difference in degree becomes a difference
in substance. Nominal violations of civil rights may have to be
overlooked in a war but substantial violations, perhaps, should not be.
The extension of the position that you have stated, which I assume
you stated as you are thinking it out, would mean if theentu-e United
States were deemed by certain groups as sufficiently eminent to attack
that Japanese should be excluded from the entire United States
because of race, but there is a limitation beyond which you caimot go.
It may very well be that in terms of fighting a war there may be some
that may appear to be some justification for a minor abridgment of
civil rights when there wouldn't be a justification for a more compre-
hensive one. I agree with you on the principle which I adhere to —
9338 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
there should be no discrimination against the Japanese because of
race anywhere.
Mr. CosTELLO. The evacuation order was hmited to a definite area
on the Pacific coast and it did not apply to Japanese generally in the
United States.
In other words, throughout the vast majority of the United States
wherever Japanese were, they were not removed from their homes,
even on the eastern coast, and it happens that the majority of the
Japanese were, of course, located on the Pacific coast. But there w^ere
still some 25,000 scattered throughout the country who were not
disturbed, so at least to that extent the evacuation order complies
with the principle laid down in that it does not cover the entire coun-
try. It was not a complete movement against the Japanese minority
as such but limited purely to the area that was determined as critical
and from which the Japanese were removed.
Mr. WiRiN. May I give you my reaction to that statement? We
agree that the evacuation orders excluding Japanese from the Pacific
coast are not as harmful to democratic principles as if the Japanese
had been excluded from the entire United States. We concede that.
On the other hand w^e say the area which they excluded the Jap-
anese from, representing the entire Pacific coast, is altogether too
broad an area; but we wouldn't be so much concerned if we didn't
have the feeling which we presented to the Supreme Court, that the
military orders of evacuation v/ere not based upon military necessity
but were based upon and were the result of the activities of groups
along the Pacific coast — some of them economic groups — some of
these groups not immediately economic, who exploited prejudices of
the community and engendered hysteria in the community against
persons because of the color of their skins, and whose parents hap-
pened to have been born in Japan.
So, it is ovu" considered view and it is the same view w^e presented
to the Supreme Court, the decision to evacuate was not based on
military necessity but was based on prejudice.
Mr. CosTELLO. You feel the orders which General DeWitt issued
were not a determination — were not based upon a determination
made by the military and General DeWitt personally for strategic
reasons but were the result from pressure of other groups outside the
military?
Mr. WiRiN. We say that very definitely. In the 150 or more page
brief filed by the Japanese Citizens League in these cases we tried to
cite the facts. The statement made by General DeWitt before a
subcommittee of the Congress investigating housing in San Francisco
to the eft'ect:
"A Jap is a Jap" — doesn't make any difference whether he is a
citizen or not, seems to us to, of itself, constitute rather weighty
evidence that General DeWitt became the victim of, or at least
adhered to just sheer race prejudice which we feel has been a dominat-
ing factor on the coast.
Mr. CosTELLO. But that does not indicate he yielded to the pres-
sure of outside groups in coming to his determination.
Mr. WiRiN. Well, we feel that that kind of a statement is a state-
ment which expresses an attitude of racial prejudice.
Mr. CosTELLO. The thing I am trying to get at is whether any
other group outside of the military, was able to bring sufficient in-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 9339
fluonco to bear on the military authoritios here to caiiso them to issue
an order which the niiUtary felt was not necessary. That is the im-
plication I get from the statement you have made and that is what I
was wondering — if you had any indication of that.
Now, tlu^ fact that General DeAYitt seems to have determinc^d that
a Jap is a eJap and beting such could not be trusted, does not indicate
any outside pressure on hiin, but that it may be a determination of
his as to the racial backgi-ound and history of the Japanese people as
such, which might l)e racial pr(>ju(lice or whatever you want to call it,
but the thing I am interested in is the pressure by civilian groups
upon the military to bring about this determination.
Mr. "WiRiN. May I say in that connection that I shall be glad to
file with your committee the briefs filed in the Supreme Court of the
United States, in which I undertook in great detail to demonstrate
the point I am discussing.
There were hearings by the Tolan committee, as I have indicated,
and there was evidence before that committee of the functioning of
.these anti-Japanese groups, and we feel that we are able to demonstrate
by the facts in the record before the Tolan committee and other facts
in the official record, that the dominant factor in determining evacua-
tion was not one of military necessity generally arrived at by the
military, but was the result of these pressure groups. And let me
supplement that by this:
There were on the Pacific coast a Japanese population of approxi-
mately 1 percent of the entire population prior to the evacuation. In
the Hawaiian Islands the Japanese consist of approximately one-third
of the population. The entire Japanese population was evacuated
from the Pacific coast on the ground of claimed military danger.
I suppose it is generally conceded that the Hawaiian Islands have
been — certainly were at one time, in more grave military danger
than the Pacific coast, but no order of evacuation of persons of
Japanese ancestry was ever made in the Hawaiian Islands, where
the population is greater and the danger is greater; and the reason for
it, it seems to me, is reflected by the position taken by the then
commanding general, General Emmons, of the Hawaiian Islands, who
was not a victim, we believe, of race prejudice against the Japanese
and who, when ,the opportunity for service by Japanese in the armed
forces was made, made this statement as commanding general of the
Hawaiian Islands:
■ All people of the Hawaiian Islands have contributed generously to our war
efiFort. Among these have been Americans of Japanese descent.
That is where Pearl Harbor took place, where the attack took
place.
He went on to talk about the Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands
Mr. Steedman. Did he discuss the Japanese in the Philippine
Islands?
Mr. WiRiN. He did not discuss that.
Mr. Steed.man. The.fe has never been an invasion of the Hawaiian
Islands, has there?
Mr. \A'iRiN. The Government called it an invasion; the President
of the United States on December 8:
We have been invaded.
9340 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
He said:
We had been attacked.
Mr. Steedman. But there was no invasion by land?
Mr. WiRiN. No.
Mr. Steedman. Do you have information regarding Japanese
subversive activities and fifth-column activities in the Philippine
Islands?
Mr. CosTELLO. At the time of the invasion of the Philippine
Islands by the Japanese?
Mr. WiRiN. I do not have that information. All I am doing is
drawing a contrast, if I may, between the treatment of a racial group
at a place where I think the danger is greater than it was here, and
General Emmons, who certainly was in a position to know first the
danger and, second, the subversive actiAdties of any of the Japanese
population, said of the Japanese:
They have behaved themselves admirably under the most trying conditions
and have bought grea.t quantities of War bonds, and by the labor of their hands
have added to the common defense.
Now, General Emmons, who I understand is on the Pacific coast,
didn't have the race prejudices which we feel General DeWitt has
and, secondly, there were not in the Hawaiian Islands powerful and
militant pressure groups as there were on the Pacific coast at the time
of the evacuation ; and the demands of the pressure groups not having
been made in Hawaii, there was no evacuation.
Mr. CosTELLO. I might inject one statement there: Personally I
think the situation in the Hawaiian Islands was and is considerably
different from the position of the Pacific coast area, and the fact that
the Japanese do constitute one-third of the population over there
presents a very difficult problem to the military and for that reason
a difference in the percentage of population might be of itself sufficient
justification for not attempting to remove the population, because it
would mean disseminating the people throughout the islands, if it
were possible to actually physically remove them. So, conditions in
Hawaii are considerably different than what we find on the Pacific
coast and for that reason a failure on the part of the military com-
mander in Hawaii to remove the Japanese might not be due to any
lack of racial prejudice but because of dift'erent military considerations
confronting the military commander which called, therefore, for dif-
ferent strategy in that area than here.
I have had the pleasure of knowing General DeWitt and I am quite
well acquainted with him. ' That is the reason I made this issue with
you because I never thought General DeWitt was subject to pressure
from any outside group. As a matter of fact I believe he has been
pretty much of a two-fisted military leader and when he has said,
"No" I found that instead of yielding to pressure that on the con-
trary he resisted it very forcibly and very strongly. And he has ad-
hered to any orders that he has given here on the Pacific coast most
rigidly, and I think the best indication of that would be the matter of
horse racing, on which he alm.ost immediately put a ban in California.
I think that you will admit that if any group could bring pressure to
bear upon General DeWitt certainly an organization such as those
connected with the horse-racing industry in the vState — chambers of
commerce, hotel men and people of that sort, who are «losely inter-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9341
estod in the racing; seasons, were unable to exert sufficient pressure to
cause him to change his order one iota and for the first year of the w ar
there was simply no horse racing, and at the present time only one
track is permitted to operate.
So, I think that indicates the vigor with which General DeWitt
reaches a decision and adheres to it, and I don't think he is subject
to outside pressure.
My judgment would be that his determination for the evacuation
of the Japanese for military reasons was based entirely on military
strategy as he saw it and not at all upon any racial prejudice or out-
side influence.
.Mr. WiRiN. May I state I agree substantially with your estimate
of General De^Titt. I don't thmk he is the kind of man when direct
pressure is brought upon him directly yields to it. My point is that
racial prejudice is a subtle and insidious psychological factor which
dominates a man's mind without Jie necessarily knowing it is being
dominated.
JS'one of us admit race prejudice. No matter how much our words
speak it. It seems to me the statement General Emmons made in the
islands, and the statement made by General DeWitt discloses a dif-
ferent state of mind, and all I am saying is that General DeWitt
adopted a state of mind which was current here in California, and
which became current due to the hysteria which was engendered here,
ver\" largely as a result of false reports —reports of so-called sabotage
activities by Japanese on the occasion of Pearl Harbor, reports which
have been denied by the Secretary of War, by the chief of police of
Honolulu, and which are set forth fully in the Tolan report.
Mr. Stebdman. Mr. Wirin. no one has denied tiie subversive
activities of the Japanese in Burma and in the ^Nlalay Peninsula.
Mr. Wirin. I must confess to you I don't know much of any-
thing about subversive activities in such distant quarters, but I have
tried to make myself familiar with allegedly subversive activities in
the United States, and particularly in the Hawaiian Islands, and I
am advised, and I speak with a good deal of personal confidence, first,
that no act of sabotage was committed either on the Pacific coast or
in the Hawaiian Islands, either before, during, or after Pearl Harbor,
at any time by any American citizens of Japanese ancestry.
Two — well, that is sufficient it seems to me.
Now. what happened in Burma, it seems to me, is a problem a little
bit remote from the treatment of American citizens of Japanese
ancestiy in the United States.
Mr. Steedman. Have j^ou any knowledge of subversive activities
by Japanese in the Philippine Islands?
Mr. V\"iRiN. What ai)out them?
Mr. Steedman. What about the subversive activities of the Jap-
anese in the Philippines after the Japanese Army landed on those
islands?
Mr. Wirin. All I know is that so far as the Hawaiian Islands and
the Pacific coast — and that is what we are talking about — is there
isn't any evidence of any single act of sabotage by any American
citizen of Japanese ancestry.
Mr. CosTELLo. In following that up, there is no evidence of
sabotage by the Japanese in the Philippines prior to the actual attack
and invasion of the Philippines either, but there are definite indications
G2(y26 — 4.3 — vol. 15 33
9342 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
that many Japanese in the Philippines at the time of the invasion did
take a hand in aiding the enemy in their invasion activities.
Now, as regards the Hawaiian Ishxnds: While General Emmons in
commenting on the fact that many Japanese were buying War bonds
and things of that sort, that is very fine. This committee feels that
miquestionably there are many loyal Japanese. I don't think anyone
will dispute that, but the fact remains that prior to Pearl Harbor
large amounts of money were being sent by the Japanese directly back
to Japan. They were making investments over there immediately
before Pearl Harbor. Of course I do not impugn the motives at all of
those who are investing in War bonds. Unquestionably the Japanese
buying War bonds in the Hawaiian Islands are doing it with the idea of
furthering America's war effort, but prior to Pearl Harbor there
were very definite loyal Japanese among the Japanese in Hawaii who
were aiding Japan and the Japanese Government to the utmost of
their ability.
Had an invasion by land troops been attempted in the Hawaiian
Islands undoubtedly those agents of the Japanese Government would
have joined in aiding those forces. And similarly unquestionably on
the Pacific coast had the Japanese attempted an invasion here, those
disloyal Japanese, who were among the Japanese people residing here,
would have cooperated with the invading forces.
Now, the big problem that we feel and most people seem to feel, is
definitely trying to determine between the loyal and disloyal Japanese.
I believe you made a statement earlier in your testimony that the
F. B. I. had pretty well determined the loyalty of the Japanese prior
to the evacuation.
Do you believe that that is a correct statenient?
Mr. WiRiN. We feel that the F. B. I. and the Department of Justice
had substantial evidence as to the loyalty and disloyalty of most of the
Japanese.
Mr. CoSTELLO. You think their records were such as to bo able to
indicate which of the Japanese could be trusted as loyal and which
could not? ,
Mr. WiRiN. 1 think the records were certainly adequate as a starter
and further investigation could have been conducted.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you think had they then attempted to segregate
the disloyal Japanese and place tliem in internment camps that they
would have been successful m keepnig those disloyal Japanese removed
from the Pacific coast and kept away from areas in which they might
be able to commit acts of sabotage?
Mr. W^iRiN. I think so; and may I say this, by way of explanation to
my answer: I think the F. B. I. was sufficiently in control of the nature
of subversive activities of the Japanese on the Pacific coast as it is, I
think concedely, in control of the subversive activities of persons of
German descent on the eastern coast.
No one has suggested that all aliens should be interned or all persons
of German descent in the United States should be interned in spite of
the fact there was evidence of a definite plot of sabotage discovered
and exposed, as far as Germans are concerned.
W^e feel the reason why the Japanese were treated this way is because
they were a small group against whom racial prejudices existed in this
community.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9343
IMr. CosTELLO. I do think there is a very definite difference between
the ability of Caucasians to understand the thinking and activities of
oriental peoi)le, particularly tlic Jnpaneso, and their abiUty to under-
stand the tlunking and activities of Germans or Italians.
I think it is very diflicidt for us to understand what the Japanese
are really thinkuig about when they are speaking to us, but I think it
is a little easier to un(U'rstand the emotions and feelings of Germans,
Italians, and other Caucasian people. But the Japanese understand
what their fellow-Japanese are tlnnking when speaking to them, just
as I might pretty well understand what you are thinking, or have in the
back of your mind, although you may not utter it in words.
Don't you thmk that the justification of the placing of Jews in
Germany, by the Hitler regime, in concentration camps was pretty
much that the Germans did not understand the Jewish mind and
therefore they thought the best thing to do was to get them out of
the way?
Air. WiRiN. No; I don't think so, because your so-called Semitic
mind — ^I think there is a very decided difference, because Jewish people
are definitely German people. In other words, they have lived among
the Germans for many years and I don't think there is a distinct
cleavage between a Jew who is of German origin and a Christian who
Ts of German origin. I think they are German people. Their
characteristics are tliose of German people, although they have racial
characteristics.
Mr. CosTELLO. Let me go back to the point of the mternment
camps because I would like to ask you whether the American Ci^dl
Liberties Union or any person at their behest, or members of the
organization, have made any efforts to release Japanese from the
internment camps. I am not speaking now of relocation centers, but
definite alien internment camps.
Mr. "\\ IRIX. I know^ of no such efforts, nor have we made any effort
to release any particular person from any relocation center.
"\A'e have taken the general view that as quickly as possible those
who are loyal should be released from the relocation centers and should
find their places in American communities so they may be able to do
constructive work in comiection with the war effort.
Mr. CosTELLO. Following up my previous question in that regard,
are you aware of the fact that at least 195 alien Japanese who had
been interiu'd at the direction of the F. B. I., have been released from
internment camps and have been sent back to the Poston relocation
center in Arizona?
Mr. WiRiN. 1 am not aware of that. Is there any evidence that
any of them committed acts of sabotage while free?
Air. CosTELLO. I am not on the question of sabotage, but I am
pointing out that the F. B. I. in an effort to determine the loyalty
or disloyalty of Japanese seized a hirge number of them on the Pacific
coast whom they believed to be disloyal. Those Japanese were then
placed in internment camps and subsequently at least 195 so interned
Japanese, as I understand it. by some civilian board holding hearings
in the camp, with which the F. B. I. had no connection, were released
from the internment camps and at least 195 of them were returned
to Poston.
9344 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The conclusion I would like to draw from that is, that even though
the F. B. I. have definite records and actually did segregate the
disloyal Japanese from the loyal and place them in internment camps,
you still have no assurance that they will remain there if civil processes
allow these alleged disloyal Japanese to be returned to the relocation
centers.
My point is if the Japanese were left on the Pacific coast they would
have been allowed to return to the Pacific coast under those conditions,
so that even those whom the F. B. I. might have determined to be
disloyal prior to evacuation, had evacuation not taken place, they
undoubtedly would have been allowed to return to the Pacific coast.
Mr. WiRiN. May I state generally our position was complete
confidence in the F. B. I. and we generally accepted their word as to
whether a Jap was loyal or disloyal.
Mr. CosTELLO. We will take a 5-minute recess at this time.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order, and Mr. Wirin,
will you proceed with your statement?
Mr. WiRiN. Mr. Chairman, I have been trying to emphasize the
point that we of the Civil Liberties Union are concerned about the
treatment of the Japanese because we believe the treatment was due
to their race rather than military necessity, and that is where many
members of the community differ with us or don't understand why we
are so concerned.
If we felt that the question of racial discrimination did not enter into
the orders of evacuation, many of us would be much less concerned
than we are.
Here is what I have in mind. I call to your attention the testimony
of Mr. Eric Bellquist, professor of the department of political science
of the University of California.
He testified about the state of public opinion on the coast before
the Tolan committee and I refer particularly to the Tolan committee
fourth interim report at page 149, and Dr. Bellquist is a responsible,
careful student of group psychology.
He said:
Altogether, as the committee has witnessed, the State of California, as well as
Oregon and Washington, has been giving a demonstration of lack of balance and
outright intolerance which will blacken its records for many years to come. If
our puVilic authorities have thus succumbed to hysteria, o.ne can well understand,
if only deplore, the housewives who dismiss Japanese gardeners and servants, and
farmers who discharge help because of citizenship or extraction. On the whole
the public has not shown so much hate or spite, except it has been incited to do
so. But pressure groups and short-sighted politicians facing an election year
are out for blood and wholesale internment. Jingoes are endeavoring under the
cover of wartime flag-waving patriotism, to do what they always wanted to do in
peacetime — get rid of the Japanese.
I just cite that for the benefit of the committee;
The Tolan committee report has considerable and substantial
evidence to show how the pressure groups were trying to get rid of
Japanese competition, and expecially the vegetable growing associa-
tions. They admit they had a selfish interest in wanting to get the
Japanese out of here.
Now, we, as I say, are distressed that the factor of race has been
dominant or any factor at all in the determination as to what should
be done to a group of persons.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9345
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you believe the same thing would be true
regartUng labor organizations? In other words you believe they are
urging the evacuation of the Japanese and they are being kept off of
the Pacific coast for the duration, would emanate from the same
basis as you indicate the agricultural associations?
Mr. WiRiN. I think it might and as I understand it there have
been some isolated labor groups that have taken that position, but
I think the record should disclose that before the Tolan committee
there appeared Mr. Louis Goldblatt, the secretary of the California
State Congress of Industrial Organizations, and he made a statement
equivalent to the position taken b}^ Dr. Bellquist that it was jingo
groups and economic pressure groups that were responsible for the
sentiment existing upon evacuation.
Mr. CosTELLO. As far as labor is concerned, it would not be a
question of competition with Japanese labor in labor organizations
because, generally, the Japanese were not engaged in industrial trade
activities?
Mr. WiRiN. That is true. If there was opposition it would come
from the agricultural groups and I do know the agricultural workers
in the C. I. O. is a liberal and not a race hating group.
Now, let me go on, if I may, and attempt to give you my reaction
to the discussion the chairman and I have been having.
If it is conceded that a large number of Japanese are loyal, and I am
talking primarily about American citizens of Japanese ancestry — I
notice the Solicitor General's argument in the Supreme Court conceded
that a majority of the American citizens of Japanese ancestry are
loyal, and that lends substance to the position that we take, that the
loyal and the innocent should not be penalized because some are
disloyal, and some effort should have been made in connection with the
evacuation to segregate the disloyal from the loyal, and certainly some
effort should be made novr in connection with releasing them to dis-
tinguish the loyal from the disloyal and the innocent from the guilty
so the innocent may not suffer.
As we understand it one of the cardinal principles of the democratic
way of life is that we try to protect the innocent and we don't punish
the innocent simply because they come from the same racial stock or
have the same general ancestral stock that some guilty may have.
Mr. CosTELLO. You don't look upon this as a penal confmement,
do you, removal of the Japanese?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes, we do. We say a rose smells the same no matter
what you call it, and' if you put persons into camps and you keep
them there that is imprisonment.
Mr. CosTELLO. Then the same thing is true when we take spldiers
and put them in camps. Do you call that imprisonment?
Mr. WiRiN. It is a form of imprisonment but it is not a form of
imprisonment based on race or discrimination in any way.
Mr. CosTEi.LO. I don't think you would be willing to definitely
state that our soldiers are imprisoned, would you?
Mr. WiRiN. We say soldiers' liberties have been taken from them.
Mr. CosTELLO. They are curtailed but they are not imprisoned.
There is nothing penal about their being in the military service and
likemse here there is nothing penal about the Japanese having been
evacuated and placed in relocation -centers.
9346 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIEiS
I don't think it is proper to put it on the same basis as a jail or
internment camp. It definitely is neither one of them. It is purely
a relocation center. In other words a case of having to remove them
from their former homes to new homes and it is not in the same cate-
gory as punishment for a crime committed. I don't think the similar-
ity exists there.
Mr. WiRiN. You may be technically right about that. I under-
stand there are some persons in this community of ours who want to
make relocation centers internment camps and object to a release of a
substantial number. Those persons certainly would like to see these
camps, whether you call them concentration camps or relocation cen-
ters, really prisons; but we also take this definite view that of all the
democratic nations in the world, ours is the only one that has removed
from a large portion of the Nation persons solely because of their race
or ancestry; and ours is the only one that has — I don't like the word
"internment" but has detained them for a period.
Mr. CosTELLO. May I ask you if Mexico is a democratic country,
and has not Mexico removed the Japanese from Lower California?
Mr. WiRiN. I think I should say that ours was the first democratic
country. We started it and then Mexico followed.
Mr. CosTELLO. And may I ask you further, what do you think of
Canada? Is Canada a democratic country?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. And did not Canada remove the Japanese from the
Pacific coast area of Canada and did not Canada do that prior to our
evacuation in this country?
Mr. WiRiN. No; Canada did it after our evacuation in this coun-
try— some time afterwards, and Canada has never interned or never
detained a single Japanese. The Canadians excluded them from cer-
tain areas but did not detain them either by relocation centers or
any other centers,
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Steedman, I wish you would make some effort
to find out what date Canada evacuated her Japanese people from the
Pacific coast so it will be definitely clear in the record.
Mr. WiRiN. I hope that is done. I speak with some personal con-
fidence that the evacuation in Canada and Mexico was subsequent to
ours.
Mr. Steedman. There is testimony in the record that Canada
evacuated her Japanese prior to our doing so.
Mr. WiRiN. In any event I wonder if the testimony before your
committee does not disclose that the evacuation of British citizens or
Japanese from the Pacific coast, so far as Canada was concerned, was
not accompanied with any detention but certain areas were declared
taboo and the Japanese were allowed to go in a large portion of Canada
without detention.
Mr. CosTELLO. We did not inquire into that phase either in refer-
ence to Canada or Mexico.
Mr. WiRiN. It might be interesting for I do make the statement
categorically that ours is the only democratic nation that has ever
detained them,
Mr. CosTELLO. I might state that here such a large body of Japanese
were being moved it was incumbent on the Goverimient to provide
transportation, food, and clothing for the Japanese and the proper way
to handle them was to locate them in centers where they could be
easily provided for.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9347
Mr. WiRiN. I think the Govornmont did well in affording some
protection to the Japanese, and some financial assistance, but some of
us do not ([uite see why the Japanese have to be moved to Arkansas
and detained there without permission to leave — many, many miles
distant from the Pacific coast.
Mr. MuNDT. Didn't Russia evacuate a large number of people?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes, Russia
Mr. MuNDi. And kept them in camps?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes. I don't think they kept any in camps. My
impression is that large areas were evacuated, consisting of persons of
German descent. I said, "Democratic nations."
Mr. MuNDT. You don't consider communism a democratic form
of government?
^Ir. WiRiN. No; I don't think it is a democratic form of govern-
ment.
I was discussing, however, our view as to the return of the Japanese.
As I said at the outset the evacuation orders have been concluded
long ago. We favor, therefore, the return of the Japanese to the coast
now but with this additional suggestion or qualification:
That some group, perhaps this group, should explore into the acti^d-
ties of organizations in California and on the coast, the names of which
we will be glad to furnish to this committee, which organizations we
claim deliberately fanned the race prejudice which Dr. Bellquist testi-
fied about before the Tolan committee, and particularly to ascertain
and to make public and to expose to the world which of these organi-
zations have any direct economic interest in continuing to have the
Japanese excluded from this area.
We think perhaps, it would be conceded, assuming that the original
exclusion orders were based on military necessity, that the present
military danger is not quite as great as it was at the time of the
original orders of exclusion.
Mr. CosTELLO. May I inquire whether the American Legion would
be one of those organizations?
Mr. WiRiN.- We think the activities of the American Legion should
be explored into. We are not saying the activities of the American
Legion were dominated by economic interests, but there are organiza-
tions— the Salinas Vegetable Growers as an example, and other eco-
nomic groups who don't want any competition from the Japanese,
Mr. CosTELLO. The reason I asked about the American Legion was,
we had some witnesses from there who testified regarding the return
of the Japanese and that is why I inquired of you.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you a member of the Legion?
Mr. WiRiN. I am not a member of the Ameiican Legion.
Mr. Steedmax. There is a question I would like to ask you at this
point:
Did the American Civil Liberties Union make any study of the
Japanese subversive organizations prior to Pearl Harbor?
Mr. WiRiN. I would say we have not.
Mr. Steedman. Have you personally made any investigation of the
Japanese subversive organizations?
Mr. WiRiN. We have not made such investigation but we think we
are in a general way familiar with the activities of the Japanese groups.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the American Legion
has made such investigation?
9348 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. "VViRiN. I believe the American Legion has.
Mr. Steedman. And they woukl be speaking from some facts when
making statements before this committee?
Mr. WiRiN. Oh, I beUeve so. I think the American Legion, how-
ever, has been known to be wrong the same as other organizations have
been known to be wrong and I think that there are members in the
American Legion who permit their sense of patriotism to bhnd their
sense of Americanism, and who allow themselves to be dominated by
race prejudice; but I would rather not engage in a discussion about the
American Legion. I am not a member of it and I do not care to dis-
cuss it.
Then if the Japanese are to be returned as we believe they have a
right to be, under the Bill of Rights, at least they have a right not to be
discriminated against because of race, then we say certain protection
should be taken and that is groups Vvho have shown race prejudice
should be exposed and more particularly we feel that the Government
and perhaps this committee, should publicly condemn race prejudice —
race prejudice against the Japanese race or prejudice against any group.
And there should be assurances from the Government that when
American citizens return to the coast, whether he is of Japanese descent
or any other descent, that the full force of the law is on his side so long
as he is innocent, and will protect him and will protect him particularly
against such groups, whether they are law enforcement officers or
Legionnaires or anyone else, who threaten or intimate that they will
take the law into their own hands and be responsible for mob violence
because they don't like certain persons, even though they are innocent
because of the color of their skin or where their ancestors were born.
We feel it is a definite duty and responsibility in a democratic
nation at war that the Government speak out against vigilante-ism
and lawlessness rather than deprive a minority group of its rights
because there may be lawlessness; and we feel that no Government
agency has yet taken that point of view and performed that duty.
Mr. CosTELLO. You realize, Mr. Wirin, that is exactly the situation
that is taking place in these relocation centers where some of the
loyal Japanese are attempting to express and to voice their loyalty
to this country. Those who have done that have been threatened
and in fact in some cases beaten up by disloyal Japanese, and it has
been the loyal Japanese who have been removed from the centers
and placed in a special camp for their protection rather than taking
the disloyal Japanese who are doing the injustice, and depriving
them of their freedom in the centers.
Mr. Wirin. I agree with you, that the innocent should be given
protective custody. That is what is done with the Jews in Germany,
but the guilty should be prosecuted.
Now, I want to change my role with your permission and speak to
you as counsel for the Japanese American Citizens League, because
the question that you asked leads me to that subject.
With reference to persons who have been beaten up and assaulted
in the camps they were, as I understand, for the most part active
members of the Japanese American Citizens League. And one of
the most prominent was Saburo Kido at Poston.
Mr. CosTELLO. Does that conclude your statement for the American
Civil Liberties Union?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9349
Mr. Wirin. It does. I understand that Dr. Taft is not in strict
accordance with the statement I made about the beaches being
restricted to Japanese. 1 wouUl hive to liear liis view.
Mr. CoSTELLO. In other words the American Civil Liberties Union
does not (indorse entirely your statement in that regard?
Mr. MuNDT. I tliink we should hear Dr. Taft hrst before you go
into your other role; and 1 think also any of the other associates of
Mr. "\\ irin who are here who may disagree with his statements be given
an opportunity at this point 19 state their disagreement, if they have
any.
Mr. CosTELLO. Dr. Taft, do you wish to make a statement?
Mr. Taft. A very brief one.
TESTIMONY OF CLINTON J. TAFT, DIRECTOR, AMERICAN CIVIL
LIBERTIES UNION, SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BRANCH
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Air. Steedman. You are president of the southern California
branch of the American Civil Liberties Union?
^ Mr. Taft. I am director.
' Mr. Steedman. You heard the testimony of Mr. Wirin this morn-
ing. Do you desire to comment on his testimony?
Mr. Taft. I w^ould like to comment on one thing.
Mr. MuNDT. What do you mean by "director"? Are you the
director or the man in charge?
Mr. Taft. I am the man in charge — -the director of the work here.
Mr. Mundt. The same as being president of some other organiza-
tion?
Mr. Taft. Yes, sir; I wanted to take exception to the one statement
Mr. Wirin made about allowing Japanese to appear on our beaches if
they were returned to California.
I don't recall that the Civil Liberties Union has taken any definite
position on this point, but I think I reflect the opinion of our people
w^hen I say that we don't concede the point to the extent that Mr.
Wirin seemed to in his statement to you.
I think as the chairman said in an oft" the record discussion here, that
is a matter of prmciple and that in a way compromises the whole
situation if you put it on a racial basis and say that a Japanese should
not be allowed on the coast.
I base this statement on our general confidence in the character of
the Japanese, speaking generally so far as our observations and con-
tacts have been with these people, and I would call your attention
to the record they have made since they have lived here in California;
Generally speaking, I thinlc it is unquestioned — ^I would put it
forth as something that has not been successfully challenged so far
as my knowledge goes, that the Japanese of this area previous to
their evacuation were regarded as a thrifty, fine, decent lot of people.
They committed very few crimes. Their record in our courts was
almost negligible. The matter of juvenile delinquency among them
was very very inconseciuential.
They were a hard-working, trustworthy people. Many of them
were Christians and members of our churches.
I happen to be a congregational minister by training and I know
of some of these people first-hand, and I think I can say without
9350 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
contradiction that our confidence in these Japanese people, who
belong to the Christian churches of this community, was as unqualified
as our confidence in Germans or Italians or any other particular
racial strain.
We have found them through the years — I have lived in California
22 years and this is my twenty- third year here, we have found them
to be a hard-working people, people who had gone on our ranches and
developed them highly; they produced most of our vegetables.
They had settled in a section of our citjf here known as Little Tokyo
and were carrying on theh enterprises with the very greatest credit
to themselves.
Mr. CosTELLO. Dr. Taft, might I interrupt? Isn't it a fact that
that the lack of juvenile delinquency among the Japanese people
may largely be attributed to the fact that the father of the family
has almost dictatorial power in the homes of the Japanese?
Mr. Taft. It is probably due somewhat to that. They are brought
up very very strictly, as I understand it.
Mr. CosTELLO. And isn't that a part of the Japanese culture and
background, that the father is the dominating figure in the family?
Mr. Taft. Yes; I understand that is true.
Mr. CosTELLO. So likewise while it is true that the criminal record
of the Japanese people in our midst has been very small, isn't it a
fact that it has been shown that quite a few Japanese who were com-
pletely trusted and relied on here in our midst, prior to Pearl Harbor,
have definitely been shown to have been agents of the Japanese
Government and were working in behalf of the Japanese Empire?
Mr. Taft. I think some of them have been but they have been
weeded out pretty generally by the F. B. I. before the evacuation
took place.
Mr. CosTELLO. But the point I want to make is that some of those
who had been in the most trusted and most relied upon positions, and
who supposedly represented the finest type of Japanese citizens in
our midst, turned out very definitely to be agents of the Japanese
Empire?
Mr. Taft. I don't know of any that were taken by the F. B. I.
and put into concentration camps — I don't know as to that — I
couldn't speak on that point.
Mr. CosTELLO. I think there has been sufficient testimony here to
indicate that some of the most highly respected Japanese were those
who should have been less trusted.
Mr. Taft. It is remarkable to me, however, that among the many
tales that were current back at the time of Pearl Harbor, and sub-
sequently, of treachery and sabotage, when they were sifted and
chased down they wouldn't hold water. They didn't prove up.
And the testimony referred to b}^ Mr. Wirin of many people like
the chief of police of Honolulu and the territorial representative of
that area — their testimony was very positive as to their loyalt,y and
their refusal to commit actual sabotage.
If you go up and down this coast, so far as we can discover, there
have been no genuine acts of sabotage that might have been expected
from the type of Japanese that you describe.
Mr. CosTELLO. This is only my personal opinion. Dr. Taft, but that
has been the one cause of alarm as far as I am concerned, the fact that
you have not had on the Pacific coast any distinct case of proven sabo-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9351
tage on the part of the Japanese. That would indicate to me that the
Japanese have compk^te control over their people in the same manner
as the father of a family has control over his family and for that reason
sabotage has not been committed by individuals because they were
under instructions not to commit sabotage, which is a most unusual
situation because with 110,000 persons of Japanese ancestry if you do
not have a smgle act of sabotage by some one of them, it is phenomenal
and it would indicate to me that they have a very definite and com-
plete control of their nationals and that the time for sabotage has not
arrived.
Now, the lack of sabotage on then- part either prior to or subsequent
to Pearl Harbor, is likewise very indicative. Nothing happened in
the Philippines prior to or subsequent to Pearl Harbor, until the Japa-
nese started then invasion, but when the Japs started the invasion of
the Philippine Islands, that was when the Jap agents in the Philippine
Islands began to carry out their activities.
My thought is that if the Japanese were ever put in a position to
invade the Hawaiian Islands then for the first tune the real Japanese
agents among the Japanese people residing there would swing into
action.
And if the Pacific coast were actually to be invaded, if it were pos-
sible for Japan to bring an invading force this far across the Pacific
and attempt the actual invasion of the Pacific coast, then for the first
time the Japanese agents in our midst would go into action.
So, the actual lack of sabotage on their part, to my mind, is the
most alarming thing, and it indicates the greatest and strictest control
by the Japanese Government over the Japanese agents in om' popu-
lation.
Mr. Taft. Isn't it rather significant, Mr. Costello, that during
the several months before they were actually evacuated, when they
could have gotten in some very bad sabotage work, that would have
crippled our war effort, with the great number of utilities on this
west coast preparing for war paraphernalia, like airplanes, tanks and
so forth, and with the transportation system we have here, isn't it,
remarkable that for several months there was no effort made of any
kind that can be proven up, to cripple our war effort here?
Japan at that time w^as threatening invasion — ■■ —
Mr. Costello. I don't say it was "remarkable"; I say it was
"phenomenal" because when you have 110,000 people of Japanese
ancestry just recently removed from Japan — I mean they are living
in this countiy only a short time — generally the first generation", it
is remarkable that in that group you don't find 1 or 2 or 10 or 100 or
1,000 who have attempted that very thing.
Now, the most natural thing to expect if we were fighting Ireland,
would be a couple of hot-headed Irishmen to do something. You
would expect a few German saboteurs to do something. You would
expect a few Italians to do something because we are fighting their
mother countries. Yet the fact among the Japanese you do not
have a single instance of it and that indicates that Japan has definite
control; and there is no question but what the investigation of the
Dies committee prior to Pearl Harbor, going into subversive activities
of the Japanese Government, indicates that they had a tremendous
network of spies ^and Japanese government agents operating among
their people in this country; that they had definite control over them
9352 UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
and unquestionably they knew the names and addresses of every
Japanese person in our midst.
And that indicates to me that they not only had the information on
them but they had control over them and the lack of sabotage in-
dicates they were exercising that control.
Mr. WiRiN. May I have a word there? It seems to us phenomenal
and remarkable that, first the argument is that there are many persons
among the Japanese who are guilty and th"at it is hard to tell the guilty
from the innocent. Then the argument goes further: There isn't
any evidence of guilt at all but still everybody of the group should
suffer.
Let me complete my thought. This evidence that the Dies com-
mittee has had about the plans of the Japanese Government, if the
Japanese Government had been successful to reach the Japanese
population of the Hawaiian Islands, and I am not talking about the
considar agents of the Japanese Government, who were paid spies,
and who committed acts of espionage, and were exposed by the Rob-
erts committee, but if the Japanese Government had succeeded in
indoctrinating the military purposes of the Japanese Government to
the Japanese population, isn't it remarkable that at the time of Pearl
Harbor when, according to all our present information, the plan of the
Japanese military regime was to win the war, if possible, by one
attack on Pearl Harbor by destroying the American Navy at Pearl
Harbor, isn't it remarkable that not one resident of the Hawaiian
Islands committed one single act of sabotage? It seems to us if there
was any plan for cooperation with Japan that that plan would have
gone into effect at the time of the secret and unexpected attack at
Pearl Harbor.
Mr. CosTELLO. I think that again is indicative of what I am saying.
The attack that Japan made upon the Hawaiian Islands at Pearl
Harbor was the opening shot of the war. It was not the invasion
attempt to captiu-e the islands. It was to destroy our military
effectiveness.
Mr. WiRiN. Wouldn't sabotage have helped considerably in the
attack?
Mr. CosTELLO. Might have augmented the eft"ectiveness of the
initial attack but it would not have aided the invasion which Japan
intended to follow through with at a subsequent date.
Now, had Japan worked out a program of sabotage to be coupled
with the attack at Pearl Harbor, they would have had to notify the
Japanese people in the Hawaiian Islands of the impending attack,
and the success of the treacherous attack which they made depended
upon the United States Government not having any information of
the imminence of that attack, and had they notified their nationals in
Hawaii, the attack was going to take place on a specified date, the
danger of the American Government finding out that information and
thwarting the attack, was too great. Japan did not trust passing that
information on to her own nationals in Hawaii and they, therefore,
did not tell them and the Japanese did not expect the attack any more
than the Americans did. They did not expect that treachery.
Had it been the invasion force I have no doubt at all but what the
information would have been passed on to the Japanese nationals
there who were in the employ of the Japanese Government, and it
would have had cooperation in the invasion attack.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9353
Mr. WiRiN. T gather from your statement that is your own personal
opinion?
Mr. CosTELLO. These are personal opinions; yes.
Mr. WiRiN. That the Japanese of the United States, at least a very
large portion of them, are under direct control of the Japanese Em-
peror— the Japanese Imperial Government, and have not committed
any acts of sabotage, awaiting word from the Emperor.
Mr. CosTELLO. I will (jualify that by saying the loyal Japanese
have no intention of connnitting sabotage and that the disloyal
Japanese are waiting the orders to commit it. Therefore, they com-
pletely control the sabotage situation throughout all the Japanese
who lire not loyal to this country.
The loyal Japanese would not want to commit sabotage. It is
only the disloyal ones and Japan undoubtedly knows who are the
loyal Japanese and therefore they can control the situation.
'Mr. WiRiN. It seems to us phenomenal and incredible and fan-
tastic that if Japan has that kind of control over its nationals or a
large portion of them, such as you intimate in the United States, that it
must have had some similar control over the Japanese in the Hawaiian
Islands but there is not one single act of sabotage committed by any
such person at a most critical time in the life of our Nation, when
the war was started by the treacherous attack.
Mr. CosTELLO. This is pretty much off the subject.
Mr. WiRix. But it shows an attitude which is important because
if you give credence to that kind of position, then you feel like dis-
trusting every Japanese and then you feel like denying the rights of
the innocent.
Mr. CosTELLO. It isn't a question of distrusting every Japanese
but I do believe it is extremely difficult to apply any tests, any series
of tests, to determine the loyalty or disloyalty of the Japanese. That
has been indicated because people here who have placed extreme con-
fidence in certain Japanese, who have been with us over a long period
of time, have turned out to be definitely Japanese Government
agents. Now, that w^as not indicated prior to our getthig into the
war, and the same thing is true of other Japanese — ^the utter impos-
sibility of having any reasonable assurance that the Japanese you
allege to be loyal actually are. That makes it a very difficult prob-
lem to try to segregate them.
Mr. WiRiN. The difference between our view and yours is we do not
say it is utterly impossible to tell the loyal from the disloyal. We
accept the standards of the Army itself. There were some 5,000
American citizens of Japanese ancestry in the armed forces. The
AiTny has set up a special combat unit. They say they know the loyfl
from the disloyal. They want the loyal to offer their lives in the armed
forces and if you can tell a loyal person for the purpose of letting liini
offer his life, we say you can tell him and accord him the liberties ordi-
narily accorded citizens.
I am not going to comment on the Army taking in the Japanese or
whether they felt they were loyal. I do know once they become mem-
bers of the armed forces, any attempt on the part of the Japanese to be
disloj^al to the country would meet with summary treatment on the
part of the armed forces.
Mr. Eberharter. I do not think the American Civil Liberties
Union is here to plead for any disloyal Japanese. As I take it, you arc
9354 UN-AMERIOAN' PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
appearing here to see if some method could be followed which would
be the American democratic method of treating the loyal Americans of
Japanese ancestry properly.
Mr. WiRiN. Precisely.
Mr. Eberharter. I think if we confine the testimony to aomething
along that line we will get along much better and we will have some-
thing constructive.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you wish to proceed with your statement, Dr.
Taft?
Mr. Taft. I had almost finished, Mr. Chairman. I just want to
add this one thought: Instead of assuming that there is such perfect
control on the part of the Japanese Government over these people
that live here in our midst, who are of Japanese ancestiy, as your
remark awhile ago would seem to indicate, wouldn't it be more reason-
able to assume that the 70,000 Nisei who were born in this country and
have grown up here and who have stuck their roots down into our soil
and gotten our system of education to some extent, and done business
with the rest of our citizens, as they have grown up, are in love with
America, are loyal to it and can be depended upon through thick and
thin? Would it be well to assume that instead of the' assumption that
you make, that they are under the control of this foreign power and
that when the opportune time comes then sabotage will be committed
pretty generally by these special agents and these others who/ are
under their control? Don't you think that would be a reasonable
assumption?
Mr. CosTELLO. I would say yes — I could agree with your assump-
tion that the native-born Japanese who have not returned to Japan
and have not come under any pro-Japanese influence, but have simply
been in contact with American influences, undoubtedly would be Loyal
but at least 10,000 of the native-born Japanese males have been mem-
bers of the Butoku — Kai, which is a Japanese militaiy organization in
this country, which means that 10,000 of these 70,000 native-born
Japanese have very definitely come into contact with and under the
control of Japanese culture and military indoctrination and training,
so that a very large percentage of the young males in the group to
which you refer definitely are subjected or have been subjected to
Japanese influence and their loyalty certainly would be subject to
some question
Now, as to the rest I will say that the thing would be to prove
their association with Japanese mfluences and thus to prove theh
disloyalty.
Mr. Taft. Grantmg what you have just said, then as a follow-up
wouldn't it be a fine thing to correct what has been a mistake made
in the past, and that woidd be to release those who prove up to be
loyal to our satisfaction, from these camps or centers and give them
a chance further to demonstrate their loyalty on a probationary
basis, perhaps, and if they do anything in the way of sabotage or
disloyal acts, then they shall be returned to the centers.
Wouldn't that be m harmony with American procedure and a
fine way to, perhaps, correct what was a blanket method of handling
a problem of this kind?
Mr. CosTELLO. That has been one subject of our criticism, that
the authorities in charge of the relocation centers have made no
effort, apparently,' to segregate the good from the bad.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9355
Mr. Taft. Aren't tliey domg it now?
Mr. CosTELLO. At least the known bad in the camps have not
been removed from the centers.
Th(^ testimojiy before our committee indicates in cases of dispute,
attacks, and assaults the known bad Japanese have been left at the
centers and the persons who were attacked and assaulted have been
removed. In those cases the good Japanese were actually put in
dehuite segregation camps— abandoned C. C. C. camps, and according
to the testimony they are using reverse English on their procedure,
and that at the present time no real effort is being made to segregate
the known bad Japanese from the good Japanese in the centers. On
the contrary pro-Japanese persons are gaining control in the centers
and dominating the activities and are exerting pressure upon all the
people in the centers, and that is the very subject of our criticism of
the management of the war relocation services.
Mr. Taft. Let me ask j'ou, I understand between twelve and
thirteen thousand have already been released by Mr. Myer.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is correct.
' Mr. Taft. Have any of those released people proven unworthy of
the liberty that has been conferred upon them?
Mr. CosTELLO. I do not know the names of the individuals nor the
places to which they have been sent, and I do not know of any acts of
sabotage, if that is what you mean, having been committed by them.
But from our testimony here it is indicated that no real effort has been
made to check upon the past record of those individuals in the civilian
communities in which they lived, and that the only record they have
of the Japanese whom they are releasing is the record made at the
center.
For example, the mayor of the city of Los Angeles testified that no
check was made upon the records of persons in the employ of the city,
by the authorities of the War Relocation Authority before they re-
leased those individuals, which I feel should have been done.
Mr. Taft. As I understand it, they are being let go at about the
rate of 1,000 a week from various centers in the West, and that they
have gone on to these ranches and farms and to schools and to various
places and by this time if that went forward at the rate of 1,000 a
week, twelve or thirteen thousand, in 12 or 13 weeks have passed since
the original ones were let go. Wouldn't it by this time appear
as to whether or not that kind of an experiment were justified?
Mr. CosTELLO. I can only revert to my previous opinion that I have
stated, that those who are intended to do sabotage or to carry out the
workings of the Japanese Government, are under some control; that
unless it is the strategic time for it, it would not take place and the time
to worry about sabotage taking place is in advance and not after the
act has been committed.
It doesn't do us any good to say, "Well, we shouldn't have released
the Japs if three or four factories are destroyed." In other words,
my criticism is they are not making a thorough check of the Japanese
before releasing them.
Mr. Taft. Ma}- I ask you are the Nisei released exclusively or have
some of the Issei been released?
Mr. CosTELLO. There appears to be no distinction as to which per-
sons are actuallv being released.
9356 TJN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Taft. Well, I think the method that is being used, while it
may not be as thoroughgoing as it should be, it seems to have justified
itself thus far unless there is — ^unless there is that absolute control
that you assume on the part of the Japanese Government.
I can't quite conceive human nature made that way, myself — -that is
that there is such complete control over the Japanese that were born
in this country and brought up under American influences that they
could be relied upon to withhold any sabotage efTort until the hour of
12 struck. That sort of thing doesn't happen in human psychology
Mr. CosTELLO. The point I make is that the loyal Japanese under
those conditions have no intent or desire to commit sabotage. It is
only the disloyal who would do it and the disloyal are the ones trying
to further the interests of Japan and under Japan's influence. Those
are the ones Japan controls. The loyal ones are not controlled by
Japan.
Mr. Taft. And you feel there are quite a good many of them?
Mr. CosTELLO. Unquestionably there is a large number of Japanese
but unfortunately in the centers in which they are living the disloyal
Japanese seem to be allowed to gain the ascendency and control 'of
the centers and are undoubtedly exerting a subversive influence on
all Japanese. But let us change the situation. We are seeking in-
formation from you but you are not interested in my personal views
on this matter.
I prefer you continue to make your statement.
Mr. Taft. Well, I just wanted, as an aside, you might say, inas-
much as we have had a pretty free give and take here, and I think we
have enjoyed it on both sides, but I would like to ask what test the
Dies committee or you personally would recommend to be used in the
release of these people from the centers?
Mr. CosTELLO. Whether the committee will formulate any program
for testing the loyalty of the Japanese, I cannot say. It will have to
be determined when we have concluded these hearings and have visited
the center at Poston, followed by hearings in Washington. At that
time the committee may make a recommendation along that line but I
do not know whether the committee will be in any position to make
any such recommendation.
Mr. Taft. Let me thank you then, on behalf of our Committee, for
the privilege of appearing before you. We were eager to do so and we
feel that you have given us a pretty good opportunity to speak and
express our ideas.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you.
Mr. MuNDT. I have a question, Mr. Taft, I would like to clear up;
We got away on a round robin discussion here, but my understanding
of your attitude toward the Japanese is, if they are released to the
Pacific coast, and you correct me if I am wrong, your position is that
unlike Mr. Wirin, you feel that the Japanese who are returned to
the Pacific coast, if they are, should have the same access to the
beaches as any other American citizens?
Mr. Taft. Yes; if they are released as loyal citizens.
Mr. MuNDT. Now, one other question: You made a rather startling
statement and I am not sure it accurately reflects your convictions,
but you suggested that we pursue the present policy of releasing the
Japanese from these relocation centers and then if any of them are
actually caught in committing an act of sabotage, that they be returned
to the centers. Is that a correct statement of your position?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9357
Mr. Taft. I was statiiit; what I iindorstand is the pohcy in releasing
them. Tliey are practically on probation and they are returnable if
they do connnil acts that are disloyal.
Mr. MuNDT. You ieel if they are caught committing an act of
sabotage they should be returned to the centers?
Mr. T.\FT. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. I must say as for mysc^lf that I entirely and whole-
heartedly disagree with that. Certainly when a man is caught com-
mitting an act of sabotage he should be put in jail and prosecuted by
due process of law and not put back in a relocation center.
Mr. Taft. 1 meant to be returned immediately to the cent?r and
be prosecuted.
Mr. MuNDT. In my mind he should be put in jail and handled under
the due process of law and convicted if guilty.
Mr. Taft. Either way would be satisfactory to me.
Mr. MuNDT. I am not questioning your right to feel the way you do;
I am simply stating what I think about it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do any of you other gentlemen have a statement
you w^ant to make ni disagreement or comment on Mr. Wirin's
testimony?
Mr. Rylaxd. Mr. Wirin has thoroughly stated our position, at
least from my standpoint, and I concur in what he said.
I also ask to be excused.
Mr. CosTELLO. We appreciate your coming and being present at
the hearing this morning.
Mr. Wirin, you may continue with your statement regarding the
Japanese American Citizens League.
TESTIMONY OF A. L. WIRIN— Resumed
Mr. Wirin. I shall be brief. Since the matter of standards for
the loyal and disloyal was brought up, if your committee is going to
concern itself with that question, may I suggest to your committee
the study made by the Tolan committee of hearings granted in
England, both in the last war and in this war, to aliens who are sus-
pected of subversive activities, and I assume also you will make avail-
able to 3'ourselves the experience of the Department of Justice, both
in the last war and in this war, and the so-called alien board.
I want to say a few words about the Japanese American Citizens
League.
I already told you that as a m.atter of fact I never heard of the
organization before the evacuation. My interest has been solely
because I felt tliat there was a question of discrimination. In a word,
therefore, I would like as I testify about the Japanese Am.erican
Citizens League, to refer to some documents and instead of quoting
at length, give the document to the reporter for incorporation into
the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is all right.
Mr. Wirin. The Japanese American Citizens League, as I am
informed, was oiganizecl in 1920 — 23 vears ao;o.
As early as May 1941, prior to Pearl Harbor, the organization
adopted what is known as a creed for Japanese-Americans.
That creed was reported to Congress and appears in the Con-
gressional Record for May 9, 1941. It also appears in the brief filed
6i62e — 43— vol. 15 34
9358 UN-AMERIOAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
by the Japanese American Citizens League in the Reeham case at
pages 2 and 3, which I shall leave with the committee with the request
that the creed be incorporated in the record as my testimony at this
time.
Mr. CosTELLO. The reporter will copy it into the record at this
point.
(The creed referred to is as follows:)
I am proud that I am an American citizen of Japanese ancestry, for my very
background makes me appreciate more fully the wonderful advantages of this
Nation. I believe in her institutions, ideals, and traditions; I glory in her heritage;
I boast of her history ; I trust in her future.
Although some individuals may discriminate against me, I shall never become
bitter or lose faith, for I know that such persons are not representative of the
majority of the American people. True, T shall do all in my power to discourage
such practices, but I shall do it in the American way — above board, in the open,
through the courts of law, by education, by proving myself to be worthj^ of equal
treatment and consideration. I am firm in my belief that American sportsman-
ship and attitude of fair play will judge citizenship and patriotism on the basis
of action and achievement, and not on the basis of physical characteristics.
Because I believe in America, and I trust she believes in me, a;nd because I have
received innumerable benefits from her, I pledge myself to do honor to her at all
times and in all places; to support her Constitution; to obey her laws; to respect
her flag; to defend her against all enemies, foreign or domestic; to actively assume
my duties and obligations as a citizen, cheerfully and without any reservations
whatsoever, in the hope that I may become a better American in a greater
America.
The persons as respectable and as clear-minded and as fair as Gen.
David P. Barrows, Monroe E. Deutsch, Robert Gordan Sproul, and
Ray Lyman Wilbur have said or testified in statements submitted to
the Tolan Committee, which appears in the Tolan report, part 29,
page 11200, said this about the patriotism and loyalty of the Japanese
American Citizens League:
The Japanese American Citizens League, consisting of some 8,000 citizens of
Japanese ancestry, has made repeated pronouncements of loyalty to the United
States and of opposition to the aggressive policies of Japan. Many such Japa-
nese have encouraged their sons to enter the United States armed forces and have
subscribed to Defense bonds.
We appeal to all our members and to all citizens who see this statement, to make
its contents widely known, to cooperate actively in insuring fair play and security
to all law-abiding Japanese residents.
More particularly I want to cMl the committee's attention, first, to
the fact that at first persons of Japanese descent — American citizens,
were registered under the draft similar to other persons, and some
5,000 of them joined the armed services in that way.
Then the Army adopted the policy of not allowing persons of Japa-
nese descent to be further drafted.
The Japanese American Citizens League in a resolution which
appears in appendix C of the brief, and which I will ask to be incor-
porated, formerly requested the War Department to make opportun-
ities for service in the armed forces available to American citizens of
Japanese descent.
On ffanuary 29, 1942, in a letter addressed to this organization by
General Hershey, which appears on page 5 of this brief, said:
We trust that the action taken will accomplish the purpose which prompted the
resolution.
That is the action by the Army in cooperation with the Selective
Service to make opportimity available to Japanese- Am. erican citizens
of Japanese ancestry for service.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9359
And then as already has heen pointed out, statements were made
at ahoiit tliat time, both by the President and by the Secretary
of War.
Now, the first person to enhst in this unit known as the Japanese-
American combat unit, was Masaoka — Mike Masaoka. Mike
Masaoka has been for some time the executive secretary of the
Japanese American Citizens League and last week Mr. Masaoka
was inducted uito the Ai'iny.
Another person who is in the Army is Walter T. Tsukamoto. He
is a former president of the Japanese American Citizens League.
The present president is Mr. Kido.
Prior to the setting up of this unit, he was a captain in the Judge
Advocate General's OfRce and upon setting up the unit he volunteered
his services and was accepted.
Now, one further word.
The Japanese American Citizens League, when General DeWitt
announced the orders of evacuation, while believing that the orders
were unconstitutional, because they were discriminator}^ against
persons because of their race, as an act of loyalty and confidence in
the Government, and in the military, if you will, cooperated com-
pletely with the evacuation program — so much so that the organiza-
tion was unwilling at that time even, to sponsor any test case. It
was unwilling to file any suits in the court by way of injunction,
which were then contemplated, seeking to restrain the execution of
the military orders.
While the Japanese American Citizens League has appeared m the
Supreme Court as a friend of the court, as I have indicated, question-
ing the constitutionality of the exclusion, the organization has taken
consistentl}^ before the war and smce the war, despite a consciousness
of discrhnmation and injustice, an attitude of complete cooperation,
first, with the Army and then w^th the administration in any plan
the administration or Army has outlined.
I think that concludes my statement with respect to the Japanese
American Citizens League.
I would like to make one further brief statement, if I may.
I think it was yesterday a delegation from the State of Arizona
appeared here, or the day before, and discussed with you a piece of
State legislation which was adopted by the State legislature.
As counsel for the Civil Liberties Union, I have made more or less
careful study of the legislation.
I advised the organization that the statute is unconstitutional and
in the Forum, which is a publication of the local committee, there is a
short article in which I discuss the constitutionality of the statute
and I would like to leave that with the committee as well as the brief
of the Japanese American Citizens League in the Supreme Court, and
the brief of the American Civil Liberties Union in the Supreme Court.
Just a word about that statute since the papers carried great
publicity and some suggestion by someone it might serve as an
example for other States to follow.
The statute is, in our opinion, unconstitutional because it deprives
persons of Japanese descent the equal protection of the law, because
it is clearly discrimmatory, and aimed solely against the Japanese,
and the reason it is aimed against the Japanese, although that word
9360 ' UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
does not appear in the statute, is because it deals with persons whose
movements are restricted and persons who are ineligible to citizenship.
The only group in American society at the present time whose
movements are restricted and the members ineligible for citizenship,
are persons_of Japanese ancestry.
Of course there are persons who are ineligible for citizenship who
are not members of the Japanese race — -for instance the Chinese
people. No person of Chinese descent is eligible to nationalization
and that is also true of other oriental people; and now the statute is
vulnerable and clearly unconstitutional and the Civil Liberties Union
intends to appear in any court proceeding and challenge the constitu-
tionality of it, only because it is discriminatory and aimed at a certain
race.
I think you appreciate the general position that legislation or action
which is aimed at a particular group because of race is unconsti-
tutional.
The man who drafted the statute was very far from a good lawyer.
It was drawn very loosely so that it includes any person who is a
member of the armed forces, because every person who is a member
of the armed forces has his movements restricted by order and by
law, so that under this statute a person, a soldier who has a toothache
could not have his tooth pulled by a dentist in Arizona unless the
dentist published three times in a newspaper that there was an
intention to do the tooth pulling and advised the Secretary of State
and waited 10 days before he could consummate the business transaction.
Mr. MuNDT. Wouldn't the fact that the soldier is an American
citizen exempt him?
Mr. WiRiN. No; because it doesn't say anything about xlmerican
citizens. It says:
Any persons whose movements are restricted by any law or order.
Mr. MuNDT. And what?
Air. WiRiN. I said the statute was aimed against Japanese because
the only group in our community that comprised both elements was
the Japanese group.
Mr. MuNDT. The language of the statute says: "Or," rather than
"and".
Mr. WiRiN. That is right, but as applied it would apply to a soldier,
and certainly would apply to a person who is in prison.
Mr. Eberharter. I thought there were two restrictions, one as to
movement and the other as to eligibility for citizenship. Don't you
have to have both of those factors before the statute applies?
Mr. WiRiN. In any event one thing is clear.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you read that part of the statute?
Mr. WiRiN (reading):
Any person who enters into any contract or sells or purchases and sells goods —
I am omitting certain words:
Whose movements are restricted by operation of law or by any executive or
other order authorized by law, or from a person who is not eligible to citizeiiship.
Mr. Eberharter. That would refer to Chinese also?
Mr. WiRiN. Unquestionabty refers to the Chinese.
Mr. CosTELLO. Doesn't the use of the disjunctive destroy your
constitutional argument that it is discriminatory?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9361
Mr. WiRiN. In my opinion, it does not destroy the constitutional
argument because the constitutional argument as to discrimination
rims something like this: That vou — if vou can show that a statute
is intended against a particular group, then you come withm the pro-
tection of the Constitution which prohibits legislation directed against
a group.
Now, it often happens that legislation which is directed against a
group is so loosely drawn as to include within its wide net persons
never contemplated by the race baiters, and I say that the reading of
the statute upon its face would include the soldiers, would include cer-
tainly a person who was m prison, because his liberties are restricted.
Perhaps this is an exaggerated argument but it would include every
person in Arizona and every person in the United States because all
of us now have our movements restricted in one fonn or another due
to various military orders.
Many of us cannot go to certain areas in Arizona which are military
areas; and that is the peculiar vice of legislation which has race prej-
udice as its motive. It is always drawn loosely and catches withiu
its net innocent persons who were never contemplated by the legis-
lation.
Now, if I may go back for a moment, with your permission, with
my role as appearing for the Civil Liberties Union, I would like to
make a concluding statement and then I shall be done.
Mr. MrNDT. You are all through now in your role representing the
Japanese American Citizens League?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes.
I have tried to make it clear to the committee that neither I as a
lawyer or citizen, nor any of us in the Civil Liberties Union, are inter-
ested in the Japanese as such. We are interested in them as human
beings and interested in their rights as American citizens and in the
protection of their constitutional rights because we feel it is proper to
protect their rights even though they are small and at the present time
a hated minority, in order that the rest of us may have our rights.
^ As I have indicated we are particularly alarmed about this matter
of race discrimination. I like these words of the President, and I
quote them to you. They were uttered on January 2, 1942, and they
appear on page 76 of the brief that I am filing with the committee.
The President said:
Remember the Nazi technique: "Pit race against race, religion against religion,
prejudice against prejudice. IDivide and conquer." We must not let that happen
here. We must not forget what we are defending: Liberty, decency, justice.
Now, we are fighting a war for democracy — to maintain democracy
and to extend it throughout the world. We are fighting the war, not
alone. We are one of many united nations.
On our side are many nations whose people have a color of skin
different from the color of our skin. The Chinese are orientals and
we desperately need the help of the Chinese in these days. Indeed,
rhost of the people of the world who are on om* side do not have white
skins. We certainly need the assistance of those countries as well as
the Negroes of Africa.
Wf think that the unprecedente^l treatment of a group by way of
exclusion, by way of detention solely because of race hurts rather than
helps a war effort at a time when in order to win we need urgently and
9362 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
desperately the assistance and cooperation of other peoples of the
world, as I said, whose skins are colored differently from ours, and so
we are most concerned, as I have indicated, about this precedence we
have established in American life of discruninating against persons
because of the places where their fathers were born and persons whose
skins are different from ours, and the contour of whose eyes are differ-
ent from ours.
I think that concludes my statement.
Mr. Eberharter. I would like to ask a question or two, Mr. Wirin.
You assume from your testunony that the American Civil Liberties
Union does not believe in the so-called Exclusion Act.
Mr. Wirin. I think that is a fair statement although we haven't
given it any precise study in recent yaars,
Mr. Eberharter. Don't you think there are occasions during a
war period that certain liberties which we would all like to have, must
be dispensed with because of military necessity?
Mr. Wirin. Yes ; I agree with that.
May I qualify my statement: I agree to that but, however, the dis-
pensing of or granting liberties solely based on race should .not be
tolerated in a democratic community, either in war or in peace.
Mr. Eberharter. We are at war with Japan now.
Mr. Wirin. I understand that.
Mr. Eberharter. Don't you think that should be taken into con-
sidera tion as well as the equal treatment which you desire for all the
Japanese Americans?
Mr. Wirin. I think it should.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, wouldn't you advocate that the Japanese
aliens be accorded exactly the same treatment as the Japanese-Ameri-
cans?
Mr. Wirin. I would not.
Mr. Eberharter. And neither would you advocate that the dis-
loyal Japanese be treated the same as the loyal American-Japanese?
'Mr. Wirin. No.
Mr. Eberharter. That those who would be disloyal to this coun-
try
Mr. Wirin. And on the same basis I would not advocate a disloyal
Gemian or a disloyal Italian or any other disloyal person should be
treated the same as a loyal person of such national group.
Mr. Eberharter. I assume you further believe there should be a
separation of the Japanese who are loyal to this country from those
who are loyal to Japan?
Mr. Wirin. Yes; but a separation based upon hearings where the
pereon is given an opportunity to demonstrate his loyalty or where
evidence is submitted of alleged disloyalty.
Mr. Eberharter And you believe that a thorough investigation
should be made before any Japanese is released from a relocation
center?
Mr. Wi^iN. Well, I would say yes but I would say it depends agaiiit
where he was going. If he was going to work in a defense plant, I
would make a more thorough investigation than if he was going to work
on a farm in Arkansas.
Mr. Eberharter. If you were going to give them liberty to go
about the country after release from the relocation center you would
naturally have to make a thorough investigation of every one released,
would YOU not?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9363
Mr. WiRiN. I think a thoroiiiib investigation should be made and
I don't agree with the thoiiglit that he is given his liberty. I think
he has his liberty and he is entitled to his liberty to start with. I
don't think releasing a Japanese from a relocation center, who is an
American citizen, is granting him a privilege or a favor. I think it
is merely according him a right which he has as a citizen.
l\lr. Ebekharter. Well, then you don't think it should be neces-
sary for the Japanese to first prove his loyalty before he is allowed to
be free?
]Mr. WiRiN. I don't feel that a Japanese- American citizen should
fu-st prove his loyalty any more than a German-American citizen of
German ancestry on the east coast should first prove his loyalty before
he is released.
l\Ir. Eberharter. But you advocate a thorough investigation of
each and every one?
Air. WiRiN. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. There is a distinction between internment and a
relocation center.
Mr. WiRiN. There is, but I don't recognize it as. significant.
Mr. CosTELLO. But the War Relocation Authority wants it
recognized.
l\ir. Eberharter. Just one more thing, Mr. Wirin. Let us assume
it was absolutely a military necessity that the Japanese be removed
from the Pacific coast, and there w^as no time to make an investigation
of each and every one — that w^e did not have the facilities for that.
What alternative procedm-e would you have followed or could you
suggest?
Mr. Wirin. The evacuation of the Japanese took approximately
6 months. The experience of Great Britain, which I have already
submitted for your consideration, m the handling of German aliens,
and, mind you. Great Britain was in rather serious military danger at
one time, that some seventy or eighty thousand German aliens were,
by a system of hearing boards — ^many of them — -hearing boards
similar to our local draft boards, were given some kind of a hearing,
although rather summary and expeditious, and there was a sifting
out of approximately the same number over a less period in Great
Britam where the danger was greater. So, hindsight being better
than foresight, since the evacuation took place here, in taking approxi-
mately 6 months, such hearings as we are talking about would have
been entu-ely feasible.
The reason they were not held is because of the pressure of these
groups that insisted upon immediate exclusion from this area of
persons whom they wanted to make the scapegoat on the Pacific
coast. That is why I commend so highly the experience of Great
Britain in their alien hearing boards.
So I don't accept the theory there w^asn't time to grant hearings.
General Barrows and Monroe Duetsch and President Sproul and
President Wilbur took that view before the Tolan committee.
Mr. Eberharter. Can you suggest to the committee just what
procedure should be followed now with respect to the release of the
evacuees?
Mr. Wirin. I think now that persons who are in relocation centers
we should forget, perhaps, how they got there. That is a matter for
the courts to determine and for organizations concerned w^ith prin-
9364 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ciples of civil rights, like the Civil Liberties Union, but those persons
ought to be given a hearing, and I don't care too much as to where
the burden of proof is, as to whether a person has to prove he is
innocent or that he is not disloyal, or whether the Government has
the burden of proving he is disloyal; but those who are loyal should be
accorded their freedom, including freedom to return here, because I
think in refusing to allow them to return here the Government and
this committee encoin-age the element in our community to repeat
their threats of lawlessness when they don't want a certain group, and
if they don't want the Japanese they may decide that they don't
want the Negroes around here and then they will come and howl
before these committees about the danger from Negroes to the white
persons and, therefore, the Negroes should be deprived of their rights.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is there any indication of a movement of that
character?
Mr. WiRiN. We feel that you are at the core of it. The newspapers
are full of statements. One of the worst offenders is our own mayor
in beating the drums of prejudice against persons
Mr. CosTELLO. I mention the Negroes because you — don't you
think vou are now shouting w^olf, wolf, before there is a threat of a
wolf? "
Mr. WiRiN. No; I am not. I think what happened in this com-
munity in the last week or so against persons of Mexican blood, most
of them being American citizens, and many Negroes, on the alleged
claim it was because of the suits they wore were unattractive to other
persons is an example of clear race rioting in our community.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did the American Civil Liberties Union take any
part in the defense of these so-called zoot-suiters or have they taken
any part in the defense of them during the past 2 or 3 years in which
they have been active in the city?
Mr. WiRiN. No; we have not, but we do intend to offer counsel to a
number of persons who have been arrested and are now in custody in
connection with the recent riots against so-called zoot suiters, because
we believe they are race riots.
Mr. CosTELLO. Don't you think it is purely a case of gangsterism
and hoodlumism on the part of a bunch of youngsters who have not
had adequate home supervision, and the attempt to make it a racial
problem is dodging the factual issue of juvenile delinquency? That
is my personal opinion.
I think the activities on the part of groups such as the American
Civil Liberties Union or welfare workers in trying to make it a racial
question are only fomenting the difficulties and encouraging these
youngsters to be disorderly and not law-abiding, and they themselves
may be responsible for much of the disorders created here in the city
during the past week.
Mr. WiRiN. The views of the Civil Liberties Union is pretty much
the views of the committee appointed by the Governor of the State,
which includes some very responsible persons, and that is while there
is a problem of juvenile delinquency, it is not limited to persons who
are Mexicans or Negroes and that in any event persons, whether
they are soldiers or otherwise, who take the law into their own hands
and resort to vigilanteism, are not to be encouraged or condoned
by the committee.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9365
Mr. CosTELLO. I think wo will agroo on tlmt point, but I am
goiiij:; back before the time the Army or the Navy became involved
hi the picture.
Mr. WiRiN. This matter is not directly in point, but I will be glad
to discuss it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Just b^iefl^^ I think the zoot-suit trouble is indica-
tive of some of the other troubles you are referring to.
Mr. WiRiN. With the exception there were acts by some persons
wearing zoot suits which amounted to antisocial acts, and they have,
been prosecuted and should have been prosecuted, but no Japanese,
so far as we know, has committed any act of interference with the
war.
Mr. CosTELLO. The only point I wanted to bring out was that
many of these groups who, having adopted the zoot suit as a costume
which provided identification for their group, have indulged in law-
lessness, and the attempts of police officers here locally to bring charges
against those lawless elements have been interfered with by either
social welfare workers or others who have taken the misguided position
that the police were infringing upon the rights of a minority group,
wiiereas it was simply an exercise on the part of the law enforcement
agencies tO' try to protect the community against lawlessness.
Mr. WiRiN. So far as we are concerned we have not appeared for
any person wearing a zoot suit or any other unusual garb until the
recent incidents in our community, which we considered approximating
race riots.
Mr. CosTELLO. The recent incidents cam-e out of direct lawlessness,
and it wasn't a case of trying to create lawlessness on both sides. It
was because an attack had been made on individual personnel of the
Navy.
I agree with you that all persons who indulge in lawlessness, or
taking the law into their own hands, should be treated equally before
the law, and I think had an effort been made to do just that the
situation would be different.
Mr. MuNDT. May we go back for just a moment to the problem
which is immediately before the country, and that is the wisdom of
releasing Japanese from the relocation centers, and the problem of
determining upon their loyalty or disloyalty.
You apparently feel that before these Japanese are released from
relocation centers, if they are to be released, that som.e type of screen-
ing, I believe it has been called, or some type of hearing — some type of
investigation — should be made to determine which are loyal and which
are disloyal; is that right?
Mr. WiRix. That is true.
Mr. MuxDT. I would like to ask you, Mr. Wirin, w^hether 3^ou feel
you have had an opportunity today to present your viewpoint and the
viewpoint of the American Civil Liberties Union, and also the Japa-
nese Citizens Leasrue, in a complete manner, and that you have been
accorded fair and courteous treatment?
Mr. Wirin. I acknowledge I have been accorded courteous and fair
treatment, and I should like the opportunity of submitting a memo-
randum on behalf of ihv Japanese Cit'zens League, because my state-
ment about that organization has been very sketchy and I want to
say one further word, and that is, while the granting of a clean bill of
9366 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
health by the Dies committee has not necessarily been a mark of
satisfaction, the Dies committee has — of the Civil Liberties Union,
granted us a clean bill of health.
Sometime ago Mr. Hays, our general counsel, was before the com-
mittee and Ml'. Dies made a statement that the Dies committee had
investigated our organization and found it not to be subversive; so we
appreciate small favors from wherever we get them. We hope you
don't change your mind.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you feel if we permit you to file this memorandum
of which you speak, you then will have been granted an adequate and
fair hearing?
Mr. WiRiN. Yes. Of course, I would much rather, if you propose
to make a report about the Japanese American Citizens L(viguc, that
you permit one of its spokesmen who is familiar with its activities to
speak for the organization.
Air. CosTELLO. The purpose of these hearings is to inquire into the
Japanese relocation center activities.
Mr. WiRiN. Wliat I have in mind, the papers have intimated — I
don't believe everything I read in the newspapers, but they have
intimated that your committee is investigating the Japanese American
Citizens League or has some opinion as to its alleged, subversive
character.
If you intend to make some findings or report in that connection, I
think in fairness some official of that organization should appear before
the committee.
Mr. MuNDT. None of these hearings during the past 2 weeks have
been directed to a determination of the loyalty or disloyalty of that
organization. However, there have been some previous investiga-
tions, but not at this time; and I think the chairman will bear me out,
we have not denied to any representative of the Japanese American
Citizens League the privilege of appearing before our committee
during the past 2 weeks.
Mr. WiRiN. They can't come here; they are in relocation centers.
Mr. CosTELLO. The organization as such has not been a direct
subject of our inquiry at all. I do not recall any statements with
reference to it.
Mr. MuNDT. And you are the only person who has requested a
hearing before the committee, representing that organization.
Mr. WiRiN. You have been very courteous and very fan-, I admit,
and am glad to admit it.
Mr. CosTELLO. That will conclude our hearings in Los Angeles.
The committee is going to make a visitation of the war relocation
center at Poston, Ariz., tomorrow, and testimony will be taken at that
time.
Following that it is- the intention of^ the committee to return to
Washington, and I expect hearings will be- resumed there.
With that, the committee will stand adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 2 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until Friday,
June 18, 1943.)
mVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
FRIDAY, JUNE 18, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee to
Investigate Un-American Activities,
Parker, Ariz.
The subcommittee met at 6 p. m., in Room 26, Parker Hotel, Parker,
Ariz., Hon. John M. Costello, chairman of the subcommittee, pre-
siding.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, and Hon.
Herman P. Eberharter.
Also present: James H. Steedman, ifivestigator for the committee,
acting counsel.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
For the purposes of the record I will state the committee visited the
relocation center at Poston today and is assembled at this time for
the purpose of hearing one or two witnesses.
As I understand it, Mr. Steedman, you have a statement you desir.
to make?
Mr. Steedman. Yes.
Mr. Costello. Will you please be sworn.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES H. STEEDMAN, INVESTIGATOR, SPECIAL
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
(The witness was duh^ sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Costello. Will you please state your full name?
Mr. Steedman. James H. Steedman.
Mr. Costello. And your occupation?
Mr. Steedman. I am an attorney by occupation; I am an investiga-
tor for the committee.
Mr. Costello. Will you proceed with your statement, Mr. Steed-
man.
Mr. Steedman. Mi-. Chairman, this afternoon in company with
Mr. Jack Ambrose, the committee reporter, and Mr. Ralph String-
fellow, the chief special agent for the Metropolitan Water District of
California, I visited the warehouses near Parker.
Mr. Costello. Warehouses belonging to the W. R. A.?
Mr. Steedman. That is right, sir.
And at the warehouse we interviewed a Mr. Sawyer.
In the first warehouse we visited, we found it to be full of cabinets.
Mr. Costello. ^\Tiat type of cabinets?
Mr. Steedman. They were large cabinets made out of plain lumber.
Air. Sawyer advised us those cabinets had been shipped into Parker
9367
9368 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
and had been in the warehouses for some time. I inquired of Mr.
Sawyer if that type of work could be done by the Japanese evaeu^es
at Poston.
Mr. CosTELLO. You mean the construction of those cabinets?
Mr. Steedman. Yes. And he advised us that there were many
carpenters at Poston who were not doing anytliing and could do that
type of work.
We proceeded then to the second warehouse and found what Mr.
Sawyer termed "another carload of these same cabinets." We asked
Mr. Sawyer if the Japanese could not also build cabinets of that type
and he said they could.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have an estimate as to the number of
cabinets in the two warehouses?
Mr. Steedman. No, sir we didn't have time to count them but
both warehouses were fdled with them.
Mr. CosTELLO. W'hat size would you say these warehouses are?
Mr. Steedman. I would say they are at least 75 feet square.
I asked Mr. Sawyer if he knew what they intended doing with the
cabinets, and he said he thought they were ordered for use in coimec-
tion with houses they were building for school teachers, but that he
thought the Japanese carpenters at the center should be put to work
to do that type of construction.
Mr. Costello. How long had the cabinets been in the warehouses?
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Sawyer stated they had been there for some
time.
Mr. Costello. Did they appear to be covered with dust and that
they had been there for some length of time?
Mr. Steedman. We could not tell that, Mr. Chairman.
From the looks of the cabinets they had not been there very long.
We proceeded from that warehouse to another warehouse contain-
ing huge refrigerating rooms. In one refrigerated com])artment, ac-
cording to Mr. Sawyer, was a carload of smoked bacon, pork loins,
pork shoulders, frozen liver sausage and he said that had been there
for 10 days and had not been touched up to that time.
While leaving that refrigerator, Mr. Sawyer pointed to a refrigera-
tor box car standing on the railroad siding and said that they had
just finished unloading a carload of spoiled spinach that had come
there from the center at Granada, Colo.
He said they, meaning the employees at the warehouses, called the
chief steward at Poston and told him the spinach was there; that it
was all rotten, and what should they do with it.
The steward advised the employees at the warehouse at Parker to
unload the spinach and they would feed it to the hogs. Mr. Sawyer
told the chief steward, Mr. Snelson, that there was $411 freight on
this spinach and suggested that the spinach be rejected.
Mr. Sawyer advised us that Mr. Snelson said not to bother with
that; to unload the spinach and they would feed it to the hogs.
Mr. Costello. Did the warehousemen refuse to accept that
shipment?
Mr. Steedman. Yes; he said they refused to accept it. It was then,
he said, they called Mr. Snelson but Mr. Snelson said:
Send it on down and we will feed it to the hogs.
Mr. Costello. And then the carload of spinach was unloaded?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9369
Mr. Steedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Aiid wluit did tlie spinach .woii2;h?
Mr. Steedman. More than 14,000 pounds according to Mr. Sawyer
Mr. Costello. Do you know whether that was the same spinach
that members of the committee saw while going tlirough the camp
at Post on? ^Ve observed them throwing spinach into a ditch, crates
and all?
Mr. Steedman. I couldn't testify to that because I wasn't with
the committee at that time. I was inspecting the warehouses.
Mr. Costello. The members of the committee in the course of
driving about the camps observed at least three truckloads on the
project.
Air. MuNDT. And Mr. Nelson who was driving the car in which I
was traveling, said the spinach arrived from Granada, so that is
apparently where the spinach came from, is it not?
Mr. Steedman. That was the information furnished by Mr.
Sawyer. I didn't see the bill of lading myself.
Mr; Costello. In other words, the committee observed the
destruction of the spinach concerning which you have been testifying.
Air. MuNDT, I asked him why he didn't feed it to the hogs and
he said:
It wasn't fit for the hogs.
Mr. Eberharter. I think in response to a question by myself,
"What is that being unloaded over there?" Mr. Head made a reply
which I did not quite get. Perhaps you remember what he said. I
tliink it was something to the effect that the material was spoiled.
Isn't that what he said?
Mr. Costello. Yes; and he made no further comment other than
it was stufi' that had spoiled that was being thrown into a dry ditch,
crates and all, directly from the trucks and at a considerable distance
from the place where the hogs were kept. It evidently was not going
to be retrucked to the hogpens.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Nelson who is in charge of No. 1 camp, and Mr.
Empie, who were both in my car, said the spinach came from Granada
and it arrived spoUed. I asked them why they didn't feed it to the
hogs and he said:
The people there said it wasn't even fit for the hogs.
Mr. Steedman. I think it might be pointed out in connection —
in that connection — Mr. Chairman, that at Granada there is another
War Relocation Authority project. I inquired of Air. Sawyer what
in his opinion would have been the proper business practice to follow
upon receipt of that spoiled spinach, and he advised me that the rail-
road was at fault for not properly icing the car and that the spinach
should have been rejected when it arrived at the warehouse at Parker.
Mr. Costello. But, according to your testimony, it was accepted
by the project authorities and delivered to the project and apparently
destroyed at the project.
Mr. Steedman. I was so informed b}^ Air. Sawyer in the presence
of Air. Ambrose and Air. Stringfellow.
Air. Chairman, while we were at the warehouse, we were going over
the ground rather carefully, and we saw a considerable amount of
food on the ground and I asked Air. Sawyer just where it came froin,
9370 UN-AMERIGAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
and he told us that the Japanese who come up to the warehouse
bring then- hniches and then throw the food away.
We picked up some of the cheese sandwiches which I would like
to show to the committee as an example of the cheese sandwiches
that they make at Poston.
Here is anc ther sandwich that was thrown away and here is a piece
of cheese. For the record I judge it is about 4 inches square and
about 1 inch tliick. This was thrown away, according to Mr. Sawyer,
by the Japanese.
He said not only do they throw away cheese like tliis but the
Japanese also throw away meat sandwiches.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did he explain why the Japanese do not use these
sandwiches? In other words was it a dislike for the bread on which
the sandwiches were made or what was the reason?
Mr. Steedman. No. At that point he just said:
Last winter the Japanese refused to work or to eat unless the project furnished
them hot lunches at the warehouse.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are there any facilities at the warehouse for serving^
hot lunches?
Mr. Steedman. No. Mr. Sawyer advised us that the project
sent trucks loaded with hot food to the warehouses for the Japanese
working there.
I have finished my testimony regaixling our visit to the warehouses,
Mr. Chairman, and at this point I have a document, the heading of
which is:
Background for the Relocation Program
It is also headed:
Prepared for Information of the Staff of the War Relocation Authority and
Not For Publication.
And the word "not" is underscored.
I obtained this document from Mr. Townsend. On the back of the
last page it has the stamp of the mails and files, "Received 4 o'clock,
December 3, 1942, Poston, Aiiz.," and I would like to introduce that
into the record as an exhibit and quote from this document.
Mr. Costello. I will authorize the quotation, and you may incorpo-
rate it in the record.
You say this is a document that Mr. Townsend gave to you and
was taken from the files of the W. R. A. center at Poston and was
prepared by the "War Relocation Authority?
Mr. Steedman. I received the document from Mr. Townsend, and
on the back it has the stamp, "Mails and Files, Poston." I am quot-
ing from the document at page 10, under the title: "Relocation
Program."
In every way the evacuees should be made to feel that it is their community
and that its ultimate success or failure depends largely on their efforts. Fullest
possible latitude should be accorded to the residents in the conduct of their com-
munity affairs. Cooperation and not paternalism should be the guiding principle
of all relationships between War Relocation Authority staff members and the
relocation people.
I think the portion which I have just quoted will explain a lot of
testimony that we have received during the last 2 weeks with regard
to the coddling of Japanese. I believe that these camp directors are
working under these instructions and that due to that fact they do
give in to the Japanese.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9371
1 would like to quote now from page 11:
Under the leave regulations which became effective October 1, 1942, it is the
poHcv of the War Relocation Authority to reestablish as many of the evacuees as
possible in private life outside the relocation centers. Because of the widespread
public apprehension toward all people of Japanese ancestry, indi\'idual reloca-
tion of the Japanese evacuees will obviously have to proceed slowly and without
fanfare of publicity for many months to come. Wholesale discharge of the
evacuees at this tin\e would lead almost inevitably to the very type of situation
that brought about curtailment of voluntary evacuation back in March. Within
the limits of national security and administrative expediency, however, the Au-
thority will work throughout the wartime period toward a gradual depopulation
of the" relocation centers and a dispersal of those evacuees about whom there is
no question of loyalty. In the last analysis, the relocation centers should be re-
garded not as places of detention or confinement, but as way stations on the road
to individual relocation and reassimilation into American life.
Mr. CosTELLO. What is the date of that doctiment?
^Ir. Steedman. The date of this doctunent — it was received at
Poston on December 3, 1942.
Mr. CosTELLO. And that was stibsequent to the visit of Dillon S.
Myer?
Mr. Steedman. I believe so, and I think this document indicates
the War Relocaton Authority intends to relocate the Japanese in as
quiet a manner as possible.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is the program that w^as being put into effect
that Dillon Myer had suggested in his talk at Poston on November 17,
1942?
Mr. Steedman. I wotild assiune that, sir, without having the facts
before me.
I also have a document dated October 23, 1942:
War Relocation Authority,
Washington, D. C, October 23, 19^2.
Administrative Instruction No. 8
supplement 5
Subject: Information regarding outside employment.
Negotiations for individual employment of evacuees outside relocation centers
under the leave regulations effective October 1 are not a proper subject for press
releases or public announcements by staff members of the War Relocation
Authority. Requests from newspaper representatives for information of this
kind should be referred in all cases to the prospective employer for reply.
D. S. Myer, Director.
This memorandum was furnished me this morning at my request
by Mr. Wade Head, the project director at Poston.
Mr. CosTELLO. And what is the date of that?
Mr. Steedman. The date of this memorandum is October 23, 1942.
Mr. CosTELLO. And that is a memorandum that was received at
Poston on that date or was it issued in Washington under that date?
Mr. Steedman. It is dated October 23, 1942. I don't know what
date it was received at Poston, Mr. Chjiirman.
Mr. CosTELLO. But it indicates no publicity should be given to
that partictilar document?
Mr. Steedman. Yes, sir. I believe these two documents indicate
that the War Relocation Authority intended to relocate the Japanese
without any publicity whatsoever.
9372 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. I am handing you a copy of the Poston Chronicle
dated June 18, which is today. You will observe on the front page
an article referring to that particular notice or possibly to another
notice, which was posted in the center?
Mr. Steedman. Yes, sir; I have read that. Do you want to put
that into the record at this point?
Mr. CosTELLO. Yes.
(The clipping referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 1," and made
a part of the record.)
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairman, the memorandum which you just
handed me is entitled, "Ofhce of Outside Employment," and is dated
"Thursday, June 17, 1943." I quote from the last paragraph of the
memorandum you just handed me.
Mr. CosTELLO. I might state for the record that that memorandum
was taken from the wall of one of the buildings at the Poston center
today:
Robert Dollins, War Relocation Authority relocation officer stationed in
Washington, has written this office inviting any one interested in doing farm
work in Washington, D. C, Maryland, Virginia, and Delaware, to go directly
without definite employment to those places and he \\\\\ see to it that placement
will be made immediately upon arriving. Mr. Dollins points out, however,
that to be eligible under this program the applicant must already have his eastern
defense clearance.
Mr. Chairman, there is a news item in the Poston Chronicle of
June 18, 1943, entitled "Farmers May Leave for Eastern Area,"
which refers back to the memorandum which I just quoted from.
Mr. CosTELLO. The newspaper will be made an official exhibit and
appended to the transcript of the hearing.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 2" and made
a part of the record.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Does that conclude your statement?
Mr. Steedman. Yes; that concludes my testimony.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you cah your next witness?
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Washum.
TESTIMONY OF JIM WASHUM, DEPUTY SHERIFF, YUMA COUNTY,
ARIZ.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your full name to the reporter?
Mr. Washum. Jim W^ashum.
Mr. CosTELLO. And yoin- occupation?
Mr. Washum. Deputy sheriff of Y'uma County, Ariz.
Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed, Mr. vSteedman.
Mr. Steedman. How long have you been deputy sheriff?
Mr. W^vsHUM. Eight and a half years now.
Mr. Steedman. Is your station at Parker, Ariz.?
Mr. Washum. I live at Parker and have the north end of the
county.
Mr. Steedman. You represent the sheriff of Yuma County for the
northern end of the county?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Mr. vSteedman. As I understand, the city of Parker is unincor-
porated?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9373
Mr. Washum. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. And throws the burden of law enforcement upon
you here in the city of Parker?
Mr. Washum. Upon the sheriff's office; j^'cs, sir.
Air. Steedman. Since the Japanese relocation center was estab-
lished at Poston, have you had occasion to visit the center?
Mr. Washum. Yes; 1 go down there quite often.
Mr. Steedman. Do you frequently receive reports from people
who are working in the center, and from people who go there fre-
quently?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And also from people in and around Poston and
Parker?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Washum, have you received reports that the
Japanese were fishing in an irrigation canal near the railroad bridge
and the highwaj^ just above Parker?
Mr. Washum. I received a report of that about a week ago.
Mr. Steedman. ^Mio reported that to you?
Mr. Washum. Mr. Roland — Henry Roland, who works for the
agency, Indian Agency m Parker. He told me he saw them, six or
eight of them, fishing at the tunnel here, the irrigation canal tunnel
underneath the railroad and the highway.
Mr. Steedman. And that tunnel rims under the railroad bridge at
that point?
Mr. Washum. Runs under the railroad and highway.
Mr. Steedman. Were the Japanese in Government trucks?
Mr. Washum. They had a Government truck there he said, and
they were fishmg off of the headmg of this tuimel, I guess you would
call it.
Mr. Steedman. Did he ask them to leave?
Mr. Washum. He told them to — "You had better get out of here,"
is what he told me he said, "You have no business around here."
Mr. Costello. And would that be on the Arizona side of the river?
Mr. Washum. It is on the Arizona side, yes; just at the end of the
two bridges, the highway and the railroad bridge.
Mr. Costello. And that is the highway leading from the Arizona
side into California across the river?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir; and the canal that irrigates the reservation
down there.
Mr. Mundt. Did the Japanese move when he told them to?
Mr. Washum. Yes. He said they left the tunnel underneath the
highway and the railroad there and they were fishing off the head of
that concrete heading at one end of the tunnel.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Washum, do you know Mr. Miller who is the
director of internal security at Poston?
Mr. Washum. I know a Mr. Miller down there. I laiow him as
the chief of police.
Mr. Steedman. Have you seen him in the last day or two?
Mr. Washum. I saw him last evening.
Mr. Steedman. Did he discuss with you the problem of the Japa-
nese being in Parker with you last night?
Mr. Washum. He did.
62626— 43— VOL 15 35
9374 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Did lie tell you last night that if you saw any
Japanese in Parker after this morning to run them out of town?
' Mr. Washum. Well, from then on; from the time he told me.
Mr. Steedman. From the time he told you last night?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. He said that he did not want any Japanese in
Parker after that date, is that correct?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did that refer to any Japanese Avho might be
traveling by train and leaving the relocation center and going to some
other location? -
Mr. Washum. No. He told me that the day before — day before
yesterday that they had a complamt that there was a number of
Japanese in town here in Government trucks and someone had taken
the numbers of the trucks and telephoned down and reported it and
he asked me if I had seen them.
I wasn't in town that day and I told him "No," that I had not seen
them and he went on to tell me, "From now on any Japanese that you
catch on the streets here, run them out of town," and he said if any
had Government trucks to take the numbers of the trucks and call
him and report it to him.
I told him that we didn^'t have a quarantine on Japs any more. We
did have a quarantine on them for awhile. There w^as infantile
paralysis but I told him the quarantine expired and I didn't know on
what authority I could run them out of town and he said the order
had been issued for them not to come to town any more.
Mr. MuNDT. Did he sa}^ who the order had been issued by?
Mr. Washum. No, he didn't.
Mr. MuNDT. Did he indicate it was a recent order?
Mr. Washum. He talked as though it was. I understood it was
just a recent order.
Mr. MuNDT. Normall}^ during the past 10 days or 2 weeks, did you
see many Japanese on the street at Parker?
Mr. Washum. Not as many as there once was, but I have seen
them in the mercantile stores and hardware stores and drugstores.
Mr. MuNDT. V/ithin the last 10 days?
Mr. Washum. Yes; I have seen quite a number in the hardware
store in the last week or 10 days.
Mr. MuNDT. Apparently making purchases?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the Japanese in the
Poston relocation center purchased a large number of hunting laiives
recently?
Mr. Washum. That is not of my own knowledge. According to
hearsay they have been.
Mr. Steedman. Has anybody reported that fact to you?
Mr. Washum. I have had people tell me that they had seen them
buying hunting knives down there.
Mr. Steedman. Did more than one person tell you that?
Mr. Washum. Yes; I have had several people tell me that.
Mr. Steedman. Buying hunting knives from the hardware store?
Mr. Washum. From the hardware store here in Parker; yes.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the Japanese are
permitted to leave the relocation center at Poston?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9375
Mr. Washum. Well, I know that they do leave. I have seen them
all over the north end of the county by themselves m Government
trucks with no guard or escort of any kind with them.
Air. Steedman. Are the people of Parker concerned about the
possiblity of sabotage at the Parker Dam?
Air. A\'ashum. a lot of them are. A lot of people here think it is
possible that they could sabotage anything around here.
Air. Steedman. Because'^they are out and without escorts and in
Government automobiles; is that correct?
Air. AVashum. Yes, sir.
Air. Steedman. "When the Japanese were settled at Poston, do you
know whether or not citizens of Parker received assurances that the
Japanese would not come up to Parker to shop and to visit?
Air. Washum. I remember one man in here—I can't remember his
name or what department of the Government he worked for, but he
represented himself to be as a Government man.
He said that he came to town to talk with people and see what the
attitude of them was toward the Japanese coming here, and he told
me at that time that they would never under any circumstances allow
any Japanese on the streets of Parker.
Air. Steedman. Was that information disseminated generally
around Parker?
Air. Washum. That is the impression he left here with the people
he talked to. I don't know how many he talked to but that is what
he told me.
Air. AIundt. Was that a man from the Washington office or from
the local project?
Air. A\'ashum. No; I think he was from the coast.
Air. AIundt. Probably from the regional office?
Air. Washum. I don't know.
Air. AIundt. By the way, what is the name of this hardware man
who allegedly has been selling knives to the Japanese?
Air. Washum. R. H. Thompson.
Air. Steedman. We have had considerable testimony before the
committee to the effect that last November the Japanese either had a
strike or a riot in Poston. What is your information on that point?
Air. Washum. I understood it was a general riot. I was never
down there during that time.
Air. Steedman. Did you receive any reports on it?
Air. Washu^m. I talked to a lot of different fellows who were working
there and taUced to them continually about it all the time it was
going on.
Air. Steedman. Did I understand you to say tliis afternoon that
Air. Head announced that the riot or strike was off and yet it was still
in progress?
Air. Washum. At the time that Air. Head had in the papers his
announcement that the strike was broken because the loyal American
Japanese did their part in breaking up the strike, a number of dift'erent
fellows that worked at the camp were telling me that it was going on
just as strong as it ever was.
Air. Costello. Did you visit the center during the course of that
strike?
Air. Washum. I never did ; no sir.
9376 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Steedman. Do you know whether or not the people of Parker
are satisfied with the present management of the camp?
Mr. Washum. No, sir; they are not. The majority of them are
not. Of course, you will find a few businessmen here in Parker, two
or three of them, who would like to see the Japanese turned loose and
sent up to town and do their shopping, but you will find a number of
businessmen here that won't sell a Jap anything.
Mr. MuNDT. Did the Lions Club of Parker at one time send a com-
mittee to the project suggesting that they let a limited number of
Japanese come to Parker to shop?
Mr. Washum. I couldn't say.
Mr. MuNDT. You haven't heard that they did?
Mr. Washum. I don't believe the Lions Club did, no, sir; I don't
believe they did. That movement was around here — ^some of the
businessmen were talking of doing that.
Mr. CosTELLo. Does the sheriff of Yuma County maintain an office
here in Parker, and do you operate out of that office?
Mr. Washum. Yes, I have an office here.
Mr. CosTELLO. So if any complaints were to be made on the part
of the people here in Parker, they would be addressed to you at your
office here?
Mr. Washum. They would be made to me; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. So by reason of that you have many of the people
in Parker come to you and register complaints concerning the Jap-
anese beuig in the city of Parker?^
Mr. Washum. Yes — -well, not in the way of complaints so much
as just come to me, talking about it, and to tell me that they had
seen a Jap do this or that they had seen a bunch of Japs unescorted
and things of that kind.
Mr. CosTELLO. They try to bring to you facts that they feel you,
as deputy sheriff of this county should have?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. And leave those facts with you so they might be
helpful to you?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. And in that way you do receive considerable
information from the people here in this community?
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. That is all I want to ask the sheriff. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Eberharter. If I may ask one question of the sheriff. Has
there been any trouble in the city of Parker within the last 6 months;
that is, unusual trouble in any respect?
Mr. Washum. You mean caused by the Japs?
Mr. Eberharter. In the way of violence or in the way of disputes
or in the way of excessive drinking, or has the work of the law-enforce-
ment officers been increased in the past 6 months?
Mr. Washum. The biggest increase we had in business was during
the construction of those camps when we had all the construction work-
ers in here. We had an awful increase in business at that time. But,
of course, we have more business now than we did 2 years back. You
have a lot more people here than we did then, but we haven't had a
great increase in busmess in the last few months.
Mr. Eberharter. Any increase in law-enforcement activities was
the natural result of an mcrease in the number of people living in
Parker?
un-americajS" propaganda activities 9377
Mr. Washum. Yes, sir.
Air. Eberharter. Would you say that the fact that 'the Japanese
have boon coining; to tho tow n of Parker has had any effect in increasing
your duties as a hxw-onforcement oflicer?
Mr. Washum. Well, not in the town here. Of course, we have juris-
diction over the Japanese so far as State law is concerned.
]\fr. Eberharter. Yes.
jNIr. AVashum. And we have had a few cases down there. Of course,
that causes a lot of work, when we have a felony case or something
like that there in the Japanese camp. When that happens we have
to take it to Yuma to prosecute it and that causes a lot of extra work.
Mr. Eberharter. You have been caused extra work by reason of
matters arising within the camp?
Mr. Washum. Oh, yes.
Mr. Eberharter. But insofar as the Japs being visitors in Parker
and the surroundmg area, that has not increased your duties as a law-
enforcement officer?
Mr. Washum. AYhen they were sending them up here shopping a
few weeks ago — they used to send up 25 or 30 a day shopping, and we
had to watcii them pretty close because there are always some drunks
or somebody else going to wliip a bunch of them,
Mr. Eberharter. That is some American citizens Avho feel resent-
ment toward the Japanese, in general, would be inclined to start
trouble?
Mr. Washum. That is right, both civilians and soldiers.
We had a soldier who went in a drugstone and there was a Jap in
there and he was going to clean them out. He was about half drunk.
Mr. Eberharteb. So the presence of these Japanese from the
relocation center is a source of irritation to the people of Parker?
Mr. Washum. It is; yes. And it causes us extra work in that we
just have to hang around to keep some of them from getting hurt
and causes a lot of trouble.
Mr. Eberharter., And you knowing the temper of the people in
this area, feel that it may be the cause of a major disturbance some-
time?
Air. Washum. That is right.
Mr. Eberharter. That is all; thank you.
Mr. Washum. You have got a number of people here that have got
boys in the Army — got several of them that have boys in the Army
that have been killed by the Japanese and they walk into a drugstore
for a Goca-Cola or something and the Japanese have all the seats,
and they walk into the grocery store and the Japanese are crowded
in there and you have got to mill yom- way around them and they
resent that.
Mr. Costello. So j'^ou feel the temper of the people is such that it is
just not wise for the peace and quiet of the community to allow the
two to mLx together — the Japanese people with the white people?
Mr. Washum. That is right.
Mr. Costello. But actually your office has not had any cases
against Jai)anese for law violations outside of the center at Poston?
Mr. Washum. No; the only law violations we have had to take care
of among the Japanese have i3een in the center.
Mr. Costello. The onlv time your office has been called in has
been to remove Japanese from the center?
9378 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Washum. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. For violations of regulations there for which they
had been apprehended?
Mr. Washum. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you veiy much, Sheriff.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Steedman. Our next witness is Mr. Ralph Stringfellow.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you please stand and be sworn.
TESTIMONY OF RALPH STRINGFELLOW, SPECIAL AGENT, METRO-
POLITAN WATER DISTRICT OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you state your full name to the reporter?
Mr. Stringfellow. Ralph Stringfellow.
Mr. CosTELLo. You may proceed, Mr. Steedman.
Mr. Steedman. What is your present address?
Mr. Stringfellow, Earp, Calif.
Mr. Steedman. And what is your occupation?
Mr. Stringfellow. Special agent for the metropolitan water dis-
trict of southern California.
Mr. MuNDT. Where is Earp, Calif., located?
Mr. Stringfellov/. Just across the river. It is just a mile across
the river. That is the railroad junction on the California side of the
Colorado River.
Mr. Steedman. How long have you been chief special agent for the
metropolitan water district?
Mr. Stringfellow. I have been with the metropolitan water
district going on 11 years.
Mr. Steedman. Prior to your employment with the metropolitan
water district, what type of work were you engaged in?
Mr. Stringfellow. I was in jjolice work for the United States
Government.
Mr. Steedman. You have had many years of police experience, is
that correct?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, sir. Before I went with the Government
I was in the Los Angeles sheriff's office.
Mr. Steedman. Wliat are your duties as chief special agent for
the metropolitan water district?
Mr. Stringfellow. The protection of life and property on the
metropolitan water district system.
Mr. Steedman. And does that system include pumping plants and
the aqueduct system?
Mr. Stringfellow. It does.
Mr. Steedman. And does that aq.ueduct system supply water to
Los Angeles?
Mr. Stringfellow. It supplies water not only to Los Angeles but
to 13 coastal cities as well as to Camp Young, the largest desert
training center there is in the country, as well as Camp Hahn, Marsh
Field, and all of the camps along the desert.
Mr. CosTELLO. You are referring now to water supply?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes; that is water supply. The power comes
from the Government plant at Parker Dam and not from the metro-
politan water district.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9379
Mr. Steedman. And llio wator that is suppliod the cities and train-
ing camps you have just named goes into the aqueduct by means of
an intake pump at the Parker Reservoir, is that correct?
Mr. Stringfellow. Tes, sir; 2 miles upstream from the dam.
Mr. Steedman. Is the reservou' back of Parker Dam known as
Lake Huavasu?
Mr. Stringfellow. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. How far is that from the Poston project?
Mr, Stringfellow. Well, it would be 36 miles.
Mr, MuNDT. From the boundaiy of the project?
Mr, Stringfellow. Yes, sir; from the boundary of the project.
Of course our project runs closer than that to Poston. You see that
is just the intake of the plant.
Mr. MuNDT. What is the closest point your project goes to the
relocation center?
Mr. Stringfellow. I would say 18 miles. That is an estimate.
Mr. Steedman. Since the begmning of the construction of the
aqueduct system, have you been employed by the metropolitan water
district?
Mr. Stringfellow. I have.
Mr. Steedman. And during that period have you escorted engineers
from foreign countries up and dowai the length of the aqueduct system?
Mr. STRINCFELLOw^ I have. I have escorted engineers from prac-
tically every country in the w^orld.
Mr. Steedman. Have j^ou escorted Japanese engineers on similar
trips?
Mr. Stringfellow. At least once a year for 9 years.
Mr. Steedman. And have the Japanese engineers surveyed the
aqueduct system during that period?
Mr. STRINGFELLOw^ They didn't survey the aqueduct system but
they had access to the maps and access to any part of the aqueduct
that they desired to see, up until December 7, 1941 — the time of
Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Steedman. What was the date upon w^hich Japanese engineers
last m.ade a survey or inspection of the aqueduct system?
Mr. Stringefllow. About 2 years ago.
Mr. Steedman. Do you recall how many Japanese engineers were
in the party?
Mr. Stringfellow. A party of four.
Ivlr. Mundt. Were they Japanese engineers from Japan or American
Japanese?
Mr. Stringfellow. I couldn't answer that question. They were
sent to me with instructions to take them over the system, or I would
meet them in a certain section w^here I would show them that part of
the project.
Mr. Costello. Was it your understanding that they were taken
over the complete project from time to time from one end to the
. other?
Mr, Stringfellow. That is right. They start in, for instance,
and go, say, to what we call division 5. Well, all right, there the
superintendent took care of them and then they come to No. 4 and
that superintendent would take care of them and then 3, 2, and 1,
All right, there would be a section where there would be no one there.
That is what w^e would call the "lay-off period" and it was up to me
to take care of them at that time.
9380 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
OrdiDarily they were conducted by engineers of the company.
Mr. Steedman. Just prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, were
Japanese discovered measuring the flow and depth of water in Lake
Havasue?
Mr. Stringfellow. They M^ere.
Mr. Steedman. By whom?
Mr. Stringfellow. By a United States game warden by the name
of Jim Meadows.
Mr. Steedman. Did Mr. Meadows report that fact to you?
Mr. Stringfellow. He did.
Mr. Steedman. Where is Mr. Meadows today?
Mr. Stringfellow. He is in the hospital. He was bit by a rattle-
snake night before last.
Air. Steedman. And he would have been here today to testify had
he not been bitten?
Mr. Stringfellow. He would.
Mr. Steedman. Did he give you any facts concerning the appre-
hension of the Japanese on Lake Havasu?
Mr. Stringfellow. He told me they were measuring the depth and
speed of the water and the width of the current — of the stream.
Mr. Steedman. Were these Japanese in a boat?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, sir they were in a boat. The boat was
launched from the Kingman side of the river.
Mr. Steedman. And did Mr. Meadows report that also to Ins office?
Mr. Stringfellow. I don't know whether he made a report to his
office or not, but he made a report to me.
Mr. MuNDT. Were they doing that without permission?
Mr. Stringfellow. Oh, yes, without permission. I took a boat
the minute that he notified me — ^I took a fast boat and I went up there
because 6 months before Pearl Harbor we made it a policy that no
pictures whatsoever should be taken and regardless of who took the
pictures I opened the cameras and spoiled the films.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever take any cameras away from any Japa-
nese around Parker Dam?
Mr. Stringfellow. I have.
Mr. MuNDT. How many?
Mr. Stringfellow. One Jap had seven cameras in a panel truck
up on the river for 2 days. This was about 6 months before Pearl
Harbor. And I opened his cameras and spoiled all the film that he
had with him, and his good film and the film he had taken I exposed
it all.
Mr. MuNDT. Were the Japanese taking a definite interest in the
Parker Dam and the Los Angeles aqueduct?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, sir; a very definite interest in it in that
they have maps showing every foot of it, showing every syphon,
showing every tunnel, showing every pump house.
Mr. MuNDT. How do you know that?
Mr. Stringfellow. Because I saw the maps that they had.
Mr. Costello. At the time they came to inspect the aqueduct?
Mr. Stringfellow. When they came they were given maps and
they made maps of their own and added to those maps.
Mr. Steedman. Plas any dynamite been stolen from the metro-
politan water district during the last 60 or 90 days?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9381
Mr. Stringfellow. Not from the metropolitan water district,
but 7 cases of dynamite was stolen 3 miles cast of here; and it was
not stolen by any miners because the dynamite stolen was inch and
a quarter by 12 dynamite. No miner will ever dig a hole that big —
an inch and a quarter when he can dig a three-quarter-inch hole and
use three-quarter-inch dynamite.
Mr. Steedman. Where was that dynamite stolen from?
Mr. Stringfellow. Three miles east of here — out of a tunnel.
Mr. Steedman. Do you know who the dynamite belonged to?
Mr. Stringfellow. No. Mr. W'ashum can give you that infor-
mation. And less than 3 weeks ago the Government magazine was
broken into here. They tried to get into the dynamite magazine
but couldn't make that, but they did get into the cap magazine and
got 100 fulminate of mercury caps.
Mr. IMuNDT. Were any clues found indicating who might have done
either of those things?
Mr. Stringfellow. No.
Mr. Mundt. And that material has never been recovered?
Mr. Stringfellow. No.
Mr. Steedman. In other words when the dynamite was stolen no
caps were available to the thieves?
Mr. Stringfellow. No ; no caps were there.
Mr. Steedman. But later on some caps were stolen?
Mr. Stringfellow. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Is an investigation being conducted with reference
to the stolen dynamite?
Mr. Stringfellow. There is by the Bureau of Mines, by the F. B. I.,
and by Mr. Washum. This was all stolen in Arizona, you understand.
Mr. Costello. In other words the dynamite to which you refer was
stolen from the Arizona side of the river?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. AVhen you refer to a "tunnel," are you referring to
the aqueduct?
Mr. Stringfellow. No ; not the aqueduct. It is a tunnel over here
in the hills 3 miles east of town.
Mr. Costello. Wliat is the purpose of that tunnel?
Mr. Stringfellow. I haven't been there and I haven't seen it.
Mr. Costello. It was not dynamite belonging to the metropolitan
water district?
Mr. Stringfellow. No, sir.
Mr. Costello. To whom did it belong?
Mr. Stringfellow. I couldn't tell you. All I have is a report,
and after receiving the report I went through the mines on the Cali-
fornia side in the Whipple Momitains and inspected the dynamite
that they had to see what they were using.
Mr. Costello. That dynamite was taken out of a mining tunnel
located on the Arizona side of the river?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. How many guards are there on duty at the intake
pumping plant at Lake Iluavasu?
Mr. Stringfellow. I have four all told. I have one man on day
shift and one man on swing shift and one man on night shift. Then
I have what we call a lap-shift between 7 at night until 5 in the
morning, which throws a double guard on there during the night hours.
9382 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
♦
Mr. Steedman. Your responsibility goes only so far as the intake
pumping station, is that correct?
Mr. Stringfellow. Starts there; yes.
Mr. Steedman. And you have one man per shift at the intake
pumping- plant plus the spread shift that you mentioned?
Mr. Stringfelldw. That is right.
Mr. Steedman. Is that an adequate gviard at that important
intake station?
Mr. Stringfellow. No; and the reason we have so few is because
we can't get men, and the men we are working today are of such
type that a year and a half ago v/e wouldn't even consider interviewing
them or letting them in the office to interview them much less waste
our time talking to them.
Mr. Steedman. At one time did you have satisfactory guards?
Mr. Stringfellow. At one time I had a good system, yes; but the
State guard was organized and they took over. Of course that threw
my organization out and now when I am trying to reorganize you
cannot get men today.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is the State guard supposed to be offering protection
for the aqueduct system?
Mr. Stringfellow. They were but they were disbanded.
Mr. CosTELLO. For about how long a time did they do that?
Mr. Stringfellow. They came in July last year and they were
disbanded the 26th day of last month.
And to show you the type of men that I hired, I hired 26 men out of
the State guard when they were discharged, to do guard duty and I
even went so far as to go to the adjutant general to get them dis-
charged early so I would have them on the 26th. They weren't to be
discharged until the 1st and I ended up with 4 of them and those
4 are gone now.
Mr. CosTELLO. "V\^iat age were most of the State guards?
Mr. Stringfellow. They were men up around 45 and above that.
They are typical wiiios, as we would say; they came off of deep -five in
Los Angeles. Strictly winos, a pay day and they are gone.
Mr. Eberharter. Is that the guard you have now?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes; that I hired out of the State guard.
Mr. Steedman. Are you satisfied with the present guard force that
you have?
Mr. Stringfellow. I certainly am not.
Mr. Steedman. Do you feel that the metropolitan water district's
aqueduct which supplies the Army camps, Los Angeles, and the coastal
cities you have mentioned, is adequately protected?
Mr. Stringfellow. Well, that is a problem. Naturally I am not
qualified to answer that because of the fact I cannot speak for the
metropolitan water district. I can only speak for myself, but in my
opinion it certainly is not protected at all.
Mr. Mundt. Have you communicated that fact to the metro-
politan water district officials?
Air. Stringfellow. Very much so. In other words, we are
working — we are getting the best we can and doing the best job we
can.
Mr. Mundt. Do you know whether they have applied to the
Governor of the vState for additional guards?
Mr. Stringfellow. No I don't know that.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9383
Air. Steedman. Docs the Japanese center at Poston complicate in
your mind, the protection you are trying to give to tlie metropohtau
water district's aqueduct?
Mr. Strincfellow. Absohitely. I have absohitely no trust what-
soever in a Jap. I went to school with them in the years starting
1909 clear up through 1916 in Los Angeles, and I know what they
are and I know what their education was and I know that when they
get through with our schools they put the same number of hours in
in the Japanese schools, and when they graduated from our schools
they went to Tokyo.
And I have gone so far as to issue orders to my men if they see a
Jap on the aqueduct, kill him, because I don't trust a one of them..
Mr. Steedman. Have any Japanese been chscovered around Parker
Dam witliin the last 2 or 3 weeks?
Mr. Stringfellow. No. About 2 months ago Mr. Meadows appre-
hended two on the Bill Williams River.
Mr. Steedman. How far is that from the Parker Dam?
Mr. Stringfellow. About 5 miles.
Mr. Steedman. Were they Japanese from the relocation center at
Poston?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes; 36 miles away from it.
Mr. Steedman. Did Air. Aleadows question the Japanese?
Air. Stringfellow. As to what he did I couldn't tell you.. He
just told me that he caught them up there. That is out of my
jurisdiction. You understand the lake belongs to the Government.
Air. Steedman. So the Government is responsible for the protec-
tion of the lake and Parker Dam is that correct?
Air. Stringfellow. That is correct.
Air. Steedman. Do you know how many guards the Government
has at Parker Dam?
Air. Stringfellow. Day before yesterday they had 32. What they
have got today I don't know.
Air. Steedman. Are they civilian guards?
Air. Stringfellow. Yes, sir; they are handicapped the same as
I am.
Air. Steedman. Thirty-two guards to guard the Parker Dam 24
hours a day, is that correct?
Air. Stringfellow. That is right. Not only Parker Dam but the
generating plant.
Air. Steedman. Do you know the length of the shore line of Lake
Huavasu?
Air. Stringfellow. Well, the lake is backed up 55 miles to Needles,
so that would be 110 miles of shore line.
Air. Costello. But actually the shore line would be much longer
than that?
Air. Stringfellow., Yes, on account of the coves.
Air. AluNDT. Is there a current flowing through that lake sufficiently
so dynamite on a raft might float down and explode at the dam?
» 'Air. Stringfellow. Yes, there is; and I will give you a demonstra-
tion of that.
Six or seven months ago we had a fatality up there in the river.
A boat sank. You see there is one boat that is allowed to operate on
the lake. That is Air. Halstead's boat. Air. Halstead is mining man-
ganese for the Government and he is allowed to brilig the boat down
9384 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
the lake loaded with manganese and ship the manganese from Parker
Dam. His boat sank in the middle of the lake. One man was recov-
ered within 100 yards of where the boat sanlv; the other man was re-
covered 7 days later 18 miles down the lake.
Mr. Steedman. At the dam?
Mr. Stringfellow. Really in the mouth of the Bill Williams
River 18 miles away is where he was recovered.
Mr. MuNDT. Wliich proves there is sufficient ciu-rent to float a
j'aft do^vn to the dam?
Mr. Stringfellow. Absolutely.
Mr. Steedman. Do you laiow whether or not the Japanese at the
Poston relocation center are permitted to leave the center for over-
night trips?
Mr. Stringfellow. I was told by the procurement officer •
Mr. Steedman. And who is the procurement officer?
Mr. Stringfellow. At Poston? I don't Imow what his name is,
but he is the procurement officer down there. He is tall, rather
reddish hair, and a rather prominent nose.
He told me that they leave there with a pack on their backs and
they are gone from 3 to 7 days at a time and they can't tell you right
now how many men they have got in that camp because they don't
know.
Mr. Steedman. Why don't they know?
Mr. Stringfellow. They have no check on them. They depend
on the Japs to tell them how many Japanese they have in each block.
Mr. Steedman. Is it your opinion that the Poston relocation
center is run in a very loose manner?
Mr. Stringfellow. Very loose.
Mr. Steedman. Have you discussed this problem of Japanese being
allowed to roam around in this area with Mr. Head?
Mr. STRiNGFEtLOw. I liavc not.
Mr. CosTELLO. That would not be proper subject of your work?
Mr. Stringfellow. No; that would be up to the proper officials of
the metropolitan water district.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would it be reasonably feasible for Japanese from
the center to evade the guards on the highway leading into the center
if they desired to leave Poston?
Mr. Stringfellow. Very very easy for them to get out. In fact
I am satisfied in my own mind that the train wreck we had last June
was absolutely nothing but sabotage, and I tliuik it came out of the
Jap camp.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you have occasion to examine the wreck at
that time?
• Mr. Stringfellow. I did.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether the Santa Fe Railroad Co.
settled for damages arising out of that wreck?
Mr. Stringfellow. They did. The doctor from Poston— I don't
have his name, but I do have it in my files at the office, the doctor
figured out, Mr. Head told me, that his settlement amounted to about
$1,100 above costs.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would it be difficult for the Japanese to wander
out of the center and across the desert and make contact with other
persons?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9385
Mr. Stringfellow. No; it wouldn't be difficult. They could swim
the river and after they swiin that river they only have — well, they
have anywhere from a quarter of a mile to 3 miles to get to the
highwny.
Mr. CosTELLO. Diu'ing the summertune when the heat might be
excessive, they probably would not wander out into the desert?
Mr. Stringfellow. That is true, but by carrying a one gallon
water bag, you can travel all day across this desert regardless of the
heat.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether the Japanese have any
pecidiar fear of the desert or anything like that?
Mr. Stringfellow. No; I don't.
Mr. CosTELLO. That might lead them to hesitate about venturing
into the desert country?
Mr. Stringfellow. No; only to this extent, that we have found
them up here m the hills quite some miles away from camp, and this
is certainly all desert around here.
^Ir. Steedman. Do you find them traveling in Government
automobiles?
Mr. Stringfellow. I have seen as high as seven Government
automobiles parked over here and Japs unloading out of them.
Every truck was loaded to the gunwales with Japs.
Mr. Steedman. Is there considerable feeling in Parker against
the Japanese coming into the city?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, sir, there is. In fact on this whole
river — that is from here on up the resentment is very great.
Mr. Steedman. Are the people of Parker and -the Ptirker Valley
favorable to having the Japanese settled in those communities?
Mr. Stringfellow. The people I laiow in Parker and in the
Parker Valle}'' certainly don't want them, and the people, I know,
on the California side certainly don't want them.
Mr. Steedman. Do you belicA^e your opinion represents the general
opinion of this area?
Mr. Stringfellow. I do.
Mr. Steedman. Is there any additional information you have
which you would like to give to the committee?
Mr. Stringfellow. No, I can't think of anything else unless you
want to refer to the trip we made this afternoon.
Mr. Steedman. Mr. Chairnfan, I testified regarding the visit we
made to the warehouses this afternoon. It might be well for the
sake of the record, since I am an employee of the committee that.
Air. Stringfellow relate just what happened.
Mr. Costello. You might give your own statement regarding the
incident.
Mr. Stringfellow. Well, I took the two gentlemen down to the
warehouses and •
Mr. Costello. Will you name the two gentlemen whom you took
to the warehouses?
Mr. Stringfellow. Mr. James Steedman and Mr. Jack Ambrose.
I found the man I was looking for. He was standing with another
man on the platform looking dovTi the railroad track.
Mr. Costello. And j^ou might name that man.
'i\h\ Stringfellow. Mr. Cy Hennerd.
Mr. MuNDT. "\Miat was the name of the other man?
9386 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
]\Ir. Stringfellow. I don't know the other man's name.
Mr. CosTELLo. Is there any objection to liis name being in the
record?
Mr. Stringfellow. No; he doesn't care. Just a moment — the
other man's name was Sawyer.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are both of those men employees of the War
Relocation Authority?
Mr. Stringfellow. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. And are they in charge of the warehouse?
Mr. Stringfellow. They are employed at the warehouse. I told
Mr. Sawyer who these gentlemen were, and that they wanted to see
the place, so he introduced himself to us and we started out.
He said: "There is something you might be interested in," and I
said, "WTiat," and he said, "Well, that cheese laying on the railroad
tracks. This is where the Japs eat."
So we went down and picked up this cheese. There was quite a bit
of cheese there. And as we started off there was a sack with more
cheese in it.
Then we went' on down and went through the warehouses and saw
what was in the warehouses and what was in the refrigerators.
Mr. Costello. Did he mention anything to you about a carload
of spinach?
Mr. Stringfellow. I was going to tell you about the carload of
spinach. He told us that carload of spinach was on the track and
was spoiled, and that the chief steward accepted it anyway and it cost
the Government $410.
Mr. Costello. According to his statement the chief steward,
Snelson, accepted it at the track?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, sir; knowing that it was spoiled.
Mr. Costello. Did Mr. Snelson' have an opportunity to inspect the
spinach before he accepted it?
Mr. Stringfellow. That is right.
Mr. Costello. And the spinach was unloaded?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes; on Government trucks.
Mr. Costello. On Poston trucks?
Mr. Stringfellow. That is right.
Mr. Costello. And removed?
Mr. Stringfellow. Hauled out to feed to the hogs. That is what
I wanted to add.
When I left here I got 10 miles out and I broke down and I had
to call for a car to come and get me and while I was waiting, Mr. Joplin
came by in his truck, which is a 1-lon Chevrolet pick-up truck, and
it was loaded with spinach. He was haulmg it up to feed it to his
own hogs.
Mr. Steedman. Who is Mr. Joplin?
Mr. Stringfellow. He is a man here in town that has a hog ranch
up on the California side of the river.
Mr. Steedman. Does he buy garbage from the Poston relocation
center?
(No answer.)
Mr. Costello. Did he talk to you concerning that particular truck
load of spinach?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9387
Air. Stringfellow. No; but I saw the spinach go by and I know-
there is only one place you can get that much sphiach in Parker; it
had to come from Poston. It couldn't come from any place else.
Mr. CosTELLo. There is no spinach grown adjacent to Parker?
Mr. Stringfellow. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. \A'hat time in the afternoon was that?
Mr. Stringfellow. That was approximately 4:30 California time.
Mr. MuNDT. What time would that be in Arizona?
Mr. Stringfellow. 5:30.
Mr. MuNDT. I might say that we saw them dumping this same
spinach you speak of out on the desert and it wasn't fed to the hogs.
It may be he either shoveled it back in his truck and brought it here
inasmuch as they were simply dumping in ditches.
Mr. Stringfellow. Sawyer told us the orders were to take it out
and feed it to the hogs.
. Mr. Steelman. ^^ill you tell the committee what you saw in the
relocation center's cold-storage plant at Parker?
Mr. Stringfellow. Well, they have three large refrigerators there
fViid in one refrigerator there was bacon, pork loins, pork shoulders,
liver sausage, and other articles.
We went to the next refrigerator and it was full of roofing paper,
and we went to the next refrigerator, and it was all roofing paper and
the refrigeration system was on and it was down to 26°.
Mr. Costello. Is there any purpose in putting roofing paper in a
freezing temperature?
Mr. Stringfellow. Not that I can conceive of. I might add that
to my knowledge that roofing paper has been in the ice box now for
over a month.
Mr. MuNDT. Is there a shortage of storage space in the warehouses?
Do they have to store the paper in the ice box?
Mr. Stringfellow. I couldn't conceive of it. I saw plenty of
warehouse space there today.
Mr. Steedman. Had they turned off the refrigerating unit in those
two cold-storage rooms? And I am speaking of the room where the
roofing paper was stored?
Mr. Stringfellow. They could have turned it off, but they said
they had stacked the paper up against the switch and now they
couldn't reach it.
Mr. MuNDT. WTiat is the dimension of the refrigerators you are
speaking about?
Mr. Stringfellow. Oh, I couldn't tell you the size of them. They
are hard to estimate because we came in out of the sun and it was real
cold in there, but there was a full carload of meat in one refrigerator
and I don't thinlc it took up more than 15 or 20 percent of the space.
Mr. Costello. You think that each refrigerator might accommo-
date as much as five or six carloads?
Mr. Stringfellow. I would say so; yes; judging from the carload
that was in there.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't mean to tell us there were 10 carloads of
roofing paper in the refrigerators?
Mr. Strinfellow. I couldn't tell how much was in there because
all we saw was by the front door. Now, how far back it went, I
don't know.
9388 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have any questions, Mr. Eberharter?
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Stringfellow, you testified there were seven
cases of dynamite stolen?
Mr. Stringfellow. I did.
Mr. Eberharter. How many pounds of dynamite would that be?
Mr. Stringfellow. That would be 350 pounds of dynamite.
Mr. Eberharter. Three hundred and fifty pounds?
Mr. Stringfellow. That is right.
Mr. Eberharter. How much damage would 350 pounds do?
You see wc are not experts when it comes to dynamiting and I doubt
if any person who reads this testimony will bo experts on it, so I would
like to know how much damage, say, 10 pounds of dynamite would
do or 50 pounds or 100 pounds?
Mr. Stringfellow. Well, I will put it this way. A dam, regard-
less of what dam it is, is built to hold only six times the dead weight of
the water back of it. That is the tensile strength of a dam, and
with the proper placing of 350 pounds of dynamite Parker Dam could
be materially damaged.
Mr. Eberharter. And later on enough caps were stolen to set thig
dynamite off?
' Mr. Stringfellow. Three hundred and fifty pounds of dynamite
could be set off with only one cap.
Mr. Eberharter. With only one cap?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. How long would it take you to fix such a charge oi
dynamite? Could you do it in the course of one dark night?
Mr. Stringfellow. One night; yes.
Mr. Eberharter. One other line of questioning, Mr. Stringfellow:
Between the relocation center and Parker, is there any patrol of any
sort which could intercept or would intercept any Japs going along
the road?
Mr. Stringfellow. Not to my laiowledge there isn't. There are
only two officers in this vicinity and that is Mr. Bud Roberts and
Deputy Sheriff Washum.
Mr. Eberharter. My interest in that question is this: If an
evacuee at the camp got out of the bounds of the camp itself and then
made a cut through the desert to get to the road, if he got safely to the
road and got transportation he wouldn't have any difficulty whatever
in getting into Parker, is that correct?
Mr. Stringfellow. That is correct.
Mr. Eberharter. How far would he have to travel away from
where the military police are stationed, v,dio require passes to get in
and out of the camp? Do 3?^ou understand what I mean?
Mr. Stringfellow. He could make about a half mile circle.
Mr. Eberharter. And then he could get back to the road?
Mr. Stringfellow. To give him plenty of leeway he could make a
1 mile circle or a half mile circle. By doing that he could go around
that guard very, very easily.
Mr. Eberharter. Do the military police patrol the road between
Parker and the relocation center?
Mr. Stringfellow. I have never seen any on it.
Mr. CosTELLO. For the purpose of the record, no power is generated
at Parker Dam, is there?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ^ACTIVITIES 9389
Mr. Stringfellow. Tliore is; yes, sir. There arc four 25,000
K. V. A. units right now ni commercial use.
Mr. CosTELLO. And the power hnes extend in which direction
from the dam?
Mr. Stringfellow. At the present time they are all going to
Arizona. They are going to Pheonix, Tucson, Yuma, and Bagdad.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is, the power generated at the Parker Dam site
is used exclusiveh^ in Arizona?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, and any excess power is sent back to
Boulder and is used as
Mr. CosTELLO. That power is- developed for use in southern
California — the power at Boulder Dam?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. How far is Boulder Dam from Parker Dam?
Mr. STRiNGrELLOW\ Well, by stream, 155 miles; by road 185 miles.
Mr. Costello. And Boulder Dam is north of Parker Dam?
Mr. Stringfellow. Yes; upstream.
Mr. Eberharter. I would like to develop one other thing. If a
Japanese would evade the guards nearby the entrance to the reloca-
tion center and got onto one of the main roads and then started to
travel by automobile towards Parker Dam, is there any patrol which
would be likely to intercept him?
Mr. Stringfellow. They would not be intercepted until they
arrived at Parker Dam proper, which is gate No. 1 of the Bureau of
Reclamation, where there is only one man on duty.
Mr. Eberharter. So there are no miiitaiy police patroling the
highwaj^ between the relocation center and Parker Dam?
Mr. Stringfellow. Not to my knowledge there is not.
Mr. Costello. Are there any further questions?
Mr. Steedman. No .further questions; no, sir.
Mr. Costello. If there are no further questions, we thank you
very much, Mr. Stringfellow, for your testimony.
The committee will stand adjourned.
(Thereupon, at 7:30 p. m., the hearing adjourned.)
62626— 43— vol. 15 36
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
THURSDAY, JULY 1, 1943
House of Representatives,
SUBCOMIVIITTEE OF THE SpECIAL CoMMITTEE
TO Investigate Un-Amekican Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
Thfe subcommittee met ;it 10:30 a. m., in room 1301, House Office
Building, the Honorable John M. Costello, chairman of the subcom-
mittee, presiding.
Present : Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, Hon. Her-
man P. Eberharter, Hon. Noah M. Mason, Hon. Wirt Courtney, and
Hon. J. Parnell Thomas.
Also present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; J. B. Mat-
thews, director of research for the committee.
Mr. Costello. The committee will come to order. The purpose of
the hearing is to continue the investigation which has been con-
ducted on the Pacific coast. The Dies committee previously has in-
vestigated the activities of the Japanese Government and its agents
in this country, and this investigation is a continuance of that in-
vestigation conducted during the past 3 or 4 years.
Having conducted hearings on the west coast, we want to now call
on the administration and others acquainted with the activities in con-
nection with the Japanese relocation centers located in the western
section of the country.
Mr. Stripling, will you call the first witness.
Mr. Stripling. The first witness will be Mr. Paul Abe.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL YOZO ABE
*
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Costello. '\\\\\ you state your full name to the reporter?
Mr. Abe. Paul Yozo Abe.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Abe, will you state where you were born?
Mr. Abe. Seattle, Wash.
Mr, Stripling. What year?
Mr. Abe. April 11, 1914.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. AVill you give us the name of your wife ?
Mr, Abe. Ida Abe.
Mr. Stripl'ng. What is her full name?
Mr. Abe. What do you mean?
Mr. Stripling. What is her maiden name?
9391
9392 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Abe. Her maiden name is Nakamura .
Mr. Stripling. Where is your wife employed ?
Mr. Are. Civil Service Commission.
Mr. Stripling. What division of the Civil Service Commission ?
Mr. Abe, Classification.
Mr. Stripling. Do either you or your wife have any relatives living-
in Japan?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state for the record the names of
those relatives ?
Mr. Abe. My relatives, they are on my parents' side. I don't know,
because I haven't met them. As for my wife, she has a brother over
there, but other than that I don't know.
Mr. Stripling, Where does her brother live in Japan ?
Mr. Abe. I am sorry ; I don't know,
Mr, Stripling. Do you know whether or not he is in the Japanese
Army ?
Mr. Abe. Yes ; he is.
Mr, Stripling. He is in the Japanese Army?
Mr. Abe. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr, Abe, when did you come to Washington?
Mr. Abe. In September of 1936,
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive your college education in Wash-
ington ?
Mr. Abe, I have not received a degree yet.
Mr. Stripling. Where did 3'ou attend college in Washington?
Mr. Abe. George Washington University,
Mr. Stripling. Will you state your first employment ^after you ar-
rived in Washington ?
Hr. Abe. The Japanese Embassy.
Mr. Stripling. In what capacity ?
Mr. Abe. First I came here as chauffeur and then after a while T
was promoted to a clerk.
Mr. Stripling. Promoted to a clerk in what division of the Jap-
anese Embassy ?
Mr. Abe. Military attache.
Mr. Stripling. Military attache?
Mr. Abe. Yps, sir. ■
Mr. Stiupling. What were your specific duties as a clerk in the
office of the military attache?
Mr. Abe. General clerical work,
Mr. Stripling. General clerical work ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Were you at one time classified as a decoding clerk ?
Mr, Abe. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How long did your employment at the Embassy
last ?
Mr. Abe. I was employed there from 1936 to 1940, September.
Mr. Stripling. During the period that you were employed at the
Japanese Embassy, where did you reside in Washington ?
Mr. Abe. I resided at the following places: 2547 Waterside Drive,
180T California Street, 3220 Seventeenth Street, and 419 Marietta
Place NW.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9393
, Mr. Stripling. What is your present address ?
Mr. Abe. 1324 Fourteenth Street NW.
Mr, Stuipling. Apartment number?
Mr. Abe. Four.
Mr. Stripling. With whom did you reside at 2547 Waterside Drive?
Mr. Ape. T. Hara.
Mr. Stripling. Will you give his full name ?
Mr. Abe. The first name is Tamcnori and the last name is Hara.
Mr. Stripling. What was his position ?
Mr. Abe. Clerk.
Mr. Stripling. He was also a clerk ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr, Stpjpling. In the office of the military attache?
Mr. Abe. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Did you have any other roommate ?
Mr. Abe. Yes. There was a man named — I have forgotten his first
name, but his last name is Matsuzawa,
Mr. Stripling. Was he also employed as a clerk?
Mr. Abe. As a clerk.
Mr. Stripling. In the Embassy?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. SiRiPLiNG. You left the Embassy in 1940?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir,
Mr. Stripling. Why did you leave your employment with the Jap-
anese Embassy?
Mr. Aee. To continue my college education,
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive a scholarship from the Foreign Of-
fice of the Japanese Government through the Japanese Embassy ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did that scholarship specify any particular educa-
tion or institution, or did you have a choice.
Mr. Abe. I had my choice.
Mr. Stripling. And you chose George Washington University ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did you enroll in George Washington Uni-
versity?
Mr. Abe. I enrolled first as an evening student in 1937.
Mr. Stripling. But after you received this scholarship, when did
you enroll?
'. Mr. Abe. In the fall of 1910.
Mr. St rifling. You then left the Japanese Embassy ?
Mr, Ape. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you have any employment while you were at-
tending school at George Washington University?
Mr. Abe. In February of 1941 through December 1941.
Mr. Stripling. Where were you employed during that period?
Mr. Abe. Foreign newspaper correspondent, as secretary.
Mr. Stripling. Who were you secretary to?
Mr. Abe. Mr. Kauno.
Mr. Stripling. Give us his full name, please.
Mr. Abe. His first name is Kenji and the last name is Kauno.
Mr. Stripling. Kenji Kauno?
Mr, Abe. Yes, sir.
9394 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stripling. What was his position in this country? ]
Mr. Abe. i^s a foreign newspaper correspondent.
Mr. Stripling. For what newspaper?
Mr. Are. The official name is Tokyo Asahi Shimbun.
Mr. Stripling. Did you work for ]Mr. Kauno up until December 7,
1941?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. As secretary ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. During that period you also were attending George
Washington University on a scholarship which was furnished by the
foreign office?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir. If I wanted the thing renewed, I had to place
a renewal application in the spring of 1941, and that I did not, realiz-
ing the political situation of the country, of the two countries. So
I allowed the thing to lapse and, of course, I placed no renewal what-
• soever. I never placed any reports, so therefore they allowed it to
lapse, and they didn't ask me any questions, so I was entirely on my
own from there on. The reason why I took this position as secretary
to the correspondent was to help my funds.
Mr. Stripling. To help your funds?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you assist in the organization in Washington
of a group known as the Washington Young People's Club, or the
Seinen Kay Nisei Club?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When was that organized, Mr. Abe ?
Mr. Abe. Let me see. I don't recall the exact month, but it was in
the year 1941.
Mr. Stripling. In 1941 ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the first president of that organization ?
Mr. Abe. Koichi Inouye.
Mr. Stripling. Spell that, please.
Mr. Abe. The first name is Koichi, K-o-i-c-h-i, and the last name is
Inouye, I-n-o-u-y-e.
Mr. Stripling. He was the first president of that organization ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. What was your official position ?
Mr. Abe. Vice president.
Mr. Stripling. You were the vice president?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many members, about, did the Washington
Young People's Club have?
Mr. Abe. I would say approximately 15 or 20.
Mr. Stripling. Out of the 15 or 20 members, how many were em-
ployed at tlie Japanese Embassy ?
Mr. Abe. Well, I would say about two or three; legallv members.
Mr. Stripling. How many employees of the Japanese Embassy at-
tended the meetings of the organization, and who were active in it?
Mr. Abe. I am sorry; you have to repeat that.
Mr. Si-RiPLiNG. How many employees of the Japanese Embassy
attended the meetings of the organization and were active in its work?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9395
Mr. Are. I would say one.
Mr. S nuPLiNG. AVell, how about Mr. George Kobata ?
Mr. AnE. He was not a legally considered member.
Mr. Stri;lixg. He did attend meetings, however^
Mr. Are. Well, he came off and on, but that was to his own accord.
We could not exactly push him out.
]Mr. JMatthews. VVas he on the Embassy staff?
Mr. Abe. Yes; he was.
Mr. Stripling. What about Henry Onoto?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir ; he did come, and he paid.
]Mr. Stripling. He was a member ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir. That is what I remember.
Mr. Stripling. Are those two individuals now in Japan?
Mr. Ai'E. To mv information, I believe he is.
Mr. Stripling. Kobata and Onoto?
Mr. CosTELLo. One or both of them?
Mr. Abe. I beg your pardon?
Mr. CosTELLO. One or both of them?
Mr. Abe. I believe both of them are.
Mr. Stripling. How about Paul Otake?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Was he a member?
Mr. Abe. I am quite sure he was not.
Mr. Stripling. Did he attend the meetings ?
Mr. Abe. I remember and recall only one meeting he has attended.
Mr. Stripling. Was he an employee of the Japanese Embassy ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Was Tamenori Hara a member of the organization?
Mr. Abe. Definitely not.
Mr. Stripling. Did he attend the meetings ?
Mr. Abe. Ke came once on his own accord.
Mr. Stripling. How about Edward Usuda ?
Mr. Abe. No ; he was not legally a member of the club.
Mr. Stripling. He did participate in its activities, however?
Mr. Abe. I remember his attending one, possibly. He was in the
Army at the time.
Mr. Stripling. In the Army of the United States?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether his father was named Karl
Usuda ?
Mr. Abe. I am sorry; I don't know his first name.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether there was a Karl Usuda who
was employed in the office of the naval attache of the Japanese
Embassy ?
INIr. Abe. T don't recall any Karl Usuda.
Mr. Stripling. What was the purpose of the Washington Young
People's Club, Mr. Abe?
Mr. Ape. It was a social and cultural club for the second generation,
that is. Americans of Japanese ancestry.
3-Ii-. Stripling. How many meetings did you have? How often did
you meet?
Mr. Abe. About once a month.
Mr. Stripling. About once a month?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
9396 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Stripling. Who would you have as speakers at those meetings ?
Mr. Abe. Let me see. I will have to give you the names as much as
I can recall.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. Abe. Let me see. We had one representative from the N. Y. A,
who gave us a talk.
Mr. Stripling. That is the National Youth Administration?
Mr. Abe. Yes.
Mr, Stpjpling. Can you recall the approximate date when he ap-
peared before the club ?
Mr. Abe, No, I don't. I don't recall that at all.
Mr. Stripling. Did anyone from the Library of Congress ever
speak before your club?
Mr. Abe. Oh, yes. She was in the Oriental Division. It was Dr.
Sakanishi.
Mr. Stripling, How do you spell that?
Mr. Abe.' Her first name is Shio, S-H-I-0, and the last is Sakanishi,
S-a-k-a-n-i-s-h-i.
Mr, Stripling. Do you know where the Doctor is now ?
Mr. Abe, No, I don't.
Mr. Stripling. She is not in Washington, is she ?
Mr. Abe. I am sorry, I have never looked her up, so I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. Is it not a fact that she was interned at Pearl
Harbor ?
Mr. Abe. It is just my personal assumption that she may have been ;
I am not quite sure.
Mr. Stripling, Mr. Abe, were you at the Japanese Embassy on
December 6?
Mr. Abe. Wliat year?
Mr. Stripling, Nineteen forty-one, the day before Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Abe, I don't know, I often go there to look at the A. P. ticker.
Mr. Stripling, As a matter of fact, Mr, Abe, you were there on the
morning of Pearl Harbor, were you not ; on December 7 ?
Mr. Abe, I was there on the morning of Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Stripling. For what purpose did j-ou go to the Japanese Em-
bassy on the morning of Pearl Harbor ?
Mr. Abe, Well, the foreign correspondent wanted to have me at-
tend the press conference, which was to be held in the State Depart-
ment sometime in the afternoon, so I dropped over there, together
with Mr, Kauno, strictly like a newspaper correspondent would do,
to see if there was any news there, because it was an unusual time,
and from there we went on to the State Department.
Mr. Stripling, Was there any occurrence at the embassy on the
morning of December 7, any unusual activity or apprehension that
you detected?
Mr, Abe. Not that I noticed.
Mr. Stripling. You did not notice any?
Mr. Abe. No; in fact, things seemed quite calm that day. Of
course, I was just in the front office. I wouldn't know what was
back there.
Mr. Thomas, May I ask a question right there ?
Mr. CosTELLO. Surely.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9397
Mr. Thomas. I think it was mentioned when you terminated your
employment with the embassy.
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. But I would like to have it put in the record right
at this point, just when did you terminate your employment, the
date.
Mr. Abe. In September of 1940.
jSlr. Thomas. September of 1940?
jMr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thomas. That is all.
JMr. Stripling. Was Mr. Kauno, your subsequent employer, a regis-
tered foreign agent?
Mr. Abe. Not that I know of.
Mr. Stripling. He was not registered with the State Department
as an agent of the Japanese Government ?
Mr. Abe. He was registered at the State Department merely as a
foreign correspondent.
Mr. Stripling. Following Pearl Harbor, were you arrested by any
authority of the United States Government?
Mr. Abe. I was never arrested after Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever taken into custody by the Federal
Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. Abe. I was called in for investigation after Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Stripling. How long were you questioned ?
Mr. Abe. Oh, let me see. About 3 or 4 hours, I believe.
Mr. Stripling. Were you then released?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Striping. Since that time have you ever been questioned or
have you "ever given any statement to any intelligence unit of the
United Statts Government as to any knowledge that you might have
gained while employed at the Japanese Embassy ?
Mr. Abe. No, sir. The F. B. I. was the last place; in fact, they
wanted me to report for a few days, and then after that they told me
or assured me that I need not call in.
Mr. Stripling. Did you apply for a position with the F. B. I. ?
Mr. Aee. I placed an application ; j-es, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did joii also apply for a position in the Map Sec-
tion of Military Intelligence of the United States Army?
]\[r. Abe. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Stripling. Were you recommended favorably for that position ?
Mr. Abe. I do nt)t know about recommendations, sir.
Mr. Stripling. AVas your application approved b}' anyone in the
War Department : Did j'ou receive any communication from the War
Department advising you that your application had been approved?
Mr. Abe. Xo, sir.
Mr. Tho:mas. Are you sure of that ? Are you certain ?
Mr. Stripling. Did you not receive a letter on June .3 from ^lili-
tary Intelligence, Map Section, advising you that your application
had been approved by a certain official of Military Intelligence, but
had been turned down by a certain general because of your lack of
experience ?
Mr. Thomas. Remember, you are under oath.
9398 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEIS
Mr. Abe. Yes. I am trying to recall every word of that. I am
quite sure that this is the letter that I received. It said that they
didn't have any vacancy at the War Department, but they would
like to recommend me to the Army Map Sei'vice, so I placed my
application at the Army Map Service, but due to inexperience I was
rejected.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the witness be in-
structed to bring the letter in from the War Department.
Mr. CoSTELLO. Do you have that letter in your possession that you
received from the War Department?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you bring it to the committee and submit it to
Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Abe, have you applied for a position with the
Civil Service Commission?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir ; I have.
Mr. Stripling. Are you now under consideration for a position in
the Federal service ?
Mr. Abe. I would be, according to that examination I took.
Mr. Stripling. Have you heard from the Civil Service Commission
as to whether or not you passed the examination?
Mr. Abe. No, sir. Yes ; I received a rating, but I have not received
any other certification.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Abe, are you a member of the Japanese Ameri-
can Citizens League ?
• Mr. Abe. We placed a pledge as a member about the first part of
June, but we have paid no dues or have received no, what would you
say — well, approval as a member, so, legally I would say, I am not
a member yet.
Mr. Stripling. When you say "we," you mean you and Mrs. Abe?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mike Masaoka ?
Mr. Abe. I do.
Mr. Stripling. Is he the national secretary of the Japanese Ameri-
can Citizens League ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir ; he is.
Mr. Stripling. Was his office located at 1324 Fourteenth Street, the
headquarters of the Japanese American Citizens League in Washing-
ton, D.C.?
Mr. Abe. That was the branch headquarters, but when the secretary
resigned, actually I believe that that was not legally the office.
Mr. Stripling. But the office of the Japanese American Citizens
League was at 1324 Fourteenth Street for several months, was it not?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You also reside at 1324 Fourteenth Street, do you
not?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. On the third floor?
Mr. Abe. Third floor.
Mr. Stripling. There are two apartments on the third floor?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You and your wife reside in one, and the head-
quarters of the Japanese American Citizens League in Washington,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9399
their national office, which is located in Washington, D. C, is in the
adjoining apartment?
Air. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Striplino. You have had very close, contact with Mr. Mike
Masaoka and Mr. Joe Kanazawa, who is the eastern representative
of the Japanese American Citizens League ?
Mr. Abe. I just know Mike and Joe as a friend.
Mr. Stripling. Did you attend a meeting on May 22 at the Calvarj
Baptist Church, this year, which was called by the Japanese Ameri-
■can Citizens League ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did your wife also attend ?
Mr. Abe. Yes ; she did.
Mr. Stripling. Was the national president of the Japanese Ameri-
can Citizens League present — Mr. Kido ?
Mr. Abe. Yes; he was.
Mr. Stripling. How many people were present ?
Mr. Abe. Well, roughly, I would say about 30 or 35.
Mr. Stripling. Were they all Nisei ?
Mr. Abe. I believe there was one Caucasian present.
Mr. Stripling. One Caucasian?
Mr. Abe. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Who was that ?
Mr. Abe. I don't recall her name at all.
Mr. Costello. Were, the representatives of the press there?
Mr. Abe. Not to my Icnowledge, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Was the minister of the Calvery Baptist Church
present ?
Mr. Abe. I did not see them at that time.
Mr. Stripling. AVliat was the purpose of the meeting, as you
gathered from the proceedings ?
Mr. Abe. To my knowledge, I believe it was purely informational
as to the activities of the J. A. C. L., what they are trying to con-
tribute in utterances of all the principles of Americanism. And, first
of all, I believe they are contributing a service not only to the Japan-
ese people who are interned in there, but also to the American Gov-
ernment through a cooperation very graciously.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Abe, where are your mother and father at the
present time ?
Mr. Abe. In a relocation center, Tulelake, Calif.
Mr. Stripling. Where are your wife's parents ?
Mr. Abe. They are at the war relocation camp at Heart Mountain,
Wyo.
Mr. Stripling. Of the 35 people who were in attendance at the
meeting on May 22 at the Calvary Baptist Church, how many of the
group had recently been released from relocation centers, to the best
of your knowledge?
Mr. Abe. I would say about G5 percent of the group.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet the three evacuees who have recently
been efnployed by Secretary of Interior, Mr. Harold Ickes?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. They were present at the meeting ?
Mr. Abe. They were present.
9400 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stripling. Hew maii}^ of the released Nisei who were present
are presently employed by the War Relocation Authority, that you
met there. that night?
Mr. Abe. Oh, I believe I met about seven of them.
Mr. Stripling. Have you assisted Mr. Masaoka and the Japanese
American Citizens League in their work in attempting to get the
release of all of the Nisei and other Japanese from the relocation
centers ?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You have not ?
Mr. Abe. No.
Mr. Stripling. Are you familiar with their activities in that regard ?
Mr. Abe. Very generally.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you ever discussed it with Mr. Masaoka ?
Mr. Abe. I have never made any full discussion at all, sir.
Mr. Costello. Informally or in friendly gatherings, or any dis-
cussion ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. What happened to your organization that you were
vice president of, the Washington Young People's Club?
Mr. Abe. Well, in the first place, realizing, of course, after Pearl
Harbor, I had been working with a foreign newspaper correspondent
who was from an Axis country, I felt that it would be better to dis-
continue it, so I gave that voluntary statement to members of the
group, and if they wanted to continue, they could do so, but it was
handing in of my voluntary resignation for the good of the group.
Mr. Stripling. At that time you were president of the organization ?
Had you replaced Mr. Inouye as president ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. At what period did you become president?
Mr. Abe. Roughly, about the latter part of October to December.
Mr. MuNDT. Did the organization accept your resignation?
Mr. Abe. To the best of my knowledge, I am quite sure.
Mr. MuNDT. Did they ever notify you ?
Mr. Abe. No, it was never answered, but I am sure, verbally, they
understood it.
Mr. MuNDT. You have not attended any meeting since?
Mr. Abe. No, sir ; not that I recall.
Mr. Stripling. Any questions, Mr. Matthews?
Mr. Matthews. You had a scholarship at George Washington
University which was provided by the foreign office of the Tokyo
government. Did you do anything in return for this scholarship?
Mr. Ape. Definitely not.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever make any reports to the Tokyo gov-
ernment or any agency of the Tokyo government after you received
this scholarship ?
Mr. Abe. I sent them a letter of acceptance to the Embassy that
they gave me their scholarship.
Mr, Matthews. Was that the only communication you ever
addressed
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews (continuing). To the Embassy or to any agency of
the Tokyo government?
Mr. Abe. That is correct.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9401
Mr. Matthews. Were you asked, when you received this scholar-
ship, to make reports to any aijency of the Tokyo government?
^Ir. Ar.E. No, sir. I was under no obligation.
Mr. JNIatthews. Was there any suggestion made to you that you
should report on various matters to any agency of the Tok3-o govern-
ment ?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. You stated that you did not renew your applica-
tion for this scholarship in the spring of 1941 because you realized
the situation existing between the two countries. That was some 6 or
7 months, at least, before Pearl Harbor, was it not?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. What do 3'ou mean by "realized the situation"?
Mr. Abe. Well, I realized the situation was getting very tense, and
as a matter of my particular principles it would be entirely contrary
to what would be the result if I had continued in the capacity that
I did.
Mr. Matthews. What month would you normally have renewed
your application for that scholarship?
Mr. Abe. I would say about April or May.
Mr. Matthews. And in April or May of 1941, you realized that
there was a situation existing between the United States and Japan
which made it inadvisable for you to accept this scholarship from
the foreign office?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. Did that realization come to ycu in whole or in part
as the result of your employment at the Japanese Embassy?
Mr. Abe. I would say "Yes."
Mr. Matthews. That is, you learned things as an employee of the
Japanese Embassy which indicated to ycu that the Japanese Govern-
ment had liostile intentions toward the United States?
Mr. Abe. No ; I would not put it as strong as all that. I feel that
It is important in understanding, common sense, that things were not
exactlv, well, favorable enough for me to accept this scholarship and
then feel entirely conscience free.
Mr. Matthews. Do you mean that in common conversation arcund
the Embassy there was an assumption that war would one day, before
many months, break out between the United States and Japan?
Mr. Abe. Well, I would not put it as strongly as all that. But I
would say that the feeling was enough, aroused me enough, to con-
vince me that probably there was a feeling of uncertainty between
the two countries.
Mr. Mattht^ws. Now, this scholarship would have run only 1 more
year, up until the spring of 1942. You mean that you anticipated
in that period there might occur something in the relationships be-
tween the two countries that would make it inadvisable for you to
have a scholarship?
Mr. Abe. Personallv, I felt that wav. I imagine vou would call it
intuition.
Mr. Matthews. But that intuition, you say, was derived from your
experience at the Embassy?
Mr. Abe. Well. I would say that.
]Mr. CosTEi Lo. No one at the Embassy suggested you drop the schol-
arship, did they ?
9402 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Abe, Oh, definitely not. It was all on my own.
Mr. CosTELLo. Why were you given the scholarship originally?
Mr. Abe. Well, that I don't know.
Mr. Costello. In previous years did the Japanese Embassy give a.
number of scholarships?
Mr. Aee. No ; not that I know of.
Mr. CosiT.LLo. Was it merely because you were employed there at
the Embassy that you were signed out ?
Mr. Abe. I am afraid I don't know the exact background reasons
for me being selected.
Mr. Costeixo. You say it was not the custom, though, of the Em-
bassy to grant scholarships generally ?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. MuKDT. Did you apply for the scholarship in the first in-
stance ?
Mr, Abe. I beg your pardon.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you apply for the scholarship in the first in-
stance ; when j^ou first received it ?
Mr. Abe. I filed for it ; yes, sir, when I heard about that.
Mr. MuNDT, With the Embassy ?
Mr, Abe, Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Matthews, Did you ever state to anyone that you thought the
South Pacific should be controlled by an Asiatic power which had
the means to do it, and that Japan was the only Asiatic power which
had such means ?
Mr, Abe, No ; I don't recall that at all, sir.
Mr, JVIatthews. Do you recall a conversation of that tenor that you
had with anyone early in 1941 ?
Mr, Abe. "No; I don't,
JSIr, Matthew^s, Was that your view early in 1941 ? ,
Mr. Abe, No, sir; you see, my particular measure and interest in
school is foreign trade, and I have always strived to make a personal
understanding between the two countries, if at all, and in the sense
that I wanted to do what I could, if possible, in my own way while
I was working there. And, of course, when I quit the place I felt,
in the spring of 1941, the tension was growing awfully bad, so when
I heard about Kurusu coming over here I felt there would be some
hope, at least, in the way of terminating these relations which would
tend to become war,
Mr, Matthews. Were you ever at any time in charge of the social
affairs of the Japanese Embass^^?
Mr. Abe. What do you mean, social affairs?
Mr. ISIatthews. Well, the Japanese Embassy did have social af-
f air<, did it not ; receptions and social relations ?
Mr. Abe. No; definitely not. They had women clerks to handle
all that.
Mr. Matthews, During the past year have you had in your pos-
session a publication entitled "Pilot Rules for Certain Inland Waters
of the Atlantic and Pacific Coasts and of the Coast of the Gulf of
Mexico"?
Mr. Abe. I never heard of it.
jVIr. jNIatthews. During the past 2 years have you had in youi
possession, in your apartment, such a publication ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITLEiS 9403
;Mr. Abe. I never heard of it.
Mr. Matthews. Your answer is "No"?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Maithews. That you did not have it in your possession?
Mr. Abe. No.
]Mr. Mattheavs. Did you have in your possession durino; the past 2
years, at any time, in your apartment, a publication entitled "Burjeau
of INIarine Navigation. Functions and Activities of the Bureau of
Marine Inspection and Navigation"?
Mv. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. ^Matthews. Have you ever seen those publications?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
]Mr. INIatthews. You have been living at 1324 Fourteenth Street,,
have you not?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Matthews. In apartment 5? •
ISIr. Abe. Apartment 4.
Mv. Matthews. Apartment 4?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And in apartment 5 did you have any acquaint-
ances?
Mr. Abe. Mr. and Mrs. Kanazawa.
Mr. INIAtthews. Was apartment 5 considered the headquarters of
the Japanese American Citizens League recently ?
Mr. Abe. Well, I imagine it was until Mr. Kanazawa went into
the Army.
Mr. ISIatthews. Did you recently go frorii your apartment. No. 4,
into apartment 5, to witness formally the turning over of the records
of the Japanese American Citizens League to the agents of any
official body?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Who invited you to witness tine turning over of
these records?
My. Abe. Mrs. Kanazawa.
Mr. ISIatthews. Did your wife accompany you to act as a witness
also in that capacity ?
;Mr. xVbe. Yes. sir.
Mr. ISIatthews. AVere these records, to your knowledge, turned over
under a subpena issued by the Special Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mr. Abe. I am quite sure, sir.
Mr. ISIatthews. Have you in the past 24 hours" conferred with any-
one concerning vour testimony before this committee this morning?
Mr. Abe. Conferred in the sense of asking advice, do you mean ?
ISIr. ISIatthews. Yes.
, Mr. Abe. No, sir,
Mr. Maithews. Have you been proffered any advice concerning your
testimony before this committee this morning?
Mr. Abe. I think I have my own connnon sense to bank on that,,
sir.
Mr. Costeixo. Has your common sense had any reinforcements,
from any other source ?
ISIr. Abe. I have had moral support, sir.
Mr. Muxdt. From whom?
9404 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Abe. "Well, in the sense of my wife, I would say.
Mr. MuNDT. Anyone else ?
Mr. Abe.' Well, iio. We have just talked it over ; nothing particular
to rail it advice.
Mr. Matthews. I would like to change one word in the question,
Congressman. I asked him if he conferred with anyone. That seems
to be the hitch. I would like to ask him if he has discussed his testi-
mony or appearance before the committee this morning with anyone
during the past 24 hours.
Mr. Abe. I have talked it over with Mr. and Mrs. Kanazawa.
Mr. Matthews. Yes.
Mr. Abe. As a matter of natural inclination of the individual to talk
over anything.
Mr. Matthew^s. You have advised with Mr. and Mrs. Kanazawa on
other occasions, have you not, concerning matters that pertain to Jap-
anese in this country ?
Mr, Abe. Yes, sir ; as friends.
Mr. Matthews. Or as citizens of Japanese ancestry?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir ; as friends.
Mr. Matthews. Did you discuss your appearance before this com-
mittee this morning with anyone else ?
Mr. Abe. This morning with Mr. Slocum.
Mr. Matthews. Is that Mr. Tokutaro Slocum ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. With anyone else?
Mr. Abe. No. That would be the only persons I would confer
with.
Mr. Matthews. You have not discussed it with any other persons
than those three ?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. During the past 24 hours? Let us not have a mis-
take about this.
Mr. Abe. No. Last night was just those three persons, Mr. and Mrs.
Kanazawa and Mr. Slocum.
Mr. Mattttews. You discussed it with Mr. Slocum last night also?
Mr. Abe. Oh, I just talked with him.
Mr. Matthews. And also this morning?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. Well, I understood you to say that you had this
morning. Where were you last night?
Mr. Abe. At 1324 Fourteenth Street.
Mr. Matthews. Were in your own apartment and also in apart-
ment 5?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Sometime during the evening?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Were other persons, other than the three you havd
named, present in your apartment or in apartment 5 last night?
Mr. Abe. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. Matthews. To your knowledge, no?
Mr. Abe. I retired early.
Mr. Matthews. You did not see anyone ?
Mr. Abe. No.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9405
Mr. ^Iaitiiews. How long have you known Mike Masaoka?
Mr. Ahe. I would say api)r(>xiniately a year when I first met him;
a year ago when I first met him.
']Mr. Matthews. Where did you meet him?
^Ir. Abe. I met him in New York City,
Mr. Matthews. Under what circumstances did you meet him in
New York City?
Mr. Abe. I was working as secretary to a minister in New York.
]SIr. ^Matthews. You have seen him off and on since you first met
him apjiroximately a year ago?
Mv. Abe. Very infrequently.
Mr. Matthews. You have seen him in Washington ?
]Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
]\lr. ^Matthews. How long have you known Joe Tooru Kanazawa?
Mr. Abe. Let me see. Siiice about the early part of 1941, 1 believe.
Mr. Matthews. A little more than 2 years?
]Mr. Abe. A little more than 2 years.
jVlr. ]\Iatthews. And you have conferred or met him from time to
time ?
Mr. Abe. I have.
Mr. Matthews. Did you, when you worked with Kenji Kauno,
who was representative in this country of Tokyo Asahi, make any
reports to ^Ir. Terasaki, first secretary of the Japanese Embassy?
Mr. Abe. Not that I recall, sir.
]\Ir. ^Matthews. Well, that employment has been rather recent, and
if you made reports to the first secretary of the Japanese Embassy
since you left the Embassy, you would certaiiily recall it, would you
not?
Mr. Abe. Surely. Well, I would say "No."
Mr. IVIatthews. Do you know whether or not Kenji Kauno, your
employer, made regular reports to Mr. Terasaki, first secretary to the
Japanese Embassy?
Mr. Abe. I don't know if he made any or not.
Mr. MuxDT. Did you have any verbal conversations with the first
secretary since your employment with the Japanese newspaper?
Mr. Abe. I am sure he has had verbal conversations.
Mr, MuNDT. Have you had ?
Mr. Abe. Nothing except very impersonal things.
ISIr. MuNDT. What do you mean by "impersonal things" ?
Mr. Ape. Well, he was quite a golfer and I like golf pretty bad,
too. so we talked about it.
Mr. ]\IuxDT. You played golf together a little bit, did you?
Mr. Abe, Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. Eight along, until Pearl Harbor?
Mr. Abe. Well, no ; during the fair weather days.
]Mr. MuxDT. In fair weather, after Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
^Ir, ISIatthews. Was it your understanding that ^Tr. Terasaki was
the chief intelligence officer of the Japanese Government in the United
States?
Mr, Abe. I didn't know that, sir.
]Mr. ^Matthews. Have you 'ever heard that around the Embassy?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
62626 — 43 — vol. 15 37
9406 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Are you a map expert or specialist of any kind,
in maps or topography ?
Mr. Abe. N o, sir. I was turned down for inexperience by the Army
Map Service.
Mr. MATniEws. Did you consider yourself a map specialist ?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you at any time before Pearl Harbor request
from the Department of the Interior any maps or geodetic surveys
or any material of that general nature?
Mr. Aee. I am sorry; I didn't hear the first part, sir.
Mr. Matthews, I asked you if at any time before Pearl Harbor
you requested from the Department of the Interior of the United
States Government any maps or geodetic surveys or other material
of that character.
Mr. Abe. I did ask them for bulletins, which was back in 1936
or 1937, I believe.
Mr. Matthews. What bulletins were they?
Mr. Abe. I imagine it was the bulletins of that office.
Mr. Mattheavs. Of the Geodetic Survey?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. The office of the Department of the Interior?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ask for those on behalf of the Japanese
Embassy or for your own personal use?
Mr. Abe, Well, I believe I asked for the office where I was work-
ing.
Mr. Matthews. On behalf of the Embassy?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. That is, the military attache?
INIr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. Was your last request for such material as long
ago as 1936?
Mr. Abe. About 1936 or 1937, sir.
Mr, Matthews. You did not ask subsequently for that kind of
material ?
]Mr. Abe. No, sir; you can find all that out for the reason that the
address was in the address that I had wlien I lived there in 1936
and 1937.
]Mr. Matthews. You were on their regular mailing list at 2547
Waterside Drive, were you not?
Mr. Abe. Yes ; they kept on sending me bulletins.
Mr. Matthews. That was the official residence of the Japanese Em-
bassy, or one of the official residences?
]Mr. Ape. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know how late they continued to send those
bulletins and descriptions of maps to your address? When was the
last time that any such bulletins were forwarded to you?
Mr. Abe. I guess until about 1940, I believe.
Mr. Stripling. 1940?
Mr. Abe. The latter part of 1940.
Mr. Stripling. You were residing there in 1940, were you not?
Mr. Abe. No; I moved away from fhere about 1939, in August.
The reason why I recall that is the fact that they had it cancelled
and forwarded to the other address.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9407
INIr. Stripling. During your 4 years at the office of the military
attache of tlie Japanese Embassy, did you not have access or gain
information which would be of assistance to this Government after
Pearl Harbot, and will you explain to the committee why you never
volunteered to anj^ of our intelligence services the information that
you might have had?
Mr. Abe. Because I don't think I am regarded anything that was
so pertinent as all that.
INIr. Stripling. Well, you told me when I served the subpena on
you on June 11 that j'ou were a decoding clerk in the office of the
military attache. This morning you denied it. But, I have several
witnesses who heard 3^011 make the statement.
Mr. Abe. Yes; but as it is, I dichi't understand the message. If
I did
Mr. Stripijng. You "did not understand the message?
Mr. Abe. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You worked there 4 years but you did not know
what they meant ?
Mr. Abe. No; they were very careful about that.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, during your entire 4 years there
you did not obtain any information which you felt would be of any
use to our militar}- or naval authorities?
Mr. Abe. Xo ; I am quite sure I didn't.
Mr. Stripling. You did not ?
Mr. Abe. Xo.
Mr. CosTFLLo. Coming back to your scholarship again. You say
you were employed there as a decoding clerk.
Mr. Abe. Xo, sir; that is a mistake which I noticed in the paper,
sir. You see, in the clerical capacity, well, I did some decoding, but
it is a matter of decoding which anybody could do without any
understanding of the original contents.
Mr. CosTEixo. What did you have, just a form code by which you
transposed words and changed them into Japanese or Engli-sh?
Mr. Abe. Xo ; it was just alphabetical letters.
Mr. CosTELLO. What were your duties then in connection with that;
actually transcribing the message?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. What did you do?
Mr. Abe. AVell, in code, I imagine anybody familiar with it to the
extent that certain letters must be put together; in other words, they
would know the message contents, whereas we just merely do the
mechanical part of it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Wiat do you mean by "mechanical part of it"?
You would take out the selected letters out of the word and put them
together and then j)ass that message on?
Mr. Abe. Yes. And of those letters I would not have any under-
standing whatsoever.
Mr. CosTELLO. You did not know how to interpret the words after
you put these particular letters together?
Mr. Abe. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. Were those messages from Japan ?
Mr. Abe. From and to.
9408 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. You never had any knowledge or information as to
the code being used or how to read the messages themselves?
Mr. Abe. No ; they didn't show us how.
Mr. CosTELi.o. Well, I am asking you a question. Are you employed
at the present time ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Wliere?
Mr. Abe. George Washington University.
Mr. CosTELLo. What is your occupation there ?
Mr. Abe. Clerk.
Mr. Costello. What kind of work do you do ?
Mr. Abe. Well, recording clerk, I imagine you would call it.
]Mr. Costello. Wliat office ?
Mr. Abe. In the registrar's office.
Mr. Costello. In the registrar's office ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. All right.
INIr. Stripling. Mr. Abe, coming back to your scholarship, you
stated that you were majoring in foreign trade.
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Was not one of the stipulations for that scholarship
that you would report to theEmbassy on the attitude existing between
the officials of the United States Government and the Japanese offi-
cials, and did you not state several weeks ago that the reason you
would not take the renewal of the scholarship was the fear that if you
continued to make these reports that the F. B. I. might get them,
and that is the reason you turned down your scholarship ?
Mr, Abe. No.
Mr. Stripling. You are sure you did not make that statement?
Mr. Abe. No.
Mr. Stripling. And you made no reports of any kind to the Japa-
nese Embassy in any form on foreign trade or foreign relations?
Mr. Abe. Just my ordinary letter, the report to them that I sub-
mitted as a matter which you would call acceptance and my particular
understanding of what I knew about foreign trade, interpreted in the
sense of submitting a report of acceptance to him.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a follower of the Buddhist religion ?
Mr. Abe. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a follower of the Buddhist religion?
Mr. Abe. No.
Mr. Matthews. Were you brought up as a Buddhist ?
Mr. Abe. No ; I was not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you belong to any Buddhist organization?
Mr. Abe. I Avas a member of a baseball team which was what you
would call a Buddhist group.
Mr. Stripling. What was the name of the organization ?
Mr. Abe. Let me see. Young People's Buddhist Group, I would
say.
Mr. Stripling. That is all.
Mr. Matthews. I would like to go back to this question of report-
ing to the Japanese Embassy. A moment ago I thought I noted some
hesitancy on your part as to whether or not you had or had not
reported. You said: "Well, just the normal report." Now, what
did you mean by that?
"UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9409
Mr. Abe. Well, it was a report confirming to them that I received
the scholarship money.
Mr. ^Maithews. Well, did you discuss foreign-trade relations be-
tween Japan and the United States in that acceptance?
Mr. Abe. Well, yes ; I did.
Mr. Matthews. How many pages were there, approximately, if you
do not remember the exact number, in this communication ?
Mr. Abe. I don't remember exactly ; about four pages or so, I guess.
Mr. ISIatthews. Well, now, when I questioned you sometime ago you
said you did nothing but communicate your acceptance of the scholar-
ship.
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matihews. Well, it would not take^four pages to accept a
scholarship, would it?
Mr. Abe. Well, it is merely expressing everything in the sense of
accepting a letter, accepting the scholarship, and at the same tune
expressing my desire to get into foreign trade; to consider it as my
future career.
Mr. MATTHE^vs. How long after the scholarship was granted did
you write that communication to the Embassy?
Mr. Abe. Let me see. 1 imagine it was between May and Septem-
ber of 1940.
Mr. Matthews. When was the scholarship granted?
Mr. Abe. About May of 1940.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. And you think it may have been as late as Sep-
tember that you wrote this acceptance ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. INIatthews. And in this acceptance you had four pages which
largely covered the field of foreign relations; is that right?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And then when did you make the next acceptance
of this scholarship to the Embassy? You wrote a subsequent ac-
ceptance also, did you not?
]\fr. Abe. No, sir. No, sir; that was the one that I didn't allow to
be renewed, in the spring of 1941.
Mr. jMatthews. Now, the stipulation was that you were to makei
at least two reports a year to the Embassy ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
IMr. IVIatthews. That is correct?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. And yet you stated under oath when I examined
3'ou not less than three or four times that there Avas absolutely no stip-
ulation of any kind connected with the scholarship. Now, you say
there was.
Mr. Abe. Well, I am sorry. I misunderstood you on that point.
Mr. Mattheavs. Well, I asked the question several times to be sure
that there could be no misunderstanding. The record, of course, will
speak for itself.
Mr. Abe. Yes.
IMr. Mattpeews. But now you say there was a stipulation that you
should make at least two reports a year to the Embassy.
Mr. Abe. I recall that now, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Ycu recall that now ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
9410 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. You. say you applied for the scholarship?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir ; when I heard about that.
Mr. CosTELLo. AVhat did you hear about it ?
Mr. Abe. .That there was a scholarship available, and I had per-
sonal ambitions of trying or of retiring from that office in the fall so
that I could finish my education. Well, I thought that would help
my financial reserve, so I applied for it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Who informed you of the existence of this scholar-
s.hip ?
Mr. Abe. The secretary of the Japanese Christian Students Associa-
tion of New York City.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did tfiey handle the scholarship or did the Em-
bassy handle it directly?
Mr. Abe. I imagine he heard it from the consulate and he informed
me of that.
Mr. CosTELLO. Wlio financed the scholarship itself; the Embassy?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir; the Embassy did.
Mr. Costello. Do you know whether they had any other scholar-
sliips at all, in existence, or not?
Mr. Abe. No ; I don't.
Mr. Costello. That is all.
Mr. Eberharter. Did I understand correctly that you only made
one report since you were granted the scholarship ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Is that in typewriting?
Mr. Abe. I am sorry. I can't hear you.
Mr. Eberharter. Was it a typewritten report or longhand?
Mr. Abe. It was typewritten.
Mr. Eberharter. It was typewritten?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Did you make a carbon copy of it ?
Mr. Abe. No; I don't think I did. I don't think I did.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, you have had a good deal of experience as
a clerk ; have you not ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Is it not your usual practice to make a carbon
copy of any letter that you write ?
Mr. Abe. Well, if I did have any copy I must have thrown every-
thing away. ,
Mr. Eberharter. Answer that question. Is it ftot your usual prac-
tice to make a carbon copy of any letter that you write ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. You considered that an important letter; did you
not ?
Mr. Abe. Well, yes ; important at that time.
Mr. Eberharter. It was important to you yourself; was it not?
Mr. Abe. Yes,. sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Now you state you did not make a carbon copy.
Mr. Abe. I don't recall, sir, exactly.
Mr. Eberharter. You do not know whether you did or not ?
Mr. Abe. Yes. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. Eberharter. In your ordinary practice you would make a
carbon copy; would you not?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9411
]Mr. Abe. Yes, sir ; I would.
Mr. Eberharter. Did 3-011 have any reason for not making a carbon
coDy?
Mr. Abe. Xo; I don't think sO.
]Mr. Eberharter. Of anything so important as that?
Mr. Abe. I don't think so. Let me recall now. I believe I did
make a carbon copy of it. I believe I did.
Mr. Eberharter. And do you have that copy in your possession any
place ?
Mr. Abe. No ; I am afraid I threw up everything when I went to
New York.
Mr. Eberharter. That was when?
Mr. Abe. Oh, in February 1942.
IVIr. Eberharter. February 1942?
Mr. Abe. That is right.
JSIr. Eberharter. You destroyed all your files at that time ?
Mr. Abe. Well. I practically gave away a lot of things.
Mr. Eberharter. You did what? Speak up.
Mr. Abe. I gave away a lot of things and threw away a lot of
things which I felt was irrelevant because I had so many useless
things around.
Mr. Eberharter. Was there anything in this report, in the light of
what has since happened, that you would not desire the American
Government or the American people to know ?
Mr. Abe. No. sir; I wouldn't mind it. If I had a copy, I would
show it to you right now.
Mr. Eberharter. Did you not think in February 1942 that you
should have considered any report that you made to be of sufficient
importance to preserve a copy of ; a carbon copy of ?
Mr. Abe. Yes; if it was important I would keep it.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, the very fact that you considered it of no
importance should have been of importance to you to keep it, to
show there was no importance attached to the report. You see what
I mean ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Eberharter. And you are certain now that there was nothing
in this report that you would not be willing to have made public? ■
Mr. Abe. No ; I would not mind showing it to you right now if I
had it with me. I will be willing to bring it; in fact, some of the
letters that ]\Ir. Stripling just mentioned now, I will be glad to bring
it or any other records that you want. I will be ^lad to cooperate
with you by trying to make it as constructive as possible; in fact, that
is what I want more than anything else, is the truth in this whole
thing.
Mr. Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLo. Did I understand you to say that your wife is
employed by Civil Service?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say she is in the Classification Division ?
]Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. What are her duties there?
Mr. Abe. Clerical, in the Classification Division. That is all I
know.
Mr. CosTELiiO. You do not know what type of work she is doing?
Mr. Abe. I imagine it is personnel work.
9412 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEtS
Mr. CosTELLO. Does she collect papers or mark papers or does she
handle names or files, or what not ?
Mr. Abe. From what I understand, she just writes letters, and so
forth. I never asked her any details in the matter.
Mr. CosTELLO. She is simply doing stenographic work ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir; I imagine stenographic and clerical work.
Mr. CosTELLO. She has nothing to do with the fixing up of the lists
of persons taking the civil-service examination or arranging lists of
those who are being graded for positions ?
Mr. Abe. I am sorry ; I don't know, sir.
Mr. Costello. You do not know whether she does or not ?
Mr. Abe. No.
Mr. Costello. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. What is your wife's salary in the Civil Service Com-
mission ?
Mr. Abe. Eighteen hundred.
Mr. MuNDT. What is the value of the scholarship that you received
from the Japanese Embassy ?
Mr. Abe. About $115.
Mr. MuNDT. $115?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. For a quarter or the term of the year ?
Mr. Abe. For 1 year.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Matthews. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. Will you instruct the witness he is still under
subpena, Mr. Chairman, until he furnishes the letter?
Mr. Costello. Will you return to Mr. Stripling a copy of the letter
you have from the War Department ?
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. You are subject to the subpena until that is returned.
Mr. Abe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. That is all.
(Witness excused.)
(The letter referred to above reads as follows :)
War Department. Army Map Service,
Corps of Engine25r.s. United States Army,
Washington, D. C, June 3, 1943.
Mr. Paul C. Abe,
Waahmr/ton, D. C.
Dear Sib: This service recommended your appointment to Col. Kai E. Ras-
mussen of tlie Military Intelligency Language School with the request that your
appointment be authorized. Colonel Rasmussen returned your application and
states that he interviewed you and it is not believed that you were sufficiently
linguistically qualified for the work performed by the Army Map Service. He
based his decision on the fact that you lacked a comprehensive knowledge of
geograi hical Japanese.
At the present time, the Army Map Service has filled all of the vacancies for
this position. However, your application will be retained in our file, and if
there is a vacancy in the future which you might be qualified for, you will be
contact(?d and requested to report for duty.
Very truly yours,
T. L. Sharkey,
Chief Administrative Assistant.
Mr. Costello. Call your next witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. I will call Mr. Slocum.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES * 9413
TESTIMONY OF TOKUTAHO NISHIMURA SLOCUM
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLo. State your full name to the reporter.
Mr. Slocum. My name is Tokutaro Nishimura Slocum. I am
known as Tokie Slocum or Jap Slocum.
]\Ir. ISIattheavs. Where were you born?
Mr. Slocum. I was born in Japan, sir.
Mv. Matthews. Where, what part of Japan ?
Mr. Slocum. A little village called Oyama, Japan, sir.
jSlr. ISIatthews. When?
Mr. Slocum. 1895, sir.
IVlr. Matthews. When did you come to the United States ?
INlr. Slocum. I think it was around April 1904, sir.
Mr. Matthews. You were about 9 years old, were you, at the time ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthew^s. Did you come with your parents ? ■
Mr. Slocum. I came with my mother and brother and sister, sir;
my father having migrated to the United States around 1*894 or there-
abouts.
Mr. Matthews. You had not seen your father, then ?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir; not since the time he left Japan, up to the
time he sent for us.
Mr. JNIattheavs. Well, he had been living in Japan before you
■were born, according to the dates I have. Did he leave Japan before
you were born ?
Mr. Slocum. Oh, no, sir.
Mr. Matthews. You said he left Japan in 1894, if I understood
the date right.
Mr. Slocum. We came to this country around, let me see, 1904. He
must have come around 1895.
]\Ir. ^Matthews. Which was the year you were born.
Mr. Slocum. Yes.
Mr. ]Mattheavs. All right.
Mr. Slocum. No, no; that couldn't be so, because I came in 1904
and father came to this country — I think he had been here about
5 years, I think, 5 or 6 years. ,
Mr. JNIattheavs. Then he must have come around 1899 or 1900. At
any rate, that is all hearsay. You do not recall when he departed,
I suppose.
Mr. Slocum. No.
^Ir. Matthews. The time he left.
Mr. Slocum. I remember the time he departed; oh, j-es, sir.
Mr. Matthew^s. You do?
Mr. Slocum. Because we all cried. You got me over a barrel there,
Mister. Figures don't lie.
Mr. jNIatthews. Where did you enter the United States ?
Mr. Slocum. The Empress of Imlia was the name of the Ca-
nadian Pacific boat that we came on, and we landed at Vancouver,
and the port of entry was Seattle, Wash., sir.
Mr. Matthews. Where did you and your parents settle the first
year after you came to the United States?
Mr. Slocum. A little town called Manitou, N. Dak.
Mr. Matthews. What was your father's occupation ?
9414 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS
Mr. Slocum. Well, he was working- on a railroad and then farm-
ing at the same time, because he had already taken out a homestead,
and he was plowing it up as much as his finances avouIcI enable him
to, so he did work on the railroad and we lived on a homestead.
Mr. Matthews. How long did you live with your parents in
Manitou?
Mr. Slocum. Oh, about a year and a half.
Mr. Matthews. Why did you leave home?
Mr. Slocum. Well, at that time North Dakota was pretty interior
country, sort of a pioneering State, and schools Avere few and far
between — Dad wanted me to have an education and there weren't any
schools around there, so he thought I should go to the nearest big^
town and acquire some education and to see if I could better myselL
T]i!it is the reason I left.
Mr. Matthews. You were a boy of about 11, were you ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Where did you go when you went away at your
father's suggestion to get an education ?
Mr. Slocum. Father had a Japanese friend working in the Great
Northern roundhouse in the city called Minot, N. Dak. It was
pioneered within about 50 miles away from our place and he thought
he could get me a job as sort of an errand boy or bottle washer in
Mr. Slocum's drug store.
Mr. Matthews. So that you could go to school. after work?
Mr. Slocum. To work my way through ; yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did he get you a job in Mr. Slocum's drug store?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; he got me a job as bottle washer and helper
and janitor.
Mr. Matthews. After you took that job, then eventually you went
to school in Minot ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. Dad said, "You are going to school now."
Mr. Matthews. When you say "Dad" you mean Mr. Slocum now ;
do you not ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; I do now, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And when you went to school Mr. Slocum told you
to call yourself what?
Mr. Slocum. Well, Dad said^."Your name Tokutaro Nishimura
Slocum is too long, so from now on you ai'e going to be my boy. I
am going to call you Tokie Slocum."
And I said, "Very good, sir."
So that is how I became Tokie Slocum. '
Mr. ]\Iatthews. So you enrolled for the convenience of the
teacher
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs (continuing). As Tokie Slocum?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. Did you finish grammar school in Minot?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; I did, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. Did you finish high school ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; I did, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. Where did you go when you finished high school?
Mr. Slocum. I went to the University of Minnesota, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. Was it 5'Our purpose to go through college?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9415
Mr. Slocum. Well, I thouiiht I ATantcd to be a lawyer, and I thought
all the lawyers were big shots aiul they made iiKniey. so I thouglit I
would be a lawyer, too. I didn't realize at that time that in order to
be a lawyer you have to be a citizen. I thought I was a citizen, because
I greAv up Avitli Irisli boys and all sorts of Caucasian boys, and I
thought I was a citizen, too, and I thought I wanted to be a. lawyer,
and I was going to study law, sir.
]Mr. Matthews. How long were you at the University of Minne-
sota ?
Mr. Slocum, One year, sir.
Mr. Matthe\vs, Why did you stop your education at that point?
IMr. Slocum. Well, you know, the war came, and all my boyhood
friends says, "Well, I am going to join the Marines, and you, too,
Tokie."
And I says, "O. K. I go."
I tried to get in the Marines and they told me I was a Jap, so they
didn't want me.
I said, ''Well, by God, I am going to get in the Army somehow."
And I quit school and came back and dad said, "What is the matter,
son?"
I said, "Well, I tried to get in the Army, Dad, but they won't take
me."
He says, "Well, if you want to get in the Army why do you want
to quit school and get in the Army?"
Well, I said, "Dad, all my boj'hood friends went, and I feel kind
of funny if I don't do as the other boys do."
Dad sa3'S, "I will help you get into the Army."
Finally he fixed — not fixed, but he spoke to some of the officers, and
I finally got sent to Camp Dodge, Iowa, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Was this early in 1918 i
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; I think it was around January, the early
part of January of 1918, sir.
Mr. Matthews. You volunteered and were sent to Camp Dodge?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; I volunteered. You see, I was an alien.
They found out I was an alien, and that is one reason why the
marines won't have me. And, I could have claimed exemption, be-
cause I was an alien, but I wanted to sliow dad that I was grateful
for all the things he done for me, and Mother Slocum, too. You
know, we boys have funny feelings, too, we are sort of clannish, and
what one boy does we all want to do, because he is in the gang or
crowd, and naturally you want to march right along with them, and
naturally I went.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. In what branch of the Army did you serve?
Mr. Slocum. I was in the infantry, sir, and later I was placed
in the Intelligence Service, and later 1 became sergeant major. Three
Hundred and Twenty-eighth Infantry, Eighty-second Division, sir.
Mr. Matthew\s. Three Hundred and Twenty-eighth Infantry?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. IMatthews. Was the Three Hundred and Twenty-eighth In-
fantry Sergeant York's outfit?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. That was his outfit, sir.
]\Ir. Matthews. When did you leave the United States to go to
France ?
9416 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Slocum. I think, sir, it was in the early spring of 1918, sir.
It was, I think, around April, I believe sir ; early in April, I believe
it was, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And you went to France ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you go up to the front ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; I did, sir. We landed at Southampton and
then we came — no ; we landed at Liverpool and came to Southampton
and from there we took the channel boat, like all the other troops
did, and landed at Le Harve. From there we went up to Abbeville,
and back. of Abbeville they picked some of us to learn the British
Military Intelligence work, so we were sent up to the Amiens-Albert
front.
Mr. Matthews. Were you engaged in combat in the major opera-
tions around St. Mihiel and the Argonne Forest ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; I was in both of them, sir.
Mr, Matthews. Were you gassed in one of those engagements?
Mr. Slocum. I was gassed in the Argonne, sir.
Mr. Matthews. You were gassed in the Argonne Woods ?
Mr. Slocum. "Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you experience difficulty or were you hospi-
talized as a result of being gassed?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; I was hospitalized.
Mr. Matthews. Both in in France and the United States ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. How long were you in France altogether ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, sir, we landed there in April, late April. We
came home in June. Well, now, you figure it out, because I don't
want to be a liar on this again.
Mr. Matthews. Well, you were there at least a year or approxi-
mately a year ; maybe a little more or a little less.
Mr. Slocum. A little over, I believe.
Mr. Matthews. And vou came back to the United States in June
1918 and j^ou were mustered out then, were you ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes. sir; I was honorably discharged, sir.
IMr. Matthews. Did you as the result of your service with the
American Army in France in the Fi-rst World War eventually be-
come a naturalized citizen of the United States?
Mr. Slocum. It is true, sir. I got my first paper over in France,
sir, as the result of service over there, because at that time you recall,
sir, the Wartime Naturalization Act was passed wherein it was
stated that any alien that served in the United States Army, Navy,
or Marine Corps, may become a citizen of the United States by placing
an application with the authority, military authorities, to become a
citizen of the United States, and that was one of the things that I
promised dad that I would try to be when he came to the station to
see me off at the time I went to war.
Mr. Mattheavs. When did you finally receive your citizenship ?
Mr. Slocum. The final papers came to me around 1921 or 1922, sir.
Mr. Matthews. That was revoked though, was it not?
Mr. Slocum. No. sir. I got my final paper and it was revoked
in this way. sir. There came a case about that time, around 1922
or possiblv 1923, I don't remember exactly the date, but it stated that
in Toyota v. United States case, that was a case testing the validity
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9417
of orientals who obtained citizenship under the wartime act, not
having specifically mentioned orientals who can become citizens of
the United States under normal circumstances, therefore the Supreme
Court said to the effect that your citizenship is null and void. That
is how I lost it, sir.
Mr. ]\L\TrHEws. But subsequently you became a citizen. And, when
was that?
Mr. Slocum. By a special act of Congress known as the Nye-Lee
bill. Senator Nye and Congressman Clarence Lee of California, who
were good enough to introduce the bill for me, with the blessing of
the Department of California, of the national convention of the
American Legion and the blessing of the Veterans olf Foreign Wars.
The bill went through and I became a citizen of the United States
again, for which I am very thankful.
IVIr. Matthews. ^Vliat year was that ?
Mr. Slocum. I think it was in 1935, sir.
Mr. INIatthews. So now you are a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; full-fledged; yes, sir.
Mr. ^Iatthews. After you came back from France you were em-
ploj^ed at several jobs in various parts of the country, most of them
for rather short periods of time, were you not ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthew^s. Where did you finally settle down, as it were?
Mr, Slocum. Well, sir
Mr. ^Matthews (continuing) . For the longest period of time after
you came back from France?
Mr. Slocum. California, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Well, now, you went to Columbia University, did
you not?
Mr. Slocum. Oh. yes, sir. I went to Columbia University, sir,
from January of 1921 to 1924, sir.
Mr. MATTHEW'S. Did you receive a Government grant in aid to
enable you to go to Columbia University ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes. sir; I did.
Mr. Matthews. For 3 or 4 years ?
Mr. Slocum. Four years.
Mr. Matthews. Four years ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthew^s. And you attended Columbia for 4 years?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; I did, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Were you still working on the idea of becoming a
lawyer at that time ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; but while I was working on this ambition
of becoming a lawyer, sir, this Toyota v. The United States case came
up, and at that time I had a long talk with the present Chief Justice,
Dean Harlan Fiske Stone, and I had a hunch that this Toyota v.
United States case, which was later to come before the Supreme
Court — T had a feeling that my citizenship case would be nullified,
so I switched over to the school of commerce, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And after you left Columbia then you settled in
California; is that right?
INlr. Slocum. Yes. sir. After I obtained my citizenship I went to
work for the United States Employment Service in Los Angeles, Calif.,
sir.
9418 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA A'CTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. How long did you work there ?
Mr. Slocum. I worked there for about 3^ years, sir.
Mr. Matthews. That was from 1934
Mr. Slocum. No; 1935; late 1935 to about 1938, I believe it was,
sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you join the Japanese American Citizens
League in California?
Mr. Slocum. Yes; I did, sir. I was a member of the Japanese
American Citizens League as far back as 1929, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Where did you join it; in Los Angeles?
Mr. Slocum. In Los Angeles; when the war was declared I was
drafted to take the chairmanship of the anti-axis committee. At
that time, when the war was declared, they had nobody or Japanese
organization to guide, advise, or cooperate, not only wtih the duly
constituted Federal authorities, but Japanese citizens themselves were
lost for leadership.*
Mr. Matthews. Now, just a moment before you get down to the out-
break of the war. You said you joined the Japanese American Citi-
zens League in 1929 ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. I asked you where.
Mr. Slocum. Oh. that was in Seattle, Wash., sir.
Mr. Matthews. In Seattle ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Were you temporarily living in Seattle?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir. In 1929, my mother died in Saskatchewan,
Canada, so I went to her deathbed and I came back by way of Van-
couver and I stopped over in Seattle and just then it happened that
they were having a national convention, and they asked me if I would
cooperate with them in conducting this convention because they
thought that I may have had a little experience along the convention
line with the American Legion, and so forth, so I said I would be
very glad to help them.
But, I wanted to know what the Japanese American Citizens League
stood for. And, they told me that it was an agency to promote Ameri-
canism among Americans of Japanese ancestry. So, I said I will do
all I possibly can.
And, I mtroduced such innovations as salute to the colors, respect for
the departed, and singing of the National Anthem before the meeting,
and things like that and saying prayers before the convention officially
opened. The innovations of that nature were introduced at that con-
vention, which has been carried on for some time, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Who was the head of the Japanese American Citi-
zens League when you joined it?
Mr. Slocum. A lawyer up there, a very fine American. His name
is Clarence Arai. He was the only American of Japanese ancestry
that I ever heard that attained the rank of lieutenant-colonel in the
R. O. T. C. at the University of Washington.
Mr. Matthews. Who were the national leaders of the Japanese
American Citizens League in those early years when you belonged to
it?
Mr. Slocum. Well, in the early years I believe Mr. Arai, and he
later dropped out because the Japanese American Citizens League
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9419
gradually became ileoenerated into sort of a propaganda agency and
as an agency to promote more of a racial interest rather tlian American
interest, so' he and I and quite a few others of us have dropped out.
But, aside from Mr. Arai, there was Mr, James Sakamoto, Dr. Yatape,
Mr. Saburo Kido, and Mr. WaUer Tsukamoto. I believe those are the
leaders, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You spoke of the purpose of the J. A. C. L. changing.
About what time did that change take place when it Avent into propa-
ganda work?
Mr. Slocum. Sir, I would not call it propaganda, but gradually de-
generating toward
Mr. CosTFXLo. Racial interest?
Mr. Slocum. Eacial interest or, may I say, political? Instead of
being a social organization, made up of Americans of Japanese an-
cestry, it was sort of a matter ; well, more of a struggle for power and
struggle for recognition among the Japanese leaders.
Mr. MuNDT. It became sort of a pressure group ?
Mr. Slocum. I would say, to a degree ; yes, sir. That came about, I
would say, or I noticed it first around 1935; I mean 1936.
Mr. CosTELLo. Sort of a gradual change that took place, was it?
Mr. Slocum. AYell, that is the most piominent thing that I noticed
and therefore I resigned. If I may go on, sir ?
ISIr. Matthews. Yes.
Mr. Slocum. I resigned from the Japanese American Citizens
League around 1936. Around Los Angeles, where I was living, at-
tention was called to the fact that the Japanese American Citizens
League was taking the census of all the American-born Japanese in
and around Los Angeles for the Japanese consulate directly. Well,
what I said is not quite fit to say before your august body, but I
cussed them up and down and I started stumping and made speeches
and wrote letters and notified Homer Chaillaux, director of Ameri-
canism of the American Legion, and I also notified Mr, Victor
Deveraux, national director of Americanism, Veterans of Foreign
AVars, of the tendency and the opportunity that we have ahead of
us. That was around 1935,
I drifted out then and then I did not join, or I did not become
affiliated with the Japanese American Citizens League again until
war was declared, and that was in 1941; around January or there-
xibouls.
Mr, MA-rTHEWs. Now, you stated that the Japanese American Citi-
zens League around 1935 set about taking the census of American-born
Nisei,
Mr. Slocum. Yes.
Mr. IMattiiews. On behalf of the Japanese consulate?
Mr. Slocum, Yes.
Mr. MAT-riiEws. ]Mr. Chairman, on page 1885 of our appendix 6,
which is a report on Japanese activities, made in the early part of
1912 by the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, there is a
reproduction of one of the census blanks headed "Ja])anese American
Citizens League, Southern California Section, October 1, 1935."
Do you recall having seen any blank
]\Ir. Slocum. That is it.
Mr. Matthews (continuing). Similar to that?
9420 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Slocum. That is the one. That is the one that came to my
attention. And I raised the roof witli them, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. Was that one of the reasons why you resigned from
the Japanese American Citizens League ?
ISIr. Slocum. That is the reason.
Mr. Matthews. That is the reason.
Mr. Slocum. Of course, you know, things had been collected up to
that point before too, because the way they did it, you had the Japa-
nese Intelligence Service, then what is known as the Japanese Asso-
ciation, Central Japanese Association, and then there are various
Japanese newspaper syndicates and things like that. They were, in
my opinion, working not for the American way, but rather for the
interests of Japanese imperialism.
And, you can feel that. If you are not out 100 percent for the
the interests of these things, why you are just socially ostracized or
you are called a dog, or whatever they want to call you. And, for
instance, if there is any talent, a man with good talent, just like a
football squad, he would go out through the country to pick out
some of the boys potential for football players and football team.
They would also pick out the Americans of Japanese ancestry and
they more or less used them. That was the tendency and temptations
of that sort have been offered to me, too.
Mr. MuNDT. Would they give them a scholarship, too?
Mr. Slocum. I don't know that. This is the first time I ever heard
anything about the scholarship. I don't know anything about that,
sir. All I do know is that possibly you would be placed on a consular
invitation list ; maybe you would be included as a director in a Japa-
nese association; you may get more business or enjoj^ special social
favors, something of that sort. But, the tendency to utilize persons,
of Americans of Japanese ancestrj'-, toward their end, they did that;
like a trip to Japan, for instance. That is one of their awards, or a
banquet on a steamship, maybe. Well, that is another inducement,
possibly. In that way the tendency to use them as their men, or what-
ever you want to call it, was already in motion.
Mr. MuNDT. Do most of the big Japanese enterprise operating in
this country tend to employ people with ulterior motives behind them,
as well as being as of American- Japanese ancestry ?
Mr. Slocum. Sir, I can't say that for all of the companies, sir, be-
cause sometimes, I presume, ability goes a long ways. But the pull
goes a long ways, too, like with Mitsui and other companies.
Mr. MuNDT. Perhaps you could not say it of all of the companies,
but would you say it was a general tendency to do that?
Mr. Slocum. The general tendency perhaps is to take a person who
is pro- Japanese plus ability, plus good scholarship, and one that can
do possibly, or be of some use to the company as well as possibly for
Japan.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever observe any tendency of the interests to
pick talented young men of Japanese American ancestry and then
endeavor to inculcate Japanese imperialist ideas in them?
Mr. Slocum. Well, once they are in a company like that, I have
had people tell me two sides to the story. Now, one part of the story
is this. He says, "We Americans of Japanese ancestry, when we go
to work for Mitsui, Mitsubishi, N. Y. K., or the Yokohama Specie
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9421
Bank" — those are semiofficial big ouns — well, when they go to work
for them, and since they are not citizens of Japan, they are given sort
of a quasi status in the organization. The}' are not given full-fledged
status. I heard that complaint.
Then again, from the various social or prestige angles, they would
be invited, naturally, to big social functions or possibly be placed in
the consulate or Central Japanese Association invitation list, and in
that wa}' the}' would enjoy certain prestige in the community, and that
would be to their advantage.
Mr. MuNDT. Are the major newspapers of Japan involved with the
Government directly or indirectly ?
Mr. Slocum. Sir, I cannot answer that and be fair with you because
I don't know that angle very well. But, I presume that a Jai)anese
censorship — or a Japanese agency or a communication like Domei,
and so forth, being as they are, in the country as they are, I presume
that they are subject to a certain amount of censorship, perhaps like
Germany.
Mr. MuNDT. I was not thinking of censorship as I was whether or
not they had any semiofficial association with the Government.
]\f r. Slocum. Well, that is what I heard.
Mr. MuNDT. You heard they did ?
ISlr. Slocxtm. I can't prove it, but I heard they did.
jNIr. MuNDT. You heard they did ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. That is all.
Mr. Matthews. In 1929 there was introduced in the California
Legislature a bill popularly known as the antialien fishing bill, which
was designed to curb Japanese espionage activities among the fisher-
men there. Do you know what the attitude of the Japanese American
Citizens League was toward that legislation?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; I particularly remember that, because I
fought their stand on that. Previously I took the stand that the
California Antialien Fishing Act, or I thought in the beginning it was
distinctly discriminatory because they picked on the Japanese alone.
However, as I analyzed the situation I came to realize that the people
M-ho were backing, or blocking the j)assage of the bill, was the
Japanese American Citizens League. And, at that time I think Mr.
Tsukamoto was in back of it.
So, Mr. Archie Claussen, past national commander of the Ameri-
can Legion of the Department of California, who was also past de-
partment national Americanization commissioner there of the Ameri-
can Legion, too, asked me that question.
And I said, "Archie, I think the time has come for us to take a
definite stand on aid and assistance that is being given by the
Japanese American Citizens League to try to block the passage of
this bill. So, you listen to me tonight."
And, at a meeting, where I definitely took a stand in San Fran-
cisco, at a convention of the Japanese American Citizens League,
that I thought that the stand they took was wrong, because I
thought they were acting as sort of a front man for the various
Jaj^anese fishing interests, and I didn't know exactly where the money
was coming from to combat the lol)bying, or to promote the lobbying.
Mr. Matthews. Well, to make the answer brief, you know that the
Japanese American Citizens League was opposed to that legislation?
62626 — 43— VOL 13 38
9422 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Slocum. To the passing of the legislation.
Mr. Matthews. Were you evacuated at the outbreak of the present
war?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; we all were.
Mr. Matthews. Where were you residing at the time of Pearl
Harbor ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, at the time of Pearl Harbor?
Mr. Matthews. Where were you residing?
Mr. Slocum. Van Nuys, Calif.
Mr. Matthews. How long before you were evacuated, after Pearl
Harbor ?
Mr. Slocum. We were evacuated around April of 1942, I believe it
was.
Mr. Matthews. Now, in the meantime, that is, between Pearl Har-
bor and the time of your evacuation, did you become the chairman of
what was known as the anti-Axis committee of the Japanese Amer-
ican Citizens League?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. I was drafted into it, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know why you were chosen for that posi-
tion? State it very briefly, if you will, please.
Mr. Slocum. Well, sir, I submitted a letter to you, sir, that said that
my record is pretty good and I got a pretty clean Americanization
reputation. So, they wanted someone whose reputation was O. K. for
an emergency of this nature, or something like that.
So, I said to my wife, I said, "They are offering me the chairmanship
now after they have been fighting me, but I believe that I can serve,
but before I serve," I said, 'T want to get the O. K. from the F. B. I.
and Naval Intelligence and Army Intelligence, the American Legion,
the Masonic Order, the California Joint Americanization Committee,
and the various recognized patriotic organizations."
And I put it up to them this way : I said, ''You know how I have
been fighting the Japanese, the encroachment of the Japanese things
in our community. Now comes the war and they want me to take the
leadership of my people here."
And, I said further: "I will accept it if you will O. K. it on the
ground that I would be permitted to leave all the personnel as is,"
because I wanted to see what made the machinery of that organization
run the way it did.
So, every one of them blessed me and said, "Go ahead, Tokie. They
trust vou."
IsaKl, "O. K."
So, with tlie blessing of all the organizations, I took the leadership,
but on the condition that every member of the organization shall co-
operate with me fully, to cooperate with the duly constituted Federal
authorities, sir ; please understand that. That was the condition upon
which I took it.
Mr. Mattheavs. And you served as chairman of that group from
about tlie beginning of 1942 until the time of your evacuation ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes. sir.
Mr. Matthews. Which was in April of 1942 ?
Mr. Slocum. Until we all went to jail.
Mr. Matthews. Were you evacuated to Camp Manzanar ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9423
Mr. Mattheavs. When 30U arrived at Manzanar, were you among
the first to reach there ?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir. I think we were about the third contingent, if
I am not nu^staken, sir. We were about the third to arrive there.
Mr. Matthews. How many evacuees were there in Manzanar when
you arrived?
JMr. Slocum. I would say, perhaps, 3,000, or thereabouts.
Mr. Maithews. How did you find conditions, generally speaking,
when you reached Manzanar?
Mr. Slocum. Well, sir, when I first reached Manzanar, everything
looked all right. Of course, everything was new to us, and Vve sort of
felt relieved from tension or accepting relief in it, accepting evacua-
tion in it, so when we first landed, w4iy, we were more or less relieved,
sir, from tension, may I say ?
Mr. JNIatthews. Did you eventually begin to notice tension inside of
the camp ?
Mr. 8L0CUM. Oh, yes, sir. We felt it.
Mr. ISIati'hews. What was the nature of those tensions inside of the
camp?
Mr. Slocum. Well sort of a pent-up feeling for a long time, or,
rather, dissension against the American Government for having evac-
uated the people into the camp, which sort of came to the surface;
emotion, sir, reactionary feeling sort of erupted here and there. We
heard the grumbling and we heard some speeches contrary to our
form of government, and things like that, sir. •
Mr. Matthews. In other words, these speeches that you heard and
the discussions which you heard were pro-Axis, pro-Japanese and
anti-American, were they?
jVIr. Slocum. Yes, sir. On the top of it, there was complete con-
fidence on the part of the leaders that Japan was going to win the
war and speeches that over the high Sierras will come Tojo to rescue
them. That was the kind of feeling that existed.
Mr. Matthews. Were there organized groups of a secret character
working in Camp Manzanar ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; there were quite a few of them, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know the names of any of them?
Mr. Slocum. Well, sir, I was a special investigator there, or in-
spector there, so it was my duty to obtain all this information and
report that to the duly constituted authorities, so I happened to come
across most of them, and many of them I would say were Blood Broth-
ers, Black Dragon, the Dunbar Corps, or Dunbar Gang, and the San
Pedro Yogres.
Mr. Matthews. Gangs like the Dunbar Corps and the Blood Broth-
ers Corps, did these groups operate secretly or put notices on the
bulletin boards of the camps?
Mr. Slocum. They did, sir.
Mr. Matthews. How soon after you went to Manzanar did you
begin to notice the activities of these underground subversive ele-
ments?
Mr. Slocum. Well, sir, I believe it was right after, perhaps around
July, June, or July, sir, about 2 or 3 months after I began to notice
the increase in feeling of disorder.
9424 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. When those notices were put up in camp, were they
written in Japanese or English ?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir ; they were all written in Japanese characters,
sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Can you read Japanese?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir ; I am sorry I can't, sir.
Mr. Matthews. You can understand some of the language though,
can you not?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. But you see, under this, what is known as
special investigations, we ourselves had our secret group, too. One
man can read Japanese and another man can write Japanese, and
things like that. So, I had with me perhaps eight or nine persons
who cooperated with me for the F. B. I.
Mr. MuNDT. And these notices were translated to you so that you
positively know?
Mr. Slocum. Positivelj'^ correct; absolutely correct. And then it
was sent down to the F. B. I. in Los Angeles. There I told them,
I says, "You want to double check this by your Korean interpreter,
so that you feel you made it right." So, in that way, I know it was
absolutely correct.
Mr. Matthews. What Government agency was in charge of Man-
zanar when you got there ?
Mr. Slocum. The W. C. C. A.
Mr. Matthews. Then what Government agency took over the ad-
ministration of the camp a short time later?
Mr. Slocum. The W. R. A., sir.
Mr. Matthews. That is the War Relocation Authority?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir
Mr. Matthews. When did that transition take place from the W. C.
C. A. totheW. R. A.?
Mr. Slocum. Sir, I cannot be absolutely accurate on that, sir, but
perhaps it was around the month of May or June ; somewhere around
in there, possibly.
]Mr. Matthews. Did you notice any difference in the atmosphere
of the camp with respect to these subversive groups after the W. R. A.
took over the camp ?
Mr. Slocum. Unfortunately, yes ; I did. I think W. R. A. is try-
ing to do a thankless job well, but they somehow took advantage of
something. I began to notice the growing activity.
Mr. Matthews. Do you mean there was more unrest?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. There was more?
Mr. Slocum. It was not so much unrest as more a manifestation
of pro-Japaneseism in the camp, because meetings then were permitted
with greater frequency.
Mr. Matthews. Was there greater leniency or tolerance of these
manifestations on the part of W. R. A. than tliere had been on the
partof W. C. C. A.?
Mr. Slocum. Well, I would say yes. On the other hand, it may
have been a gradual transition which woiild have come anyway,
whether it was the W. C. C. A. or the W. R. A., because we had become
accustomed to the new rigor of life in that camp, and after once you
become accustomed to any other why you begin to find fault. I sup-
pose that is the way it started ; I don't know.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9425
Mr. CosTELLO. What was the general attitude of the Japanese when
they were first evacuated ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, it was verj' funny, sir, Congressman Costello,
because we were so grateful to be placed in there. That is the attitude
that they expressed to me, they were so grateful to be j^iaced in there;
that we were no longer subject to rigid control or getting a permit
before going to buy groceries, and we were not subject to being
stopped by the F. B. I. on the road. They call them the F. O. B., by
the way. You know, we were really exploited a good deal in these
periods, and they were glad, because they were not exploited any
more. That sort of feeling let down a little tension.
JNlr. Costello. The loyal Japanese, after Pearl Harbor, suffered a
few insults, did they not?
Mr. Slocum. AVell, I could write a book, sir, because everything
came to my hand for help, and the ,only men I could turn to was the
F. B. I. and Xav}^, because they abused the name of the F. B. I.
They would go around and pose as F. B. I.'s in case after case. They
had two cliques that were going there with false badges and saying,
^'I am F. B. I. I am sorry, you have a nice range here. Well, you have
to evacuate in 48 hours.''
Well, these poor farmers didn't know what the score was, and then
a driver would drive up and say, "I give you $10 for the ice box," and
F. B. I. and Navy, because they abused the name of the F. B. I.
And the girls were being raped.
Mr. Costello. The Japanese were being abused and taken advan-
tage of and also threatened as to their safety by these people ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. So that when they first went into these evacuation
centers, they felt, at least, they were safe from personal attack or
bodily harm ?
Mr. Slocum. Right, sir, and they were very grateful in the begin-
ning. But, as they^became used to it, like any other community, they
began to find fault here and there.
Mr. Costello. But after they were once concentrated in these cen-
ters, then these various organizations were able to operate and to
function ?
Mr. Slocum. That is right.
Mr. Costello. To influence the thinking of the people in the cen-
ters?
Mr. Slocum. That is what happened.
Mr. Costello. And nothing was done to try to prevent these organi-
zations from functioning and developing a pro-Japanese feeling among
the people ?
Mr. Slocum. Some pitiful efforts were made, sir, from time to
time, like putting them in jail for 1 week; like a man who stole a
sack of cement, he was given 1 hour in jail, and things like that.
While they were in jail, all their friends would come to them with
ice cream and pop and cookies and coffee ; a percolator and toast.
And I said. ''What the blank blank is this?"
Well, finally they did away with that kind of stuff but that is the
way it happened. It was sort of picnic-like.
ISIr. Costello. There was not sufficient punishment meted out to
those found guilty ?
9426 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Slocum. I don't think so. Yon know the Japanese trait, of
the people, they have been for generations reared to respect the
strong arm, or the fist, you know.
Mr. CosTELLo. Well, there are lots of Japanese people who believe
that the father is a full dictator in his own home.
Mr. Slocum. That is right, and they expect the same thing, and
thev would have more respect for greater discipline.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Government of Japan operates the same way,
dictatorially, in giving out orders and things of that kind.
Mr. Slocum. Please, Mr. Congressrnan, understand this angle, too.
With that kind of attitude, see, well, you sort of penalize those peo-
])le who are loyal, because the loyal people all get beaten up, which
is not out of the camp; all our houses robbed and wives raped and
insulted and intimidation and threats all the time, whereas they
didn't have the law enforced enough within the camp, and therefore
the bad ones became bolder and they became more outspoken in the
end.
Mr. MuNDT. When the committee was in California, they had nu-
merous other complaints along the same line that came before them.
The people out there were pirating and exploiting the Japanese and
acting as if they were F, B. I. agents and then beating the Japanese
owners out of their property, and the committee thought that was in-
defensible, shameful, and we agree with you on that point.
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. We believe you have a just complaint in that regard.
Mr. Slocum. Thank you.
Mr. MuxDT. I ask you if that was the usual condition in Man-
zanar, and have you detected any attitude on the part of the Jap-
anese folks that they want to be released from the camp and re-
turned either to California or somewhere else in private life?
Mr. Slc CUM. No, sir ; not right away. You mean, right after they
got to the camp?
Mr. MuNDT. Well, yes.
Mr. Slocum. No, sir; right after they got to the camp, we were
so relieved, as I said a little while ago, and we knew the reason
why we got put into the camp was because there being so much.
Japanese influence among Japanese natives, that the folks didn't
know a good one, a loyal one, from the bad one. Therefore, with
the war on if you will read the Tolan committee report, I stated
that — I said, "By cracky, you don't know a good one from a bad
one."
I said, "We all look alike, blf\ck hair, tan color, slant-eyed." And,
I wish you would read that report. I took that stand.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you feel if there had been adequate discipline
and leadership in these camps, that there would not have resulted
this condition?
Mr. Slocum. From the very beginning. I sav the W. R. A. can
not be entirelv blamed for it.' You know, the W. C. C. A. handed
down to the W. E. A. some of their own mismanagement and lax-
ity— and please bear that in mind.
Mr. CosTELLO. You mean the W. R. A. aggravated the situation,
or did they tend to correct it?
UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9427
]Mr. Slocum. I believe the W. R. A. is going to correct it, but I
don't believe it is strong enough to cope with the type of people ad-
ministering, as I can see.
Mr. CosTELLO. This desire then on the part of the Japanese that
they be released from the camps grows out of a lack of strong leader-
ship on the part of the camp authorities?
Mr. Slocum. I thiidv that ought to be the recommendation sir.
Take the internal i^olice department. I happen to know the officials
and the workings of the internal police, and it is all made up of
Japanese, with few Caucasian men on top, like the chief of police
and assistant chief of police. Well, they are mighty fine fellows,
sympathetic, and try to be very good to us.
On the other hand, when a showdown comes, like in a riot time,
they being Japanese, they will say, "Why get ourselves heated up
by strong arming against our own people?" That is the attitude
a lot of people take. And, you have it in three shifts. One shift
says, "Well, no use. What is the use of getting beaten up in a case
like this ? Let us resign.'* They did resign.
Wliat kind of fellows have you got then? You have the M. P.'s
a mile and a half away, and in the meantime the lower ones get
beat up. It was real tragic comedy in the camp in those days.
Mr. INIatthews. When you learned of these pro-Japanese and anti-
American utterances and activities in Camp Manzanar, did you call
that to the attention of the W. R. A. Administration authorities at
the camp?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; I call it to the attention of some of the au-
thorities, sir; a fellow by the name of Karl Yoneda went to Mister —
well, he was the director at that time, and he asked the director, I be-
lieve, to have a special meeting of sort of an executive committee to
thrash out the demonstrations, anti-American demonstrations that
have already taken place, and this gentleman was very much in favor
of firmer hands, but then again you have members in that group there
who believe in soft-pedaling all this, so nothing definite ever came out
of that, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you on more than one occasion report or call
attention to the authorities of such activities ?
Mr. Slocum. I certainly did, sir. It was my duty to report every
day, practically, to F. B. I., and we compared data with data prac-
tically every day, Joe Masaoka and Tojo Tanaka. We compared data
on many occasions to see what was taking place, because I wanted
the report to get into the F. B. I. to be as accurate as I know how.
There is not one thinrr prejudiced in there.
jNIr. Matthews. What response did you get when you called the
attention of the W. R. A. authorities to these subversive activities and
attitudes?
Mr. Slocum. Well, they said they are going to remeclv it, and the
remedies that they mete out were not compatible with the degree of
crime, I tliink. because they woidd have sort of a quarrel out there
and punisliment in the cases — well, thev were either let out on parole
and maybe 1 hour in jail or maybe 1 week in jail.
Mr. Mattheavs. Well, did these manifestations of pro-Japaneseism
and anti -Americanism increase during the year, during the summer
and fall ?
9428 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; notably increased.
Mr. Matthews. And discipline became worse and more lax, did it?
Mr. Slocum, That is right, until it terminated in the Pearl Harbor
anniversary, December 7.
Mr. Matthews. On December 7, 1942, was there a riotous demon-
stration at Manazar?
Mr. Slocum. It was very riotous indeed.
Mr. Matthews. Were you present on that occasion ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, I was the No. 1 Jap they were after. I sure
was present.
Mr. Matthews. You mean, the pro- Japanese were after you?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Were they going to do you bodily harm ?
Mr. Slocum. I understood they were going to kill me or tear me
limb from limb, or something.
Mr. Matthews. Well, had members of the camp been beaten up
severely ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. There were about two or three cases up to
that time.
Mr. Matthews. Will you describe briefly what occurred at this De-
cember 7, 1942, riotous demonstration ?
Mr. Slocum. I will make it very brief, sir. In the fireplace in
block 23, they had a big demonstration, I recall, and they named the
death list of all the pro-Americans within the camp.
Mr. Matthews. Did they do that publicly ?
Mr. Slocum. Oh, yes ; right out in the open.
Mr. Matthews. Did your name head the list ?
Mr. Slocum. I was the No. 1 Jap, sure.
Mr. Matthews. You were the No. 1 Jap ?
Mr. Slocum. Tojo Tanaka, Joe Masaoka, that I mentioned, and
myself and Fred Tayama and Tom Imai. We were on every definite
list of death.
Mr. Matthews. What was the date of that meeting?
•Mr. Slocum. That was the 6th.
Mr. Matthews. December 6?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Then what occurred after that? Did the authori-
ties take any action ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, the authorities were not there to see what was
happening. And, I asked that the M. P.'s be called. They says,
"No."
Mr. Matthews. Who did you ask ?
Mr. Slocum. Mr. Ned Campbell, assistant director.
He said, "When the M. P. comes, I go out."
I said, "Why?"
Well, he says, "If I can't administer without the help of the M. P.'s,
why then I go."
]VIr. Matthews. The M. P.'s, that is the military police ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. ^Hiere were the military police located ?
Mr. Slocum. About a mile and a half away.
Mr. Matthews. From the camp ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES " 9429
Mr. Matthews. You reported this meeting of December 6 to Mr.
Campbell?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And he refused to call the military police?
INIr. Si.ocuM. That is right.
Mr. Mattheavs. He said, "When they come in, I go out"?
Mr. Slocum. He said he would go out.
Mr. Matthews. Well, that was his attitude ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Well, did the disturbance continue that night and
the next ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. Then the demonstrators, about 2,000 came
singing Jap war songs, like what was human dynamite and all those
Jap war songs, and it was unusual. And, they came marching down
like the French revolutionists that I seen pictures of.
Mr. IMatthews. That was on the morning of December 7?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir ; that was the evening of December 6.
Mr. jSIatthews. The evening of December 6 ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; the afternoon.
Mr, Matthews. You say about 2,000 came marching singing Japa-
nese war songs?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; and yelling "'Banzai" and "Dai Nippon'' and
"Hurrah for Pearl Harbor,"' and words following for that.
Mr. Matiheavs. What is the meaning of "Banzai" ?
Mr. Slocum. That is one for the — well, the equivalent of "hurrah."
]Mr. Matthews. Where did they come from ?
Mr. Slocum. They came right by the administration building. I
was in the police station along with the other policemen. We police
were impotent then.
Mr. jNIatthews. You were the internal police as distinguished from
the militarj^ police, from the outside?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; military, if you do not come in.
Mr. Matthews. Were the military police in the camp armed?
Mv. Slocum. No, sir ; we. have only a flashlight and a badge, that
is all.
Mr. Matthews. These 2,000 were obviously belligerent, were they?
Mr. Slocum. Definitely belligerent, all the 2,000. I can't say that
all 2,000 were pro-Japanese, you understand, but I think maybe 90 per-
cent were spectators, coming down to see what was going to happen.
Mr. Matthews. But you are sure that the mob spirit had seized the
group ?
Mr. Slocum. Thev were seething with it.
Mr. Matthews. .There was no question in your mind but what they
were bent on destruction ?
Mr. Slocum. Not in my mind.
Mr. Matthews. Who was in direct ciiarge of the camp at that
time?
JNIr. Slocum. Mr. Ealpli Merritt. He was a right good fellow.
Everybody liked him.
Mr. :Matthews. What did he do?
Mr. Slocum. He called the military police in the meantime. He was
at a dinner some place, and I know when he sized up the situation,
after a few minutes he called the M. P.'s, and the M. P.'s came not long
after.
5430 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
But, lie went out there to meet tlie mob. He raised his hand, I re-
member, sort of Indian fashion, and tliey all stopped about 100 feet
away from the police station, and there they had sort of a confab, and
Mr. Ned Campbell also went out there, but they chased Mr. Campbell
back into the police department.
Mr. IMatthews. "VYlio chased him back ?
Mr. Slocum. The mob didn't like him, somehow.
Mr. Matthews. You mean they heckled him and hurled epithets at
him?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. So he went back in ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And Mr. Merritt stayed ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes. A lot of things militated and added to the cause
of the revolution. Some of the camp officials' attitude was. "Why
talk about the loyalty and patriotism; you haven't got your citizen-
ship. You are in ^ail with the rest of them, so forget about it."
And I refused to forget. I said, "Citizenship is the fountainhead
of loyalty of people to America." I said, "Without it we have noth-
ing." I said, "I will not stop preaching Americanism."
Mr. Matthews. You were not making this kind of a speech during
this demonstration, were you?
Mr. Slocum. No; previous to the demonstration, too, on the occa-
sion when they would come up and speak for Japan, and I shook my
fist in the face of the militant Japanese gang.
Mr. Matthews. You were explaining why they were after you,
then ?
Mr. Slocum. I was explaining why we were in the gang, so to
speak.
Mr. Matthews. And now you are explaining why they were after
you?
Mr. Slocum. Yes.
Mr. Costello. This might be a good point to stop for lunch.
Mr. Stripling. May we have a short intermission, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. CosTELLO. Yes.
[Short recess.]
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Matthews. Now, Mr. Slocum, did violence occur at the culmina-
tion of this riot ?
Mr. Slocum. It did, on the following day; on the following night;
yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. On December 7 ?
Mr. Slocum. Violence occurred. I am afraid I got the date mixed
again, sir. This was on the 7th. The violence occurred that night.
Mr. Matthews. On the night of the 7th ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; af tier the demonstrators came down and made
demands on the administrators. The administrators best met the
crisis as they knew how; in other words, they took Ufno, the leader.
Mr. Matthews. That is, they took one of the leaders and locked
him up?
Mr. Six)CUM. In the Bishop jail. Then tliey demanded that he be
brought back to Manzanar.
Mr. Matthews. That is, the mob demanded that ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9431
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did they bring him back?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. What did the mob do then?
Mr. Si.ocu-Ar. The mob demanded that he be released. In the mean-
time, tlie M. P.'s were all there.
3Ir. jMatthews. The military police did arrive?
JNfr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. ^Iattiiews. There was shooting, was there not?
Mr. Slocum. Well, one of the mob got a truck and put it in second
gear and aimed it at the M. P.'s, you know.
Mr. JMatthews. You mean he put it in second gear and then jumped
out ?
]Mr. Slocum. Yes.
IVIr. Matthews. They aimed the truck at the M. P.'s ?
Mr. Slocum. They aimed on an angle on the crowd and they started
shooting.
Mr. Matthews. Then the military police started to fire?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. INIaitheavs. Did they use a machine gun ?
Mr. Slocum. I don't think they used a machine gun, not froni what
I understood. Of course, I was not there then. I was looking out
for myself then, and I was in hiding by that time.
Mr."^ Matthews. You know from reports of the incident that there
was shooting?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And there were two persons killed ?
]Mr. Slocum. Yes ; one died right away and the other one I under-
stood died that night.
Mr. Matthews. And a number were injured by bullets?
Mr. Slocum. Nine.
Mr. Matthews. Nine injured by bullets?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
]Mr. ]\Iattheavs. And tear gas was used to disperse the mob ?
Mr. Slocum. In the first set, but that didn't do much good.
Mr. Matthews. And when you saw that violence was occurring,
that shooting had started, you left?
Mr. Slocum. Oh, you see, when the demonstrators came there was
an interim there when they demanded that this Ueno be brought back
from Bishop to the local jail.
Mr. Stmpltng. At that time why was he jailed?
Mr. Slocum. He was beating up one of the boys there called Tajiri.
Mr. Stripling. They beat him up the day before?
Mr. Slocum. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. And they jailed him for being the leader of this
mob?
Mr. Slocum. Yes; Larry said, "I recognize this boy.'^ He had a
handkerchief over his face, but he said he could recognize this boy.
Mr. Stripling. Did others notify you that they were coming to
get you ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. On the afternoon of December 6, about dark?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. That is right, is it?
9432 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Slccum. Yes, sir,
Mr. Stripling. Did the mob approach your home?
Mr. Slocum. They did, and wrecked everything and stole every-
thing.
Mr. Stripling. What did you do when you saw the mob come to
your house ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, I was called perhaps three or four times that
day, and I thought it was just the usual warning. But, this guy
came into the house and he said, "Don't stay in the house tonight;
they are going to kill you sure."
And, I looked out and it was dark then. And I looked out and
there was the mob coming, and the only thing I had was the flash-
light.
JMr. Stripling. What did you do ?
Mr. Slocum. I said, "Come and get me. Here I am." I wanted
to take that pressure away from my house. I had two babies and a
wife in there.
Mr. Stripling. Then what did you do ?
Mr. Slocum. I ran as fast as I could a mile and a half to the police
station, that I wanted to go to, but I couldn't make it.
Mr. Stripling. What did you do?
Mr. Slocum. So I hid under the Kibei houses.
Mr. Stripling. Was the Kibei active in this pro- Japanese mob ?
Mr. Slooum. Yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling. So you hid under their houses ?
Mr. Slocum. I thought, "By God, those are the only people that
won't be home," so I hid there.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you stay there ?
Mr. Slocum. About 2 hours.
Mr, Stripling. Then what did you do ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, I began to say my prayers and everything else,
and then I finally walked down in the open, far back, and finally made
for the barbed-wire fence where the flashlight swings around like this
in a circle, for the fire cook.
Mr. Stripling. That is the headquarters of the military police?
Mr, Slocum. Yes, sir; not headquarters, but outpost. And I said
to myself, "Well, by God, on this side the Japs are going to get me
and on this side the M. P.'s will get me," and I said, "By God, I would
rather be killed by an American anyhow." So, I waited for the flash-
light to make a circle and when everything was in the dark I ran and
ducked until I finally made it.
Mr. Stripling. Then, when you got there you put yourself in the
custody of the military police ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes ; I did, sir.
Mr. Stripling. And did the military police then come and get your
family ?
Mr. Slocum. Oh, they were good, sure.
Mr. Stripling. They got your family?
Mr. Slocum. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. And, how many other internees did they so-call
rescue from the mob?
Mr. Slocum. I judge about 25.
Mr. Stripling. What did they do with the 25 ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9433
Mr. Slocum, They placed us in the M. P. dispensary, no bed
or nothing. We all sat there and glad we were alive.
]Mr. Stripling. They put you there that night?
Mr. Slocum. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Then the following day the shooting occurred?
Mr. Slocum. I believe so.
Mr. Stripling. I see. In other words, they sort of put you in jail
to protect you from the other fellows ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, I volunteered my sei'vices — this is off the
record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Stripling. Was it because you were working with the F. B. I.
and working against this group that they were going to kill you?
Mr. Slocum. Definitely. The only thing I ever asked for from
the F. B. I. was a postage stamp, and one day in the police station
one boy opened the door enough to see the boy hand me a postage
stamp, and ever since that time I have been a marked man.
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will stand in recess until 2 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m., a recess was taken until 2:30 p. m.
this day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The hearing was resumed at 2:30 p. m., pursuant to the recess.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order. Mr. Slocum, will
you come forward? You may continue with the questioning where
you left off.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to have
you excuse Mr. Slocum and call to the stand Mrs. Kanazawa to
identify a document about which Mr. Slocum will then testify.
Mr. CosTELLO. All right.
TESTIMONY OP EMILIE AUGUSTA ALDEIDGE KANAZAWA
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosteLlo. State your full name to the reporter, please.
Mrs. Kanazawa. Emilie Augusta Alclridge Kanazawa.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, subsequently, when Mrs. Kana-
zawa is called to give further testimony, she will be identified at
greater length. For our present purposes, we have only one question
to ask her.
Mr. Costello. Proceed.
Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Kanazawa, were you served with a subpena
from the Special Committee on Un-American Activities on or about
June 11, 1943, to turn over to the committee, duces tecum, the rec-
ords of the Japanese American Citizens League which were in your
possession, in your apartment?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Matthews. Pursuant to the terms of that subpena, did you turn
over to an agent of the Special Committee on Un-American Activities
this bound volume of mimeographed pages ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir ; I did.
ISIr. Matthews. This volume is entitled "Supplement to Minutes
Japanese American Citizens League, Special Emergency National
9434 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Conference, November 17-24, 1942, Salt Lake City, Utah, issued
January 1, 1943, Japanese American Citizens League, National Head-
quarters, 413-415 Beason Building, Salt Lake City, Utah."
Several sections of this report are marked "Confidential."
Wha{ was the address where you resided at the time you turned
this particular document over to an agent of the Special Committee
on Un-American Activities?
Mrs. Kanazawa. The address was apartment 5. 1324 Fourteenth
Street NW.
ISIr. Matthews. That is all for the present with this witness.
Mr. CosTELLo. Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Slocum, will you resume, please?
TESTIMONY OP TOKUTAEO NISHIMUKA SLOCUM— Resumed
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Slocum, have you had an opportunity to read
various portions of this document which has just been identified by
Mrs. Kanazawa?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. i)id you read beginning with supplement No. 32
to the end of the volume?
Mr. Slocum. I did, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Chairman, the pages of this volume are not
numbered, so I identify the page by supplement 32 to the end of the
volume.
I will read, Mr. Slocum, excerpts from this portion of the docu-
men which you read and then ask you if you can confirm from your
own first-hand experience the truth of the statements found herein,
or if you can add to the facts as set forth in this report.
Supplement No. 32 of this report is entitled "Reports National
Emergency Conference, Japanese American Citizens League, Internal
Security."
In general, Mr. Chairman, this section of this confidential docu-
ment of the Japanese American Citizens League deals with the activi-
ties of various underground and subversive Japanese organizations
at work at the Manzanar camp of the War Relocation Authority. In
the introduction to this document, we read as follows :
Now, with more leisure time, dormant forces are beginning to create dis-
turbances. What has seemingly appeared to most Caucasian administrators
as a placid community life, in reality, covered a cauldron in which differing
ideologies, unmiscible as oil and water, seethed and boiled. Surface indications
of this intPrnal strife have appeared from time to tinip. However, center officials
have usually dismissed these symptoms with an academic leniency.
Mr. Slocum, is that description in line with what you found to be
the conditions at Manzanar center while you were there?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; quite true, sir. If I may add, this is very
well written up and the symptoms as expressed here may be added
to mean symptoms of discontentment and unrest and pro-Japaneseism
on one hand and pro-Americanism on the other, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Thank you. Again we read :
Internal security should be exactly what its title connotes. Reports issuing
from some centers indicate that security of life and limb for those bespeaking
constructive attitudes does not exist. On the other hand, malefactors have been
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9435
so condoned that their nefarious beatings of decent citizens continues not only
unaliated Init with increasing frequency.
A warnins ncte must here be again enipiiasized. As community leaders leave
on individual relocation, the centers are drained of the spark plugs which give
momentum to War Relocation Authiu-ity pt)licies. The elements which main-
tained helpful attitudes of personal reestablishment may disintegrate. The
centers may become hotbeds of uiu-est and indolence. Truly, a great many of
the evacuees may become persuaded to remain as wards for the duration. With
such a spirit ramiiant within the cent<n's, War Relocation Authority administra-
tion may of necessity become transformed into a prison administration to main-
tain peace and order.
I take it, Mr. Slocum, that that section refers to the fact that those
wlio were actively and vocally pro-American in their attitudes were
in danger of being beaten and were actnallv beaten in some cases by
elements in the camp who were energetically pro-Japanese?
]Mr. Slocu:m. Ver}^ true, sir. Then, too, sir, not only were we
subjected to the various beatings as it states here, of decent citizens,
but we were placed in a constant fear, threat, intimidations, and every
time you go to mess hall or line up in mess hall, or if j^ou go to the
canteen to buy something, you were insulted and taunted and you
Avere called everything; even your children sometimes got stoned and
your wives got abused with vile language. And, it is very true that
it sort of seemed to put a premium on disloyal ones and didn't give
any protection to loyal ones who had the courage to stand up for
America.
Mr. jNIatthews. Did you find on the part of the administrators of
the camp, that is, the administrators of the War Relocation Authority,
objection to segregating these disloyal and violent elements from the
loyal Nisei?
Mr. Slocum. Their stand, as I noticed, seemed to be a rather pas-
sive one. and if they did take an}' measure it was a mild one.
;Mr. Matthews. AYell, were they opposed to segregation of these
two elements?
Mr. Slocum. In a way: yes. I would say possibly they were op-
posed, because it meant for us a repetition of another riot or they
themselves did not take any definite stand; no, sir. They did not
take any strong stand to discourage any of these nefarious beatings
or anything of that kind.
Mr, JNIattheavs. Xow, this confidential report of the Japanese
American Citizens League speaks of gangdom existing in Manzanar,
and tlie report states :
Manzanar gangdom is usually identified by the people as one of three groups:
(1) Terminal Islanders known also as Yogores or the San Pedro Gang.
(2) The Dunbar Gang.
(3) The Blood Brothers Corps, known also as Yuho Kesshidan.
Were you, when you were at Manzanar, aware of the existence of
these three groups of gangdom ?
Mr. Slocum. I was definitely aware, sir, of two of them, that is the
San Pedro Yogores and the hoodlum gang of Dunbar gangsters.
They were sort of like a cross between zoot suiters and gangsters
like. And they have absolutely no regard for anything. They run
around in gangs and throw threats and intimidations, and they would
hurt people, and they were absolutely there, sir. As for the Blood
Brothers and Black Dragon, they were a phantom group. They
would post signs in Japanese quarters, in the kitchen, because they
9436 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
know everybody would have to eat at the kitchen, and you would
have to line up, and as you lined up and get to j^our turn at the mess
hall, why, you have to read the signs posted at the entrance door, so
in that way they carried out their vicious mission.
Mr. CosTELLO. How old were the members of these gangs ?
Mr. Slocum. The San Pedro Yogores were much older, sir, than
the Dunbar group. I would say the Dunbar group averaged maybe
perhaps 15, to perhaps the oldest one, maybe 25, sir. They always
2'an in gangs and they were really a lawless, vicious sort of thing.
Mr. CosTELLO. American born, were they ?
Mr. SiiOCUM. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoSTELLO. And the same is true of the San Pedro Yogores ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. American born also ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; you can tell the difference between Yogores
and the Dunbar group, because the San Pedro Yogores were more
violent, but they were more clannish, and if one of their gang should
be beaten up, why, then the whole gang would go to revenge them in
typical Japanese fashion.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were any Kibei in these groups ? •
Mr. Slocum. Perhaps there were, sir; I couldn't srj as to exactly
what percentage each group were composed, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Kibeis were just a group of youngsters?
Mr. Slocum. Hoodlums.
Mr. CosTELLO. But causing trouble ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; but they were a very vicious group, sir,
because they throw intimidations and almost force practically every-
body to do as they will. For instance, they will break up dances
and any kind of a sociable gathering. They would bust in and have
their say, and the police force was not strong enough to cope with
the situation. Again, I would like to emphasize, Mr. Congressman,
when the military police force arrived, with their ability to combat,
why thev would stand up and take notice. That sentiment prevailed.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would you say that each of these groups was more
pro- Japanese than the other ?
Mr. Slocum. Absolutely. I didn't see any symptoms of pro-Amer-
jcanism.
Mr. Matthews, The report thus describes the Blood Brothers more
in the following language :
This appears to be an untlergronnd movement, political in nature. Unlike the
San Pedro gang or the Dunbar gang, no members of this group has come out
into the open and acknowledged himself as a Blood Brother.
Their activities to date :
(a) On October 31, 1942, bulletins written in Japanese appeared on mess hall
bulletins in violation of central regulations, which require approval of every
poster. Translated, the bulletin read :
"Attention. We do not recognize any necessity for a self-government system.
We should oppose anything like this as drawing a rope around our neck. Let
the Army take care of everything. Stop taking action which might bring trouble
to our fellow people.
"Blood Brothers Corps concerned about the people."
On Friday and Saturday, November 6 and 7, the members of the Manzanar
Commission on Self-Government received letters via mail from the Blood Broth-
ers. The following 17 persons, comprising the commission, were recipients.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9437
Then follows a list of l7 persons who received two sets of letters.
Thoro weio two sets of letters, both in Japanese, apparently written by two
different jK-rsons.
Folldwuiii- is a literal translation of the shorter of the two letters:
'Thinlv of the shame the Aaierican (Jovernnient lias put us into. Think of the
disruption of properties, and the imprisonment of the Nisei.
"To start a self-government system now is nothing but a dirty selfish scheme.
As the Army put us in here with(Uit regard to our own will, we should leave
everytiiing up to the Army, whether they want to kill us or eat us.
"Because tliis is the only way the American Government can think of as a
means of absolving itj^elf from the blame of misconducting its affairs, the Gov-
eriunent thought of a bad scheme, that is, tins formation of tlie self-government
system.
"The hairy beasts (white) are out to actually run the Government while using
you people who can be used. It Ls evident if you read article 1 of the charter and
can be proved by the facts of the past. You fellows who are acting blindly are
big fools.
"If you do such things as those, which tighten the noose around the necks of
your fellow people, some day you will receive punishment from heaven, so
beware.
"Blood Brothers Corps which worry for their fellow people."
The longer of the two letters translated reads as follows :
Calling you fools who are running ai'ound trying to set up a self-government
system.
Think back. The fact that the positions, the properties, and the honor which
our fellow Japanese built up and won by lilood and sweat during the past 50
years have all been stamped and sacrificed by the ai'rogant and insulting
Arfterican Government after we have been put into this isolated spot.
For what are you beating around. What use is there for establishing self-
government V Especially with such a charter so full of contradictions? Although
we are ignorant people, we can foresee the tragic results which will come out
of this self-goveriuiient.
Remember that the majority of oiu- people ai'e absolutely against the self-
government .system. What do you think of the fact that 6 months ago in Santa
Anita, the same attempt which you are now trying, was made, to organize a
self-government. But it broke down before it materialized.
Leave everything completely as the Army pleases. If you nincompoops realize
the fact that you are Japanese, why don't you assume the honorable attitude
which is typical of Japanese? What a shameful sight you are about to present
by being fooled by the sweet words of the Government. By so doing you are
inviting suffering to your fellow Japanese.
We fellow Japanese are all like fish laid on the cutting board, about to be
sficed. To jump arouTid at this stage is a cowardly thing to do. Better lay
down and 1^'t the Government do as it pleases, either cook us or fry us.
i^ou should remain calm and conduct yourselves like nationals of a first-class
power. (Mve more thoughts and deep reflections as to your attitude.
Blood Brothers Corps, which is concerned over fellow nationals.
When these sio;ns or letters or communications were posted at Camp
IManzanai-, they were sometimes accompanied by the following words:
"Anyone wlio tear,-^ this down is a dirty dog of a stooge."
Mr. ]\IrxDT. Wlien the,>^e signs were posted, what was the experi-
ence? Were they permitted to be displayed for quite a while or were
they quickly removed ?
Mr. Slocum. Sir, the way it liappened Avas this: In most cases we
went to take them off and, naturally, send a copy to F. B. I. in Los
Angeles and the other copy went to the administration, and immedi-
ately interpretations wei'e made correct by two persons, so that we
know they were accurate. But usually we get some warning from
some pro-American loyal person that kitchen so and so got certain
signs and it said so and so, "Come and get them." So the police in a
car would go up there and tear them down, and we usually tore them
C:iG2G— 4:;— vol. 15 39
9438 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
right down, and nobody ever stopped us from tearing down, but we
were watched to see who were there in that car, and we were marked.
]Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever apprehend any of the fellows who were
putting them up ?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir. I made several suggestions that the barracks
opposite the mess hall where these things are usually put up be occu-
pied by the police department and we placed in relay certain watch-
men, but that didn't go through.
Mr. MuNDT. To whom did you make the suggestion ?
Mr. Slocum. To the chief of police over there.
Mr. MuNDT. A Caucasian?
Mr. Slocum. A Caucasian, and also to the chief of police at the
other place. But moving a barracks from one place to another is not
very easily done, so in one way or another that sort of a suggestion
never materialized.
Mr. MuNDT. Did the chief look with favor upon your suggestion ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; he did, but somehow it didn't go through,
sir.
Mr. MuNDT, On account of the difficulty of moving the barracks ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Further, according to this report, the two signatures
which appeared with the greatest regularit}^ on these posters were the
Southern California Blood Brothers Corps and the Manzanar Black
Dragon Society.
Then the report states that as a rule, or almost invariably, these
bulletins, slogans, or communications would appear on the bulletin
boards of all 36 places simultaneously. Then it took a pretty good
organization, did it not, to put posters up on 36 boards simultaneously?
Mr, Slocum. Sir, may I answer that, sir?
Mr. Matthews. Yes.
Mr. Slocum. To answer the last part, and I may elaborate just a
little bit on the first part, sir, it goes to show you, as I testified before
the Senate Subcommittee on Military Affairs, that the kitchen was
the first place that these Japanese factions, pro-Japanese factions or
groups controlled, because they know any gang's stomach was of first
consideration. Thus, they organized the kitchen crews and transpor-
tation, mail-delivery system, those vital positions; they saw to it that
they are grabbed and they had control. Tliat is how they got control
of the kitchen. That is why it went up simultaneously. Therefore,
I would say, sir, that the most of those people who were members of
those nefarious organizations were members of the kitchen crews in
the various places.
Mr. Matthews. You spoke of the pro-Japanese or disloyal elements
in the camps. Is it your experience that those disloyal elements
included Nisei, Issei, and Kibei alike?
Mr. Slocum. I would not say alike, but as I noticed the kind of help
they had in all the kitchens, I noticed they were mostly Isseis, per-
haps Isseis 75 percent and perhaps Kibei or pro- Japanese Nisei con-
stituting perhaps the balance.
Mr, JVIatthews, Twenty-five percent ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. That is about the way it ran, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. In this particular record right here, I think we
have not yet had a definition of these Japanese terms. It might be
' UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9439
well to introduce that, Congressman. A Nisei is an American citizen
of Japanese ancestry, is that correct?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. M.ATTHEWS. And an Issei is a Japanese-born alien; is that
correct ?
Mr. Slcctjm. That is right, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And a Kibei is an American-born citizen of Jap-
anese ancestry who has been sent back to Japan for an education
and then returns to this country ?
Mr. Slocum. That is right, sir.
Mr. Matthews. But, it is your observation, is it, thiit among all of
these groups there are to be found some who are still full Japanese
and disloyal to the United States?
Mr. Slocum. Definitely, sir. And as you read the manifestations
of these posters they set up in the typical Japanese militaristic
language, it goes to show you the very reason why we got kicked out
of California ; this kind of a thought premeditation among the lead-
ers of the pro-Jap factions, and they tend to spread that sort of
thought over the Niseis and younger Kibeis already have been im-
bued with this sort of conception of Jap philosophy. But that is
the kind of stuff that made the Californians doubt our loyalty and
since we look so much alike they don't know a good one from a bad
one, and that is why they had to take us out and put us in camps.
Air. Matthews. In other words, the Government, in the first in-
stance, initiated evacuation because it was difficult to distinguish be-
tween the loyal and the disloyal, merely on the basis of whether or
not they were born in this country ?
]\Ir. Slocum. No. They did that simply because they didn't know
a good one from a bad one, and the war was on, and at that time
there was possibility of invasion and things like that, riglit after
Pearl Harbor. As you remember, sir, on the Pacific coast, right
after Pearl Harbor, we were more or less jittery there, sir.
Mr. Matthew .>5. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this entire document
from whicli excerpts have been read be received for the record.
Mr, Costello. Just those latter pages?
Mr. IMatthews. Yes ; supplement 32 in its entirety ; its entire text.
Mr. Costello. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Slocum. May I make a short addition, sir?
Mr. Matthews. Yes.
Mr. Slocum. It mentions here about having attempted to put up
self-government, but it failed before it materialized. As I under-
stood, by common exchange of correspondence with a very pro-Amer-
ican-Japanese in that camp, this only was brought about by the pro-
Japanese leaders themselves by intimidating and threatening those
who were taking the leadership to create organizations of that sort,
sir.
Furthermore, even now there seems to be a tendency on the part
of some of the released Japanese in and around Chicago of organiz-
ing Japanese clubs and organizations. My opinion was asked and I
emphatically stated that there ought not to be any organization for
the duration, at least, because any gathering of Japanese in time of
war, right now, will tend to create misunderstanding and arouse
suspicion unnecessarily, and that in itself is not good.
9440 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
In wartime right now we should make that sort of a sacrifice.
But, they wrote back and said, "We are lonesome; we lack social
contact."
And I asked that they remember that the boys in the front line
trenches are lonesome, too, and they lack social contact. In that way
there is already beginning to crop up around Chicago, as I am tolcl,
a tendency to create Japanese organizations. If so, I think that is
very bad, because no matter whether they do it, there is some tend-
ency to bring in portions of a Japanism in any kind of a Japanese
organization.
My contention is that we should forget our national racial origin
and consider ourselves as a part of the American citizenry and forget
that we have any ties with Americanism and kind of lose ourselves
in the shuffle, sort of to speak, and reconstruct ourselves, because by
remembering forever "Japan, Japan, Japan," and everything is high-
f alutin with the Japanese and all this and that, that is the very thing
that landed us in the concentration camps.
Mr. MuNDT. I think you want to correct the record, Mr. Slocum:
You said to forget that we had any ties with America.
Mr. Slocum. Sure. I am sorry. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Matthews. From your experience at Manzana, did the Japa-
nese who were there look with favor on the idea of the Japanese
American Citizens League ?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Purporting to speak on their behalf?
Mr. Slocum. Oh, absolutely not, sir. They didn't think that the
Japanese American Citizens League represented their opinion and
they were verj^ much against it, sir.
Mr. Matthews. They were against the Japanese American Citizens
League ? '
Mr. Slocum. Yes, they were, sir.
Mr. INIatthews. Did you find sentiment strong against the J. A.
C. L.?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; very strong, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Even on the part of the Nisei ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; the Nisei themselves. That is why Fred
Tayama was beaten up, I am told.
Mr. Matthews. What was Fred Tayama's connection with the
Japanese American Citizens League?
Mr. Slocum. Well, he was southern district council president of
the Japanese American Citizens League, representing, I am not sure,
but I think around 26 chapters of the Japanese American Citizens
League before the war. And, he is also supposed to have capitalized
on his leadership by issuing passes, and so forth, from the United
States District Attorney's office for various people who walitexi to go
shopping or see somebody after freezing took place, and in that way
I understand that he created himself a lot of enemies, because he sort
of capitalized on the misfortunes of the Japanese people and made
money during that time. So that got him in a very bad grace about
that. I wottld say this, that a majority of the members of the Japa-
nese American Citizens League are good, loyal citizens, but a few
leaders like that may do very, very bad harm for the entire organ-
ization.
rN-AMEKICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS 9441
Then, too. as I stated before, in man}'- localities, many of tlie leaders
of the Japanese American Citizens Leafjue were used by the Central
Japanese Association or Japanese Association, or newspaper associa-
tion, or by the Jap Consulate, and so forth, are sort of a cats-paw,
front line spokesmen, to do some propaganda work or to carry on some
contact with American organizations or things like that, so it created
rather unfavorable impressions, sir.
Mr. Matthews. On or about May 22, 1943, did you attend a meet-
ing of the Japanese American Citizens League held at the Calvary
Baptist Church in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Slocum. 1 definitely did, sir.
Mr. JNIatthews. About how man3^ persons were present at that
meeting?
Mr. Slocu3i. I can't say for sure, sir, but I would judge it must
have been 25 or 30 people there, sir.
Mr. IMatthews. AVas that the larger number of Nisei residents in
the "Washington area?
Mr. SLOcuivr. Well, I was told at one time that there were about 50
Americans of Japanese ancestry around this vicinity, sir.
]Mr. ]Matthews. Was this strictly a meeting of the Japanese Amer-
ican Citizens League?
]\Ir. Slocum. I would say it was, and at this meeting Mr. Mike
]SIasaoka was chairman and main speaker, and he spoke on the
policies of the J. A. C. L. and aims they were striving for to liberate
the Japanese evacuees from the camps, if I remember correctly.
]Mr. Costello. Is this Mike Masaoka any relation to Joe Masaoka?
Mr. Slocu3I. They are brothers, sir.
]\lr. Costello. He is a brother?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; but Mike Masaoka is national executive
secretary of the Japanese American Citizens League and Joe Masaoka
now is head of the Japanesei American Citizens branch in Denver,
if I am not mistaken, sir.
Mr. Costello. I understood you to say this morning that he and a
lot of others were to be put to death at Manzanar.
Mr. Si.ocuM. Well, that is his brother, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did Mike Masaoka speak at this meeting for
approximately an hour, or longer?
Mr. Slocum. Well, I don't think it was over an hour, perhaps 45
minutes, sir.
Mr. ^Lvtthews. Did anyone else deliver a formal speech ?
Mr. Slocum. Mr. Saburo Kido, national president of the Japanese
American Citizens League, he spoke, sir.
Mr. Mattheavs. He was present and spoke ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. ISIatthews. Who presided at the meeting?
^Ir. Slocl'm. Mv. Masaoka.
Mr. Matthews. Did anyone else speak formally?
Mj-. Slocu^i. Formally', I believe Mr. Larry Tajiri spoke on the
Pacific Citizen, which is the newspaper of the Japanese American
Citizens League, and I believe he stated that their sub>crii)tion is
needed or would be appreciated, or something like that. That is
about all, sir, in a formal way, sir.
Mr. ;Matthews. Did you know most of the persons present, per-
sonallv?
9442 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Slccum, No, sir; I did not, sir. I knew quite a few of them
because I had met them since I have been here, but I did not know
the entire group.
Mr. Matthews. Did you meet Mr. Abe there that night; Mr. Paul
Abe?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir ; Mr. Abe was there.
Mr. Matthews. And Mrs. Abe?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And Mr. Kanazawa?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you meet the Kobayoshis, who are at present
worldng for Secretary of the Interior Ickes ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir; I met both the boys, Eoy and Fred Kobay-
oshis. For the first time I met them there that evening. They are
very nice, quiet boys.
Mr. Matthews. That is all. Do you have any further questions,
Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Slocum, among other things, this committee and
the country is interested in protecting our national security against
any subversive efforts on the part of disloyal Japanese; also in pro-
tecting the loyal Japanese themselves against any bodily harm or
economic operation or propaganda on the part of disloyal Japanese.
If that is to be done, it is very essential that there be a definite dis-
tinction made between loyal and disloyal citizens of Japanese ancestry.
I would like to ask for your opinion. Do you feel that it is possible
to make a positive distinction between a loyal and disloyal Japanese
in these relocation centers?
Mr. Slocum. Sir, I appreciate the goal toward which this good
committee is striving; therefore, I gladly came to submit myself to
any question you gentlemen care to ask of me.
In regard to answering your question as to differentiating loyal
from disloyal, I cannot say that 100 percent, but I can say pretty
close to 100 percent that differentiation can be made as to those who
are loyal to America and those who are not; first, by studying their
family history ; second, by the associations they keep and the kind of
church or educational background they have and kind of employ-
ment they have held, and also by asking them psychological questions
and also to ascertain if they were in Japan, and if so, for what pur-
pose, and see if their fathers or any of their relatives are in alien
enemy concentration camps at this time, picked up by the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, of course, and other methods, which other
Federal authorities know, I am sure, that the biggest percentage of
the people can be differentiated as to those who are loyal from those
who are not, sir.
I believe so, sir, and I fully appreciate if the loyal ones can be
fully protected, I would fully appreciate it, because they have been
trying so hard to do the proper thing.
I get letters from all over the camps. They ask me what can I do
for them. I said, "The only thing you can do is to appeal to your
Congressman, appeal to fair-minded Americans here and there and
all over and state the fact what you are really going through, but at
the same time, when you state these facts, let it be facts and nothing
else but facts."
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9443
Under that way I appeal to you, sir, that yon be good enough to
segregate the bad from the good and put the good ones where they
can do our Nation some good instead of eating up our taxpayers'
money. And tlie bad ones, you can put them in one phice and put
them under military rule, or whatever you deem necessary. But,
under the present set-up, I am just wondering, in view of the fact
that they have not taken definite rigid steps to segregate the good
from the bad — I appreciate tliat they are doing a thankless job,
but I am wcmdering, with tlieir internal security s3'Stem, the policing
they have now, I question whether they can carry out that program
the way they are going at it now, sir. I think that needs stronger
hands.
Mr. MuNDT. I recognize it is a tremendously difficult task to make
this segregation, and you recognize that, too. I wonder if you would
agree with me that under prevailing conditions it probably is to the
best interests of both this country and the loyal Japanese themselves,
that if we cannot do a perfect job, as you have indicated probably
cannot be done, that if we are going to make a set-up, we should
make it on the concept of being exceedingly careful so as not to
harm in an}^ way the loyal Japanese element.
Mr. Slocum. I do.
Mr. MuNDT. That would be a benefit to the Japanese themselves,
would it not ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. Because I know and you know that among certain
people, at least, on the Pacific coast, and especially today, there is the
feeling that all Japs are bad.
Mr. Slocum. That is not so. I want to go on record and say that
is not so, because I tell you the majority are good. And we have
been branded bad because things like this go on and the authority
doesn't suppress it. That makes me awfully mad too, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. I am from the section of the country where they used
to say the only good Indian was a dead Indian, but this country
was very much developed by the aid of the Indian scouts that came
to the rescue of the white men. However, that is a very difficult job.
From your observation at Manzanar, considerable improvement has
to be made before we have definitely a basis for making a segre-
gation, is that correct?
Mr. Slocum. Right, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Your testimony, I want to say, has been of immeas-
urable value to the committee, and I appreciate your fair-minded
attitude expressed in answering questions.
Mr. Slocum. Thank you very much, and I tried my very best.
And, anything I can do, I am at your service.
Mr. Maithews. Where are you employed at present ?
Mr. Slocum. "War Manpower, Occupational and Information De-
partment.
Mr. Matthews. Of the War Manpower Commission?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. How long have you been working there ?
Mr. Slocum. Since I* came here, around Januarv 20, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Of 1943 ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
9444 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS
Mr. Ererharter. Mr. Slocuni, what is your opinion, generally, of
the livinc: conditions of the Japanese in Manzanar ?
Mr. Slocum. The living conditions, sir? Well, sir, at best it is
bad, sir. At best it is bad, because it lacks privacy ; and at its best it
is bad, because there is that element of human favoritism that creeps
in, and certain people in the kitchen crew, for instance, they get the
cream of the things, and that is about the only reward they get.
And then, too, living conditions are bad because it seems to be hav-
ing sort of a moral degeneration effect on the people there. Perhaps,
if 1 may say it this way, the Japanese are pretty thrifty, hard-work-
ing people. ' They are known for that ; but now they are losing that
initiative, that sort of place, like the Indians on the reservation.
They feel like they want to be kept there for the duration ; they are
afraid to get out.
Like a letter I got the other day from a friend in Arizona ; they said
the boys that volunteered came back in American uniforms, landed
in Phoenix, and were refused service in a restaurant. Maybe they
were aliens. Well, they felt pretty bad that way.
Mr. MuNDT. I believe you are interpreting my remarks in connec-
tion with the belief that some people have, that the Indians have no
desire to stay on the reservation.
Mr. SxocijM. I thought the idea of the Indian was to stay on the
reservation, to take it easy. That is all I know about the Indians.
After all, I am a Jap, you know.
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Slocum. generally speaking, what are the
moral conditions of the camp i Do you know anything about that ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. It is our duty to keep tab on everything
and moral conditions. I suppose you consider delinquency, for among
10.000 people, as we have in the camp there, with limited recreation
and amusements, and so forth, we do have delinquency, sir, and what
I understand is the tendency is toward increasing it, I heard.
Mr. Eberharter. I would like to know whether or not, in your
opinion, the living conditions tend to bring about less satisfactory
moral conditions among those people living in the camp.
Mr. Slocum. I believe it does.
Mr. Eberharter. You think the moral conditions would be im-
proved if each family had an apartment instead of being compelled
to live in one room ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, they have that tendency right now. Efforts
are being made by W. R. A. to give one apartment to one family, sir,
and as the people go out, they are being more and more vacant, so
they are getting more and more the privacy as much as camp condi-
tions will permit.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, at jNIanzanar, did they not have each family
separated into at least one room?
Mr. Slocum. Yes. The effort was made toward that direction
that in each room either a member of the family or relatives live
there; in each apartment.
Mr. Eberharter. What you mean by "apartment" is a single room?
Mr. Slocum. Yes.
Mr. Eberharter. A single space?
' Mr. Slocum. A single space with so many beds in it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9445
Mf. EuKnirAiiTKR. And not se])arato(l, that is. the- families Avere not
sepai-ated. If there were three or four or five children, they all slept
in the same room witli the mother and father?
Mr. SLocr.Ar. Oh, yes: that is right; all in one room; yes, sir. We
have lost all sense of ])rivacv there.
Mr. Ebi:kiiai:tkh. And yon. believe that helps to contribute to the
degeneration of the moral life?
Mr. 8L0CUM. Yes, sir.
But. first of all. it is sort of a spiritual degeneration that is taking
place because they are in there, and all they hear and all they read
is about the Jap' is a Jap, abont anti-Japanism, resolutions passed
here and laws going to be passed there against the Japs. They say,
""U'liat is the nse ? 1 am afraid to get out. If vre do get out, we will
be kicked out." Then comes this propaganda like that that plays
right into these boys' hands.
Mr. Eberharter. Yon think they are losing the incentive they
might have had becanse of the conditions nnder which they are living?
Mr. 8L0cr:ir. Yes, sir: quite a few of them are losing incentive.
But if you segregate the loyal from the disloyal and again go on the
path of Americanism and give them the inspiration that they are
American-spirited, and if yon are protected by the duly constituted
authorities and the other officials, that Uncle Sam trusts you, do your
all to win the war, then a new feeling of life comes up.
But now it is sort of hopeless. We know^ that a certain clique is
no good, but if the authority does not segregate the good from the
bad, 3'ou still leave the good ones unprotected and there is no incen-
tive to make the report to the F. B. I. or the duly constituted author-
ity, because he will be beaten if he does.
'Mr. MrxDT. Mr. Slocum, you think if a proper examination was
made of each Japanese before he was released from camp and the
public was led to know that the examination had taken place and
was very thorougli, that a lot of resentment toward the Japanese
people w^ould be eliminated?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. If the immigration authority comes to you
and says, "Show me your passport,"' and you say "O. K." and show
him your passport, as^the result of that you are entitled to protection
by Uncle Sam. By the same token, if tliose people who are released
from the relocation centers are released by the duly constituted au-
thorities and be treated as citizens on the outside, why, then tlieir
morale would go up and their sense of security and regularity would
come back again.
JSIr. MuxDT. In other words, you believe there is a general feeling
all over the co^intry that no Japanese can be trusted ?
Mr. Slocum. Well, if you talk that way, you say these Japs haven't
been treated right and in that way you can suspect me.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. You mean, if they released both the loyal and the
disloyal ?
]Mr. Si.ocu:\r. Yes, sir. I know a case where an officer of the camp
itself told me. "I don't give a blank blank about loyalty or disloyalty.
If a thousand more of those workers are wanted, we will give them to
him." To that I objected. I said. "'Once you get us out, please make
sure that we are loyal and give us the stamp of aj:>proval if we are
loyal, and let us live and give us a chance to rehabilitate, because we
have been through hell long enough.""
9446 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS
Once we have been given freedom by an O. K. of this good com-
mittee, as well as by Uncle Sam and the duly constituted authorities,
please let us alone. That is the thing I have been appealing all the
time. But, so far it seems that it lacks that stamp of approval by the
duly constituted authorities, so it seems we are still under suspicion.
It is not fair.
Mr. MuNDT. In other words, there have definitely been some that
have been disloyal that have been released from the camps?
Mr. Slocum. I know so. I know two from Manzanar and when I
saw them I wrote to the F. B. I.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the very sort of situation that should be cor-
rected, that you cannot trust any Japanese.
Mr. Slocum. That is right, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. If the public did know that a thorough examination
had been made as it should be, and that everybody who is released is
a loyal Japanese and not a disloyal Japanese, I think it would break
down a whole lot of opposition to release.
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt' Do they have any work to do in the camps?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. They have a camouflage net factory, a
furniture factory, produce farm goods, more or less self-sustaining,
raising their own produce.
Mr. MuNDT. Are there enough opportunities for employment, for
those who want to work, in the center?
Mr. Slocum. I couldn't say as to that for sure, sir, because I was
not in the employment section, but I do know that a great majority
of the people were working, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And they were all paid $16 or $19 a month ; the wage
being paid to the Japanese?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuKDT. That was the salary?
Mr. Slocum. $19 was the salary.
Mr. MuNDT. Did many of the Japanese refuse to work because they
felt the wages were not sufficient ?
Mr. Slocum. No ; a lot of the Japanese refused to work because of
intimidation. In the early days of the camouflage factory, they said,
"Why work for camouflage ? It is going to hide the guns to kill the
Japanese." My God! You need a firmer grip so that the loyal
people in the camp who really want to contribute to this cause are
protected, because they make suckers of those, by beating those and
getting their wives insulted.
Mr. MuNDT. When did you leave Manzanar ?
Mr. Slocum. On Pearl Harbor anniversary, December 7, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And you have not been back there since?
Mr. Slocum. Oh, I don't want to go back. Don't you send me back^
Mr. Congressman. I have been a good citizen.
Mr. MuNDT. You were in there irom April to December ?
Mr. Slocum. About 8 months, $16 a month.
Mr. MuNDT. You were released then by W. R. A. to come back to
Washington?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Or how were you released ?
Mr. Slocum. I was released from there to my wife's mother's vege-
table farm, produce farm, where my folks have been for 35 years, and
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9447
they were short of help. So, we went there and my colonel, Colonel
Buxton, who is Assistant Director of Strategic Services here under
Colonel Donovan, Wild Bill Donovan, he heard about it and he says,
"Tokie, they can't do that with a boy from my regiment. Here is
$100. You come and help Uncle Sam here." I have been here ever
since.
jNIr. IMuNDT. Is your family here with you ?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir; they are out there still farming.
Mr. MuNDT. About how many beatings have taken place in Man-
zanar, different incidents?
Mr. SiocuM. Well, the violent ones, about six, I reckon.
Mr. MuNDT. There were quite a number of people who have been
beaten up from time to time ?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir. Some are a personal grudge, but most of
them are by the gangs, because of manifestation of Americanism and
things like that. ■
^Ir. MuNDT. Were a large number removed from Manzanar follow-
ing the December 7 riot there ?
Mr. Slocum. I don't know for sure, but I read somewhere that
about 12 or 14 of them were removed to a camp in Idaho somewhere,
sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Were those the troublemakers or some of the loyal
Japanese?
Mr. Slocum. No, they were definitely pro-Japanese troublemakers.
We suspected some of them to be Blood Brothers and Black Dragons ;
the kitchen leaders.
Mr. MuNDT. At least, they tried to remove some of the trouble-
makers from the camp?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Speaking of these different organizations, are any of
these organizations that have been spoken of, like the Dunbar Gang
or the San Pedro Corps, communistic in their tendencies or affiliations?
Mr, Slccum. If any group were communistic in that group, I would
say definitely that the Dunbar gang is very likely to be.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you found much communism among the Japa-
nese people ?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir; not very many, sir. A Communist, in Japa-
nese circles, is pretty well marked, and that is the first thing you hear.
If thoy don't like anybody, they say he is a Communist. That is the
first thing you hear, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Generally, the Japanese people do not approve of
comnnmism any more than the rest of the American people?
Mr. Slocum. That is true, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. During this morning's testimony there was some
indication that among the Japanese people there might have been
some previous information regarding the possibility of outbreak of
war between Japnn and this country. Did you at an}^ time have any
advance information yourself regarding a possible outbreak of war
with Japan?
Mr. Slocum. I didn't have any advance information. "V\Tiatever
information I got I cooperated with the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation and the United States Naval Intelligence, so as soon as I got
that, as soon as I got around and got it, why they got it right away,
sir, whatever information I had.
9448 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
But, one time when Kiirusu landed in Los Angeles, I was told by
a certain duly constituted Federal authority to cover that job. And,
I said ^'O. K."
Well, I said, "How can I cover him? I can't get near him."
"Well, thev said, "You cover him."
Isaid,"0. K." •
That was my assignment. I went over Little Tokyo. Japtown, in
the restaurants, and newspaper offices to try to get some information
as to what ^Ir. Kurusu was up to, and I couldn't get anything. But,
a couple of days after that an old friend of mine came knocking at my
door late at night and he says, "War, war, war."
I said, "What?"
He said, "War, war, war."
I said. "What is the matter? Are you crazy?"
He said, "No; I got something."
Well, I said, "Come in the house. We don't want the whole
neighborhood to know about it."
So he came in the house and he says, "There is going to be war,
Slocum."
I said, "Don't get excited."
He said, "Yes ; maj^be war already."
I said, "Tell me about it."
He said, "You know, I was at the vegetable market todav."
I said, "Yes."
He said, "iVnd Mrs. Ken Nakazawa met me at the market today
and said her husband was at a private banquet given in honor of
Kurusu at the home of the Japanese consul, 'Yoshida, and at this
banquet Mr. Kurusu was there."
I said, "Yes.';
"Yes," he said, "he was drunk and shaking his fist like this and he
said, 'Unless the Nanking Government is recognized, we will have
war.' "
I said, "Wait a minute ; say that again."
He said the same thing over again. And, he was absolutely sober.
He is a Christian man. He was telling me the truth as he got it.
I won't give this man's name because it is on the record.
1 said, "Wait a minute. That may be Jap propaganda which is
learning to have this kind of a news go around in the United States
so that they get their point."
He said. "No: I don't think so. He was drunk, you know, very
drunk, and shaking his fist, and he was very mad, and he says. 'Un-
less Nanking Government is recognized, we are goino; to have war.' "
So, I shot the news in, and they laughed at me. They said. "Tokie,
the Japs haven't got the guts to hit ns."
I said, "You are crazy ; now or never."
I said, "Wake up."
He said. "What do you mean ?"
I said, "The Japanese have the advantage on the Pacific coast,
tonnage and evervthing. We are not readv for it." I said, "My
God, wake up. This is the news I got and I am giving it the way
I got it.''
He said, "Thanks for the news. I am sleepy."
So, it turned out that really was how' it started and who was con-
trolling China there, and that was it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9449
Mr. C08TELLO. That was at the time Knnisu came in?
Mr. Slocum. At the time he lantled; yes, i^ir.
Mr. CosTELLo. That was the latter part of November?
Mr. Slocum. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. CosTELLO. Just before Pearl Harbor?"
Mr, Slocum. Yes : even before he landed in Washington.
Mr. CosTELLO. When he came he had information pretty well that
war was imminent.
Mr. Slocum. That is the way it seemed to me, sir.
;Mr. MuNDT. Have you at any time been able to confirm that this
incident at the banquet actually took place ?
Mr. Slocum. You know, by golly, I read in the newspaper about
3 or 4 weeks after Kurusu landed, I remember reading — I don't
think I was dreaming, sir — I remember seeing an article in the
newspaper to the effect that something like that had happened.
Mr. MuxDT. I think I read it myself.
Mr. Slocum. Good. I am glad somebody confirms it, because I
tliought I was dreaming. I thought that I read that Mr. Cordell
Hull and Roosevelt O. K.'d it.
Then the Chinese secretary seen this as put out and then they
raised the question — what do you call it — "Are you going to sell us
down the river after we fought these Japs all these years." and words
of that effect. Well, a week after Pearl Harbor was attacked.
'^Ir. MuxDT. You must be a Republican. We were reading tlie
same newspaper.
Mr. Slocum. Thank you. Well, I was also told to cover all the
names and addresses and occupations, telephone numbers, entering
into the United vStates, of all tlie Japanese who served previously in
the Imperial Army. Navy, or Marines. The F. B. I. came to me and
said. "There is good money in it."
"You know," I said, "blank blank, I don't fight for money." I
said. "You can pay me for gasoline, oil, and telephone calls and give
me lunch money for the time I am gathering all this information
for you."
This Avent to the F. B. I. I got all their names, but I attached
one condition. I don't want any mone;/ for this and I says, "You
have to let me handle this according to Jap psychology. Will you
give me a free hand ?"
They said, "O. K."
So I went to the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars
and the sheriff's office and notified them I was going to have a ban-
quet. At this banquet I said it was going to be a Dutch treat so
tliat nobody will be under obligation.
Before that I went to the leader of the Japanese Military Associa-
tion, Dr. Rikita Honda. I said, "Doctor, it looks like war. And
you know," I said, "If we American Legion men were in Tokyo
when war is declared, you know we would be the first ones to be
picked up. By the same token," I said, "if war does come, which it
look like, you fellows are going to be No. 1 to be picked up.'"
He said, "Do you know that?" I said, "Yes, sure. Call your
gang together. I am going to give them notice."
So. we got all of the veterans together at this meeting and I said,
"It looks like war between Japan and America, so it seems to me
that you ought to get things in shape.
9450 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
"By the same token, you made your livino; here, raised your family
here, and as a matter of gratitude you ought to make it as easy for
Uncle Sam as 3^ou can, because you are going to be No. 1 picked up.
So, don't you want to cooperate with our Government by giving us
your name and address right now ?"
They said, "Sure."
I said, "O. K."
So we passed the paper around and within 5 minutes had all the
names. Then the F. B. I. got all the names, and at the night of Pearl
Harbor they were picked up.
Dr. Honda committed suicide by slashing his wrists, and in his
death letter I understood he blessed me. That was only one or two
of the incidents of the services I rendered.
Then, on the night of Pearl Harbor I was summoned by the F. B. I.
to assist in the arrest of the leaders of the disloyal group. I gladly
did. We waited for an O. K. from the Attorney General, Mr. Biddle,
and by 11 o'clock at night it finally came, and we got our men.
Thus, it has been my idea to pay back the seivice of being a citizen
liere, and it has been a tough one only or mostly only because I have
been paying out my own money, and here I stood on the average
20 to 25 hours to watch this move and that move. But I am glad
to do it, and if there is anything I can do, Mr. Congressman, please
tell me and I will do it.
Mr. CosTELLo. We appreciate very much your coming before the
committee and the frankness with which you have testified ar.d the
information you have given to us, and I think it has been helpful.
Mr. Slocum. Thank you.
Mr. CosTELLO. I think it has been unfortunate that more of the
Japanese can not do the same thing. They might feel they would
suffer bodily harm or persecution in the event they gave information
to the United States Government. I feel because of the situation
that exists, many of those Japanese who want to be loyal are afraid
to sliow their loyalty to this country because the disloyal Japanese
would bring bodily harm to them, and until something is done to
curb the disloyal Japanese and restrain them from wreaking venge-
ance on those Japanese who want to be loyal, it is going to be a very
difficult situation. So, I appreciate your coming here. Thank you
very much.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you have any idea about how many people
belong to the American Legion, who were in the last war?
Mr^ Slccum. There were two posts of American Legionnaires.
One was in Los Angeles and the other in San Francisco, sir, but both
had their charters taken away from them, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Just roughly, how many were there in the country;
were there 10, 15, 100, 1,000, how many ?
Mr. Slocum. The members of the American Legion? I believe
there were pretty close to 500, sir, including Hawaii. In V. F. W.,
I believe there are about 50.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you very much.
Mr. Stripling. This morning reference was made to a letter which
Mr. Paul Abe had received from the War Department, advising him
concerning his status, the status of his application for a position in
the Map Section of the Army. You instructed Mr. Abe to furnish
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9451
the committee with that letter and I have it here. I ask that it be
made a part of the record.
IMr. CosTELLO. This is the letter he submitted to you from the War
Department?
Mr. Stripijng. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLo. AVithout objection, this letter will be inserted m
the record immediately following his testimony.
In view of the lateness of the hour and the impossibility of com-
pleting the testimony of another witness this afternoon, the com-
mittee is going to recess over until 10:30 tomorrow morning. All
the witnesses who are here under subpena are instructed to appear
here tomorrow morning at 10:30, when the committee will resume
its hearings.
The connnitee will now stand adjourned until 10 : 30 o'clock to-
morrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:15 p. m., the committee was in recess until
10 : 30 a. m., Friday, July 2, 1943.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
FIQDAY. JULY 2. 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee
TO Investigate Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcoinmittee met at 10:30 a. m., in Room 1301, House Of-
fice Buikling. the Honorable John M. Costello, chairman of the sub-
committee, presiding.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, Hon. Her-
man P. Eberharter.
Also present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; J. B. Mat-
thews, director of research for the committee.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. Mr. Stripling,
will yon call the first witness?
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. Kanazawa.
TESTIMONY or EMILIE AUGUSTA ALDEIDGE KANAZAWA— Kecalled
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Costello. State your name to the reporter.
Mrs. Kanazawa. My name is Emilie Augusta Aldridge Kana-
zawa.
Mr. Mattheavs. Where were your born, Mrs. Kanazawa?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I was born in Lexington, Ky.
Mr. Matthews. Where did you receive your early education?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I received my first education in Maxwell School,
Lexington.
Mr. Matthews. Did you finish high school in Lexington, Ky.?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; I did, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you go to the university?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes. I went to the university for 3 years and
one summer session.
Mr. Matthews. That was the University of Kentucky in Lexing-
ton ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Did the American Student Union have a branch
or chapter on the campus at^the University of Kentucky?
i\Irs. Kanazawa. At the time I was a freshman there there was a
group of al)oiit six or seven who were attempting to carry on a
chapter and I was invited to become a member and I did, for one
semester.
Mr. Matthews. Your answer is, "yes; there was a chapter.''
62626 — 4:^— vol. 15 40 9453
9454 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIElS
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. And you did join it for one semester?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is correct.
Mr. INIatthews. What year was that?
Mrs. Kanazawa. In the spring of 1940.
Mr. Matthews. What years did you attend the University of Ken-
tucky ? When did you enter ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I entered in the fall of 1939.
Mr. Matthews. And when was your last registration at the Uni-
versity of Kentucky?
Mrs. Kanazawa. January 1942.
JNIr. Matthews. January 1942, is that?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. INIatthews. Were there only six or seven members of the Amer-
ican Student Union on the campus?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is correct.
Mr. M \tthews. Who was the student leader of the American
Student Union there?
Mrs. Kanazawa. INIrs. Peter Gragis.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. Was there any instructor or professor who was
actively working with the American Student Union on the campus?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; a Mr. Frank Magee, an instructor in mathe-
matics was a member, and he worked very diligently.
Mr. IMatthews. How do you spell his last name?
Mrs. Kanazawa (spelling). M-a-g-e-e.
JNIr. Matthews. Do you recall what semester it was that you be-
longed to the American Student Union ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I believe it was the early part of 1940, from Jan-
uary to June.
Mr. Matthews. Did you have any special reason for not continu-
ing your membership in the American Student Union ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Matthews. What was your reason?
INIrs. Kvnazawa. In the national officers there was an election, and
the left-wing faction got control.
Mr. Costello. How is that?
Mrs. Kanazawa. The left-wing faction, the communistic section,
and at that time Russia and Germany were world allies, and the
particular faction that was controlling the Student's Union were will-
ing to overlook Germany in order to be aiding Russia, and I could
not quite agree with that policy.
Mr. Matthews. You differed with the national policy as it was
determined at the Milwaukee convention, I believe it was, was it not?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Which was in favor of the Nazi-Soviet pact of this
period.
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is correct.
Mr. Matthews. For that reason you dropped out of the American
Student Union?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is correct.
Mr. Matthews. Did you attend a meeting of the American Peace
Mobilization held in New York City in the early part of 1941?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir ; I did.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9455
Mr. Matthews. Well, now, were you a member of the American
Student Union at that time?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No; I was not.
Mr. Matthews. You had already left almost a year before.
]Mrs. Kanazawa. I still went around with the group who had for-
merly been A. S. U.'s, but, to my knowledge, there was no chapter on.
the campus at that time.
j\Ir. Matthews. Oh, you mean the chapter itself disappeared from
the campus ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes. I was responsible for that, because after
Peter Gragis had left the university I was asked to take the presidency,
and I didn't think that it was
Mr. Matthews. What month was it in 1941 that you attended the
meeting of the American Peace Mobilization in New York?
Mrs. Kanazawa. It was April 4 and 5 in New York City.
Mr. Matthews. How did you go from Lexington to New York?
Mrs. Kanazawa. A group of us drove up in my family's car.
JNIr. Matthews. In your family's car ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
JSIr. Matthews. Did any other students from the University of Ken-
tucky accompany you on that automobile trip to New York?
Mrs. Kanazawa. A Mr. Richard Centers.
Mr. Matthews. Had he been a member of the American Student
Union ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; he had.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know where he was from ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. He was from Paducah, Ky.
Mr. Matthews. Did any member of the faculty accompany you on
that trip to New York?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Mr. Magee was along.
Mr. Matthews. Frank Magee, who was an instructor in mathematics
at the university ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is correct.
Mr. Matthews. Did a Negro lawyer from Louisville, Ky., also ac-
company you on that trip ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
]Mr. ]\L\tthews. Do you remember the date on which you left Lex-
ington ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I believe it was Wednesday afternoon. I am not
sure about that, though.
JMr. ^Matthews. Was that 2 or 3 days before the morning of the
meeting in New York? .
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. That would have been April 1 or April 2 then.
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Of 1941 ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I believe that I left on April 2 in the afternoon,
from Lexington.
Mr. Matthews. "Wlio at the L^niversity of Kentucky was active in
promoting this delegation to the American Peace Mobilization in New
York?
9456 rx-AMERicAX propaganda activities
Mrs. Kaxazawa. Mr. Magee was going up there. It Avas hi.s idea,
and he suggested that it would be a good thing if two or three others
should go along.
Mr. jSIatthews. Had you heard much or anything about the Ameri-
can Peace Mobilization at that time?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No : I had not.
Mr. Matthews. Did you know that it had been organized in the
previous fall, in Chicago?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. I was pretty much ignorant of the American
Peojdes Mobilization until I attended the meeting.
Mr. Matthews. Well now, it was known at this time as the Ameri-
can Peace ^Mobilization and subsequently it changed its name to the
American Peoples Mobilization.
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. How long did it take you to drive to Xew York?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. I belieAe it took a day and a half. We drove
straight through.
Mr. Matthews. Did you reach New York on the day before the
beginning of the American Peace Mobilization convention or the same
day that it began ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. We reached New York the same dav it beo;an.
]Mr. Matthew^s. Where were the principal meetings of the American
Peace Mobilization held in New York?
. ]Mrs. Kaxazawa. There was Mecca Temple, I believe, on Fifty-
fifth Street, and that was the headquarters.
Mr. Matthews. Did you have a delegate's card or delegate's badge?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. When I got to the meeting I was registered as a
delegate from Kentucky, but aside from that I had nothing else.
yiv. jSIatthews. Did you have a membership card in the American
Peace Mobilization apart from your convention's membership ?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. I believe that I was identified as being an
A. S. U.'r. because we had to have some identification to get a delegate's
registration card.
Mr. Mattheavs. I see. You were technically, at least, a delegate
from the American Student Union at the University of Kentucky to
the American Peace Mobilization ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. Yes ; technically that is correct.
Mr. Matthews. Even though the American Student Union no
longer existed on the campus.
Mrs. Kaxazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Did Richard Centers have the same kind of cre-
dentials, so far as you know ?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. No; I don't know Avhat credentials he had.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know ami^hing about the credentials of
the Negro lawyer from Louisville, Ky. ?
Mrs. Kaxazaava. I believe that he was — I am not sure of this, but
I believe that he was from a communistic section of the party there.
I think that v\'as his credentials; I am not sure.
Mr. Matthews. Did he say anything in his conversation to indi-
cate that he himself was a Communist?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. No; he did not.
Mr. Magee had referred to a liberal organization in Louisville who
wanted to send a delegate, and it turned out to be this Negro lawyer.
Mr. Costello. What was the lawyer's name?
&
rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9457
Mr. ]\ [Ann i:\vs. Do yon recall the lawyer's name ?
Mr^. Kanazawa. Xo, sir; I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Abont how old a man was he ^
MrJ;. Kanazawa. I shonld say he was abont 43 or 44.
Mr. Matihew's. Yon do not happen to recall whether he was a dele-
gate frt)in the National Negro Congress, do yon ^
Mrs. Kanazawa. No; I don't.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever heard of that organization, the
National Negro Congress?
Mrs. Kanazawa. It is not familiar to me.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the credentials car-
ried by Instructor Frank Magee?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I am afraid I do not.
^Ir. ^Matthews. Did ^Ir. ]\lagee express his sympathies wath the
Comnuniist Party or the Comnntnist movement in your presence?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; he did a number of times.
Mr. Mattheavs. Did he ever tell you that he was a Communist ^
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; he did.
Mr. Matthews. Did he tell you that he was a member of the Com-
munist Party or that he was just a Comnuniist?
Mrs. Kanazaw^a. Well, as I remember him talking to me once, he
said that a number of the Communists thought it was better to be-
come members of the Democrat or Kepublican Party than to carry
on like that. He said — well, the reason he explained this was tliat
the Comnumist Party in Kentuck}^, in order to get a number, enotigh
of people in the party to have a vote, had taken the names from tomb-
stones and jail registers, and had made up a list of the communistic
membership, and that when that came out in one of the Kentucky
elections, the ones who were really Communist decided they would
become members of the other party and do it that way.
Mr. Matthews. Did you know at the time that that was revealed
by this committee before which you are now appearing?
Mrs. KANAZAW^A. No ; I did not.
Mr. Matthews. When you reached New York, at Mecca Temple,,
were you there in time to attend the opening session of the American
Peace Mobilization convention ? '
Mrs. Kanazaava. I believe I did. It seems to me that the meeting
was called to order in one of the large assembly places, and that who-
ever the man was named off a number of rooms in which the commit-
tees would meet, and there were, I should say, about 60 or TO com-
mittees that were going to discuss particular problems of labor or
membership or things in each room, and it seems to me that was the
beginning of the meeting.
Mr. AIatthews. In other words, because they announced at this
session the general routine of the convention, you understand that
that must have been the ojoening session.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; I think that was.
Mr. Matthews. Did you attend all of the sessions of the American
Peace Mobilization after your arrival?
Mrs. Kanazaava. No ; I did not. One of the reasons I didn't was
because I understand one of the Negro delegates from the West had
gone into a restaurant and he had not received the courteous treat-
ment that he thought he should, and he came back to the organization
and he told one of the leaders about his treatment, and. one of the
9458 UN-AMERICAK' PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
leaders jumped to his feet and asked for a delegation to go out there
and picket this restaurant. They seemed so willing to jump away
from their main purpose and go off on a tangent to any other thing, so
that I became rather disgusted with it.
Mr. Matthews. How many days did the convention last ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Friday and Saturday in New York, and it was
supposed to end with the picketing of the White House on Monday of
the next week.
Mr. Matthews. Did you come to Washington after the meetings
in New York?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Matthews. Did you join the picket line in front of the White
House ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Matthews. Do you recall the general slogans and purposes of
the American Peace Mobilization as they were expressed at the New"
York convention and also on the picket line in front of the White
House ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. "Keep America Out of the War," I think was the
most general slogan,
Mr. Matthews. Was the idea put to the forefront that the war in
Europe was an imperialistic war?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Matthews (continuing). In which the British Empire and
Germany were strup.gling over strictly imperialist issues?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. This was at the time when the Nazi-Soviet pact
was still in force, was it not?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Did you reach the conclusion at the meeting of the
American Peace Mobilization in New York that the organization was
definitely a Communist Party enterprise?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Matthews. Or had you already been aware of that before you
went to New York ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I was not aware of that until I attended the
meeting.
Mr. Matthews. Were you further convinced of that by the picket
line before the White House ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. The picket line before the White House did not
seem communistic to me; I mean, it was other things that convinced •
me that the organization was communistic.
Mr. Matthews. Can you state briefly, or would you care to state
briefly what some of those things were that convinced you that the
organization was Communist?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Well, the thing that convinced me most was that
so many of the people there were willing to overlook Germany in
order to aid Russia and the number that were willing to go to
Russia's behalf, I mean, such as enlist in the Russian Army, and
things of that sort, and quite a few of them were blaming the war on
America and her imperialistic policy.
Mr. Matthews. At the convention of the American Peace Mobili-
zation in New York did you become acquainted for the first time with
your husband ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9459
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Matthews. His name is Joe Tooru Kanazawa ?
Mrs. Kakazawa. That is correct.
Mr. ^Matthews. Was he a delegate to the American Peace JNIcbiliza-
tion, so far as you know ?
Mrs. Kanazawa, No; he was not.
Mr. Matthews. Did you meet him in connection with any of the
meetings of the American Peace Mobilization^
Mrs. Kanazawa. No. I understand that he and Larry Tajiri were
there. It was my impression at the time that Larry was covering
that for an Asahi paper, I believe.
Mr. Matthews. For what paper?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Asahi, that Japanese section of the — connected
with the New York Times.
Mr. CosTELLo. Repeat that, please.
Mrs. Kanazaw^a. I was under the impression that my husband was
there in the company of Larry Tajiri, who was covering this meeting
for the Japanese newspaper.
Mr. Matthews. Was that the Tolr^o Asahi ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Tokyo Asahi had a branch office in New York
City and Larry was working for it.
Mr. JMatthews. It was your understanding that he was working for
the Tokyo Asahi ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. And covering the American Peace Mobilization?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. For that paper?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you meet Larry Tajiri and your husband at
the same time ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Matthews. Was that at a meeting of the American Peace
Mobilization or somewhere else in the city ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. On Saturday afternoon, Eepresentative Marcan-
tonio and Paul Robeson had been scheduled to talk to a large delega-
tion of this meeting out at Tri-Boro Stadium Hall. It started raining
and the meeting was called otf, and we were reported or instructed to
report back to Mecca Temple. On the way I became separated from
the Kentucky delegation. And I saw Mr. Tajiri and my husband, and
I asked them the way back to Mecca Temple, because I was very un-
familiar with New York transportation facilities, and they very kindly
offered to take me there, because they were going the same way, and
I accepted. That is how I met him.
Mr. Matthews. And they took you Hack to Mecca Temple, to the
meeting?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Did your acquaintance, made at that time, under
those circumstances, then ripen into a friendship which eventuated
into marriage?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. When were y(;u and Mr. Kanazawa married?
Mrs. Kanazawa. December 3, 1911.
Mr. M\tthews. Where were you married?
Mrs. Kanazawa. In Baltimore, Md.
9460 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Did Mr. Kanazawa visit you in Kentucky subse-
quent to the meeting of the American Peace Mobilization in April, in
New York ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; he did. In June and in September of 1941.
Mr. jMatthews. Do you recall what Mr. Kanazawa was doing at
the time you met him ; what his occupation was ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. He was doing free-lance writing.
Mr. Matthews. In the meantime, that is, between April and De-
cember, did he become ass(,ciated with the Japanese American Citi-
zens League, or was that still later ?
Mrs. Kanazawa, No ; as far as I know, he did not.
Mr. Matthews. Did his connection with the Japanese American
Citizens League come about after your marriage ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, it did ; in June of last year.
Mr. Mai thews. When did you come to Washington?
Mrs. Kanazawa. August 8, 1942.
Mr. Matthews. AVell, now, after your marriage to Mr. Kanazawa,
I believe within a day or two you returned to Lexington, Ky.; is that
correct ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is correct.
Mr. Matthews. And did you resume your studies at the University
of Kentucky?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Matthews. Did you continue there for the rest of the aca-
demic year until the spring of 1942 ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Matthews. And then in August you came to Washington ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. That is, in August of 1942?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is correct.
M]\ M vtthews. In the meantime had you taken a civil-service ex-
amination?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; I had. I had taken civil-service for junior
typist.
Mr. Matthews. And you passed that examination?
Mrs. Kanazawa, That is right.
Mr. jM'iTthews. As the result of that examination, you received a
notice that employment was waiting for you in Washington?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is true.
Mr. Matthev/s. And came to Washington and took employment
with what agency of the Government ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Office of Defense Transportation.
Mr. Matthews. Office of Defense Transportation ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes,
Mr, Matthews. As junior typist?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. IMatthews. At what salary?
Mrs. Kanazawa. $1,440.
Mr. Matthews. Do you still hold that same position ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; I do.
Mr. M'vtthews. You have held that position for almost 11 months,
then ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is true.
Mr. MuNDT. What salary do you get now ?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9461
Mr.-^. Kaxazaava. The same salary.
^Ir. Matthews. In June of 1942 did ]\Ii'. Kanaznwa come to Wash-
in«j;ton to take up work with the Japanese American Citizens League?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; he did.
^Ir. MvTTHEws. He was already here, therefore, when you arrived?
]Mrs. Kanazawa. That is true.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Did you then, on your arrival, take an apartment
or eventually take an apartment with your husband?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes: I did.
^Ir. jMatthews. What is your present address?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I live in apartment 5, 1324 Fourteenth Street.
Mr. INIattiiews. 1324 Fourteenth Street?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is ritrht.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. During the past 10 or 11 months have you had oc-
casion to learn of the activities of the Japanese American Citizens
League in a general waj' ?
]\Irs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Matthews. Have you become acquainted with Mike Masaoka?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; I know Mr. Masaoka well.
]Mr. Matthews. He is national secretary, is he, of the Japanese
American Citizens League?
Mrs. KANAZAW^\. Yes; he is.
Mr. Matthews. What position in the Japanese American Citizens
League does your Ifusband hold, or what position has lie held ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. He Avas the eastern representative of the J, A.
C.L.
Mr. ]NL\tthews. When did he relinciuisli that position to go into
the Army ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. May 21, 1943.
Mr. Matthews. Of this .year. In the course of your learning of
the activities of the Japanese American Citizens League during the
past 11 months, did you ever express the belief that the Japanese
American Citizens League was in too close collaboration with the
War Relocation Authority and that some trouble might come as the
result of that ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I know I didn't express it that way.
Mr. Matthews. Well, how did you express any idea that approxi-
mates that?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I made the remark once to my husbancl that I
didn't think it was a good idea for the W. R. A. to be releasing con-
fidential information to the J. A. C. L.
]Mr. Matthews. Had you learned that the W. R. A. was releasing
confidential information to the J. A. C. L. ?•
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I had.
Mr. ^Iatthews. And you learned that because you were residing
at the temporary headquarters of the J. A. C. L. in Washington where
your husband was an official ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. Did you yourself become a member of the Japanese
American Citizens League?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No; I did not, at no time,
Mr. Matthews. What other i^rominent officials of the Japanese
American Citizens League did you come to know ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I met Dr. Yatabe.
9462 TJN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Spell that name, please.
Mrs, Kanazawa. Y-a-t-a-b-e. He was the representative in Chi-
cago. I met Saburo Kido.
^Ir. Mattheavs. He was national president or chairman of the
organization; is that right?
Mrs. Kanazawa. President. He was here in May 1941.
Mr. Matthews. Yon mean 1943?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I mean 1943.
Mr. MuNDT. Is he from Salt Lake City ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; he is. Well, I Imew Larry Tajiri.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. You had met him at the American Peace Mobili-
zation in New York?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes. He was editor of the Pacific Citizen.
Mi'. Matthews. Did you attend a meeting of the Japanese Ameri-
can Citizens League held at tlie Calvary Baptist Church in Washing-
ton on -or about May 22, 1913?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; I did.
JNIr. ISIatthews. Was yoiir husband in the city at that time?
ISIrs. Kanazawa. No. He had left the day before for Camp Lee.
. JNIr. Matthews. Did Mike Masaoka preside at that meeting?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; he did.
Mr. INIatthews. Did Mike Masaoka make the principal speech at
that meeting?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; he talked for somewhere from 45 minutes to
an hour and a half.
Mv. Matthews. Did a considerable conversation occur at the end
of that meeting, or toward the end of it?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Stemmie Murayama began heckling, began asking
questions about the J. A. C. L. and ratlier ridiculing Mike, and the
efforts of the J. A. C. L , and Tokie Slocum interrupted him and
began talking, and when he did, no one else was able to get the floor,
and that was the thing that caused the tension.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you remember what Tokie Slocum was talking
about?
Mrs. Kanazawa. He talked about a number of things.
Mr. INIuNDT. What was the trend of his remarks?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Well, he talked about the activities of the J. A.
C. L. and he stood on the good things that the J. A. C. L. had done.
He told of the attacks made upon him and how he had always stood
up for being an American, and he mentioned about the leaders of the
J. A. C. L. going into the Army.
Mr. Matthews. Did he speak at some length?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; he did.
INIr. Matthews. While he was speaking, was Stemmie Murayama
also trying to speak, or actually speaking?
Mr. Kanazawa. It seemed to me that way. Stemmie had made
quite a few remarks before Tokie began speaking, though.
ISIr. Mattheavs. And can you identify Stemmie Murayama further?
Wlio is he ? How did you come to know him ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I met Stemmie on November 28, 1941. He was
attending a meeting of which Paul Abe was then president, on
California Street.
Mr. Matthews. Was that the Washington Young People's League?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; it was.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9463
Mr. Matthews. Did you attend the meetings of the organization,
the Washington Young People's League, frequently?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I attended that one meeting.
Mr. IMatthews. Just that one meeting?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. ISIatthews. Paul Abe at that time was president?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; he was.
Mr. jSIatiiiews. Did j'ou know his predecessor, Mr. Inouye ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I didn't know Mr. Inouye.
Mr. INIatthews. That was approximately a week before Pearl
Harbor; is that correct?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. And there you met Stemmie Murayama?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr, JMatthews. Did you have any other acquaintance with Mr.
Murayama ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I had seen him a couple of times here in Wash-
inerton since I had been here, and I remember he was at Amv Sasaki's
apartment.
Mr. ^Matthews. Do you know where Mr. Murayama is at the present
time?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No ; I do not. He is in Washington, but I don't
know his address.
Mr. Matthews. Now, at this meeting on May 22 at the Calvary
Baptist Church, approximately how many persons were present?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I should say between 35 and 40 were there.
Mr, Matthews. What was your impression of the purpose of the
meeting, in general ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Well, I had understood that this meeting was to
call all the Washington Nisei together and introduce Saburo Kido
and Larry Tajiri and to talk about the things that the J. A. C. L.
had done; to raise membership and also money for the J. A. C. L.
Mr. Mundt. Whj^ should an argument ensue in a meeting like that?
Was Stemmie finding fault with what Tokie was saying? Was that
the cause of the dissention ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No ; Stemmie was finding fault with the J. A. C. L.
There were several Nisei besides me, and from our past conversations
and things, we were under the impression that Stemmie knew about
the J. A. C. L., and when he jumped to his feet and said that he knew
nothing about it, and that people in Washington had hardly heard
of it except to hear malicious things, we knew that he was not telling
the truth. So Tokie began answering his remarks, and that was what
caused the tension. The thing was that Mike had wanted to have
questions about the policy of J. A. C. L. and the problems of the
people in the relocation camps, and when Tokie and Stemmie started
talking, the meeting took an entirely different turn.
Mr. Mundt. More or less of a personality clash rather than a matter
of policy?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Were the records of the J. A. C. L. kept in your
apartment, apartment 5, at 1324 14th Street NW.?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; they were.
ISfr. Matthews. Were they in your apartment on or about June 11,
1943?
9464 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr, Matthews. On that date were you served with a subpena to
deliver those records to an agent of the Special Committee on un-
American Activities?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Matthews. And did you turn over the records to that agent?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; I did.
Mr, Mattheavs, Did you request any person or persons to witness
the turning over of those records?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes; I did. I went over and asked Mr. and Mrs.
Abe to come over and witness the records.
Mr. Matthews. I presume that was because you were not quite
sure of these procedures. Had you ever been served with a subpena
before ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No. I had not.
Mr. IVIuNDT. At the time you met Joe Kanazawa, I think you said he
was engaged in free-lance writing?
Mrs. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Mtjndt. Had he made any sales of his writings up to that timel
Mrs. Kanazawa. A few ; not many.
Mr. Mundt. Do ^^ou recall any of the papers or magazines to whom
he sold those articles ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No; I do not.
]\ir. IVIuNDT. Subsequent to your having met him, did he continue as
a free-lance writer?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Mundt. Was he selling writings then ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. He was not very successful. His writing lacked
the punch necessary to put it across.
Mr. Mundt. Do you remember any place where he sold articles after
you became acquainted with him, so that j^ou might be following his
work more closely ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I am sorry. I missed that question.
Mr. Mundt. Do you remember any place where he sold articles after
you became acquainted with him ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No. Gene Bolles was his literary agent. He was
doing quite a bit of typing. I believe that was what kept him sup-
ported.
Mr. Mundt. He made his money that way?
Mr. MATTHEW^s. By the way, is your husband an expert typist ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes ; he is. He is very good.
Mr. Mundt. It appears from your testimony that during your early
da^^s at the Universitv of Kentucky — was it?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt (continuing). You were acqiuiinted with some Com-
munist down there. Professor Magee and other gentlemen. Were you
ever a member of the Communist Party yourself?
Mrs. Kanazawa. No ; I was not.
Mr. Mundt. Did Dr. Magee ever suggest that you join?
Mrs. Kanazawa. Well, several of the boys thought, or several of
them became rather disgusted with me and said it would be a good
thinir if I became a Communist, because I had read quite a bit of the
communistic tlieories and ideas, and yet I could always find something
wrong with them.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9465
Mr. ^luNDT. You always found something Awong with them?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. That is right.
]\lr. ]MuxDT. How far did you get in your university studies ?
Mrs. Kanazawa. I coinpleted my junior year. I was majoring in
law.
^Ir. MiNDT. In hiw?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. That is right.
Mr. ^Ii'XDT. At that time you were married; in your junior year?
Mrs. Kaxazaava. xVt the time I was married, yes; in the first part
of my junior yeav.
Mr. MuxDT. Is Dr. Magee still at the University of Kentucky ?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. I have lost contact wnth him since I came to
Washington. I don't know.
Mr. MrxDT. Did you attend any of his classes down there while you
were at the university i
!Mrs. Kaxazawa. No.
Mr. MuxDT. He taught mathematics?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. That is right.
Mr. MrxDT. You do not know whether he intermingled a little
mixed philosophy' in the classroom or not ^
Mrs. Ivax^azawa. I don't know that.
Mr. Ml XDT. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLo, The meeting held at the Calvary Baptist Church by
the J. A. C. L., was the purpose of that to obtain new members for
the J. A. C. L. ?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. Yes, sir. I said that it was.
Mr. CosTRLLo. There was a drive on at that time to get all the Nisei
in "Washington to join the J. A. C. L. ?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. That is right.
Mr. C08TELLO. Did they have any solicitation for membership at
that time?
Mrs. Kaxazawa. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. Because of the change in the temper of the meeting
they did not actually solicit membership then ?
Mrs. Kaxazaw^v. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is all.
Mr. Stkiplixg. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kanazawa, for appear-
ing here this morning.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Stiuplixg. The next witness is Mr. Kanazawa.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH TOOKU KANAZAWA
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
^Ir. CosTELLO. State your full name to the reporter.
Mr. Kaxazaw^a. Joseph Tooru Kanazawa.
Mr. Stkiplixg. Where were you born?
Mr. Kaxazaw^\. Spokane, Wash.
Mr. Strii'lixg. What was the date, Mr. Kanazawa ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. Novemiber 12, 1906.
Mr. Striplixg. Where were your parents born?
Mr. Iv.\xazawa. They were born in Yonezawa, Japan. That is a
citv.
9466 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stripling. Are yonr parents now living ?
Mr. Kanazawa. My mother is living.
Mr. Stripling. Your mother is living ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. wStriplino, Where is she now?
Mr. Kanazawa. She is at Poston relocation center.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have any brothers?
Mr. Kanazawa. I have one brother.
Mr. Stripling. Where is he located?
Mr. Kanazawa. He is at Morningside Sanitarium, Portland, Oreg..
Mr. Stripling. Ycu had a brother who was interned at one of the
relocation centers who recently died ?
Mr. Kanazawa. He was in internment at Lordsburg, N. Mex.
Mr. Stripling. Why was he in the internment camp ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I think he was waiting for a hearing for
release. He had been up in Alaska, and I think they were just hold-
ing ]iim before they gave him a release. I know he was making an
appeal to have a hearing at that time.
Mr. Stripling. Did your brother die from natural causes ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe it was cerebral hemorrhage.
Mr. Stripling. It was a natural cause, so far as you know ?
Mr. Kanazawa. So far as T know, it was ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever stated that you thought his death
was brought about by treatment he received in the internment center ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I did not.
Mr. Stripling. You have not ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No.
Mr. Stripling. What is your educational background ?
]\Ir. Kanazawa. I got my degree at the University of Washington,
in journalism, B. A.
Mr. Stripling. What years were you there ?
Mr. Kanazaava. 1925 to 1931.
Mr. Stripling. Will you state your employment record from the
time you graduated from college?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, it started back during my college years. I
was working for the Japanese American Citizens League on part-
time basis while I was going to school, and then after graduation I
worked for the paper until 1932.
Mr. Stripling. What was the paper?
Mr. Kanazawa. The Japanese American Citizens League, I mean,
the Japanese Courier; a weekly.
Mr. Stripling. Where was it published ?
Mr. Kanazawa. In Seattle, Wash.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the publisher ?
Mr. Kanazawa. James Y. Sakamoto.
Mr. Stripling. What was your position with the paper?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I started in as reporter and ended up as asso-
ciated editor.
Mr. Stripling. Associate editor ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. While you were with the Courier, was there ever a
charge made that it was subsidized by the consulate of the Japanese
Government ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITLEiS 9467
Mr.IvANAZAWA. Not SO far as I know, sir.
Mr. tSTRiPLiKG. Do you know whether it was subsidized for propa-
ganda ])urposes?
Mr. Kanazawa. Insofar as I know, it was not, I know Jimmie had
an awful time to keep it going, but he usually managed to pay from
Jiis advertisements.
Mr. SxEirLiNG. Was Sakamoto an American citizen?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes ; he was and is.
Mr. Stripling. What was your next employment ?
Mr. Kanazawa. In 1932 I went down to Los Angeles and I covered
the Olympic Games for Rafu Shimpo.
Mr. Stripling. Will you explain what "Rafu Shimpo" is?
Mr. Kanazawa. It is the vernacular newspaper of Los Angeles. It
is the Los Angeles Daily News, I believe. I am not positive on that.
Mr. Stripling. The committee members cannot hear you.
Mr. Kanazawa. I am sorry.
Mr. Costello. Talk a little louder, and I think we can all hear.
Mr. Kanazawa. Thank you. And I worked for that paper until
the fall of that year. 1932, and then after that I worked in one of the
markets in Santa Monica, and I think it was in about the first part
of 1933 that I returned north and worked with Jimmy for a while,
and then in
Mr. Stripling. That is Jimmy Sakamoto.
Mr. Kanazawa. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. You went back to work for the Courier.
Mr. ICanazawa. Yes ; for about a year.
Mr. Stripling. What was your title when you went back?
Mr. ICanazawa. The same ; associate editor.
Mr. Strlpling. Was this paper published in the English language ?
Mr. Kanazaava. It was all in English.
Mr. Stripling. Go right along.
Mr. Kanazawa. Then, in 1931, I went up to Juneau, Alaska. My
brother. Bob, who just died at Lordsburg, had gone up there and had
obtained a job, and he called the rest of my family up there, so I went
up there with him, and in December of that year I got a job as driver,
bookkeeper, and so forth, for the Juneau laundry, and I worked with
them until
Mr. MuNDT. Was that a Chinese laundry ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No; Japanese laundry. And I worked with them
about 414 years, which would make it about — I think it was September
of 1938 I came out again to the States.
Mr. Costello. What type of work was your brother doing in
Alaska ?
Mr. Kanazaw^\. He w'as a waiter in a restaurant there. By the
way, this Juneau, Alaska, is^ where I spent, where I went to school as
a child since I was 6 years old.
Mr. Stripling. Wliere did you go after 1938 ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I went down to Los Angeles. My mother was
living there at that time and my two married sisters. I spent about
1 year down there free lancing and then in 1939 I came to New York
City, where I also continued my free-lance writing.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you recall any of the publishers to whom you sold
articles?
9468 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kanaza-\ya. Well, I was not very successful, but I sold to the
Christian Science Monitor, Common Ground, and to Thrilling Sports.
Mr. MuNDT. Field and Stream?
Mr. Kanazaava. Thrilling Sports. And then in July — I want to
correct my wife's statement; I came to Washington in July of last
year to take over the job with the J. A. C. L.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the extent of your publication or free-lance
writing?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, it was.
Mr. MuNDT. Those three.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes. Of course, I did a lot of writing for the
English section of the vernacular press on the west coast, for the
Rafu Shimpo and the Japan-California, I think it was, and the
Courier and the Hokubei in Seattle.
Mr. MuxDT. Were those writings in the form of reportorial items?
Mr. Kanazawa. Mostly articles, sir.
Mr. ISIuNDT. Mostly articles ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. jMttndt. About what?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, during 1932 when I went down the coast,
I had been trying to make a survey and study of Japanese conditions
on the coast. Well, it was mostly statistical at that time because I
was trying to get the break-doAvn of the Japanese population in
Issei and Nisei, in male and female, and so forth, and so on along
that line. And I think you would find those in the files of the
Japan-American Courier where they were printed.
Mr. MuNDT. Cordd y<>u supply the committee with the dates? Do
you have a scrap book? All of us writers have a scrap book, you
know.
Mr. Kanazawa. No, I don't carry a scrap book. But that was in
the spring of 1933 that you would find them in the Courier.
Mr. IMuNDT. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. Will you state all the organizations which you haA^e
been a raeraber of ?
Mr. Kanazaava. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Those that you can recall.
Mr. Kanazaava. Yes. Of the Japanese American Citizens League
I became a member with my taking oA'er the job last year. I belong
to the Japanese American Committee for Democracy in NeAV York
City, and I belong to an organization called the Young American
Writers in New York City. Those are the three main ones.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the League- of American
Writers ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I was not.
Mr. Stripling. You Avere not a member of the League of Amer-
ican Writers?
Mr. Kanazaava. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you attend the American Peace Mobilization
couA^ention ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I AAcnt there as an auditor.
Mr. Stripling. As an auditor?
Mr. Kanazaaa^a. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. What office did you hold ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Where?
/
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9469
Mr. INIiTXHT. Yoii srtid you were there as an officer.
Mr. Kanazawa. No; as auditor.
Mr. Matthews. Please speak louder.
Mr. Kanazawa. I am sorry. I will trj'^ to speak louder.
!Mr. Stkiplixg. Were you one of the oriojinal organizers of the Jap-
anese American Committee for Democracy'^
Mr. Kaxazawa. Well, I was one of the early members of it, one of
the first Xisei members, I should sa}' .
]Mr. Striplixg. Who organized the Japanese American Committee
for Democracy t
Mr. K^k^^AZAw^v. I believe Yeshitaka Takagi.
Mr. Striplixg. He was the executive secretary?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; he was.
Mr. Striplixg. Is he a a citizen of this country?
Mr. Kaxazawa. He is not.
Mr. Striplix'^g. He is not a citizen?
Mr. Kaxazawa. Xo.
Mr. Striplixg. What position did K. Nakano hold?
Mr. Kanazawa. He was chairman at one time, just directly before
his induction in the Army.
]Mr. Striplixg. And N. Nakanuira : what was her position?
Mr. Kax'azawa. That was Natalie Nakamura. Let me see. She
has held various offices. I really don't remember what.
Mr. Striplixg. Were you tlie recording secretary of Japanese
American Committee for Democracy?
Mr. Kaxazaava. At one time ; yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Were you familiar with the members of the advis-
ory board of the Japanese Amei'ican Committee for Democracy?
Mr. Kaxazawa. I w^as; yes. sir.
Mr. Striplix-^g. Can you lecall the names of the members of the
advisory board?
Air. Kaxazawa. I can.
Mr. Striplixg. Would you name them?
Mr. Kaxazawa. At that time t
Mr. Striplixg. Yes.
Mr. Kaxazawa. Bishop McConnell, of New' York City; Gayland
Fisher, of Orinda, Calif.; Roger Baldwin, of the American Civil
Liberties Union; Albert Einstein: and this anthropologist at Colum-
bia. Franz Boas; and Pearl Buck.
Mr. Striplixg. Was A. Claj'ton Pyle. Jr., a member of the advisory
board?
Mr. Kax'azawa. Let me see. I believe he became later; I am not
))ositive.
Mr, Striplixg. AVas Katlierine Teriill a meinl)er?
Mr. Kaxazaava. She was: yes.
Mr. Striplixg. AVhat wjis the ])urpose of the organization?
Mr. Kaxazawa. Well, it was an Americanization group, and it was
militantly anti-Fascist in its ])olici('S.
Mr. Striplixg. Was it pro-Connnunist?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, in a sense, that I think you could call it that;
yes. I would not sav it was Conununist, however.
Mr. Striplixg. Would you say it was definitely pro-Communist,
though ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I think it favored some of its policies; yes.
62626— 43— vol. 15 41
9470 IJN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Mr. Strii'Lixg. When you came to Washington, Mr. Kanazawa, to
go with the Japanese American Citizens League, did you resign from
the Japanese American Committee for Democracy ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I resigned from the executive board, but not as a
member.
Mr. Stripling. While you were writing, free-lancing in New York,
did you at any time work for any magazine or publication which was
engaged in propaganda activities on behalf of the Japanese Govern-
ment?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I did proof-reading for Mr. Rasche, I believe
R-a-s-c-h-e, I believe it is spelled, of the World-Telegram, who was
working on the Japanese- American Review ; I mean who worked for
the Japanese-American Review.
Mr. Stripling. What is the Japanese-American Review ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe it is called the cultural publication.
Mr. Stripling. Was it engaged in Japanese propaganda?
IMr. Kanazawa. I believe it was ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. It was?
Mr. Kanazaw^a. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Is that 57our only connection, so far as you know,
with any publication or individuals who were engaged in Japanese
propaganda ?
Mr. Kanazaava. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. May I ask a question at that point?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, sir.
JMr. Matthews. Mrs. Kanazawa spoke of your doing some writing
for the Tokyo Asahi.
Mr. Kanazaava. No; I did not; but Larry Tajiri was employed by
the Tokyo Asahi, the New York Bureau of the Tokyo Asahi, and I
accompanied him to the meeting, that was all.
Mr. Matthews. Were you assisting him in that work?
Mr. Kanazawa. No; he was just a friend of mine.
Mr. Matthews. Were you covering the American Peace Mobiliza-
tion for any foreign paper?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I was not.
]Mr. Matthews. But Larry Tajiri was working for the Tokyo Asahi.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. ^Vlien you came to Wasliington and joined the
J. A. C. L., what position did you accojit with that organization?
Mr. Kanazawa. I was given the official title of eastern represent-
ative.
Mr. Stripling. Eastern representative?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you work with Mr. Mike Masaoka?
JVFr. Kanazawa. Yes; I was his assistant, and when he was away
from the city, I stood iji for him.
Mr. Spripling. H*:^ vras the national secretary of the organization?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; he was.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever visited any of the 10 war relocation
center camps ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I never have.
; Mr. Stripling. Are you familiar with the activities of any par-
ticular camp ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIE'S 9471
iSlr. Kanazawa. No; none.
Mr. Stoipling. Have you received reports from internees concern-
in«i: conditions there ^
Mr. Kanazawa. Some, yes; some reports, some letters, and so^
forth.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know a Mr. Carl Kondo?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes ; I know him very well.
Mr. Stripling. What is your opinion of Carl Kondo?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, in what way do you mean ?
Mr. Stripling. Do you think he is a reliable person?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe he is.
. Mr. Stripling. I show you a letter dated January 7. 1943, whicli
is addressed to Dear Emilie and Tooru, signed Carl.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. The address is 33-11 Block 3, Manzanar, Calif.
Do you recall receiving that letter?
]\Ir. Kanazawa. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read this letter inta
the record.
Mr. CosTELLo. It may be read.
Mr. Stripling. It is dated January 7, 1943. [Reading :]
It was a surprise and a pleasure to receive that Christmas card from you.
I'd beeu wondering how you were and where you were.
Of course. I gather you must be fairly busy in keeping yourselves together.
I hope that you are both in good health.
Her*' in Manzanai'. we are undergoing a severe test of democracy. And
1lio.se of u>< who are pro- American and still hold true to a faith in this
country and in the tenets of democracy, must walk a tight, circumspect path
here in INIanzanar. We've a history of bungling in the administrative heads
and a crucifying torment of spirit in the breasts of us who can see a little
more clearly than the majority of the people here. Generally felt is ah at-
titude of bitterness by the Nisei who can't adjust themselves to the changing-
world and the fact that we're in an all-out war against fascism — and in
such a war the sacrifice of a hundred thousand Japanese, citizens and non-
citizens, is justified if such evacuation is the means of forestalling a racial
animosity and cankerous suspicion in the west coast population of many
million.
The Issei here on the whole are a bigotted, jealous, petty lot who attack
Nisei and loyal Issei with pro-Japanisms. The Kibei side with this agitator
class of ignorant Issei, and among them are some terroist blackguards who
intimidate the peaceable and loyal Issei, Nisei, and Kibei, and even threaten
women.
Ti'dtn, I'm getting a first-hand impression of the whole movement and the
thing is interesting and fraught with danger. I was in on this before evacua-
tion when the F. B. I. was sweeping the coast of Issei and lugging them into
detention camps for a delayed hearing. I saw the power of the Japanese
broken in the agricultural, commercial field. I saw a clique of rapacious
Nisei riding down their parents and under the J. A. C. L. banner sabotage
their own people and even their fellow Nisei. Tooru, the outbreak in this
camp was largely due to an accunuilation of feeling against the.se men who
spoke not for themselves as they had every right to do, but for the whole
group without that group's authorization. This was the type of man wha
ripped his fellow Japanese up the back with one hand and waved the flag,
with the other.
');■ (•our.><e. the niob went out of control mid iiuii were kil'od V)y niachiue-guii'
fire. It was a wonder that women weren't killed, since many of them were v\
the mob in front of the police station. After the excitment, the decent people-
wei-e ashamed of what bad taken place and eyed the tronble-making Kibei terror-
ists (who ,'r<' boing pif'ked up by tlie military and local police) askance. Tofl-iy
ordy sporadic expressions of anIi-Caucasionism is in evedince such as attempting:
to ijrive out the white teachers by harassing them.
9472 UN-AAIERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIEiS
Toorn, this camp has been typified as the most Japanese Japan-like by a woman
who visited many of the camps. I think the Issei (and by Issei 1 mean that
certain dtmniatic, ignorant, jivo-Japan type of person, not the loyal, Americanized
lirst-genei-arion who as a rule is an educated person), and Kibei outnumber the
Nisei here two to one.
Well, this i.s known as getting it off the chest, Toorn. I'm going to try to go
to another camp or seek iiermauent relocati(»n iis a newspaper worker or type-
writer rojiairman. I'm .supervisor of typewriter maintenance here with a profes-
.sional I'aliui;- of .$11) a month.
Good luck to you both.
Carl.
Do you think tliat Carl Kondo was actually stating the situation at
Manzanar Campi'
Mr. Kanazaava, In the main part I think it is so. Of course, 1 ain
not familiar with the conditions, but 1 believe what he would write
for the men.
Mr. CosTELLo. How did you come into possession of this letter?
Mr. K.xNAz.vwA. It Avas written to me.
Mr. Stripling. It was M'ritten to him, jNIr. Chairman, and obtained
Avhen the files of the Japanese American Citizens Lea<zue were sub-
penaed by the committee.
The reference here in which Mr. Kondo says, "1 saw- the power of
the Japanese broken in the agricultural, commercial fields. I saw a
clique of rapacious Xisei riding down their parents and under the
J. A. C. L. banner sabotage their own people and even their fellow
Nisei."
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. What did you understand Mr. Kondo to mean by
that reference to J. A. C. L. f
Mr. Kan.vzawa. Well, like any other organization, the J. A. C. L.
has had leaders who Avere not above doing such things, and we have
always been free to admit that.
Mr. Stritling. What do you think he specifically has reference to
there as to the conduct of the J. A. C. L. leaders?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, he may be referring to some of the things
that took place right after Pearl Harbor or during the evacuation
crises.
jNlr. Stkiplin(!. As eastern representative of J. A. C. L. you are
familiar with the organization and with its membershiix Hoav many
members does the Japanese American Citizens League actually have
in tlie United States; dues-paying members?
Mr. Kanazaava. Mike Masaoka has told me that they have 20,UOO
on the rolls.
Ml'. Stripling. Do you knoAv of your OAvn knoAvledge that they have
'20.(>00. oi- are you going by Avhat Mr. Masaoka says ?
JVIr. Kan.vz.wva. I am jifst going by what he lias told me. I haA^e
no figures to that effect myself.
Mr. Mattiieavs. You stated that the Japanese American Citizens
League has had leaders Avho fit that description. Who are or Avere
^;()me of those leaders?
Mr. K.\nazaava. Well, I can't make any charge because I can't prove
it.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have specific names in j'our own mind?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I have one.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9473
Mr. Matihkws. Is he still in the Japanese Anieiiean Citizens
Lea<iiie ?
]NIr. Kanazawa. I believe he is.
Mr. Mai THEWS. And still an official of the Japanese American
Citizens Leaaue (
Mr. Kanazawa. I couldn't say to that.
^Ir. Matthews. According to your hitest information about him
was he still an official?
Mr. Kanazawa. He is not active, but I don't know just whether his
connections have been severed or not.
Mr. Matthews. Was h,e ever formally charged with misconduct by
the organization?
Mr. Kanazawa. Xo, he was not.
]Mr. ^Ia'ithkws. Do other leaders of the organization than yourself
know tibout his gross misconduct?
Mr. ^Ianazawa. I believe they do.
^Ir. ^Iatthews. It is a matter of general knowledge of the organ-
ization, is it not, among the top leaders?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes. I think it could be said. yes. However, I
would not like to say anything, because this is all hearsay that I have
heard, and I have no fact or e^'idence to substantiate this.
Mr. CosTELLo. This particular paragra])h that Mr. Stripling read
you from the letter regarding the J. A. C. L., just exactly what did
ihat have reference to?
Mr. MiNDT. While the chairman is looking for the passage he
wants to (puite, Mr. Kanazawa, may I inquire whether you are in con-
tact with your parents through correspondence?
Mr. Kanazawa. I am ; yes, sir.
^Ir. MuNDT. In their letters to you. have they at any time indicated
about the same general conditions existed at Postern as described in
this letter from Manzanar?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I am in constant communication with my
mother and two married sisters in Poston, and I have been surprised
because they liave not put in iiiuch news about the political or eco-
nomic or other conditions at Poston. They would write more about
the temperature or the food or things like that, and very little about
the political friction or other things.
Mr. ]\[uNDT. Did they write anything at all about the riot which
look ])lace at Poston?
Mr. Kanazawa. Xo. sii-. They just mentioned it, but they didn't go
into any details.
Mr. MuNDT. They did not give any indication as to what might have
caused that riot?
Mr. Kanazawa. Xo. they did not.
iSIr. Costello. Did they express anything to you regarding the
conditions, at Poston center?
]\Ir. Kanazawa. Well, their main complaint is about the heat and
the sand and the wind, and also about the living conditions. They
have tried to do the best with what they haA^e. but they are rather
crowded there.
Mr. Costello. All living conditions are overcrowded.
]\Ir. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLc*. The i)articular sentence I have reference to in the
letter is that portion which reads "riding down their parents.*'
'9474 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kanazawa. I am not sure just what he would have reference
to there. There may have been certain incidents that happened dur-
ing; the evacuation that he had in mind, but I don't laiow about that.
Mr. CosTELLO. Or whether he merely means taking advantage of
them, or something to that effect.
Mr. Ka?s^azawa. Yes ; something like that.
Mr. CosTELLO. And you do not know what he means by the ex-
pression "under the J. A. C. L, banner sabotage their own people"?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I could not say what he meant there.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would that have reference to the activities prior
to the evacuation, or subsequently?
Mr. Kaxazawa. I have the idea that it would be about the time
of the evacuation.
Mr. CosTELLo. Possibly some of the Nisei at the time of the evacu-
ation were taking advantage of their own people by trying "to buy
their property, or things of that character.
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I couldn't say. I would not know about that.
Mr. CosTELLO. You do not know whether it refers directly to that
■or not.
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I don't know Avliat he had in mind here.
Mr. Matthews. Have you heard that some of the Nisei leaders of
the Japanese American Citizens League sold official passes to Japan-
ese prior to evacuation; passes which they were able to obtain from
the California authorities?
Mr. Kanazawa. I do not know about that.
Mr. Matthews. Have you heaixl that ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I have not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Tokie Slocum, Mr. Kanazawa?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Stripling. How well do you know Mr. Slocum ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I have met liim in Seattle in about — well,
the latter part of tiie twenties or early thirties; I don't recall the
exact date.
Mr. Stripling. Do you consider him to be a person of Japanese
extraction who is working for the general welfare and betterment of
the Japanese as a whole ?
Mr. Kanazawa. In general, I believe so.
Mr. Stripling. As eastern representative of the J. A. C. L., I be-
lieve you told the connnittee when Mike Masaoka was out of Wash-
ington, that you would replace him as the so-called head officer here.
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I just filled in for him. I maintained the
usual contacts.
Mr. Stripling. I have here a report which was obtained by the
committee on the letterhead of the Japanese American Citizens
League, dated January 14, 1943, entitled "Subject: Instructions and
Miscellaneous. From Mike Masaoka to Washington office, attention
Joe Kanazawa."
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
]\Tr. Stripling. Do you recognize this as the letterhead and report
of Mike Masaoka ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read one portion of
this report which was made by Mr. Masaoka.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9475
Mr. CosTELLO. You may proceed.
Mr. Striplikg. 1 quote :
Tokutaio Slocuia is now in Washington, D. C, and I suggest that you keep a
close tab on him as he may cause us some embarrassment and difficulty. Slocum,
as you probably know, is one of the outstanding Japanese heroes of the First
World War. He is a marvelous patriotic orator, and was largely responsible
for tlie passage of the special legislation which permitted Japanese veterans of
the First World War to become American citizens. I believe he has some valuable
contacts in Washington. Slocum is dangei'ous becau.se he is fanatical about
Americanism. He holds to the theory that all Issei and most of the Nisei are dis-
loyal. We ai'e afraid ihat because of his service record, he will be able to ap-
proach certain of the Congressmen wlio are antagonistic to us and there present
his story in such a manner tliat the W. II. A. resettlement program, as well as
their budget for the next year may be jeopardized. With his estimates and half-
guesses, I am afraid that he will cause congressional investigations of an un-
necessary nature and which may result in further mass segregation and intern-
ment. We consider Slocum one of the most dangerous men to the general pro-
gram of resettlement, because he thinks only of himself and not of the general
welfare. He has a persecution complex in that he feels that every person of
Japanese ancestry is out to get him. I suggest that you check his activities as
much as possible and to keep us fully informed as to his doings. Because of the
potential danger of his presence in Washington and because George Inakagi may
know how to handle him because of his associations with him in southern Cali-
fornia. I am asking that he report to you in Washington as soon as possible after
his Chicago conferences and that both of you work together to see that he does
not jeopardize the future of the Japanese in this country by his sincere and
misguided efforts.
What action did you take upon those instructions?
Mr, Kanazawa. I didn't do very much, sir.
Mr. Stripling. What do you think that Mr. Masaoka had in mind
"when he said "Slocum is dangerous because he is fanatical about
Americanism"?
Mr. Kanazawa. I think, at best, that I refer you to Mike Masaoka
on that.
. Mr. Stripling. You would not care to comment on that ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. No. •
IVIr. Stripling. You did not take any action ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No, sir.
Mr. S'lTJPLiNG. And you did not get in touch with Mr. Slocum?
Mr. Kanazawa. No; I had met him here, of course, but I didn't
do anything special.
Mr. Stripling. Well, you did not keep tab on him, so to speak, as
they asked you to do ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Matthews. Did you reply to that letter ?
Mr. Kan.vzawa. Well, we made reports every so often but I don't
think I brought tliis up.
^Ir. Eberharter. You never made any answer to that suggestion?
Mr. Kanazawa. No, sir; as far as I remember, I don't remember
whether I did.
Mr. Matthews. Do vou sliare Masaoka's viewpoint as expressed in
that letter ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Not entirely, sir.
Mr. Matthews. To what extent do you share it?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I know from what Slocum has testified since
in the Senate investigating committee and here, that he does not re-
gard most of the Japanese disloyal, as the letter states.
9476 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stripling. He stated yesterday he thought the majority were
loyaL
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. As eastern representatives of the J. A. C. L., was it
your duty to contact various government officials from time to time?
Mr, Kanazawa. It was ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will you state which Government officials you had
most frequent contact with?
Mr. Kanazawa. In the main they were W. R. A. officials.
Mr. Stripling. Who, in the W. R. A., did you contact ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, Mr. Myer.
Mr. Stripling. Mr, Dillon Myer?
Mr. Kanazawa. Mr, Dillon Myer ; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Director of the War Relocation Authority ?
Mr, Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Stiupling. Who else?
Mr. Ivanazawa, John Baker, puhlic relations, and Tom Holland
and Bob Frase, his assistants.
Mr. Stripling. Did you contact the officials of any other agency of
the Government ?
Mr, Kanazawa. I did have contact with the War Department offi-
cials. Let me see, I had occasion to see Mr. Ennis about two or three
times, I believe,
Mr, Stripling, Mr. Kanazawa, I show you a letter dated May 1,
1943, signed "Joe." Will you tell me whether or not that letter is
from you?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; it is from me.
Mr, Stripling, Mr, Chairman, this letter is dated May 1, 1943,
addressed to "Dear Mike," who, I assume, is Mike Masaoka.
Mr. Kanazawa, It is,
Mr. Stripling. It is signed "Joe," I would like to read this into the
record.
Mr, Costello, Very well.
Mr. Stripling. The letter reads :
Just as a point of information, Mr. Myer aslced me about something lie had
been told: That over a year ago Leehner worked for as or had offered to work
for us, but inasmuch as the league could not pay him what he wanted he went
to work for the "opposition." Myer seems to think that Leehner is one of those
who will work for the highest bidder.
Re the brief it occurred to me that the loilowing is a vital point : De Witt
declared the evacuation a "military necessity." Yet he thinks of us as "Japs
is Japs." Could it be that he was prejudiced? If you get what I mean. How-
ever, keep in mind actual transcription.
Had a good talk with Myer, Holland, Baker, and they would all like to see
you. They were sorry to have missed you last week. V^Hien do you think you
will be back?
Regards to Et.su and Suzuki's, et al.
Sincerely,
Job.
Now, Mr. Kanazawa, what did you mean when you said:
De Witt declared the evacuation a military necessity. Yet he thinks of us as
"Japs is Japs." Could it be that he was prejudiced?
Could you elaborate on that? First, that has reference to General
De Witt/cloesit?
Mr. Kanazawa, Yes; I know it has. Well, he was quoted in the
coast papers as saying "Japs is Japs" and that he was opposed! to
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9477
their return to tlie coast, and I felt that he was prejudiced in making
the statement; that it did show tliat lie was prejudiced when he or-
dered the evacuation.
Mr, CosTELLO. You think he ordered the evacuation purely as a
matter of })rejudice and not as a military necessity?
Mr. Kanazawa. Oh, I do believe it was a military necessity, but
I do believe he was influenced to some extent.
Mr. CosTELixD. In what nranner? By outside pressure groups, or
something ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; I think there may have been some pressure
groups.
IMr. CoSTELLO. Like business concerns, or something of that kind
in California and the west coast?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe so. But I have orders not to talk about
military matters from the War Department, sir.
Mr. CosTEixo. And that is a matter which you should not properly
comment on?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes. sir.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean it would be kind of tough for a private to
talk about a general.
Mr. Kanazawa. I cannot talk about the policies of the General
Staff.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kanazawa, are you a follower of the Buddhist
religion ?
]\Ir. Kanazawa. I am not.
^Ir. Stripling. Have you ever been?
Mr. Kanazawa. No.
iNIr. ISIuNDT. In regard to that letter, what did you have reference to,
^Ir. Kanazawa, when you used the word "opposition"?
Mr. Kanazawa. Opposition?
Mr. MuNDT. As I understand Mr. Stri]:)ling. he referred to some-
body M'ho was supposed to be for the J. A. C. L.
]\Ir. Kanazawa. ( )h. I know what you mean there. I had reference
to some of the anti-Japanese groups on the west coast .
IMr. MuNDT. Do you know who he went to work for, specifically?
INIr. Kanazawa. Xo. I do not. Mike was going into the matter,
but I think he left on one of his trips, and I never did get to know just
exactly what he found out.
Mr. MuNDT. j\Ir. Kanazawa. your wife stated that one thing that
disturbed her a bit was the fact that many of the confidential papers
from the W. R. A. had been given to the Japanese American Citizens'
League. She thought that was rather disturbing and an unusual Gov-
ernment procedure.
Do you share in her skepticism in such a policy?
Mr. Kanazawa. "Well, I think I will have to correct her. I will
say some confidential information; not papers, as the representative
here also turned in information and facts, news for the Pacific Citizen,
and sometimes I was able to get leads to stories that were breaking
in the future, but I passed them on and marked them "Confidential,"
that they were not to be released before the date of the general press
release.
^fr. MuNDT. I want you to think pretty hard before you ansvrer this
question.
Mr. Kanazaw^a. Yes, sir.
9478 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Are you positive that there were no confidential papers
and reports from the War Relocation Authority turned over to the
Japanese American Citizens League?
Mr. Kanazawa. We were getting the directives from the W. E.. A.
that they were issuing.
Mr. jSiuNDT. You were getting official records?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir ; we were getting those.
Mr. CosTEixo. In advance of the release of those directives?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; the directives came in, usually, whenever thej
were sent out to the projects.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever get a directive, or directivee, which were
stamped or marked "Confidential"?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe we have; yes.
Mr, MuNDT. Those would be considered, then, would they not, as
confidential papers?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir ; they would be.
Mr. MuNDT. So you did get confidential papers?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, some,
Mr, MuNDT. Now, to go back to my original question, do you share
in your wife's skepticism about the wisdom of such a policy ?
Your wife said she thought that was rather unusual Government
procedure. To me it is an amazing Government procedure; in fact,
1 consider that the most amazing single piece of testimony yet to
come before our committee, that the War Relocation Authority should
stamp papers "Confidential," "Not for public release," and then hand
them out to other organizations than their own staff assignment.
I wonder if you share that opinion of your wife's?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, yes ; I guess I do.
Mr. MuNDT. You do? That makes three of us because I certainly
do, too.
Mr. Stripling. On that point, Mr. Chairman, among the records
which were subpenaed is a report dated September 19, 1942, to the
national headquarters staff of the Japanese American Citizens League,
which is signed "Dog-tireclly, Mike." That is Masaoka?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Are you familiar with this report? You were
with the J. A. C. L. on September 19 ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir; and I did some typing for Mike some-
times.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, this report on the first page states :
Just now he's —
referring to Mr. Kanazawa —
typing out copies of the directives from the War Relocation Authority which
affect the evacuees (he claims that he can't finish copying them for a couple
of days, after vphich we'll send them back on to you all) and so it means that
I'm back at the old job of banging out my own news letters ; so please excuse
the more than usual mistakes. A word about the directives — we've got a lot
more but they have to deal with the administration itself and so we are not
enclosing copies of them. All are most confidential and we were lucky to get
them ourselves, so please be careful of their use.
In the same report, on page 8, under the bold-type heading, under-
scored "Strictly confidential," the report states :
Myer put this up to me directly and pointedly. He said that he and his
staff deals with me ou the same basis of confidence and mutual trust as they do
among themselves.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9479
Up to lunv I have been permitted to sit down and dipcussj every major iiolicy
before ir was Mnally passed on. Up to now no confidence has been betrayed.
The War Relocation Anthority desires to continue that fine rehiti<m.sliip and
will continue to do so as long as confidential matters are kept in confidence
and as loni; as we sincerely try to cooperate with them on the improvement ot
conditions.
He is afraid that certain unys in ("oniiross would .iuiii|i down their collective
ihroat.s if they could only imagine a part of the part which we play in forming
W. R. A. policy. Too, he desires that nothing is made pviblic except through his
office and at the proper time. He is a great believer in "proper timing" as the
keystone to successful announcements and their general acceptance.
He has given us tlie directives and instructions of his deiiartment. They are
io be held in tlie strictest confidence and are not to be announced to anyone.
They are merely to serve as a hint to us of their policy ; nothing more. If, in
order to answer a letter, it is necessary to quote all or part of an administrative
instruction, please contact me befi^re so doing. In specific cases, I have been
given rhe ]irivilege of quoting them in full.
Oin- working relationships with Myer are now on a better plane than with
Eisenhower. We've got to keep them that way. Be careful, and that refers
esiiecially to Kido in Poston — for if Wade 'decided to get sore if he discovered that
you had copies. God Bless America ! As a member of the legal staff, I suppose
you see all of them, though, don't you, Sab?
Yon think ]\Ir. Masn oka's repoft to the national lieadqnarters is sub-
stantially true as to that ?
Mr. Kanazaava. "Well, I just typed this and I would like to refer }ou
to ]\rike as to Mr. Myer.
Mr. CosTKLLO. You would not rare to comment on that ?
Mr. K \NAZAWA. I would not like to comment on that.
IMr. Co.sTELLo. Did he dictate this to you ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. CosTKLLo. And you typed it up ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. Yes ; that is what I did.
Mr. Stripling. Noav, the report refers to this : "For if Wade decided
to ffct sore if he discovered that you had copies, God Bless America."
The "Wade" referred to there is the camp director at Poston ?
jNIr. K vxazaava. I believe so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Strti'lixg. But you do not care to comment on this?
Mr. Kaxazaava. No.
Mr. Striplixo. But yoii do knoAv that you had copies of confidential
directives ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. We have directives, yes ; that were giA^en to us.
Mr. Striplixg. And instructions from the War Eelocation Author-
ity at the headquarters of the Japanese American Citizens League here
in Wasliington?
Mr. Kaxazaava.. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTET.Lo. Did you ever attend any of these meetings Avith Mr.
Myer or INIr. Holland, or any others connected Avith the W. R. A. ?
Mr. K.vxAZAAVA. No : 1 did not. Mike did.
]Mr. Costello. And you did talk Avith them ?
Mr. Kaxazaava. Yes; I did talk with them. I had personal con-
tact with them.
Mr. CosiTcuvO. When he was out of toAvn ?
Mr. Kaxazaava. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costeixo. But you did not attend any of the other conferences?
Mike usually attended those?
]Mr. Kax AZAAA-A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costello. He handled the communications back and forth
directly with W.R. A.?
9480 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES ■
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
]\lr. Stripling. Mr. Kanazawa, were you successful in getting Mr.
Willkie to file a brief on behalf of the case before the Supreme Court?
Mr. Kanazawa. No.
Mr. Stripling. On April 12, 1913, there is a letter signed "Joe" to
"Dear Mike" on the letterhead of the Japanese American Citizens
League; Washington Office [reading]:
Dkar ]Mike: Although I iinderstaiul that the AcUi will present a brief, I wonder
it Willkie would take the chance of appearing as appellant before the United
States .Supreme Court. Think there'd be any harm in approaching him while you
are up tliere?
You do not know whether Mr. Masaoka contacted Mr. Willkie?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe he tried indirectly, but was unsuccessful.
Mr, Stripling. Unsuccessful?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. I would like, Mr. Chairman, to read the remainder
of this letter.
Mr. Costello. Proceed.
Mr. Stripling [reading] :
A Nisei was shot and killed at Topaz by a military police. The story at War
Relocation Authority is that he was challenged several times but didn't answer
as he was going over the barbed wire' fence. Hence the shooting. This is the
first version, so far, of the affair. His name is not known and they are hushing
it up here and back there. So far it has not made the papers unless it breaks
toifiorrow.
This leaves a had t;iste in my nK»uth. Some rationalization was possible of the
Manzanar shooting, but this one smacks too much of "concentration camp" stuff
and not of a "refuge," if you get what I mean. Guard towers, barbed wire fences,
and such shootings cast a shadow over the sincerity of the Government's resettle-
ment program.
Am prejtaring a report tomorrow if I can get it out on the lastest developments.
Things are moving fast now and we must make preparations to be ready for
them in.the coming months.
Didn't get to write to Herbert Agar, so hope you can contact him. Am forward-
ing Father Tibers;iT's letter of introduction as I don't know to whom to write
at Jlaryknoll. I'erhaps vou can find out from Catliolic soui'ces there in New
Yoi-k ( ify.
Everything else will be ready for you down hei'e so let me know when you
are coming down.
Give my regards to Etsu, the Suzuki's, and the others.
Sincerely,
Joe.
Mr. Costello. Wh-o signed that letter?
Mr. Stripling. It is signed "Joe."
Mr. Kanazawa. I Avrote that letter.
Mr. Mundt. What did you have in mind about Herbert Agar?
What did you have in mind about him?
JNIr. Kanazaw^\. Well, we made all the contacts we can among vari-
ous organizations to help in our work in resettling and Americaniza-
tion and we made ccmtact with all the liberal groups possible that we
<?an to help in that work.
Mr. Mundt. What liberal group is Mr. Herbert Agar with?
Mr. Stpjpijng. Freedom House.
Mr. Kanazawa. Freedom House. I think he is chairman of Free-
dom House in New York City,
Mr. Mundt, You mentioned also Mr. Willkie. He is with the same
group, is he?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9481
Mr. Kaxazawa. No; it was not in connection with that at all.
Mr. IMuNDT. Did you ever come across tiie name of I)i'. Ka<iawa;
the Reverend Kaaawa? He was a Japanese lecturer wlio toured this
country for many years,
Mr. Kaxazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. Could you tell the committee anythin«; about him?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe he is considered one of tJie greatest Chi-is-
tian leaders in tlie world. He is in Japan now, I believe.
Mi-. Ml Nixr. Is he in Japan now ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr, ]\IuNDT. Was he repatriated to Japan ?
Mr, Kanazawa, No ; he is a Japanese subject, and I believe he was
in Japan at the time the Avar broke out. ^^
Mr. MiNDT. Would he be considered a propagandist for Imperial
Japan, do you know ? *
Mr. Kanazaava, Well, I Avent to one speech he made in NeAV York
City in back — I don't recall exactly the time; I believe it was before
the\var — in Avhicli he spoke at tiiat time, his speech Avas along — I mean
the ty]:)e that a Christian minister might make of making better citi-
zens of ourselves in this country; of that nature,
Mr. S'lKiPLiNG. ]VIr. KanazaAva, there is reference here to the Nisei
who AA-as.shot at Topaz. Did you follow that up? Could you en-
lighten the committee as to Avhat took place ? •.
Mr. Kanazaava. I <l()n"t remember the name or anything, but I do
believe the story did break a little later. I can't recall right noAV. I
would like to refer that to the W. R. A.
Mr. CosiELLO. You think the W. R. A. Avould haA'e all the facts and
details regarding the incident?
Mr. Kanazaava. Yes; I think that they Avould.
Mr. CosTELLo. There Avere no news releases regarding the matter
at the time?
Mr, Kanazaaa'A. Not that particular day,
Mr, CosTELLO. So far as you knoAv. then, any incident of that na-
ture occurring in the relocation center Avould be Avithheld from the
press or from the public at large ?
Mr. Kanazaava. AVell. I don't belieA'e it would be withheld; it is
bound to come out.
Mr. CosTELLo. But in this particular instance it did no't come out?
Mr. Kanazaava, I looked in all the Washington papers that day and
I saAv notliing about it.
Mr. CosTKELo. Do you knoAV of any other instance of this kind that
took place at any of the centers that may or may not have been released
through the press?
Mr. Kanazaava. T don't knoAv.
Mr, 2kliNDT, Did you look in the Washington i)a|)ers tlie next day for
the story?
Mr, Kanazawa. Yes; I looked the next day and I didn't see anything;
then, either.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you look the third day?
Mr. Kanazaava, I don't belieA'e that I ever read auA'thing about this
incident.
Mr. Mundt. I mean, you Avere interested in it, and if there had been
a story
9482 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kanazawa. If there had been, I would have noticed it; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. And you never did notice it?
^Ir. Kanazawa, No ; I never did.
Mr. MuNDT. And the Washington papers take all the leading wire
services of the country ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. So that if it were released, they would carry it?
Mr. Kanazaw^a. I believe they would, yes; if it was important
enough.
]Mr. MuNDT. And since they did not carry it, the news must liave been
withheld by somebody '(
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I think news has value according to the dis-
tance, and it might not have been considered important enough to print
here. It may have been printed in the papers around the area.
Mr. MuNDT.'Did you ever see a news})aper clipping of it anywliere?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I didn't.
Mr, CosTELLO. Do you not think that the shooting of one of the Jap-
anese evacuees at a center would make news, especially if it was done by
the military force there?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe so.
Mr. CosTELLO. Just a killing within the center itself, a murder taking
place — that would be an incident that might occur any place in the
country.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. But where there apparently is a Japanese claim that
an evacuee was shot by the military guard, it seems to me that is an
unusual incident and would be news, even in Washington, with all the
news created locally.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chairman, in regard to this story, it is possible I may have gotten
this Nisei part wrong and it was an old man of about 60 years old who
was shot and killed and that story did break. I may have got the facts
' wrong on this. I would like to have you check on this.
Mr. CosTELLO. You mean there were two people shot down there?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; just one.
Mr. CosTELLO. One Nisei and the other was an older man?
Mr. Kanazawa. No; just an old man. I know an old man was shot
by the M. P.'s and that story was in the press.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know anything further about it as to the rea-
so]i he might have been climbing over the fence ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I don't know anything about that.
Mr. CosTELLO. You have none of the details on that ?
y'v. Kanazawa. No.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Mundt asked you a question about this Dr.
Kaga\A a who was lecturing here.
You say you attended one of his lectures in New York?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
]VIr. CosTELLO. Do you know what the nature of the subject was, or
do y(.u recall anything about the lecture?
Mr. Kanazawa. It was along the spiritual line. I would not classify
it as propaganda.
]Mr. CoSTELLO. The lecture which you attended was purely along
religious lines?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir ; strictly so.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9483
Mr. CosTELLO. But all of his lectures were not of that character, or
would you know about that?
^Ir. Kaxazaava. I would not know about that.
Mr. CosTKLLO. Is it not a fact that he did a great deal of lecturing
and propagandizing on behalf of consumer cooperatives while he was
here in this country ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. Well. I am not so familiar with that. It was sheer
chance I went to hear him ; I wanted to see what Dr. Kagawa looked
like and I was more interested in his personality than anything else.
]\Ir. CosTELLO. Making a personal study rather than the matters
with which he was concerned ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. You do not know whether that is a fact, however,
whether he was propagandizing on behalf of consumer cooperatives
as opposed to the existing capitalistic system in this country?
Mr. Kaxazawa. No; I don't know about that.
Mr. CosTELLo. But you clo know that the W. K.. A. has started a pro-
gram of inaugurating the cooperatives in some of the relocation cen-
ters, do you not ?
INIr. Kanazawa. Yes; they have.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you consulted with jNIr. Myer regarding those
coo])eratives ^
Mr. Kaxazawa. No ; I have not.
Mr. CosTEixo. Do you have any direct information as to how
many centers have cooperatives established in them at the present
time?
Mr. Kaxazawa. No; I don't.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether the starting of those coopera-
tives was af the insistence of the Japanese American Citizens League?
Mr. Kaxazaava. No: I don't believe it was. It was not a J. A.
C. L. suggestion or anything like that.
Mr. CosTELLO. You never discussed that with Mike Masaoka ?
I\Ir. Kanazawa. No ; I did not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did vou ever hear him discuss it, after having
talked with Mr. Myer? ■
]\Ir. Kaxazawa. No. I didn't.
Mr. CosTELLo. But so far as you know, then, the establishment of
cooperatives in these relocation centers was a program that was in-
augurated by ^y. R. A. and not by the J. A. C. L. ? .
' Mr. Kaxazawa. No ; it was not — Yes; I think that is so.
Mr. CosTELixx That is all.
Mr. Ererhakter. Was it the intention of the J. A. C. L. to keep the
news of this killing of this Japanese by the military police from the
Japanese people; to withhokl that kjiowledge from the Japanese
peo])le generally?
Mr. Kanazaava. I didn't get that, sir.
Mr. Eberiiarter. This Japanese who was killed by the military
police; Avas it the intention of the J. A. C. L. to keep that matter
secret ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. No. sir; it was not.
Mr. EBf:RHARTER. Well, did the J. A. C. L. send out any communi-
cation whatsoever to any of its correspondents regarding this killing?
Mr. Kanazawa. I don't believe so.
9484 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Congressman, I ask you to check this story because I believe
I may have been misinformed on that particular date and that it
really was an Issei who was killed. I do recall that an Issei was
killed, but I don't recall just what date it was; whether it checks
with the date of this, I don't remember.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you think it would have been a good idea
for the J. A. C. L. to notify its corres]jondents or people that they
came in contact with, of this fact, that this Japanese was killed?
Mr. Kanazawa. For what purpose, sir?
Mr. Eberharter. Well, I will let yon answer that.
Would it have served any purpose whatsoever?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, it would have called the attention of vari-
ous organizations and groups to what had taken place, and might
move them to some sort of action.
Mr. Eberharter. That is the very reason I asked you the question,
whether or not the J. A. C L. took any action whatsoever in respect
to this incident.
Mr. Kanazawa. They might have, at the national headquarters.
We did not take any action here in Washington, unless Mike did it
himself.
Pardon me, but Mike Masaoka did quite a bit of traveling all over
the covintry, so that I was not in close contact with him at all times.
Mr. Ei^ERHARTER. Well, the reason you would notify Mike about this
incident was so tliat he could take any action he felt that was neces-
sary?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. To either correct the situation or for some other
purpose ; is that correct?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. So that the J. A. C. L. might have notified all of
its corres{)ondents of this incident?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. E erharter. So far as you know ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Eberharter. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. You said in this letter that you wrote that a Niesi
was shot and killed.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELix), And now j^ou say you think it was an old man.
Mr, Kanazawa. I believe I did know this, that there was an old
man shot and killed. Whether it was with reference to the same case
or not, I can't say, but I think that can be substantiated if you would
compare the stories; I mean, the news clippings, with this particu-
lar one.
I think Mr. Myer Avould be able to verify it.
Mr. CosTELLo. Of course, if it was suppi-essed here in Washington
and out there, I guess there would be no newspaper clippings with
which to compare it.
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I got the impression that it was being sup-
pressed because I didn't see it in any of the Washington papers, but
I did hear that there had been a killing.
Mr. MuNDT. Where did vou get vour information about the killing?
Mr. Kanazawa. At the W. R. A.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9485
Mr. MuNDT. At the W. R. A. ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. You had some inforination first, did you nbt, about
tlie killiii<r before you went over to confer with W. K. A. regarding
the matter i
Mr. Kanazawa. Xo; I just picked it up that morning there.
' Mr, CosTEixo. While over there ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes. sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. Judging from the letter, tlie story of W. R. A. is
that he was challenged several times but did not answer^
Mr. Kanazaw'a. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. At the time you got your information from W. R. A.,
I presume that you also fathered your impiession from the same place
that the story was not being released by the papers?
Mr. Kanazaw^\. Yes, sir; the W. R. A. was rather surprised, too,
that they didn't see anything about it — I mean in the papers here.
Mr. CoSTELLO. You make tlie statement here in the letter, "His name-
is not known and they" — apparently referring to W. R. A. — "are
hushing it up here and back there.".
Xow. you must have obtained that information by conferring with
somebody down at W. R. A. regarding the matter.
]Mr. Kanazaw' A. I had talked with someone ; that is where I got my
information,
Mr. C0STEL1.0. With whom did you talk down thei-e?
Mrs. Kanazaava. I think it was Mr. Myer. but I am not positive.
Mr. CosTELLO. Y^ou believe you talked directly with Dillon Myer
himself regarding this incident?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELix>. And that he is the one that told 3-011 about it?
Mr, Kanazaw^a. Yes, sir.
Mr, CosTELLO. And it was from him, then, that you got the informa-
tion that W. R. A. was hushing up the news story, both here in Wash-
ington and out there at Topaz?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I think it would be best if you ask him about
this.
Mr. CosTELLO. A^'ell, we intend to ask him, but I want to get the in-
formation from you.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
^Ir. CosTEixo. In other words, if you conferi-ed with him. I would
like to have your version of the story so that when he does come here
Ave would be able to inquire of him regarding the incident.
Mr. Kanazaw^4. Mr. Costello, this is the way it goes : As a news-
paperman I go to various people and get leads from this person and
that person and put them together sometimes.
This particular thing — I think I did talk to ]Mr. Myer about this.
Mr. Costello. On April 12, 1943, was the date on which this letter
was written: were you engaged in newspaper work at that time?
Mr. Kanazawa. Xo; I was not.
Mr. Costello. Your occupation at that time was that 3'ou were em-
ployed by the Japanese American Citizens League?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Cosielt,o. And your purpose in going to W. R. A. at that time
was in connection with the activities of the Japanese American Citizens
League?
62626 — 43— vol. 15 42
9486 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir; that is true.
Mr. CosTELLO. So that you were not looking for a news story or leads,
but 3"ou were definitely conferring on the problem of the relocation
centers and the matters of the Japanese American Citizens League?
Mr. Kanazawa. I was referring to my training as a newspaperman;
that was my technique. ^
Mr. CosTELLO. All the more reason you ought to remember the
person with whom you talked and the person from whom you obtained
the information.
Mr. Kanazawa. That is true, sir, but I am really a little hazy about
that. I think I talked with Mr. Mver after I got the information
from somebody else. That is tlie impression that I have light now.
Mr. CoSTELLo. This particular letter was written less than 3 months
ago, and apparently the incident occurred a short time ago, and it
seems to me you ought to remember who you talked with down there
and pretty well remember the conversation' down there itself, par-
ticularly a matter of this importance, in which you were suggesting
that someone of the prominence of Mr. Willkie should be engaged to
write a brief as appellant for the United States Supreme Court. I
presume that was referring to matters of tliis kind.
Mr. Kanazawa, It was in reference to the Hirabayashi and the
Yasui cases.
Mr. CosTELLO. Those are cases recently decided bv the Supreme
Court?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Those are the cases in which the Supreme Court held
the right of General De Wilt ; the right to evacuate people of Japa-
nese ancestry from the Pacific coast?
]\Ir. K.LNAZAWA. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. The purpose of engaging Mr. Willkie would have
been to act as appellant on behalf of the Japanese people.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. And had no connection with the second paragraph
regarding the shooting at Topaz?
iVIr. Kanazawa. No ; it had no reference to that. It was a different
situation entirely.
Mr. Stripling. What is the policy of the J. A. C. L. regarding the
segi'egiition within the relocation centers?
Mr. Kanazawa. We are definitely for it.
IMr. Stripling. You are for segregation ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir ; and the earlier the better.
Mr. Stripling. What segregation do you propose?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, we leave that to the W. E. A. officials to carry
out.
Mr. Stripling. What has been the attitude of the W. R. A. officials
regarding segregation ?
Mr. Kanazawa. It has been for it.
Mr. Stripling. They have been for it ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, but not as early as we had hoped for.
Mr. Stripling. Have they taken any steps that you know of in any
relocation center?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; they have.
Mr. Stripling. What center?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9487
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe at Topaz they have. They have sent sev-
eral of the people to a camp in Aloab, Idaho.
Mr. Stkipi.ixg. Those were persons of a crinimal tendency; were
they not ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. Xo; not entirely. They did take some in the first
group, Ixu they also started Aveeding them out later.
Mr. STKirLiNo. But, tlici'e has been no eH'ort on the part of the Wur
Relocation Authority, so far as you know, to segregate the Japanese
of known loyalty from those of known disloyalty^
Mr. Kaxazawa. I believe the general policy has been set up, but
I woidd like to refer that to Mr. Myer,
Mr. Stuii'lixg. You say that it is the policy of J. A. C. L. to seg-
regate ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. Yes, sir; to favor that program.
Mr. Stkipi.txo. Now, do they favor the segregation of the Nisei and
the Issei and the Kibei?
Mr. Kaxazawa. No; just the loyal from the disloyal.
Mv. SxRiFLtNG. On August 14, i942, did you write this letter to Mr.
Ernst L. Maag, delegate in Canada of the International Red Cross
Committee ?
Mr. Kanazaw^a. I believe I did ; yes, sir.
Mr. Stkipltxg. This is a letter dated August 14, 1942, written by
Mr. Kanazawa to Mr. Ernst. L. Maag, delegate in Canada of the In-
ternational Red Cross Committee, Montreal, Quebec, Canada [read-
ing:]
We understand that you have made an inspection of all camps for the Inter-
national Rod Cross. Would it be possible for you lo spare us a copy of your
report. We vv-ould value it highly.
Our league of more than 2U,U0U American citizens of Japanese ancestry, repre-
sented by our national secretary, Mike Masaoka, has been acting in a consultative,
advisory, and coopf^rative capacity with Government otficials and departments
liere, and particularly with the War Relocation Authority, whicli has ( harpje of
the west coast i^-acuation in this country. Our work, naturalJy, is in the interest
of all The .Japanese evacuees in the United States.
We would like to have any additional material and information you may
have on the status of Canadians of .Japanese ancestry, of the basis and r-^asons
for the evacuation, whether the army or civilians were in charge, the pronounce-
ments, the zones, if any, set up, any voluntary evacuation, centers to which
moved, where and when, any loyalty hearing boards, relocation, whether
Indivitlually, in groups, or en masse, conditions, etc.
We ai-e enclosing herewith Nnrman Thomas booklet, Democracy and Japanese
Americans.
AVe deeply appn'ciate anytJiing that j'ou may be able to do for us, and take
this oi)portunity of thanking you.
Sincerely,
Joe Kanazawa, Secretary.
"Why were you interested in the Japanese of Canada, Mr. Kana-
zawa?
Mr. Kaxazawa. That letter is dated August 14?
Mr. Stripi.ixg. Yes.
Mr. Kaxazawa. Well, we thought we might get some suggestions
from Canadians in the way they had worked out their program, too,
in carrying out the program here.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were the Japanese on the west coast of Canada
evacuated from area?
9488 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kanazawa. They were ; yes, sir.
]Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know the date on which that evacuation took
place?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I am not familiar with it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether it was prior to the evacuation
in this country or not ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I couldn't say positively.
Mr. CosTELLO. What do you think? Do you think it was before
we had done it here, or afterwards ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I really don't kjiow, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. You do not have any particular knoAvledge of that?
Mr. Kanazawa. No.
Mr. CosTEELO. Do you know anything about how the Canadian
Government is handling the Japanese evacuees there ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I think they are doing it a lot diiferently from
ours. It is what they call a work camp settlement, where the evac-
uees are more or less on a self-subsisting basis, but I am not too
familiar to sa}' absolutely about that.
Mr. CosTELLo. But all the Japanese were removed from the west
coast of Canada as they were from the west coast of the United
States.
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir. ■
Mr. CosTELLo. And they were removed to the interior of the coun-
try?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were there any restrictions on their activities sub-
sequently, or all placed in camps, and so forth ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I believe they also instituted a resettlement pro-
gram, but I am not familiar with it.
Mr. CosTELLO. So far as you know, the}' have followed a similar
program we have of placing Japanese in relocation centers.
Mr. Kanazawa, Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELEO. And providing work for them at those centers.
Mr. Kanazaa\a. Yes, sir. I believe it is this way, that a group
may go to a i-egular camp and work there and things like that, but
I am not positive.
Mr. CosTELLO. They are being employed up there by private firms,
in some manner, so that they are able to provide for their own
subsistence ^
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is all.
^Ir. Stripling. Mr. Kanazawa, do you belicA^e that a Buddhist
chaplain should be permitted in the special Japanese combat units of
the Army?
Mr. Kanazam^\. I believe they should be, for this reason. Bud-
dhism is a religion, and it is good to China, India, Japan, many of
the oriental countries, and it is one of the things — freedom of religion
is one of the things^ — we are fighting for and that Ave sliould have a
good number of Buddliists in these combat teams. I believe they are
due to have one.
Mr. Stripling. Does not Buddhism also preach Emperor worship?
Mr. Kanazaava. I don't know.
UX-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9489
Mr. SnapuNG. You sent a telegram — it is not dated, but it is on
I he letterhead of the Western Union — to Mike Musaoka, care of
Pacific Citizen, in ^yhich you said:
War Department auiiouiR'es seeking Buddhist chaplain fur combat unit would
also consider Nisei Christian minister if latter tried hard to get in check with
Tad Hirota on Masaru Kuroata if latter interested and would pass loyalty-
screening wire Stimsons relea>:e morning.
Mr. Kanazawa. This story broke in the Washington Post so I im-
mediately wired to Mike Masaoka about that fact.
Mr. Stkipijng. The J. A. C. L. is not opposed then to the presence
of Buddhist chaplains?
Mr. Kanazawa. It was not opposed to that, no.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know the difference between Chinese and
Japanese Buddhism?
Mr. Kanazaw' A. No ; I am not familiar with that.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know that there are two very distinct sects
of Buddhism, one of which is confined to Japan?
Mr. Kanazawa. No; I am not familiar w^ith that.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know that Buddhism is nonexistent in In-
dia, even though it originated there?
Mr. Kanazawa, No, sir ; that is something new to me.
Mr. INIatthews. AAliere did you live before you went into the Army ?
What was your address?
Mr. Kanazawa. 1324 Fourteenth NW., apartment 5.
Mr. Matthews. Apartment 5?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Did Paul Abe live in apartment 4 at the same
address?
Mr. Kanazawa. He did ; yes, sir.
Mr. ^Matthews. Are those two apartments on the same floor?
Mr. Kanazawa. They are.
Mr. Matthews. Are they the only two apartments on that floor?
Mr. Kanazawa. They are.
Mr. IMatthews. How long did you live next door to the Abes?
Mr. Kanazawa. Let me see. I don t know exactlv when we moved
in. but I believe it was last fall.
Mr. Matthew^s. Some months?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; some months.
Mr. IMatthews. A good part of last year.
Mr. Kanazawa. I think it was right after New Year's that we moved
in there.
Mr. ]\Iatthe'\vs. You know Paul Abe?
^Fr. Kanazawa. Yes: T do.
Mr. Matthews. And Mrs, Abe?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes; T do.
Mr. Matthews. You have had frequent contacts with them, living
next door to them ?
Mr. Kanazaw^a. Yes.
^Tr. ]Nr atthews. You kTipw that Abe had worked for approximately
4 years at the Japanese Emba.ssy?
ATr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you know anything about the nature of his
WDrk at the Japanese Embassy?
9490 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; I was not familiar with it.
JMr. ^Matihews. Did he. ever inform you that he had been engaged
in decoding work at the Embassy?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; he never has.
jMr. IMatthews. Did he ever talk to you or convey to you any con-
fidential information derived from his presence at the Japanese Em-
bassy? .
Mr. Kanazaw^a. No ; for the reason I was in New York all this time.
Mr. Mattuews. Well, but since you became acquainted with him.
Mr. Kanazawa, No ; he never did tell me anything about his work.
Mr. ISIatthews. Did he ever tell you as the result of his working at
the Japanese Embassy- that he had derived what he calls an intuition
that war was in the ofling between the Ignited States and Japan?
Mr. Kanaz.\wa. I don't believe he told me that.
Mr. Mattheavs. Did you hear him testify to that effect yesterday?
]\Tr. Kanazawa. I wasn't here.
Mr. Matthews. You were not here when he testified ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you know that he had received a scholarship
to attend George Washington University through the Japanese Em-
bassy?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. From the Foreign Office of the Tolryo Government ?
]Mr. Kanazaava. I don't know where, but I believe he did have a
scholarship, but I am not sure.
]Mr. Matthews. Did he tell you he had such a scholarship ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; he didn't tell me directly.
]\Ir. Matthews. You learned it from other sources?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes.
Mr. Mattheavs. Did anyone ever tell you why he did not ask for a
renewal of that scholarship?
Mr. Kanazawa. No.
Mr. Mattheavs. Do you know what his testimony is on that point?
Mr. Kanazawa. No; I do not know.
Mr. Matthews. Were you the executiA^e secretary of the Japanese
American Committee for Democracy?
Mr. Kanazaaa^a. Yes ; I Avas — not executive secretary.
Mr. Mattheavs. Recording secretary.
Mr. Kanazaaa^\. Recording secretary.
IMr. Mattheavs. What was your ansAver to the question propounded
by Mr. Strijoling concerning the Communist character of the Japa-
nese American Committee for Democracy ? Are you convinced that it
was strictly a Communist organization ?
]Mr. Kanazaaa^'^. No ; I am not convinced.
Mr. Mattheavs. You are not couAdnced of that.
Mr. Kanazawa. No.
Mr. INIatthews. Do a^ou know Roger Baldwin ?
Mr. K^nazaaa'^a. Yes; I do.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether Roger Baldwin resigned
from the Japanese American Committee for Democracy?
Mr. Kanazaava. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Mattheavs. Because he came to the conclusion that- it Avas abso-
lutely controlled by Communists?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9491
Mr. Kaxazawa. Yes ; that is a conclusion he reached, and I know
that lie did resign for that reason.
Mr. Maiihkws. You know that he did reach that conclusion, you
say.
'Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I think in his letters — he didn't mention it
in his letter of resignation, but he was disturbed by the position that
J. A. C. L. was taking on such things as evacution.
Mr. Matthews. Well, was he disturbed by the Comnuinist control
of the organization ?
Mr, Kaxazawa. It is possible. I wouldn't know about that.
]Mr. Matthews. Did he ever tell you about it ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No ; he never told me.
Mr. jMatthews. Has anyone ever told you that he had held that
opinion ?
]\Ir. Kaxazawa. No.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know Lewis jSIerrill, member .of the Ad-
vii^ory Board of the ,Y. A. C. L. ? He is head of the United Office
and Professional Workers Union of the C. I. O.
Mr. Kanazawa. I am not familiar with him. I tliink he must
have become an adA'isoiy member after I left New York.
Mr. ]Matthev\'s. Did you know Katherine Terrill?
Mr. Kanazawa. No; I never met her.
Mr. Matthews. She was on the board, though.
Mr. Kanazawa. She was one of the first members on the board.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether Katherine Terrill is a Com-
munist or not ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I don't know.
Mr. ^Matthews. Do you know whether Franz Boaz, the deceased
anthropologist at Columbia University, was well known as a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I don't believe any of our advisory board members
were known as Communists.
]Vfr. Matthews. A recent witness before this committee. Mr. Good-
will Watson, whose name you have seen in the paper, recently testified
that he suspected any organization of being communistic on the mere
ground that Franz Boas was connected with it.
Mr. Kanazaava. I see.
Mr. Matthews. Have you ever heard of Boaz' reputation to that
effect?
Mr. Kanazawa. No; I hadn't; in fact, I was rather impressed by
his general reputation as a scientist.
Mr. ISIatthews. Do you know Abner Green?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes ; I do know him.
Mr. ]\Iattheavs. Was Abner Green a high official in the Interna-
tional Workers Order ?
Mr. Kaxazawa. I don't know him. I just know him as a member
of the committee. I belieA'e it was of the American Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Mattheavs. Do you know anything about the American Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Kanazaava. Not too much.
Mr. Mattheavs. Do j^ou consider it a Communist organization ?
'9492 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Kanazawa. I don't consider it Communist. i
Ml'. Matthews. You do not ?
Mr. Kanazawa. No,
Mr. Matthews. Do you consider the International Workers Order
a Communist order?
Mr. Kanazawa. I am not familiar with the order.
Mr. Matthews. AVhat reason liave you to think that the Amer-
ican Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born is not a Com-
munist organization?
Mr. Kanazawa. Well, I have no reason to say.
,Mr. Matthews. You have no reason to think that it is.
Mr. Kanazawa. I have no reason to think that it is or it is not;
I don't know.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. But you know that Abner Green is connected with
it, do you not ?
Mr. Kanazawa. Yes ; I do know that.
Mr. Matthews. If you were shown checks payable to the American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, in very substantial
sums, f lom Communist sources, would that convince yon of any Com-
munist connection ?
Mr. Kanazawa. It would seem like factual evidence there.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about A. Clayton Powell's
political connections ?
Mr, Kanazawa. No; I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Is he not widely held to be one of the Communist
representatives on the city council of New York?
Mr. Kanazawa, I don't believe so.
Mr, Matthews. Well, he is not on the Communist Party ticket,
I grant you. but is he not known as a Communist in New York?
Mr. Kanazawa. Not that I am aware of.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know anything about the numerous con-
nections with front organizations of the Communist Party which
Bishop McConnell has had?
Mr. Kanazawa. I am not familiar with that.
Mr. Matthews. Then it is your distinct conclusion that the or-
ganization of which you were recording secretary was not a Com-
munist front organization ?
Mr. Kanazawa. I do,
Mr. Matthews. That is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. Thank you very much for the testimony you have
given here before the cojnmittee. The committee is going to stand
in recess until 10:30 tomorrow morning, at which time we hope that
Mr, Mike Masaoka will be available in the city. I understand he
has not yet arrived in town, and for that reason we will not have a
hearing this afternoon.
The connnittee will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10 : 80,
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m. an adjournment was taken until
10:30 a. m,, July 3.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
SATURDAY, JULY 3, 1943
House of Rf:pRESENTATi'\^s,
Subcommittee or the Special Committee
TO Investigate Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C
The subcommittee met at 10:30 a. m. in room 1301, House Office
Buildino;. the Honorable John M. Costello (chairman of the sub-
committee), presidino;.
Present: Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, Hon. Her-
man P. Eberharter.
Also present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; J. B.
Matthews, director of research for the committee.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. Call the first
witness.
Mr. Stripling. jMr. Masaoka.
TESTIMONY OF MIKE MASAOKA
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. Costello. Give your name to the reporter so that we can hear
you.
Mr. Masaoka. Pvt. Mike Masaoka.
Mr. Matthews. Where were you born ?
Mr. Masaoka. I was born in Fresno, Calif., the 15th day of October
1915.
Mr. Matthews. Were your parents born in Japan ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. My father passed away in 1924. My mother
is now in Chicago.
Mr. ]Matthews, Do you have any brothers and sisters '?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes;' I have five brothers, four of whom are either
in the Army of the United States or about to be inducted.
^Ir. ^Matthews. Where is the other one ?
Mr. ]Masaoka. The other one is in Denver, Colo.
Mr. Matthews. What is he doing?
Mr. Masaoka. He is Avorking for the Japanese American Citizens
League.
Mr. ]Matthews. Do you have any sisters ?
Mr. Masaoka. I have two sisters; one working in Chicago and the
other in the Poston relocati<m center.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have auy close relatives in Japan ?
Mr. ]ilASA0KA. Xot to my knowledge.
949.3
9494 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Are you married?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. What is your wife's name?
Mr. Masaoka. Etsui Mineta Masaoka.
Mr. Matthews. Where were you educated ?
Mr. Masaoka. I was educated in Salt Lake City, Utah, through
the grammar school, through the high school, and the State Univer-
sity of Utah.
Mr. Matthews. Did you graduate from the State university ?
Mr. Masaoka. I did ; in 1937.
Mr. Matthews. What has been your employment record since
your graduation from college ?
Mr. Masaoka. From the time I graduated until September 1, 1940, 1
was engaged in a number of different activities. I was a school
teacher for a while.
Mr. Matthews. Where did you teach school?
Mr. Masaoka. I taught at the West Side High School and the State
university.
Mr. Matthews. In Salt Lake City ?
Mr. Masaoka. In Salt Lake City.
Mr. Matthews. What did you teach?
Mr. Masaoka. Public speaking.
Mr. Matthews. Did you major in public speaking in college?
Mr. Masaoka. No, sir. I majored in political science and history,
with a minor in economics.
Mr. Matthews. Did you teach public speaking at the university?
Mr. Masaoka. On a part-time basis, yes, sir ; in fact, I was a fresh-
man debate coach.
Mr. Matthews. What was the date of your employment at the uni-
versity ?
Mr.* Masaoka. Approximately 1936 to 1938.
Mr. Matthews. What was your salary?
Mr. Masaoka, It was largely on a scholarship basis. I worked in
return for tuition and that sort of thing.
Mr. Matthews. Did you teach in the West Side High School in Salt
Lake after you were an instructor at the university, or at the same
time ?
Mr. Masaoka. Both at the same time and after.
Mr. Matthews. About what date did your employment in the West
Side High School terminate?
Mr. Masaoka. About 1939.
Mr. Matthews. What did you do after 1939 ?
Mr. Masaoka. A number of minor jobs, including the editing of
the Enclish section of the Japanese Nippon newspaper.
Mr. Matthews. Is that a privately owned newspaper?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir. I believe it was a Utah corporation.
Mr. Matthews. A Utah corporation?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe it is ; yes.
Mr. Matthews. Does it formally or informally have any connec-
tion with any organization other than a publishing concern?
Mr. Masaoka. Not to my knowledge. You see, I do not speak
the Japanese language. I cannot read or write it.
Mr. Matthews. I mean by that, was it considered a mouthpiece for
some Japanese organization in particular?
UN-AAIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9495
Mr. IMasaoka. I don't believe so.
Mr. jMatthews. How long were you employed on that newspaper'^
Mr. Masaoka. Until about August of 19-iO, at which time I went to
the Pacific coast on a vacation, and then was appointed as the national
secretary and field executive for the Japanese American Citizens
Lieague ?
]\ir. Matthews. On what date did you begin your employment with
the .Japanese American Citizens League?
Mr. Masaoka. September 1, 1940.
Mr. Matthews. And where did you reside while you were first em-
ployed with the Japanese American Citizens League?
Mr. Masaoka. My legal residence has always been in the State of
Utah. ISIy domicile, however, was in San Francisco, Calif.
Mr. Matthews. "Were you elected to that position by the Japanese
American Citizens League or were you invited by the officials of the
organization, or how did you become secretary of the Japanese Ameri-
can Citizens League ?
Mr. ]NL\SAOKA. I was appointed by the national board. If you
please, at this time I would like to make a statement about the general
organizational structure and history.
Mr. jMatthews. Well, I am going to ask you about that presently.
You were appointed by the national board of the organization.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr, ]\Iatthews. As executive secretary of it?
Mr. Masaoka. The title is a rather long and ponderous one — national
secretary and field executive.
Mr. ^Matthews. National secretary and field executive of the Jap-
anese American Citizens League.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Where were you residing at the time of the CA'acua-
tiou of Japanese and those of Japanese ancestry from the Pacific
coast ?
Mr. Masaoka. I was residing in San Francisco.
Mr. Matthews. Were 3'ou among those who were evacuated?
Mr. Masaoka. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews, How did you manage to not be involved in the evac-
uation : what were the circumstances ?
Mr. ]Masaoka. I was instructed b}' the War Department not to men-
tion the military matters involved. That, I think is a part of that
consideration.
Mr. CosTEixo. Would you repeat the question, please.
(Question read.)
Mr. CosTELLO. You were in San Francisco, you say, at the time of the
evacuation ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. What was the date on which you left San Francisco?
Mr. Masaoka. Approximately toward the middle part of May, I
would sav, of 1941 ; rather, 1942.
Mr. CosTELLO. May of 1942.
Mr. Masaoka. Approximately.
Mr. CosTELLo. Do you recall the date on which the evacuation order
was made?
Mr. Masaoka. The first date for San Francisco?
9496 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLo. Yes.
Mr. Masaoka. Approximately 2 weeks earlier, I believe, sir.
Mr. C'csTELLO. That was the order that caused all the people of
Japanese ancestry to be evacuated ?
Mr. I^lAsAOKA.*^Out of that particular section in which I was resid-
ing ; yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You remained an extra 2 weeks in that area?
Mr. Masaoka. Not in that particular area ; no, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Where did you remain then i
Mr. Masacka. I moved to another section.
Mr. CosTELLO, Of tlie city of San Francisco ?
Mr. Masaoka. Of t^;- city of San Francisco.
Mr. CosTELLO. AYliich was not designated as a restricted area?
Mr. Masaoka. At that time; yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. What were yoii doing at that particular period?
Mr. Masaoka. My job, of course, was to, if possible, aid the Govern-
ment in helping in the evacuation. Tliat was my primary job at
that time.
Mr. CosTELLO. You were helping in the work of evacuation?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. Of the other people of Japanese ancestry in that area ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. Until May 14?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, approximately.
Mr.' CoSTELLO. Where did you go wdien you left San Francisco?
Mr. Masaoka. To Salt Lake City, and then I came here.
Mr, CosTELLo. Proceed.
Mr. Matthews. At that time you were national secretary and field
executive of the Japanese American Citizens League ?
Mr. Masaoka. I was.
Mr. Matthews. Did you at the time of evacuation, immediately
prior thereto or immediately afterward, volunteer any information to
such agencies of the Government as the Federal Bureau of Investiga-
tion, information which might have been useful to tliose agencies?
Mr. Masaoka. I did.
Mr. Matthews. When did you leave Salt Lake City to come east?
Mr. Masaoka. In the latter part of may.
Mr. Matthew^s. Of 1942?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. You remained only a few davs then in Salt Lake
City?
Mr. Masaoka. Approximately a week, I believe. These, you under-
stand, are approximate dates.
Mr. Matthews. Yes. When did you set \\\\ your headquarters in
Washington ?
Mr. Masaoka. In the first part of June of that year, I beli'eve.
Mr. Matthews. How long did you continue thereafter as national
secretary and field executive of the Japanese American Citizens
League ?
Mr. Masaoka. Until the date of mj^ induction into the armed forces,
which was June 14.
Mr. Matthews. Of this year?
Mr. Masaoka. Of this year.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9497
Mr. Matthews. AVhat dato did you become a member of the Japa-
nese American Citizens League?
Mr. Masaoka. In Salt Lake City we had a Japanese American Citi-
zens League ]o)ig before it was affiliated with the national organiza-
tion. I became a member of that Salt Lake City chapter, which was
not at that time a part of tlie national organization, in approximately
1937. The Salt Lake City chapter became a member of the national
organization ajiproximately in 1940.
Partlon me. ]\lay I correct a date tliere? I became national sec-
retary of the Japanese American Citizens League on September 1, 1941.
1 am sorry.
In September of 1940 the Japanese American Citizens League held
a conference in Seattle, and it was 1 year thereafter that I became the
national secretaiT. In 1940 the Salt Lake chapter and the Intermoun-
tain District Council became affiliated with the national organization.
Mr. Matthews. You stated a moment ago that you wished to make
a statement concerning the set-up of the Japanese American Citizens
League.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Mati'Hews. Will you give a brief statement to that effect and
include as much as you think is pertinent to indicate what the organi-
zation is and what it stands for ?
Mr. Masaoka. I will be very happy to. The Japanese American
Citizens League is an organization composed of loyal Americans of
Japanese ancestry 18 years of age or more. Everj^ member is re-
quired by the constitution to sign a special oath of allegiance to the
Goveinment of the United States at the time that he becomes a
member.
At the time of evacuation we had approximately 20,000 members
throughout the United States; most of them, of course, on the Pacific
coast and in the intermountain area. Our organization, although na-
tional in name, did not actually become national as the word denotes,
until after I had assumed office in 1941. The reason for that, I think,
is quite obvious.
The Japanese people are a comparatively new minority in the
United States. Oiu- foreign generation is rather old. We, the Amer-
ican citizens, are comparative! v voung todav, onlv averaging about
21 years oi age.
Away back in the late twenties some of the leaders of the Japanese
America u group in the Xorthwest and elsewhere thought that there
should be a civic, patriotic organization composed of loyal Americans
of Ja]:)anese ancestry. That was the beginning of the Japanese
American Citizens League. But, because most of the Japanese
people, Japanese American people, if you please, were too young to
be independent in business and elsewhere, that nnishroom growth dis-
appeared until about 1930, when some of the older of the Japanese
American group were now established in business.
These young men and young women, as probablv all othei- na-
tionality groups do. banded together under the banner of the Japa-
nese American Citizens League.
One word of explanation about the selection of the name Japanese
American Citizens League. There is no hyphen between the word
Japanese and American. In other words, we are not, never in-
9498 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
tended, and do not now intend to be a hyphenated group of Japanese
Americans in this country. Japanese is simply a modifying, quali-
fying adjective to the noun American.
Now, because of our loose affiliation, because we had no paid execu-
tive until the 1st of September 1940, munj of our local chapters were
joractically autonomous. They carried on as they saw fit. with little
or no relationship to the national organization, and it was not until
September 1, 1941, that we tried to bring the groups together and
to really solidify the national unit.
The Japanese American Citizens groups, just as any other na-
tional groups, were rather divided among themselves. They were
young. They were interested in establishing a business and a liveli-
hood for themselves, that they did not spend too much time in this
sort of matter.
Since the war and immediately after the war. as the testimony
before the Tolan committee will indicate, the Japanese American
Citizens groups rendered a tremendous service to the Government of
the United States, at the same time rendering a service to the Japa-
nese communities, which includes both the Japanese nationals and
the Japanese American citizens.
Now we see a tie-up between the two in this manner : Most of us,
that is, American citizens of Japanese ancestry, believe in the United
States. We are utterly foreign to Japan. We were educated here,
made our friends here, built our associations, ambitions, and dreams
right here in the American way. We would be foreigners and enemies
of Japan if we ever get there, and we know it. We could not tolerate
their system of life ; we could not tolerate their system of government
or their system of thinking.
Now, with tliat thought in mind, when war came, we did the best
we could to help out an unfortunate minority, a minority which has
been subjected, if j'ou please, to man^'^ persecutions and unfortunate
incidents because of the fact that they happened to be born, not
because they asked it or wished it, but simply because they happened
to be born with the same plwsical characteristics as the enemy abroad.
As far as I m3'Self am concerned and many of my colleagues, the
attack on Pearl Harbor was a dastardly deed, and it hurt us more
than it hurt the average American, because by their actions they
made it tough for us. And we are going to do everything possible to
make tliem eat, if you please, those words.
Now, the Japanese American Citizens League, as you gentlemen
know, is unpopular among the Japanese American groups. Why?
Simply because we believe in the security of the United States first,
and in the winning of the war. That is our prime consideration.
At the time when national unity was desirable and necessary, when
there was much prejudice against the Japanese people, when the Gov-
ernment of the United States called upon persons of Japanese ancestry,
as their contribution to the war effort, to evacuate, the Japanese Amer-
ican Citizens League took the lead in cooperation with the Government,
as can be indicated in the Tolan report.
Mr. Matphews. I would like to ask you this question. You said that
the .fapaiiese American Citizens League is unpopular among the Jap-
anese Americans. How do vou reconcile that with the claim of
membership of 20,000 ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9499
]\Ir. Masaoka, That needs clarification. I am sorry I made that con-
fiisino'. We had at the time of the evacuation approximately 20,000
members. We do not have tluit now.
Now, M'hen I say "unpopular with the Japanese Americans" may I
qualify it by saying "un})opular with some militant minority groups."
Now ours is an organization comparable to any democi-atic society.
We take in all kinds. We liave our cranks. We have our people who
are alarmists and who are clamity howlers. We have groups that dis-
agree with the policy as fornuilated by the national board. With these
groups, seemingly, we have been very unjiopular.
Mr. Maithews. Now, what do you estimate the membership in the
organization was when you left your position as national secretary last
month?
j\Ir. Masaoka. It would run into possibly 5,000 paid as of date.
jMr. IMatthews. And how long was that the figure; during your
entire administrative work in the organization?
Mr. jNIasaoivA. No, sir. jNIost of the time it was considerably higher.
Mr. IMatthews. You mean tiiere was a continued falling off of the
membership ?
Mr. JV'UsAOKA. No, sir. When I first assumed my post I think the
membership ran to three or four thousand. We built it up gradually,
gi-adually. aiid gradually until it reticlied its peak.
Mr. Matthews. Which was what?
Mr. Masaoka. Which was approximately 20,000.
Then, of course, because we have membership dues, and the like,
Avhen the people Avere evacuated and they received these low salaries,
which they do in relocation centers, naturally the membership would
fall off. iVs far as the free zones — that is, the nonevacuated zones —
were concerned, our membership has suddenly risen even after evacua-
tion.
Mr. IMatthews. To what figure did it fall at the time of evacuation?
]Mr. ]Masaoka. It has never fallen below tlie figure I gave you — 5,000.
Mr. MuNDT. How much are your annual dues? •
Mr. Masaoka. Our annual dues, if they are an associate member, are
S3.;j0 a year, which includes a year's subscription to the Pacific Citizen.
Mr. Mtjxdt. You say they are classed as members if they are associate
members?
Mr. Masaoka. We hav# two types of membership, Congressman
!Mundt. One is chapter membership. Now, most of those chapters
were destroyed, of course, by evacuation, and. that caused a problem
there, therefore we created what we call the associated memberships
to take over that slack, and they are what we largely have today,
outside of approximately 11 chapters, 12 chapters, that we have in the
Intej'nu)Unlain district.
]Mr. MrxDT. How much are the annual membership dues of a Jap-
anese American who is also a chapter member?
Mr. Masaoka. That depends entirely on the chapter. You see, the
chajiters levy tlieir dues; a portion of which goes to national head-
quarters.
Mr. MuNDT. $3.50?
Mr. ]\Pasaoka. $3.50 for the asscK-iated membership, and the others
would be a break-down. If they take the Pacific Citizen it is $2, plus
$35 per year per chapter levy, plus 25 cents per membership card, so
9500 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
approximately with the Pacific citizen, shall we say it runs almost $3?
Mr. Matthews. I understand your testimony is that in May and
June of this year the membership was roughly 5,000; is that correct?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Did you during this tin»e, say May and June of this
year, publicly or privately claim a much larger membership^
Mr. Masaoka. We did, on this basis. In, let me say, when we held
■ our last meeting in San Francisco, it was decided at that time to more
or less freeze our membership, that is, to continue them on the books
for the duration.
Mr. Matthews. What date was that?
Mr. Masaoka, That would be in March 1942.
Mr. Matthew^s. You mean, you decided just to say that you had
20,000 members whether you did or did not?
Mr. Masaoka. We had tliem on the books at that time.
Mr. Matthews. Well, when did y(m drop them from the books?
Mr. Masaoka. We never have. The ,5.()()() which I refer to are the
paid memberships as of date.
Mr. Stkipeing. Mr. Cliairman, at that point I would like to intro-
duce in evidence a record which was obtained by subpena on June 11
from the headquarters of the Japanese American Citizens League, a
folder which is marked "J. A. C. L. membership,"' and ask the wit-
ness to identify it if he can.
Mr. Masaoka. I have never examined them individually, but I do
Icnow that we received them.
Mr. STRiri.ixG. Mr. Chairman, there are 36 images of names here.
Each page is headed "Membership list," and then un^ler it '"Active
members division." There are 36 pages with 15 names to the page;
approximately 1,800 names.
Also the connnittee obtained a list entitled "J. A. C. L. Associate
Membership List for 1943." Would you identify that ?
Mr. Masaoka. Again, I can recognize it generally.
Mr. Stkiplikg. There are approximately 600 names on that list.
There are 1,800 actual members and 600 associate members, according
to the records of the organization.
Mr. Masaoka, May 1 say I do not believe those records are com-
plete.
Mr. Matthews. Where is it that j^ou ha^ a membership roll which
includes 20,000 names?
Mr. Masaoka. That would be somewhere in San Francisco.
Mr. MuNDT. Any particular place in San Francisco? Do you have
an office there?
I\Ir. Masaoka. We had an office. It is stored somewhere now.
Mr. MuNDT. Who w^ould know where it was stored ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe possibly our national treasurer would, or
national president.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you put their names in the record at this point,
and the addresses?
Mr. Masaoka. Their present address?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Masaoka. Saburo Kido and Hito Okada, Beason Building,
Salt Lake City.
UN-AM ERICAX PKOFACiAXDA ACTIVITIES 9501
May I say this for the record, at the time of the evacuation there
was much confusion. Many of the records were lost. These may be
among thcnn.
Mr. Matthkws. Did the organization consider those who had ceased
paying dues, members?
Mr. ]NTasa()KA. As paying members, yes, naturally.
Mr. Matthkws. Well, what do your bylaws and constitution specify
as to the requirements for membership in that regard?
Mr. Masaoka. Let me see. I believe you have the constitution
here. May I quote from it ?
Mr. Maithews. Well, you are familiar with the stipulation.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I want to be exactly sure of the stipulation.
Mr. Matthews. Did you write a letter to one Dr. Morris Edward
Opler on iSlay IH. 1943^ I show you a carbon of a letter and ask you
if you wrote that. You did ?
Mr. Masaoka. I did.
Mr. Matthews. Did you write numerous such letters as this; by
that I mean, express the same sentiments as are expressed in para-
graph 1 of that letter?
Ml-. Mv'^aoka. Xnt numerous, no. I believe this is the only one of
its kind T have written.
Mr. Matthews. The first paragraph of this letter states :
May T take this opportunity to thank you on hphalf of the 20.0C0 menihers
of the Japnnesp American Citizens League as well as all American citizens of
Japnnese jincpstry in this countiy for yonr splendirl research work on our
problems wliich were made available to us for our briefs. Amicus Curiae, in
behalf of Regan and evacutition cases.
dated May 13, 1943.
Yon say (hat yon did continne to claim a membership of 20,^00
even though you think you actually had about 5.000?
Mr. Masaoka. Paid membership; I make that distinction.
Mr. Matthews. You admit that so far as your office here was
concerned, you had records of (mly some two or three thousand mem-
bers, both associate and active; is that right?
Mr. Masaoka. As of that particular date, perhaps. Now, I never
examined them word for word or name by name.
Mr. Matthews. Well, this was the membership list that a'OU used,
was it not; the one you had here in your office?
Mr. Masaoka. "WHiat do you mean by the word "used"?
Mr. IVIatthews. Well, did you ever send out any communications to
your members?
Mr. ]Masaoka. Not to those members, specifically.
Mr. Matthews. How is that?
Mr. Masaoka. I did not send out to those members specifically.
Mr. Mattthavs. Will you tell the connnittee why you kept a mem-
beishij) record of this kind I What did you use it for?
Mr. Masaoka. I didn't use it.
Mr. ]\rvrTHEWs. Well, what did you have it in the ' ffice for?
Mr. Masaoka. Just as a matter of information, I b;'lieve.
Mr. Mattttews. Wei', tlie information contained therein is that you
had approximately 1.800 members.
Mr. INIasaoka. Those were the ]")aid members.
Mr. Matthews. You had apj)roximately l.SOO ])aid memlx-rs?
62626 — t3^vol. 15-
9502 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACT1V1T1E6
Mr. Masaoka. At tliat time from those records it would seem to
be so.
Mr. Matthews. What is the date of that?
Mr, Stripling. The associate membership list is marked 1943.
Mr. Masaoka. Is the date given, sii-?
Mr. Stripling. Yes; it is given, the date on whicli they all joined,
over in the left-hand column.
Mr. Masaoka. That is when they paid.
Mr. Stripling. Yes; all the way through.
Mr. Masaoka. I did not conmumicate or use that membership list.
Mr, Matthew^s. You did not wliat?
Mr. Masaoka. I did not use that list to eomuninicate with my mem-
bers, if that is what you mean.
Mr. Matthews. It is the record of the payment of dues; in other
words, you had about 1,800 paid-u]) active members.
Mr. Masaoka. As of that particidar date.
Mr. Matthews, In May of this year.
Mr. Masaoka. That may be right.
Mr. Matthews. So that your figuie of r>,(;00 is still somewhat an
exaggeration, is it not?
Mr. Masaoka. It may be. I think I would like the explanation be-
yond that, and I think we might as well be realistic about the whole
thing.
Mr. Matthews. I am sure tl:e connnittee wants to know the measure
of authority with which your group has spoken or claimed to speak for
Ja])anese- American citizens.
iNIr. Masaoka. I think that is a very legitimate OjUestion. and if I
may have the time to describe it without interrui)ti<)n, I think we will
be able to get at the point.
There is no group, persons of Jajianese ancestry in this country, who
is organized to present properly their case, so we feel, except the
Japanese American Citizens League. We, at least, hiwe a membership
of one kind or another in each of the relocation centers. We believe,
thereby, we are best able or more able, let me put it. than any other
group to present the cause of loyal Americans of Jajxinese ancestry.
Xow, is that sufficient? In other words, I am explaining why we feel
I hat we are in a position to represent them better than any other
gr<up.
Mr. CosTELLO. Were there othei- Japanese- American societies other
than this one prior to the period of evacuation ?
Mr. Masaoka. There were quite a number of Japanese societies,
but not Japanese- American societies.
JNIr. Costello. There were various organized American Ja})anese
people.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes ; but most of those, of course, w^ere concerned with
alien Japanese. There were a number of smaller ones concerned with
Japanese, too, but they seemed to have gone out of existence at the
time of the war.
^Fr. Costello. There were very few Japanese-American societies
tl at continued in existence after the start of the Avar.
Mr. Masaoka. I am speaking only foi' the west coast and inter-
nuuntain Japanese. I cannot speak for the East.
Afr. Eberhahter. Do you know whether or not the meetings at the
relocation centers of the J. A. C. L. are confined exclusively to paid
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACnVITIES 9503
iiioinlx'i's or whet her Japanese <:eiierally are permitted to attend the
im-elin<i;s (
Mr. iMasaoka. I (hink that would depend on the relocation centers.
I am not loo familiar with the prc.cedni'e there, but at least, those
that I have knowledge of. particularly in Topaz and Minidoka, 1
would say that they are open to the ])ul)lic at lar^e.
Mr. EriKKiiARTKi!. Are you sni-e of that, Mr. Masaoka?
Mi-. Masaoka. Well, at least Avhen I visited there and visited the
memhership there^ — we have no chapters, you see — visited the nieniber-
.ship theiv, everyone was invited to come to air out their problems and
discuss ways and means of solving; them.
Mr. Matihkws. Durintr recent montlis. while you were still in an ad-
ministrative position in the organizati(m, .you were very much con-
cerned about the small men)befship. were you not?
Ml. Masaoka. Yes.
Mi-. Maitiikws. Did you try to work out some plan or state that
you hoped to work out some j)lan wliereby yon could make all Jap-
anese-Americans automatically members of the Japanese Amei'ican
Citizens LeaiiUe ?
Mr. M \s.\oKA. Well. I think all of us have delusions of o;randeur at
times. AVe played around with the idea, but discarded it pretty
much as beinjr pretty impracticable, especiallj^ inasmuch as we would
lunc to take in all n;anneT' of people, and a lot of them would not
•Avant to eome in anyhow, and Ave would ha\e another problem on our
liands.
Mr. Ma'ittikws. Your projiosal Avas that they would just be auto-
matically made members.
Ml'. AIasa(,ka. I ray have made that kind of proposal in my time.
Mr. MAiTiirAVs. Was not that the phrase that you used^
Mr. Mas\( KA. It may have been a phrase, but Ave have never tried
to de that in any ohjective Avay.
Mr. Matiiikavs. You just thouo;ht about tryin<i; to do it.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, my job. as most of you <>entlemen are ac-
quainted Aviih p'hiic relations men, I suppose, is sim])ly to })ropose
Avays and means of doin^- the Avork. You are thinkin<r about the thin<r
consciously. I would say. I have made a list of projxisals Avhich just
AA'ere ma<te for p>roposals sake. I thiidv that happens a lot in any
democri.tic society.
Mr. M.\TTHKA\s. What Avas the size of the monthlv budiret of the
Japanese American Citizens Lea<riie. say in March. A})ril, and Mav
of this year?
Mr. AIasaoka. I avouUI not be positive of that. I would Inu'e to
^et tho-^e from the records.
Mr. ^Iaitiikws. Well. Avhat expen.^^es did you have?
Mr. Masaoka. ]\Iv personal expenses?
Mr. ^Ia'ititkavs. Yes. AVhat was the budget of the Washing-ton
office, for example^ What would your outlay per month run at the
time?
Mr. ]S[.\s\t)K \. HetAveen three and five liiindred dollars per month.
Mr. Mv'iTHKAvs. How does that compare v^hh the Salt Lake City
office ?
9504 un-american" propaganda activities
Mr. Masaoka. It is niiich (greater than the Salt Lake City office.
You see, I did a lot of travelm«r to New York, to Chicafjo, and else-
where.
Mr. Matthews. Were there any other places where yon had an
office where there would be expense?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, let me say after or just about the time I went
into the armed forces an office was created in Denver, Colo.; poa.sibly
a little previous to my time. Then an office was created also in
Chicago.
Mr. Matthews. Would it be a fair approximation to say that in
March, April, and May of this year the organization as a whole was
spending six or seven hundred dollars a month ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe those can be obtained from the records.
Mr. Matt'HEWS. You said it Avas live or six hundred dollars in
Washington and much less in Salt Lake City.
Mr. Masaoka. Five or six hundred dollars, that may be. I use
the word "may" advisedly. That may be a fair approximation.
Mr. Matthews. "Wliat did you say the dues of membership were?
Mr. Masaoka. $3.50 for associate members. The Intermountain
group-
Mr. Matthews. $3.50 for associate members?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. That, annually?
;Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. jNIatthews. How much for active members?
Mr. Masaoka. It depends on the chapter. What are you driving
at : how we arrived at our finances ?
Mv. Matthews. How ycu got your money, yes.
ilr. Masaoka. All right. That is much easier to explain than
break it down, I think. The Intermountain District Council, com-
posed of approximately 10 chapters contributed $10,000 voluntar'ly
to our treasury this j-ear. In addition, a number of our chapters,
Seattle and otherwise, had some moneys left over in their treasury,
whicli they turned over to us.
Mr. Matthews. Where did they ge't the $10,000? Did they get
that from dues or through subscriptions from persons other than
members?
Mr. Masaoka. They largely got it through contributions from their
o \vn membership as well as other nonmembers.
Mr. Matthews. Where were the dues paid, only to chapters, or did
dues come into the national headquarters?
Mr. Masaoka. Dues came into national headquarters from the
chapters as well as from the individual associate members.
Mr. INIatthews. In your earlier testimony you used an expression
something like this : You said, ''Most of us American citizens of
Japanese ancestry are loyal Americans."
Mr. ]\Iasaoka. Yes, sir.
IMr. Matthp:ws. I take it you recognize that tliere is a ])r()blem
involving some who are not.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I think that is true of siny nationality group.
Mr. Matthews. Well, let us ^xet at your own testintony. Was not
that the problem which led to the decision of the Army to evacuate
jiej'sons of Japanese ancesti-y from the west coast?
UX-AAIERICAN PKOPAGAXD'A ACiniTIE'S 9505
Mr. Masaoiva. I believe tliat is a problem for the military to
jinsAver.
Mr. Matthews. Well, lune you not discussed that frequently in
your correspondence as an exe'cutive of the Jai^anese American Citi-
zens Leairue '.
]Mr. Masaoka. Xcvertlieless. now I am a member of the armed
forces, I don't believe 1 am at liberty to discuss my private views
on the matter.
Mr. ^Iattiikws. Well, wholly apart, from the reasons for evacua-
tion, you recoofnize that thei-e is a problem involvino- the ntitional
safety of tiiis country, which arises out of the disloyalty of, let us
say. a cert:; in portion, without trying to determine what that portion
is. of American citizens of Ja])anese ancestry; that is correct, is it not?
Mr. Masaoka. I think we aj-e all aware of the fact that within any
racial <>roup or within any group of any Americans, of any extrac-
tion, there going to be the loyal and the disloj^al.
Mr. Matthews. Now, at the Poston relocation center, out of some
three or four thousand Nisei, that is. Americans of Japanese ances-
try who Avere asked to sign a statement expressing their loyalty to the
United S.^ates, were there not 680 who refused to express their loyalty
to this coimtrv ?
Mr. IMasaoka. That was. again, a procedure for the War Depart-
ment. It was a policy and program of the War Department.
Mr. Matthews. You are aware of the fact, are you not. that 630
out of thive ()!• four thousand American citizens of Japanese ances-
try refused to express any loyalty to this country I
Mr. Masaoka. I know there were a nvnnber. I am not aware of
the particular specific figure ; no.
Mr. Matthews. AVell. you know it was appropriately that, do
you not ?
Mr. Masaoka. I can't say.
Mr. CosTELLO. The testimony in Los Angeles would indicate that
that was approximately the number.
Mr. Masaoka. I think there was testimony before the Chandler
connnittee and others to indicate that figure.
Mr. Matthews. That was the figure at the Poston camp on that
matter. Well, now, ]\fr. Masaoka. if that ]H-(^portion existed gen-
erally, let us say. anu^ng all Americans, as you have conij^ared Jap-
anese with this country, this country would be lost, would it not?
Mr. Masaoka. That, again. T would have to pass off to the military.
Mr. Mattfiews. Well, if 20 percent of the people, of the citizens of
the United States refu.sed to ex])ress any loyalty to this country, the
country would be in a verj^ bad situation.
Ml'. Masaoka. This is just a personal thought of my own. It may
not have any bearing, relevancy, or anything to the case. I would
like to say this, as far as I know, the records of the F. B. I., the Mili-
tary Intelligence and all the other groups do not indicate a subversive
activity upon the part of the Japanese.
Now. on the ))art of the other alien nationalities there have been
acts, convictions, and indictments of these people; none against per-
sons of Japanese ancestry.
No^y. this is just expressing a thought. Perhaps the Japanese
Americans and others are pretty loyal, I mean, pretty honest, you
V)506 un-americax propaganda activities
know, if they express whether they are going to be loyal or not, and.
therefore, they become a less dangerous group than any other group
because they are willing to state one way or another as to how they
feel to this country. And, I may say 'this, that many of the people
feel as they do because, if you please, of the evacuation, of the condi-
tions within the camps, and the things they have been subjected to
after evacuation.
iNIr. CosTELLO. Was that the feeling at the time of evacuation, or a
feeling that developed subsequent to evacuation ?
Mr. Masaoka, Both. I think it was a collection of many things.
Mr. CosTELLO. You think it was the general feeling of most of the
Japanese at the time of the evacuation that, geneially, it was for their
own good and for their own safety i'
Mr. Masaoka. That is a rather difficult question to ansv.-er.
Mr. CosTEixo. The general express^ion seemed to be that most of the
Japanese at the time of evacuation felt that they were better off being
removed from the Pacific coast area, for various reasons; that should
there be any attack by Japan the Japanese would be suspected, and
l)eing removed from the coastal area, they would not be. Likewise,
the people on the coast, in view of the war and the mannei- in which
it started, displayed a bitter attitude toward the Japanese jx'Ople; they
were insulted and threatened, and so, for theii- own protection, they
felt they would be better off if they were evacuated fiom the Pacific
coast territory.
Mr. jVIasaoka. Of course, on that stand, the Army and the Govern-
ment of the United States requested, in fact, ordered, this. We, as
good, patriotic Americans, interested in the war effort, made it no
less than to comply.
Mr. CosTELLO. My thought was, at the begiiming, i\t the time of
the evacuation there was a feeling of satisfaction with the program of
evacuation, and that any dissatisfaction that they felt toward it was a
feeling that has developed subsequent to the period of evacuation, and
it developed princi])ally in the relocation centers where they have been
congregated together.
Do you care to express any opinion of your own in that i-egard !■
Mr. Masaoka. No, sir; I would not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you not tliink, in regard to the Japanese group,
that the question of dual citizenship arises there whieh materially
affects them as a minority as compared with any other minority'^
Mr. Masaoka. No, sir; I would not. I would sav, and research
would indicate, that all countries, except the Anglo-Saxon countries,
I believe, and two or three others, have a system of dual citizenship
which is comparable or more stringent than the Jai)a]iese regulations
of dual citizenship.
I believe that Japan is the only world power Avhich has taken an
overt action on its own i)art to discourage diuil citizenshij), really.
As we know of the law of December 1, 1924, no person born to Japanese
citizens anywhere in the world or, rather, in certain stipulated coun-
tries, including the United States, w^ould be considerecl a citizen of
Japan if, unless within 5 days, I believe — I am not sure of the figure —
unless within 5 days after birth tlie parents did not register them with
the Japanese Consulate.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9507
The rules of other eoiintries, insofar as (xermans and Italians and
Enixlishnien — not Enii'lishnien. pardon nie, but most European coun-
tries, are far mere riaid (iian tliat of Japan.
Mr. Cosi'FLiX). Is it not a fact that (luile a kr«re number of Japanese
on the Pacific coast did register their children with the c(msulate, or
the authorities?
Mr. IMasaoka. We do not believe so. The difficulty is, of course,
that you cannot prove anythin*:; on that, because the Japanese con-
sulate either destroyed or*^hid the records. My personal opinion is
they are not, for the simple reason that the older or second genera-
tion group grew, the further and further it went from Japan, the less
interested they Avere in matters of that kind.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Japanese American Citizens League, I believe,
obtained a census of the evacuees in the United States centers, did it
not ?
Mr. Masaoka. In the various centers?
Mr. CosTELLO. The relocation centers.
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall the census being taken.
Mr. CosTiXLO. It was my understanding that a census was taken,
and I believe that question was asked of those who registered in the
census as to dual citizenship, and I think it was expressed in an exhibit
hei-e before the committee, in which the first list of names indicates
that all of them were dual citizens, in response to that specific question,
and the answer was "yes" right down the line.
Mr. Masaoka, I am not acquainted with that particular exhibit.
Mr. CosTELLO. I just wondered to what degree that was true.
Mr. IMasaoka. If I could see that exhibit, possibly I could explain it.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have a question, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. Yes. Mr. Chairman, I have a report dated Sep-
tember 19. 104-2. which is signed "Dog Tiredly Mike," to the national
headquarters, addressed to Mr. Saburo Kido and George Inagaki. Do
you recognize this report?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Page 2 of this report reads as follows :
Kido's letter of September 9 —
Kido is the president of the J. A. C L. ; is that right?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. The letter continues:
I've been waitiui; for your report on the me^>tins winch you hehl to organize
inipatit'iitly. The War Relocation Authority has given us the "so ahead" signal
but we must submit our cou'plet*' step-l)y-stcp plans in detail before we can ac-
tually movH ahead. While Kido is thinking in long-time terms, when he suggests
that the original mcmlKn'slilp mii:ht bi' cxdnsivH, from the staiidpnint of my work
we've got to get as many members as hmnanly possible and as fast as we possibly
can. Our biggest talking point is our nieniborshii) — so, please work out a plan
for getting members or some scheme whereby all American citizens over 18 of
Japanese ancestry are autmnatically members. I've got to get in my plans for
the J. A. C. L. toMyer right away, hut I haven't heard from any of the groups,
and this includes Kido.
One paragraph down you state:
I'd much rather know how the fellows in the centers feel about it all, but I can't
let Myer know that our own membership doesn't cooperate with us on the out-
side. ,
9508 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Now. Mr. Masaoka. coming back to tlie first })oi-tion wliich I read,
you stated that —
The War Relocation Autlioriry has given ns the gn-ahead t;igiial hut we must sub-
mit our complete step by step plans in detail before we can aefnally move ahead.
What did you have reference there ?
Mr. Masaoka. The W. R. A., at the time tliat it began its program,
was willing to permit any organization to woi'lv witliin its side provided
that it was a normal function of the Jaj)anese committee; in other
words, they were attempting to simulate noi'inal conditions within the
camp as much as possible.
Here again I must allude to the fact that I get over-enthusiastic at
times, as people will if they work for the organization, and possibly
did exaggerate certain I'eports.
Mr. Str:pling. Had you represented to Mr. Myer. the Director of
War Relocation Authority, that you were representing 20,000 Japan-
ese American citizens or that you were representing a majority of the
people who were interned.
Mr. Masaoka. "Interned"is not the proper word.
Mr, CosTFXLO. The majority of those .Fapanese who liad been eva-
cuated.
Mr. Masaoka. The majority in his camp ; yes, I believe I did.
Mr. Stripling. You led him to believe that you represented them.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. Now, when he said that the plan had to be
submitted to him, that was not an order or anything else of the
sort.
Mr. Stripling. What about your plan here ?
Our biggest talking point is our membership — so please work out a plan for
getting members or souse scheme whereby all American citizens over 18 of Jap-
anese ancestry are antcmiatically members. I've got to get in my plans for the
Japanese American Citizens League to Myer right away, but I haven't heard
from any of the groups, and this includes Kido.
Mr. Masaoka. That was never carried out.
Mr. Stripling. Well, there was no indication it was carried out, but
it was a scheme of yours. How do you explain such a scheme on your
pai't?
]\Ir. Masaoka. It was just a statement. I had no way of doing it,
or anything of that sort.
Mr. Stripling. You were, apparently, representing yourself as an
agent, so to speak, for 20,000 people when, as a matter of fact you
were rejjresenting at the most 2,000.
]Vrr. Masaoka. I disagree with that.
Mr. Stripling. What do you mean when you say —
While Kido is thinking in long time terms when he suggests that the original mem-
bership might be exclusive, from the standpoint of my work
Mr. Masaoka. Well , what does he mean ?
Mr. Strippling. That you did not represent the original member-
ship,
Mr. Masaoka. No. Mr. Kido's ideas always have been that
J. A. C. L. shall be a very restricted group, possibly comparable
to a civic idea, military, or something else. He wanted a select
group. I was more interested in a representative group.
Mr. Matthews. What do you understand by the phrase "fanatical
Americanism"?
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9509
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that would depend upon the circumstances
of the case.
Mr. Matthews. Well, did you ever say that any individual was
dangerous because he was fanatical about Americanism, or do 3'ou
recall havino: said that?
.Mr. ^Iasaoka. I may have said it in connection with certain indi-
viduals. If you could give me the name, possibly I can explain what
I mean.
Mr, Matthews. T have liere a letter «hited January 14, 1943, ad-
dressed to Joe Kanazawa, signed "Mike," and ask you if that is your
signature?
Mr. INIasaoka. That is my signature.
Mr. ]\Iatthews. You recognize this letter, do you not ?
Mr. IMasaoka. Yes.
Mr. jNIatthews. On the second page of this letter the following
sentence appears :
Slocum is dangerous because he is fanatical about Americanism.
Now, what did you have in mind in that particular instance about
being fanatic about Americanism?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I believe that there were certain people in this
country, and not necessarily any certain individual but many indi-
viduals, wlio have used the war and Americanism for their own or
other selfisli interests. I personally believe that we cannot fight
for Americanism and the "four freedoms" abroad and destroy it here
at home. I believe that certain peoples use un-American tactics to
arrive at what the}- believe to be un-American ends.
Mr. Matthews. That is what you mean by being fanatical about
Americanism ?
Mr. INIasaoka. Possibly.
Mr. CosTELLO. You meant, when you used the word "dangerous"
there, that he was dangerous ?
Mr. Masaoka. You mean to explain what the word "dangerous" in
that particular sentence means?
Mr. CosTELLO. I want to know what you had in mind when you used
the expression "he is dangerous"; you said "Slocum is dangerous be-
cause he is fanatical about Americanism."
Mr. Masaoka. I think we should say that he was possibly dangerous
to the intentions of the organization. In other words. I have no brief
or, rather, let me put it this way: I think that there is no question
of the sincerity or the patriotic Americanism of the person in question,
but I do believe, and I say so sincerely, that some of the methods that
he uses do not smack of Americanism as such.
Mr. Matthews. Will you please specify what those methods are
which are un-American ?
Mr. Masaoka. He, for example, or the pei-son in question — I think
we all have the same party in mind.
Mr. Mundt. May I iufjuire, who is the person you have in mind?
Mr. Matthews. M?-. Slocum. It is in the record.
Mr. MuxDT. All right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Tokie Slocum.
Mr. Matthews. Tokie Slocum.
Mr. Masaoka. As I said before, I think that no one questions his
sincere Americanism. However, he oftentimes, too, legitimately or
9510 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
otherwise, becomes friendly, using his friendship, and so on, and then
"boom." The result has not always been fair.
Mv. Stripling. Fair to whom?
Mr. Masaoka. Just fair. I just use the term "fair."
Mr. Stripling. What do you mean, fair to your organization or
fair to you personally, or fair to the countr}' oi- the Government?
Mr. Masaoka. Let us put it both ways, fair to me and to the organ-
ization.
Mr. Matthews. Well, now, just a minute. Do you say that any
American citizen of Japanese ancestry who disagreed with the poli-
cies of the Japanese American Citizens League and opposed thoss
policies is guilty of un-American practice?
Mr. Masaoka. No. no.
Mr. Matthews. Well, you said his methods were un-American.
Mr. Masaoka. That is, to my thinking.
Mr. Matthews. Well, what methods, for example?
Mr. IMasaoka. Well. I think that is more of an expression which
we use than actual step-by-step movement.
Mr. Matthews. AVell. "un-Ameiican" would ordinarily apply to
something dangerous to this country, would it not?
Mj'. AL\sA0KA. Yes; ordinarily it would imply that.
Mr. Matthews. Well, is not that the sense in whicli you used the
expression ?
Mr, Masaoka. After all, when you write, you ai-e not too careful of
the language used, and so on.
Mr. Costello. xVctually, Mr. Masaoka, this expression as contained
in this particular letter indicates to my mind something entirely dif-
ferent. You state he is dangerous because he is fanatic about Amer-
icanism. Now. I get the inference from that that he is to be watched;
you better not deal with him. because lie is too American ; he is fanati-
cal about being an American, and because of that fact we have got to
watch him. The implication I would get from a statement of that
kind is that nuiybe your organization is not American, and you are
afraid of him because he is American. Now, that is the conclusion I
draw from the words you use.
Mr. Masaoka. Mr. Congressman, may I ask this question ?
Mr. Stripling. On that point, Mr. Chairman, further in this letter
Mr. ^fasaoka end.^ up by saying that Mr. Inagaki and Mr. Kanazawa
should —
work together to see that he does not ieopai'dize the future of the .Japanese in
this country by his sincere and misguided effoi'ts.
You use the language "the future of the Japanese." You do not
say "Japanese Americans" there.
Mr. Masaoka. No; generally we use that to mean Japanese.
Mr. Stripling. Your own letterhead has "Japanese American,"
which you use in your correspondence.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, generally the Japanese.
Mr. Stripling. Well, what do you mean by "his sincere and mis-
guided efforts"?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I have always been under the impression, as
have many others, that Mr. Slocum believes that the great majority
of the Japanese — and I understand that this is an erroneous impres-
i:X-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9511
sion now, that before the Chaiuller coimnittee, as well as elsewhere,
he said that the <2:reat majoiity of the Japanese were loyal. Well, it
w:is my inii)ression that he made the other statement previously, and
tliereft)re 1 used the term "niis<riiided."
Mr. Kbekiiahteh. Mr. Costello made a statement here as to his
opinion what the witness meant by the term "fanatical about Ameri-
canism.'' Now, I think it would be proper for the witness to answer
that statement.
Mr. Masaoka. I don't believe that the Japanese American Citizens
Leairue. as far as I know, is subversive or un-American. I believe
we have oone t«i great lenoth to prove our Americanism; as far as the
natit)nal organization is concerned, I believe there has never been any
evidence, at least since I took active part in its administration, which
would indicate a tie with Japan or desire on our part to see Japan
win.
Mi-. Costello. You can readily see that this particular expression
which you have used can be interpreted to be just the opposite.
Mr. Masaoka. Well. I can see that anything can be interpreted the
way desired.
Mr. Costelui. I mean, just by reading it. The plain intent of the
words is that Slocum is dangerous because he is fanatical about
Americanism.
• Mr. Masaoka. As I say, Mr. Chairman, oftentimes when you write
letters, dictate them off hurriedly, you are not too careful of the selec-
tion of words. Now, if that impression is conveyed, I claim and I
say for the record that it is entirely erroneous. And. I dare say, as
I have said before, as far as I jiersonally am concerned, Mr. Slocum is
sincere in his Americanism. I think he has proved it in his records,
and I think those of us who are now in the armed forces of the United
States Avould like to equal his brilliant record in the war. That is
wh}^ a lot of us volunteered in this combat team. We see it as the
one chance to prove to all Americans that we are ready to die on the
battlefield of war for our country. Tliat is wdiy I volunteered. That
is why most of us volunteered. That is why w^e are going through
one of the most rigid training — pardon me. That becomes the War
Department again.
15ut. nevertheless, we are asking this: The Chinese used to ask for
a Cliinanian'.s chance against Japan. Today in this country, most
of the factors are levie I against us, and so today, if I may use that
paraphrased expression, we Americans of Japanese ancestry are ask-
ing for that same Cliinanum's chance to prove our loyalty and the
fact that wcAvant to stay here in this country after the war.
Mr. EHEniL\K'ip:i;. Xow, Mr. Masaoka, is it your idea that there are
people among all the different Americans. Americans of foreign
ancestry, who are sincere and honest in their pati'ioti<; loyalty to these
United States, but that soujctimes they carry their pure Americanism
so far that they use it for the very purpose of suppressing liberal
ideas and suppressing freedom of thought, and by their intense loy-
alty, in othei- words, they themselves violate the precept of the Con-
stitution of the United States?
IVIr, Masaoka. I think so.
Mr. Eberhakter. Is that what j'ou meant by that expression?
^Ir, Masaoka, I believe that is so.
9512 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Ebeehartkk. Of course, there is a preat difference of opinion
in the United States and even in the Conji'ress as to ho^v far we slionld
iio in our Americanism ?
iHIr. Masaoka. I realize that.
Mr. Eberhakter. That is alh
^Ir. Maithews, ]\rr. Masaoka. I show you a document dated Sep-
tember 19, 1942, a carbon copv of sonie la passes, addressed to national
headquarters staff, Saburo Kido. George Inagaki, with tlie typed
signature of "Mike.'' and ask you ])lease to identify that.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. IMatthews. As a <ommunication which you sent to the national
lu^adquarters of the Japanese American Citizens Leairue ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Will you please indicate the j^crsons in oovernmont
with whom you dealt when you were national secretary of the Japa-
nese American Citizens League, and I mean by that, with whom
you dealt concerning the ])roblems of the (^enters and American citi-
zens of Japanese ancestrv and other items of interest in A^our oi^aniza-
tion?
Mr. Masaoka. First of all. I would like to explain wliy we dealt
with tliese gioups and why we dealt with other groups. As an Amer-
ican citizen in any democratic country, we believe that it is the j-ight
and the privilege of any citizen who represents any group, or even
representing himself, if possible, to approach Government (officials,
inchiding Congressmen and others, to try to suggest their point of
view, to present their case, as it were.
That, to me, is the essence of Americanism, when a person of lowly
estate, regardless of his nationality, regardless of his race or creed,
can approach the lawmakers and the executive at any time and express
their point of view.
Now, we were in a tragic position. Because of the war we were
placed in an embarrassing spot. Our job, if possible, was to present
the case of the loyal Americans that were unsatisfactory to various
Government grou]^s. Now. specifically, of course, we contacted the
various officials of the W. R. A., Mr. Eisenhower of the O. W. I.,
and a number of Congressmen and the Justice Department.
Mr. Matthews. You said "Eisenhower." You mean he is now in
O.W.I.?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; he is no longer in O. W. I. T believe he is now
president of the Kansas State College.
Mr. Matthews. Well, when you had your contact with him, where
was he ? '
Mr. Masaoka. My original contacts were with him in San Francisco
when he was the regional director of the W. R. A. and later on, of
course, I kept up contacts in Washington.
Mr. CosTEixo. You say you contacted some of tlie Congressmen
also ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you care to state the names of the Congressmen
you contacted?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, Senator Thomas and Senator Murdock.
Mr. CoSTELLo. Did vou ever contact any of those from the Pacific
Coast States?
ITN-AMEKICAA PROPAGANDA ACmiTIES 9513
Mr. Masaoka. Congressman Tolan.
Ml-. C'osTrLLo. Well, that Avas in connection ^Yith the hearing, was
it not?
Mi-. ]M.\s.\oka. Yes; and I contacted members of his committee here
ill \\'ashiHiiton. that is. Dr. Lamb and others.
Mr. CosTKi.U). "i On did not make any eti'ort to contact any of the
members of the three Pacific Coast States regarding conditions in
relocation centers or in the handling of the Japanese problem, did
}-on i
Mr. Masaokv. Not as an individual. I tlvonght it would not be too
well received, shall I put it that way?
Now. many of these contacts were made indirectly too; in other
words, my j(jb was to try to get as many people as possible interested
in this problem. I tried to do the job to the best of my ability, because
1 thought ihat by showing a democracj' could work, even after the
tragic episode, after evacuation, to prove to all the people in Asia,
particularly, that America was sincere in their statement concerning
the "foui- freedoms" for everybod3\
Mr. Matthews. In line with this discussion, this subject, I show
you a copy of the minutes of the special conference of the national
staff which bears the signature of Utako Takasu. Can you identify
those minutes?
Mr. Masaoka. I think so.
Mr. Matthews. The ansAver is "Yes."
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. The minutes read in part as follows :
Infoniia! inet'tius; was s'^arted at 8 p. in. National Spcretjiry Mike Masaoka
started the meeting b.v giving a brief report of his thoughts and ideas regarding
<mv work in tlie East. Mike INtasaoka is convinced that v.e nmst maintain some-
body in Wa.sbiiigton all tiie time. It was for tiie reason that the hearts of all
llie .TapaiH'se peo])le lie in onr bands. He has met Chief Justice Stone, Mrs.
Roosevelt. Attfiniey (Jeneral Biddle. Secretary Stimson, Secretary Knox, and
Sumner Welles ; also Senator Thomas and Senator Murdock.
Did you meet all those persons?
Mr. Masaoka. I may have.
M)-. Costfllo. You mean that ansAver to stand the way you have
given it ; that you put that in the letter that you met them and that
you state to the committee that you may or may not have.
^fr. Mas.\()k.\. Yes: I do.
!Mr. (\)sn:LLO. You do not recall whether you actually met each of
the ]jei-.sons named?
]\rr. M.\s.\oK.\. That is right, af that particular time.
^U-. Co^TKfj.o. Do you know how many of them you did actually
meet ?
INfr. Ar.\.s.\<nvA. Xo: I do not.
]\[r. AfT'xnr. How long ago was this letter written. Doctor?
yh\ Maithkws. August IT. last yeai-.
Mr. Mrxnr. Xow. will you recall foi- the record. Mr. Masaoka. how
manv of these ])ersons you can now recall?
Ml". ]\r\s\(tK.\. Xow. let me ]Mtt it this way. ^Nlany of these ])eople
we may lia^'e met indii-ect : in othei- words, we had our peo])le contact
them co?icei-i)in<v their amcws.
• Ml-. .A'lM)-!-. And heard them?
9514 UN-AaiERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Masaoka. Many of these people we may have met indirect;
other people may have contacted them for their views regardin*^- some-
body.
Mr. MuNDT. Did yon contact any of them personally ?
Mr. Masaoka. Oh, yes. May I see that list a^ain t
Mr. Matthews. Yes. Take Chief Justice Stone, for example.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes ; 1 contacted him.
Mr. Matthews. Mi-s. Roosevelt.
Mr. Masaoka. I met her.
Mr. Matthews. xVttorney General Biddle?
Mr. Masaoka. I met him indirectly.
Mr. Matthews. AYhat do you mean by "indirectly"?
Mr. Masaoka. I think other people approached him on the subject.
Mr. JSIuNDT. Yon did not meet him personally?
Mr. INIasaoka. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Secretary Stimson?
j\Ir. Masaoka. No, sir. I got his views indirectly.
Mr. Matthews. Secretary Knox?
Mr. Masaoka. The same thing is true of Knox and Welles.
Mr. Matthews. You could have extended this list to include thou-
sands of people, could you not?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; in other words, being overenthusiastic.
Mr. Matthews. You got the views of thousands of people without
meeting them.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Now, in the next sentence you say. "they ha\e all
been very interested and helpful but wish to avoid any publicity."
Is that not a rather serious statement to make when you had not met
them in the first ])]ace, to quote them indirectly, as wanting to avoid
publicity, when there was no occasion for publicity?
Mr. Masaoka. The general problem was touchy at the time and it
still is.
Mr. Matthews. As a matter of fact, were you not trying to impress
your national organization?
Mr.'lMASAOKA. AH right.
Mr. Matthews. With having done things that von had not done?
Mr. Masaoka. All righ.t ; let us put it that way. I am willing to
accept that.
]Mr. INIattheavs. "Well now, did some of these persons indicate to you
that they wanted to avoid ])ublicity, and if so. what publicity?
Mr. Masaoka. In this particular pvoblem, when the Japanese Amer-
icans and other groups were put on the spot, it was felt that they coidd
more effectively work if they were not too closely associated with per-
sons of Japanese ancestry. I belie\e tliat was the thought behiml im-
favorable pu])licity.
Mr. Matihews. You mean some of them told you that?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. At that time was Mj-s. Roosevelt trying to avoid pub-
licity? You do not have to answer that.
Mr. Matthews. I do not know whether I asked you if you met
Sumner Welles. Did vou?
y>v. ]Masaoka. No.
Ml'. Mattheavs. As a matter of fact, you only met two of the persons
on tliat list ; is that right?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9515
Mr. Mas.noka. That may bo riiiht.
JMr. Matjiikws. Chiel" fliistice Stone and Mis. Roosevelt.
Vv. M ASAOKA. I met also Senators Munlock and Thomas.
Mr. Mattiikws. Did \i)\i have frequent contacts with Mr. Dillon
M yer of the W. R. A. ^ "
j\Ir. Masaoka. Yes, A\'e were trying to cooperate with him to the
best of our ability, because we felt that they were the most logical
agency to wliich we could appeal.
Mr. Mattiikws. Did your so-called coojieration with the W. R. A.
extend to the lengths of your determining W. R. A. policies?
Mr. Masaoka. Oh, no. I think that that was just a phrase to im-
press, again, the national office.
Mr. Matthews. Did yt)U receive fiomMr. Myer highly confidential
directives which were issued b}' the AY. R. A.?
INIr. Masaoka. I think 1 may have sent them on to Salt Lake as
highly confidential, but I believe they were a matter of public record,
once they become a directive of a public agency.
Mr. Matthp:ws. Did you state that they were not documents for
public use?
Mr. ]\Ias.*oka. I don't recall making a statement one way or the
other regarding that, but 1 do know, for example, that their employ-
ment policy October 1 of last year, originally issued as a directive,
became a part of the public register — is that what they call it, or Con-
gressional Register?
INIr. CosTELLo. Federal Register.
JMr. Matthews. Now, in the document that you have identified as
your report to the national headquarters dated September 19, 1942, you
wrote in part as follows :
A word about the directives. We have got a lot more but they have to deal
with the admiiustratioii itself, and so we are not enclosin'^- copies of them. All
are most confidential and we were lucky to get them ourselves. So please be
careful of their use.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, you know how it is if you want a secret kept —
I mean, not kept — and wanted to prove your effectiveness, you always
say ''confidential.''
Mr. Matthews. Did you mean by this report, when you touched on
that subject, that you wanted your national office to broadcast the
information?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, they could get them anyway; in other words,
most of tho.se were carried in news stories and releases. We received
them much later than the other people received them. We received
them in packets afterward, after they were generally distributed to the
people that the W. R. A. distributed them to.
j\ir. CosTF LLo. Is it not a fact that yCu received these directives ahead
of schedule?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. CoS'iELU). You got the.^e directives before they were released
from the camps?
Mr. Masaoka. We never received them before they v.ere released
from the camps.
Mr. CosTELi.o. AYhat did you mean by the statement in there that
you were luck> to <ret them? That they were very confidential?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, we were lucky to get them.
9516 UlS-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Well, if they were going to be released to the centers
they were not pnblic property.
Mr. Masaoka. They were released to center pi-oject directors later.
I nnderstand they were released throngh pnblic agencies and private
agencies interested in the same problem, bnt so far as we were con-
cerned, we were vei-y lucky to get them.
Mr. JSteipling. The fact that they were sent to the project directors
would not mean that they were released ; tliat they were public docu-
ments.
Mr. Masaoka. Most of these had been carried later (jii.
Mr. Steipling. Later on, of course, but not at the time.
Mr. ]VL\saoka. Well, we received them late, too. Never did we re-
ceive a document of this nature before it was released to the project
directors.
]\Ir. Matthews. Do I understand, when you used the word "confi-
dential" here that you meant to inspire your associates to release them
and broadcast them?
Mr. Masaoka. Not necessarily. You see, I acted in two capacities
when I turned in these reports, one as the national secretary, at which
time, of course, I would try to exj>ress to the national headquarters the
good Avork that I was doing: and, secondly, as a reporter for the Pa-
cific Citizen, which is a weekly bulletin issued by our organization.
Now, by steadying these things, the Pacific Citizen itself would be
pre])ared for the different trends which might arise.
INIr. Matthews. Did Mr. Kido and Mr. Inagaki understand your
technique in reporting to them?
Mr. Masaoka. Mr. Kido on many public occasions has accused me
of being quite an exaggerationist ; in fact, he often said that if he
could shoot the bull like I could, why he would be a nuich more suc-
cessful attorney.
Mr. Eberharter. You consider yourself a pretty good lobbyist,
Mr. Masaoka ?
]Mr. Masaoka. No, sir; I haAe failed in many ways.
Mr. Eberharter. Did you follow tlie practice generally followed
by lobbyists in Washington ?
Mr. Masaoka. I am not a lobbyist. I never had enough money to
be. I never studied their technique or anything else. I was then a
young fellow trying to present the case of the Japanese Americans.
I have never been taken under the wings of any of the so-called high-
priced lobbyists or anything else of the sort.
Mr. Costello. Not all of the lobbyists are high-priced.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I received $75 a month for my Avork to begin
with, gentlemen.
Mr. IVIatthews. Do you think that you were successful in im-
pressing Mr. Myer with what you call "shooting tlie bidl'" ?
Mr. IVIasaoka. I believe Mi'. Myer recognized that I had a tend-
ency toward that.
Mr. Matthews. In other words, you think you Avere not suc-
cessful.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, not successful in what ?
INIr. CosTEELo. Well, be asked you whether you were successful in
imi)ressing Mr. Myer.
Air. Masaoka. We discussed many matters of policy Avitli him and
presented our vieAvs. In some cases he agreed; in some cases he dis-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9517
agreed. In nuniy cases we expressed a viewpoint, bnt his department
already dealt with them beforehand.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do yon think he allowed for yonr exaggerations
and therefore dismissed the snggestions accordingly?
Mr. M AsAOKA. Possibly, and vei-y probably.
Mr. CosTKLLO. Yon do not know whether he did or )iot.
Mr. Masa.oka. Most of tlie policies which he fornndated he fornm-
lated with the aid of his department alone.
Mr. (\)sTKi.Lo. lint 3'on do not know whetiier he took yonr state-
ment to him at its full face vahie. or whether he possibly dismissed
it as being exaggeration.
Mr. Masaoka. That is right.
Mr. CoSTELix). You do not know ?
Mr. ^NIasaoka. No. 1 would like to state for the record a moment,
the W. E. A. has a difficult job as it is, as all of you can well appre-
ciate, and that the}^ are doing their job very well, considering the
difficulties under which they labor.
Mr. CosTELLo. Of course, we concede it is quite difficult to transplant
a hundred thousand people — men. women, and children, whole fam-
ilies— and relocate them in new surroundings and new locations. But,
do you feci that the operation and management of the centers and
the handling of discipline, and questions of that kind are such as to
be beneficial to the Japanese people located there.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, on many minor items, possibly no, but generally
speaking, I think the supervision and the govermnent of the camps
has been remarkable. Occasionally, of course, we get very mad about
minor incidents and raise all kinds of hell, to use that expression, but
over long-time terms, and looking it over broadly and as sanely as
possible. I thin.k you can't escape the conclusion that they have done
a rennu'kable job.
Ml-. Stripling. According to your knowledge of the W. R. A. and
its policies, what is your opinion of the present plan of releasing 1,000
evacuees a week foi- resettlement i
Mr. Masaoka. I think that is a good program.
Mr. Stripling. Do you think that they should be released without
any check having been made on them ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think a ])roper check should be made.
Mr. CosTEixo. Do you know whether a check is being made or not?'
Mr. Stripling. What do you consider to be a proper check ?
]Mr. Masaoka. Your question was what?
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether any check is being made or not?
Mr. Masaoka. At the present time?
Mr. CosTELLO. Yes ; of those who are being released.
Mr. AfASAOKA. I do not; because I have not been in contact with
them. I ])resume that they aie being checked either by the projects
or throuiih checks Avitli the F. B. I. files, or some other check.
Mr. MuNDT. I wish he would answer the question you asked.
Mr. Masaoka. Will you repeat that question. Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. What do you consider to be a proper check?
Mr. ]Masaoka. I tiiink the people in that kind of work Avould be in ai
better position to answer that than I.
Mr. Stripling. You mean the Wai' I\elocation Authority?
Mr. Masaoka. Possiblv.
fiL'G26 — 43— vol. l."> 44
'9518 UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stripling. On that point, do you consider Mr. M^'^er to be a
person properly qualified to determine Avlietlier or not a Japanese
or Japanese-American would be loyal ?
Mr. Masaoka. He has the facilities and agencies to determine it.
Mr, Stripling. What agency do you have in mind?
Mr. Masaoka. Possibly the federal Buieau of Investigation,
W. R. A.'s own investigative staff. Military Intelligence.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know what type of investigation F. B. I.
makes of an evacuee when he is about to be resettled?
Mr. Masaoka. No. I understood, if I recall correctly, that they
were checked against the files of the F. B. I., is that correct; something
of that sort ?
Mr. MuNDT. Would you consider that an adequate check, if that is
true that they check the Japanese against tlie files of the F. B. I.?
Would you consider that complete and adequate?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. In other words, I believe that the F. B. I.
is probably as competent and as qualified as any agency in the woild
to determine the loyalty, the subversive activities, or otherwise of any
individual.
Mr. MuNDT, Do you feel that the F. B. I, has presently in its files
ii list of all the disloyal Japanese in America ?
Mr. JNIasaoka. I believe if they have not, they are in a position to
obtain it.
Mr. Stripling. How many names have you submitted to the F. B. I.
of disloyal Japanese?
]Mr. ]\Iasaoka. That is putting me on the spot, but I can refer you
to the Salt Lake City office on that.
Mr. Stripling. As a matter of fact, were you not called in by the
San Francisco office of the F. B. I. and asked why you had not given
tiiem more names?
Mr. Masaoka. I was by the San Francisco office ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. AVell that does not tie in wnth what you said earlier
in your testimony that you had assisted the Government.
Mr. IMasaoka. All right. You can check that with the Naval Tn-
lelligence in San Francisco.
Mr. Stripling. But you did not give any names to the F. B. I.
jmd they called you in.
Mr. Masaoka. We were working more with the Naval Intelligence
than the F. B. I. at that time.
Mr. Stripling. Well, for the general welfare now of tlie Japanese,
you do not think it would be a good policy for the War Kelocation
Anthority to release Japanese-Americans without some form of check
on them, do you?
Mr. Masaoka. It is my firm conviction that the average Japanese-
American is loyal.
Mv. Stripling. Would you be willing for him to be released wi'th-
«)ut a check?
Mr. INIasaoka. Unless lie had something against his record. There
should be some check. Yes ; there should be some check.
Mr. Stripling. Would yoil protest if you knew that they were be-
ing released, and in doing so it would jeopardize the status of the
loyal Japanese^
Mr. Masaoka. I think that would depend pretty nnich on the
larger program of the W. "R. A.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9519
Mr. Stku'lino. Well, it was pointed out earlier in the testimony
that at Poston CUB Japanese-Americans signed questionnaire No. 27
of the Army, in which they stated that they were not loyal to this
(Jovernment.
Mr. Masaoka. Those people certainly should not be permitted to
get out; neither should those who ask for expatriation.
Mr. Stripling. For that very reason you feel that a check should be
made ?
Mr. Masaoka. Some sort of check ; yes.
Mr. Kp.ki:hakii;k. Is that your personal opinion or the policy of the
J. A. C. L.?
Mr. Masaoka. That is my personal opinion.
Mr. Ebei!Harter. Then the J. A. C. L. has a definite policy in respect
to the question just asked by Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Masaoka. The policy of the J. A. C. L. in that regard has
always been that upon proper check the future welfare or the welfare
of those loyal Americans already out, would not be jeopardized. Every
care and precaution should be taken — reasonable care and precaution —
should be taken to see that only those who are qualified, not only for
loyalty but also by talent and skill, should be permitted to be released.
Mr. Eberharter. And that has been the policy of the J. A. C. L. ?
Mr. Masaoka. Oh, yes. We have always advocated a system of
release based upon their ability to sustain themselves or otherwise.
Mr. Eberharter. Did you make those representations to anybody
on the W. R. A. staif?
Mr. Masaoka. I think they were.
Mr. Eberharter. As the position of the J. A. C. L. ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think they were made in an original statement to
Mr. Miltnn v^. Eisenhower at the very beginnino- of the W. H. A.
Mr. Matthews. I would like to ask one question. You understand,
do you not, Mv. Masaoka, what you call a check of an individual
against the F. B. I. files is in no sense an investigation of that pur-
licular individual? Do you not understand that? At best it would
be merely a negative finding.
Mr. Masaoka. AVell, that is the way the ordinary American citizen
is also permitted to roam about, is it not? Americans of Japanese
ancestry are entitled to the same privilege.
Mr. Matthews. Let us take the 630 at Poston.
M?'. ^M.'iSACiKA. But you already have those, because you have the
600 definite names.
Mr. Matthews. Well, I want to ask you a question about the 680.
They were individuals who were willing to declare themselves in writ-
ing as being disloyal to this country.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Do you assume that all of the others who declared
loyalty did so in uood faith?
Mr. Masaoka. I would assume that the maiority did.
Mr. Matthews. Would you not, on the contrary, assume that some
of the most disloval individuals would declare their loyalty in order
to be in a position to carry out their disloyalty?
Mr. Masaoka. I would go one sten further. Mr. ^fa^^thew-i. mimI sov
ihat if such dangerous j)ersoris were there the F. B. I. in all probabilitv.
9520 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
or they, at least, should have, because of the previous knowledge of
their back<>iouii(i. aud so on, already had a check on those individuals.
Mr. Stripling. On that poiiit. Mr. Chairman, this report dated
April 26, 19^:3. frcnn Mr. Masaoka to the national headquarters of the
J. A. 0. L. — and ycni recognize this as a copy of one of the official
j-eports ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stbipling (continuing) . On page 2 of that report it states :
I liart a long chat with Bob Frase about the resettlement program.
What is his title in ^Y. R. A. ?
Mr. Masaoka. He is assistant to the Chief of the Employment Divis-
ion, I think.
Mr. Striplixg. Tlie report continues :
This department of the Why Relocation Authority ]\n>^ grown f!(tm the smallest
into the largest, at least in the number of woi'kers. Frase tells ine that as far as
the outside organization is concerned, it is ready to function but that some of
the center organizations are still in a very backward state. Holland remains as
the chief employment nfficer with Frase as his chief assistant. A fellow by th&
name of Sabin was lu-tniglit in to handle the agricultural end of resettlement and
Dave McEntire is visiting the centers to improve upon their organization. The
latter two are also assistant chiefs. This is strictly olf the record but the project
directors alone now have the power to issue Indefinite furPiughs. They do not
need a Federal Bureau of Investigation check. It seems that the prinje req-
uisite in deterjuiniiig whether cue recvMves a furlough or not is his answers to
questions 27 aud 28. This lumsual pi'ocedure is only a temporary one which will
permit the Wai- Relocation Authority h^-ve to catch up with the several thousand
clearance requests which they now have in the files. Once they catcli up, they
will again resort to the former procedure of a Federal Bureau of Investigation
clearance, but the project director will have the power to issue the furlough in
cases of cleared individuals without referring them back to Washington, as
previously.
If fellows like Sim Togasaki and George Ohashi take un the matter of their
furlouglis directly with their project director, they should be able to obtain them
without trouble. It is impossible to check their status hei-e because the filing
system has not yet been set up whereby easy check can be made on the thousands
of applications now pending.
Is that information, as you reported it, substantially true ?
]\Ir. Masaoka. I believe so.
Mr. S^RT^LIxo. Did you make any protest to the War Kelocation
Authority that they had waived tlie F. B. I. checked iind in so doing
Avere jeopardizing the status of all Japanese Americans?
Mr, Masaoka. To my knowledge I did not.
Mr. STRipmxo. In otlier words, you were pot concerned as to how
lenient the W. II. A. might become in their restrictions?
Mv. Masaoka. Well, they had the answers. There are certain people
who already liad applied. The peo]»le who desired to be dangerous, in
most cases. I presume, vrould lun'e apjdied to get out so that they could
have done snl)otage, if possible. Now. these people had already been
lefused. at least held up, so therefore I believe it was reason!\ble to as-
sume that the ])eople who answered "Yes'" or "Xo'" did so honestly and
w^ere not the dangefous nature.
Mr. CosTELLO. You feel that the disloyal ones are only dangerous in
that they might couunit sabotage?
Ml-. Masaoka. No. I believe the most dangerous thing which they
can do now in relocation centers is to poison the minds of the loyal
grou]JS.
UX-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVIIIES 9521
Mr. CosTELLO. You think they ;irt' more daiiijerous, so far as the
i-afety and welfare of the couiilry is concerned, if they carry on es-
pionaire work, which (h)es not smack of sabotage, and forward that
information to the enemy ^
Mr. Masaoka. Lot me see if I follow you correctly. The question
asked is about espionage, where they might get information to for-
ward to the ttii^mv. That may be true if they could obtain informa-
tion, whicli I can^t see how they can do in relocation centers.
Mr. CosTELLo. I am not talking about those in the centers; I mean
after they were released from the centers.
'Sir: ]M'asa()ka. I see. Whether tliat would be the most dangerous
tiling they could do or not? I imagine it would be.
Mr. CosTELLO. I mean, the big thing that has always been thrown
up all along is that there has been no sabotage of any kind.
IMr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. They have not found any instances: at least, they
allege there were none in Hawaii and other Pacific are;'S. The con-
trary situation, of course, existed in the Philippines. To my mind,
the possibility of espionage is just as dangerous to the welfare of the
country in tlie conduct of the war as is sabotage ; perhaps even more
so. I believe if any disloyal person were allowed to roam freely
throughout the country, where he could carry on the work of espio-
nage, he perhaps could do more damage than if lie would blow up a
factory or something of that kind.
Mr. Masaoka. May I state there have been no cases or accusation
of espionage against persons released. It seems to me persons of
Japanese ancestr}', by their very distinguishable physical character-
istics, are more easily singled out of any group, more easily watched,
more easily investigated than any other individual, and if the Japa-
nese Government is as smart as we contend they are. it would seem to
me that they would not use persons of Japanese ancestry to do their
espionage and sabotage; the chances are too great.
^Ir. CosTELLO. They might use some of their own nationality to
obtain the information and pass it on to other persons, and under
certain conditions, where the person's nationality might be a deter-
rent, use other means. As a matter of fact, to make indiscriminate
releases, it seems to me, of all Japanese persons, to allow them in any
type of woT'k or industry in any jilace they might desire, makes it
])ossible for them to have access to information.
For example, we had the situation, as you recall it, in Tos Angeles,
■where persons of Japanese ancestry obtained positions with the luet-
ropolitan water district there, which gave them information which
the Japanese Govermnent had been endeavoring to obtain, which had
been denied to the representatives of the Ja])anese Government. And,
once the Ja})anese nationals, or persons of Japanese ancestry, ob-
tained their positions with the metropolitan water district, the Govern-
ment of Japan undoubtedly got the information; at least, they ceased
requesting the information from that time on.
Mr. Masaoka. Could not that be mere coincidence?
Mr. CosTELT.o. It might be mere coincidence, but the requests were
made over a period of several years, and once the persons of Japanese
ancestry obtained tlieir positions with the ^Metropolitan Water Dis-
9522 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
trict the requests ceased and were never requested at any time subse-
quently.
Under the present proG^ranl, with persons of Japanese ancestry
being released, they are also being placed in various positions around
the country where, undoubtedly, they are going to obtain informa-
tion whifh may be of value to the enemy.
Mr. Masaoka. I would like to give one or two ideas of my own on
the subject. As far as the Los Angeles water situation is concerned,
I don't believe I am concerned enough with the process to dispute
one way or another, but I would like to say simply that we have
regular investigative channels to look into that situation.
As far as the W. R. A. resettlement program is concerned, the great
majority, the bulk of them, have been placed in unskilled labor jobs.
Very few, if any at all, in relocation centers have been placed in
highly skilled defense work; very few.
Mr. CoSTELLo. It is not a case of having to be in a position where
highh' skilled ability is required; in other words, to obtain informa-
tion you can get it througli conversation, through hearsay, through
various contacts, so it is not necessary that you have to be in a port
of embarkation, that is, the harbor of New York, for instance, to
find out what troops are going out. You might get that information
here in Washington by being employed as a governor- or as a waitei',
by overhearing conversjitions of some who happen to know about
what troops are going out.
Mr. Masaoka. AVouldn't that also apply to other persons?
]Mr. CosTELLo. Very definitely. It applies to everybody. But the
point we are trying to raise here is that a proper check-up undoubt-
edly is not being made of the Japanese who are being released, and
the things that have just been read there indicate tliat an F. B. I.
check-up was not to be made.
Mr. Masaoka. Temporarily.
Mr. CosTELLo. And apparently that meets with your approval, from
the statements made here. Actually, the F. B. I. check-up was not
an investigation of the Japanese who were about to be released, but
was merely a check against their files as to wliether tliey had any
record or not.
Mr. Masaoka. It was my understanding that the F. B. I. had a
complete dossier of almost everybody of flapanese ancestry in this
country.
Mr. CosTELLO. I thought perhaps you could give us some informa-
tion on that.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Masaoka, I thought you said a little while ago
that you were rather well satisfied with the administration of the
project centers; with the Japanese program by W. R. A.; in fact, I
thought you said, considering the numerous difficulties which had
arisen and which we all recognize, it is doing a remai'kably good job;
is that correct?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Which would indicate that you have no particular
criticism to make of their present policies; is that right?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I have a number. I would like to state them,
if I may.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like to have vou state them.
UK-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9523
Mr. Masaoka. One, I believe, tliey iu-e not <^ettin^ ont enough
Americans of Japanese ancestry.
Mr. CosTELLC). Keleased, yt)u mean?
Mr. Masaoiv.:V. Released, yes, upon proper check, and I think they
ought to step it up; they ought to get them out as fast as possible so
that they will not be contaminated, as it were, with this artificial, un-
American [)ris(in-like concentration camp life. It is not good for
Americans of Japanese ancestry.
Mr. CosTELLO. By "contaminated'' what do you mean there? Just
their presence?
Mr. Masaoka. The sheer fact of regimentation is bad. It is un-
American, where you have to stand in line and get your food; where
you have no privacy in your home, as you gentlemen well know from
visits to relocation centers.
Mr. CosTixLo. You are not referring to any disloyal activities going
on in the centers then ?
Mr. ]\Iasaoka. There is some of that, too. And, they must be taken
away from that. There are certain Issei. first generation Niseis, and
other things of that nature, pro-Japanese influences, from which young
Americans who are going to live here after the war should be protected
against as far as possible.
Mr. Stripling. Do jou think they will leave, Mr. Masaoka; will
they leave the center?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, that is my fight against the W. R. A. I believe
that they should furnish more money for the people to leave.
Mr. Mdndt. Let us have him list his criticisms first and then we
can question him further.
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that they should be provided with suf-
ficient transportation and other finances to move them to the place
where they wish to resettle. At the present time, resettlement is a
rich man's resettlement program, because the poor people have spent
practically all that they have saved; used it up waiting for the evacua-
tion and in the relocation centers.
It is very nuich like Army life. They furnish you with a lot of
things, but you still have to buy a lot of other knick-knacks, so many of
the people who ought to go out are sorely pressed for finances. Al-
though the AY. R. A. does provide for finances of a sort today, I don't
believe that they are ade(iuate or sufficient.
I believe that the W. R. A. ought to make a more firm and aggressive
step in presenting the case of the loyal Jiipanese Americans to the
average American. I don't think that the average American has the
true pictui-e of the lojalty and the desires and aspirations of Amer-
icans of Japanese' ancestry. I think that is very important; that is,,
the idea of education and ex])laining wdiat our desires in that are.
Then, of course, center life itself can be improved.
Mr. Mfndt. In what way?
Mr. jVIasaoka. I would like to see better educational systems within
the schools. I mean, within tl\e various centers. I think that is very
important for the future.
I think greater intercourse ought to be made with the outside
groups and the outside communities, wherever possible.
My ])resent opinion is that when persons of Japanese ancestiT reach
high-school age, if at all possible, they ought to be persnitted to go*
9524 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
outside to continue their high-school education so that they will have
a com])lete assimilation with the American people.
Well, on the Pacific coast persons of Japanese ancestry were accused
of being clannish; yet the very program of W. R. A. has tended to
make them even more clannish. And it is no joke when a young per-
son of Japanese ancestry asks his mother, "Mother, wlien am I going
to get out of Japan and back into America^" because a lot of persons
of Japanese ancestry who were evacuated had very little association
with Japanese people, and suddenly they were thrown among only
Japanese or Japanese influences.
I am particularly worried about the social controls which are no
longer existing in the relocation centers.
I am particularly worried about the break-downs and the thinking
of the persons of Japanese ancestry. Tliey are not living a normal
American life, and every effort ought to be made to restore these
people to that community, to that nornuil American life, and so par-
ticular stress ought to be laid upon the resettlement of family groups,
as much as possible, and not concentrated, as it is at present, on the
voimg men and young women who can go out and forage for them-
selves, because too many of them are stdl too young to go out and
do it alone.
Mr. Matthews. Do you mean by that statement to apply it to the
Issei, the Nisei, and the Kibei alike?
Mr. Masaoka. If a check shows that they are loyal, that they de-
sire to remain here in America, I think certainly it should apply to
:all groups.
Mr. C'osTELLO. Have you finished your list ?
Mr. INIasaoka. Generally; in other words, gentlemen, I have not
given this problem too much thought of recent date.
Mr. MuNDT. I v.ould like to ask you this question. You have listed
four or five recommendations. You have not indicated any criticism
of the "War Relocation Authority policy, however, which fails to
segregate within the camps between the various Japanese, from the
standpoint of loyalty and disloyalty. Apparently, you do not feel
that that is a serious deficiency in the present W. R. A. policy.
Mr. Masaoka. I know that the W. R. A. is cognizant of that prob-
lem from their studying it. I have confidence that they will work
out a satisfactory program.
Mr. MuNDT. What would you C(msider a satisfactory program?
Mr. Masaoka. I would have to answer that in generalities, natu-
rally.
Mr. Mundt. Let me ask you a specific question, then. Do you be-
lieve that segregation is part of a satisfactory program ?
jMr. Masaoka. Segregation of some sort, yes, that would give jus-
tice and fairness, and po.ssibly have a right of appeal in case of
mistake or would take care of family units and others, I think would
be possible.
]\Ir. AfrxnT. Do you feel that the 630 members at Poston, who have
indicated that they are not loyal to America, should be immediately
segregated from the rest of the Japanese in the camp ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think some consideration should be given as to
why the answer was given.
Mr. MuNDT. You think we should coax them into answering in
"the affirmative?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ArTr\'ITlE'S 9525'
Mr. Masaoka. No; but I believe that undue influences may liaye
been exerted or that they niisimderstood the ])roorani. Tliere a<i;ain
we are iroinof into the War Department preroo;atives and privileges.
Mr. MuNDT. Undue infhiences by Vvhom?
Mr. Masvoka. Bv the pro-Japanese group; intimidation and the-
like.
Mr. Mt'XF)t. In the centers?
Mr. M\SA()i\A. In the centers.
Mr. MuxnT. Would it not follow therefrom that you should segi-e-
gate out of these centers into centers of their own all of these pro-
Japanese?
Air. Mas AOK \. We believe and we have always recommended a pro-
gram of segregation, if a satisfactory program can be worked out.
Mr. Mi'xdt. Have you recommended that to Mr. Myer?
Mr. Masaoka. AVe have recommended progi-ams of segi-egation
from time to time ; yes, sir.
INIr. Mundt. To Mr. Myer?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. What has been his attitude?
Ml'. Masaoka. He has constantly told us that he is working on the-
subject and working on the program.
Mr. MuNirr. Working in the direction of your recommendations or
away from them?
Mr. Masaoka. That would be rather hard to say. I don't know what
his exact program is at the present time.
Mr. Mundt. Have j^ou ever had any indication from him as to-
what his program is?
Ml-. Masaoka. I believe I have. I think it is listed in the records.
1 don't know the exact details.
Mr. Mundt. In general, what is your conception of his program-
from the standpoint of segregation?
Mr. Masaoka. In general, I believe — now, this is, again, my own
thinking as to what he said, according to my own memory. Fiist,.
those persons who request for, of course, repatriation, should definitely
be segregated. Secondly, those who answered "Yes" in these questions
should be given serious thought ; third, if the administrative details
can be woi-ked out. I think segregation based possibly on family units
and other units could be Avorked out. I think those are his general
ideas.
Mr. AIuNDT. Did you have any conferences with Mr. Myer in the
last two or thiee months in Avhich he has indicated this policy to you,
or was that prior to that time?
Mr. Masaoka. I think it Avas quite recently that he indicated that
his group Avas seriously working out a program. HoAvevei', Mr. Myer
would be in a better position to tell you than I.
Mr. AIuNDT, On April 2(5, 1943, just a very short time ago, you ad-
dressed a letter to the national J. A. C. L, headquarters staff, in Avhich
you said specifically : "It is the desire of the W. R. A. to avoid segre-
gation, if possible." That does not jibe very well with AA'hat you have
said now,
Mr. Masaoka. That is, not segregation based upon arbitrary, arti-
ficial classifications. In other words, for a long time, if you recall,,
when Mr, Eisenhower was director of the W. K, A., they had a Naval
'i)526 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIMTIES
Iiitellij^ence man who was working out an artificial system of segre-
gation based upon whether they were in Japan or not. Now, the
present achninistration is not committed and does not believe in a
policy of artificial discriminatif)n or segregation based solely upon
the fact that they might have been in Japan or something of that
sort. Now. that is what that has reference to.
Mr. MiKDT. I will read the last paragraph. Maybe that will bring
out your position.
It is the (lesiiv of tlie Wai- Itelocatioii Adniinistrafion to avoid segregation, if
possi))le. Tliey would resettle as many as they could and leave the rest in the
•centers without hranding any of them as dangerous or disloyal. Their idea
Is not shared hy congressmen and other Government agencies.
I repeat this sentence :
Tliey would resettle as many as they could and leave the rest in the centers
without branding any of them as dangerous or disloyal.
Now, I would not call that exactly an artificial system of segrega-
tion.
Mr. Masaoka. The whole idea, explanation, or point as I see it, I
believe by that they meant that they would like to resettle as many
people as possible on the outside after being checked properly, and
they would be satisfied with the check, as being a sort of segregation.
Now, the people who did not go out just stayed there; in other words,
they didn't want to go out of their way. to be branded, in a way
because of the hysteria of war, as being disloyal or anything of that
sort.
Mr. MuNDT. How are you going to avoid branding Japanese dis-
loyal when they refuse to answer?
Mr. Masaoka. You have that record. You have that record whether
it is proper or not, and I think personally it is not proper. The great
majority of the American people, because of the failure of govern-
mental agencies and others to explain satisfactorily to the American
people the true case of the Japanese Americans — the great majority
of people in America have the impression that we are interned because
we are disolyal, you see, so that same stigma would remain over.
Mr. CosTEi.T.o. Of course, the fnct is. at the time evacnntion was
hrought out, it was simply evacuation of all Japanese people without
any question of loyalty or not.
Mr. IVIasaoka. Yes.
Mr. C(>STEiLo. Prior to evacnition the F. B. I. did have a list of all
those whom they felt were disloyal to the country. They picked up
Japanese, Germans, Italians, or anybodv else, and those were definitely
interned. T do not know to what extent (lifferences mav exist, al-
though there Mere definitely the two distinctions made, and they were
mterned in camps; let me say, entirely separate and distinct.
Mr. INI 's voKA. B'tt the average American, by that T m^an the ]>eople
in the streets. ]iarticularly in the Midwest and in the East, have not
been ap]U'ised of that, and I think that is one of the great evils of the
program.
Mr. CosTELLo. Do you not believe nossibly the fact that most of
those interned nt the direction of the F. B. T. have subsequentlv been
released by civilian boards handling the internment camps, and that
the Japanese have been allowed to return to relocation centers, has
UN-AMEIUCAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9527
])ossibly had an t'tiVct in thai iviiai-d ami civatt'il the public impres-
sion
Mr. Masackv. It is my imi)iessi()ii that the same board passed on
Germans, Italians, and oilier peo[)le that passed on the Japanese, and
if that is true then there is no reason why the matter of race should
be held against any individual.
Ml-. ('( siF.Mo. r?ut theiv is confusion in the public mind about that.
Ml-. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. CosTEi.Lo. That interned Japanese have been released and al-
lowed to reenter relocation centers, which may be part of the cause
of tlie confusion you sj)eak of ^
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. MiMrr. As national -ecretary of the Japanese American Cit-
izens lica^ue. you were intei'ested. were you not. in the status of all
^ood Jai)anes(' in tliis country, whether they were American citizens
or wheriier they happened to be inunifrrants from Japan and could
obtain citizenship, provided they were loyal?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. MuNOT. And consecpiently you were interested in guarding the
re])utation of all Jai)anese as local, law-abiding citizens; is that right?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And in the fair attitude toward the Japanese?
Mr. ISIasaoka. Yes. sir.
jNIr. MuNDT. And consecjuently, when 3'ou discovered the surprising
fact that tem])orarily, because they were needed to fill labor demands,
the War K"1o(-ati<)n Autlmrity was releasing Japanese to ]n-ivate em-
ployment, without any F. B. I. check at all; were you not a little bit
despaired that that would redound to the credit of loyal Japanese,
if somebody did something wrong?
Mr. Masaoka. We checked that very carefully and we found there
wasn't a singU' case that the thing you were afraid, the thing you
mentioned, occurred.
Mr. MuNDT. Were you not afraid it might happen ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Mixo'i'. AMiy did you not then go to Mr. Myer and say : "Look
liere. we ar«' interested in the Ja])anese; this is a dangerous policy,
because if somo rascal does get out and does something wrong, it will
discredit all of us (" You say you ha<l that fear; nothing did happen,
but you say you had the fear. How did it happen that you did not
express that fear to Mr. Myer?
Mr. Masaoka. We may not have expressed it to Mr. Mver spe-
cifically, but I do recall that we expressed it to people in the W. R. A.
Mr. MuNDT. You di(l ex]n-ess it to people in the W. R. A. ?
Mr. Masaoka. To my knowledge ; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. What was their answer?
Mr. Masaoka. I think their answer was that they had checked at
that time for har^•est work, and so forth. I think some check was
•carried on. 4
^Ir. MiTNDT. Xot a very careful check; not a complete check with
the F. H. I., but more or less a check of the names?
^Ir. Masaoka. ]\Iy contenticm is that persons of Japanese ancestry,
fiimply because they were evacuated, are not criminals. I believe they
should be treated as decently as possible.
Mr. Ebkriiahter. We all agree wi:lithat.
9528 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTlVlTlEsS
Mr. MiiNDT. Yes. Yon refer to the loyal.
Mr. i\lASAOKO. Yes. - .
Mr, MuxDT. Yoii do not refei- to the disloyal ?
Mr. Masaoka. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. We all agree with that position. We are confronted
with that difficnltv as well as W. E. A. and you. as secretary of
J. A. C. L. to determine loyalty and disloyalty.
We feel, and Mr. Slocnm felt, and I am wondering whether you
do, that in cases like this, AAith war upon us, with tiiis type of hysteria
that you speak of certainly permeating the minds of some peo])le
of this country, that if mistakes are to be made, we better make them
in the direction of seeing to it that no disloyal get out rather than
have five or six or seven disloyal Japanese come back to private em-
ployment and discredit by some overt act the re|)utati(ni of all of the
Japs.
^Ir. Masaoka. Possibly, if I may be personal about it, you may be
overly concerned: in other words, the records do not seem to indicate
that which you are pointing out. Personally, I believe that the record
should be permitted to speak for itself.
Mr. MuNDT. Just release all Japanese then until some overt act has
been committed (
Mv. Masaoka. There is a check, as I understand it. the F. B. I.
check, and also the check of the i)roject director of W. R. A. ; a check
which tliey maintain. If I am not mistaken, W. C. C. A. also has a
check or some recoi'd of the individual Japanese American. Now,
those records are available, open for use.
Mr. Mi:]sidt. Let me see if I summarize vour attitude correctly.
You appai-ently agree"", then, first of all, that some form of segregation
within these ca)nps is desirable?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. To keep the loyal from the disloyal Japs?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. sir.
Mr. ]Mt^ndt. You have so recommended t(t W. li. A. and they have
studied the problem but have not yet achieved a foritiula for doing it?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Consequent!}', you agree that a very careful check
should be made before evacuees are relea.sed from camp and deter-
mine that only the loyal ones are to be released ?
Mr. Masaoka. A reasonable check.
Mr. MuKDT. And you felt distuibed, :is an ennnissary of good will
for the Japanese people, that for a short time, at least, this check had
ap])arently been dro])ped in order to meet labor demands, and you
made a protest to W. R. A. in that connection ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think there is a mistake there. The hibor demands
came in the harvest season. Now, the letter you refer to specifically
was after the harvest. Wasn't that in April ?
Mr. CosTELLO. April 2G.
Mr. Masaoka. So tliat didn't deal witli the harvest. At the time
of the harvest I think a check was made, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. MuNDT. I am referring to this letter that Mr. Stripling was
reading from.
Mr. Striplixg. That was his report to the national headquarters.
Mr. Masaoka. It could have been something in the fall.
Mr. MuNDT. What page is that on?
UN'-AMERICAN' PROPAOAXDA AdlMTrES 9529
Mr. Masaoka. I !)elieve. there was something last fall on the matter,
^as there not, Mr. Matthews?
Mr. Mi.NDT. 1 am i-eadinij; from your report dated A[)ril 26, 1943:
This is definitely off the record, but the project directors alone now have the
power to, issue indetinite furloughs. They don't need an F. B. I. check.
Now, you answered before thnt that was a rather dangerous pro-
c-ednre: that yon »nade some protestations to members of the W. R. A.
Mr. Masaok.v. Yes. I saitl it is a little dangerous, and so on. 1
don't recall their exact an.swer, but I do recall that mention was made.
Mr. xMuNDT. But you do agree to that?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. iMuNDT. That is what I wanted to find out. *
Mr. Co>TELix>. The only information which W. R. A. would have
on any of these Japanese, so far as their files were coiiceriiecl, would
be from tlie time they took over control of the centers; would it not?
Mr. M-vSaoka. It is my miderstandiug that they have available also
the records of the W. C. C. A.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, all they would know then generally
about the persons in centers would be the records established by those
invesiigations at the time they were evacuated?
Mr. Masaoka. On the other hand it is my feeling, whether it is
correct or not. that all Government agencies ought to work together,
certainly the various intelligence services, including F. B. I., should
have a a cry comjdete recoi-d at the time of the outbreak of the war.
I don't believe the Federal Bureau of Investigation was asleep at the
job. -,
May I !nake one statement about the situation, wliile I can remember
that point of view? I was a newcomer to th.e Pacific coast. I was
not in a position to describe the background of these people, especially
when I was so busy that I didn't have time to go to the first generation
functions, but I refer you specifically to the records in Salt Lake City
as to my cooperation with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. MuNDT. Yo!i stated you were affiliated with the Naval Intelli-
gence.
Mr. Masaoka. I was Jiffiiiated with the Naval Intelligence because
they were interested in a little different work. Naval Intelligence is
interested in the general picture, as I understand it, whereas the F.
H. I. is interested in specific cases. Now. I didn't know the specific in-
dividuals that the F. B. I. were interested in. I could not help them.
^Ir. SiiuPLTNG. ]\Ir. Chairman, on the point that Mr. Masaoka made,
that all agencies .should work together, let me ask this: Do you also
agree that ;dl Japanese sliould woik together?
]\Ii-. Masaoka. I wish they would: but they don't.
Mr. Sthii'I-ino. Here is a letter, Mr. Chairman, dated September 17,
1942, to Mr. Mamaro Wakasuga, Weiser, Idaho, signed by Mike
Masaoka, national .secretary. He states [reading] :
I have gorip nvHi- fhe niitiro matter at tjreat length with Mr. rMllnii Myi^r. Di-
rector. Wiir R«'lor\'ition Authority, and Mr. Roser P.ahlwin, director, American
Civil Liht'rrifs Union. I li.-ivc ;il.-<o r-otisnlrrd witli D''. Aiex-indfr Mpiklcjohn. oiip
-of America'.^ foroniost educators and Jiherals, and Vii-tor Rotueni, Civil Rijih^^s
r)ivision. Department of Justice. They ai-e all in agreement that self-imposed
cnrfev%-s and oth<ir restrictions of this nature are had and that they ought to hi'
resisted as much as nossiblo. AH arp agreed th.-it action fmm <ifficial WjisliingtoM
Avould in all probability only incrt'asc the tension, for >!i<>n1(l sdnic directive he
9530 u]s^-AMERICA^' propaganda activities
i!?sned from tlie capital oi-deriiiL' the eliniinatioii of resti'ictioiis, your local groniis
might resent such action and begin agitation comparable to that which forced
evacuation in military area 1.
As a matter of stratejiy, it seems to me that all of you Japanese Americans
and Japanese nationals in your section <!U.uht to get tojiether and work out some
.scheme whereby you would be able to get all the evacuee labor in both the labor
camps and relocation centers to agive not to work unless these cui'bs are done
away with. Working on their part is jmrely voluntary, and it is ray guess
that their aid will be greatly needed during the coming harvest season. If the
sugar-b'vt interests need helpers bad enongli they will s^^e to it tliat local com-
munity pressiu'e is suppressed, just as they sujipresscd even the agitation of your
Governiuent when he deu);mded that all -Japs be ])la< ed in camiis. I believe that
such a procedure is both dignified and effective.
Now, whatsis your comment (.n this proposal of yours?
Mr. Masaoka. I would like to exj^lain tlie backL^rouiul of this.
This deals particularly with certain curfew reguhitions and travel
restrictions levied by a nninber of sheriffs in eastern Oregon — par-
don me, eastern Idaho arid western Oregon. The question came up
as to what should be done.
Naturally, with curfew regulations, they could not take their prod-
uce to market; they couldn't operate their farms sufficiently. With
travel restrictions they couldn't purchase the necessary siipi)lies with-
out going through the battery of a lot of restrictions, and so on.
The question was, how best would it be to deal with this type of
curfew. The answer simply was, the Japanese ought to get together,.
Japanese nationals and American citizens of Japanese ancestry, as
any group would do. labor or any other grou]:*. and organize for
llieir own benefit, and to use each democratic means or process at
their control to gain their just ends.
Now, we have been opposed to answer the first section of that
letter, of people of Japanese ancestry imposing upon them.selves cur-
fews and travel restrictions. We don't believe that they should do
that. We do believe that they should use just discretions in their
actions and care, but certainly tliey should not im]:)ose upon them-
selves un-American practices, because by so doing they are only in-
viting and encouraging other grou]>s to enforce them upon them.
Mr. Stripling. You say further in the letter:
Be sure that you have all the Japanese agreed on this policy before an-
nouncing it. for any scabs or violators will desti-oy the effectiveness of your
entire ]ilan.
Mr. Masaoka. Incidentally, it didn't work out. The Japanese just
would not get together.
Mr. Stripling, Tlie letter further says :
Please consider the above-given suggestions carefidly. Both ju'c loaded with
potential dynamite and may backfire to the detriment of all concerned.
Mr. Masaoka. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Do you consider that it backfired ?
Mr. Masaoka. It didn't work out. The Japanese just would not
agree. In other words any proposals of Ja])anese connected with it
were loaded with dynamite. Anythimx can ha]:>pen : j^ublic misin-
terpretation ; sometimes newspapers and other grouj^s misinterpreted
it. Therefore, we have to ]iroceed witli extreme caution.
Mr. Erfrharter. What wns the date of that lettei?
Mr. Stripl'no. September IT. 1942. I would like to read one other
paragraph. Congressman.
I
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9531
M'r .l;i));inos(> Ai;iei'i( iiiis iiiii'^t l<".';i'it to use tln> \^■•^•ill<)Ils of ('(idjicriition and
united rofnsals which have heeu so pffeotive in the labor movement.
Mr. Masaoka. That we haven't learned.
JVIr. STRiPLiNci. You speak of the ,I:ipanese national as well as the
Japanese American 'i
Air. Masaoka. Yes; because there, you see
Mr. SiKiiLiNG. That is not quite in line with the policy of the
J. A. C. L., is it?
Mr. ^[asaoka. The Japanese nationals were already restricted by
Justict> DepartnuMit re<xuhitions. This was a different requirement.
^Ir. Stmipling. The people had been evacuated at this date?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; but still the Justice Department requires
Mr. STi;iPLiX(i. You were concerned about Japanese who had not
been evacuated and who were not in relocation centers.
Mr. Masaoka. Oh, we were concerned with any person of Japanese
ancestry in this country.
jMr. Stripijng. In other words, you were not concerned with this
innnediate oroup who were interned?
Mr. Masaoka. We were concerned with them and also witli others,
too.
Mr. Stiupi.ix*^,. You were ij^oino; to use the relocation evacuees as a
means to fnrther your aims?
Mr. M.\saoka. No. It was simply a case that there were already
a lot of tliem there. They wanted to know what to do about their
specific pi-oblems. We Avere tryinfr to help them out, that was all.
Mr. Stdipling. But you sup;jyested that they all band together in one
unified block.
]Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. M a critical time of tlie aofricultural season and
make demands, and if they were not met, that no one would work or
cooperate ?
Ml'. Masaoka. At the same time, we were encouraging the peoplf^
to <ro out and ^vork: in other words, in that particular locality we
thonoht that technique mioht be used. It was not, however, used.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Masaoka. in this letter that Mr. Stripling read
to you previously, dated Se])tember 17. in which you urijed that they
should take such means as they could in order to accomplish their
ends, such as strikes, and so on, had there been any strikes in the w-ar
rel^^cati'^Mi centers nrior to the writin<r of that letter?
Mr. Masaoka. Oh, yes. That was not written to relocation centers;
that was written to ]>e()j)]e in free zojies in <>astei-n Idalio and westeni
Orejjon.
Mr. CosTFXLO. Your suof^estion was then that the people outside of
the centers, of Japanese ancesti'v, should eno;ao:e in strikes to accom-
jilisli their purpo.ses, too?
]Mr. ^Ta.saoka. They should, at least, consider it. In other words,
Americans of Japanese ancestry are human beings. They are en-
titled to be treated decently, as you o-ontlemen yourselves admit.
^Ir. Matthews. Did vou discuss this question of possible strikes
with any persons who were experienced in such matters in the labor
movement ?
Mr. Masaoka. Xo. In other words, it was pretty much mv own
idea, T believe. We did not ])econie actively a.ssociated with lal)or
unions until verv late in the proofram.
•9532 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. You did not become actively associated with labor
unions?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir. I didn't meet labor men until just before
my induction.
Mr. Matthews. What labor men did you meet?
Mr. Masaoka. Mr. Sweetland of the C I. O. was about all.
Mr. Matthews. Is his first name Monroe?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Maitheavs. What were your contacts with Monroe Sweetland?
Mr. Masaoka. For approximately a half hour's duration, discuss-
ing the problem.
Mr. Matthews. Did you discuss with hirn the questicm of these
strikes ?
Mr. Masaoka. No. This was an idea that I thought up myself and
never pushed or recommended at any other time.
Mr. Matthews. Do vou know what Sweetland 's connection with
theC. I. O. is?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe he is director of their war council, or some-
thing, isn't it; educational war council, or something?
Mr. Mattheavs. What did you discuss with him? What was the
particular problem ?
Mr. Masaoka. There Avasn't no problem; just a courtesy call.
Mr. ISIattheavs. Did it come at his iuA'itation or did you seek
him out?
Mr. Masaoka. I belicA-e I sought him out.
Mr. Mattheavs. Were you advised by any of your associates or ac-
quaintances to take your problems up Avith the C. I. O. through Mr.
Sweetland?
Mr. Masaoka. That may have been ; I don't knoAv, but I haA^e known
of the Sweetland name for some time.
Mr. Mattheavs. Wliere did you first meet Mr. SAveetland?
Mr. Masaoka. 1 first met him in Washington just recently. I
have only had one contact with him.
Mr. Mattheavs. Do you knoAv anything about Mr. Sweetland's
background?
Mr. Masaoka. No, I do not ; except that he happens to come from
Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Mai-theavs. Except what?
Mr. Masaoka. Except that he hapi)ens to come from Portland, Oreg.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Masaoka, in this letter of September 17, the state-
ment has been read to you :
I have jrone over the entire matter at great length with Mr. Dillon Myer,
Director. AA'ar Relocation Authority, and Mr. Rosier BalihYin, director, American
Civil Liberties Union.
Did you meet Avith both of them at the same time ?
Mr. Masaoka. No. Their ideas Avere that Ave should not have a
self-imposed curfeAv, and so on. That didn't liaA'e reference to the fact
that they should CA'er strike.
Mr. CosTELLo. That had reference to your meeting
jNFr. Masaoka. We didn't meet together.
Mr. CosTET.EO. You mean, you discussed individually the matter
Avith them in order to do away with wdiatever curfews or restrictions
were being placed on the Japanese ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9533
Mr, INIasaoka. Mr. Myer definitely said he couldn't do anything
about it.
INIr. CosTELLO, Then you proposed that the Japanese evacuees in re-
k)cation centers should agree not to work?
Mr. ^Iasvoka. Not in the relocation centers; on the outside, sir.
Mr. CoSTELLO. It states definitely in here [reading] :
As a matter of strategy, it seems to me tbat all of you Japanese-Americans
and Japanese nationals in your section ought to get together —
Ml'. INIasagka. In your section. They are not in relocation centers.
I\Ir. CosTELLO. Wait until I finish the sentence, and we will see.
Mr. Masaoka. All right, sir.
jMr. CosTEi.LO (reading) :
Japanese-Americans and Japanese nationals in your section ought to get
together and work out some scheme whereby you would be able to get all the
evacuees labor in both the labor camps and relocation centers to agree not to
work unless these curbs are done away with.
IMr. ]\Iasacka. That when they came out to that section they
wouldn't work, luiless these
Mr. CosTELLo. It does not say that at all. It says
that all of you Japanese-Americans and Japanese nationals in your section —
]Mr. IMasagka. That is your interpretation of it.
Mr. CosTELLG. That is found in the third paragraph.
IMr. Masaoka. My intent at that time, and I believe that intent is
important, is that we have never suggested, and there is nothing in
the record which will indicate that we have ever supported or advo-
cated strikes of any sort within the relocation centers. I think the
rest of the record will bear that out.
Mr. INIuNDT. Mr. Chairman, read the whole sentence in its entirety,
?nd then let him interpret it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Very well. [Heading:]
As a matter of strategy, it seems to me that all of you Japanese-Americans
and Japanese natirnals in your section ought to get together and work out
some scheme whereby you would be able to get all the evacuee labor in both
th? Ii'ior camps ; i d "relocation centers to agree not to work uules-s these curbs
are done away with.
Then it goes on to say, of course :
Wo king on their part is purely voluntary, and it is my guess that their aid
will be geratly needed during the coming harvest season. If the supir-beet
interests need helpers bad enough, they will see to it that local community
pre-sure is suppr(>ssed, just as they suppressed even the agitation of your
Goverr.ment when he demanded that all Japs be placed in camps.
Now, that indicates as the time came for the harvest and they
needed extia labor, you would bring about effective pressure in order
to enforce these terms in connecticn with all evacuee labor located in
labor camps, on these farms, wherever they might be, as well as those
relocated in the relocation centers.
INIr. Masaoka. Well, that is simply a question of interpretation-
Mr. CosTFLLG. I think that is a pretty definite statement there as to
exactly what you meant.
Mr.SrniPLTXG. Mr. Chairman, the witness was apparently attempt-
ir\(r to lift the curfews upon both the Japanese-Americans and citizens
who had not been checked by the F. B. I. or any other agency. There
<5:'(i26 — i?' — vol. 15 45
9534 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
mio;ht have been a number of Japanese among that group who were
disloyal.
You were attempting to use the organization to lift any restrictions
from them ?
Mr. Masaoka. No. This group was never evacuated. The De-
partment of Justice has already imposed travel and curfew restric-
tions. These were additional restrictions imposed by local authori-
ties, local sheriffs.
Mr. Striplixg. Upon the Japanese in these communities.
Mr. Masaoka. Which were not justified.
Mr. Stripling. In your opinion they were not justified ?
Mr. Ma-saoka. Yes; which were not justified; and therefore we
proceeded with that procedure.
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Masaoka, have you any idea of the percent-
age of Japanese in the relocation centers who may be classed disloyal ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that is a War Department prerogative.
Mr. Eberharter. You would not care to express an opinion as to
what percentage may be disloyal?
]Mr. Masaoka. No ; I would not.
Mr. Eberharter. You do believe, however, that the present method
of operation of these relocation centers is contaminating some of the
good Japanese?
JNIr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Eberharter. Contaminating them in what respect ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, the first and most dangerous thing of all is
that the idea of concentration camps itself is repugnant to the
American way of thinking, and children raised in relocation centers
have a tendency to think of America in terms of barbed wire fences,
and so on, and that is not good for the future.
Then also, of course, are pro-Japanese factions in these centers.
Certainly, some method ought to be taken to move the people out.
I would much rather see the pro- Japanese element left in the centers
to rot, if necessary, and the W. R. A. move and expedite this program
to move out the loyal people.
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, you believe that some of these
Japanese who are loyal may become weak loyal to the United States
or may become weakened in their Americanism and their belief in
the democratic processes by association with Japanese who still re-
tain the Japanese ideology?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, human nature would indicate that, I think.
No man can live in bondage without questioning the reasons for that
bondage. And then there are those who take advantage of the fact
that as American citizens they have been treated this way, you see.
Mr. CosTELLO. You believe that the moral life of the people con-
fined in these relocation centers, the moral fiber, is being weakened?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have a copy of the oath that was taken by
the members of J. A. C. L. ?
Mr. Masaoka. No, sir. I have nothing on me which pertains to
the Japanese American Citizens League. I am no longer connected
with that.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you remember the oath in its entirety? Could
you repeat it?
Mr. Stripling. We have it, Mr. Chairman.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9535
Mr. Masaoka. I can find it in there. Here is the oath. By-laws,
article 1, section 1 [reading] :
Active and associate members of this organization sliall sign the following
pledge, which shall be properly notarized and witnessed and recorded before
receiving their membership cards.
I, the undersigned, do solenmly swear or affirm that I will support and defend
the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign
and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that i do
hereby forswear and repudiate any other allegiance which I knowingly or
unknowingly may have held heretofore, and that I take these obligations freely,
without any mental reservations whatsoever or purposes of evasion, so help
me God.
Mr. CosTELLO. Now, as national secretary of the organization, you
really do believe that there are some of your members who took this
oath with mental reservations?
Mr. Masaoka. It is quite possible.
Mr. CosTELLO. Well, would you say there was a fair percentage of
them or just a very small minority, or rather, exceptions, rare excep-
tions ?
Mr. Masaoka. I personally would like to think it was rare excep-
tions.
Mr. CosTELLO. But you do not have much confidence that it was only
rare exceptions ?
Mr. INL^SAOKA. I have confidence that the great majority, vast ma-
jority, almost every one of them, are loyal, and took the oath without
any mental reservation.
Mr. CosTELLo. Sometimes a majority, Mr. Masaoka, a great majority,
is 60 percent ; sometimes it can be considered 65 or 70 percent or even
an overwhelming majority.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; we can play on words, I understand that.
Mr. CosTELLO. What would be a great majority in your mind,
90 percent?
Mr. Masaoka. I would say over 90 percent.
Mr. CosTELLo. You feel 90 percent took that oath without any
mental reservation?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you any idea, Mr. Masaoka, as to the members
of Kibei who became members of your organization?
Mr. Masaoka. Not a good many. We were not popular with the
IGbei.
Mr. MuNDT. You were not popular with the Kibei?
Mr. Masaoka. Definitely not.
Mr. MuNDT. Were they popular with you?
Mr. Masaoka. No; in fact, they were going to string me up a num-
ber of times.
Mr. MuNDT. More or less mutual distrust?
Mr. ^Masaoka. Well, mutual distrust and dislike and everything
else. By that I don't mean to infer that all Kibei are bad. We have
some outstanding examples. Some have come back from Japan with
a terrific loathing with the Japanese way of life.
Mr. MuNDT. As a student of Japanese psychology and philosophy
and Japanese thinking, what is your opinion of the practice of sending
young Japanase back to Japan to get their schooling?
9536 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Masaoka. I am not quite a student, but my personal observation
again would be that many of them were sent back Avhen they were too
young — that is, to know anything about it. They were seilt back be-
cause their parents realized that their best opportunity was the inter-
national field of commerce, and so on, and that the knowledge of the
language would be helpful.
Air. AluNDT. You think it was a good practice ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think it is being done by almost every nationality
group. The Irishmen do it, and all of them, you know, but because
we are Japanese, because w^e are under suspicion, and so on, at the
j:) resent time, no. .
I might recite, however, that back in the palmy daj^s of the twenties,
American educators — the greater ones, men high in the field of Gov-
ernment in the United States — suggested that America and Japan
might serve as a bridge of understanding, if you please, between the
Americans and the orientals, and that they ought to take special efforts
to study the Japanese language. That was one of the old concepts
which was thrown out, of course.
Mr. Eberharter. In your constitution, do you have set forth briefly
the ])urposes of the organization ^
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir..
Mr. Eberharter. How lengthy is it, Mr. Masaoka?
Air. Masaoka. Well, we have a long one and then we have some short
ones, too. In other words, as any sort of a group of this sort, we play
u]) to membership and that sort of thing, but I can read you a very
short one, if you wish.
Mr. Eberh ALTER. I do not know whether it would be fair to just put
in one short declaration of principles or creed and not include the wliole
thing. If it is a lengthy document, I do not want to burden the record.
Air. AIasaoka. I will say this, the very fact that we ke])t these records
would seem to indicate that we have nothing to be ashamed of in our
record. Furthermore, if you had asked for the records, they would
have been made available to you.
Mr. Eberharter. How many pages does your constitution take?
Air. AIasaoka. Alay I read the policies and the objects?
Mr. Eberharter. How many pages does the whole constitution take ?
Air. AIasaoka. Twelve pages, sir.
Air. Eberharter. Well, then, your piu'poses and objects are rather
lengthy. What is your heading there, "Policies"?
Air. Masaoka. We have the policy and then w^e have the object, and
then we have a statement of policy, declaration of policy.
Air. EPiERTiARTER. Well, I w^oidcl like to have briefly what the purpose
of the organization is, and briefly what the policv of the organization is.
Air. AIasaoka. May I read them to you then ?
AitTlCIJE II
Section 1. The policy of this organization shall be nonpartisan and nonsec-
t.irian in nature. This organization shall not be used for the purposes or of-
ficially endorsing candidates for public offices; or shall it engage in any other
political activity whatsoever, including recommendations on legislative bills,
except when the welfare and civil rights of the American citizens of Japanese
ancestry shall be directly affected or influenced.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9537
Article III
Section 1. The sole (object of this organization shall be to promote, sponsor,
and enconrasie any and all programs, projects, and activities which shall he de-
signed to further tlie two national slogans of this leagne : "For Better Americans
in a Greater Aniei'ica" and "Security Through Unity."
SixTTON 2. This organization shall encourage every member to perform faith-
fully his duties and ohliuations and to participate actively in sharing the common
lifeand lot of all .Aniericans as an American citizen and as a member of the
State and the comnumity in which he may reside.
Now. for the declaration of policy. This is the declaration of
policy of the Japanese American Citizens League.
In these critical days when the policies of many organizations representing
various nationality groups may be viewed with suspicion and even alarm by
certain individuals who are not intimately acquainted with the aims, ideals, and
leadership of such associations, it becomes necessary and proper, in the public
interest, that such fraternal and educational orders as the Japanese American
Citizens League do unequivocally and sincerely announce their policies and
oblectives :
is'ow. therefore, in order to clarify any misconceptions, misunderstandings,
and misapprehensions concerning the functions and activities of this body, the
national board of the Japanese American Citizens League issues the following
statement and declaration of policy :
"We, the members of the national board of the Japanese American Citizens
League of the United States of America, believe that the policies which govern
this organizatioh and our activities as its ofhcial representatives are fourfold
in nature and are best illustrated by an explanation of the alphabetical sequeuce
of the letters J-A-G-L.
" 'J" stands f(n- justice. We believe that all peoples, regardless of race, color,
or creed are entitled to enjoy those principles of 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of
iiappincss' which are presumed to be the birthright of every individual; to the
fair and equal treatment of all, socially, legislatively, judicially, and econom-
ically ; to the rights, privileges, and obligations of citizenship. To this end, this
organization is dedicated.
" 'A" stands for Americanism. We believe that in order to prove ourselves
worthy of the justice which we seek, w^e must prove ourselves to be, first of all,
good Americans — in thought, in words, in deeds. We believe that we must
personify 'The Japanese American Creed' ; that we must acquaint ourselves
with those traditions, ideals, and institutions which have made and kept this
Nation the foremost in the world. We believe that we must live for America — ■
and. if need be. to die for America. To this end, this organization is consecrated.
" 'C stands for citizenship. We believe that we nuist be examplary citizens in
addition to being good Americans, for, as in the case of our parents, one may be
a good American and yet be denied the privilege of citizenship. We believe that
we nnist accept and even seek out opportunities in which to serve our country
and to assume the obligations and duties as well as the rights and privileges of
citizenslnp. To this end. this organizition is committed.
" 'L' stands for leader.ship. We belipve that the Japanese American Citizens
League, as the only national organization established to serve the American
citizens of Japanese ancestry, is in a position to lead actively the .Japanese people
residing in the United States. We believe that we have the inspired leadership
and the membership necessary to carry into living effect the principles of justice,
Americani?;m. and citizenship for which our league was founded. We offer co-
operation and support to all groups and individuals sincerely and legitimately
interested in these same aims, but we propose to retain our independent and
separate status as the Japanese Atnerican Citizens League. To this end, this
organization is pledged."
Summing up. briefly, the Japanese American Citizens League is devoted to
those tasks which are calculated to win ftir ourseh-es and our posterit.y the
status outlined by our two national slogans: "For Better Americans in a Greater
America" and "Security Through Unity."
That, gentlemen, I believe summarizes it.
Mr. CosiELLo. In view of the fact that there is a quorum call in
the House, the committee will stand in recess until 2 :30. You will be
available this afternoon at 2:30?
9538 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. We may call you again on Monday.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., the committee was in recess until 2 : 30
p. m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The committee reconvened at 2 : 30 p. m., pursuant to the recess.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order. Mr. Slocum, will
you please resume the stand ?
TESTIMONY OF TOKUTARO NISHIMURA SLOCUM— Eecalled
Mr. CoSTELLo. Mr. Slocum, I had a report from the Federal Bureau
of Investigation that there was a comment in the newspapers regard-
ing some of the testimony which you gave before the committee in
regard to Mr. Kurusu, and his statement in relation to the fact that
he knew or anticipated war between Japan and the United States
in the near future, and you are quoted there as having sent that infor-
mation to the F. B. I. I understand that that is not a correct state-
ment.
Mr. Slocum. That is right. It is not correct, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. The information that you had regarding Kurusu
was sent to the Office of Naval Intelligence ?
Mr. Slocum. Very true, sir. It was to the Naval Intelligence that
I reported at that time, sir. However, I did not want to quote the
Naval Intelligence, so I made the statements on the minutes of your
record that you will find that it was to the duly constituted Federal
authority. That was the words I used for it, and I am very grateful
to make the correction as to the matter, in all fairness to tlie great
office of the F. B. L, and I thank you.
Mr. CosTELLO. All right.
Mr. Slocum. It is also stated in the paper somewhere that I am a
Federal agent. I am not, sir. All my services have been gratuitously
done, voluntary service, as a duty of a citizen, and I have never
said at any time anything that I am a Federal F. B. I. agent, or any-
thing of the kind, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. You never received any salary or anything of the
kind from them ?
Mr. Slocum. No, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. You did receive some salary to cover some expenses,
you say?
Mr. Slocum. Very little, sir. I only received $9.60 from the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation in all my life, and that was in rounding
up all the Japanese war veterans on the west coast, and that was my
expense, and I had a heck of a time collecting that.
Mr. CosTELLo. It is always difficult to collect money from the Fed-
eral Government.
Mr. Slocum. Thank you, sir.
Mt. Costello. All right, Mr. Masaoka. Will you please resume the
stand?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9539
TESTIMONY OF MIKE MASAOKA— Resmned
Mr. Matthews Mr. ISIasaoka, just before the recess you were asked
some questions about your proposal for strikes against the curfew
and otlior restrictions on the part of Americans of Japanese ancestry
and also Japanese nationals. When you made that proposal, were
you not apprehensive that disloyal elements would certainly attempt
to use the strike weapon to carry out their disloyal purposes?
Mr. Masaoka. ]\Iny I ask one question? Do you consider it to be
un-American to strike?
Mr. CosTELLO. I do not think it is the purpose of the witness to
interrogate counsel for the committee. We are simply trying to get
the information from the witness himself.
Mr. IMasaoka. As I contended, and I still contend, the intent of
that letter was not that they strike in relocation centers or anything
else of the sort. In addition to that, the letter was addressed to a
person in which I have the utmost confidence. That matter was
taken up. I don't know whether it was taken up or not. The letter
was at least addressed to him and we heard nothing further on the
whole matter.
Mr. ^Iatthews. Perhaps the witness will understand my question
better if I give him an illustration which is accepted generally.
At the North American Aviation Plant in California back in the
spring of 1941, there was a strike which was generally attributed by
the President of the United States himself and by various Federal
authorities to disloyal elements using the strike weapon to sabotage
this country's preparedness. Did you happen to note that incident
at the time?
Mr. jNIasaoka. I recall something about the strike, that is all.
ISIr. Matthews. I mean you read that the Communists, in pursuing
their policy against this country's preparedness, used the strike
weapon to tie up the production of airplanes?
Mr. ]Masaoiva. I had not heard that; no.
jNIr. oSIatthews. Well, do you know enough about the history of
strikes to know that on occasions, at least, strikes have been so used
by disloyal elements?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know too much about the history, but that is
easily conceivable.
Mr. Matthews. I wonder if it did not occur to you that with a
significant proportion of disloyal elements certainly among Japanese
nationals to say nothing of Japanese-American citizens, that these
strikes would certainly be easily available to those elements to do
harm in this country.
Mr. Masaoka. In the first place, I would challenge your statement
that a significant number were disloyal; secondly, I would say that
the Japanese have never used the strike weapon and, therefore, they
didn't even consider my suggestions.
Mr. ^Matthews. You say that vou conferred with Mr. Monroe
SweetlandoftheC.I.O.?
Mr. ]\Iasaoka. Yes ; I always thought that the C. I. O. was quite a
responsible and recognized organization of labor.
Mr. Matthews. Did you call on any high official in the American
Federation of Labor on the same business?
9540 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Masaoka. An approach was made ; tliat is all.
Mr. Matthews. Did you make a visit to anyone?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Matthews. Did you try to make a visit to anj^one ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. To whom ?
Mr. Masaoka. Let me say a number of names were suggested to us.
Mr. Matthews. By whom ?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall.
Mr. Matthews. Were you refused an audience ?
Mr. Masaoka. No; I wrote them some letters and I asked other
people as to what their reaction might be, and invariably the answer
was that now was not the appropriate time to make such an approach.
Mr. Matthews. But you were advised that it was the time to ap-
proach the C. I. O. ? You so stated this morning.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, it was suggested that I go to see the C. I. O.
I called tliem up.- They were willing to see me, so I went to see them.
Mr. Mattheavs. But you were advised against approaching the
American Federation of Labor?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, not advised against. The}^ merely said it was
not the applicable time; they probably were not interested anyway.
Mr. Matthews. When you were a student of the University of
Utah were you a member of the American Students Union?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't believe we ever had a chapter.
Mr. Matthews. Did you ever hear of the American Students
Union ?
Mr. Masaoka. Not until I came here.
Mr. Matthews. Did you know that Mr. Monroe Sweetland, with
whom you conferred at C. I. O. headquarters, was a high official of
the American Students Union before he went with the C. I. O. ?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know. After all, I don't have the available
facilities or tlie resources to make such investigations.
Mr. Matthews. Now, taking up the matter of your relations with
the W. R. A. and Mr. Dillon Myer, I want to read from your report
to your national headquarters, which has already been identifiecl by
you, the report being dated September 19, 1942, as follows :
Mr. Myer is afraid that certain guys in Congress would jump down their
collective throats if they could only imagine a part of the opportunity which we
play in forming War Relocation Authority policies.
You wrote that to national headquarters.
Mr. Masaoiov. That again, I would say, would pass off as some of
my exaggeration to impress the local office.
Mr. Matthews. This section is headed "Strictly confidential," un-
derscored, in capital letters.
Mr. Masaoka. A favorite technique of mine, if you observe all the
reports ; nothing unusual.
Mr. Matthews. You start off with these words :
Myer put this up to me directly and pointedly.
Now, I will put it up to you directly and pointedly.
Mr. Masaoka. It is rather difficult to recall that far back.
Mr. Matthews. Well, what it was that he put up to you was that
he was afraid that certain guys in Congress would jump down their,
that is, the W. R. A.'s collective throats if they could only imagine a
X7N-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9541
part of the part wliicli you. that is, the Japanese American Citizens
League. 1 take it, i)hive(l in formino- ^X. R. A. policy. Did Mr.
Myor })nt anythin<>; like that up to you?
Mr. JNIasagka. That is probably my own interpretation of what he
said.
Mr. Matthews. Further, you say [reading] :
He has given us the directives and instructions of his department.
Mr. jNIasaoka. That should be qualified.
Mr. Matthews (reading) :
They are to be held in the strictest confidence and are not to be announced to
anyone. They are merely to serve as a hint to us of their policy — nothing more.
Mr. Masaoka. As I said this morning, those directives and that are
matters of public record. They were given to us after they were issued
to their regular personnel and, I also note, they might have been made
available to other groups.
Mr. Matthews. Following up your statement that you had received
these strictly confidential directives and instructions
Mr. Masaoka. "Well, you have the directives here. Are they listed
as strictly confidential?
Mr. Mattheavs. You stated further :
Our working relationships with Myer are now on a better plane than with
Eisenhower.
What did you mean by that ?
Mr. Masaoka. Mr. Myer, I believe, is better suited to the task of
administering the»War Relocation Authority than was Mr. Eisen-
hower, along certain specific lines.
Mr. Matthews. This refers not to the administration of the centers,
but to your relationships with the two men.
INIr. Masaoka. Well, my relationships with Mr. Eisenhower were,
of cour.se, drastically and abruptly, more or less, cut off when he be-
came Associate Director of the O. W. I. I had longer association,
naturally, with Mr. M3"er because he was the Director for a much
lonirer period.
Mr. Matith.ws. Is not the plain inference of this statement, though,
in its context, that Mr. Myer was willing to trust you with the most
strictly confidential documents, from his agency
]\Ir. Masaoka. Xo. The point is that he did not.
Mr. Matthews. And that ]\Ir. Eisenhower did not?
Mr. Masaoka. The point is that lie did not. Regardless of what
the inferences ai-e that may be drawn or show, the facts are clear.
You have all the records here. You know what we received. There
was nothing in tiiem which is of such confidential nature that it would
be dangerous to be shown publich^
Mr. Matthews. Why did you Avrite at such great length to the
effect that they were so strictly confidentiaU
. Mr. Masaoka. I move to write.
Mr. CosTELi.o. Why did vou specifically use the word "confi-
dential"?
Mr. Masaoka. T do that often. If you read mj present letters, I
use that term often.
]\fr. CosTEi.LO. It is not natural to put at the top of the page "con-
fidential" unless you really mean that the matter contained in that
paper is of a private character; is that not correct?
9542 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Masaoka. It was of a private character as far as our national
headquarters were concerned,
Mr. CosTELLO. Not only do you use the word "confidential" in
there, but you say "Strictly confidential."
Mr. Masaoka. I use "strictly confidential."
Mr. CosTELLO. Meaning that this must be kept on the q. t.
Mr. Masaoka. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Expressions of that kind run all the way through
in relation to those matters.
Mr. Masaoka. And in relation to many other matters, too, if you
will note in the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. All matters in which it is used are in connection
with dealings of the W. E. A.
Mr. Masaoka. I wrote the letters. I knew what I wrote. I wrote
them as confidential because I wanted to impress the local hea3^
quarters.
Mr. CosTELLO. You were trying to impress the local headquarters
that you got these directives ahead of schedule and before they
were released to the public, so that the centers would be impressed
by what you were accomplishing.
Mr. Masaoka. They had never been relayed on to the, centers.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say you put in the word "confidential" in this
report merely to impress the leaders of the J. A. C. L?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, the local office.
Mr. CosTELLo. You wanted to impress them that you were getting
these directives secretly before they were released to other officials
inW. K. A?
Mr. Masaoka. They knew it was not secretly and they knew it was
not before it was received by other groups, because I received them
in bunches after the dates were possibly a week or two behind times.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is it not a fact that you actually received some di-
rectives before they were released to the W. R. A. authorities?
Mr. Masaoka. Not that I know of.
Mr. CosTELLO. Then that statement contained in this letter is ab-
solutely false.
Mr. Masaoka. Will you repeat again the statement?
Mr. Matthews. Well, there are a great many of them.
Mr. CosTELLO. The one regarding the directives.
Mr. Matthews. Well, you state that you have been given the di-
rectives and instructions of his department; that they are to he
held in the strictest confidence and are not so be announced to any-
one; that they are merely to serve to indicate to you their policy and
npfi-infT y^orp. T^^'^i is one of th'^ statements.
Mr. Masaoka. There is nothing there to say that we received it
before; IS tliat correct?
Mr. CosTELLO. The statement is that they are to be held in strictest
confidence.
Mr. Masaoka. But nothing to say that we received them before.
Mr. CosTELTO. It does not indicate in that particular statement that
you received them ahead of time.
Mr. Mattheavs. In the early part of this document you state about
the directives, "All are most confidential and we were lucky to get
them ourselves."
TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9543
Mr. Masaoka. Well, everyone like to pat himself on the back. It
is human nature.
Mr. C'osTELLO. Let us be frank. This is not a case of comi)limenting
yourself or patting yourself on the back. There are certain definite
English words used"^ for expressing your thoughts typed out here.
They were typed out after you had been to see Mr. Myer and apparently
before the report was sent out to other groups of the J. A. C. L.
Mr. ilASAOKA. Only to the local headquarters and the people listed
there.
JNIr. CosTELLO. Undoubtedly you intended to have the people out
there get the same meaning out of it that we are getting right now.
It was not a case of exaggerating or patting yourself on the back, but
your frank idea was that you were telling them that the directiyes you
re<-eived were confidential ; that the directives you were sending out
to the J. A. C. L. local were confidential, and that they were not to
release the information contained therein; that it was given to them
fco that they would have some idea what W. R. A. was doing and which
W. R. A., apparently, was not at the time prepared to announce pub-
licly it was doing, or they were not prepared to announce those direc-
tives were to be released at that time.
ISfr. Masaoka. All the directives were released to the project direc-
tors and the others before we received them.
Mr. CosTELLo. Maybe the project director had them, but the public
did not know about them. They were not of a public nature at the
time they were given to you. They were not published in the Federal
Register at the time you received them.
Mr. Masaoka. No ; but I presume that some other organizations may
also have received them; groups interested in the problem.
Mr. CoSTELLO. The directives might have been sent to the War De-
partment or to the Navy Department or to the Yv^hite House or maybe
even down to the Congress, but they were all labeled "Confidential,"
and not for public release at that time.
Mr. Masaoka. I believe you have some of the directives here.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kanazawa, the eastern representative of your
organization, testified here yesterday under oath that he, himself, had
received confidential documents and directives from Mr. Myer.
Mr. ISTasaoka. Well, I have not.
Mr. Stripling. Well, do you know whether Mr. Kanazawa did?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; I don't.
Mr. Matthews. You so stated, did you not, on one occasion, that it
was Joe who had actually, in person, received these?
]\Ir. Masaoka. Yes, Joe had received them, but I never sent on
any of the directives. And, I believe you have some copies of them here
which state on the directives that they are strictly confidential. Per-
haps any co]:)ies of the directives which we made, we may have done
the same thing, but on the mimeographed sheet delivered to us by the
W. R. A., the word "confidential" is not written.
INlr. Matthews. You call particular attention to the use which Kido
in Poston might make of tliese confidential documents, and j^ou said
"Be careful," and that refers especially to Ivido in Poston, for Ed
Wade — who I take it is Mr. Head.
Mr. ISIasaoka. That is correct.
9544 UN-AMERICAK" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews (continiung). Decided to get sore, if he discovered
that you had copies, God Bless America.
Mr. Masaoka. I might state we discovered hiter through conversa-
tion with ^Ir. Kido that through the project attorney there, because he
was a member of the project attorney's staff, he saw all of the directives
before we sent them to him.
Mr. Matthews. Do I understand you to say that in order to pat
yourself on the back, you were willing to compromise Mr. Myer?
Mr. Masaoka. What do you mean by that statement ?
Mr. Matthews. Well, in effect, you are attributing to Mr. Myer what
I think some of the committee members have expressed as misconduct
in the administration of his office.
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Matthews. And in order to pat yourself on the back you are
willing to compromise him.
Mr. Masaoka. That was not my intent. I believe Mr. Myer has
done an excellent job.
Mr. Matthews. Quite apart from whether or not you think Mr. Myer
has done an excelleni job, do you not consider that he would have been
guilty of improperly using the confidential documents of his office if
he had used them as you describe here ?
Mr. Masaoka. They were not confidential. I believe the directives
themselves — and you should have some here in your records — none of
them indicate that they are confidential on their face.
'Mr. Matthews. Continuing from this section which is marked
"Strictly confidential," I read as follows :
This last week has been an extremely eiicouraging one. It seems that Myer
has returned from his west-coast trip imhvied with a new spirit and fight on the
whole matter. He sees the problem now in three stages and not in two: Move-
ment to assembly centers ; movement to relocation ceutei'S ; movement out of
relocation centers to private employment. He believes that if the t>pp;)rtunity
is granted to everyone, Nisei, Kibei and Issie alike to leave if they want to, it
will not only relieve the tensions developed in camp but make it that such easier
to develop theii- own program. Frankly, he is ready to fight the Army itself on
this matter of final authority. He has said that he has told the Secretary of War
that as far as he is concerned that all persons may leave relocation centers and
settle in the Western Defense Command if they can meet his requirements so
long as they stay out of the prohibited areas themselves. He has laid down the
same principle for r>rum and the Eastern Defense Command. He has gone so far
as to say that it is up to him to say what's what in those relocation centers which
are in military area 1. If the Army won't let me run the complete show, they can
take them over themselves and run it alone. Iv^o division of authority. He ad-
mitted it was a bluff, but he knows that DeWitt hates to think about this evacuee
prob'em and that this may be the way for him to get away from the AV. C. C. A.
interference with his program. He is now having Holland work on a new and
more liberal rek^ase policy to replace present directive No. 22. The general terms
of it will be, as I understand it :
1. The applicant for release must either have a job in mind or promised or
intends to oi^en his own business ;
2. The comnnmity to which he proposes to move will give him what is called
"comnmiiity acceptance" (up to now this has meant that the mayor or chief of
police had to do it — their new thinking is that if some prominent citizen will
say that in his opinion it's O. K., it'll be acceptable) :
3. The applicant has no record against him in the P. B. I. files (up to now an
investigation was called for ; now the name will merely be checked against existing
F. B. I. files and if there is no record against him it will serve as an O. K. to go
out. Myer is even going one step further. If Hoover or the Justice Department
will say that they will watch over all those who leave, even this requirement will
be eliminated. It is now needed, he feels, in order to gain quicker '■community
sicceptance" ;
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9545
4. The i)Oi-s(in will keep the W. R. A. iiifoniii'd as to changes in address. This is
not compulsory but merely to aid in the linal return of their property and belong-
ings which remain on the west coast. The tiction of "protective custody'' has been
dropped : that was the one where the Dir(>ctor ccmld order the return of anyone
whom he thought was not gaining conunnnity good will or being it good citizen
or threatened public njirisings seemed inmiinent because of his jjresence. etc. All
this was such a liberalization that Tom Holland threw up his hands on his return
from the West and said: '"My God, Mike, what's happened to Myer?" Anyway,
they are now working on the new directive and hope to get Army and Navy ap-
proval within the next 10 days or 2 weeks.
Now. are j^oii describing- the contents of a directive ?
Mr. Masaoka. I am de^cribino- a conversation, I believe. May I ex-
plain the procednre there? When tlie evacuation was first ordered,
I believe it was the intent of the Government that they conld move out
and settle elsewhere, but because of the resistance of the Governors
of the 12 "Western States it crystallized in a conference in May, I be-
lieve, when ]\Ir. Eisenhower and I believe the Assistant Secretary of
War met with the Governors in Salt Lake City. It was thought that
perhaps it would have to be evacuation 'from their normal commun-
ities into war relocation centers and then into these relocation centers
for the duration. Mr. Myer took this trip and he came back with the
idea that perhaps now they could resume their original intent.
Mr. Matthews. Xow, at that point I would like to ask you a ques-
tion. You say you are not describing the contents of a directive but
describing a conversation.
Mr. ]Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. A conversation with Mr. Mjer ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe so.
Mr. ^f ATTHEws. And is this a correct description of your conversa-
tion with Mr. Myer?
Mr. Masaoka. So far as I can remember; yes, sir.
]Mr. Matthews. And that is a correct description of your conversa-
tion Avith Mr. Holland?
Mr. Masaoka. As far as I can remember.
Mr. Matthews. He threw up his hands and said, "My God, Mike."
Mr. Masaoka. Well, it was one of those things, you know.
]\rr. Matthews. Xow, -was any of this published or released to the
public^
Mr. ^Iasaoka. You mean, the general directive?
Mr. ^Iatphews. Yes.
Mr. ^Iasaoka. Yes; the matter in there was released publicly; that
they had to have a job; that they had to have community acceptance;
that they liad to be checked through the F. B. I. files and that they had
to keep the W. R. A. informed. Yes; those are in public knowledge,
released through the newspapers and elsewhere.
Mr. jSIatthews. B}' whom ?
]Mr. ]Masaoka. Through the W. R. A. I believe.
Mr. ^Iatthews. ^Vell, did they release information that there did
not have to be a check against the F. B. I. files, as you state here at
one point?
Mr. Masaoka. There it says that after Hoover and the Justice De-
partment would assume the responsibility, isn't that correct?
Mr. Matthews. Yes; after they left the camp.
jSIr. Masaoka. Well, the point is that they didn't assume that re-
sponsibility: therefore, presumabh', the check went on.
9546 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. But, at any rate, Mr. Myer did have a conversation
of this character with you?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. You were not exaggerating any point in this par-
ticuhir paragraph ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, those are connnon knowledge. It has been
published now.
Mr. Stripling. If he did publish them, why did he state he was
waiting authority and approval of the War and Navy Departments ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, at the time he described it to me was before
it was published.
Mr. Stripling. Well, then, it was not published; it was not public
when he discussed it with you.
Mr. Masacka. Probably not.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, he had it 2 weeks before the Army
and the Navy acted on it.
Mr. Masaoka. Before the Army and the Navy acted on it, but they
were cognizant of the proposed change.
Mr. Stf.ipling. Would you not consider that to be confidential?
Mr. Masaoka. Confidential to our office; yes.
Mr. Si-RiPLiNG. Well, I mean confidential so far as W. R. A. was
concerned.
Mr. Masaoka. We didn't go shouting to the skies. After all, you
know, as a part of democracy, as a taxpayer, I am entitled to sit down
with the men who spend that money and to discuss with them certain
programs, and so on. If he desires to tell me certain things, that is
his business.
Mr. Matthews. He told you that he had said to Secretary of War
Stimson that regardless of the wishes of certain men in the Army, he
was going to see to it that the W. R. A. was the sole boss ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, that would have to be taken up with the War
Department now.
Mr. CosTELLO. Not now, but something that happened in the past;
not as you are constituted now, but this is a comment prior to your
entering into the service, and I do not think.it would directly affect
your military status at all.
Mr. Matthews. It is just a question what Mr. Myer told you about
his own intentions toward the Army. But, you have said that this is
a correct report of the conversation, so that answers the question.
Mr. Mas'vOka. As fas as I can remember; yes.
Mr. Matthews. So that answers the question.
Mr. Stripling. On that point, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask
the witness if he made frequent contacts with certain officials and
officers of the War Department during this same period?
Mr. Masaoka. That, I am sure, is a policy of the War Dapartment
to answer.
Mr. Stripling. This occurred before you were inducted into the
special combat unit of the Army.
Mr. Masaoka. Nevertheless, it still is the policy of the War Depart-
ment. I would rather have them answer it.
Mr. Stripling. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I will read
this into the record.
Mr. Costfllo. I believe. Captain, you are representing the War De-
partment here, are you not?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITTES • 9547
Captain Hall. Yes. I tliink it would be all right for Mr. Masaoka to
answer that question, certainly.
Mr. CosTELLo. This question was simply put to him, whether he
had contact with some officials of the War Department prior to his
goino- into the Army, in this connection.
Mr. Masaoka. Oh, yes.
Mr. STRirLiNG. According to j'our report of April 26, 1943, to the
national headquarters, on page 5 you said :
Joe and I called on Assistant Secretary of War McCIoy and his executive
assistants, Colonel Scobey and Captain Hall.
Did you, on various occasions, discuss the Japanese situation with
Mr. McCloy and Colonel Scobey?
Mr. INIasaoka. And with his predecessor, Colonel — no; I don't re-
call the name.
^Ir. MuNDT. Were these personal conferences you held or indirect
conferences, about which you spoke this morning?
Mr. Masaoka. Both.
Mr. Stripling. As a matter of fact, you had numerous personal
conferences with Colonel Scobey ; did you not ?
Mr. Masaoica. Quite a few ; not too many. Mr. Kanazawa handled
most of those when I went away.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to submit this to the Chair also. Mr.
Masaoka, I would like to have you identify this. Mr. Chairman, I
would like to introduce into evidence a report dated April 19, 1943,
from Mr. Masaoka to the national headquarters, attention of the
stalf members.
Will you identify this report as a copy of the original which you
sent?
IVIr. INIasaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, this matter might deserve censure;
I do not know. I would like to read it and have your judgment
on it. On page 3 Mr. Masaoka wrote the following [reading] :
The notion that cleared Nisei ought to be permitted to return to the Pacific
coast if they so desire seems to have caught on here. I understand that, from
highly confidential and reliable sources. Dillon Myer is now conA-iiice I that
unless the Nisei are permitted to return to California tlie general War Reloca-
tion Authority resettlement program is doomed to failure. In line with this
thinking, he has presented a memorandum to the President. Biddle and Elmer
Davis have agreed with Myer's thinking and Davis has assigned a number of
his boys the job of working out an acceptable Office of War Information
release system which will prevent the vicious California press from making
too great an issue of it. AVithin the War Department there is a break between
the civilian and military heads on this subject. Assistant Secretary of War
McCloy after a written confidential opinion from Biddle himself, has written
the President to the effect that he now believes that the military aspects of
this problem have passed and that the civilians ought to take over along the
lines suggested above. I understand that Secretary Stimson has gone so far
as to orally agree that this phase of the problem is beyond that of the military.
As you can well guess, the General Staff and General DeWitt both oppose
this thinking. They insist that as long as tbe Japanese have any toehold in
Alaska the west coast is in imminent danger of invasion and that therefore
this problem is still primarily one for the military. Just how this behind-the-
scenes argument will progress can't be predicted at this time but I am
encouraged that there is a strong opinion in favor of such a program. It's
ray personal guess that DeWitt's im-American attacks were aimed more at
stopping this growing attitude on Capitol Hill than in attempting to Influence
the Supreme Court judges. You may be interested to know that both the
9548 ' UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Secretary of War and the Office of War Information were incensed at DeWitt's
statement and that they have taken steps to "slap" him for them.
Could I question the witness on that, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you write that?
Mr. INIasaoka. I did that, but I believe that the answer is with
the War Department on that.
Mr. Stripling. You would care to divulge where you obtained such
highly confidential information dealing with a rift within the War
Department between the high command and the civilian authorities?
Mr. Masaoka. No, sir.
INIr. Stripling. It is your position that you cannot divulge the
information. You do, however, admit that such a situation existed?
Mr. Masaoka. I was told that it existed.
Mr. Stripling. Is that sufficient ?
Mr. INIatthews. Along the same line, at the conclusion of this
strictly confidential section in your report, you said "ISIyer spent
about 10 minutes cussing the Army on problems of this nature,"
referring to what has gone before alreacfy, that we discussed.
Mr. Masaoka. That was just good natured ribbing, I suppose.
■ Mr. Matthews. The matters referred U) in that particular docu-
ment read by Mr. Stripling go far beyond good natured ribbing;
do they not ?
Mr. Masaoka. Is there a connection between the two here ?
Mr. Matthews. That Mr. Myer is concerned about the Army here
and General DeWitt and General Di'um.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; there seems to be a connection.
Mr. Stripling. The Justice Department, apparently, Mr. Chair-
man, is not involved in this confidential category.
Did you ever have any contacts in the Department of Justice,
personal contacts, or any conferences?
Mr, Masaoka. Some.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mr. Ennis?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to read, Mr. Chairman, an excerpt
from Mr. Masaoka's report of April 26, 1943.
Mr. CosTELLO. Let me ask a few questions regarding this matter
you read previously.
Mr. Stripling. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosiELLO. You said that Biddle and Elmer Davis have agreed
oh Myer's thinking. Did you talk with either Mr. Biddle or Mr.
Davis about that ?
Mr. Masaoka. No. I was told by the person who gave me the
general information.
Mr. CosTELLo. You did not receive this information from any of
the parties named herein?
Mr. Masaoka. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLo. Is the person from whom you received that con-
nected with the military ? Is he connected in any way with the AVar
Department ?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't remember.
Mr. CosTELLo. You do remember from whom you received the in-
formation; do you not?
Mr. Masaoka. I have an idea, yes.
UN-AiMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9549
j\Ir. CosTELLO. You say you do not remember who gave you the in-
formation. Was it just one person?
!Mr. Masaoka. No; 1 think it was a number of people. I just added
tliem together.
Mr. CosTELLo. Did you contact Mr. Myer concerning tliis and get
some of this information from him?
Mr. Masaoka. 1 may have.
Mr. CosTELLO. You state here that in line with this thinking;
namely, the release of Nisei to California, that he, Mr. Myer, has
presented a memorandum to the President.
]Mr. Masaoka. He didn't tell me he did. Somebody else told me
that.
]\Ir. ]MrxDT. You say you checked on this to get a story for the
P. C. the Pacific Citizen?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
-Mr. ]MuxDT. Did vou ever write a story for them?
Mr. Masaoka. In relation to this matter here?
jSlr. ]MuxDT. Yes.
Mr. ]Masaoka. No, sir.
^Ir. MuNDT. You further say :
It is also believed that Myer and Glick took a special plane to San Francisco
to repnliate DeWitt's statement on behalf of the Government and to testify
favorably in our behalf.
Did they make sucli a trip?
]Mr. Masaoka. I was told that they did.
]Mr. ^luxDT. From sources that you believe reliable ?
]Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
jNIr. iVIuxDT. But 3^ou do not feel at liberty to disclose the source?
Mr. IMasaoka. I can't remember who told me. I believe it was
someone Avithin the W. E. A.
Mr. ]\IuxDT. Someone within the W. R. A. ?
;Mr. Masaoka. I believe, to the best of my memory.
Mr. McxDT. Of your own knowledge, have you followed through
to see Avhether that trip was made?
Mr. Masaoka. I did not.
Mr. CosTELLo. There is one other sentence in here I would like to
inc[uire about. I do not know whether it was read or not. [Reading :]
One of these, I understand, is an order from Stimson himself to General
DeWitt that Nisei in uniform can come and go as they please on the same basis
as others on furlough in the Western Defense Command.
j\Ir. Masaoka. That memorandum or report is dated April 19. 1943.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you know at that time that General DeWitt
had issued an order dated A])ril 18 permitting JTaj^anese Americans,
who were serving witli the Army, to enter the l^^cific coast area that
had been restricted?
Mr. Masaoka. Let me see now. Did I know at the time of this
writing that General DeWitt
Mr. CosTELLO (continuing). Had issued that order?
jNIr. Masaoka. That they could go back ?
Mr. CoSTELLo. Yes.
Mr. Masaoka. 1 believe it was in the New York newspapers.
Mr. CosTELLo. That was issued before the date of this ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; I believe it was in the New York papers and
possibly the local papers.
62626— 43— vol. 15 i6
9550 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO, Are you willing to state from whom you got your
information that it was from Stimson himself to General DeWitt,
directing General DeWitt to make that order ?
Mr. Masaoka. No; I am not.
Mr. Eberharter. The name of Glick was mentioned. Who is he?
Mr, Masaoka. Mr. Glick is the solicitor for the W. K. A.
Mr. EcERHARTER. Here in Washington?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. EKERHA.RTER. His actual title is "counsel" is it not?
Mr. Masaoka. No. I think they use the term "solicitor."
Mr. Eberharter. Solicitor for the W. R. A. ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Eberharter. Thank you.
Mr. Stripling. You stated a few minutes ago, Mr. Masaoka, that
you knew Mr. Ennis.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. In that connection, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
read an excerpt from the report of AjDiil 26.
I have just completed making one of my best contacts here, Edward J. Ennis,
Director of the Alien Enemy Control Unit, Department of Justice. Up to this
time, I have avoided him because I did not want us to be connected with enemy
aliens in any way whatsoever, but as I had some questions to ask regarding
internees, I called upon him after having Roger Baldwin make the contact
for me. Ennis, as you know, represented the Government in San Francisco in
the evacuation cases.
Ennis permitred me to sit in on a conference of Government oflScers who were
discussing the Government brief in the Hirabyashi and Yasui cases. From all
indications, they will try to be very fair in their anaysis
Mr. Mundt. Did you actually sit in on their conference?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; I was told about the conference.
Mr. Stripling (reading) :
for most of them felt that the Government overstepped its bounds in evacuating
American citizens. What bothers me though is that the Supreme Court has so
little background in this field that the Justice Department is supplying most of
it with the aggressive cooperation of Bendetsen and the Western Defense Com-
mand. It appears that the Government case will be based upon the same sort
of arguments as presented in San Francisco only greatly reinforced.
Mr. Masaoka. That point
Mr. Stripling. I have not completed.
Mr. Masaoka. I am sorry.
Mr. Stripling (reading) :
Ennis assures me that the Justice Department will not try to argue on tech-
nicalities but rather as to the constitutionality of the whole procedure. Privately,
and off the record, he feels that we have an excellent chance of winning, especially
if the question of detention comes up.
Did Mr. Ennis tell you that?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe he did.
Mr. CosTELLO. You did have a conference then regarding this
matter ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, but J:he Government brief was prepared at that
time anyway.
Mr. Stripling. Well, you state here [reading] :
Ennis permitted me to sit in on a conference of Government officers who were
discussing the Government brief in the Hirabyashi and Yasui cases.
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9551
Is that true ? Did you sit in on a conference ?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; I didn't sit in the conference.
Mr. Stripling. But he did tell you privately and off the record that
he felt that you had an excellent chance of winning the case?
Mr. Masaoka. If detention came up. Detention did not come up.
Mr. CosTELLO. Just a moment. "Now, we are trying to get informa-
tion. In the opening sentence you say that you did sit in on a con-
ference with Ennis.
]\Ir. Masaoka. I did not sit in a conference with Ennis.
Mr. CosTELLO. And further down now you say that Ennis told you
that you had an excellent chance of winning the case.
Mr. Masaoka. If detention came up.
JSIr. CosTELLo. And he did not tell you that at the time of the
conference?
Mr. INIasaoka. It was not at the conference. He told me about the
conference.
Mr. CosTELLo. He told you about the conference. You did not sit
in on it ?
Mr. Masaoka. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. And he also told you about these other things; that
you had an excellent chance of winning the case?
Mr. Masaoka. The point of that is clear. Mr. Ennis has stated,
I believe, to some other people, too, that detention is a weak point.
In other words, that evacuation and that might be upheld as a mili-
tary necessity and be held constitutional, but that to detain them af-
terward had the best chance for us to win.
Now, when the Supreme Court sat in on the cases recently, they
did not determine evacuation or detention; they merely passed on
the curfew policy. I think that is correct, is it not ?
Mr. Matthews. I would like to know if Mr. Ennis invited you to
sit in on that conference.
Mr. Masaoka. No; he did not.
Mr. Matthews. What did you mean by the word "permitted"?
]\Ir. Masaoka. I think I was merely trying to impress the Salt Lake
City office.
Mr. Matthews. In other words, that statement was false, was it
not?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
]\Ir. Maithews. On page 4 of the report dated September 19th
Mr. Masaoka. Of last year?
Mr. IMatthews. Yes, naturally — you say [reading] :
I'm afraid that we can't do much about the gas rationing restrictions. After
all, tliou.sh the War Relocation Authority might like us, they can't pingle us out
for special favors which might bring investigations upon them regarding the
Jap pressure group wiiich dictates their policies.
Now, who was the Jap pressure group wdiich dictated the polices of
theW. R. A.?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall having written that, but I must have.
Mr. Matthews. Well !
Mr. Masaoka. As I say, I must have.
Mr Matthews. Oh !
Mr. Masaoka. I would like to know, as a matter of form, just what
we are all driving at so that I can answer it in terms of that nature
9552 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
instead of one question here and there. I have so many people here
asking me questions at raiidom that it is difficult for me to keep a
clear thought on it, and I request you gentlemen, if at all possible, to
tell me what you are driving at, what you are seeking for, and try to
make it as logical and follow-up as possible. I think that is only-
fair to me.
Mr. CosTELLO. We are trying to determine what your relationship
with the W. R. A. was as the representative of the J. A. C. L. ; to what
extent, possibly, J. A. C L. might have dictated, as was indicated
in your statement, the policies of W. R. A., if they were dictated to by
any outside groups.
Mr. Masaoka. They were not dictated to.
Mr. CosTELLo. There are numerous statements in here in the various
documents which have been shown to you, all of them written by your-
self, that indicate that you had access to a great deal of information.
A number of times you used the word "confidential" in regard to
directives of W. R. A. The indications seem to be that you were
given secret information that was not being divulged to anyone else;
statements regarding the relationships within the War Department,,
relations between the W. E. A., and various agencies of the Govern-
ment. ' You seem to have a great deal of knowledge concerning those
things; I think far more than any member of Congress might acquire.
Now comes this indication that the W. R. A. is being dictated to by
pressure groups. We are trying to find out by presenting these doc-
uments-— and they are all your own statements, typed up by you —
whether they are true or not, and to what extent you actually did
have access to this confidential information, had knowledge of rifts
between the departments, if it was*going on, or as to policj^, and who
was going to win, and how it was going to be done and, finally,
whether or not you were exerting pressure on W. R. A. as to their
program.
Mr. Masaoka. I can make a general statement, if you wish.
Mr. CosTi-XLO. The reason we are asking you the.se specific ques-
tions one by one is to determine the exact answer to each item, to-
determine to what extent yon really had these influences that are
indicated.
Mr. Masaoka. As far as gas rationing is concerned, some of our
workers in Salt Lake City, in going out investigating sugar beets
and reserves and that, desired additional gas, and they requested that
we talk to the AY. R. A. about the possibility of getting gas rationing"
privileges, but that was never taken up with the W. R. A.
Mr. Matthews. JNIy question did not have so much to do with the
gas-rationing item in here as it did with identifying what you describe
as the Jap pressure group which dictates the policy of the W. R. A.
Did 3^ou have any such group in mind ?
Mr. Masaoka." No.
Mr. Matthews. You meant the J. A. C. L., did you not?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. We like to think that we had considerable
influence. We like to think that.
Mr. CosTELLo. A])parentlv, at the time you wrote that, you thought
3'ou did have influence over W. R. A.
Mr. Masaoka. Not an undue influence.
Mr. CosTELLO. Well, there the statement is used "Dictates the pol-
icy." I think that is pretty definite and rather strong language.
UK-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9553
'Sh. Masaoka. Woll, I often use stronn; Innjrua^re; in fact. T think
if you look at any n;rou]) wliich coo]iorates or attem))ts to work with
ahliost any aoency of the (Jovernnient, you will iind such strong
statements.
Mr. CosTELi.o. I think in a particular instance of this kind, the
furtlu^st you would dare to jro would be that ''We are endeavoring
to exert our inlhience on W, R. A. to have them approve our program."
Here the language used is "Dictates the policy of." Xow, "dictates"
<-an only be intei-preted by the language in which it is used. Unlike
the word "confidential," Ido not think you can disclaim that it means
"exaggeration." You use the w^ord "dictates" in relation to an alto-
gether new program, so the word "dictates" is a very strong word,
and I think it only has one connotation, that Jap pressure groups are
employed to dictate the program of W. R. A. I do not know how
you can Dut any other interpretation on that language.
Mr. Masaoka. If we were actually dictating the program of
W. K. A., there would be many things done which they are not now
doing. Xow, originally the statements, the attitudes, and our prin-
ciples regarding the entire resettlement and any other evacuation pro-
gram were submitted to the Government. That w^as during the days
that General DeWitt first established his exclusion orders. If we
actually dictated the policies of the W. R. A., then those policies
would have been carried out. In most instances they were not car-
ried out. I think that should be a sufficient answer.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. INIasaoka, did you attend a conference some-
time about the middle of September 1942, which was also attended
by Mr. Myer and Mr. Glick and Roger Baldwin and Dr. Alexander
Meiklejohn (
Mr. !\Iasaoka. Where was the conference held?
]Mr. Matthews. Well, did you attend such a conference where those
l^ersons were present?
Mr. Masaoka. I recall there was such a person.
Mr. Matthews. AYell, you know where it was held then, or do you
I'ecall ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think it was held there, but I don't know for
sure. It may have been held in Xew York.
Mr. Mattheavs. On page 14 of your report dated September 19,
1942, 1 read as follows :
An interesting side light of weeli end and one which must be kept on the q. t.
is the nieetin;: attended by Myer and Glick, tlie two top men in the Wai
Relocation Authority, a special i-epresentative of the .Justice Department, Roger
Baldwin and Dr. Alexander Meiklejohn of the A. C. L. U., and me.
Who was the special representative of the Justice Department who
was with you on tliat occasion?
Mr. Masaoka. 1 don't recall the name. I think he was a friend of
Mr. Meiklejohn.
]\rr. Matthews. You do not know whether that would have been
Mr. Ennis or not ?
]\Ir. ISIatthews. It was not Mr. Ennis.
Mr. Stripling. AVell. did Mr. McWilliams?
IMr. Masaoka. Xo; I don't believe so.
Mr. jNIatthews. At whose behest was this conference called?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall.
9554 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Why did you advise keeping this meeting on the
q. t.?
Mr. Masaoka. What was the meeting about? There were a num-
ber of conferences.
Mr. Matthews. Oh, you had a number of conferences with those
same individuals?
Mr. Masaoka. Perhaps not, but we had a nuiliber of conferences
with Mr. Baldwin and others.
Mr. Matthews. With Mr. Glick and Mr. Myer and Mr. Meiklejohn ?
Mr. Masaoka. They may have been at some of those.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you have a number of conferences at which those
same j)ersons were present ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe so ; I am not quite sure.
Mr. CosTELLo. In other words, Mr. Myer, Mr. Meiklejohn, Mr.
Glick, and yourself conferred on more than one occasion regarding
W.R. A. policies?
Mr. Masaoka. It is quite possible.
Mr. CosTELLO. I do not care whether it was possible, but did you
have more than one meeting with those same persons ?
Mr. Masaoka. To my knowledge.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you call the conference?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. MuNDT. Who invited you to attend ?
Mr. Masaoka. Charlie, I was there. I asked if I could go in.
Mr. CosTELLO. You requested that you might go in ?
Mr. Masaoka. Generally; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. How did you hear about the conferences ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I contacted Mr. Baldwin and the others.
When Mr. Baldwin comes into town from New York he calls on me
and I ask him what he is doing. If he is going to see Mr. Myer or
somebody else, I ask him if I can go along with him.
Mr. Matthews. At this conference did Mr. Myer and Mr. Baldwin
both agree that you were the key man in the United States on this
question of Japanese Centers ?
Mr. Masaoka. They may be a little boasting.
Mr. Matthews. A little boasting. You did write that though ; did
you not?
]Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Further, in describing this conference, you wrote —
referring to Roger Baldwin now [reading] :
He came over hot and bothered from a tangle with the Post OflSce Department
about a cancelation of a small newspaper's mailing privileges, and went right
to work on the Government boys. Was I on the spot? Both parties concerned
knew who had put those questions in Roger's mouth.
What was this small newspaper whose mailing privileges had been
canceled ?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall the name at all. I think that was the
time of the Justice Department — or, rather, the Post Office Depart-
ment denying mailing privileges, you know, to some of these smaller
magazines!
Mr. Matthews. Japanese magazines?
Mr. Masaoka. No. It had no connection with the Japanese.
Mr. Mundt. Axis magazines?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIES 9555
Mv. jMasaoka. No ; I don't believe they were Axis. I don't recall.
Mr. Stiupling. The Police Gazette and others.
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that is it ; Police Gazette and some of these
showy French magazines.
Mr. Matthews. Then you say [reading] :
Roger wondererl how come the War Relocation Authority knew so much about
some of their proposer! moves. Glick and Myer wondered how Baldwin had
such a srasp of tlie War Relocation Authority internal policies. The Justice
guy just had a lot of fun I'efereeing the legal jousts between Baldwin and Glick
and expressing the Justice Department's views. Myer enjoyed most of it. I
felt badly all the way through. But; the new spirit of the War Relocation
Authority was explained in quite some detail to the American Civil Liberties
Union
Mr. INIasaoka. That was the Civil Liberties.
Mr. Matthews [reading] :
boys so the War Relocation Authority can't renig on them. That's one con-
solation in spite of my embarrassment. Another curious thing was that both
the War Relocation Authority and the American Civil Liberties Union thought
that the other was abusing me and 'each was determined to sell to the other
the idea that I was probably the keyman on this situation in this country just
now and that all efforts should be made to save me from embarrassment. The
upshot of it all was that everyone left with considerably greater respect for each
ether and strangely enough, no one held me too much to blame for the con-
fusion. The next day, both Myer and Baldwin congratulated me on the work
which I was doing.
Now, what did all of that refer to ?
Mr. AIasaoka. I am confused, too, frankly.
Mr. Matthews. Did it have anything to do with this newspaper's
mailing privileges?
Mr. ISIasaoka. No. We had all sorts of bull sessions, you know;
just ribbing about things. I am definitely confused about that.
Mr. ]\1atthews. Do you recall when this meeting took place ?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; I don't.
Mr. Matthews. Was it during the day some time, in a Government
office?
Mr. Masaoka. That I couldn't tell you.
IMr. Matthews. Or did you have a meeting at night, of this
character?
Mr. Masaoka. No; no. We often met over dinner tables and
kidded each other about ever3'thing.
INIr. MuxDT. What do you mean by "We," you and Dillon Myer?
Mr. Masaoka. No; Roger Baldwin, particularly.
Mr. Matthews. Well, there was a special representative of the De-
partment of Justice there, though?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, he just happened to be invited or came along
with Dr. Meiklejohn, I suppose. Is there any reference to that that
might help unconfuse me?
^Ir. ]\Iatthews. I wonder what it was that so impressed you on this
occasion. Here were both Mr. Baldwin, representing the Civil Lib-
erties,-and Mr. Myer, representing W. K. A.
Mr. Masaoka. That was not the first time I was impressed.
!Mr. Matthews. And both, apparently, arguing with you and abus-
ing you, at least in each other's minds abtising you. You seem to have
been the center of some controversy.
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall it, sir.
9556 UN-AMERICAJS"' PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
JNIr. Stripling. ^Ir. Chairman, here is a point that mi<;ht enlighten
the committee on the importance of Mr. Masaoka. Who is George
Ina<^aki ?
]SIr. Masaoka. George Inagaki was a man who came out with me
in the very beginning.
Mr. Stripling. Was he impressed with your importance and con-
tacts here in Washington ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think he was.
Mr. Stripling. On September 30, 1942, he wrote you :
Dear Mike : Received your wire concerning new War Relocation Authority
directive. Soiinds good. However, I'm wondering how it actually works. Will
it mean that very many more will be able to get out? They still must (jbtain
the O. K. of the W. R. A. which requires a number of qualitications, practically
the same as before * * * Qj. .^j-g fjjg qualifications to be relaxed a great
deal? No doiibt, if I wait a day or so the explanations will be announced. At
this moment those are the thoughts that come to my mind.
Is Mrs. Roosevelt's hand in the back of this latest move on the part of the
W. R. A. ? Or did Myer figure it out by himself?
Mr. Masaoka. After all, gentlemen, you have the records. I can't
remember as well as the records. Now, draw your own conclusion.
Mr. Ccstello. Was that the reason why you typed so much of this
information ; that you forgot it and, therefore, you put it in typing
so that you would have the information available for future use?
Mr. Masaoka. Not necessarily.
Mr. CosTELLO. Or was it a. lapse of memory that caused you to type
down in detail so much of this?
Mr. Masaoka. Oh, I used to love to write.
Captain Hall. Mr, Cliairman, may I make a suggestion at this
point?
Mr. CosTFLLO. Yes, Captain.
Captain Hall. There have appeared before this committee this
afternoon several references to a rift within the War Department,
between the civilian and military. It appears, I think, in a letter that
Mr. Masaoka wrote.
I was in a positiqn throughout this period to become familiar with
this entire picture, and so far as I was concerned — and I was in a
position to know — no such rift ever did arise.
For the benefit of the press, and for the benefit of this committee,
I thought I should bring that to your attention at this time, with
the suggestion that if you wish testimony from somebody in authority
in the War Department, it might be a good idea to procure such
testimony in order to correct any misunderstanding or wrong impres-
sion that might arise from what appeared in Mr. Masaoka's letter.
Mr. Masaoka. You recall on that particular thing, I said that I
had heard.
INIr. CosTELLO. For the purpose of the record, you might give your
full name and your position so that the record will be clear.
Captain Hall. Capt. John M. Hall, in the office of the Assistant
Secretary of AVar.
Mr. CoSTELLo. You suggest. Captain, if we desire to have some wit-
ness from the War Department in this connection, we might con-
tact the Under Secretary of War?
Captain Hall. Or the Assistant Secretary. I want to point out
also in that connection that at a press conference some 2 weeks ago
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9557
tile Secretary of War said that any rumors in connection with such
a rift as has been ])orti-aye(l here was, and I think I am quoting him
accurately, complete nonsense.
Mr. MuNDT. May I ask, Captain, whether, to j^our knowledge and
through your observation. Mr. Masaoka has ever called on Assistant
Secret ar}- of "War jNIcCloy?
Captain Hall. He has.
Mr. MuxDT. He has?
Captain Hall. Right.
ISIr. EnERnARTER. There was discussion, of course, between the War
Department and the W. R. A. officials; discussion in relation to the
handling of the Japanese relocation centers and the release of these
Japanese, was there not?
Captain Hall. There were innumerable discussions on that.
Mr. Eberharter. They did not always agree, in the first instance,
as to how the problem should be solved ?
Captain Hall. Well, there were innumerable conferences on the
whole question. It is a part that atfects the military security of
the country. That part is the War Department's interest in the
country.
]Mr. MuNDT.'Certainly. If a definite policy had been decided upon
at the very beginning, there would not have been need for innumer-
able discussions.
Captain Hall. No; I won't say that was correct. I think the in-
numerable discussions were very important and very necessary, as
the progress of life in these relocation centers was constantly changed.
It requires constant attention. There were always new problems
arising.
Mr. ^NIuxDT. Thank you very much. Captain.
;Mr. ^Matthews. Mr. Masaoka, did you have frequent conferences
with Roger Baldwin?
]Mr. ^Iasaoka. Yes.
]\lr. ^Matthews. How often woidd you say you met Mr. Baldwin ?
Mr. Masaoka. When I was in the East, at least twice a month.
Mr, Matthews. Did those meetings take place in Washington or
in Xew York or in ])oth places?
Mr. Masaoka. Both places.
Mr. Matthews. Did you make any special trips to New York to
see Mr. Baldwin?
Mr. AFasaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Did he make special trips to Washington to see
you ?
'Mi: Masaoka. I don't believe I was that important in his scheme
of things, but if he came down here he usually told me about his
trip here.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Baldwin is the director of the American Civil
Liberties Union?
]Mr. ^Masaoka. Yes.
]\Ir. ^Matthews. Could you describe the interest of the American
CiA-il Liberties Union in your particular organization?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. The American Civil Liberties Union, as I
see it, is dedicated to preserving as near as possible the civil liberties
of all groups, regardless of their racial ancestry, in time of war as
9558 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
in time of peace. They are dedicated to protect, as much as possible,
the legitimate civil rights of every individual within the United
States. They felt that the evacuation was unconstitutional. They
felt that the treatment which we were receiving was not as good as it
should be. They felt that they had an interest, as Americans, in
doing everything possible to correct the conditions within the centers
and, if possible, to seek their relations on the outside and back into
normal communities. I believe that will state their interest in the
case although Mr. Roger Baldwin, of course, would be in a better
position to officially and efficiently express the interest of the associa-
tion.
Mr. CosTELLO. Has the American Civil Liberties Union today volun-
teered their services and help to you as the Japanese American
Citizens League ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did they volunteer to you ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLo. You did not go to them and contact them ?
Mr. Masaoka. It was a case of both of them; in other words, we
had some contacts with them on the Pacific coast, and when I came
here, naturally, I called upon them.
Mr. CosTELLO. Had the Japanese American Citizens League had
contact with the American Civil Liberties Union prior to the evacua-
tion period ?
Mr. Masaoka. Only with local officers situated on the Pacific coast.
Mr. CosTELLO. At the time of the evacuation, and from then on, the
American Civil Liberties Union took an active part and interest in
what was being done to the Japanese group ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. Was it Mr. Wirin, the representative of the Amer-
ican Civil Liberties Union on the Pacific coast, that you dealt with ?
Mr. Masaoka. He is one of them; yes.
Mr. Matthew^s. Mr. Abraham Lincoln Wirin?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. He, at the present time, happens to be our
counsel,
Mr. Matthews. Whose counsel ?
Mr. Masaoka. The Japanese American Citizens League counsel.
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Wirin is now counsel for the Japanese Amer-
ican" Citizens League ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir. He represented us in the Reagan case
and the cases before the Supreme Court.
Mr. Matthews. In this letter which you sent to national headquar-
ters staff on September 11, 1942
Mr. Masaoka. That was before we had contacted Wirin or known
him so well personally.
Mr. Matthews. You wrote as follows:
I have just seen Roger Baldwin and he showed me a number of confidential
letters.
Did he show you some confidential letters ?
Mr. Masaoka. He may have.
Mr. Matthews. The letter further states :
One of them was from Dr. Lamb of the Tolan committee which expressed great
concern over the Fascist elements in the relocation centers —
UN-AMERIC.\X PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9559
What was the nature of those Fascist elements in the relocation
•centers?
Mr. Masaoka. I realh' don't recall.
Mr. Matthews. Were they Japanese Fascist elements ?
Mr. Masaoka. I presume so.
Mr. Matthews. Is that what you were referring to?
Mr. Masaoka. I presume that was what he was referring to.
Mr. Matthews. Well, you wrote the letter, did you not?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; but that was, after all, in September of last
year, I can't remember everything.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Masaoka, was it a part of the policy of the
Japanese American Citizens League, or of you personally, that -the
communities into which evacuees were distributed, should not be
notified that these evacuees were going into them?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, we had no policy on the matter. Generally,
it was left up to the W. R. A.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether it was the W. R. A. policy to
withhold such information?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know. It was understood that it was con-
sidered before a person was released that he had some sort of
community acceptance.
Mr. Mundt. Yes; I know that. I was just wondering whether
they were trying to withhold from these communities that these
€vacuees were entering the community.
Mr. Masaoka. Not that I know of.
Mr. MuNDT. On October 9, 1942, Joe — and I imagine that is Joe Ka-
nazawa — wrote you a letter. I will quote one paragraph of it.
Here is something ratlier serious. It seems that one of the center papers
printed the fact that Mrs. Icljes is looliing for Nisei help, and the news got
out. Mr. Iclves didn't lilie that, and Mr. Holland said it put hira in an em-
barrassing spot the other day when he met the Secretary. Naturally, Mr.
Holland was displeased and asked us to be more careful. Of course, he knows
that we weren't responsible, but asked that we try and do something about
keeping a better blanket over such matters that are best not publicized.
That would appear to indicate that the W. R. A. felt it best not
to publicize the fact that these evacuees were going into private
employment in specific localities.
Mr. Masaoka. I think Mr. INIyer or someone from the W. R. A.
can answer that, as to their policy.
Mr. MuNDT. You do not know what their policy was, then?
INIr. Masaoka. As I say, I presume in accordance with their regu-
lations, that somii sort of community acceptance was required. On the
other hand, I believe and I think that it is a wise move not to publish
to everybody that persons of Japanese ancestry are coming into a com-
munity, for the simple reason that the great majority of American
people still have a wrong impression concerning the Japanese people.
We still have race baiters ; we still have people who take advantage of
it.
Mr. MuNDT. You think it would help the Japanese themselves if
it were publicized along witli the statement that these Japanese
were investigated and that their loyalty was unquestioned and should
be accepted the same as any other racial group?
Mr. Masaoka. That may have helped.
9560 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, CosTELLO. Actually, do you not feel that this matter of secrecy,
regarding the fact that Japanese were brought into a community,
might be detrimental; the connnunity suddenly realizing that they
had some Japanese people living in their midsts somewhere and
wondering where they might have originated? Do you not think
they would be more inclined to stir up that antagonism or feeling if
they did that secretly ?
Mr. Masagka. I don't believe there was that secrecy that certain
people have attributed to the program. In one or two instances in
the case of secrecy, I guess, yes.
Mr. Mundt. Do you see any reason for secrecy as to Japanese
people working for Mr. Ickes rather than for anybody else ?
Mr. Masagka. No, sir ; I can't.
Mr. Mundt. Neither can I.
Mr. Matthews. Did you receive a letter from Washington head-
quarters addressed to you in New York on October 13, 1942?
Mr. Masaoka. I may have.
Mr. Matthews. Was that letter from Joe Kanazawa, as far as you
can tell?
INIr. INIasaoka. Yes ; I would believe so. Let me see ; what date is
that ? Yes ; it probably was.
Mr. INIatthews. I read you from this letter the third paragraph of
the first page :
Re Ickes • It was not Ickes at all, but Wickard who was irked by undue pub-
licit}'. Japanese American Citizens League is absolutely clear on this matter,
as it seems that the War Relocation Authority regional office let the news slip
out, just as reported in Pacific Citizen. San Francisco Chronicle headline read
something like "Wickard seeks to employ Japs," or words to that effect. This
was one of those things and unfortunate, and I am sure Myer and Rowalt are
doing sometliing about it on the west coast. Holland, of course, wants such
news soft-pedalled and the less publicity the better, as far as he is concerned.
That was all he said about my 'eading remark about a voluntary censorship.
When I mentioned the latter to Provinse, he opposed it on tlie ground that if the
newspapers outside and tlie anti-Japanese groups learned of sucli voluntary
censorship, they would want to know what was being censored. Catcli? That
is, if we ran editorials or urged the center papers to censor themselves voluntarily.
Of coarse, if we can do it in an indirect way without breaking into print, that
would be all right. Anyway, it is necessary that for the sake of public relations
the newspapers and publicity departments of the centers take a long-range view
and censor such matter as would bring criticism upon tlie War Relocation Auth-
ority program. Such as the Wickard publicity, which was so unfortunate.
Don't know just what Wickard plans but I am told that he sort of laughed it off
and he may hire Nisei for his farm after all. I hope he does.
Do you recall hfiving received that from Joe Kanazawa?
Mr. Masagka. Yes; I recall that.
Mr. MATTHEA^'S. Now, with respect to that
Mr. Masaoka. Is there a point to that ?
Mr. Matthews. Well, the point has to do with the questioning by
Congressman Mundt concerning the policy of suppression of news
in regard to those who were resettled. Your position here was that
there should be secrecy, or a voluntary censorship.
Mr. Masaoka. May I explain this voluntary censorship? This may
seem very trivial to the committee, but many of the newspapermen
in the centers forget that the center papers are distributed on the out-
side as well as in the centers.
To cite one example. In one case, I believe it was in one of the Idaho
centers, the chief of police requested that the young men and young
UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9561
women do not use the latrines for such and such an art, for their ren-
dezvous, which is natural. You know, after all, they are in centers.
He requested that, and the center paper played it over the headlines,
you see.
Now, certain (groups on the outside got the paper, misunderstood
that, and beixan the baH rolling that we had illegitimacy in the centers
and it all hai)pened in these latrines.
jNIr. MiTMxr. 1 api)reciate the situation. Sometimes even legitimate
papers make a mistake.
5lr. Masaoka. So nothing was done in connection with the volun-
tary censorship. It was just an idea that he had.
Mr. INIatthews. But there were individuals, you say, who were irked
over undue publicity.
Mv. jNIasaoka. That is, individuals ; yes.
Mr. Matthews. Regarding their application for Japanese to come
to them out of the relocation centers.
^Ir. JNIasaoka. In other words, certain people felt it was their own
private business whether they hired Americans of Japanese ancestry
or not. After all, they would be paid by the individual, but the
individual himself was responsible for his actions. He did not want it
2)araded to the high skies of publicizing it.
Xow, I can appreciate it, as I think of it — well, I don't know Secre-
tary Ickes' viewpoint, but people might say if he publicized it, that
he was trying to show off, or something of that sort, and therefore he
wanted to do it quietly.
Air. Mattheavs. With respect to the employment of Japanese from
the relocation centers, do you have any apprehension lest those persons
be induced to accept employment at an exploitation wage, in order
to get out of the relocation centers?
Mr. Masaoka. We have made representations from time to time
that under no circumstances should persons of Japanese ancestry be
exjDloited. After all, exploitation of any group is bad, not only for
the war effort, but for the country's long-time thinking. Once we
crush any group, whether they be Japanese, Mexicans, or anyone else,
we render that group valueless to the unity which America needs to
win the war. If persons of Japanese ancestry are going out to be re-
settled and given exploitation wages, or work they can neither do or
replace other persons, that is a dangerous program and one which
we never advocated.
Mv. Matthews. Do you feel that the persons employed by Secre-
taries Ickes and Wickard were being underpaid ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that I made some statement to that effect
in connection with one of them.
Mr. INIattiiews. You thought they were being exploited?
Mr. Masaoka. Not that they were being exploitecl, but I said "That
is a heck of a wage for a Cabinet officer to pay," or some such remark.
Mr. MuNDT. \\niat wage did he pay ?
Mr. Mas\oka. I don't know. Here is the difficulty, gentlemen.
With all due respect to Congressman Costello. California does pay
pretty fine wages, especially in comparison with the Midwest and the
far East.
Mr. Matthews. In reference to Secretary Ickes, you stated he was
paying them far below what they would receive on the Pacific coast.
Mr. Masaoka. I believe I did make some such remark.
9562 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. Well, you did, did you not?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; I made some remark of that nature. I be-
lieve that has been adjusted now. It is my understanding that the
W. R. A. through the Release Division, checks upon the wage which
they are to receive, and if that wage is below the minimum wage set
by the employment office, that they are not released. That is my un-
derstanding.
Mr. Steipling. Mr. Chairman, I think that this section of the re-
port should go in at that point, in connection with the matter of the
report of October 7, 1942, page 12.
Holland has been able to interest a number of Cabinet officials and their
wives in employing Japanese Americans. Secretary of Agriculture Wickard
has just hired two Nisei farmers. Mrs. Ickes, wife of Secretary of the Interior,
wants three farm workei-s and one general house worker. In every case like
this, it is important that only excellent representative people who can sell
themselves be hired. That is why I wired national headquarters in Salt Lake
City to suggest three people who might be acceptable to Mrs. Ickes. Although
the pay is not great, usually being far below what they may have received on
the Pacific coast, it seems to me that each of these are wonderful opportunities
for our girls and fellows to make important contacts. If these preliminary
workers turn out well, other Cabinet officers will follow suit. This is one of the
best chances that we have ever had to do some real public relations work in a
vital, personal way so I am coiuiting on the Salt Lake City group to come through
on this as well as other such requests as we may telegraph in to them.
Did you discuss such a program with ISIr. Holland of interesting^
his GoA^ernment officials in obtaining Japanese evacuees?
Mr. Masaoka. I think that was his own idea.
May I say this for the record? We believe in a program of dis-
persal for American citizens of Janpanese ancestry. We do not
believe that they should be concentrated as they were on the Pacific
coast area. We believe that is dangerous, especially for a small
minority group which, because of certain physical characteristics, can
be easily di'stinguished, and which is the subject of race prejudice. I
believe when the American people get to know these Americans of
Japanese ancestry, know who they really are and what they really
want, that we will be able to get along and become more assimiliated..
We believe if we can get to know the American people and when
the American people can get to know us, this Japanese-American
problem, so-called, will solve itself. As the first generation passes
away and as the second generation come and are segregated and
scattered around the United States, they cannot constitute a danger-
ous menace, because of segregation or concentration of any part;
therefore, we have always stood for a program of dispersal. I believe
that is the American way to handle that problem.
Mr. Matthews.- A moment ago I was asking Mr. Masaoka about
confidential letters shown him by Roger Baldwin. I asked him about
one of them, as he described it, a letter of Dr. Lamb of the Tolan
committee
Then, you said another confidential letter was from the Justice
Department which suggested that neither the F. B. I. nor the Army
nor Naval Intelligence desired the evacuation, but that some powerful
west coast elements relayed the matter. Did Roger Baldwin show you
such confidential communication from the Justice Department?
Mr. Masaoka. He may have.
Mr. Matthews. Well, you surely would recall it if he had.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9563
]Mr. ^Masaoka. I have seen numerous letters to that effect.
Mr. M'attheavs. From the Justice Department?
Mr. Masaoiva. Not from the Justice Department; from various
groups.
Mr. ^Matthews. Do you recall who signed this particular memo-
randum from the Justice Department?
JNIr. ]\Iasaoka. No, sir.
Mr. Matthews. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. IMay I ask that all these reports and letters referred
to today be received as exhibits for the record?
Mr. CosTELLO. The}^ will be received as exhibits and made a part of
the record.
Mr. Stripling. That is right.
Mr. Costello. The committee is going to stand in recess at this
time, and I might state, Mr. INIasaoka, that you will, be subject to
appearance before the committee and I will ask that you return here
on Tiiesdnj' morning under the same subpena. The, committee, in all
likelihood, will meet Monday morning at 10 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 4 p. m., July 3, 1943, an adjournment was taken
to Tuesday, July 6, 1943, at 10:30 a. m.)
INVESTIGATION OF UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
TUESDAY, JULY 6, 1943
House of Representatives,
subcommitiee of the special committee
To In\tstigate Un-Amekican Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met at 10: 30 a. m. in room 1301, House Office
Building, the Honorable John M. Costello, chairman of the subcom-
mittee, presiding.
Present : Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, and Hon.
Herman P. Eberharter.
Also present : Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator, and J. B.
Matthews, director of research for the committee.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order. Mr. Stripling, will
you proceed with the witness ?
TESTIMONY OF MIKE MASAOKA— EecaUed
Mr. Masaoka. May I apologize for being late, which is due to the
trains these days?
Mr. Costello. Schedj.iles no doubt are being disarranged. It is not
necessary for you to be sworn again. You were sworn on Saturday,
and you are still under oath.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Masaoka, when the committee was last in session
you were asked if you ever received from the War Relocation Author-
ity its directives and administrative orders. As I recall your testi-
mony, you stated that you had not.
Mr. Masaoka. I had. I think Mr. Kanazawa received most of them,
however.
Mr, Stripling. Did you ever personally receive any of them
yourself ?
Mr. Masaoka. I may have, through the mails.
Mr. Stripling. You are familiar with the directives which Mr.
Kanazawa obtained; are you not?
Mr. Masaoiwv. With most of tiiem; 3^es, sir.
INIr. Costello. Speak a little louder so that we can hear up here.
!Mr. Masaoka. I am sorry, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, h6re are two folders which contain
administrative instructions of the War Relocation Authority and
which were in the files of the Japanese American Citizens League
when the subpena duces tecum was served on the custodian of those
records. It appears that it is a complete file of all of the administra-
9565
62626 — 43— VOL 1e
9566 TJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
tive instructions, even instructions, which I am sure, the Japanese
American Citizens League or no outsider would be interested in.
For instance, Administrative Instruction No. 15, supplement 1, dated
February 4, 1943, deals with the handling and safekeeping of restricted
and confidential and secret documents w^ithin the W. R. A.
The next Administrative Instruction No. 21, supplement 1, deals
with the purchases from Army depot and market centers. .
Now, Mr. Masaoka, naturally the J. A. C. L. would not be in-
terested in those types of directives. Did you receive copies of all
directives from the W. K. A. which they issued to their staff ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I wouldn't know whether we received them
all.
Mr. Stripling. Did the J. A. C. L. buy this folder, or was this fur-
nished to you also ?
Mr. Masaoka. That is the first time I have seen the folder.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in the other folder, under the head-
ing of "War Relocation Authority No. 31," it states: "For the use
of the W. R. A. staff only. Not for publication." This particular
one is dated January 9, 1943, and in the corner is the notation, in
pencil "Joe K." I assume that refers to Mr. Joe Kanazawa.
Also, the next directive, No. 33, states : "For the use of the W. R. A.
staff only."
Can you explain to the committee, Mr. Masaoka, how Mr. Kana-
zawa or you came into possession of interoffice communications which
were apparently confidential in their nature ?
Mr. Masaoka. You see, I left Washington in the middle of No-
vember and I did not return until May, I believe is correct. The in-
terim period was taken care of by Mr. Kanazawa.
Mr. MuNDT. When did you leave, Mr. Masaoka ?
Mr. Masaoka. I left about the middle of I^Tovember, I believe, for
Salt Lake City, and I remained there — I got married, in fact, and
I remained there until the fore part of ]\Iay of this year.
Mr. MuNDT. From about November?
INIr, Masaoka. If my memory serves me correctly.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should be cleared
up in this regard, because Joe Kanazawa testified, you will recall,
that the W. R. A. was providing him and the J. A. C. L. with strictly
confidential office files, at which time I said, in my opinion, that was
the most amazing testimony we had before this committee as yet;
utterly unjustified and indefensible, not only as to the J. A. C. L.,
but any other group for Government offices to broadcast the informa-
tion to this organization and it being denied to the newspapers.
Then we ask Mr. Masaoka, and he states to his knowledge no such
confidential files had been received, and he says he left there in No-
vember. I notice that these confidential reports, which are confi-
dential and are marked "Not for publication" and were so marked
by the Office of War Relocation Authority, came in the early part
of 1943, so there is a conflict in tlie testimony between Mr. Masaoka,
who says they did not arrive while he was there, and ]\Ir. Kanazawa,
who says that they did. Mrs. Kanazawa says she was greatly dis-
turbed that any governmental agency should give that highly con-
fidential information out for their files. The files are here and the
records so show.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9567
Mr. CosTfXLO. Did you return to Washington subsequently?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; the fore part of May, 'I believe.
Mr. CosTELLo. How long did you remain here then?
Mr. Masaoka. Until I was called into the Army. That would be
the latter part of May.
Mr. Matthews. After your return to Washington, you wrote re-
ports to the national headquarters of the J. A. C. L. stating that you
were receiving these confidential directives from the W. R. A., and
Mr. Kanazawa testified that he had WTitten those reports at your
dictation.
Mr. Masaoka. After.
Mr. MattheW' s. After your return. Yes ; there is a late one.
Mr. Masaoka. I did not personally receive any of the reports.
Mr. I^Iatthews. And what you wrote in your report to national
headquarters fits in with what happened while you were gone.
Mr. Masaoka. May I make this statement for the record? These
reports were not written day by day. These reports were lumped,
or a summary of what I remembered. I did not keep accurate spe-
cific dates and notes and everything else at the end of the w^eek, or
whenever I happened to write them. Much of it comes from memory.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. ]\Iasaoka, did you ever submit to Mr. Dillon
Mj^er, the Director of the War Relocation Authority, a memorandum
on segregation?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe I did.
Mr. Stripling. What w^as the essence of your memorandum?
Mr. INIasaoka. I don't recall it technically. I recall that I did send
him one on segregation.
Mr. Stripling. In your letter of January 14, 1943, you said :
I have just sent air mail, special delivery, a confidential memorandum to
Myer regarding segregation. It is somewhat late, but in view of the circum-
stances it could not be helped.
Does that refresh your memory as to wdiat you might have written
to Mr. Myer on the question of segregation, and why you say it was
confidential ?
Mr. Masaoka. Why it was necessary or desirable, of course, I think
is readil}^ understood. We have always stood for some sort of segre-
gation, provided it was not done on an arbitrary, mechanical basis;
on an individual basis, where suitable hearings and investigations are
taken, I tliink segregation is possible and desirable. I think it was
along something of that line.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Myer request the memorandum?
Mr. Masaoka. I am not sure.
Mr. Srtipling. Mr. Masaoka, did you personally conduct a so-
called lol)by against the Stewart bill, which was introduced by Sen-
ator Stewart?
Mr. Masaoka. "Lobby" is not quite the word. I would have, quite
naturally, liked to see its defeat.
Mr. Stripling. AVas it a campaign ?
Mr. Masaoka. Campaign or drive.
Mr. Stripling. What is the status of the Stewart bill?
Mr. Masaoka. I do not know at the present time.
Mr. Stripling. Did it ever pass?
9568 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIE'S
Mr. Masaoka. No, sir. I think it was defeated last year and then
reintroduced this year and it was referred to the committee, so far as
I know.
Mr. Stripling. During the course of your campaign did you re-
ceive the assistance of any Government officials in defeating the bill ?
Mr. Masaoka. 'Naturally we took it up with a number of Govern-
ment officials.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall who they were ?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; I do not.
Mr. SiRiPLiNG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer to Mr. Masa-
oka's report of June 27, 1942, which states :
Re Stewart bill : Confidentially, and not for publication as yet, but I think
that we've either defeated the bill outright or have caused its postponement
sufficiently long for our friends to marshal their forces for its ultimate defeat.
Frankly, I'm quite proud of the speed with which we were able to whip up
enougli s;piiriment to bring about this change in attitude, for when Senator Mur-
dock called me on the matter, he .and many others were conceding its passage
wilhhi the week. Because I think you're interested in the programs which we
carried out, I'll take the time to outline it briefly, but this is not for print, as it
may get us into a lot of trouble, for many persons involved did so as individuals
and not as officials of the Government.
Do you recall who you referred to there as "individuals" ?
Mr. Masaoka. No; I do not. However, I would like to make this
statement. I have never heard it said that it was un-American or un-
democratic to attempt through legitimate means to defeat or to cause
to be defeated, any bill, particularly biHs such as the Stewart bill,
which I believe is un-American.
Mr. Striplikg. The committee is simply seeking to identify people;
Government officials, Mr. Masaoka.
Mr. Masaoka. I wish to say for the record, however, that we do not
concede that it is un-American or anything of the sort.
Mr. Costello. Why all the reference to this particular statement
as to keeping it quiet and not letting it get out, if there was nothing
liarmful in the activities than the J. A. C. L. was conducting?
Mr. Masaoka. It was not keeping it quiet and not letting it get out.
It was simply for the home office.
Mr. Costello. You were keeping your activities quiet as far as the
public was concerned; that there should be no notification as far as
tlie J. A. C. L. was concerned and as to what they were doing in their
effort to defeat this legislation.
Mr. Masaoka. In this particular bill and particular bills of this
sort, when persons of Japanese ancestry are, shall we say, on the spot,
it is more effective if we can get others to carry the ball for us, so to
speak. • .
Mr. Costello. That is true, and the best way for Communists to
get legislation through is not for them to do it themselves, but to get
others to do it for them.
Mr. Masaoka.. You are not indicting us for being Communists?
Mr. Costello. Well, I just say that is the method used by the Com-
munists; the method you have used.
Mr. Masaoka. It is the method used by all groups and any colleges
and elsewhere; in fact, that was the procedure, if I may use the
American technique.
XJN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9569
Mr. CosTELLO. If there is nothing secretive about it, then there
should be no fear on your part about bringing your efforts out in
the open as to how you felt about the legislation.
Mr. Masaoka. We told the public about it and exactly as we told
the newsi:)apers about it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Your statement that was read to you indicated the
very opposite. You did not want to let the public know what was
going on. Proceed.
Mr. Stripling. The report further states, Mr. Chairman [reading] :
I remained in Washington to see Eoger Baldwin, national director of the
American Civil Liberties Union, about this matter. Fortunately, he had two
of his national committee with him, Dr. Arthur Garfield Hayes, grandson of
President Hayes, and Alexander Meiklejohn, the famous author and writer of
political thought and trends. We discussed this matter at great length and then
went up in a body to see Mr. Victor Rotnem, Chief of the Civil Rights Section
of the Department of Justice. After considerable discussion, Rotnem agreed to
make a plea to Attorney General Biddle to personally intervene. Next, I called
on .Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Harlan F. Stone and presented the matter
to him informally and unofBcially. Because of his position, he could not do
anything ofhcially but he did say that he would send someone over to discuss
this matter with the Department of Justice and Stewart. He seemed quite
interested in the entire question of citizenship and civil rights for the Japanese
Americans, but more on thi§ later. I then went to confer with Clarence W.
Pickett, of the American Friends Service Committee, and mapped out with him
a campaign which his group might carry on to defeat this bill. Then, up to
Senator Thomas" office, but as the good Senator was busy on the Work Projects
Administration bill, I spent the time with the office secretaries. Next, over to
see Glick, solicitor, and Myer, Director of the War Relocation Authority, to
arouse them as to what might happen in the centers if this bill should go
through and what would hqjppen to their program. They became very inter-
ested and agreed to see the President, the Attorney General, the Secretaries of
War and Agriculture, and try to get them to personally oppose its passage.
Did you see Mr. Glick and Mr. Myer?
Mr. Masaoka. To the best of my remembrance ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did they go to see the President, the Attorney
General, the Secretary of War, and the Secretary of Agriculture?
Mr. Masaoka. That I don't know.
Mr. ISIatthews. Did Arthur Garfield Hays identify himself to you
as the grandson of President Rutherford B. Hayes?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; that was my own guess. I believe someone else
mentioned it to me.
Mr. INIatthews, You know that Arthur Garfield Hays spells his
name Hays and the President's name was not spelled that way.
Mr. Masaoka. That is the first time it has been" called to my atten-
tion.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Ennis of the Department of Justice ever
tell you that he had written a letter for the Attorney General's sig-
nature protesting 'to the Senate committee on Immigration and
Naturalization the Stewart bill ?
Mr. Masaoka. He may have.
Mr. Stripling. What features of the Stewart bill were there that
aroused Mr. Myer and Mr. Glick as they affected the War Relocation
Authority ?
Mr. Masaoka. The general features of the thing. The spirit of the
Stewart bill, I think, is contradictory to the best tenets of American
faith and the doctrines of democracy.
9570 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Masaoka, is the program of the Japanese
American Citizens League limited, in general, to the walfare and
interests of the Nisei?
Mr. Masaoka. In general, yes; but we have gone outside of that
scope. For example, we have intervened on behalf of our parents
from time to time. Generally, I think those two are the considera-
tions.
Mr. SxEirLiNG. Well, have you ever drawn up a program of
J. A. C. L. objectives for the Issei?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. The Japanese nationals.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Well, how would that fit in with your program of
being interested only in Japanese Americans ?
Mr. Masaoka. I would like to state, as I stated Saturday, I believe
it was, that the Japanese and the Japanese Americans in this country
form a peculiar segment of our population, as is well known by Con-
gressman Costello.
Our first generation parent group, through no fault of their own
but because of a naturalization law in this country, are not permitted
to become citizens of the United States. Many of our parents, in
fact, the great majority of them, have been here 30 or 40 years. They
resided here as good citizens and contributed much to the welfare of
this country. We believe that they are good citizens.
Now, because of the peculiar circumstances of immigration, we, the
American citizens of Japanese ancestry, are a particularly young
group, whereas our parents average around approximately 59 or 60
years of age. We, the American citizens, average only about 21,
which means that the great majority of us are still dependent upon
our parents for many things.
Now, our parents stayed here when they could have gone back to
Japan. Our parents raised us here in the United States; had us
attend American schools, American churches, make American friends,
because they intended that we remain here as Americans.
Mr. Stripling. Are you talking now of all of the Japanese ?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; th^ gl"eat majority, I am saying.
Mr. Stripling. You are not speaking of the Kibei, are you?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Mundt. Will you state in about 10 or 15 words what the Stew-
art bill is?
Mr. Eberharter. I think the witness ought to be permitted to finish
his statement. He was making a statement and I think he should be
permitted to finish.
Mr. Masaoka. I said, I believe, we should be tied up with our par-
ents in this particular case. In wartime it seems rather unusual that
loyal Americans shall try to help, shall we say, enemy aliens. The
fact is that these people are our people. If they are willing to have
their sons, for example, join in the armed forces of the United States
and to fight against their own country, then I believe parents of that
nature should be granted the right to become citizens. I thinlv that
is really fair and I think that is really right.
Along other lines I feel that if it can be shown that our parents
are entitled to the status of friendly aliens, well, certainly, they should
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9571
be given that privilege for the simple reason that they are under
greater pressure today than almost any other group. Why? They
cannot like the Germans and Italians and otlier enemy aliens become
citizens of the United States, by no overt acts of their own. They
are prevented by an act of law, the law of the United States. Now, if
tliey are willing to sacrifice again, as I said, their lives and blood,
their own flesh and blood, I think thoy are entitled to the privileges
of good citizens. If they can pass the examination, naturalization
examinations, which are nowadays based upon the record and their
own knowledge, then certainly if they can demonstrate they are good
Americans, I feel they should be granted the privileges of Ameri-
canism.
Now, take my own particular family, for example. They loathe
Japan. They escaped from Japan because of political difficulties.
They came here seeking political asylum. They raised their families
here. Four of us are now in the armed forces of the United States —
pardon me, five of us.
My father has long since passed away, but mother has always in-
sisted that we be good Americans. None of us has ever gone to a
Japanese school. We have all been educated the American way and
all of us are willing to stake our lives on the American way of living.
Now, for such people as my mother and there are thousands of
them, i believe that citizenship or, at least, a friendlj^ alien status,
ought to be granted, and I say that very sincerely, because I know my
mother and I know others like her.
Now, the Congressman had a question on the Stewart bill.
Mr. jNIundt. Yes; since Mr. Stripling brought that question up.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have any idea as to how many Japanese born
in this country were sent back to Japan for their education ; how many
Nisei there would be in that group ?
Mr. Masaoka. I have heard many conflicting figures on that. Per-
sonally I have none of my own. I have made estimates from time to
time, but I don't know how accurate they are.
^Ir. CosTELLO. It is not the custom to send Japanese girls back to
Japan to secure their education, is it ?
^Ir. Masaoka. It is more customary to send men.
Mr. CosTELLO. More customary to send men ?
Mr. jMasaoka. In most families it is considered that the men have a
better chance for making a livelihood. They will support the family
afterward. The wife gets married, and that is about all, unless they
were interested in commerce or for other reasons.
Mr. ]\IuNDT, What would be your best estimate as to the number of
Kibei in this countrj- now ?
Mr. Masaoka. In this country now? About between five and ten
thousand, I would say. But, of course, we have a question of the
definition of '"Kibei" too. If a person simply goes and visits Japan,
I don't think he would be classified as a Kibei, you see.
Mr. Stkipi.txc. How many Japanese in this country, Japanese
Americans, Mr. Masaoka, do you think have attended Japanese lan-
guage schools?
Mr. Masaoka. Oh. I think the great majoritj^ of them have.
Mr. Stripling. The great majority?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; for this simple reason, as a matter of communi-
<}ation, the same thing that other groups did. I think the older the
9572 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
citizens of American Japanese ancestry, the fewer will become the
schools. With the passing of the first generation, the great need for
them, I think, will go.
Another thing I wish to call to your attention is the fact that back
in the twenties, an attempt was made to have Japanese included in
the curriculum of the high schools and colleges of California. I be-
lieve, Mr. Congressman, you recall that, but I believe that it failed.
The tragedy now seems to be that there are not enough people who
speak Japanese; I believe our Military and Naval Intelligence have
difficulty recruiting sufficient numbers.
Those latter might have gone to Japanese schools after attending
American schools. They only attended 1 or 2 hours as against 8 hours.
They really do not learn too much; they are too tired. They do not
learn enough to be qualified as language instructors or even to carry
on a decent conversation. I, for example, have been accused of speak-
ing Japanese worse than the Chinese, and that is the worst thing you
can say about a Japanese, because I throw possibly two Japanese
words together and six English words; in fact, my masterpiece was
when I was able to carry on a conversation for about 10 minutes, and
at that time I really used 7 minutes of English words.
Now, I am not typical, I grant you that, but you take the average
person who has gone through the Japanese language school, he doesn't
know enough to qualify in the field of language.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Masaoka, last week when you appeared before
the committee, you testified that you felt that the F. B. I check was
necessary
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Against the evacuees who are being released for
resettlement. Did you at any time attempt to prevail upon the War
Relocation Authority to eliminate the F. B. I checS?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall that we ever attempted to pre-
vail upon them. I do recall that many times we told the W. R. A.,
and we still insist that the whole procedure should be speeded
up, if possible, because the longer the loyal ones stay in, the more
difficult it becomes for them to resettle themselves later on.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, the report dated October 7, 1942, ad-
dressed to national headquarters, signed "Mike", on page 11 states
[reading] :
Fifth, for the biggest story since evacuation, the latest War Relocation Author-
ity directive on furloughs. Larry and Hito must forgive me for sending the long
instructions by telegraph. I suppose it must have cost a fortune and yet, be-
cause of the importance of the story, I feel justified hi doing so.
I don't know whether you realize it or not, but that directive culminates our
wouk to make these relocation centers refuges and not prisons. This is our first
goal achieved, and while it does not mean that we have no further work to do,
it does mean that we have made our first step back. It should have been car-
ried in large type in the Pacific Citizen and its implications editorialized, but
because we were afraid of what Congressmen like Ford and others might say,
I asked Larry to soft-pedal the whole thing. * * *
In the discussions leading up to this latest order, I argued that even the
Federal Bureau of Investigation clearance should be eliminated, but this was im-
po.ssible both from the public relations and the congressional aspects. As it is,
the Federal Bureau of Investigation will not investigate them as such. If they
do not have any record against them, it is suflicient for the clearance. I think
that this item is a victory for us even if we couldn't win all the battles. This
last item may prove to be the bottleneck in the whole program, however, for
the Federal Bureau of Investigation is very busy with other jobs and doesn't
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIE'S 9573
seem to concentrate on clearing prospective applicants. I am now pushing for
the Federal Bureau of Investigation to turn their lists of those whom they sus-
pect over to the War Relocation Authority and let the War Relocation Authority
check off the nonsuspect names.
Now, back to your language, Mr. Masaoka, in which you stated:
In the discussions leading up to this latest ordei*, I argued that even the
Federal Bureau of Investigation clearance should be eliminated
Mr. Masaoka. Now that you call it to my attention, I remember it.
But, 3'ou will note, you see, the whole procedure, we feel, is slow.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, in order to speed up the procedure
you would be willing for the F. B. I. check to be lifted also ?
Mr. Masaoka. Some check should be made.
Mr. Stripling. Well, what check did you propose here ?
Mr. Masaoka. 1 don't recall.
Mr. Si'RiPLiNG. Well, the F. B. I. was the only check that was being
made and that was only a check against the existing records and not
an investigation, and you expressed disappointment that you were not
successful in lifting that check. So, as early as 1942, October, you
were personally willing for the evacuees to be released, to go anywhere
in the United States, without any check Avhatsoever.
Mr. Masaoka. No, no.
Mr. Stripling. Well, there was no check being made.
Mr. Masaoka. I am quite sure that in the segregation, a matter of
«ome type of check was brought up. To the best of my knowledge,
we have always asked for some type of check, but we have insisted, as
we still do, that the present method of check is a bottleneck ; it is too
i^low; it is too cumbersome.
Mr; Stripling. Further, in this memorandum on the same subject,
you state :
Thus far there has been no loud squawk from the Congressmen or anti-Japs
on this new leave regulations. There have been a number of requests for ex-
planations and implications but no loud or dangerous kicks. We have our fingers
crossed. I guess the boys on Capitol Hill are too busy with the war legislation
now to look at this new order, although I'm afraid of what will happen when
they do. That is why we must not publicize the regulations as something which
put's a real question up to the West coast delegation as to our possible dangerous-
iiess as individual persons.
Mr. Masaoka. The particular reference made is listed in the Fed-
eral Kegister for October ; yes, I think October.
Mr. Stripling. What, did you mean Mr. Masaoka, by the statement
you wore keeping your fingers crossed; that you were afraid what
would happen if certain Congressmen learned about it?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I think, to be very honest and very frank,
we feel that there are certain Congressmen who are prejudiced
against us ; very definitely so. We feel that there are certain interests
that are prejudiced against us. They will use every tactic at their
command to see that we are not released. Now, it is against tliat
particular group that we have alwa3^s been opposed, and we are
afraid of them.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Masaoka, I think I should ask this question, be-
cause I asked it of all previous witnesses of Japanese ancestry, and
I would like to put it to you direct. Will you outline for the com-
mittee at this point just what you would consider to be a sound and
adequate check to be made before an evacuee is released from these
camps?
9574 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. IMasaoka. Well, that is a rather difficult job, because there
are so many factors involved.
Mr. INIuNDT. We want to determine what kind of a check is to be
made. I would like to have your recommendations so that we can
put them side by side with those of Mr. Slocum and other witnesses
and see what your position is.
]Mr. Masaoka. All right. Now, without knowing the latest trend
in the relocation centers and the W. K. A.
Mr. MuNDT. Just assume there is no trend at all. Just begin with'
the evacuation centers and we will start from there.
Mr. Masaoka. There is confusion and remains throughout, but we
will see what we can do with that. In the first place, I think that
persons who have expressed a desire to return to Japan, should be
segregated. I think there can be no question there.
Secondly, I believe the people who have caused trouble, and by
that I mean real trouble over and over again on the subject of being
pro-Ja]^anese, should also be segregated with the people who have
asked for that.
In the matter of Kibei and their parents and the matter of Nisei
and that, I believe a system of individual check which can go back
long beyond the period of evacuation should be carried out, to ana-
lyze the type of organization they belonged to, the type of activity
they participated in, such as the Boy Scouts or some pro-Japanese
group, that I think should be taken into consideration; in other
words, long before that, and then what they did after war was de-
clared and what they did within the relocation centers. All that
should be weighed.
Now, this may seem a little awkward, but I believe if a person
lias received clearance, or is proposed for segregation' on that basis,
I believe he should have a chance for rehearing, because it is very
possible that someone may have been prejudiced in making out a
report, or there may have been some mistake along the line.
Now, while I am not too familiar with the alien hearing boards of
the Department of Justice, I do feel that some body of that sort, pos-
sibly composed of one representative of the Department of Justice,
one representative of the Military Intelligence, one of the Naval In-
telligence, and one of the War Relocation Authority, and possibly
one civilian should sit as a hearing board.
Mr. MuNDT. Would it not be well to add to such- a board one well-
known loyal Japanese in the group?
Mr. Masaoka. The difficulty with that, Congressman, would be
this, and I think you can understand it this way. I, for example,
may know one Japanese very well, or think I do, but only know a
pai't of the aspect of his life. The very fact that I know him well
may prejudice me for him.
Now, I think, as you say, we have to be absolutely safe on this
proposition, and I think that it would be a fairer trial, you see, if
you didn't have a person of Japanese ancestry on that particular
tribunal. I don't know whether that is sound thinking or not.
I, for example, am not a trained investigator. They ask me about
my friend John Jones. Well, I knew him well a' certain part of his
life, but I don't know any other aspects of his life, and if he was
subversive I would probably be the last to recognize it. Now, for
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTTVaTIES 9575
tliat reason, I don't believe a person of Japanese ancestry should be
on that board.
Mr. MuxDT. Go aliead.
;Mr. Masaoka. The difficulty, I thinlv, in the whole procedure, arises
from the fact that certain people that you are dealing with are
American citizens, and I just don't know hoAv to overcome that par-
ticular difficulty. But. I do know that the majority of loyal Amer-
icans of Japanese ancestry want the dangerous elements eliminated,
because it is for their own interest as well as for their own future
interest. The great majority are willing to die; either volunteered
or drafted for this country's- war. Now, that group is going to
serve a worth}^ piirpose in the America to come. I think they have a
contribution to offer, and I think everything ought to be done to keep
that group American in spirit and attitucle and everything else.
Now, the mechanics of segregation, of course, are rather difficult.
I don't know just how they would go about it, but generally I think
the thoughts I have expressed suggest something.
Mr. MuxDT. Well, I think that is quite an interesting point. I
would like to ask you in connection with point 3, individual checks,
where you suggest checking into the background, the activities of
the organizations, and so forth. Would you include in that check a
check of the earlier employers, the pre-war employers of the Jap-
anese? ■
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. INIuNDT. Or the business associates?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
ISIr. MuxDT. You agree with me that it is unfortunate that the
W. R. A. does not make that employer check at this tmie ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think they do, do they not ?
Mr. MuNDT. No; unfortunately they do not. We were advised by
the mayor of Los Angeles and the chief of police of Los Angeles of
some 10 or 15, I have forgotten the number, citizens of Japanese an-
cestry, employees of the city administration, who were put in evacua-
tion camps, and some of them released with no check of any kind
made by any of the officials. It was as surprising to the committee as
it is with you. You will agree with me that it is an unfortunate
precedent at the present time ?
Mr. Masaoka. As I understand the program, before that applied,
the people of Los Angeles could have moved before the W. R. A. took
over, but as I understand the procedure they had to write down the
employment record, did they not, for W. E,. A. ?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Masaoka. And I assumed that it was checked from that.
Mr. MuNDT. We assumed so, too, but unfortunately that was not
the case.
;Mr. CosTELLO. The information further seemed to be that there ap-
peared one or two individuals on the list to be contacted in regard to
his previous record ; that some of the individuals on the list were con-
sulted regarding the person's status, but that the employers were not
consulted.
Mr. Masaoka. I see. I would like to make this observation, how-
ever, that in no investigation should there be a witch hunt ; in other
words, simply becai\se a person happened to belong to one society,
just belonged, and he didn't pay any attention to it.
9576 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Like the Black Dragon Society, for instance?
Mr. Masaoka. No. I don't know much about the Black Dragon
Society. But, for example, a case of pro-American Nisei or maybe
listed on the rolls of some Japanese organization or association.
They may never have gone there. I think you must take into balance
and weigh their association against other associations, and I think
that you can get sincere jDeople, sincere school teachers and religious
folk and those who really know the individual, including the em-
ployer, and that you would get a more satisfactory check than simply
weighing arbitrarily the fact that they belonged to certain organiza-
tions.
Mr. CosTELLo. Do all Japanese organizations put names on the
rolls whether they belong to them or not?
Mr. Masaoka. I think that happens. I was embarrassed at 'one
time when that was done.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is it the custom of Japanese organizations to show
a relatively large number in order to build up a membership list?
Mr. Masaoka. I would like to qualify that. The more I think
about that the more I can see where you were confused about that is-
sue. All the membership in that indicated that it comes up to about
July or so, doesn't it — the membership list; isn't that right, Mr.
Stripling?
Mr, Stripling. April.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, a lot of the fees in that were paid, you say,
late the previous year; maybe as late as September. They never
would carry over for the full year.
I would like to make this statement, and the records will show it, as
people leave the relocation centers, in leaving the relocation centers
they generally don't have sufficient funds to purchase membership.
After all, living on $12 a month is difficult, and it is something like
the Army. The Government, I suppose, would pay everything, but
there are a lot of incidentals. But the people who go out, many of
them have. joined after leaving the relocation centers, after they be-
come resettled. Once they have a job, once they have a home, they do
become members.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I think padding membership rolls is
an indication of good Americanism. It is done generally.
Mr. Masaoka. Mostly.
Mr. Mundt. Including the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce pos-
sibly. Now, you worked through the J. A. C. L., you have told us, for
the best interests of citizens of Japanese ancestry in this country and
the best interests of America. That is the thing that you have claimed
is the purpose of the organization ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Now, on the other side is your ledger. There are others
of Japanese ancestry pulling away.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. That is, other organizations.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. IMuNDT. Will you state for the record as many of those organ-
izations and give us the names of them ?
Mr. Masaoka. At the present time I don't know of any officially,
because presumably they have disbanded.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9577
/
Mr. IMuNDT. Take the pre-Pearl Harbor period.
Mr. ]\Iasaoka. Again I am in a difficult spot, because the records will
show I went to the Pacific coast late in 1941, in September, you see.
As for those in the intermountain area, I probably could, you see.
Now, I do think that there were definitely certain pro-Japanese ele-
ments. I think Mr. Slocum and others are better qualified in that field
than I am because they worked among those people. The same thing
goes on. In order to paint the lily white, if I don't know about them,
I should not mention it. I don't speak Japanese well enough to get
along with the average or first generation.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know an}^ of your own knowledge ? Could you
not name a single pro-Japanese pre-Pearl Harbor organization?
Mr. Masaoka. Oh, yes.
Mr. jNIundt. Well, name them, to your personal knowledge.
Mr. IVIasaoka. I think there was the Black Dragon Society and the
Tokyo Club. I think there was some alinement between the two, but I
don't know.
Mr. MuNDT. In this country you mean it was called the Tokyo Club ?
Mr. Masaoka. I am not quite sure. The big difficulty was over the
gambling part of it, or the controlling part of it, or something. There
was some connection, as I understand it. Then there were a number
of military men's groups or groups that were raising funds for the
military end or something of that sort. I think they were called
Hemushekai.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, on that point, last Saturday Mr.
Masaoka testified or intimated that the reason he was not evacuated
along with the other Japanese on the west coast was the fact that
apparently he was assisting the Army or the intelligence agencies in
giving them information.
Mr. Masaoka. No ; I was assisting the groups in the evacuation
process, yes.
Mr. Stripling. Well, did not Mr. Slocum also assist in that work?
Mr. Masaoka. Mr. Slocum was in the southern part. He was in
southern California. I was in San Francisco. I couldn't say.
•Mr. Stripling. You were subject to evacuation like the other resi-
dents of San Francisco, were. you not? You said for military reasons
you could not answer w^hy you were not evacuated along with the
others and had never been in a concentration center.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, only on visits. Well, it w^as something like
this: At the time of evacuation, when the orders were first issued, the
people Avere notified to leave if they so desired within a certain period.
Is that correct?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
]\Ir. Masaoka. Now, at that time the national office of the J. A. C. L.
felt that I should leave, you see, but certain Government people re-
quested that I, for example, remain behind for a certain time to help
them, and I received permission fi'om the Army that I stay, and
after a certain date I left. I left before the entire San Francisco
area was clear; but I did stay there until the portion in which I
resided had been evaciiated. Is that clear?
Mr. Eberharter. I would like to have you develop something. Mr.
Masaoka, you first testified before this committee on last Saturday.
On what day last week did you arrive in Washington?
Mr. Masaoka. I arrived Fridav afternoon.
9578 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Eberharter. Friday afternoon?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir. Let me check now. I left Wednesday.
Yes; I arrived Friday.
Mr. Eberharter. And before you appeared before the committee
here, did you have any conversation with any military authorities
with respect to the type of testimony that 3^ou were permitted to
give here?
Mr. Masaoka. I only reported to the commanding officer that I
was supposed to report to, and he merely told me that I was not to
discuss things dealing with military policy or military practices.
Mr. Eberharter. What commanding officer did you report to here?
I do not think that is a military secret.
]\Ir. Masaoka. Major Kumsey of the Military District of Wash-
ington, i
Mr. Eberharter. Is Major Rumsey connected with the military
security aspect of the District of Columbia?
Mr. Masaoka, That I don't know. I was merely ordered to report
to him. I merely followed instructions.
Mr. Eberharter. And the only instructions you got from him were
not to discuss or testify as to what?
Mr. Masaoka.- Anything to do with the military ; their practices ;
their policies, or their programs.
Mr. Eberharter. Since your arrival in Washington, did you dis-
cuss with any person connected with the W. R. A. the type of testi-
mony you were going to give here ?
Mr. Masaoka. I have not seen any member of the W. R. A.
Mr. Eberharter. Have you talked over the telephone or in any
other manner or had any communication in any way whatsoever
with any person connected with the W. R. A. since you Ijecame aware
of the fact that you were to testify before this committee?
Mr. Masaoka. No. The first time that I heard that I was to testify
was the reading in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, or something
of that sort, that I was to be called, and then I was ordered to report
here. Since coming here I have only contacted my colleague, Mr.
Tajiri. I am staying at the Dodge Hotel ; that is all. •
Mr. Eberhearter. Did you discuss with any person, either the mili-
tary or personnel of the W. R. A. since you saw that item in the
newspaper in regard to the nature or the type of testimony that
you might be asked to give here ?
Mr. Masaoka. No; I have not.
Mr. Eberharter. Just one other little line of questioning I would
like to complete, because I have to leave a little earlier. Is it
your opinion, Mr. Masaoka, that Japanese as a whole are a type of
people tliat have respect for firm discipline?
Mr. Masaoka. It is rather difficult to answer. They are used to
discipline within the family, yes; but they are also a very sensitive
group of people. I don't believe I could answer that either "yes" or
"no."
Mr. Eberharter. Would you not say that the Japanese people as a
whole have less respect for an administration that is rather lax in its
dis-^'ipline — one thnt lacks firmness?
Mr. Masaoica. That, of course, is a mooted point. On many things
I feel that possibly W. R. A. should have taken a firmer step as, for
example, on segregation.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9579
Mr. Ebeehakter. As for example which ?
Mr. Masaoka. As, for example, on segregation. I think they might
have acted nuich more swiftly than they clid and are doing. On the
other hand, I think they have understood or they realize and appre-
ciate the tremendous difficulty that they are trying to change over
from a normal life, yon see, into an arbitrary, artificial one. I think
that they have appeciated that to a remarkable degree.
JNIr. Eberharter. You mean, the officials?
Mr. Masaoka. The W. K. A. officials. So, I think that there is a
question there. Many people in the centers, while they think many
conditions are wrong and ought to be improved, nevertheless feel
that it certainly has been done in a humane way, and many people
have come to expect more and more because they have been treated
in that generous manner and understanding manner. So, I think it
works both ways.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, if the Japanese people are accustomed to
strict discipline through their parents
Mr. Masaoica. Let us say more strict discipline than the average
Caucasian. It is not a rigid thing like military life, you know. By
that I mean some people have the impression that a Japanese-Ameri-
can, for example, lives a sort of military spartan life. That is not
true.
Mr. Eberharter. But it is true that the children are generally under
the domination, practically absolute domination, of their parents.
Mr. Masaoka. Up until recently.
Mr. Eberharter. Particularly their fathers.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, some of the biggest complications in the
families have come up because of the Americanization of the young-
sters. The}' just can't take it.
Mr. Eberharter. And they seem to want to break away from that
absolute control that had heretofore been exercised by the father.
Mr. Masaoka. More or less absolute ; yes.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, do you not think, as a matter of fact, that
having been used to this absolute control, that it sort of is in their
psychology, that they can onlv have respect for authority which
exercises a firm discipline and a firm control ?
Mr. Masaoka. Not necessarily. This may seem paradoxical, but I
am just going to express a theory of mine. In America people learn
or are taught to think pretty much for themselves, to work out their
own salvation; to be, as it were, the master of his own soul. Now,
if you want to inculcate within the people of the centers the spirit of
Americanism of learning for themselves, and so on, you cannot impose
a dictatorial type of action or administration upon them.
Now, with Japanese, as any other people, they will resent tyranny
or anything else of the sort, especially after what they have gone
through. Therefore, I think that actually the W. R. A. rule, while
it has appeared to be lax in many cases has, for long-time thinking,
done a tremendous good in building up confidence in American
democratic ways ; in other words, had you forced these people — let us
put it specifically, let us take a certain group of Japanese, and you
have, taken these people and forced them behind these barbed-wire
environments, if you had dictated to them exactly everything they had
to do, that would have broke him. You would have had much more
difficulty in the centers because of that.
9580 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Eberharter. Then, following that, you feel if the evacuees had
been placed under the control of the militaiy, that they would have
resented it and that there would have been much more difficulty than
there has been?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; because persons who were evacuees were not
prisoners of war. To put them under the Army would have indi-
cated that. They would have resented it. I am afraid they would
have done something about it. That is my personal opinion, now you
understand.
Mr. Eberharter. They could not have done much about it if they
had been under the military, could they ?
Mr. Masaoka.' Yes; I think that you can do a lot even under the
military. For example, here again I am just talking out loud. If
the Japanese
Mr. Eberharter. You mean, thinking out loud.
Mr. Masaoka. Thinking out loud, yes ; and talking out loud. It is
quite conceivable that there might have been more bloodshed had it
been under Army rule. And, another thing, even if you didn't have
trouble under Army rule, you may have made a cringing, cowardly
people, and that would have been bad. Self-reliance of Japanese-
Americans is to be respected. Their ability to stay oif the relief rolls,
their ability to be law-abiding citizens, all of these things demonstrate
that they are good Americans.
Now, if you had to evacuate them because of military necessity, you
ought to give them as normal a life as possible and not add to their
embarrassment and chagrin by imposing upon them strict military
rules. I think that would have been dangerous.
Mr. Eberharter. On the other hand, if any of these evacuees in the
relocation centers are guilty of any infractions of the regulations or
the laws do you not believe that they should be sternly dealth with ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, yes. Now, there is a difference there. I think
we should make a sharp distinction between a nonstrict administration
over the whole. I think there should be an understanding, an appre-
ciative administration, and an administration who appreciates the
difficulties that the Japanese evacuees are laboring under.
Now, within that appreciative administration I think that there
should be, shall we say, a greater control over that sort of thing that
you mentioned; the dangerous difficulties that people are constantly
causing trouble, and so on. They should be dealt with summarily, be-
cause if you don't deal with them immediately and summarily they
are going to get away with it and cause others to. do the same, and it
becomes a rolling ball.
Mr. Eberharter. The mere fact that they are not dealt with sum-
marily causes the other Japanese to have less respect for the adminis-
tration ; you feel that ?
Mr. Masaoka. Along certain lines that may be true. You see, what
I am trying to contend for is this, that for the over-all general admin-
istration you have to have liberal policies. You have got to have
an understanding policy.
Mr. Eberharter. Yes, but where there are infractions or disobed-
iences of the rules and regulations, of the law : You believe that those
who are guilty should be sternly dealt with?
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9581
Mv. Masaoka. Yes. I think that same thing applies to normal so-
ciety on the outside. If a person violates a law, he should be dealt
with severely.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, I believe even more so is that true because of
the peculiar Japanese psychology ; in other words, it is necessary to
deal rather sternly Avith them because they have such respect for
authority and power. What do you think about that?
Mr. ]\Iasaoka, I think that one of the great legends concerning us is
the fact that we are so different from other people. I disagree. I
think that we are subject to the same passions, same emotions, as any
other person in America, because we have been trained like Americans;
I really do.
Mr, Eberharter. To become a little more specific now, in some of
the relocation centers the authorities had very good reason to know or
seemed to have good reason to know who was responsible for the dis-
turbances or riots or strikes, or whatever you may call them. You
think because no punishment has been meted out to those responsible
is an indication of too lax a policy?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't believe you can answer that generally ; but I
do. say that the records will show, or our records will show, I think,
Mr. Stripling, that we have always wanted the people who caused
the trouble, the troublemakers, and so on, to be routed summarily;
isn't that true?
Mr. Eberharter. Now, if we assume, Mr. Masaoka, that the admin-
istrative authority at these relocation centers where the trouble oc-
curred knew who was responsible for it, and they took Jio measures to
mete out any punishment whatsoever to those responsible, would you
not say, according to your opinion, that the administration was at
fault ?
Mr. Masaoka. In that particular regard, yes; in other words, they
were at fault in not dealing with that particular situation. Isn't that
what you were driving at. Congressman?
Mr. Eberharter. Yes.
Mr. Masaoka. In other words, I feel that as Americans we ought
to ahvays remember that we have the "four freedoms"; that we ought
to keep them here at home, as well as abroad, and that to these
Eeople who have been evacuated those same "four freedoms" should
e extended to every degree possible, you see.
]Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Masaoka, you said since you arrived in Washing-
. ton you were rooming with somebody. I did not get the name.
Mr. Masaoka, Xo; I am not rooming' with anybody. I am staying
at the Dodge Hotel.
Mr. MuNDT. Tajiri, was it?
jVlr. Masaoka, Yes; I have talked to him. He is staying at the
same place.
]Mr. MuNDT. Is he the man who succeeded you as secretary ?
Mr, INIasaoka, I don't know, I don't know if anyone has been
officially appointed to act since me or not. I do know he is repre-
senting the organization here.
j\Ir. MuxDT. Is he the gentleman sitting back in the room there ?
Mr. IMasaoka. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. ]MuxDT. Has he relayed to you any conversation or advice from,
the W. R. A. during your testimony i
62626 — 43— vol. 15 48
9582 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Masaoka. No. I will be very honest about that. We antici-
pated such questions, from you regarding the military or W. R. A.
and the others and therefore we studiously avoided that.
Mr. MuNDT. You made one statement that rather startled me. I
want you to amplify it a little bit. You said in answer to question by
Mr. Eberharter if the Arm^^ had been in charge of these camps in-
stead of the W. R. A., that you thought there would have been more
bloodshed under Armv rules.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes."
Mr. MuNDT. Do you feel that the Army would have been inclined
to shoot first and then ask questions or that the Japanese would be
inclined to shoot the Army? What did you mean by that?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; the Japanese would not be inclined to shoot the
Army because they would not have guns and all that. As to the
other, what the treatment would be, I am not in a position to say at
the present time.
Mr. MuNDT. Speaking for the Japanese, what would they do to
shed blood? They could not shoot, but they had a lot of cleavers.
Mr. Masaoka. No ; they are not as j3loodthirsty as all that.
Mr. MuNDT. What do you mean by "bloodshed"?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that Army life would be — I better appeal
to the Army now. I believe that Army life would be a pretty much
regimented life more so than now. Such regimentation imposed
upon little children, old men and old women would not set very well.
Somewhere along the line they will have nervous disorders, nervous
troubles within the individuals. They may start climbing over fences
and everything else, and that sort of thing, I don't feel that there
should be an Army, for one thing; in other words, I feel the Japa-
nese people, particularly the Japanese-Americans, value life pretty
highly. I, for example, would not just throw my life away just
to prove something one way or another.
Mr. Ererharter. You feel that if the Army would have been in
charge, it would have been more repressive and again lead to more
disorders ?
Mr. Masaoka. It is a little difficult to say "Yes" in the pres-
ent situation.
Mr. Eberharter, Your disillusions in the Army may disillusion
you along that line.
Mr. Masaoka. It may,
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in connection with the questions of,.
Mr. Eberharter, I would like to ask the witness if he knows one
Carl G. Yoneda.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; I met him in San Francisco. He is not a
member of our organization.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know him to be a block leader at Manzanar,
Calif., or was he a block leader?
Mr, Masaoka. I think he was.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know where he is now ?
Mr. Masaoka. Camp Savage. -
Mr. Stripling. A military intelligence school?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you assume then that he was a person of
reliability ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9583
Mr. Masaoka. I would assume so.
Mr. Stripling. On July 11, 1942, Mr. Yoneda wrote to Mr. E. R.
Fryer, regional director of the War Relocation Authority in San
Francisco, Calif., a letter, more in the nature of a report, and he
sent a copy of it to Mr. Nash, who was director of Manzanar, Calif.;
also a copy to Mr. Dillon Myer, Washington, D. C, and also, ap-
parentlj^ he sent a copy to Mr. INIasaoka, because it was found in the
files of the J. A. C. L. here.
On page 3 of this report, in which Mr. Yoneda is describing con-
ditions in Manzanar camp, he states [reading] :
On INIai'ch 23 aboard train to Manzanar, one Kibei — Hawaiian-born Juichi
Uyemoto — loudly- talked in Japanese that "we ought to have enough guts to
kill Roosevelt. The President is a damn fool, etc." I was sitting three seats
behind him and told him, "Shut up or you'll go to Montana concentration
camp."
Again, apparently after August 8, 1942, Mr. Yoneda sent you a copy of a
report entitled "Notes and Observations of Kibei meeting held August 8, 1942
at Kitchen 15 — only Japanese spoken."
He gives a verbal statement here of what was said, and he states
that Juichi Uyemoto, who had made the threat on the train, said
[reading] :
I was born in Hawaii, been in Japan and Manchuria for 30 years. Come to
the United States of America 1 year ago. Surprised to see that Japanese here
are not united spiritually like in Japan. Trouble with Japanese here is that
there are too many Reds among you. This is the man who said on the way to
Manzanar, aboard the train on March 23, that Nisei ought to have guts and kill
President.
On receipt of either one of these documents, Mr. Masaoka, did you
take this matter up with Mr. Myer or with the F. B. I. or any of the
authorities?
Mr. Masaoka. To the best of my knowledge, I did.
Mr. Stripling. You did. Do you know what action was taken?
]Nrr. Masaoka. No; I do not.
Mr. Striplixg. There is a 5-month lapse from the time he made
the statement on the train until he made the statement at the Kibei
meeting at the Manzanar relocation center, so apparently no action
lias been taken for a period of 5 months.
Mr. Masaoka. Not that I know of. But some investigation, I pre-
sume, was made. I might state that the reason Mr. Yoneda was not
admitted to membership in the J. A. C. L. is that he said he was a
member of the Communist Party, and we have restrictions against
that.
Mr. Stripling. He is a member of the Communist Party ?
]SIr. Masaoka. Yes.
^Ir. Stripling. And you say he is at the Camp Savage Military
Intelligence School ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a letter dated September 14, 1912, ad-
dressed "Dear Mike" on the letterhead of the J. A. C. L. from the
director, signed Director Inagaki. Will you explain to the committee
who Mr. Inagaki is?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, George Inagaki was my colleague during my
first visit to the East. He is now also at Camp Savage Military
9584 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES-
Intelligence School. He was director at that time of our associate
members division.
Mr. Stripling. I call your attention to page 2 of this letter in which
Mr. Inagaki states the following [reading] :
The situation in Manzanar seems to be easing up with the announcement
that only citizens can take office. Also the fact that Nisei may leave if jobs are
definite provided they can pass the Federal Bureau of Investigation exam.
Of course this means that they will have to be good Americans and that got the
fellows thinking.
Will you read that and explain to the committee what you think
Mr. Inagaki meant when he said that they had to be good Americans
and that got the fellows thinking ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think they began to wonder what was meant by
the term "good Americans." Wouldn't that be the natural conclu-
sion?
Mr. Stripling. Well, it simply states this means that they will have
to be good Americans, that is, providing they pass the F. B. I. And,,
he further states [reading] :
and that got the fellows thinking.
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. You do not know what he meant there ?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. CosTELLo. Where is Mr. Inagaki at the present time, did youi
say?
Mr. Masaoka. He is at Camp Savage, Military Intelligence.
Mr. CosTELLO. In the Army?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. You may be interested to know, out of the
original eight workers, six are either in the military or at Camp
Savage. One is not eligible and the other has very bad eyes. We
may have made very many mistakes in the organization, but I don't
think we made mistakes in joining the Army.
Mr. Eberiiarter. Do you know where that party is that made the
disturbance on the train? Do you know where he is at the present
time ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe he is at a special concentration camp, but
I don't know for certain. I believe he has been segregated and is
at Leupp, Ariz. Now, that is purely conjecture.
Mr. Eberharter. Do the committee records show where he is?
Mr. Stripling. No, sir; they do not. Mr. Masaoka, Mr. Mundt, or
Mr. Costello called your attention to the exaggeration of membership
of the J. A. C. L. Have you also exaggerated the subscription list
of the Pacific Citizen, which is the official organ of the J. A. C. L. ?
Mr. Masaoka. What did I give the subscription list as?
Mr. Stripling. Well, have you from time to time exaggerated the
subscription list?
Mr. Masaoka. I may have.
Mr. Stripling. In your report of July 11, 1942, addressed to the
national headquarters, signed. "Mike," you state that the editorials
of the Pacific Citizen carry great weight. ^Yliat is the actual sub-
scription list of the Pacific Citizen ?
Mr. Masaoka, You got me.
Mr. Stripling. Well, do you have any idea ?
Mr. Masaoka. No : I have not.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9585
Mr. Stripling. It is not 10,000, is it ?
Mr. ]\Iasaoka. No ; I think it would be closer to a third of that, or
half of that.
Mr. Striplixg. "Well, do you have any figure ?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. One-third ; 3,000 ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I think it is better than 3,000. You see, as
with all newspapers, particularly the Pacific Citizen, when it goes
to a center it has a larger subscription than its actual subscription
list, because it is passed on and around and around, so that it can,
be justified.
Mr. Stripling. In this same report, Mr. Masaoka, you mention a
Mr. Shields as having had certain dealings with you. Do you know
who Mr. Shields is ?
Mr. Masaoka. What do I say ?
Mr. Stripling (reading) :
As you know, he has often begged the local Federal Bureau of Investigation
iu our behalf.
Mr. Masaoka. That is the United States attorney, district of Idaho.
Mr. Stripling. What do you mean when you say he has begged the
F. B. I. in your behalf?
. Mr. Masaoka. Well the particular incident that I had in mind, I
think, some of the people went swimming at Great Salt Lake, which
is about 18 miles out. There was some misunderstanding and so they
<?ame home late and they went through a prohibited zone; the rail-
road strip that they crossed. The F. B. I. picked up these people
and Mr. Shields decided, I believe, that they should not be prose-
cuted. I believe that is the reference.
Mr. Stripling. Is the Japanese American Citizens League affili-
ated in any way with the American Committee for the Protection
of Foreign Born?
Mr. Masaoka. No. I would like to explain that. Let me see, some-
time in May 1912, I was invited to address their national conference
in Cleveland, I believe. At the time, not knowing their background,
I did so. I gave a prepared address. About 3 or 4 months later I
suddenly discovered that I was a director of this American Committee
for the Protection of Foreign-Born, which was amazing to me.- In
the files somewhere, and I am sure you gentlemen have it, is a letter
of m}^ resignation, also pointing out that as far as I knew I had
never become a member of the group. I had never been appointed
a director and therefore it came as a shock to me to find that I had
been invited to their meeting,
Mr. Stripling. Would you consider it a Communist organization?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know what to consider it, but I didn't just
like it. In other words, I don't know what a Communist organization
is, really. Certain people have told me that it is a Communist or-
ganization, and I said, "No." I said, "No; they are' just liberal."
And, frankly, gentlemen, I don't know what a Communist organiza-
tion is.
Mr. Stripling. In your memorandum of July 11 to your national
headquarters you also make mention of the fact of having been ap-
pointed director of the American Committee for the Protection of
Foreign Born.
9586 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIE'S
Mr, Masaoka. No^^, let me correct that. I was invited, yes, then
I M'as appointed director before I had accepted ; isn't that correct, or
something of that sort ? Anyway, it was a very embarrassing part of
my life when I discovered that I was a director.
Mr. Stripling. Mv. Masaokii, were you ever in favor of having
contraband articles returned to the evacuees?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. In other words, I think that such things as
flashlights and that in relocation centers
Mr. Stripling. How about cameras ?
Mr. Mas \oka. I think tliey should be returned, but I think it would
be inadvisable for Japanese to be carrying them. In other words,
there is a matter of principle and expediency involved there.
Mr. Stripling. In your report of April 19, 1943, you state [read-
ing] :
Wliile it may not be the best public relations, still I believe that we ought to
seek a revocation of tlie contraband articles regulations of the Western Defense
Command as they apply to cameras, flashlights, and knives, as a matter of
principle and of being consistent.
Is that correct?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. I would like to make a statement there about
knives. For a long time the people in the centers could not have
knives of any sort. And, of course, they could not even cook, and
had a little difficulty with that. Later on, well, recently, I think
they have been permitted to have cooking knives; you know, small
paring knives, and so on.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. ISIasaoka, in connection with the cases which
were recently decided by the Supreme Court on evacuation-
Mr. Masaoka. On curfew.
Mr. Stripling. In your report of April 19, you state :
The inside story as to why these cases were certified directly to the Supreme
Court, which is an unusual procedure, is that Biddle himself requested that
the judges unanimously certify them to the Supreme Court without comment.
He is particularly griped at the judge who dissented and issued his opinion on
the procedure. It seems that Biddle did not desire to have too much publicity
on the cases, especially in the California press, which might unduly and un-
consciously inHuence the judges. Briefly, he wanted a fair decision and one
wMch would not be discussed in the coast papers which might renew the cam-
paign against Japanese. In order to get as little publicity as possible, and to
prevent a possible revival of the campaign to smear the Japanese, he requested
this unusual procedure. I understand from sources close to the Justice Depart-
ment that both Biddle and Ennis, who will represent the Government in these
cases, have expressed the private opinion that it might be just as well if the
Government lost these cases. It seems that DeWitt has gotten wind of their
private sentiments and will in all probability send a special representative,
generally thought to be Benedsen, to argue his side of the question before the
Supreme Court. Ennis has said that the Government will probably win on the
matter of evacuation, especially since in wartime the courts do not usually
challenge the military, but that they will probably lose if the question of detention
is brought up.
Will you explain to the committee where you received that infor-
mation ?
Mr. Masaoka. I do not recall exactly.
Mr. Stripling. Would you ex])lain to the committee, Mr. IMasaoka,
your campaign against the motion picture Air Force and the basis for
your objections to that picture?
Mr. Masaoka. The Government, I believe, of all organizations,
should be accurate. Motion pictures have a great ability to influence
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9587
and sway public opinion. The motion picture Air Force, while it is
an amazingly graphic picture of a particular flying fortress, does con-
t-ain a repetition of the vicious rumors concerning the opportunity
which Japanese-Americans allegedly played at Pearl Harbor, such as
blocking the air fields and that sort of thing, all of which have been dis-
proved by the Tolan committee report and subsequent investigations.
Now, these are contained in the picture Air Force. If it. is the ob-
ject of the W. R. A. and this Government to resettle loyal Americans
of Japanese ancestry, to have a picture of this nature going around
tlnoughout the country may have a disturbing effect on local public
opinion, so that they will not accept Japanese- Americans, and there-
fore we wanted to see it removed, if possible, or that particular sec-
tion deleted.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did I understand you to make the statement that
the Government should be accurate ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
IMr. CosTELLo. The motion picture Air Force is not a Government
picture.
Mr. Masaoka. I am sorry. I stand corrected. My understanding
was that the O. W. I. checks pictures to be selected.
Mr. Steipling. This is by Warner Bros.
Mr. CosTELLO. It is a Warner Bros, production, and I think it was
simply reviewed down here by the War Department before it was
released.
IMr. Masaoka. I am sorry.
Mr. CosTELLO. Any O. W. I. censorship over a Warner production of
that character, I imagine, would be extremely limited.
Mr. Masaoka. I am sorry.
Mr. Stripling. Did you get in touch with Authoress Pearl Buck in
regard to this campaign?
ISIr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Have you- also contacted Miss Buck with reference
to other matters of the J. A. C. L. ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you take up with her the matter of soliciting
the assistance of Madam Chiang Kai-shek?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; I did.
Mr. Stripling. "W^iat was Madam Chiang Kai-shek's advice to you?
Mr. Masaoka. I would rather not have that made in public.
Mr. Stripling. You would rather not ?
Mr. Masaoka. I will be glad to discuss that with you gentlemen
privately.
Mr. Stripling. It appears in this report of Mr. Masaoka's, Mr.
Chairman. You might read it and determine if it is a proper question.
Mr. Masaoka. I would be glad to discuss it with you gentlemen in
executive session.
Mr. CcSTELLO. We will discuss that matter in executive session with
you rather than in open session, if you desire. You might proceed, Mr.
Stripling, with other questions.
Mr. Stripling. INIr. Masaoka, will you explain to the committee the
formation and purposes of the organization known as the Student
Relocation Council ?
9588 UN-AMERICAN' PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. At the time of evacuation there were approxi-
mately 2,000 or 3,000 persons of Japanese ancestry attending the west-
coast colleges. With their disruption of education caused by the
evacuation, the educators and others concerned, individuals on the
west coast, thought that some system ought to be worked out whereby
the young men and young women could continue their education.
They appealed to the Government; Mr. Eisenhower, who was then
the head of the War Relocation Authority, invited Mr. Clarence
Pickett, who is executive secretary of the American Friends Service
Committee, to form a committee, a private organization, to cooperate
with the W. R. A.
They held a meeting first, I believe, in May 1942, in Chicago, at
which time a great number of educators from all parts of the country
met and they created the Students Relocation Council.
Since that time this National Students Relocation Council has been
working to open up colleges and universities as well as to provide
scholarships and other means of financing eligible persons of Japanese
ancestry. This committee worked in two separate fields; one, inter-
viewing people within the centers who desired to go out to college,
and, secondly, opening u\^ the colleges and making opportunities for
those young people. This committee's headquarters is located in
Philadelphia.
Mr. Stripling. How many students have been released under this
program that you know of?
Mr. Masaoka. I can't recall the figure. I think they were given
somewhere.
Mr. Stripling. Has it been a thousand or a hundred ?
Mr. Masaoka. Pretty close to a thousand, I think.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in the report of April 26, on page 3,
Mr. Masaoka stated [reading] :
Glick lias given us a copy of his opinion on dnal citizengbip. This is not for
[publication.
Was that opinion later released, Mr. Masaoka ?
Mr. Masaoica. I don't recall.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall receiving it ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr, Stripling. You did receive it prior to the time it was made
public, if it has been made public?
Mr. Masaoka. I received it long after it was released to other War
Relocation Authority directors, that is all I know. I don't know
whether it was released for publication or not. You see, I came after
it had been worked out, and I simply received it for my own infor-
mation.
Mr. Stripling. In this same report, you state [reading] :
In Chicago, before the University of Chicago seminar on social problems, Myer
and Glick hinted that the War Relocation Authority could be liquidated by 1944.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes; I was given to believe that by a person who
told me about the meeting.
Mr. Stripling. You said Myer and Glick hinted it to you. You
did not say they hinted it to somebod}^ else.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I was not at the Chicago meeting.
Mr. Stripling, You were riot there
Mr. Masaoka. No.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9589
Mr. Stripling [reading] :
In Chicago, too, Myer tokl of plans to return some evacuees to the coast in the
form of a token return to prove to California that they cannot dictate to the rest
of the Nation.
Mr. JMasaoka. I i;vas not at the Chicago meeting. This was hear-
say.
'J\lr. Stripling. Well, who furnished you this information, Mr.
Masaoko? Was it Mr. McWilliams, Carey McWilliams?
Mr. Masaoka. Probably.
]Mr. Stripling. Who was Carey McWilliams?
Mr. Masaok^v. As far as I know, he is or was the former commis-
sioner of labor and immigration for the State of California and con-
sidered an authority on our subject. I only met him once when he
came through this wa}- and he gave me this information.
]Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether he has any Communist affilia-
tions or not ?
Mr. JVIasaoka. I have lieard.that he has had.
Mr. Stripling. You state here in your conversation with Cary
McWilliams [reading] :
Asked vs'hether I thought it better for the Japanese to attempt to return,
even with the possibility of some bloodshed, I replied in the affirmative.
Is that your opinion ?
Mr. ISIasaoka. Now ?
Mr. Stripling. Now; yes.
Mr. IMasaoka. The more I think about the situation, the more con-
fused I become. Possibly it poses a rather difficult c[uestion as to
whether it is better to have bloodshed in seeking a principle or just
wait until things run out their course. I have no answer to that.
Mr. Stripling. In this same memorandum you report concerning
your conference with Colonel Scobey, Mr. McCIoy, and Captain Hall.
You state [reading] :
In spite of all this, though, he feels that persons who answer no-no to ques-
tions 27 and 28 ought to be segregated as disloyal. I tried to argue with him
at some length on this point, but he remains adamant.
That was the loyalty question, was it not ?
Mr. INIasaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. And which was circulated by the Army among the
Japanese- Americans who were eligible for selective service ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You said here that you argued with Colonel Scobey
that even though an evacuee had signed a statement, that he was not
loyal to the United States Government. What was your position,
exactly ?
Mr. Masaoka. I wanted a rehearing for some of the cases. I felt
that there was too much influence from other sources on some of
these people.
Mr. Stripling. Well, is it not true that some of the War Reloca-
tion Authority ofiicials called in a number of these boys who had
answered "no" to this question and asked them to change their minds?
Mr. Masaoka. I had neard al:)Out that, but I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. And offered them inducements, to change their
mind ?
9590 UN-AMERICAN' PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Chairman, has not the committee received testimony on that
point?
Mr. CosTELLO. Regarding the change of opinion ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. I do not recall.
Mr. MuNDT. We received testimony in Los Angeles to the effect that
the question was changed ; modified.
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that had reference to the aliens, did it not?
In other words, the original question, as I recall
Mr. MuNDT. I think that is right. It dealt with the aliens and it
made it easier for them to answer "Yes."
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Masaoka, were you often called in by the offi-
cials of the War Relocation Authority and invited to make sugges-
tions concerning the policy of that organization?
Mr. Masaoka. Maybe "invited" is not the exact term. I used to go
in for appointments and then make suggestions regarding their policy.
I made suggestions ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been invited to make suggestions?
Mr. Masaoka. I may have been from time to time on present
policies.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall on which particular policy you were
called in ?
Mr. Masaoka. No, I don't.
Mr. Stripling. As a consultant, so to speak?
Mr. Masaoka. No, I don't.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a question. Doctor ?
Mr. Matthews. In your testimony earlier today, Mr. Masaoka,
you stated that you went to Salt Lake City at one time ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think in November, to attend a conference.
Mr. Matthews. And did you return to Washington in May ?
Mr. MxVSAOKA. I think that is about right.
Mr. Matthews. How is it that this report written by you to the
national headquarters is dated "Washington," in April? Are you
not a little mixed up on the date when you came back ?
Mr. Masaoka. Let me see, I got married in February. I went
back for a conference in November. As I said, I thought it was the
forepart of May.
Mr. Matthews. AVell, you are sure you were here in April, though,
are you not, from this report ?
Mr. Masaoka. It must be. That is the last part of April, though,
you see.
Mr. Matthews. Well, you do not want your testimony to show May
when it was April, do you ?
Mr. Masaoka. No; I am sorry. I said I thought it was about May.
1 can't remember exact details and dates.
Mr. Matthews. In your letter of September 17 to Mr. Mamora
Wakusagi of Weiser, Idaho, on page 4 you state [reading] :
I have just returned to Washington and am being kept very busy. Confiden-
tially, we are working on a complete liberalization of the War Relocation Au-
thority program and I am rather pleased with the progress which we seem to be
making. Keep your fingers crossed and maybe we will be able to swing it.
Did you swing it, Mr. Masaoka?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9591
Mr. Masaoka. 1 am not quite sure what we had in mind at that
lime.
Mr. Matthews. Well, will you examine it?
Mr. Masaoka. I think this is just a typical letter to a member.
^Ir. CosTELLO. Is the word "confidential" used now in the same
light that you used it previously; that you wanted it publicized?
Mr. JMasaoka. AVell, I am quite sure that the gentleman did pub-
licize it.
Mr. CosTELLO. That he did?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. And that you were working on this liberalization
program ?
Mr. Masaoka. Probably.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did you publicize that?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know whether he emphasized it or not, but
I am quite sure he publicized the fact that I was working in Wash-
ington.
Mr. CosTELLO. Without stating what you were doing in Washing-
ton ?
]Mr. Masaoka. Well, I wouldn't know. I don't know what he
publicized.
Mr. Stripling. Your attention was called to a letter written by
Mr. Kanazawa, the eastern representative, concerning the W. R. A.
staff directives, which you received. Here is a letter dated September
3, which is signed "Joe" and addressed to you. Is that from Mr.
Kanazawa?
Mr. Masaoka. It appeal's to be.
Mr. Stripling. I think this paragraph has probably been read
into the record, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to read it over
again. It says:
Received a 2-inch stack of War Relocation Authority staff directives for our
confidential use, including those giving policies resulting from the San Fran-
cisco conference. Mr. Myer and Mr. Rowalt feel that, in order to avoid any
unfavorable public reaction that might result from misunderstanding of the
policies, that the less publicity given them the better. If there are facts and
information here which you feel might be best released for publication in
Pacific Citizen, then they are best left up to your discretion. So I will not
do anything with them, but keep them here for your perusal. Mr. Rcnvalt has
placed us on the mailing list for future directives coming out of the San
Francisco conference.
Mr. INIasaoka, do you of your own knowledge know of cases where
evacuees, who have been released for employment on certain work
corps, such as in the beet fields, and so forth, have, so-called, run
away from the corps and not reported back and been the subject of
F, B. I, search?
Mr, Masaoka. I have heard stories about that, but I do not know
of any specific individual's name.
Mr. Stripling. On August 12, 1942, you wrote a letter to Mr.
Franklin L. Chino, in which you stated :
Dear Frank : This is to ask if you know of the whereabouts of Tito U.
Okamoto. He was last heard of from Chicago, when he sent a post card home.
He is an evacuee from one of the centers, who was working with a work
corps in the Montana beet fields when he disappeared.
Mr. ]\Iasaoka. I recall the incident; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know of any similar cases of that kind?
5592 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
. Mr. Masaoka. No. I imagine tliere might have been some. After
all. they released several thousands at that time.
Mr. Stripling. Were you successful in locating Mr. Okamoto?
Mr. Masaoka. Not through sources. I don't recall the final dis-
position of that.
Mr. Stripling. Do vou know a gentleman by the name of E. Roos
Wright?
Mr. Masaoka. I have heard of him.
Mr. Stripling. Eleven hundred and fifty South Flower Street, Los
Angeles, Calif.
Mr. Masaoka. I never met the gentleman, I don't believe.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know who the gentleman is?
Mr. Masaoka. I have heard of him; possibly through my brother.
Mr. Stripling. In your files there is a letter from Mr. Wright^
dated July 2, 1942, addressed to Joe Masaoka, Manzanar, Calif., in
which he states [reading] :
Some time late in July, or early August, I get my vacation. At that time my
plans are made to visit the Governor of New Mexico, the Governor of Colorado,
and the Governor of Idaho, with the thought in mind that perhaps it might be
possible to make a deal with one of them to offer the proper guaranties — they
being politicians, I expect the offer that will be necessary to make will be an
unwritten guaranty to deliver the vote of the group in case we can get his
cooperation.
Are you familiar with that subject?
Mr. Masaoka. I think I read that in one of the papers; yes. I
would like to state that at the time of evacuation, and thereafter, we
received many types of proposals.
Mr. Stripling. You never gave this proposal any .consideration ?
Mr. Masaoka. No, no. In the first place, we didn't have 70,000
voters. That is about all the American citizens we have, and most
of them would be under age. In the second place, we haven't been
too concerned with large group resettlements. We have been more
concerned with individual W. R. A. resettlement programs. In the
third place, that was not addressed to me and as far as 1 know I
didn't^ take any action directly with Mr. Wright regarding it one
way or the other.
Mr. Matthews. Did the Japanese American Citizens League in-
terest itself in whether or not the persons in the relocation centers
voted ?
Mr. Masaoka. Voted?
Mr. Matthews. As a part of that activity.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes. We wanted them to vote, but we never told
them to vote in bioc because, being a minority group, as you poli-
ticians know, it would be dangerous to put all your eggs in one
basket,
Mr. Matthews. What activities did you carry out in inducing the
persons residing in these relocation centers to vote?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, merely an editorial a day or two in the Pacific
Citizen, suggesting that they write to their clerk of the county in
which they resided before evacuation, asking for an absentee ballot.
I don't believe it was too successful ; I am not quite sure.
Mr. Matthews. Did the J. A. C. L. distribute thousands of forms
to be filled in at the relocation centers ?
Mr. Masaoka. Some of the chapters may have done so.
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9593
Mr. ]Matthi:ws. Do you think they did?
Mr. Masaoka. They may have done so. I can't recall that.
Mr. Matthews. In the Gila News Courier for October 17, 1942,
there is a news item which states that the national oflice of the J. A.
C. L. has distributed more than 25,000 printed application forms to
voters in the various relocation and assembly centers.
Mr. Masaoka. The national office may have done it, but it was
never at my direction and I don't recall too much about it.
]\Ir. CosTELLo. You were active in Washington at the time that was
sent out, were you not ?
Mr. Masaoka. AVliat is the date ?
ISIr. Stripling. The date is October 17, 1942.
Mr. ]\Iasaoka. I believe I was here then.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know whether many of the Japanese in the
centers actually did apply for absentee ballots or not ?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know. In some centers, of course, political
interest was greater than in other centers.
Mr. Matthews. Did the J. A. C. L. open offices in any of the cen-
ters to assist the residents of those centers in filling out these absentee
ballot forms?
Mr. Masaoka. The national organization did not. Perhaps some
of the J. A. C. L. people in the different centers might have done so.
Mr. Matthews. This new item states :
In order to aid the voters iu this election, the J. A. C. L. will open an office
in block 42 next week.
Mr. Masaoka. When the term "J. A. C. L." is used, it can be used
in many forms, you see. So far as I know, the national office, at least
I personally, did not arrange for any of that sort of procedure.
Mr. Stripling. Will you examine this document and identif}^ it for
the committee, Mr. Masaoka ?
Mr. Masaoka. This appears to be a documentation from Manzanar,
Calif., dated the 1st of July, 1942.
Mr. Stripling. It has at the top, Mr. Chairman, War Relocation
Authority, Historical Documentation, Manzanar, Report No. 16. com-
piled for Joe ^Masaoka and Togo Tanaka. Was this a Government
project? • It says project report No. 16.
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. And there is a complete file of this in the records
which were subpenaed by the committee.
Mr. Masaoka. It is not complete, is it? If it is, it is an amazing
revelation to me, because I thought they were rather incomplete.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, there are at least 30 or 40 of these
reports. I want the witness to advise the committee whether or not
this was prepared for the use of the War Relocation Authority, and
if it was prepared from funds supplied by the W. R. A.
Mr. Masaoka. I presume it was.
Mr. Stripling. How then did you have copies, of these reports?
Mr. Masaoka. I just — my brother just sent them to me.
Mr. Stripling. You mean he was employed by the W. R. A. to
compile them?
Mr. Masaoka. For the munificent sum of $12 a month, something
like that.
9594 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIE'S
Mr. Stripling. But they were Government reports and you were
supplied with copies of them ; is that right ?
Mr. Matthews. You better answer audibly so that the reporter
can get it.
Mr. Masaoka. It would appear to be so.
Mr. Steipling. Did these reports deal with the internal conditions
within the camps?
Mr. Masaoka. I thought it was supposed to be an historical docu-
mentation of w^hat happened there ; at least, the impression of these
two young interviewers. They would have almost everything in
there, as you well know.
Mr. Stripling. And they were intended primarily for the War Re-
location Authority.
INIr. Masaoka. Well, for documentation for the future, I believe.
Mr. Stripling. They were W. R. A. documents; that is right, is it
not, and you were given copies of them ?
Mr. Masaoka. Something like that.
Mr. Stripling. Well, what do you mean by "something like that" ?
Is not that the situation?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, let us say copies were sent to me.
Mr. SraiPLiNG. All right. Have you ever communicated with any
officials of the Civil Service Commission or of any other Government
agencies regarding a program to obtain civil-service jobs for a num-
ber of evacuees ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that I did.
Mr. Stripling. Whom did you contact with reference to that pro-
gram ?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall. It was not very satisfactory. The
indirect reports were more satisfactory than any personal approaches.
Mr. Stripling. In your report of September 19 you state [reading] r
I've suggested the items on this which we discussed in Salt Lake; namely^
that our eligible people be permitted to take the regular civil-service exams and
be permitted to come to Washington or elsewhere to take jobs in the not-too-
essential jobs. I don't like granting this point, but it seems to me that our
bigger job is to get people out. Later on perhaps we can work on the angle of
discrimination. Fleming of the Commission is in accord with us and is awaiting
the new procedure for rel^'ases before going to bat with the rest of the Commis-
sion on this matter. This looks pretty good to me.
Mr. Masaoka. I did not contact Fleming personally.
Mr. Stripling. You did not?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Stripling! Who did?
Mr, Masaoka. I don't remember.
Mr. Stripling. .Well, you were very definite about it.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes ; I remember the name, Fleming.
Mr. Stripling. Then you said :
Manpower Commission and Paul McNutt is something else. They aren't so
enthusiastic in boosting Nisei for jobs on the outside, but the need for workers
is being used to change his mind.
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever contact Mr. Wendell Willkie ?
Mr. Masaoka. Only by letter. . '
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, that completes ray examination of
the witness.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9595
Mr. ]\Iatthews. Have you ever been in touch with Roger Baldwin
during tlie past week?
]Mr. ^Iasaoka. No. I have been in camp, that is, the Army camp.
iMr. Matthews. Well, I mean, going back 5 or G days; have you
been in touch with Roger Baldwin?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know whether or not Mr. Kanazawa con-
sulted with Roger Baldwin ?
]Mr. Masaoka. I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. You said that you had consulted with Larry Tijiri
since your coming to Washington.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. jNIatthews. Did not Tijiri tell you that Kanazawa had con-
sulted with Baldwin?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. ^Matthews. Do you know whether or not Saburo Kido got in
touch with Kanazawa concerning his relationships with this com-
mittee ?
Mr. ]Masaoka. I do not know.
Mr. Matthews. Did not Tijiri tell you anj^thing about that?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Matthews. Did you receive any communication from Kido
with respect to your appearance here ?
Mr. Masaoka. No. There was some confusion as to exactlv where
I was, because of the mix-up m my shifting around.
Mr. Matthews. Did Tijiri tell you what advice he had given
Kanazawa concerning his testimony, that is, concerning Kanazawa's
testimony ?
Mr. Masaoka. No. I think he told me Avhat Kanazawa had done,,
but I don't recall. I do not recall whether he did or not.
JSIr. ^Matthews. Do you not think that it would have been in the
ordinary course of things normal for Tijiri to have told you about a
telegram that Kanazawa received just before his appearance before
this committee from Kido?
Mr. Masaoka. You see, I got in Friday morning and I waited at
the station, at the U. S. O., to be taken to my point where I was
ordered to report. I remained here that afternoon. I didn't get in
until late at night and I didn't know Mr. Tijiri wijs at the Dodge
Hotel until late that night.
]Mr. Matthews. How long did you discuss this matter with Tijiri?
j\Ir. Masaoka. Not very long, because it was late at night and we
were both sleepy. I just arrived from a long trip.
Mr. Matthews. Has he since told you about Kido's telegram to
Kanazawa?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't think he did.
!Mr. ISIatthews. Would it refresh your recollection if I read you
the telegram from Kido to Kanazawa? [Reading]:
Nothing would be gained by seeing investigator before hostile committee. Ad-
vise against interview. No obligation see anyone advance hearing. Consult
Baldwin at this time instead.
Did you know about that telegram ?
Mr. ^Iasaoka. I never heard about the telegram ; no, sir.
9596 UN-AMERICAN' PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. What steps concerning the work of the Japanese
American Citizens League did you discuss with Mrs. Roosevelt ?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't think we discussed anything concerning the
Japanese American Citizens League specifically. X think we dis-
cussed the general resettlement program.
Mr. Matthews. Did you offer her advice or vice versa?
Mr. Masaoka. No. We simply got her impressions of the visit to
the Gila River relocation center. It was a very short one.
Mr. Matthews. In one of the communications read into the record
there is an implication that Myer was not formulating his own pro-
gram but was doing so at the behest of Mrs. Roosevelt. Do you know
whether that is a fact or not ?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; I don't think that was a fact. ,
Mr. Matthews. You recall the telegram to which I refer ; do' you
not?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Matthews. It was in the form of a telegram, I believe.
Mr. Stripling. Letter.
Mr. Matthews. Lettergram.
Mr. Masaoka. From whom? From me?
Mr. Stripling. From Inagaki.
Mr. Masaoka. I don't recall.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you say Mrs. Roosevelt visited the Gila center ?
Mr. Masaoka. I think she visited the Gila center. She visited one.
Mr. MuNDT. You say she made a very short visit. How long was she
there ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe it was a day.
Mr. MuNDT. A dav?
Mr. Masaoka. I think so. That was quite recently; in May, I be-
lieve. It was in the papers at the time. She wrote a couple of ac-
counts of it in her My Day.
Mr. MuNDT. That was before she kind of took an aversion to her
publicity, as you say.
Mr. Matthews. Who introduced you to Mrs. Roosevelt ?
Mr. Masaoka. I have been introduced to her a number of times.
Mr. Matthews. You mean, you met her a number of times since
you were first introduced to her.
Mr. Masaoka. I met her away back in Utah, in the davs before I
was connected with the J. A. C. L. I was interested in Democratic
politics, I met her there for the first time.
Mr. Matthews. Is that while you were a student ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. The letter is addressed to you from Inagaki. It
reads, in part :
Is Mrs. Roosevelt's hand in the back of this latest move on the part of the
War Relocation Authority or did Myer figure it out by himself?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know what he means.
Mr. Matthews. You don't recall that at all ?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Matthews. You can identif v the letter ; can you not ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes ; I can identify the letter. I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. Well, is not the plain implication to your mind
there that Myer was not acting independently?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9597
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know.
Mr. Matthews. In formulating the policy?
Mr. Masaoka. I don't know what Mr. Inagaki had in mind. So
far as I know, Mr. Myer was performing his own operation and doing
a darn good job, I should say.
^Ir. Matthf.ws. But Mv. Inagaki had some reason for thinking
he was not ; is that not right ?
Mr. Masaoka. Well, that is up to Mr. Inagaki.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Myer address the Special Emergency Na-
tional Conference of the J. A. C. L. which was held in Salt Lake
City November 17-24, 1942?
Mr. INIasaoka. Yes.
;Mr. Stripling. Did the J. A. C. L. pay his expenses out there?
Mr. Masaoka. No; he was on his way out to the west coast any-
way.
j\Ir. Stripling. Yon did not pay his expenses?
Mr. Masaoka. No.
Mr. Stripling. Was that an off-the-record speech that was printed
in your confidential minutes?
Mr. Masaoka. He made two speeches.
Mr. Stripling. Were they off the record ?
Mr. Masaoka. One was not.
Mr. Matthews. Do you mean that one was ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you saying that he made one speech off the record ?
You mean to say he made one speech to the membership of your
organization to which the press was excluded; is that what you
mean ?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes : that is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Something like the Food Conference.
Mr. Masaoka. Well, I wish ours were as big as the Food Conference.
But. it was a small meeting.
Mr. MuNDT. It was fully as secret ; was it not ?
Mr. Masaoka. I believe that a representative of the Military In-
telligence and Naval Intelligence were there at all of our meetings, at
our invitation, I think.
Mr. Stripling. Are you responsible for having crates of celery sent
to a number of Government officials?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes ; we have been doing that for years. We think
we have the best celery in the world in Salt Lake City, Utah, and we
have been doing that since 1932.
Mr. Stripling. Was that in connection with your public relations?
Mr. Masaoka. We have been doing it for years from the Salt Lake
Chapter ; yes. It is great celery.
Mr. Stripling. Would you care to name the people whom you sent
it to?
Mr. Masaoka. No. We, sent it to the President, of course; then to
the Secretary of State, I believe ; Secretaries of Navy and War, I think,
plus Mr. Myer, Mr. Baldwin, Mr. John Thomas, Mr. Clarence Pickett,
and Senator Thomas. I think that was about the list.
Mr. Eberharter. No Congi-essmen ?
Mr. Masaoka. Pardon me?
Mr. Eberharter. No Congressmen?
62626 — 43 — vol. lH 49
9598 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIE'S
Mr. Masaoka. At that time I didn't have the pleasure of knowing'
you gentlemen.
Mr. CosTELLO. Are you acquainted with a Mr. Nickerson, who was
reported in this report, this particular memorandum, to have gone out
to Manzanar?
Mr. Masaoica. I know of him.
Mr. CosTELLo. He was a missionary in Japan for about 25 years or
so, I understand.
Mr. Masaoka. I only know of him.
Mr. CosTELLo. You do not know where he might be at the present
time, do you ?
Mr. Masaoka. No ; I do not.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is there anything further that you care to say to the
committee, Mr. Masaoka?
Mr. Masaoka. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. I think the interrogation is finished.
Mr. Masaoka. Gentlemen, I would like to say this. We Americans
of Japanese ancestry, as I stated Saturday, are sincerely interested
in this country. We are interested in it not only for our own sake, but
for the sake of our children j^et to come. We are interested in it not
only because we just happen to be Japanese but because we think we
are part of the larger scene, a scene which has got to make America,
go and has got to make the world grow. We think we are a part of
that scene.
We believe that the solution to our problem lies, in many respects,
in the minority problem of the United States as well as the world,
because I cannot feel that the rest of the world can sit at a peace table
and discuss terms of peace where America cannot settle her own
minority problems. That is one point.
Secondly, and I wish to make this most emphatic, I believe, in the
main, the War Kelocation Authority has done a highly creditable job.
I believe that in the main they are pursuing their proper course. I
believe that they ought to have the applause of all good Americans.
Mr. Myer and his Authority are struggling against great difficulties,
against great odds, against great misunderstanding, and some, I am
afraid, difficulties caused by various vested interests.
As good Americans I think w6 ought to be interested in all phases,
because, after all, the American flag is not just one color. It is red,
white, and blue. It takes all three to make America. It takes every
nationality. It takes every individual to make America grow.
We who happen to have oriental features have a part to play in
that. We only ask that we be given that equal opportunity to do what
we feel and know to be right, and that is to be a better American in a
greater America.
Thank you, gentlemen.
Mr. CosTELLO. You made mention of some vested interests that the
War Relocation Authority has to oppose. To what did you have
reference?
Mr. Masaoka. To just general groups.
Mr. CosTELLO. Groups that are trying to thwart the activities of
W. R. A.?
Mr. Masaoka. I think so.
Mr. CosTELLO. I appreciate your having come here, and I trust the
necessity for your appearing here has not so impeded your military
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA AC?TIVITIE'S 9599
progarm as to set you back too far, so that you will be able to get along
all right. I suppose your next destination, then, will be back to Camp
Shelby.
Mr. Masaoka. Yes^sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock, at
which time Mr. Myer will be the next witness before the committee.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m., the committee was in recess until 2 p. m.
this day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The committee reconvened at 2 p. m., pursuant to the recess.)
Mr. CosTELLO. The committee will be in order. Mr. Stripling, will
you call the first witness ?
Mr. Stripling. The first witness is Mr. Dillon Myer.
TESTIMONY OP DILLON S. MYER, DIRECTOE, WAR RELOCATION
AUTHORITY
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Mr. CosTELLO. State your full name and title to the reporter.
Mr. Myer. Dillon S. Myer, Director, War Relocation Authority.
Mr. CosTELLO. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. When were you born?
Mr. Myer. September 4, 1891.
Mr. Stripling. What place?
Mr. Myer. Hebron, Ohio.
Mr. Stripling. Will vou give the committee a resume of youF
educational background ?
Mr. Myer. I went to country school throughout the grade-school
period. I went to high school in Hebron, Ohio. I took a 4-year
high-school course; graduated from the Ohio State University with a
degree of Bachelor of Science in Agriculture in 1914. I have a
Master of Arts degree from Columbia University in 1926.
I am sorry; did you ask for my education, or did you ask also for
my general training?
Mr. Stripling. I asked for your educational background and any-
thing that relates to it directly.
Mr. Myer. That completes my statement as to the formal training
I have had.
Mr. Stripling. I see.
Mr. Matthews. In what field did you major in taking your
master's degree at Columbia ?
Mr. Myer. In the field of education and economics.
Mr. Matthews. Was that degree from Teachers College?
Mr. Myers. Teachers College; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Now, will you state your occupational background,
Mr. Myer?
Mr. Myer. My first 2 years out of college I served as instructor and
assistant instructor in agronomy at the Agricultural Experiment
Station at the University of Kentucky.
The next 2 years I served as county agricultural agent for Vander-
burgh County at Evansville, Ind.
"9600 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIE'S
During the period of the latter part of 1917 and 1920, I was
assistant county agent located at Purdue University, at West Lafay-
ette, Ind.
From 1920 to 1922 I was county agricultural agent to Franklin
County, Ohio; the county seat, Columbus, Ohio.
From 1922 to 1933 I was district supervisor of extension work in
22 counties in northwestern Ohio; agricultural extension service,
Ohio State University.
From 1933 until April 1934 I was in charge of the agricultural
adjustment programs in the State of Ohio.
From 1934 to — I do not remember the exact dates, but throughout
tlie rest of 1934 I served as Chief of the Compliance Division of the
Agricultural Adjustment Administration — Compliance Section,
pardon me, of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, Wash-
ington, D. C.
For the period of the next year and a quarter or thereabouts, or
year and a half, I served as assistant director of the Program Plan-
ning Division of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration.
In September 1935 I joined the Soil Conservation Service in the
U. S. Department of Agriculture as Chief of the Division of Co-
operative Relations and Planning.
In 1936 I was made Assistant Chief of the Soil Consevation
Service. I will have to recheck that, too. I am not sure of the exact
date. It was either 1936 or 1937 when I served until December 15,
1942, at which time I was made Assistant Administrator, Agricul-
tural Administrator of the Agricultural Conservation and Adjust-
ment Administration in the Department of Agriculture, which posi-
tion I held until June 17, 1942, at which time I became Director of
the War Relocation Authority.
Mr. Stripling. You have held the position as Director from June
17 up until today?
Mr. Myer. June 17, 1942, until this date.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever traveled abroad?
Mr. Myer. No; with the exception of two or three short trips to
Canada.
Mr. Stripling. During your college career, did you ever major or
specialize in any particular languages?
Mr. Myer. I did not. The only language I had in college was 1
year of German, during my sophomore year, I believe, other than
the English language.
Mr. Stripling. Had you ever had any special training in matters
pertaining to the Japanese language or Japanese culture or customs
and habits?
Mr. Myer. Excepting the training that I have had in a rather
extensive degree during the last 12 months.
Mr. Stripling. You were appointed to the position as Director of
the War Relocation Authority by the President?
Mr. Myer. By the President of the United States; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You succeeded Mr. Milton Eisenhower ?
Mr. Myer. I did.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Eisenhower went with the O. W. I., I believe.
Mr. Myer. As Associate Director, I believe, of the Office of. War
Information.
Mr. Stripling. Dr. Matthews.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9601
Mr. CosTELLo. Did you have occasion at all, when you were at col-
lege, to study Japanese history or Japanese customs?
Mr. Myer. I do not remember that I had any occasion to study
Japanese customs or history during my college career.
Mr. CosTELLO. You never had any contact with Japanese people
prior to your assuming this position with the War Relocation Au-
thority?
Mr. Myer. Excepting those I made during my college career and
as I made in my business relationships throughout the years. There
were a few people I knew quite well who were of Japanese ancestry.
Mr. CosTELLo. But prior to that you made no particular study of
Japanese history or customs?
Mr. Myer. No ; I had not,
Mr. CosTELLO. Since you have had this position, have you made
any study of the history of the Japanese people or of their customs,
apart from what information might have come to you from handling
the position itself?
Mr. Myer. Naturally, Mr. Chairman, I have read a great many
things that I felt would be of value as background material for my
work as Director of the War Relocation Authority. I have read a.
good many pamphlets and booklets, as well as information which,
was brought to my attention that gave background training, and ani
insight of the culture of the Japanese race, and particularly the peo-
ple we're dealing with as evacuees in the relocation centers.
Mr. CosTELLo. In the course of that did you make any particular
effort to learn anything about the methods of espionage that the
Japanese had conducted in this country prior to Pearl Harbor?
Mr. Myer. I have gone into that very extensively with all of the
intelligence agencies with whom we have had very close contact
throughout the period of the last year ; yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLo. You have made a study of the Japanese subversive
organizations and their methods of carrying on espionage?
Mr. Myer. We have ; yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Proceed.
Mr. Myer. Insofar as that was possible.
Mr. Matthews. What was your finding with respect to the iden-
tity of the principal pro-Japanese organizations among the Japanese
in this country ?
Mr. Myer. I would much prefer that you ask the intelligence agen-
cies about that. In spite of the fact that I have gone into the matter,
I do not consider myself an expert in that field, in view of the fact
that most of the activities relating to the incarceration of aliens and
others connected with those organizations was carried out previous
to the time that I became Director of the War Relocation Authority,
so I woLdd not like to pose as an expert in that field, even though I
have gone into the matter in some detail.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have someone on your staff who is charged
or was charged with the function of knowing these organizations
that operated in the United States before Pearl Harbor ?
Mr. Myer. We have depended upon the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation, the Office of Naval Intelligence, and the Army Intelligence
to supply us that information relating to those particular activities,
because that is the field in which they operate. We have maintained
9602 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
very close liaison with all of those agencies, through members of
my staff.
Mr. Matthews. Have those agencies furnished you with a list of
organizations by name, considered by them to be subversive Japanese
organizations, or even suspect organizations?
Mr. Myer. They have supplied us with such lists from time to time
and given us the information regarding the organizations, as we
have requested that information ; yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have on file in the office of War Relocation
Authority a list of organizations that you accept as suspects on the
basis of reports furnished you by Federal investigative agencies?
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have any approximate recollection as to
how many such organizations there would be in that file?
Mr. Myer. No; I would not want to try to give that information
offhand. I could not give it to you offhand.
Mr. Costello. Does that list contain the names of individuals as
well as organizations?
Mr. Myer. We have from time to time been supplied with names
of individuals from the agencies. Just how many, I could not tell
you offhand, Mr. Chairman. I might add that we have had excellent
collaboration on the part of the intelligence agencies in checking in-
formation and supplying to us information when requested by the
War Relocation Authority, as to any records that they may have in
the files regarding individuals.
Mr. Matthews. Will you please give the committee a statement of
the set-up of the War Relocation Authority?
Mr. Myer. I will be very glad to.
Mr. Matthews. That is, hoAV it operates, where its main head-
quarters are, how it reaches out in the centers, and something of your
own duties with respect to administration.
Mr. Myer. The main headquarters of the War Relocation Authority
is at the present time in Washington, D. C. Our budget for this
coming fiscal year calls for approximately 250 employees at the na-
tional headquarters.
In addition to the Washington office, we have three small field of-
fices. In charge of each we have a field assistant director ; one at Little
Rock, Ark., one at Denver, Colo., and one at San Francisco, Calif.
These offices are very small offices and serve as staff offices in the Di-
rector's office, representing the Authority within the general areas
where they are located and assisting in the general supervision of
projects and other activities within their scope of activity.
Mr. Matthews. What is the total personnel in those staff offices?
Mr. Myer. I think the personnel will average about six per office
for each of the branch offices. I can supply you that in detail. I do
not have the chart with me.
In addition to those offices, we have 10 major relocation centers
that were established during the spring and summer of 1942, and one
isolation center.
The 10 relocation centers are located as follows :
Tule Lake, Calif., in Modoc County, near the Oregon line, 35 miles
from Klamath Falls, Oreg.
Manzanar, Calif., in the Owens Valley, about 200 miles from Los
Angeles.
UN- AMERICAN PROPAG.\NDA ACTIVITIES 9603
Colorado River center, which is located in the Colorado River
Indian Reservation near the California line, 17 miles south of Parker,
Calif.
Gila River relocation center on the Pima Indian Reservation, about
40 miles from Phoenix, Ariz.
Minindoka, about 18 miles from Twin Falls, Idaho.
Mr. Matthews. Is that M-i-n-i-n-d-o-k-a?
Mr. INIyer. That is rifjlit. I believe that is correct.
Mr. Matthews. It is misspelled here, then.
Mr. Myer, Well, I am not sure about the spelling. I always have
to ask my secretar}^ I always have to turn around and ask her. It
is an Indian name and I cannot remember it, but we will correct it
for the record.
Central Utah, near Delta, Utah, about 125 miles, I believe, south of
Salt Lake City.
Heart iNIountain, Wyo., about 70 miles from Codj^, Wyo.
Granada, in southeastern Colorado, about 7 miles from Lamar, Colo.
Rohrer, Ark., near McGehee, Ark.
Jerome, Ark., near the little town of Jerome, or perhaps Lake Vil-
lage would come nearer designating the area. Both of those Arkansas
projects are in the Arkansas delta near the Mississippi River.
Those are the major centers. The isolation center is located at
Leupp. I am not sure I can spell this; L-e-u-p-p or L-u-p-p, I am
not sure which, which is about 25 miles north and west of Winslow,
Ariz., in the Nava5o Indian Reservation.
Mr. Matthews, Why do you distinguish between that center and
the others?
Mr. Myer. That center was established as a center where we might
locate troublemakers who had caused difficulties within the centers,
because the}^ were interfering with the administration of the centers,
and they are cases where we did not feel that we could establish
enough evidence to put them through the civil courts, particularly
in the case of United States citizens. We could not send them to
internment camps as we could aliens.
We have an agreement with the Justice Department whereby if
we can develop a ticket on aliens that indicates that they are entering
into subversive activities or in any way carrying out agitation, that
we may send them a ticket and they will take them to internment
camps.
That is not true of citizens, because that would require court
procedure, and it is not always possible to get the evidence necessary.
That center, I might say, was established first at Mojave, Utah,
which was an old C. C. A. camp, following the incident referred to
at Manzanar, and which has been referred to in the press a good
many times. The first people in the group were the leaders in the
so-called Manzanar riot, and we have now approximately 60 people
at Leupp who are, most of them, citizens of the United States; a
large majority of them Kibei, who had most of their education in
Japan.
I might say there have been approximately also a hundred aliens,
in addition to those who were interned previous to the time the re-
location centers came into existence, that either were taken out of the
centers on Presidential warrant or taken into interment camps now
9604 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
under the jurisdiction of the Justice Department. At one time they
were under the jurisdiction of the War Department.
Mr. Stripling. How many of those 60 are from Manzanar?
Mr. Myer. I believe there were 16 out of the Manzanar group. I
would have to check the figures on that, but that is approximately
correct. I beg your pardon. There were 16 in the first group and
later on there were 10 more ; 26. May I continue ?
Mr. Matthews. Yes.
Mr. Myer, In addition to the field offices mentioned and the relo-
cation centers, and the isolation center, we have, since January 1,
established approximately 50 field offices throughout the country,
A^hose function is to assist in the relocation of evacuees in the normal
communities.
Our major and key offices in charge of that work are located at
Salt Lake City; Denver, Colo.; Kansas City, Mo.; Chicago; Cleve-
land, Ohio; and New York City.
Mr. Matthews. Approximately how many persons are employed
in those 50 field offices whose salary is obtained from the War Re-
location Authority?
Mr. Myer. I would have to check the figure officially for the record,
but as I remember the figures, it is approximately — let me figure just
a moment. I would say approximately 150 people.
Mr. Matthews. You did not give an estimate of the number of
employees of W. R. A. in the relocation centers. Are you in a posi-
tion to do that ?
Mr. M'i'ER. I would rather give you that figure later, but as I re-
member it, we are authorized to employ, I believe, 2,013 for this
coming year.
Mr. Mattheavs. In the 10 centers?
Mr. Myer. Within the 10 centers. That is appointed personnel,
not evacuees. Most of our work is done in the relocation centers by
evacuees and the key people, the heads of the divisions, are appointed
personnel, and about 50 percent of our school teachers are appointed
personnel. The rest of the work is done by evacuees, for the most
part.
Mr. Matthews. In a given center, what ratio is there between
appointed personnel and evacuees ?
Mr. Myer. Well, we have, of appointed personnel, approximately
2,000 in 10 centers, with approximately 100,000 people. About 2 per-
cent, I would say, was about the approximate figure we have.
Mr. Matthews. What I mean is this : You have approximately an
average of 200 personnel
Mr. Myer. An average of 200 appointed personnel. '
Mr. Matthews. In each of the centers?
Mr. Myer. In each of the centers. The centers will average about
10,000 in size.
Mr. Matthews. That will be the average then of the evacuees em-
ployed in each center?
Mr. Myer. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Matthews. That ratio compared with the other group.
Mr. Myer. The evacuees emploj^ed at each of the centers would
probably average about between four and five thousand. However,
that does not mean that those are all employed in administrative
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9605
•work. They are employed in af!:rieiilture, raisincr crops, in public
works, such as irrigation, drainage, clearing, land clearing and, of
course, they are employed in maintenance, road construction, and all
of the other activities, including firemen and the normal activities
that are carried on in any city.
I would like the opportunity later to re-check these figures more
accurately as we correct the record, but I am giving you offhand
information as I remember it.
Mr. Matthews. Then you have approximately 2,500 administrative
personnel in the entire W. K. A. set-up ?
Mr. Myer. Thereabouts, yes; approximately that many.
]Mr. Matthews. Including the assistant personnel in the field offices
and the regional offices?
Mv. Myer. I don't think we have quite that many, but we were
authorized to employ that many by our budget. It has been hard to
-employ people with the necessary qualifications during the war, but
I do not think the figure ever ran that high.
Mr. Matthews. What is your budget for the fiscal year?
Mr. Myer. 1944?
Mr. Matthews. Yes ; the total budget for the year.
Mr. Myer. $48,170,000. That is the figure that was sent to the
Congress by the Bureau of the Budget and the one which has been
passed by the Congress — not passed, I beg your pardon, which has
been agreed on by both the Senate and the House following the con-
ference. But the bill had not been passed last night. It is in the
war agencies bill. That is approximately $27,000,000 less than the
funds available to the War Relocation Authority last year, and ap-
proximately $5,000,000 less than the expenditures we will make through
1943.
We had made available to us something over $75,000,000 during
this fiscal year, and the indications are that we will expend approxi-
mately $53,000,000 of that amount.
Mr. Eberharter. That is, the year that has just passed?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. Matthews. What was that estimate, $53,000,000?
Mr. Myer. Approximately. We won't have that figure finally un-
til we get the books checked in about another 2 weeks.
Mr. Matthews. With an authorization of $75,000,000?
Mr. Myer. $75,469,000.
Mr. Matthews. What has been the proportionate reduction in the
number of those in the centers in these two corresponding periods.
Mr. Myer. Of course, we are just starting the new fiscal year. Our
€stimates for this fiscal year are based on 100,000 population; total
centers. We hope we will have much less than that. We already
have some less. The figure last Saturday night was 96,237. The
largest figure at any one time that we had in relocation centers was
107.616, I believe. That is very close. I want to recheck that figure
again.
There are more people for whom we have been responsible at dif-
ferent times, but never at any time was there any more than 107,616
in the centers.
Mr. Matthews. Does that indicate that approximately 10,000 or a
little more than 10,000 have never been released from the camps, as
of last Saturday night?
9606 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myer. As of last Saturday night, there- have been approxi-
mately 15,306. As a matter of fact, it was exactly 15,305 who were
on seasonal leave and indefinite leave. Of that group, 9,359 are on
indefinite leave. The rest of them are on seasonal leave, working
largely in the agricultural fields of the irrigated areas of the mid-
Mountain States and Western States, outside of Washington, Oregon,
and southern California.
Mr. Matthews. In selecting the personnel of the Washington office
of W. K. A., to what extent have you employed persons with an exten-
sive background of knowledge of Japanese affairs?
Mr. Mter. Not to a very large extent. We have a few people who
are specialists in that field who have devoted a great deal of their
lives to the study of the cultural background of the Japanese, both
within Japan and the Hawaiian Islands and on the west coast.
Mr. Matthews. What particular positions do they occupy ? What
type of positions do they occupy in the W. R. A. headquarters in
Washington ?
Mr. Myer. Mr. John M. Empie is the key specialist in that field.
He occupies the position as chief economic analyst, or chief analyst,
I believe they call it. I would have to get the exact title. I can't
remember the title of all my employees.
In the Washington office, in the Division of Community Services,
he has attached to his staff one assistant, I believe, and we have one
field assistant established for each of the projects, working directly
with his office.
We have a number of other people who have lived and worked
closely with the Japanese on the west coast, who occupy a number of
different positions throughout the Authority.
Our chief steward, for example, has been very closely associated
with the evacuees in California. The man who heads up our impor-
tant leave section, Mr. Robertson, has been very closely associated
with them in southern California, and a number of other people
throughout the Authority.
I would not attempt, off-hand, Mr. Matthews, to give you the exact
number of people who have been experienced. I might say that the
majority of the Washington staff were selected before I came into the
W. R. A. as its director. You must remember that 3 months had
passed. They key set-up in the organization was pretty well estab-
lished by Mr. Eisenhower. However, in our realinement of our or-
ganization last December, when we brought in a large number of
people from the San Francisco office, there were a number of people
attached to the staff in Washington at that time who had had a very
close relationship with the people on the west coast previous to evacu-
ation.
Mr. INIatthews. What are Mr. Robertson's initials?
Mr. Myer. I can't tell you his initials. Bill is his first name.
Mr. Mattheavs. Is his middle name Guy, or do you recall?
Mr. Myer. I do not recall.
Mr. Matthews. But his first name is Bill ?
Mr. Eberharter. Can you mention the name of the chief steward?
Mr. Myer. His name is Harding. Previous to evacuation, I think,
he was the steward of the Empire Hotel in San Francisco, which is
now owned bj^ the Treasury Department.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9607
Mr. Matthews. How many persons of Japanese ancestry are em-
ployed among these 250?
Mr. Myer. Twenty-five.
Mr. Matthews. In the Washington office?
Mr. Myer. Twenty-five.
Mr. Matthews. Do they clo any particular type of work or are
they setrregated through your administrative set-up ?
Mr. Myer. Most of them are employed as clerks and stenographers
and statistical clerks.
Mr. Matthews. Is any one of the 25 in a position that might be
called a policy-making position?
]\Ir. Myer. No ; none of them are.
INIr. ]\Iatthews. Do you recall offhand what the highest salary paid
to any one of the 25 would be?
Mr. Myer. No. I would have to check that. I have not gone into
that.
Mr. Matthews. How many of the 25 are persons who have been
in the relocation centers and have received indefinite leave?
Mr. Myer. I am not quite sure about my answer on that, but I
think all of them. There may be one or two exceptions to that.
Mr. Matthews. Do you have a list of those 25 persons with you
today ?
Mr. Myer. I do not have it with me, although I do have a list of
them. I will be glad to supply that for the record.
ISIr. ISIatthews. I wonder if you would please be good enough to
make a note so that we could have the names.
Mr. Myer. I have somebody making notes for me.
Mr. Matthews. The names of the 25 persons of Japanese ancestry
who are now employed in the War Relocation Authority in Wash-
ington. Are there any persons of Japanese ancestry who are em-
ployed in the regional offices?
Mr. Myer. Not in the Washington field director's office, that I
know of. There are some employed, however, in the field relocation
offices.
Mr. Matthews. That is, in the 50 field relocation offices?
Mr. Myer. That is right, particularly in the key offices. I know,
at least, there are one or two employed in Chicago. I am not sure
about the other offices. However, there has been authorization given
to employ one or two people from among the evacuees in each of
those offi-es; of the key offices.
Mr. Eberharter. In submitting the list of names, it would be very
easy to add the salary of each and the positions they hold.
Mr. Myer. I would be glad to.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Myer, what are the functions of the three re-
gional offices located at Little Rock, Ark., Denver, and San Fran-
cisco ?
INIi-. Myer. The functions are, one, that they have been supervis-
ing the work at the project; to see that the policies are being prop'-
erly carried out. We have report after report, rumor after rumor,
that we have to investigate. They assist in investigating these ru-
mors and are kept busy nowadays about three-quarters of the time
gathering facts relating to rumors that appear in public print. They
serve the public within the area by supplying information, attend-
9608 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ing meetings upon request, by working with the press, and supplying
information regarding policy. They carry out particular assign-
ments that may be made by the director on special jobs on which
they are authorized to go into the matter, and to take action, when
certain issues come up that require action quickly. I would say, in
general, those are the major functions of the three offices.
Mr. EnERHARTER. Do they have any work to do in handling the
property of the evacuees in the coastal area?
Mr. Myer. No. I am glad you brought that up. They do not. I
overlooked that function of the field officers in my statement regard-
ing the organization. We have property offices on the west coast.
Our major property office is at San Francisco. We have an office at
Los Angeles, one at Seattle, which are suboffices of the San Francisco
office. I tliink there are approximately 82 people employed in the
property offices.
Their function is to look after the property of the evacuees, in
the sense of rendering a service to the evacuees who cannot return
to the west coast. In a great many cases where they had property
leased, they have assisted in collecting the lease money or rental
money. In a great many cases we have to check into property that
has been broken into or property has been stolen.
I might say that we do not operate any property that belongs to
the evacuees, but we do render them a service in trying to maintain
their property in sound shape and to assist them in carrying out their
business, by serving as their agents.
We have a large numbsr of warehouses that are full of evacuees'
personal property that has been stored, which we look after and which
we ship to them if they ask for it to be shipped to them after they
relocate on indefinite leave. And, if they request it, we ship it to
them at the relocation centers. However, our policy is that we ship
property only once at our expense.
Mr. Costello. I presume the property of alien evacuees is under the
control of the Treasury Department, is it?
Mr. Myer. Any of the so-called blocked aliens, yes. They designate
the aliens whose property they felt should be under their supervision,
and in that case that is entirely under the Alien Property Division
of the Treasury Department. And, of course, we collaborate with
them in trying to — not in trying to, but in locating people for them
and keeping in touch with the aliens.
Mr. Costello. The Alien Property Custodian has not seized all of
the property of all of these Japanese aliens as yet ?
Mr. Myer. No. They have simply designated particular cases
where they have taken over the property, and those aliens are called
blocked aliens, I believe.
Mr. Costello. You do have charge, however, of all the property
belonging to those evacuees where the property is left on the west
coast ?
Mr. Myer. Well, yes.
Mr. Costello. You have supervision of it?
Mr. Myer. It depends on what you call "supervision of." We assist
them with their property problems if they request us to do so, yes;
otherwise, we let them handle their own business, which many of them
ere doing through attorneys and through giving friends power of
cttorney. They have not bothered us about that, but in those cases
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9609
•where they have requested assistance, we have given assistance to
them.
Mr. CosTELLo. Are you familiar with the legislation passed out in
California authorizing the State to exercise the right of eminent
domain in acquiring title to farm machinery?
Mr. Myer. Yes ; I am.
Mr. CosTELLo. Has your agency in any way cooperated with the
State out there to obtain control of any such machinery?
Mr, INIyer. We have taken no action as yet. We have told the
State agencies that we would cooperate with th?m in connection with
assisting in recovering that property. It has taken some months
to get an inventory of the large amount of property that was scat-
tered up and down the coast; and, we believe, scattered to 10 reloca-
tion centers, and some of that in other parts of the country.
I might say there has been a great deal of misinformation given
out regarding the amount of property, particularly tile agricultural
machinery that was available. I remember one case where we made
a survey. It was reported by telegram to some of you folks here
that there were 500 pieces of equipment in the Salinas Valley. The
chamber of commerce was a party to that report. We asked the
chamber of commerce to assign somebody to work with our men as
a committee to check it, and we found 5 pieces instead of 500. So,,
there has been a great deal of rumor and misinformation about that..
There is not a very large amount of agricultural machinery tliat
has not either been sold or leased or is not in operation. There is
some, but a very much smaller amount than has been indicated
by many of the rumors and the reports that have come out of the
different areas.
Mr. Costello. Do you know anything of the attitude of the eva-
cuees regarding the surrendering of their farm machinery ?
Mr. Myer. That is about as variable as you will find human nature
any place. Most of them, as I have already indicated, either dis-
posed of their equipment by sale or by lease or by loan to friends
before they left, or after they left the area. There are a small
number who are trying to retain their equipment, as I think you
will find in any group of people. Some of them have sold their
equipment recently and others have leased their equipment recently,
so that it is quite variable.
Mr. Costello. It was indicated to me before I left California, in
an effort to put this new law into operation, where notice had been
served upon the Japanese owners with intent to acquire title to theii
farm equipment, that during the period in which they received the
notice, at the time when they might exercise control over it, in most
cases the machinery was disposed of, either sold or title transferred^
and it was removed from the State.
Do you have any information regarding that ?
Mr. Myer. No; I do not. I do know that there has been some
machinery moved from the State, on the part of the evcauees who
have established farming operations in certain of the other States,
and have asked that their machinery be shipped to them.
I know of one case in Illinois that got a great deal of publicity
back 2 or 3 months ago, where they had their machinery shipped. I
think 13 people were involved. Their machinery was shipped from
Sacramento to them. I do not know how many cases there have
9610 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
been. I will be glad to check into that. I think I can get the facts
if you are interested in it.
Mr. CosTELLO. But your property custodians out there have never
attempted to make any inventory of the available farm machinery?
Mr. Mter. Oh, yes. We have attempted to make the inventory
and I think we have a pretty accurate inventory at the present time.
It took some time, however, to get that inventory. We asked the
local war boards and local chambers of commerce, in most cases, to
assist us in making that inventory in the areas where the machinery
was stored, and we have also taken the inventory at the relocation
centers as a double check against the facts that we had at the other
end of the line. Just like any kind of a census, you are not quite sure
you have the last piece, but I think we have a pretty adequate in-
ventory now.
Mr. CosTELLo. Is that inventory available here in Washington?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLo. Would you produce that for us, please?
Mr. Myer. I will be glad to supply the information for the record.
(The material referred to is contained in the committee file as an
exhibit.)
Mr. Costeixo. There has been no representation made to you that
the Japanese were attempting to remove this machinery or disposing
.of it in order to avoid the operation of the California law, has there?
Mr. Myer. I have heard no such cases. There may be, but I have
not heard of them.
Mr. CosTELLO. You would not know whether some of the machinery,
or the title to it, had been transferred from the existing owners to
others over in an adjoining State?
Mr. Myer. No; I have not heard about that. During the past 3
weeks the man who has charge of the property work here in Wash-
ington, and who keeps contact with that, has been in the field and
has just returned. He is ill at the moment, so I have not had a
chance to talk with him since he returned from the field. He came
back and immediately went to bed, and I do not know how soon he will
be available, but I hope in the next 2 or 3 days.
Mr. Matthews. You spoke a moment ago of the evacuees dis-
posing of their property to friends prior to evacuation. Did you
have reports of any wholesale disposing of such properties to strangers
who were imposing upon the Japanese, because they were about to be
evacuated?
Mr. Myer. We had a good many reports, and some of them have
been authenticated,^ of course, where people tried to take advantage
of the situation at the time they evacuated; and, some of them, I
think, did take advantage of them.
Mr. Matthews. There have been reports, for example, of Japanese
business institutions being put under the pressure of the moment to
dispose of their business at 5 cents or 10 cents ,on the dollar. Have
your offices out there gone into that question ?
Mr. Myer. We have, where we have been requested to by the evac-
uees, to assist them in collection cases, and that type of thing.
I might say that we did not handle the property problem until after
the evacuation was pretty well completed. The Farm Security Ad-
ministration and the Federal Reserve Bank, you may remember, were
designated by the War Department to assist the evacuees during the
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9611
early period of the evacuation with their property problems, to assist
them in disposing of property if they cared to or in storing the prop-
erty and any other service. We did not take over the property work
until about mid-August of 1942.
The early part of that work was carried forward by those agencies,
and there were about 750 cases where the Farm Security Administra-
tion had made loans to people who were leasing property from evacuees
^nd others, that they continued to supervise for some time. 1 think
most of those are probabl}' cleaned up at the present time; so that we
were not as close in touch with the movement at the time when most of
the sales were taking place.
Our experience has been limited to the period from August, 1942,
up to the present time; and, of course, we have come in contact with
cases where fraud was charged, and where you get all kinds of charges
made as regards dealings between evacuees and others who had pur-
chased or leased their properties.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know to what extent the evacuees in the
relocation centers feel that they were the victims of fraud in such
property transactions? Is that a widespread feeling?
jSIr. ]Myer. I have heard there were a great many cases where people
feel very much embittered and feel that was true because of the hurried
situation, that they felt they were called upon to dispose of their prop-
erty in a hurry, and in doing so they sacrificed their property. How
many feel that way, I would not know, but I do know that there are
people who do feel that way.
Mr. ^Matthews. Have j^our investigations of the cases of such fraud
indicated that their feeling was justified; that there had been whole-
sale fraud?
Mr. ]\Iyer. I would not want to make a statement on it as to the
wholesale fraud. I have heard of cases where our property officers felt
there had been fraud or attempted fraud.
Mr. Costtello. Was this in an endeavor to cooperate with the
evacuees ?
Mr. M'iT:R. That is right.
Mr. Costello. Not merely to bring actual suits against the persons
accused ?
Mr. Myer. That is right. And, there have been some suits in some
cases brought in the courts already.
Mr. Matthews. Now, you mentioned the figure of 2,013 on the ad-
ministrative staffs of the relocation centers. Are any of those in-
dividuals persons of Japanese ancestry?
Mr. Myer. I don't know. There are no evacuees or no people of
Japanese ancestry en the War Relocation Authority pay roll in reloca-
tion centers at a salary above $19 a month.
Mr. Costello. Is the salary ceiling a limitation enacted by Con-
gress ?
Mr. Myer. No.
Mr. Costello. ^Yho placed that regulation there?
Mr. Myer. That was probably established jointly with Congress in
connection with the first budget that was established for the operation
of the War Relocation Authority a year ago. That figure was given
as the top figure that would be utilized for wages or salary, or what-
ever you want to call it, and has been adhered to throughout the
period of 1943.
9612 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. In other words, that $19 salary could be raised or
lowered by your direction?
Mr. Myer. I don't think it could now. It could legally, yes, but
actually I think it would be very impractical thing for the Director
of the War Relocation Authority to do, when he has just made rejDre-
sentation to the Appropriations Committees in both the House and
the Senate that that is what we propose to pay, and to do it without
at least taking it up with the committee members and having agreement
on their part. Tliat is sound procedure to do so.
Mr. CosTELLO. You feel that the $19 limitation is a satisfactory
wage scale?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, we have in these centers people of all
economic levels as you would among any 100,000 people. There are
many, many people that feel that that is a very, very meager and
low wage.
There are people in the centers that in my judgment are doing
better, perhaps, than they were doing on the outside. I should say
that it is not a satisfactory wage and, certainly, as wages go, during
this wartime period. Buit, I do think that when you consider the
fact that food is supplied, even though the top figure is 45 cents a
day, with housing, and even though I think you will agree it is not
very good wlien you have an apartment 20 by 25 feet each way for
a family of five, with no partitioning, in a theater operation type of
barracks, and with medical care and schools, of course, being sup-
plied, it presents a somewhat different situation.
There are certain people with large families that are doing reason-
ably well, if they have three or four people in the family, working
at the center. There are a lot of other people that are living off of
their savings so long as they stay in the centers, in addition to what
they are getting. We have tried to strike at a minimum figure that
would provide a basic minimum living for the people who, for one
reason or another, have to stay in the centers for the duration.
Certainly, I would not consider it a good salary for professional
people like doctors, of which we have many in the centers, who have
spent a great amount of money in getting their education and who are,
some of them, spending as much as most of their salary in keeping
up with the current literature in their field.
I might add that prisoners of war are paid, when they are paid, 80
cents per day. Twenty-five days a month would make $20 a month, so
that prisoners of war, if they work 25 days a month, are paid more
than the doctors in our relocation centers, and get better food.
Mr. CosTELLO. The evacuees are not considered prisoners of war;
are they ?
Mr. Myer. They are not. I distinguish between them. If they
were, they would get better food and better pay than they are now
getting.
Mr. CosTELLO. Of course, in your centers, all the evacuees, whether
they work or not, receive equally the housing, their food, and medical
treatment ?
Mr. Myer. And schooling; that is correct. The minimum of our
policy is to provide food, housing, schools through the grades and high
school, and medical care for everyone, regardless of whether they
work or not.
UN-AJVIERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9613
Mr. CosTELLO. The result is then that the $19 a month payment
Mr. Myek. That is spending money.
Mr. CoSTELLo (continuing). Is not really an incentive to them to
engage in any great amount of work.
Mr. Myer. No. No ; it simply provides a wage for people to have
some money to buy tooth paste and other necessities that they feel are
essential, and to get away from out and out grants of funds and to
encourage the people to work, if they care to do so.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have you found that many of the evacuees have
refused to work because of the fact that the wage scale was not suf-
ficient to justify their going out and performing labor?
Mr. Myer. Not many. There are some that refuse to work, but I
think the percentage that refuse to work is something less than 4 per-
cent on the average. I would like to correct that figure, because I don't
remember the exact figure. It is a very small figure that have refused
to work.
As a matter of fact, a larger proportion, I think, of your population
have been working in the centers than do on the outside. I won't put
it that way, because the whole family worked, if they were in agri-
culture. But, most of those above 14 years of age, when they were out
of school, including many of the wives, are working if they can find
work that they can do in the centers, in order to keep busy, be occu-
pied, as well as to assist in the center operations.
Mr. CosTELLO. But the evacuees have to provide their own clothing ;
do they not ?
Mr. Myer. Those who work get a clothing allowance in addition to
their other pay, and the highest figure on that is $45 a year ; that is, in
the northern centers, where they require heavier clothing, and for
those who are doing heavy work, they get a little larger amount. As
somebody put it recently, the men get more than the women in that
case, which is not unusual, but we are not providing any party dresses
out of $45 a year.
Mr. MuNDT. What is the minimum age at the camps for which you
pay $12 to $19?
Mr. Myer. We follow the general labor standards regarding child
labor as are followed throughout the rest of the country. We follow
the same laws that are followed generally.
Mr. MuKDT. On the subject of wages, Mr. Myer, what is the policy
of the W. R. A. ? What is the policy of the War Relocation Author-
ity relocation program from the standpoint of wages paid to Jap-
anese evacuees going into private employment? Are they made
available at prevailing rates in that locality or considered as farm
labor?
Mr, Myer. When people leave the relocation centers, they conduct
their own business. Our advice to evacuees going out is simply this :
"Do not ask for more nor take less than other people are getting."
We have no policies on it excepting just that.
We present all offers that people insist on. We present them.
We are sometimes told that they want only good people at that price.
Well, we do not try to police the wage scale of evacuees going out
on relocation. We do not consider that our business. We have
been asked to make loans to evacuees, and we told them we didn't
want a mortgage on an3'body. We are not interested in institution-
62G2G — r^ — vol. 15 oO
9614 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
alizing ourselves in business, neither do we want to be paternalistic
in following them up and seeing what kind of wages they receive.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is there some tendency on the part of private em-
ployers to try to get these Japanese evacuees at less than the pre-
vailing wage scale?
INIr. Myer. Yes; we found some of them, the same as anyone else.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is there a tendency on the part of the internee, the .
Japanese internee, because of his eagerness to get out
Mv. Myer. The evacuee.
Mr. CosTELLO. To get back into private life, to accept these sub-
standard wages?
Mr. Myer. That varies in some cases, yes, in this respect : We had
very well trained people who were willing to become domestics for
the time being, in order that they might relocate in an area where
they could, by having a frank arrangement with their employer, look
around and try to establish themselves in their professional field, in
the field of their skill.
One of the best newspaper girls I know came to Chicago as a do-
mestic. She wrote some of the best editorials in our Los Angeles
Free Press before she left the center following the incident we had,
and she lias been living in Chicago for some time with an arrange-
ment with the people she is living with that if she finds a position
to her liking, she may leave at any time. So, we have had cases
of that type.
Generally speaking, however, there has been no tendency to break
the labor market on the part of the employer. I would say there
has been the other tendency.
If I might pay tribute to the high wage scale of the State of Cali-
fornia, the home State of the chairman, the wages are generally higher
in California than in many of the areas where these people are trying
to locate, particularly the Midwest. And, we have had a real problem
getting them to understand that, in many cases. They want the same
wage scale and the same standards generally that they have been used
to. That is perfectly natural. Consequently, we have had a problem
of getting evacuees to accept wages that were offered which were
considered prevailing wages in other communities.
Mr. CosTELLO. By and large, Avould you say that the agricultural
workers and the domestic workers, those doing menial tasks, are get-
ting ai:)proxim.ately the prevailing wages?
Mr. Myer. I would say so; yes, sir. There is, as j^ou know, an
opportunity to secure pretty good wages in those fields nowadays,
because there are not many people available for it, and consequently
they are getting, I think, prevailing wages, generally speaking.
Mr. Matthews. How does that wage compare with this $19 a month
wage in the centers?
Mr. Myer. Well, of course, wages vary, depending on the contract
made' between the employer and the employee, in this case. But, of
course, it is a great deal higher than it is in the relocation centers, a
great deal higher.
Mr. Matthews. I know that varies. I thought you might have
some approximate average as a basis for comparison.
Mr. Myer. No ; I do not, because the people who have gone out from
the centers have gone out in all kinds of activities and, consequently,
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9615
the wases have varied, depending on the contract, as I say, between
the employer and the employee. I do not have any average fij^ure. As
a matter of fact, in view of the fact that we take no responsibility for
wages, we do not even keep records of the wages that are secured on
the outside, so avc have no way of knowing what the average would be.
Mr. Matthews. You stated that you had made representations to
committees of both Houses of Congress on the $19-a-month wage.
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. Matthews. Is that policy of yours, of the Authority, based in
part on the idea that keeping it at that figure will serve as an induce-
ment for persons to api^ly for leave; indefinite leave?
Mr. MvER. It was not at the time that the figure was set, to begin
with. That figure was set before I came into the Authority. H(.'W-
ever, I would say that that is a good reason for keeping it there, Mr.
Matthews, in my judgment.
Mr. Matthews. Your policy is to get as many persons out as rap-
idly as they can be suitably placed in the relocation ?
Mr. Myer. It is our policy to get as many people relocated in nor-
mal communities, that are eligible on our rolls, as we can possibly
get out in as short a time as possible. We believe that is sound from
the United States Government standpoint, and we are pushing that
program as our major effort at the moment.
JNIr. ^NIatitiews. This figure of $19 is sort of an economic induce-
ment to expedite that movement
Mr. ]Myers. In reverse.
Mr. Matthews, To expedite that movement away from the centers ?
Mr. Myer. It was not set up in the first place with that in mind,
however.
Mr. Matthews. But you adhered to that, in part at least, for that
purpose ?
Mr. Myer. Well, I suggested no change in it, because I felt that
the figure was high enough, as long as we were making relocation
centers.
Mr. Eberharter. I would like to have you give the committee as
clear an explanation as you can for the reasons behind the setting of
this particular sum of $16 and $19. To some people that may seem
like just an arbitrary figure arrived at. What I think the committee
would like to know is how that figure came to be agreed upon ? What
were the reasons, the considerations? What were the reasons and
considerations for adopting those particular figures?
Mr. Myer. I am sorry. I cannot give you the detailed considera-
tions that were kept in mind at the time that figure was arrived at,
because I was not present when that first budget was prepared.
Mr. Eisenhower and other members of his staff worked on that
problem and worked with the Members of Congress on it, and in the
hearings, the first hearing before the House committee, on the first
appropriations which were held, I think, in May of 1942, I think,
that figure was established, and it was established before I came into
the Authority, in mid-June; so, I could not go back and give you the
historical background.
I might say this: That I have heard one of the considerations at
the time was that the top figure was less than the American private
9616 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
was getting in the American Army. That is about the only thing
that I did hear about it. At that time, you see, the Army pay had
not been raised to $52 from $21, and that was one of the considera-
tions that I am sure was in the minds of some of the people that
helped establisli it. But, I think it was arrived at by making certain
computations ;!s to the cost of certain minimum necessities that people
would need to have, a minimum reasonable living compared with
standards of living within the centers; those little necessities that
you and I feel we have to have ever;^ day, that were not supplied in
our basic subsistence had to be purchased. They not only had to
be purchased for the individuals who were the adults in the family,
but they had to be purchased for the youngsters and, consequently,
they tried to arrive at the figures.
Now, the figures are $12 and $16 and $19. The bulk of these evac-
uees are working for $16. The $12 figure was more or less an ap-
prentice figure; people breaking in on new jobs and learning new
types of work. Those that had never clone new types of work be-
fore, they received $12 until they became skilled at it and then they
moved into the $16 class, and it meant some differential between that
skilled group and common labor and other types of labor.
Mr. Eberharter. In other words, the maximum amount that would
be paid these evacueees now being employed was arrived at by figur-
ing what perhaps the minimum would be for the necessities they re-
quired.
Mr. Mter. Yes. That figure was set up in order to provide some
compensation for work done, and at the same time to try to provide
some of those little necessities that have to be purchased with cash
and were not supplied by the Government. Soap is one of the very
common things and they use a lot of it, because they are very cleanly
people, and one of the biggest problems we had to begin with was the
insistence that we supply soap. Somebody there started supplying it.
We had a terrible time breaking off of that little trick.
Mr. Eberharter. The maximum, in other words, has been made to
comply with the minimum necessities?
Mr." Myt:r. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Myer, do you really feel, though, that $19 a
month is adequate, an adequate wage for a person running a bull-
dozer out in that section of Parker?
Mr. Myer. Of course I don't.
Mr. Costello. Have you been able to get sufficient workers out
there to do that heavy type of work under those climatic conditions?
Mr. Myer. Well, they tell me that they have not down there, and
that has varied from time to time. I would say this, that any change
in the wage scale, to put them on a private wage scale basis, would
certainly interfere and interrupt the relocation program.
Mr. Costello. You feel the wage scale should be maintained at that
level in order to definitely induce the evacuees to leave the centers and
seek outside relocation?
Mr. Myer. That is one of the reasons I think it should be main-
tained there, as long as we have the relocation centers. There are
other reasons why it did not seem desirable to change it. When you
begin to change your wage scale, you have the matter to work out
with Congress again, as to your reasons for it. You have the old
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9617
problem of changing your whole administrative set-up which is geared
to that wage scale. It may be, however, that the war won't last too
many years and that we won't have to meet that problem over too
long a period.
Mr. CosTEixo. If it is the desire to encourage the release of evacuees
from the centers, explain the reason for their not putting in more
land in cultivation in the Poston center?
Mr. MirER. That is part of it; yes. I might say, at the Poston
center, they are not up as yet to the amount of ground that they are
authorized to put into cultivation, and they won't reach that for some'
time to come. There are 5.000 acres to put in cultivation and it will
be some time yet when they will be ready for that amount of acreage.
Mr. CosTELLO. It is my understanding that there are about 300 acres
actually in operation at this time.
Mr. Myer. That is right, because that is all they have been able to
get cleared and ready for operation. There will be, I think, 1,400
acres under cultivation by this fall, when they put in their winter
vegetables. They are authorized to clear 5,000 acres, which will take
some time.
Mr. CosTELLO. I understood it was five or six thousand acres that
was in the process of being cleared and leveled, and so on.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLo. That is an approximate figure.
INIr. JSIyer. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. So that they may have diflSiculty to actually put any
individual unit into cultivation?
Mr. Myer. That is correct. But, of course, they are picking their
best land, naturally.
Mr. CosTELLO. It is my understanding that ultimately they intend
to put about 20,000 acres more under cultivation in the Poston area.
Mr. Myer. The Indian Service would like to put in 20,000 acres
and pay private wages to do it. I am not too familiar with their
plan, however. They have had a plan for some time, though. On
the other hand, we believe that is contrary to the policy of the War
Relocation Authority, with its people, and where they can pay the
men more than the relocation centers.
Mr. Costello. The W. R. A. envisages the utilization of these
Japanese people in the centers, on the other hand?
Mr. Myer. Excepting for subsistence and excepting on jobs that
are supplemental subsistence jobs, if we cannot get them relocated on
the outside. Now, we will try to provide work in the way of devel-
opment of land and other types of work if it is impossible for them
to go out. And there is plenty of work at Poston yet for those that
are still there today, as well as there is at most of the other centers.
Mr. CosTELEO. There is no desire, then, on the part of the W. R. A.
to make each center self-sustaining in the way of producing farm
products and commodity items.
Mr. Myer. We are making each center self-sustaining. That is
our program. We are providing the basic subsistence that is neces-
sary for eacli of those centers wherever we have land enough to do it,
both as to crops and livestock, wherever it is feasible. But we are not
planning to produce crojDs for the market at these centers. We think
that these people can make a better contribution by going on the out-
9618 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
side and helping to grow crops, working with farmers who are
already in the business, than to try to develop temporarily a new busi-
ness on land where it would probably take 5 years to develop 20,000
acres of land. They are not making any very definite contribution
then to the food supply by going ahead with land development that
won't get under cultivation for some time.
Mr. CosTELLO. Could not the land-utilization program at Poston
be speeded up, if land could have been put in cultivation, say, by this
fall ; a thousand or two thousand acres or more ?
Mr. Mter. It will become 1,400 acres, as I understand it, and it
might be speeded up a little more. Had you had the incentive of
$10 a day instead of To cents a day or 60 cents a day, I think it could
have been speeded up quite a bit. However, I don't believe the W. R. A.
could have stood the pressure of having paid wages on the nor-
mal scale; to have land developed over in Poston at that wage scale..
Mr. CosTELLO. Was the adequate equipment and machinery avail-
able in order to put this land in cultivation ?
Mr. Myer. Well, Poston probably had more equipment than prob-
ably most of the other centers had had that far. I won't say it was
adequate, because there has been great difficulty on the part of anyone
in getting adequate equipment, as you men know ; farmers and every-
one else.
If you had heard the furore about the equipment that we did take
down there, which was purchased for the Salt River Valley project
pJong about May or June of last year, you would have said that they
must have had about all the equipment in Arizona at Poston, because
we spent weeks getting the facts together on that and explaining to
the public that we were not ruining all of the cultivated land in the
Salt River Valley, because one or two commercial operators did sell
us their equipment and it went to Poston, most of it. So, I won't
say it was adequate, no.
There isn't any engineer that ever has adequate equipment, but I
would say it was fairly adequate, and they have been doing a g-ood
job and getting results. They have built a large ditch down there,,
and I think they built it faster than they would have in normal
times. They have had pretty good support in getting the job done.
Mr. CosTELLO. Under the problem you have outlined for W. R. A.,
the policy, you have issued regulations prohibiting the internees sell-
ing any of their farm products; have you not?
Mr. Mter. No; we have not. We have simply stated it is not the
policy to go into commercial production ; that it is the policy to
estimate our own needs, to put in the acreage that is necessary for the
subsistence of the centers, and if we, in so doing, miscalculate and
have additional supplies that cannot be utilized by the centers, within
season, they will be sold on the market, as would anyone else. How-
ever, we have not dictated the policy of going into commercial pro-
duction.
Mr. CosTELLO. It was my understanding that at the Gila River
project an excessive supply was produced there at the center, more
than they could use, and they were unable to send it out to other
centers and could not even ship any of it to the State prisons or any
other source.
Mr. Myer. The}^ had a problem like that for a time, largely because
they could not get shooks, crates, packing, which were required for
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9619
shipment. We could not get those because the commercial growers
turned on so much heat against the Japanese having anything of that
sort, that they just Avould not sell them to us.
Mr. CosTELLo. Do you not feel that a more extensive agricultural
program on the part of these centers would be in order in view of
the attempt on the part of the Government to increase farm pro-
duction throughout the country?
• Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, last fall we had 9,800 people helping to
harvest sugar beets through the harvest season. This fall I hope we
will have twice that many, if they are available.
Now, it is a question whether or not we are going to produce vege-
tables by the Government by bringing in new land, which will take
time, or whether we will cooperate with the people who are already
in the farming business and get these people shifted into normal
communities, where it will not cost the Government money to main-
tain them. I will admit that that is a matter of policy that ;70u
might argue either way. "We have adopted the policy of maintaining
our agricultural program on a subsistence basis at the center and
urging the folks who were skilled in agriculture, beyond what we
need there, to move out in the normal communities and to work with
other farmers in producing crops where we have a great need for
labor.
Mr. CosTELLO. Has there been any representation made to you
through labor organizations prohibiting the selling of your products
from the internment camps in the open market?
Mr. ^Iyer. Yes; we have had representations made through Con-
gressmen and by labor organizations. "We have had representations
made bv farmers objecting to developinir the agricultural business.
"We have had objections made bv industrialists against developing any
industry at the center. They all have been represented, as you might
remember; human nature reactions.
Mr. CosTELLO. Have those representations helped you to formulate
your proofram as to policy?
Mr. Myeij. I presume they have. Usually you are affected bv your
environment, generally speakincr. We are in a position which we
try to get alonjr with people as best we can, because everybody likes
to shoot at the Jananese.
Mr. CosTELLO. In view of the fact that these Japanese had nil been
gainfullv employed prior to their evacuation, do you think there is
any morit to these objections on the part of the organizations or
industrialists?
Mr. ^Tyer. In some cases there was no merit whatsoever. In some
cases there was probably merit ; I mean, at least, they felt there was
merit.
I might say that we have very little of it because of the fact that
we, as we developed our policy during last summer and fall, and as
we made our determinations, felt that our major job was relocation
and not establishing an institutionalizing industry at the center. "We
do not have many arguments M'ith industry or with labor about that
policy,
"We are producing at relocation centers, in addition to our nsrri-
cultural products, manv other products in the industrial field which
we can utilize at the centers for subsistence purposes, such as furni-
ture for schools, clothing for use in the hospitals, uniforms, and dif-
9620 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ferent types of clothing that are needed in centers of that type that
are essential to the everyday workday program in your large cities.
There are a number of other activities of that type that have been
helpful.
In addition to that, we have had certain other types of industrial
activity. For example, at Poston and at Gila, during recent months,
we have completed about 150,000,000 square feet of camouflage net
for the Army. At the present time we are making silk screen
posters for the Navy at one of the centers. At another place we are
makintr small ship models to be used in instructional work, in the
battleship construction program, for the training of their personnel;
for use by the Navy in their instructional program. There are
certain activities of that tj^pe going on that require sj^ecial skills.
However, I want to repeat that we are trying to establish our
program in such a way so as to encourage every person who is eligible
to relocate outside of the centers. We think that that is essential
from the standpoint of the evacuees themselves. We think it is essen-
tial from the standpoint of the United States Government. We think
that they can become better Americanized in normal communities
than they can in relocation centers. We think they can make a better
contribution to the manpower program today, which is badly needed.
We think, furthermore, that bringing up twenty-five or thirty
thousand youngsters in relocation centers is a bad thing. Your
family controls are lacking as compared with what you have in the
normal home. They are being fed in mess halls. There are no family
ties. Youngsters who normally worked with the family, in their
every-day pursuits, or in farming, have nothing to do now except to
go to school if they are below 14 years of age. And, some of those
above 14 years of age do not work full time.
We are developing a delinquency problem, as you would expect
under such conditions. I don't think serious damage has been done
this year but it will be done if it goes on there year after year. There
are opportunities for more Japanization when you have all Japanese
living together than, you do if you have the normal cross section of the
public and the relationships with the normal public.
I do not think the United States wants Indian reservations after
this war is over where we keep Japanese. I think we have a better
opportunity to establish these people in normal pursuits when the
manpower situation is such that their skill should be utilized anyhow
than we will after the war when the boys come back.
And, I think, furthermore, that the United States is fighting for
what we call democracy and for citizenship, wherever you find it,
in regard to racial ancestry, and I think we ought to help the eligible
citizens and the law-abiding aliens who have not maintained their
contacts with Japan to realize that this country is what they thought
it was, a place for freedom of speech, freedom of activity, and rea-
sonably equal treatment.
Gentlemen, that is what we are basing our program on.
Mr. MuNDT. What arrangements have you made with the Indian
River Service for the use of this reservation ?
Mr. Mter. That arrangement was made previous to the time
W. R. A. came into existence, by the Army. They are serving as
agents of the War Relocation Authority in that particular center.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9621
That is the only center ^vhere wc have that arrangement. They are
handling the administration. They are allotted the funds and operate
the program under our policies. They follow our policy.
Mr. MuNDT. What compensation do the Indians get for the use of
this reservation?
Mr. MvER. I couldn't tell you oflfhand. There is a contract between
the Indian Service and ourselves regarding the use of that land. I
would have to get you the figure on that later.
Mr. INIuxDT. There was something said in Los Angeles about that.
jNIr. Mytr. Well, we have the agreement on file.
Mr. MuNDT. They said they thought they would be compensated
because the land was all to be reclaimed. Now, if your program is
not to reclaim the land, I am afraid that those poor Indians will not
be properly paid.
Mr. Mter. Well, I think they are pretty well paid already. If
you take a look at the big ditch and the structures that were put in
to irrigate the land from the river down there, that in itself was
quite a bit of work. That has been done within the last 12 months.
It is practically completed now.
The fact that they will have at least 5,000 acres, with the sagebrush
cleared and leveled, is pretty good compensation for 2 or 3 years*
use of the desert land of the type they had there, and I do not believe
they are going to be beaten very badly by having had the center
there. And, I do not believe you do either.
Mr. MuNDT. The Indians think so.
Mr. Mter. Sure. Indians are like everybody else.
Mr. MuNDT. Being a member of the Indian Affairs Committee, I
can anticipate the Indian agents coming in with claims against the
United States some day, so I wish you would include in the record
whatever contract you have with the Indian Service.
Mr. Myer. There is nothing in the contract that indicates that we
will develop a particular amount of land; I mean, there is no set
policy. It simply indicates that we will pay wages for land develop-
ment when other work is not available to help get that job done and
in order to provide subsistence for the center.
Mr. MuNDT. There is no stipulated figure ?
Mr. Myer. There is no stipulated figure. There is no stipulated
figure on any of that land we have leased for development, because
we didn't know whether this program would be in effect for 6 months
or a year or 6 years; consequently, there was no such agreement.
Mr. Muxdt. Do you know whether the city of Los Angeles is
receiving any remuneration for the use of their land abandonment?
Mr. Myer. Indeed, they are.
Mr. Mundt. Tell us about that.
Mr. Myer. Up to now it is about $32 an acre, but I will have to
check that figure. It is a very high figure for land and water, and
I thhik that we are reducing that figure.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that land, in your opinion, worth $32 an acre more
than the land at Poston?
Mr. INIyer. No: it is not worth as much as the land at Poston,
but the contract had been entered into previous to the time that we
took over. We are now realining the contract there, and I think,
Ijerhaps, an adjustment will be made.
9622 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. You, see, I am going along with your theory of trying
to make the relocation centers self-sustaining.
Mr. Myer. Well, we are in the process of realining our Manzanar
agreement also.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like, Mr. Chairman, to have Mr. Myer put
into the record the contract at Poston and the contract at Manzanar.
Mr. Myer. I will be very glad to do so.
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Myer, when was this program of resettlement
adopted by the W. R. A. as a part of their policy?
Mr. Myer. July 20, 1942, was the first administrative instruction
which was issued. However, previous to that time, I believe in
May, a policy was established which provided that some of the young
people who had been in college in the West might relocate in other
colleges throughout the country, and a college relocation committee
was established sometime during May. I think that was the first
step.
Previous to that time, however, or about the same time, in May, by
agreement between the War Department and the W. R. A. which was
worked out with a score of companies and with the farmers in the
areas, we started recruiting, mostly in assemblj'' centers which were
under the supervision of the War Department, people to go into the
irrigated areas of the mid-Mountain States and in the Midwest, to do
crop work in the spring of 1942. About 1,700 went out, mostly from
the assembly centers during the spring and early summer of 1942.
That was the first step of a really major relocation program.
Mr. CosTELLO. Those that went out then did not go to relocation
centers ?
Mr. Myer. They did not. Some are still working in the same
areas ; working right where they were a year ago in May.
Mr. CosTET^LO. When you speak of the War Department, do you
mean the military heads of the War Department or the civilian end
of it, which is under the Secretary's office, and so on?
Mr. Myer. No ; I am talking about the War Department, the West-
ern Defense Command, which had charge of all the assembly centers
from the period of about March or April — well, up until varying
times; from June on until November. They supervised the people
in the assembly centers. We did not secure even 50 percent of these
people until after the middle of August 1942. They were under the
supervision of the Army in assembly centers.
Mr. CosTELLO. That was the W. C. C. A.
Mr. Myer. Colonel Bendetzen was in charge of that program.
Most of those people went out in assembly centers, because we didn't
have many people in relocation centers.
Now, during the same fall the biggest pressure we had in W. R. A.
was the pressure from Congressmen and Senators from the West to
get labor in sugar-beet fields, in spite of the fact that on April 7. 1942,
the western Governors, with one exception, said that they could not
come into the' States without military guard. We had this pressure
about the middle of August, which was terrific.
The whole sentiment changed because of the need for wartime
production and because of the need for help. And, as I say, by the
time the harvest season reached its peak, we had nearly 50,000 people
relocated outside of the assembly centers, relocation centers, doing
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9623
•work in the agricultural areas of the mid-Mountain States and of
the West. That was the first big step in the relocation program.
Mr. MuNDT. When did the influx of these evacuees into these camps
stop?
Mr. Mter. November 2.
Mr. MuNDT. November 2?
Mr. Myer. As far as the west-coast group was concerned.
Mr. MuNDT. You secured all the evacuees you could get by that
time?
Mr. Mter. We received a few from Hawaii following that, but the
west coast stopped November 2; and, Jerome, Ark.
Mr. INIuxnT. What was the date of starting the relocation program
out of the centers into private life?
Mr. Myer. Well, I think about the last 10 days of May the first
people went out on seasonal leave from the Army centers, and about
1 .700 went out during the latter part of May and June.
Mr. MuNDT. Then for 6 months you operated without releasing
any evacuees from the camps at all?
Mr. INIter. Then on July 20 we set up our first administrative
instruction that provided for release on indefinite leave. That was
prett}^ limited. We have been very conservative on that.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. Did you have the facilities then, after you had really
crystallized your policy, before you started the program of indefinite
leave ?
Mr. Myer. Yes. This was July 20, 1942, a year ago this month,
that we started our leave program.
Mr, MuNDT. You started that when ?
Mr. Myer. July 20, 1942. Then our revised leave regulations —
when we really started to push this program — went into effect
■October 1. I believe in the Federal Register of October 1 a complete
and detailed set of leave regulations was announced, which estab-
lished the policy on a widespread basis, and we did not get our field
offices established, because we did not see the need for them at that
time. We found later we were going to have to have them, and
about the first week of January they began to be established. Our
largest number of evacuees who have left on indefinite leave have
gone out since about April 1 of this year. Some have gone before,
"but not a large number.
Now, I would like to go back. I think there is something that is
misunderstood by the public generally, and I will tell you why we
have been conservative, awfully conservative. The first evacuation
from the west coast was ordered on March 2, 1942. TKere were no
provisions for relocation centers at that time. The W. R. A. was
not even in existence. People were asked to move out from the
coastal areas and find homes wherever they cared to. About 8.000
people moved during the month of March 1942. Some of them
moved just across the line in California and settled down again, but
about 5,000 moved clear out of California and out of the west coast
and found homes of their own.
In addition to that, there were about fifteen, sixteen, or seventeen
thousand people that did not live on the west coast, so that there have
been some 20.000 evacuees that have never been under the War Relo-
cation Authority at any time. We have never been responsible for
9624 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
that group of people. They have gone about their business as other
people have,
Mr. MuNDT. What are the boundaries of the restricted territory?
Mr. Mter, I can show you on the map, if you wish to see it. The
boundaries of the first restricted area ran right down through here
[indicating], including a portion of southern Arizona. There was
a second line drawn later that came right down about through the
middle of California, a little to the west of the middle of Washington
and Oregon, including southern Arizona. Later on, and I do not
remember the exact date, all of California was evacuated.
Mr. CcSTEULo. Originall}^ it was just a coastal strip.
Mr. Myer. It was just a coastal strip, to begin with. The point
I want to make clear, however, is that there was no insistence on the-
part of the War Department to put these people in anything re-
sembling relocation centers if they could find homes otherwise, tO'
begin with. All they asked them to do was to move back from the
coast, so that many of the people are surprised that we are not run-
ning internment camps.
Internment camps were never intended in relation to this program.
The onlv reason for the relocation centers at all — well, there are two
reasons. One is that those people, as they began to move out, during
those first months, began to get into trouble, and as any 100,000
people would if they moved out en masse, in new communities, and!
where they contacted, so to speak, enemies in the new (?ommunities..
And, it soon became evident that you could not move that many
people by voluntary action, so the freeze order was put into effect
on the 2d of March, and the relocation centers were started as tem-
porary homes until we could find time to develop a relocation pro-
gram or until we could get them established in other parts of the
country. Now that is background of the program that is very often,
misunderstood.
Mr. MuNDT. Out of the 8,000 that were moved out, have you had
any cases where they came to the relocation centers voluntarily, after
these relocation centers were established?
Mr. Myer. There were a few. We adopted the policy that anyone
who might be evacuated could live in relocation centers if they could
not establish themselves otherwise. We had a few cases that moved
out in the spring and fall of last year who did come into the center
and joined their families or friends at relocation centers; not a large
number, however. Most of them continued to live on the outside.
Mr. MuNDT. Unless they previously had their homes in the re-
stricted areas, they would not be permitted to come into the center ;
would they ?
Mr. Myer. That is right. We have had cases come up recently
where they wanted to leave the center and join their friends. If
they have not been there, we said "No." We do not want to become
specialists in that sense.
Now, if I might go back to the leave program, because it is im-
portant. October 1, then, was the date when we published in the
Federal Register our leave regulations. That information became
available to anyone that was interested in it. We started pushing
the program.
Shortly after those went into effect I took a trip. I met with the
eight western centers at Salt Lake City in November. I announced
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9625
at that time that we were really going to make relocation a major
pai:t of our program. We were getting centers established ; person-
nel trained; we were getting over the hump as far as getting the
establishment set up, and we began to realine our industrial policy
referred to a moment ago, which we thought might be necessary at
the centers in order to help facilitate the relocation program.
We realined our field organization in the latter part of November
and early December to discuss our new program, because that was
set up in order to get our centers established and to get the program
started off.
Beginning then in January we started the establishment of these
50 field offices, and right now we are in the midst of an intensive
program of resettlement, or what we call relocation.
Mr. MuNDT. What has been the. average weekly release since April ?
Mr. Myer. I don't know. I do remember i.t was running about 500
a week on seasonal leave — most of whom were going: out to certain
counties to do agricultural work — and about 500 on indefinite leave.
That figure was running pretty consistently during April and May.
It is tapering off a little bit at the moment.
I think last week there were 356 went out on indefinite leave. I am
not sure whether that has been the result of some of the publicity
that came out from this committee or whether it is just simply taper-
ing off.
Mr. CosTELLO. There has not been any increase in the last couple
of weeks of those who have been put out on indefinite leave ?
Mr. Myer. No ; there has been a decrease, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Eberharter. Which you regret.
Mr. Myer. \^^iich I regret very strongly.
Mr. Stripling. What was the figure set by the W. R. A. on the
release of evacuees for resettlement?
Mr. ]\Iyer. Well, there have been several figures set. You mean
the total figure?
Mr. Stripling. Per week. What rate pe^ week did the W. R. A.
establish in its new program ?
Mr. Myer. Oh, we never established any goal ; I mean, weekly goal.
We just simph^ tried to get geared up so that we could get every-
body out we could in the spring season down at the different relocation
centers. About 45 percent of the people in the relocation centers were
in agricultural work previous to the time they were evacuated. The
big demand in agricultural work comes during, the spring and fall,
in the harvest season; so that many of these who were at hand in
April and May went out as they did a year ago, to work in extensive
crop areas, such as the irrigated areas.
Now, most of those were on seasonal leave, though some were on
indefinite leave. So we did try to get geared up on that work, and
we hope to have another push in the fall season to get people re-
located in agricultural work. The other work has developed through-
out that period.
Mr. MuNDT. I think "indefinite leave" is pretty clear. It means out ,
for good.
Mr. ]\Iyer. That is right.
Mr. MuxDT. What is the situation in regard to seasonal leave?
Mr. Myer. Seasonal? We called it "group leave" last year, because
they went out in groups and were recruited, in most part, by the
9626 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
sugar beet companies, who sent in their field agents to help in the
recruitment, for beet thinning, beet topping, beet harvesting, and
that type of intensive work. However, they did work with other
crops, such as tomatoes, celery, and potatoes.
We changed it to seasonal leave this year, because we find that the
people who go out in agricultural work very often can't find housing
to establish themselves throughout the whole year. They go out in
April or May and probably come back about the middle of December
to the center.
Mr. MuNDT. Do some of the evacuees going out on seasonal leave
make any arrangements with the employers that they stay out in-
definitely then ?
Mr. Myer. That is right. Seasonal leave is a good feeder for in-
definite leave, and that is one of the reasons we maintain the seasonal
leave program. I tried to differentiate it a while back, because I did
not want to complicate the terminology, but we found that seasonal
leave was helpful in our program; and, furthermore, the employers
like it very much, for the most part, to have people come ovit and try
out. Many of those people who have gone out on seasonal leave later
on have requested indefinite leave and, if eligible, their application
was granted.
Ml'. MuNDT. What differences are there in the eligibility of a man
that goes out on indefinite leave as against one going out on seasonal
leave?
Mr. Myer. There are no differences at the present time. During the
period of a year ago and all through 1942, there were no provisions for
checking those who went out on seasonal leave. The only requirement
was that they went to a certain, designated area. Thev could not
move from that area without permission, and it was a limited area.
Restrictions in the Western Defense Command were established by a
proclamation of the War Department.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean, they went to a sugar-beet operator?
Mr. Myer. Yes ; in a certain county in Montana, for instance. And,
they would have to maintain themselves in that county and not move
out of the county, unless they came back to the center.
Mr. MuNDT. They could not go across the county line?
Mr. Myer. That is right ; so that there was no investigation of any
of those people that left the assembly centers who were under the War
Department for seasonal or group leave last year ; neither was any other
on group leave investigated from the relocation centers.'
T might add that up to date, with our 10,000 on seasonal leave last
fall, with more than 15,000 on leave today, we haven't had one in-
cident so far reported of any disloyal activity of any type. I am not
indicating that it could not happen, but it has not happened yet.
Mr. MuNDT. But you have had quite a few cases where they
wandered beyond the county lines?
Mr. Myer. Yes ; we have had cases of that kind, just like you would
have with any 10,000 people breaking over, and we have to guard
. agninst that fact.
Mr. MuNDT. In Denver they had some men in iail, I remember.
Mr. Myer. Yes. They went back to Poston. We occasionally have
to gather some boys up who get the wanderlust.
Mr. Costello. Apparently some wandered into Seattle, according
to yesterday's paper.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9627
Mr. jMter. Occasionally that has happened. There were two young-
sters that wandered into San Francisco a while back, that came from
the center, I might say.
Mr. CosTELLO. The three at Seattle had been sworn into the Army
and were directed to appear at Camp Shelby, and they wound up in *
Seattle' hunting for their cameras, which they had buried up there.
They were sworn in and given 15 days leave to report to Camp
Shelby. They went back to Seattle, to the old homestead, to the
garage, and dug up an old camera and were then apprehended and
turned over to the military authorities, according to the news story
in yesterday morning's paper. .
Mr. Myer. If tliey had a proper furlough, they were, of course,
privileged to travel within the area.
]Mr. CosTELLO, Having been in the area, I guess they were entitled
to go into that area, according to General DeWitt's order.
Mr. Myer. That is right.
]Mr, CosTELLo. But they were not entitled to have cameras unless
the soldiers were allowed cameras.
Mr. Myer. I think you will find soldiers are allowed cameras any
place they go.
Mr. CoSTELLO. At any rate, they did not surrender the cameras a
year or so ago, prior to evacuation.
Mr. MuNDT. Are there any restrictions on the movements of men
or women releasee.! on indefinite leave ?
Mr. INIyer. No; excepting they cannot go back into the evacuated
area. There are certain military areas that they can't go into, as
there are military areas that I can't go into without a special pass.
Those on indefinite leave are free to go as they wish, as long as
they obey the laws.
Mr. MuNDT. If they just obey the laws?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
ISIr. MuNDT. And they work until they decide that they want to
quit, but they are still free.
Mr. Myer. They are still free. When they change jobs, however,
they are required to notify us as to their change of jobs and ad-
dresses, so that we can keep track of them. That is essential, in view
of the practical problems, in following with mail and property
problems, and so on.
Mr. MuxDT. What is the penalty for forgetfulness on the part of
the Japanese if they do not do that?
Mr. Myer. Being reported to the F. B. I., of which I don't think
there is anything worse for a Japanese.
INtr. MuxDT. Or anybody else.
Mr. Myer. Or anyone else.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say on July 27 this resettlement program was
adopted. Was it determined upon by W. R. A. itself, or was it
determined by W. R. A. in consultation with other agencies?
Mr. Myer. That was determined in consultation with other agen-
cies. That was a very limited program at that time. We did not
allow anyone to go within the Western Defense Command. It was
limited to citizens for the period from July to October, and I believe
there were one or two other exceptions, or limitations. I don't re-
member the details. I can supply them for the record.
9628 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Was it to be a permanent resettlement profjram ? .
Mr. Myer. Yes ; indefinitely. Now, the October issue, which went
into the Federal Register, administrative instruction, was cleared with
the Attorney General and with the Director of the F. B. I. before we
put it into effect. I have a letter to that effect dated September 25.
The whole matter was discussed completely and thoroughly with the
War Department before we proceeded with the program, and it was
discussed with a number of other people in Government, including
the Director of the Bureau of the Budget, that I was consulting at that
time on policy, and a number of other people.
Mr. CosTELLo. I assume it was not taken up with the Indian Bureau.
Mr. Myer. No ; excepting the Indian Bureau was urging the policy
before we put it into effect.
Mr. CosTELLO.' This policy, then, was announced in November?
Mr. Myer. October 1.
Mr. CosTELLo. October 1?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. Then you had the meeting in November of the
regional directors?
Mr. Myer. No. This policy had been in effect for some time at that
time. The only thing that was announced in November that I heard
referred to a number of times was that this was going to become a
major effort and, because of that, that we were not going to go ahead
with some plans that had been in the air to have industry in relocation
centers, with prevailing wages paid, which was under consideration
for a good many months. There were several reasons why that policy
was not carried forward.
One of them was, we found, or the administrator found it was impos-
sible to work out a program with people working 2 or 3 days and then
off. But our major reason for that was, it was inconsistent with the
relocation policy that was announced at that time.
Mr. CosTELLO. It was indicated to the committee in California that
approximately the night of November 9 a Mr. Collier visited the
center at Boston, near Parker, and indicated to the evacuees there, in
addressing them, that that was their home, and that the Indian Bureau
was happy to have them on the reservation and appreciated the work
they were going to do in the way of development and cultivation of
the land, an dthat subsequently, on or about the 17th of November,
you appeared and addressed the evacuees likewise at a meeting or, at
least, the announcement was made to them that the program was one of
resettlement outside of the relocation centers and the evacuees were
to be scattered throughout the country, and the result of these two
conflicting statements created a great deal of confusion in the minds
of the evacuees in that particular center.
Mr, Myer. I would see no reason why Mr, Collier would indicate
that kind of a policy on the 9th of November when the regulation had
been published in the Federal Register at least 5 weeks by that time,
and it had been discussed with him in detail.
Mr. Costello, Maybe, like some of the members of Congress, he
might not read the Register.
Mr. Myer. Perhaps so. He did know about it, though, because, I
might say, Mr, Collier and his staff receive copies of every administra-
tive instruction put out by W. R. A., as do other of our staff members,
and I am real sure about that.
rX-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9629
Mr. CosTELLo. Do the administrators in each of the centers re-
ceive copies of your instructions?
Mr. Myer. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLo, Aitd tliey did subsequent to October 1st?
Mr. Myer. That is rifrht.
^Ir. jNIati'hews. Mr. Chairman, in order to develop this resettle-
ment policy as accurately as possible, I would like to ask the witness
if he refers to Administrative Instruction No. 22?
Mr. Myer. That is right.
Mr. IMatthews. Issued July 20, 1942.
Mr. Myer. That was when it was first iSsued. Aren't these all
October 1st ?
]Mr. Matthews. Was this not dated or published in the Federal
Register September 29?
Mr. Myer. I thought it was actually dated October 1. You say
it was September 29?
]\Ir. ]\1atthews. September 29, title 22, chapter 1, part 5.
Mr. Myer. Perhaps so. I was thinking it was October 1st.
]Mr. Matthews. On October 6 the War Relocation Authority pub-
lished a revised version of Administrative Instruction No. 22 which,
I understand, from the text did not alter the terms, but simply elab-
orated, for administrative purposes, the original text; is that correct?
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. Mattheavs. We have a copy of the revised November 6 Ad-
ministrative Instruction No. 22, if you would like to have that at the
present time.
Now, I would like to ask Mr. Myer if the present resettlement
policy of W. R. A. is fully embodied in the regulations of April 7,
1943^ I show you a copy of the document.
]\Ir. ]\Iyer. If you show me a copy of the document, I think maybe
I can tell you.
Mr. ]Matthews. Does this document fully embody the present pol-
icies, so far as regulations have been issued.
Mr. Myer. You don't have the first page of this, do you?
Mr. ^Matthews. It is on the other side.
Mr. Myer. I see. This is a good summary of our policy. This
statement was prepared not as an administrative instruction, but as
a statement of general policy that could be utilized by people who
are interested in the general statement, and I would saj^ it was a
good statement of the policy.
Mr. ]\Iatthew^s. This was published by the War Relocation Au-
thoi-ity. was it not?
Mi-.MvER. Yes; by the War Relocation Authority, but our admin-
istrative instructions are either numbered, as 22 is, or numbered as
a sup]>loment to that. This is simply an interpretation put out.
Mr. Matthews. Has xVdministrative Instruction No. 22, as revised
October 6, 1942. been further revised?
]Mr. Myer. Yes; there have been revisions from time to time, in-
cludini:- one supplement of April 2 of this year, which I happened
to look up recently. I am not positive there were others, but I am
sure there were.
Mr. ^Matthews. But the provisions as summarized in the regula-
tion of April 7 have not been superseded since April 7, have they ?
62620—43— vol. 15 51
9630 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myer. I would have to check that. Without a check I would
hate to be definite about it, but I don't think that they have been.
Mr. Matthews. Going back to the subject that was discussed some-
time ago, the matter of wages of those who are Resettled, one para-
graph on the second page of this document deals with that. I believe
3'ou stated in your testimony that you made no attempt whatever to
police the wages of those who have been resettled.
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. Matthews. The sentence which refers to that is as follows:
It is expected that evacuees will be employed at prevailing wages.
I take it, from your testimony, that that is in the nature of a
homologv.
Mr. Myer. That simply is a statement of our general policy, rather
than saying what I said here in a longer statement : We don't think
you should ask for more or for less. We simply say that prevailing
wages is what we think should be the accepted figure for any evacuee.
But, we do not attempt to police the wages of any evacuees who have
left the center and who are on indefinite leave,
Mr. Mattheavs. "Expected" does not quite come under the category
of "regulation," then.
Mr. Myer. No, no. That is not an administrative regulation. That
is simply a statement of the general policy.
Mr. Matthews. You do not know whethe)* this language appears
in the administrative regulation or not?
Mr. Myer. I am sure it does not,
Mr. CosTELLO. I notice in this regulation, the copy of which we
have been referring to, this language [reading] :
Officials of the W. R. A. in Washington review the application, the project
director's findings, letters from persons given as references, and check the
applicant's name against the records of F. B. I. and other Federal intelligence
agencies.
Is that the process through which each person who is evacuated is
allowed to leave the evacuation center?
Mr. Myer. Up until April 2 all cases were checked here. As of
April 2 we issued Supplement 22 allowing the project directors to
make their own determination, with certain limitations on leave,
Mr. MuNDT. Will you read the copy of that supplement ?
Mr. Myer. I think 1 have a co]:)y of the supplement right here.
Here is a cop}^ of the supplement of April 2, which reads as follows:
Supplement 9
Subject : Issuance of leave for departure from a relocation area.
Section 3 of Administrative Instruction No. 22 (revised) is hereby amended by
inserting the following new paragraph after paragraph C-1 :
C-2. Issuance of indefinite leave under sijecitied circumstances where leave
clearance has not been granted. In cases where the applicant has not received
leave clearance, but —
1. He registered for leave clearance either on DSS form 804-a and Form
WRA-126-a, or on Form WRA-126-rev., during the special military registration
in February and March —
I will say that those were the registered forms used in connection
with the registration we had in February and March in all centers
when we asked everyone of 17 years of age or over to fill out complete
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES ' 9631
forms that were made up in cooperation with the intelligence agencies
and with the Army, and that provided us the first real basic records
that we had. and included the questions on allegiance. [Continues
reading:]
2. His answer to question 28 (with respect to allegiance) on DSS Form 304-A
or Form WRA:-126 (rev.) was unqualified affirmative; —
In Other words, that was necessary before they were allowed to go.
3. He has not applied for repatriation or expatriation ;
4. He is not a paroled alien ;
5. He is not a Shinto priest ;
6. His application for leave clearance has neither been denied nor suspended
bv the director ;
'7. The project director believes, upon the basis of his investigation at the
project, the application for leave clearance and all other pertinent information
that theiv is no reasonable ground to believe the issuance of indefinite leave
would interfere with the war program or otherwise endanger the public peace
and security ; and
8. His proposed place of employment or residence is not within the Eastern
Defense Command.
Mr. CosTELLO. Prior to the adoption of this regulation, all of the
applications were chec"ked here in Washington?
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLo. Now, what did that check consist of here in Wash-
ington ?
Mr. Myek. Up until that time we had a complete — or, we had a
check against the records of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
We wrote normally to five or six people back on the coast wdio knew
these people previously to evacuation to get their recommendation.
Mr. CosTELLO. There were people who knew the individuals
Mr. Myer. "Who knew the individuals involved and knew their
background or history.
Mr. CosTELLO. "\^Tiere were the names of those persons obtained
from : from the application itself ?
Mr. Myer. From the application, generally speaking; people living
in the neighborhood that ^ye had a chance to talk with.
Ml-. CosTEixo. "Where they were employed?
Ml. Myer. If they were employed, we requested the name of the
employer, and we referred to the employer. Of course, many of them
were not employed.
Mr. Costello. Indications were made to us that in most instances
the employers were not c<mtacted, but other people who might have
known the evacuee were contacted.
Mr. Mver. Mr. Chairman, in the one case I know of where that was
stated in the press. I would like to make a statement. Mayor Bowron
of Los Angeles indicated that a chap by the name of Okuro, who was
an employee of the civil service of the city of Los Angeles, was
released by the War Rekx'ation Authority without checking with him.
That statement is untrue. Okuro was never under the jurisdiction of
the War Relocation xVuthority at any time. He was released by the
War Department from the Santa Anita assembly center to go to Boys
Town in Nebraska before he was ever located in a relocation center.
Mr. CosTEiJ^). Your information was commented upon the next day
by Mayor Bowron.
Mr. Mver. Well. I want to be sure that was corrected in the papers.
9832 ' UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. However, Mayor Bowron also said this, and this is
true of all the Japanese that they had employed in the city, that they
never received a letter from anybody checking back on them before
they were released; not only Okuro, but that was the general situa-
tion.
Mr. Myer. I am sorry I don't have the figures before me. I think
most of them are still in relocation centers. I think there are proba-
bly four that have relocated. I am not sure about the record, but I
can check the facts in regard to that and state it for the record.
Mr. MuNDT. He made that very positive statement the first time,
and we questioned it, and he came back the second time and he
alleged he checked it with the departmental heads and it was the
truth.
Mr. Myer. Well, I will be glad to check the record on that. I do
have those names. I will have it checked and I will supply the
information to you as to how those records were kept.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you have the names of all those employed by
the city of Los Angeles ?
Mr. Myer. The only names I have are those listed in the report put
out by the Dies committee, a printed report, giving the names of so-
called very dangerous ]3eople, which I doubt, that w'ere members of
the staff of the water department of Los Angeles. I doubt that all
were dangerous, because we have checked the records of some here,
and that is the list I have. Now, if there are additional ones to be
added, we would be glad to have the names for the record.
Mr. Costello. The actual process then was merely to submit the
names to the F. B. I. so that they might check it against their records.
Mr. Myer. That is right. The F. B. I. have never, at any time,
made recommendations regarding the loyalty of any person. They
adopt the policy of not doing it, but they have made, at all times,
available to us, the records that they may have regarding individuals
as the basis for our checking the records "and as to whether or not
they should be released.
Mr. Costello. Actually, the F. B. I. did not make a full investiga-
tion.
Mr. Myer. That is right ; they never have. The W. R. A. has never
claimed they have, except in one case, which was a mistake, and I
would like to make a statement for the record here regarding that
case.
Unfortunately, through pure inadvertence, in a letter of October 27
last year, one of our staff members wrote to Mr. Homer Chaillaux
of Indianapolis, director of the Americanization committee of the
American Legion, in relation to those who were going out to col-
lege, and did make the statement that they were investigated by the
F. B. L
That was called to our attention on the 19th of December by Mr.
Hoover. I checked it. We notified all of our staff at the time about
the mistake by a staff notice that was sent out. I have sent out
other notices in the meantime, and on four different occasions we
have written Mr. Chaillaux to correct the record on that, so that I
think the record is clear.
There have been statements made, unfortunately, from time to
time, by inadvertence on the part of people, that they were cleared
by the F. B. I. or investigated by the F. B. I. That never has been
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9633
true. They have supplied the records to us for our information.
They do not, at any time guarantee loyalty ; neither would I, although
we think we are doing a pretty sound job. I would not guarantee
anybody's loj^alty forever; anybody might go berserk; neither have
they made special investigations regarding those on leave.
l^ow, the F. B. I. has made investigations at our request time after
time, within relocation centers. They have been in every center;
sometimes on their own and sometimes on our request, and they have
collaborated with us in many, many ways. But, as regarding the
leave program, thej'^ have not made a special investigation for us. I
want to make that perfectly clear so that there will be no misunder-
standing about it.
Mr. CosTELLO. That impression was very general, because we had
one or two ministers appear before our committee in Los Angeles,
and even though we tried to point out the diiference of checking the
individual against the records and the individual being checked by
the F. B. I., there was still confusion.
Mr. Myer. That has been very unfortunate. I assure you it has
not been a part of any advertising of W. R. A. to that effect, as long
as we could help it.
Mr. CosTEL^o. The ministers insisted that they understood it was a
thorough investigation of each individual which, it was our under-
standing, was not actually made.
Mr. Myer. We asked the F. B. I. if they would not do that for us
early in the game. They told us because of the pressure of war work
generalh\ thej^ w^ere just not in a position to do it.
However, I want to repeat, that the F. B. I. did approve the policy
in rehition to our leave jDrogram. I discussed it for an hour with
the Director before we put it in the Federal Register in October, in
detail, when we finally moved over to the more general leave pro-
visions. It was approved by letter l>y the Attorney General, so if
there is any question about our not discussing it with other people,
I would be glad to supply for the record the correspondence regarding
that.
Mr. MuNDT. Did the F, B. I. also approve your program of sea-
sonal leave, where you simply left them out without any check
whatsoever ?
]Mr. Myer. I am not so sure about that, because that was estab-
lished before I came into the Authority. I don't know whether it
was checked with them. I might say, however, that the military did
approve and were a party to it. It was a part of the agreement with
the War Department in the Western Defense Command.
Mr. MuNDT. In the militarv zone?
Mr. Myer. As I say, at the present time, those who go out on
seasonal leave have the same kind of check now that the indefinite
leave have. We have only put that in opei-ation recently.
Mr. MuNDT. Wlien was that i^olic}' put into effect?
Mr. Myer. Within the last 30. 60 clays. I can check that for you.
Mr. ]MuNDT. Will you supply the record with that date ?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. ^luNDT. Now, if I interpret the purport of this supplement 9
correctly, about the only change that it involves over your earlier
instruction is that it eliminates the home check of the Japanese and
the F. B. I.
9634 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myer. Tliat is right. That is about the only change. How-
ever, I would like to say that it does not eliminate the F. B. I. check
ultimately.
What is happening there is that following this registratipn in Feb-
ruary and March, that we supplied all the records, I mean, all the
names, and all this means is for everyone of 17 years and over, to
F. B. I., and they are checking the records on everyone for us. And,
up to the present time, we have a case check on 63,500 individuals.
There are still about 10,000 to be checked. But, the minute that we
get those records, we make the check against the individuals who
had leave clearance, and if there is any record we get in touch with
them right off the bat ; I mean, if it is a bad record.
We haven't had any cases yet, excepting two. There was one case
where they had never been in a relocation center, where they did
not swear allegiance to the United States, that we took them back
to the relocation center, although that had not been done heretofore.
There is another case, I understand, within the la,st week, where
a person had gone out on leave and has been recalled — after we
checked the records of the F. B. I., and found a case that we thought
was adequate, that he should be taken back to the center.
Now, all of those cases are being checked and rechecked, with not
only the F. B. L, but with the naval machinery resources and the
other military agencies.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say those are being checked against the mili-
tary record?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. What were the 63,000 checked against?
Mr. Myer. They were checked against all intelligence agencies. I
might say there was not a very large number of names in the Mili-
tary Intelligence record until this evacuation came on. Most of the
records were either in the F. B. I. or Naval Intelligence, because they
were the ones keeping contact with them, with the Japanese com-
munities generally, and are specialists in it.
Mr. CosTELLO. This program of having these 63,000 Ja])anese
checked bv the various intelligence services has only been adopted
since April?
Mr. Myer. No ; that started about January. But, what we did was
to use these forms as they came in from the various sections, that we
continued during February and March.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was that joint board that you referred to out there?
Mr. Myer. That is right, the joint board, but the forms were made
up before the joint board was organized, as a basis of induction into
the military, of the male citizens, and the other forms were used
which had the same information on it, for Japanese citizens as well
as for aliens.
Mr. CoSTELLO. Who are the members of this joint board?
Mr. Myer. A representative of the Office of Naval Intelligence, a
representative of Military Intelligence; a representative of the Pro-
vost Marshal's office, and a representative from the War Relocation
Authority. I think there is a representative from the F. B. I. sitting
in, but not officially, as a member of the board. They sit with the
board.
Mr. CosTELLo. They have an auditor and not an actual member of
the board ?
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTI\ ITIES 9635
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cc STELLO. Does this board then officially pass upon the requests
for resettlement?
Ml". Mter. No. Well, I would say no. They do in certain cases.
The joint board was set up at the time that the combat team was
announced, with the idea of checking and clearing cases of people
tlial were interested in w^orking in defense plants; American citizens
of Japanese ancestry.
In the meantime we had a gentlemen's agreement with the War
Dei)artment that we would not relocate people within the Eastern
Defou'sc Connnand without checking with the War Department.
AVell, that function was turned over to the joint board, so that they
are passing on indefinite, leave cases in rather large numbers, which
gives us a category of people that can move into the Eastern Defense
Command at the present time, so that the joint board has somewhat
moved over from the other function. They have checked several
thousand cases, but they are just beginning to get well under way
with the indefinite leave checks.
In case they find cases that they can not recommend to us for leave
they snnply pass tliem back to us with the suggestion that they not
be relocated for the present util further investigations are made or
until further investigations develop
However, there is an understanding between the joint board and
ourselves that we are the responsible agency on leave as far as in-
definite leave is concerned.
They are the responsible agency in collaboration with the Provost
Marshal's office, in defense plant work, in asking them to check on
the Eastern Defense Command cases.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you suppose that under this new Supplement 9
the War Department has asked that those evacuees do not come into
the Eastern Defense Command?
Mr. Myer. Because General Drum decided he would not like to
have too many in the Eastern Defense Command until they were
checked.
Mr. MuNDT. You have kept them out of the Western Defense Com-
mand and out of the Eastern Defense Command which means you
concentrate them in the Middle West.
Mr. My'er. There are a lot of them in the Eastern Defense Com-
mand. I don't know how many cases there are. but there are six or
seven thousand cases already cleared by the joint board, eligible for
the Eastern Defense Command. And, of course, these people work-
ing for us in that category have been cleared and checked, so that
there are a large number of cases that are eligible for the Eastern
Defense Command.
Mr. CosTELLO. And based on an application of that sort, the mem-
bers of the board mei'elv check the name against the existing; record
in the Department to see if they have a record against the individual.
Mr. Myer. It is checked against all three of the intelligence records.
Tliev have established certain criteria that have been set up by the
board regarding the past history of individuals. They will not be
cleared without further investigation, at least, back in the Western
Defense Command, by the Provost office out there, so that it is only in
very clean, clear cases where they have no intelligence records, and
where they have had no serious records of contacts with the Japanese
9636 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Government, or back to Japan, that they will clear without a special
investioation. The investirjations, if they are conducted before the
joint board, are conducted by the Provost Marshal's office and back to
the Western Defense Command, who know these people, and checking
their records that they have out there.
Mr. CosTELLO. The provost marshal in these cases then is, in fact,
acting as a representative of the Western Defense Command?
Mr. Myer. Well, the Provost Marshal's office, of course, as I think
everyone knows, is responsible for the proper surveillance of war
plant activities. That is the way they came into the picture, but
they are using the Provost Marshal's segment of the Western Defense
Conmiand for their investigative agency on the coast, as I under-
stand it.
Mr. MuNDT. Let me see if we can get this down to cases. Take the
case of John Smithoko.
Mr. Myer. Tonoko is easier.
Mr. MuNDT. Let us assume he is released from the center under
regulation supplement 9. He can locate any place in the United
States where he has a job except the Eastern and Western Defense
Commands.
Mr. INIyer. Yes ; and if he is cleared by the joint board, he can locate
in the Eastern Defense Command.
Mr. MuNDT. Now, w^e start him off at Omaha. He <rets a job at
Omaha and he finds out he can get a better job in Baltimore, so he
applies for clearance; is that the procedure?
Mr. Myer. Yes; he usually does. Some of them do not wait to
apply, but — ■ —
Mr. MuNDT. Well, it is assumed that he will apply.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Assume his application is rejected; then what hap-
pens to him?
Mr. Myer. Well, he is supposed to stay where he is, because if he
does come into the Eastern Defense Command without clearance, he
would be classified a suspect.
Mr. MuNDT. And if he were rejected for clearance, he would not
automatically reconvert to the Poston center?
Mr. Myer. No ; if his record is otherwise good.
Mr. MuNDT. He would be too bad for Baltimore, but good enough
for Omaha; is that it?
Mr. Myer. I think that is due to the numerous defense jobs and
the contacts.
Now, let me repeat, there is no regulation on that. It is simply a
gentlemen's agreement with the War Department, at the insistence
of General Drum, and we have lived up to it. We have worked with
him since away last summer and it has been worked out in that
manner, and it makes him feel happier. He feels responsible for the
Eastern Defense area, so we have gone along with that.
Mr. MuNDT. It would seem to me if there was reason to believe
that a Japanese, or citizen of Japanese ancestry, is going to disrupt
national defense if he moved into the Eastern Defense center, or
Eastern Defense Command, that that would be reason enough to put
him back into a camp some place rather than have him stay at
Omaha, for example, where they make almost as many bombers as
they do in Baltimore.
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9637
Mr. Myer. Well, in view of the fact that there have been no cases of
sab<)tao;e, mavbe the record will continue on that basis.
Mr. MuNDT. AMiat is that?
Mr. ]\Iyer. I say, in view of the fact that there have been no cases
of sabota«^e by people of Japanese ancestry, maj^be the record will
continue on that basis. I think he has been pretty well checked and
that YOU need not have much concern about him in Omaha.
INIr. MuNDT. I am worried about the fellow trying to get into the
Eastern Defense Command when they say he is not good enough to
remain in Baltimore.
]Slr. ]Myers. As far as I know
Mr. MuNDT (interposing). That is the fellow I am worried about.
Mr. Myer. Well, ultimately, as these cases move through the
board, we hope they will all be checked by the board; by the joint
board.
Mr. INIuNDT. If there is an adverse finding by the board, it means
that they can stick along tlie Mississippi River. That will not make
my folks much happier up there, I am sure. There must be some
reason, in other words, why they pick out Joe Smithoko and say
he cannot remain in Baltimore. It is not prejudice. It is not the
situation that you have in the Western States, where there are many
other interests, we all agree, besides just the national defense to con-
sider.
But, here is a case of a citizen of Japanese ancestry who has been
released fi'om camp. He has moved into Omaha. He wants to take
a better job in the Eastern Defense Command and he applies for
clearance, and the War Department and the board steps in and says :
"There is something in your record which makes you a hazard. I
believe you should stay in Omaha."
I believe they should go further than that. If there is something
dangerous about him or something subversive about him, he should
not get out. If there is something against him, he ought to be sent
back to Boston or back to Leupp which, I believe, you call the isola-
tion camp.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. INIttndt. It seems to me there are two things that do not look
too good in the ])rogram.
]\ir. Myer. He would have to be pretty bad if we sent him back to
Leupp. Well, he is just among 20,000 other people that have not
been in relocation centers and have never been checked.
Mr. Mt-ndt. The eastern coast is more heavily populated than out
West, and he would be a small proportion here than out there.
Mr. Myer. I agree, but he would be easier to see out there, though.
Mr. MuNDT. But it does not look to me to be a very satisfactory
program to have this segment of American democracy set up and
say, ''Here is a fellow good enough to live in one section but too bad
to live somewhere else," because if he is dangerous, he is dangerous
in Omaha or Minneapolis or Chicago just as he would be dangerous
in Baltimore. If he is not dangerous, I cannot conceive that this
board would reject his application.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Congressman, I might give you another little bit
of information that I suppose you all have. There is a program for
individual exclusion of other people besides Japanese people, who are
9638 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
being moved back from both coasts of the United States. They are
not being put in relocation centers or internment camps; they are
simply asked to move out of the coastal areas. Many of them are
people who are recently naturalized Germans and Italians. I don't
know whether any of them went to Omaha or not. Some of them have
gone to other places in the Midwest. And, that is the general policy
followed by the War Department, and I have no criticism of it.
They feel that it is unsound to have them on the coast, but not unsound
to have them in the Midwest country.
Mr. MuNDT. The number involved is very small, is it not?
Mr. Myer. Well, it is comparatively small in this group, but
Mr. Mundt. But if you are asked to resettle the country now by
Japanese, you will rapidly change God's country into something
satanical, and we simply can't grant that privilege to people con-
sidered subversive in other sections of America.
Mr. Myer. We find, as time goes on and the people have forgotten,
the number of peo]jle that can, go gradually becomes less and less.
And, if you insist long and loud enough, we will probably have in-
ternment camps for about 70,000 American citizens, about 72 percent
of whom have never seen Japan in their lives. A lot of them, kids,
yes; a lot of them are not kids, however. But, it just depends on
whose ox is gored.
Mr. Mundt. This is something different than the relocation pro-
gram. We have been picking out fellows who have been investigated
and found deficient or found lacking in patriotism or found some
subversive background, which the board pronounced dangerous.
Mr. Myer. No ; he can't have a subversive background, but he may
have something in his history or relationship, family history or
relationship, that they feel might be against him. In many cases,
or most of these cases, there is nothing subversive, particularly. If
they were, they would be in internment camps.
Another fact that I would like to bring out here, which I am not
sure that the public understands or knows. There are in internment
camps something over 2,000 aliens of Japanese ancestry who have
never been in relocation centers. These people were picked up either
before or after Pearl Harbor. Under Presidential warrant they are
supposed to be the leaders of organizations and other groups. I
might say there were between four and five thousand of them picked
up.
After going through the hearing board process, something more
than 2,000 were finally incarcerated in internment cam])s for the
duration. Those camps were under the jurisdiction of the Army
until recently, but now under the Justice Department. Those are
very often mixed up with our centers. Even one of the members
of this committee got mixed up some weeks ago when he talked
about the good food and the wine that some Japanese used at Camp
Livinc-ston in Louisiana. Camp Livingston is not a relocation cen-
ter. It is an internment camp. That is the way rumors and mis-
understandings get started, because people do not differentiate too
definitely. Many people do not understand that people wlio have been
aliens, who have been particularly subversive, are not in relocation
centers ; they are in internment camps. They may be people that do
not have too good a history that are maintained there for the time
being.
ITN-AMERIC.\N PROPAGANDA ACTIVrTIES 9639
For example, we are not allowing people who have requested re-
patriation, who want to go back to Japan, to go out on leave, in
spite of the fact that most of these people are old people and sim-
ply disillusioned about their possibility of getting relocated in this
country after the war, and they have decided they might just as
well go back to the country of their birth.
I might say that the Japanese, in asking for repatriation, have
turned down most of those people. They have their own list, and
those we did check at the request of the State agency, only about
10 percent want to go back to Japan, that were on the Japanese list,
so there are all kinds of different reasons as to why people do things.
And, in this alien group, among the men averaging 60 years of age,
there are many, many people that are living quietly, calmly, causing
no trouljle at relocation centers that say they want to go back
to Japan.
Now, attached to those families are youngsters who have never
been any place but the United States and have gone through the
schools. ' It is going to cause a real problem with some of those boys.
Mr. MuNDT. Does not the success of your whole relocation program
depend, in large part, on ready community acceptance?
Mr, Myer. Right. We have very little difficulty with that. We
have had more acceptance on the part of the community than on the
part of some organizations, for the reason that with misinformation
floating around the country, with the prejudices that have developed
by the type of investigations carried on, by investigations of this
committee in the last 6 or 8 weeks which, in my judgment, has done
more damage to the relocation program, has invited more disunity
among the people of the United States and has developed racial
antipathy that may cause difficulty, and it even may cause trouljle,
or it will cause reaction against our war prisoners on the other side.
If some of this kind of thing winds up
Mr. MuNOT. As a matter of fact, is not the best way to pacify this
sentiment, to keep this community acceptance that we all desire to
operate, the establishment of stringent enough regulations before
evacuees are permitted to operate in private life, so that those in the
communities will know theyare operating with good, loyal citizens of
Japanese ancestry?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Congressman, may I make a statement? I agree
with you that is correct, and I believe we have established that. But
I would like to say
Mr. Mundt. Before you give your statement, I would like to in-
terrogate you a little further on that point. You have listed eight
points now operating as a basis for your examination of the loyalty
and background of these evacuees.
Mr. Myer. There are more points than that. Those points have to
be gone into by the directors and in
Mr. Mundt. Well, there are eight points to be checked. And it con-
tains this prohibitive clause: He has been mistrusted; that after this
explanation an examination should be made, because General Drum
does not feel that it is complete enough to give him indefinite leave
in the East; that the Japanese cannot locate in the Eastern Defense
Command, is that not correct ? I think you will agree General Drum
does that in the interest of national defense.
9640 un-america'n propaganda activities
Mr. Myer. General Drum thought all those cleared by the joint
board may locate in the Eastern Defense Command.
Mr. MuNDT. So that before they can locate in the Eastern Defense
Command, they have to have additional investigations by the joint
board.
Mr. Myer. The Japanese American joint board.
Mr. Mundt. They have to have that additional check before they
can locate here ; that is correct.
Mr. Myer. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. Now, do yon not really feel, Mr. Myer, that in promot-
ing this community acceptance, in which we 'are all interested, the
Japanese who fail to get a clean bill of health by that board should
be returned to the relocation centers ?
Mr. Myer. No; I do not feel it is necessary to do that. I feel if
it is feasible to have people within the inner part of the country who
are selected from areas, Germans or Italians, it may be feasible to
have people doing work in certain areas in the West or Midwest, that
maybe you would not have along your coastal areas, so I don't think
it is feasible. I think it would depend on the case. If they are bad,
they are rejected and they are taken back. But we know that.
Mr. CosTELLO. May I interrupt you ?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. Costello. You mentioned the fact that there has been no case
of sabotage. Do .you not thinks from the statements that have been
made by General Drum and General DeWitt, that they fear espionage
far more than sabotage?
Mr. Myer. Perhaps so. But I think you will find very little
espionage if you check with the Japanese ancestry. There have been
very few cases, and those have been English or white Americans
rather than Japanese. However, I am not saying that there have not
been cases of espionage, because there have. There have been in all
classes espionage. And, sure, they fear espionage nothing less than
sabotage. So do I. That is why we are being conservative in these
rules.
Let me point out again, gentlemen, that these people were allowed
to go as they wished across the country for the whole month of March
1942 without feeling that there was any danger.
Now, the minute we develop a careful, sound program, where we
are checking the records, where we are checking the background of
their history and leaning over backward to protect the internal secu-
rity of the 'United States, we have been criticized for releasing so-
called known saboteurs and espionage agents throughout the country,
with no justification whatsoever.
Some of you may have read Mr. Stripling's statement in the Wash-
ington Star on Saturday, May 29, again on Sunday morning. There
was absolutely no basis in fact, or if there was Mr. Stripling has
never supplied to me as yet one name of a known saboteur, who he
says was released throughout, the country, willy-nilly.
Now, gentlemen, may I read a statement?
Mr. Mundt. Be^fore you get to your statement, you do not deiy,
however, that you are releasing willy-nilly to the Middle West Japa-
nese whom the joint board, the Japanese American joint board, has
said are not entitled to a clean bill of health ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES * 9641
Mr. Myer. No; I won't say willy-nilly. We are releasing some
to the Middle West tlint have not been cleared by the joint board.
Mr. MuNDT. Who have been rejected.
Mr. Myer. No; I don't think there have been any rejections for
these releases. I will check that and give yon the facts regarding
it. I don't know of any cases where they were released for the Middle
West that have been reversed here, but I will check the facts.
Mr. Eberhakter. I think you said that Mv. Hoover, the Director
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, personally approved your
latest re.settleinent program.
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. Eberharter. Now, one other question. Did he approve that
by letter ?
]Mr. Myer. No. The Attorney General, in whose Department Mr.
Hoover is located, after my conference with Mr. Hoover and the
Attorney General, wrote me a letter approving the policy.
Mr. Eberharter. Would you be kind enough to supply that to the'
connnittee ?
Mr. Myer. I will be glad to put it in the record. I don't believe
I have a cop}^ with me, but I will put a copy in the record.
Mr. Eberharter. I ask that this be placed in the record," Mr.
Chairman.
(The letter referred to is contained in the committee file as an
exhibit.)
Do you have au}^ approval of your latest resettlement program from
the military authorities or from the War Department?
Mr. Myer. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Eberharter. By letter?
Mr. Myer. N(jt by letter. I discussed it with them verbally and
over the telephone and sent them a confirming memorandum again
just recently, to be sure that there was no misunderstanding about
it, which is on record, and I will be glad to supply a copy of that
statement; the confirmation that was made by the War Department
at that time.
Mr. Eberharter. Did you consider that you did have the approval
by the War Department of the latest resettlement program?
^ ISIr. ]Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, I will ask that that be placed in the record
at this point also.
Did you have an}^ approval, Mr. Myer, by the Navy Department,
of your latest resettlement program?
]\Ir. Myer. No; excepting by their general participation giving
approval. Tlie Navy have never entered into our problem except
as we work with the Office of Naval Intelligence on clearance cases.
They have never been a party to the evacuation directly. It had
been done by the War Department. So, our work has been almost
entirel}^ in cooperation Avith the AVar Department as far as the gen-
eral policy and i)roblems are concerned. However, we have worked
with the Naval Intelligence very closely. They have supplied us with
records and assisted us in many areas with our program.
Mr. Eberharter. You think the Navy Department might be will-
ing to give you a letter approving your latest resettlement program?
Mr. Myer. I have no cloubt that they will. I have not raised the
question.
9642 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTTVITIES
Mr. Eberharter. Will you be able to get us such a letter?
Mr. Myer. If you feel it is desirable, I should be glad to do ko,
Mr, Eberharter. If you can get it, I will ask that it be placed
in the record at this time.
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Costel'lo. This joint board is not functioning now, is it, Mr.
Myer ?
Mr. Myer. Yes ; it is functioning now ; meeting two or three times
a week, right along.
Mr. Costello. Has it functioned prior to the period of April 7y
when these new instructions were issued ?
Mr. Myer. It was established in January and started functioning,
I think, perhajDs in February or March. But, it has taken time for
us to get the records together and get them under v^ay.
Mr. Costello. And since the new instructions went out on April 7,
that we referred to herein-
Mr. Myer. That was April 2 in.stead of the Tth, Mr. Chairman.
Yes; they have been functioning right along. The joint board, how-
ever, does not take the responsibility for the indefinite leave procedure.
That is our responsibility. They simply collaborate with us in making
suggestions, providing information, and in relation to the Eastern
Defense Command they do make the clearances that are necessary.
Mr. MuNDT. The only place they come into the picture is in giving
this additional clearance for Japanese to come into the Eastern De-
fense Command.
Mr. Myer. Yes; all defense plant work the Provost Marshal's Office
is responsible for.
Mr. MuNDT. On the theory that a bad Jap in Baltimore is a good
Jap in Omaha; that is their job.
Mr. Eberharter. On defense plant work, does not that include de-
fense plant work all over ?
Mr. Myer. All over the United States ; that is right.
Mr. Eberharter. Which includes all the eastern border ?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, that seems to be different than we have been
imder the impression. We thought it was only the Eastern Defense
Command, but you say defense plants in any part of the country.
Mr. Myer. That is right. We held up the other day on the em-
ployment of a man by Swift & Co. in Omaha, because it was designated
as a defense plant. I don't know whether they allowed him to work.
Mr. Mundt. I knew that the board passed on all defense plants, but
the question was whether they could live in the Eastern Defense Com-
mand or away from there.
Mr. Costello. At the present time, the director of the center can
release evacuees located there without going through the Washing-
ton office at all. can he ?
Mr. Myer. That is correct. But, as fast as we get these various
checks on evacuees, he goes into it very fully. Most of those are al-
ready filed, so he has that information, together with the other in-
formation he has. He has the basic knowledge on the registration
blank and the record in the center of about 6 months. But, of course,
he is in touch with many additional questions about the individual.
Mr. Costello. In other, words, the individual names of those not to
.be allowed to be released have been separated, have they?
UN-AMEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9643
Mr. Mti;r. Yes; and a stop order has been put on their names in
those files.
Mr. CosTELLO. That becomes a part of the stop list that they have
created out there ?
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. Now, any names appearing on there are not allowed
to be released ?
Mr. Myer. Are not allowed to be released, at least until further
investigation or until the Director here approves it.
May I make a short statement ?
Mr. CosTELLO. Is it very long?
Mr. Myer. I would like to read it, if you don't mind.
Mr. CosTELLO. My only thought was, we might interrupt you a bit
while reading it, and it is rather late this afternoon, and it would be
better to have you do that in the morning.
Mr. Myer. If you gentlemen will bear with me just a few minutes,
please
Mr. CosTELLO. The question is, how long will it take?
Mr. Myer. It won't take very long. It will take just a few minutes
[reading] :
The manner in which the War Relocation Authority conducts its program is
of concern to all the people in the United States, and it has a significance whic'i
goes far b?yond the geographic boundaries of this country. Undoubtedly the
AV. R. A. program is being watched in Japan, where thousands of American
soldiers and civilians are held as prisoners or internees ; in China, India, Thai-
land. Burma, and many other countries whose collaboration we need if we are
to defeat our enemies with a minimum loss of life.
The manner in which the problem is treated has a dii*ect bearing on relations
with our allies in winning the war and on the position of this Nation in estab-
lishing the terms of peace.
Tlie grave international implications of this program demand that it be ap-
proached thoughtfully, soberly, and with maturity, and that public statements
concerning it be made only after thorough understanding of the facts.
The program of the War Relocation Authority has been under investigation
for the past 8 weeijs in such a manner as to achieve maximum publicity of
sensational statements based on half-truth, exaggerations, and falsehood ; state-
ment~; of witnesses have been released to the public without verification of
their accuracy, thus giving Nation-wide currency to many distortions and down-
right untruths.
This practice has fostered a public feeling of mistrust, suspicion, and hatred
that has had the effect of :
Providing tlie enemy with material which can be used to convince the peoples
of the Orient that the United States is undemocratic and is fighting a racial
war.
Undermining the unity of the American people.
Betraying the democratic objectives which this Nation and its allies are
fighting to preserve.
It may lead to further maltreatment of our citizens who are prisoners or
who are interned.
International News Service dispatch from Parker, Ariz., dated June
19 [reading] :
The Dies subcommittee investigating Japanese war relocation centers Saturday
had before it testimony disclosing the tlieft of 350 pounds of dynamite— enough
to blow up Parker Dam and menace the water supply for the Los Angeles area.
The dynamite was stolen recently from a tunnel 3 miles fi'om Parker, according
to the testimony, and was followed shortly afterward by theft of 100 fulminate
of mercury caps from a Government magazine.
The disclosures were related by Ralph F. Stringfellow, chief special agent of
the metropolitan water district of southern California.
"For 0 years Japanese engineers had access to all our maps and everything
else, right up to Pearl Hai-bor."
9644 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
He also testified tliat he was informed by tlie Poston procurement officer
Japanese leave camp "from 3 to 7 days at a time, and tliey don't know how many
men are in the camp, because they depend upon a check made by tlie Japanese."
Stringfellow's information admittedly vras second-hand. There is
no evidence whatever to indicate that Japanese evacuees had any con-
nection with the theft of dynamite, and the only evidence in connec-
tion with the theft of the dynamite caps points to two unidentified
Caucasians. There is no way of establishing how much dynamite
w^as stolen. The dynamite was 3 years old and was so deteriorated
that it was regarded as unsuitable for blasting, and the remaining
supply was ordered destroyed. The dynamite caps -were stolen ap-
proximately 50 days after the theft of the dynamite became known.
Linking the theft of an unknown amount of dynamite to the theft
of dynamite caps at least 50 days later and attributing either of them,
without a shred of supporting evidence, to evacuees is either near-
hysterical or malicious.
In a signed statement dated June 21, Stringfellow said :
The quoted statements attributed to me in accounts I have read are not com-
plete statements, and these statements, as well as the inferences and implications
of the statements, lead to a false and garbled picture of .the testimony I gave
befoi-e the subcommittee.
Mr. MuNDT, Did Mr. Stringfellow deny this statement?
Mr, Myer. He signed a statement to investigators who went from
the Interior Department to investigate the whole affair following
this statement of the subcommittee. I will be very glad to supply
to the committee a full copy of the investigation report.
Gentlemen, the only reason I bring that fact out is that since those
facts were published, since Stringfellow came into the picture, we
have had more hysterical letters on the part of people who believe
everything that is said in the public press. And, in my judgment,
that sort of thing is going to lead to difficulties which may react
against our war prisoners over there if somebody becomes violent
enough to kill a Japanese because they think he is a saboteur.
Mr. CosTELLO. Was the statement of Mr. Stringfellow to the inves-
tigators of the Interior Department under oath?
Mr. jNIter. I am sure it was. I will sui)p]y it for the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. The statements he made before this committee were
under oath at the time they were made.
Mr. Myer. All I am doing is quoting from the record.
Mr. Costeelo. The only question is whether he denied that the
theft of the 350 pounds of dynamite was
Mr. Myer. xVll I am saying is, there is no positive evidence that
there was a theft of 350 pounds of dynamite by Japanese evacuees.
]\Ir. CoSTEELO. But then you also make the hearsay statement that
the dynamite that was stolen was at least 2 or 3 years old.
Mr. Myer. Well, alleged to have been stolen, I should have said.
Mr. CosTEixo. Or 3 years old.
Mr. Myer. Yes; about 3 years old. The mine in which it is al-
leged— well, the Bureau of Mines people ordered it destroyed, because
Ihey said it was unsafe to handle. It was probably between 2 and 3
years old. And, the theft of the caps was some 50 days after the report
of the alleged theft of the dynamite, so that there doesn't seem to be
any connection.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9645
Mr. INIuNDT. Before you proceed, Mr. INIyer, you have been very
eloquent and domonstraf ive in the criticism of the way in which the
conuuittee ha.-; hehl its hearings. As a ])ul)lic oilicial, I believe in the
fine art of criticism. The implication of your remarks is that you are
also criticizing the committee that we did not exclude the press from
these hearinirs.
Mr. MvER. There is no implication.
Mr. MuxDT. AVe thought the public was entitled to have the benefit
of their testimony, whether they had been dismissed by 3^011 tempo-
rarily, resigned, or whether they were allegedly reputable citizens
whom you charged with telling untruths, like the mayor of Los An-
geles or the employees of the Metropolitan Water District people
who, presumably, were responsible for its guardianship, and we
thought tlie best way to find out was to have tdie svitnesses present,
and if they did make a misstatement, that the same agency would be
available to them, that is, those who wished to corroborate the state-
ment or deny the statement. If you have a brief statement, I wish you
would advise the committee.
Mr. Myer. 1 appreciate the opportunity, Mr. Congressman. Let me
say, first, that I did not say that the mayor w^as telling knowingly an
untruth. I think ho thought he was truthful. The facts that he gave
Avere untrue al)out Mv. Kuru. 1 am stating that he was misinformed.
I am not charging anvbodv with malicious untruths.
Mr. CosTFLLO. The only error in the testimony of the mayor re-
garding Kuru was, he made the statement that Kuru had been released
from the war I'elocation camp, or center, when, in fact
Mr. Myer. He had been released by the W. C. C. A.
Mr. C'osTELiiO. From the Santa Anita center bj^ the W. C. C. A.
Mr. Myer. Those releases were not allowed without the special
approval, you will find, of General DeWitt himself.
5lr. CosTELLo. I do not know what the details w^ere. But, Kuru was
released from the Santa Anita center directly and he, as an individual,
had no<^ been assigned to any relocation center.
Mr. Myer. That is correct, but that is an important fact in con-
nection with the testimon}'.
Mr. Costello. In other words, he testified before us
Mr. Myer. That was not pulilicized in the paper, and I simply
wanted the facts gotten before the public in the proper way.
Mr. CosTELLO. He testified on Thursday, and I think you wired on
Friday. He subsequently testified and corrected that error.
Mr. ]MrxDT. There was a correction in the paper.
Mr. MvEU. Oh. it was^ I am sorry, I didn't read it.
I want to go back to that statement. I have no criticism or any
criticism that will allow the full facts to be checked. At no time
have I ever tried to censure the press. I believe in the principles of
this country, including a free press. I did, in a letter to Chairman
Dies of this committee, offer our collaboration after Mr. Stripling's
statement of ]May 27. and again in the papers the following morn-
ing, to check the policy statements regarding this Authority before
the statements were released by the press or by representatives of the
committee. I have not yet had an answer to that letter, and that was
over a month ago.
I wired Mr. Costello on Juno 8, before the hearings Avere started
in Los Antreles, and offered him the services of our field assistant
62626 — 13 — vol. 15 52
9646 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
director to check the testimony of these witnesses, regarding the policy
of the W. R. A., before it was released to the press. The only state-
ment I ever heard regarding that was a statement in the press that
seemed to imply that I was trying to censor the press, and I want to
say to you, ladies and gentlemen of the press, I am not trying to
censor the press.
Mr. CosTELLo. Do you happen to have a copy of that particular
telegram with you?
Mr. Myek. I think I do. I will be very glad to read it and p.ut it
into the record. This telegram is dated June 7. I made a mistake
on the date [reading] :
Congressman John M. Costello,
Care of Dies Committee, Los Angeles, Calif.:
I am informed that a«subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activity
under your chairmanship is opening hearings today in Los Angeles to investigate
activities of Japanese and Japanese Americans in this country. Tlie War Relo-
cation Authority will welcome the opportunity to cooperate with the committee
by su::plying information on those phases of the problem for which this agency
is responsible.
Because of recent statements in the press attributed to members and repre-
sentatives of your committee, in which facts have been garbled, I suggest it may
be helpful to have statements concerning policies and procedures of the War
Relocation Authority checked before statements are released to the press. To
this end, while you are on the coast, I am glad to offer you the services of Mr.
R. B. Cozzens, field assistant director of this agency, whose headquarters are in
the Whitcomb Hotel, San Francisco. Mr. Cozzens is thoroughly conversant with
the War Relocation Authority program, and he will be at your disposal to assist
in any way by supplying or checking information.
DiixoN S. Myer, Director.
Mr. Costello. Before you proceed, let us take a look at this tele-
gram you have here. You use the expression here :
Because of recent statements in the press attributed to members and repre-
sentatives of your committee in which facts have been gnrbled, I suggest it
may be helpful to have statements concerning policies and procedures of the
War Relocation Authority checked before statements are released to the press.
In other words, was it not your intention then that this committee,
at the time of their hearings, should call upon Mr. Cozzens and have
him go over any releases that might be made to the press and have him
directly censor those releases before they were given out ?
Mr. Myer. Let me give you an example of what I had in mind.
This is the best way I can get it before you.
On May 26, 1942 — note the date — testimony was taken by repre-
sentatives, of this committee from Harold H. Townsend, a former
employee at the Colorado River relocation center, litis testimony
was not released until June 10, after the acting project director and
the administrative officer of the project had testified. The Townsend
testimony included 39 known falsehoods. In his very first statement,
Townsend falsely claimed that he served in the armed forces of the
United States during the last war. The records show that he was
chief of guards of the Carter Oil Co. in Oklahoma all during the
war and was employed by the Y. M. C. A. as hut superintendent 3
months after the war was over.
This is the same man who deserted his post of duty during the
November strike at Poston, took a Government car, and left the
project in a fit of terror.
UN-AMEKICAN PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9647
Towiisend made many false statements regarding waste of food,
food policies, number of warehouses, activities during the strike at
Poston in November, and other matters. All of this testimony might
have been checked against the facts between May 26 and June 10
had the committee investigators been interested in securing the facts
The "War Relocation Authority offered to collaborate and cooperate
in any way in checking information of this type before it was released
to the public, but we were not atforcled this opportunity.
Mr. CosTELLO. May I ask a question at this point '. You say he
left the project in a fit of terror.
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr, CosTELLo. Did he not ask permission to leave the project before
he left?
Mr. Mter. He did not, according to my understanding.
Mr. CosTELLO. The testimon}^ before this committee indicates that
he did ask his superior for permission to take his wife from the
center, and was granted that permission to leave and to take his wife
home. And, the testimony was that they believed his home was in
Los Angeles, when it turned out that he was taking his wife to her
mother's place in Oklahoma. But, he did not leave the center without
first requesting that permission from one of his superiors, and was
granted permission to leave.
Mr. Mter. I will be glad to have Mr. Head or Mr. Evans check
that.
Mr. CosTELLO. I think you own testimony should be just as accu-
rate as the testimonj^ you are criticizing.
Mr. Myer. I am trying to make them accurate, and I am basing
it on facts supplied me from Poston.
Mr. MuNDT. We were supplied our facts from Mr. Gelvin and
Mr. Empie.
Mr. Myer. We will have to get those facts together.
Mr. CosTELLo. That was sworn testimony before our own committee.
Mr. Myer. Now, gentlemen, I have another memorandum I would
like to present, but
Mr. Costello. I may state at this point the testimony of Mr. Town-
send was received prior to the arrival in Los Angeles of the other two
members of the rommittee. The testimony was under oath and it
was not made in the presence of the press. At the original confer-
ence, it was the understanding that possibly the hearings might be
executive hearings on the Pacific coast, and it was determined sub-
sequently that they should not be executive but that they should be
public hearings and the members of the press permitted to sit in on
those hearings, and the testimony of Mr. Townsend was not released
until it was generally substantiated by subsequent witnesses who
appeared before tlie committee and it was not until the general facts
contained in liis testimony had been fully substantiated that the testi-
mony taken from ^Ir. Townsend was released as a part of the hear-
ings of the full committee.
Mr. ]Mter. Mr. Chairman. I have a complete analysis of Mr. Town-
send'? testimony with me in mimeographed form that I will be glad
to supply vou for the record and the members of the press, which I
think will indicate that it was not generally valid testimony. And,
it came from Poston, from affidavits, froin individuals at Poston
9648 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
who were responsible for the different operations of the pro2;ram
there, following- the securing of the testimony from this committee
after it was announced on June 10. I still insist that there was ample
opportunity between May 26 and June 10 to have had a chance to
corroborate this testimony and to check it completely before it was
released to the press. I believe you will agree
Mr. CosTELLO. The idea of this committee is to get down to the solid
facts in regard to the matters, and it is our desire to have nothing
but the facts revealed. If there has been any distortion of facts, we
are just as anxious to correct them as you are.
Mr. Myer. I am quite sure of that.
Mr. CosTELLO. And I am quite sure the meml^ers of the committee
will be glad to take that matter up with you tomorrow morning
and we can go over the matters of falsehood that are contained, that
you allege, in Mr. Townsend's statement. But, I think that the facts
will show that the testimony that was received on the Pacific coast
by the various witnesses, in the main, substantiates the statements
contained in Mr. Townsend's testimony.
Mr. Myer. I will be glad to have you read the rebuttal.
Mr. CosTELLO. We will go into that specifically tomorrow morning.
Mr. Matthews. I was just going to call attention to page 235 of
the typed transcript of Mr. Empie's testimony. Mr. Empie testified
that Mr. Townsend left with a regular leave card ; left the camp.
Mr. Myer. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that no one can leave a
relocation center without a leave card. However, my information
may be wrong.
Mr. MuNDT. He may be returning.
Mr. Myer. Then the military police would stop him. He would
have to have a pass out of the center. My information is that he
left the center without the approval of the project director in charge.
He could have gotten a leave card to pass out of the center, I suppose,
from other people.
Mr. CosTELLO. You mean, the project director?
Mr. Myer. The acting director, Mr. Evans.
Mr. CosTELLo. Mr. Head at the time was not in charge?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Evans was in charge as acting director.
Mr. CosTELLO. And he did not get his leave card from Mr. Evans,
but he did get a leave card from Mr. Empie or from someone else ?
Mr. Myer. No one can leave relocation centers, if the orders are
followed by the secretary, without a pass; neither can they get in
without a pass, because those items are checked by the military police.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would he have the right to draw up his own pass?
Mr. Myer. I am not sure. He was in charge, at that time, of trans-
portation and supplies and he may have had authority from the act-
ing director to draw up his own pass, because there were people
working under him, going in and out at times, and he may have been
authorized to do so.
Mr. Costello. I think the testimony will show further that it was
not merely a leave card that he presented
Mr. Myer. I will be glad to be corrected if I am wrong.
Mr. CosTELLO. He specifically inquired of one of his superiors, ask-
ing whether or not he might not take his wife from the center and
take her home, and the testimony went right on at some length
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9649
Mr. Myer. I am willino; to (rraiit, Mr. Chairman, I may not have
that exactly accurate. I think the facts generally, though, will stand
up under the test of scrutiny.
Mr. MuNDT. Back to this telegram, Mr. Myer, in which you severely
take the committee to task
Mr. Myer. No; I don't take the committee severely to task. I just
want it on the record, knowing that we offered to cooperate in every
way and I have tried to get facts into the record for the last 6 or 7
•weeks.
Mr. MuNDT. I want to help you get on the record very clearly what
you had in mind for this committee to do.
Mr. Matthews. I can give you the exact testimony when you want
it, from ^Ir. Empie.
Mr. Cc>sTELL0. You might clear that point up.
Mr. Matthew^s. The questioner said [reading] :
But. you did give him permission to take his wife home?
Answer :
I gave him permisison to leave the project on leave. He told me that he
wanted to take his wife home.
That is page 239.
Mr. CosTELLO. ^^lio was answering the question ?
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Empie. .
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr, Empie was the witness at that time.
Mr. Myer. I stand corrected.
Mr. CosTELLo. A^^iat is Mr. Empie's position at the center ; are you
aware of that ?
Mr. Myer. I believe administrative officer, was his title,
Mr. CosTELLO. He was one of the assistants to Mr. Head; is
that not correct?
Mr. Myer. He was charged generally with administrative services,
and Mr. Townsend was under his immediate supervision at that time.
Mr. MuxDT. Mr. Myer, I think you have a perfect right to go on
record to say how these hearings should be held, because we might
have to hold further hearings. You know how we hold them. We
put the witness under oath. "We invite the press. We hear both
sides of the story.
We did not in any way attempt to censor or call attention to any
particular phase and the committee made no statement of policy
whatsoever until the hearings were completed, at which time ten
points were listed, which 3'ou have not as yet criticized.
Now, in your telegram to Mr. Costello you say that [reading] :
Because of recent statements in the press attributed to members and repre-
sentatives f)f your committee in which facts have been garbled I suggest it
may be lielpful to have statements concerning policies and procedures of the
War Relocation Authority checked before statements are released to the press.
In the paper you read from, you went further and suggested that
it was inadvisable to have these witnesses project their testimony
through the press in the manner in which they did. Just how would
you have handled it?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, we offered, let me repeat, before the
hearings were ever held in Los Angeles, to supply the committee
with the facts regarding the policy of this Authority ; in relation to
food : in relation to all the other policies.
9650 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
There had not until that time, or there had not up until last Satur-
day afternoon, been any member of the committee or any representa-
tive of this committee, any investigator, ever contact me on anything
until Mr. Stripling called me in the middle of the afternoon last
Saturday and asked me to appear here at 10 o'clock today. We have
offered and we wanted to supply the facts.
Now I want to present an example of what I am talking about.
In spite of the fact that the committee investigators secured the
full facts regarding the food policies of the W. R. A. at the first
center visited on May 12, 1942, including facts about rationing costs
and other limitations, five different misleading statements were re-
leased by members of the committee, by representatives of the com-
mittee or by witnesses before the committee between May 19 and
June 17, 1943.
Then there followed an article on May 19 about Camp Livingston,
which is an internment camp. It has no reference to relocation centers
at all.
Secondly, I want to refer to the story in the Times-Herald May
28, which story was to the effect that no rationing was in effect and
that they were being well fed. Then there followed the A. P. dis-
patch attributed to investigators.
Let me read just three or four pages to show you what happened.
I am not spying that all of this was a matter of investigative pro-
cedure by the Congress. I am saying though, while this all was going
on, statements were coming out from investigators which were mis-
leading to the public. Let me give you an example, will you?
Mr. MuNDT. Answer the question first in your own way, and don't
get off the beam.
Mr. Myer. I will come back.
Mr, MuNDT. O. K.
Mr. Myer [reading] :
In a dispatch from Los Angeles on May 19, the Associated Press reported that
Representative Thomas had telegraphed President Roosevelt urging that War
Relocation Authority stop release of evacuees from relocation centers. The
Congressman vpas aiso reported to have commented on the case of a wealthy
Japanese from Los Angeles who had b?eii apprehended by the Federal Bureau of
Investigation and sent to Camp Livingston. La. The following statement was
attributed to Representative Tiiomas as a direct quote.
Mr. MuNDT. In fairness to Mr. Thomas, who is a member of this
subcommittee, but who was not present at any of the hearings out
there, maybe you should limit your criticism to the hearings that we
actually held.
Mr. Myer. I am simply trying to correct a statement or statements
that were attributed to members of the committee so that the com-
mittee members may know.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Thomas had no part in these hearings.
Mr. Myer. Well, I think it is important so that the facts will be
clear as to what are relocation camps and what are internment camps.
"It has been reliably reported that he [the interned Jap'anesel has stated the
food and wine at his camp are excellent and that he is concerned only with his
expanding waistline. Are we to release this fat-waisted Jap while our American
boys on Guadalcanal 'arc barely receiving enough food with which to keeij alive?"
Comment : The clear implication of the remark allegedly made by Repre-
sentative Thomas is that the interned Japanese may well be released from Camp
Livingston under the leave procedures of the War Relocation Authority. Camp
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9651
Livinffston is an internment ciimp administered by the Department of Justice
Its inmates are in no way eligible to apply for leave under the program ol: ihe
War Relocation Authority.
Mr. MuNDT, Have you finished?
Mr. CosTELLO. May I ask a question there? I notice he is quoted
as having said "interned Japanese," indicating that he knew it was
an internment camp, and he was referring to them as interned Japa-
nese.
Mr. Myer. May I read it again?
Are we to release this fat-waisted Jap while our American boys on Guadalcanal
are barely receiving enough food with which to keep alive?
Now, the implication is that W. R. A. is doing the releasing.
Mr. ISIuNDT. Mr. Myer. are any of these internees at Livingston
ever released by immigration boards or anybody else?
Mr. ISIyek. Yes; there have been a few cases of release. Most of
them are paroled and many of them are in our relocation centers as
parolees, under definite instructions.
Mr. JkluNDT. Mr. Tliomas' question was not entirely rhetorical then,
was it ?
Mr. Myer. My point was that the implication in this story and many
others Avas to stir up people to lead them to think
Mr. MuNDT. He was in California at the time ; was he not ?
Mr. Myer. I know he was, supposedly conducting an investigation
of W. R. A. in Los Angeles, preliminary to your trip out there.
Mr. CosTELLO. The fact is that many of these interned Japanese in
camps or in internment are being released from those internment
camps and many of them have been returned to relocation camps
under your authority; is that not correct?
Mr. Myer. As parolees.
Mr. CosTELLO. That is right.
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. CosTEij.o. But the fact is that many who have been interned
by the F. B. I. are subsequently released from camps of internment.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, there are two implications in that state-
ment that I think are bad. One of them is that we are supplying
wine and too much food to evacuees, which has been an old trick of
all the people who have been shooting at the W. R. A. program from
the start. The second implication is that we are doing tlie releasing
of these interned people and mixing it up with the relocation centers.
Mr. CosTELLO. Let me call your attention to one fact regarding the
food situation. I do not know what others may have done, or those
sniping at ^V. R. A., and so on. Suc*h is not our function. But I
think it can be definitely shown by testimony at our hearings in Los
Angeles that very definitely pointed out the fact that as far as food
was concerned, the Japanese in the relocation centers were receiving
approximately the same amount of food as civilians in civilian life.
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
;Mr. CosTELLO. And that the coupon value of the food for Japanese
evacuees was equivalent to the coupon value of the food per civilian
on the outside, and I think our committee during the course of these
hearings brought that point out very definitely and very clearly.
Mr. Myer. I give you credit, ^Nlr. Chairman ; you did.
Mr. CosTELXO. We did criticize the excess supplies of food, particu-
larly stored at Heart IMountain.
9652 UN- AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myer. So did I.
Mr. CosTELio. And some other locations.
Mr. Myer. Yes. Well, I do not know the details, but I think these
newspaper folks will agree with me that that did not make as good
headlines as Mr. Townsend's story and, we will sa5\ that food was
being cached all over the desert and cached under buildings. I don't
believe you found any when you were out there.
Mr. CosTELLo. It was a little w^arm that day.
Mr. Myer. I simply want to say that I do give you credit, and I
appreciate the fact tliat the committee did make that statement. But
I had to hunt for it.
Mr. CosTELLO. The statement was also made that bread was being
stolen and dried and buried out in the desert. I think anybody who
has any knowledge of bread at all would realize that dried-out Joread,
lying out iii the desert sands for months, would not be of much use
for Japanese paratroopers.
Mr. Myer. But you will find many people believe that is the case.
A lot of people never saw that Arizona desert out there, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. MuNDT. This might also be recorded. ]Mr. Myer. As far as Mr.
Townsend, we also questioned him, and I do not think any of the
committee members accepted his testimony in any instance except
where it was corroborated by other witnesses, particularly those in
your employ, but INIr. Townsend did not start all these rumors about
food in these relocation centers. There were a lot of them going up
and down the coast before the committee went into the hearings.
Mr. Myer. I agree with that. I appreciate wdiat the hearing was
up against.
Mr. MuisrnT. Now, then, you said you objected to the press being
present at the hearing that day.
Mr. Myer. I am not objecting to have the press represented. I
am delighted to have the press represented. The only thing I am
sorry about is that we were not invited to be there, too, so that we
could check some of these facts before the press published them.
That was my only suggestion of criticisfn against the way you held
your hearing.
Let me point this out. I am not criticizing the hearings, neces-
sarily. I am criticizing, and I am very frank about it, some of the
releases put out by your investigators while the hearings were going
on or before they were going on. Let me read one.
Mr. MuxDT. The plain intent of the telegram which you sent to
the chairman of the subcommittee was definitely to censor any news
releases that might be put out.
Mr. Myer. No; not censor. I wanted to have the opportunity to
have our statements made at the same time as some of these witnesses
who had been fired from the centers, and who were disgruntled, so
that the press could have the information on both sides.
Mr. CosTELLO. It would not be physically possible for vou to have
sat in one chair and the witness in another, and every time the wit-
ness made a statement, you made a counterstatement.
Mr. Myer. They could have been available, had you invited Mr.
Cozzens to be down there. But, I do appreciate having my day here,
where I can talk about it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9653
Mr. CosTFXLO. Frankly, our intention from the very be^^inning was
to consult with you at tiie start.
]\Ir. Myer. I am sure of that.
Mr. CosTELLO. But, it would have been futile for us to call you
in here, at a AVashin<rton hearinir, as a witness and ask you a few
questions about matters which we knew practically nothing- of.
JMr. ]\Iyer. I am sorry you did not call me before you went to
California.
Mr. CosTELLO. We most probably would not have had a question
to ask you. We would have listened to a statement from you and
that would have been the end of the story. The only thinjy that
this connnittee could do was to go out and get the facts. That is
why thev investigated the centers before hearings were held, to ob-
tain some information regarding the situation. Then, after the in-
vestigation was made, we called in the witnesses, because the wit-
nesses were more available in that locality and then, to conclude those
hearings, we moved to Washington to take up the other end of the
story, where it is more convenient for yourself to appear as a witness
and other members of your staff. It would have been utterly futile
to call you as the first witness until we had obtained the facts and
information from the variotis witnesses regarding the situation.
^Ir. ]Myer. The only things I criticize, Mr. Chairman, are two
things. One was the fact that your investigators, before any hear-
ing was ever held, were releasing statements to the press, many of
which were untrue ; secondly, that witnesses who had been discredited,
because of the fact that they were incompetent and could not carry
on the program of the W. R. A., were brotight before the committee
before we had a chance to present facts at the same time. That is
the only criticism I have.
I appreciate, and I want you to know I appreciate the privilege
of coming before this committee, and in support of what I have just
stated here, I wottld like to read one more statement and then I am
through, Mr. Chairman, if you care to stop for this evening.
This statement was attributed to investigators of the committee in
an A. P. dispatch dated May 31 :
A week's shipment to Manzanar from the quartermaster depot at Mira Loma,
Calif., iiiclurled 22.500 pounds of white potatoes, 1,330 pounds of coffee. 12,000
pounds of hard wheat tlour. 12,000 pounds of soft-wheat flour, 12,000 pounds of
pancake tlour, more than 5.700 jars of marmalades and .iams, 14.400 cans of
evaporated milk. ISO.OOO pounds of rice. 7,200 pounds of spaghetti, 21.500 pounds
of su.sriir, 2.500 pounds of bananas. 120 boxes of grapefruit containing 300 grape-
fruit per box, 240 boxes of oranges containing 2C0 oranges per box. 240 boxes
of apples and 26,000 pounds of fresh vegetables, 10,000 pounds of beef, 5,000
pounds of pork, 2.800 pounds of mutton. 1.200 pounds of salt pork, 2,200 pounds
of frankfurters, 2.000 pounds of poi'k livers. 4.r;00 pounds of corned beef, 2,800
pounds of fresh pork sausage, and 2,200 pounds of bologna.
Mr. Eberiiaeter. Is tliat all, bologna?
Mr. Myer. Yes. It looks to me there was more bologna in there
than that, but they say only 2,200 pounds.
Mr. EnERiiARTER. "Uliat ai-e you quoting from?
Mr. Myer. I am quoting from a news item given out by the investi-
gators, presumably of this committee. It further says
Mr. Co.sTELLo. ^Y\mt was the date of that release?
Mr. ;Myer. The A. P. dispatch is dated May 31, quoting an investi-
gation of the committee.
'9654 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Eberharter. We ought to have for the record the newspaper
clipping.
Mr. Myek. I will supply for the record a copy of the clipping. This
is our copy. Our statement on it is this :
(a) The statement that evacuees at relocation centers are "among the best-fed
civilians in the world" is highly dubious and definitely misleading. In March
1943 when point rationing of food became effective, the War Relocation Authority
registered with the Office of Price Administration as an "institutional user" of
rationed foods and became subject to all rationing restrictions applicable to
such users. The Authority has gone beyond Office of Price Administration
requirements for institutional users and has established food-consumption quotas
for relocation centers on exactly the same per capita basis as those applicable
to the civilian population of the United States as a whole. Even- before point
rationing went into effect the Authority practiced voluntary rationing in ac-
cordance with quotas suggested by the Office of Price Administration. The
cost of food served to evacuees at the centers has never exceeded 46 cents per
person per day and it has been the constant policy of the Authority to avoid
purchase of foods which are not available to the public generally or which are
locally in short supply.
(b) The statement that canned pork and beans have been purchased and
stocked at relocation centers is wholly untrue. The phrase "chocolate bars,"
conveying the impression that evacuees are being provided with candy bars,
is misleading. The Authority has occasionally purchased baking chocolate as
a substitute for cocoa when the latter commodity was not available. Candy bars,
however, have never been furnished to evacuees in the mess halls at relocation
centers.
(c) Whether intentionally or not, this paragraph clearly conveys the implica-
tion that the quantities indicated were intended for 1 week's use at jManzanar.
The fact is that only coffee, meats, fre.sh fruits, fresh vegetables, dairy products,
and lard are received weekly. Other foods are received monthly. As previously
noted, consumption of all rationed foods is strictly limited to civilian quotas, and
the per capita cost is also strictly limited.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that is indicative of my concern of the
procedures. I have not objection — and I want to have this clear — ^to
having the press present. I am delighted. I have no objection to
having you folks hear witnesses that you feel have a contribution to
make.
I do have an objection, during the interim period until the full facts
are brought before this committee, of having representatives of this
committee continually releasing statements to the press which can be
misquoted or which can be misinterpreted, and some of which are un-
true, because I don't think that that is fair to the United States of
America in these wartimes, when we need unity worse than we need
anything else in the world. That is my feeling about the matter.
Mr. CosTELLO. Regarding your last statement about the foodstuffs,
is it not a fact that the foodstuffs for the War Relocation Authority
are procured through the Army Quartermaster ?
Mr. Mter. That is a fact. That has been true right from the start
in the case of all those things that have been supplied there. We occa-
sionally go into the open market. As you undoubtedly recall
Mr. CosTELLO. And, on the matter of food, as I understand it, the
Army Quartermaster buys almost exclusively grade A food.
Mr. Myer. The beef at Manzanar, where this was being quoted, was
quoted as prime beef. It was definitely fourth-grade beef. The
Army military police at that center will not utilize the food as they
do at some of the other centers, from that warehouse, from our food
supply, because it is not good enough for them.
UN-AMERICAN" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9655
Mr. CosTELLO. I, myself, as I recall reading over some of those lists,
saw the notation for grade A as Prime No. 1, and so on. I did see in
one instance, as I recall, a No. 3 grade of beef.
Mr. Myer. No. 3 grade of beef is what we order generally.
Mr. CoSTELLO. The testimony that was presented to the committee
indicated that all during tliat period, in soutliern California particu-
larly, and I might say in all of California, starting in last December
and lasting for some 2 or 3 months in fact, even up until April, there
was a very definite shortage of beef in California. There was no
shortage at any time in any of the relocation centers.
Ml*. Meyer. I beg to differ with you.
Mr. CosTELLO. I do not think there should be a shortage there, but
the fact is the testimony showed that the Japanese 'in the relocation
centers were getting actually at that time a better supply of meat than
was available to civilians in California.
Mr. Myer. Are you sure that that is true of all centers or did you
just check Poston in relation to that, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. CosTELLO. We did not check all the centers, but my understand-
ing was that the meat being purchased through the Army Quarter-
master was available to the War Relocation Authority.
Mr. JSIyer. There were many, many times that we were short of
meat in centers. It has not always been at the same time, but we have
been short and there have been times when they have gone for days at
a time with no meat to serve. That is all right ; that is what I do every
once in a while. I have no criticism of that. I simply want the facts
made clear that that has been true.
I would like to make one other statement about that. We have in
•effect and have had for some time a ruling that there shall be two
meatless days at the projects, which is not required of the people on
the outside, in addition to the other rationing restrictions.
Mr. CosTELLO. You say the fact that the shortage stories have gone
out and that the evacuees have been getting the best food, are mis-
leading. Do you not think propaganda going back to the Orient, that
the Japanese evacuees are being so w.ell treated, might have a bene-
ficial effect rather than a harmful one?
Mr. Myer. I don't think it will have any harmful effect on our
prisoners, but it is doing a lot of damage in this country to the pro-
gram, and it is taking up a great deal of manpower, Mr. Chairman,
to answer the letters that come in regarding such statements, and I
think it might be used better for some other purpose.
Mr. CosTELLO. I can sympathize with you, because that is always a
problem, but you do make the statement that it is providing the enemy
with material concerning this country that might have a beneficial
effect on them in the Orient.
Mr. Myer. I am not referring particularly to the fact statements.
I am talking about the general statements that have been developed
and which, at least, develop in the minds of the public and which may
lead to overt acts on the part of the public which could very drastically
result in violence.
Now, I am not thinking only of the Japanese. I am thinking of the
"Chinese and the Hindus and the other far eastern people who are
orientals, when we developed an attitude of what seems to be develop-
ing here, of racial reaction generally, and they are our allies, so that
9656 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
the whole problem, I thijik, is intermingled not only with the prob-
lem of war prisoners, but internally with our allies.
Mr. CosTELLO. I tliink the sentiment is such on the Pacific coast, as
v/ell as in Arizona and other locations, from the letters we received, that
the indiscriminate release of evacuees to those areas would bring about
some complications that would be far more serious than anything we
could dream of.
Mr. Myfr. Perhaps so. There are none to be released to the Pacific
coast, as you know.
Mr. CosTELLO. But that was the intention of W. R. A., to have
the evacuees released to the Pacific coast.
Mr. Mter. That policy Jias never been controlled by the War Re-
location Authority at any time. Our authority is subject to Executive
Order 90G6, which puts that in the hands of the military and has been
determined by them from the start. It still is the policy that they
determine. We abide by it to the letter.
I\Ir. CosTELLo. But, was it not the desire of W. R. A. to have that
policy altered.
Mr. Myer. I won't say that we have not suggested the possibility
at different stages of the game. We have made some suggestions.
However, we have talked of a number of policies that have been under
consideration. We considered or suggested, among other things, that
perhaps veterans of the last war, who were made citizens of the United
States, because they served in the Army, some of whom have the
Croix de Guerre and the Purple Heart, might be allowed to go back
to their homes, and perhaps certain other cases checked up by the
Provost Marshal's office and the Joint Board might ultimately be
allowed to go back and perhaps others of the armed forces, with
otherwise good records.
We also recommended that selective service be established for the
Nisei group generally. I am still recommending that. I have recom-
mended it publicly a good many times and I recomniend it now, be-
cause I think it is essential ; not only to the problems we are carrying
out, but I think it is essential from the standpoint of treatment of
citizens generally.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you not think that through the misguidance of
some of these individuals, if any one of these evacuees were to be
murdered, let us say, by reason of some of them being hot-headed,
that that sort of a story going back to Japan would do this country
far greater damage and far greater harm than any other single thing?
Mr. Mter. I think it would do damage. I am not so sure that it
will do greater damage than some of the other stories, particularly
when you put them together and wrap them in a package. I think
the culminating effects of the tramp, tramp of the racial antagonism
which are developing, may have more effect on the attitude of our
allies in the Far East and cause more trouble than perhaps the death
of some one individual.
However, I am greatly concerned, Mr. Chairman, about the possi-
bility of overt acts. That is one reason that I am greatly concerned
about misinformation and wrong information going out to the public,
because it simply sears the emotions more deeply, not only in Cali-
fornia but in other parts of the country.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9657
Mr. CeiSTELLO. You spoke of misinformation and you also men-
tioned 37 known false releases. Do you have a copy of that that
you can leave with the committee?
Mr. Myo{. Yes, I will be very glad to supply that for the record.
(The material referred to is contained in the committee file as an
exhibit.)
Mr. Co^TELLO. That contains all of the particular falsehoods which
you could enuriierate?
Mr. Myer. That contains the premise, I think, regarding the Town-
send testimony, because a copy of the testimony was supplied to
Poston, and they provided the facts that refer to the testimony.
Mr. CosTELLo. Do you have any other false statements other than
tliese ?
Mr. Myer. I have other statements I can supply for the record. Do
you mean tomorrow?
Mr. CosTELLO. Yes.
Mr. Myek. I will be available, and I will supply statements from
time to time.
Mr. CosTELLO. AVe will, in all probability, meet at 10 : 30.
Mr. Myer. Fine.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. You brought up the subject here of food and what
the committee investigators should not say. As you know, the subject
of food is not one of particular concern with this committee.
Mr. My'er. I realize that.
Mr. MuNDT. The conunittee has not made any recommendation on
the matter of food or any criticism that the Japanese in the camps
are being fed too well or inadequate. We have been, naturally,
concerned, as a part of the Congress, that there be no waste, or that
extravagance of any kind shoukl not be allow^ed in the use of food.
Now. here is a chance for you to clear up tomorrow morning, if
you can, a news story that has spread all over the west coast after
our visit to Poston. When we were out there we saw trucks at the
Poston camp dumping, in truck loads, spinach, boxes and all, out on
the desert sands. We asked Mr. Head and the project authorities
that evening liow in the world they happened to be dumping that
spinach in the desert. And they told us that the spinach had arrived,
from wherever they ordered it, and there was spoilage, and they
hauled it away and dumped it.
We raised the point, in so doing, whether they would not jeopardize
their opportunity to collect from the railroads. And, they said "No."
It is kind of wasteful to throw the boxes away. They said they did
not realize that.
I wish you would find out from Poston, or your records, and let us
know about that in the morning.
Mr. ^Iyer. I will l)e glad to check the facts, if I can. I am not
sure I can su|jply tlie fticts, because we probably will have to telephone
Poston for the information.
Mr. ^luNDT. I am interested to know whether they got any return
from the railroad company.
Mr. Myee^ AVha) date "were you there, Mr. Mundt? Well, I wnll
find out. You want to know whether or not they did collect from
the railroad ?
Mr. Mundt. Yes.
9658 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, CosTELLO, I believe it might be possible to have one of your
staff check this list of names. There are about 600 names. We
would particularly like to know whether any of the persons listed
here have been released from evacuation centers and, wherever it is
possible, endeavor to give the address, so as to identify the indi-
vidual; otherv. i'-e maybe the name will be sufficient.
Mr. Myer. I will be very glad to check that. I am not sure I
can get this done by tomorrow morning, because it takes quite a while
to check it.
Mr. CosTELLO. Tomorrow morning or tomorrow afternoon.
Mr. Myer. Yes; as soon as I can get the list checked.
Mr. Eberhartee. Mr. Myer, you have made some criticisms here of
the publicity which attended the hearings and made some criticism
of the statements that were released. Of course, I do not have any
intention of trying to defend the newspapers or reporters for what-
ever they want to report concerning our hearings. It is up to them tO'
decide what they think to be of interest.
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. Ebeeharter. So I do not think this committee sliould b©
grouped together and blamed for whatever the newspapers have pub-
lished unless it was a specific statement given out. I want to say this,
when this committee arrived on the coast, before these hearings were
opened and this investigation restlly got under wny by the membei's of
the committee, it was decided to liold hearings in the nature of public
hearings so that the members of the press could be present.
Mr. Myer. Was it public for everyone or just for the press? Was
it open to the public ? v
Mr. Ebekharter. And we decided to hold public hearings, because
we felt it would be in the best interests, not only of Cougi-ess but of the
War Relocation Authority. We did not want to hold executive hear-
ings, or so-called star-chamber sessions, because there has been a great
deal of criticism of that method of procedure ; therefore, we proceeded
on that basis.
I also want to say that this committer has come to no final con-
clusion with respect to the matters under investigation, and it has been
so stated by members of the committee.
INlr. Myer. I appreciate that.
Mr. Eberharter. And with further respect to 3'our cidticism, in any
hearing or any court trial, you know yourself, from experience, that
the complainants are always heard first and then those accused are
given an opportunity to present their defense. I see no other way in
which to fairly conduct an investigation.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Congressman, may I make this comment ? I, in no
way, have criticized the members having the press available. 1 think
you will agree with that. It was perfectly all right with me having
the press available. I only made two comments that seem to be crit-
ical, and I want to be clear. One is that I did not know that other
people were allowed in, excepting the press and the witnesses and the
investigators and the committee. I did not know that it was an open
hearing. That had never been announced, so far as I know, except-
ing that I found out after several days that it was. I thought it was
a closed hearing except for the press and the members of the
committee.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9659
Mr. Ererhartor. Well, that is partially true.
Mr. Myer. Partially?
Mr. CosTEi.ix). We did not have the public there as an audience.
Mr. Myer. I wanted my representative there.
Mr. CosTELLO. There were one or two other persons there.
Mr. M^-ER. But I was not given that opportunity. That is one of
the criticisms that I have to make of your hearing in Los Angeles.
My major criticism is not the wny the hearings were conducted in
Los Angeles. My major criticism is the fact that representatives of
this committee, in the interim period, began to give out statements and
information to the press, presumably gleaned by investigators, that
were not true in some cases. They were only partially true in others,
and in other cases they were perfectly absurd.
In one case information was provided by someone and they quoted
Representative Starnes as saying we were providing 5 gallons of
whisky to each evacuee. That was so silly. Naturally, the people
would not believe it, but at the same time, there were about four
other statements made.
Xow, that information, T understand, came out of the Dies com-
mittee office here in Washington, not from the Members of Congress.
I happen to know Joe Starnes. I called him up the minute I read
the storey. I asked him to come up. He denied ever having made
any of the statements. He wrote a letter to the newspapers and
denied that he made the statement. I asked him to repeat it and
send me a copy of the letter.
1 don't know where they got the information. I am told they got
it from Mr. Stripling. That, I criticize. I don't think it is cricket.
I don't think it is fair to the American public. I don't think it is
good procedure, and I don't think you do either, gentlemen.
Mr. Eberharter. I just want you to have it clear that you are not
indiscriminately grouping together everybody that is responsible.
Mr. Myer. You are right now.
]Mr. Eberharter. So that the public does not have clearly in mind
whom vou are criticizing.
Mr. Myer. I agree. I get j^our point. My major criticism is of
the representatives of this committee who have released information
to the press, not during hearings but information which has been
untrue even before the hearings started, particularly the committee's
investigators who have been quoted in some cases. In other cases,
they simply quote a spokesman.
The only other criticism I have I believe was the criticism of the
fact that we were not entitled to sit in at the Los Angeles hearing
so that we would know what was going on at the time; so that we
would have had an even break with the press.
I recall one other story about that. Congressman Thomas made
some statement that I checked him on. I have written him about it.
It has been an open letter to the press, and that is one of the reasons
I referred to it here today.
So far as I know, at the moment, I do not recall other statements
by members of the committee, and certainly there are some members
of the committee that have never made any statement that I know of.
and I appreciate the fact that they are trying to hold hearings of thi.s
type, and I appreciate the fact that you are giving me what I con-
9660 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
sider a fair and open, square break to get the facts before the public
today. I appreciate it.
Mr. CosTFXLO. Had your telegram to me been worded differently,
I think it might have accomplished its purpose,
Mr. Myer. I am sorry,
Mr. CosTELLO. If 3^our theory was to have Mr. Cozzens sit down as
auditor, to listen to the hearing, and so forth, I am sure that a wire
would have come back to you inviting him to do so.
Mr. Myer. I am sorry. I was irked, that is all.
Mr. CosTELLO. The implication was that his being brought down
was simply for the purpose of checking any news releases or other
releases that might come out of the hearing, was it not ?
Mr. Myer. I had no such intent.
Mr. Costello. The committee would have liked to have you there
as the representative of W. R. A. and to hear what was going on.
Mr. Myer. Naturally, I am not interested in censoring the press,
and I want to make that perfectly clear for about the third time to-
day, and I am glad that the question came up so that we can clear
the air on that ])articular fact, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Costello. I think, in view of the lateness of the hour, we had
better adjourn until tomorrow morning at 10: 30.
Mr. Myer. Thank you, sir.
(Whereupon, at 5 : 45 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 : 30
a. m., Wednesday, July 7, 1913.)
INYESTmATION OF UN-AMERICAN PEOPAGANDA
ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES
WEDNESDAY, JULY 7, 1943
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Special Committee,
To IN^^STIGAT£ Un-x\merican Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 : 20 a. m. in room 1301, House Office
Building, the Honorable John M, Costello, chairman of the subcom-
mittee, presiding.
Present : Hon. John M. Costello, Hon. Noah M. Mason, Hon. Karl
E. Mundt, Hon. Herman P. Eberharter, Hon. Wirt Courtney, and
Hon. J. Parnell Thomas.
Also present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator, and J. B.
Matthews, director of research^ for the committee.
Mr. Costello. The committee will please come to order.
We still have Mr. Myer on the stand this morning.
Mr. Stripling, you may proceed.
STATEMENT GE DILLON S. MYER— Recalled
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Myer, you are familiar with an organization
known as the Japanese American Citizens League ?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir ; I am very familiar with it.
Mr. Stripling. On June 11 the committee obtained the records of
the Japanese American Citizens League from its headquarters in
Washington, D. C, by service of a subpena duces tecum.
In these records are numerous references to you in the form of
reports which were made by a man by the name of Mike Masaoka
to his national headquarters.
How many times have you met Mr. Masaoka personally, that you
know of?
Mr. Mter. Well, I would not attempt to keep track of the times.
I met Masaoka first, I think, in July of 1942, or thereabouts;
shortly after I became Director of the War Relocation Authority.
During the time that he spent in Washington intermittently during
the past year I suppose I saw him on an average of once a week.
Masaoka, as was true with Kanazawa, not only served the Japanese
American Citizens League as their representative here but they served
as reporters for their paper, The Pacific Citizen, at Salt Lake City,
and they came in rather regularly to see whether there was news of
the program in which they were very interested, that they might send
to their paper at Salt Lake.
9661
62626 — 43 — vol. 15 53
9662 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stripling. What is your understanding as to the size of the
Japanese American Citizens League ?
Mr. Myer. I have no information as to the membership in the
citizens league, other than what I have seen in Masaoka's reports, but
his information is much better than mine on that.
I have made no investigation as to the actual membership of the
league. I had no reason for doing so.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever represent to you the size of the organi-
zation ?
Mr. Myer. I don't remember that he ever made a statement to me
as to the size of the organization.
Mr. Matthews. To what do you refer when you say "in Masaoka's
reports" ?
Mr. Myer. The reports that he is referring to here.
Mr, Matthews. Have you seen the reports ?
Mr. Myer. I hav8 seen copies of some of these reports.
Mr. Stripling. You spoke of Joe Kanazawa. You have reference
to Mr. Kanazawa who was the eastern representative of the Japanese
American Citizens League?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Matthews. Did Masaoka turn these reports over to you him-
self?
Mr. Myer. No, he did not.
Mr. Matthews. How did you obtain these reports?
Mr. Myer. Is it essential that I answer that question?
Mr. Stripling. I think it is very pertinent, Mr. Chairman, that the
witness advise the committee how he obtained copies of these reports.
Mr. Myer. I requested copies of these reports from the office of the
Japanese American Citizens League at Salt Lake City so that I
might know what was in the files, and tliey supplied them to me in
view of the fact that there were statements being made in the press
as to what was reported.
And I have read the reports rather completely. I am not sure that
I read all of them because I am not sure that I have everything that
you folks have in the files here.
Mr. Stripling. In view of that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
read a paragraph of one of the reports dated September 19, 1942^
from Mr. Masaoka to the national headquarters under the heading
"Strictly confidential." [Reading] :
Myei- put this up to me directly and pointedly. He said that he and his
staff deals with us on the same basis of confidence and mutual trust as they do
among themselves. Up to now, I have been permitted to sit down and discuss
every ma.ior policy before it was finally passed on. Up to now, no confidence
has b:'en betrayed. Up to now, we have worked and cooperated with them to a
fine decree. The War Relocation Authority desires to continue that fine re-
lationship and will continue to do so as long as confidential matters are kept
in confidence and as we sincerely try to cooperate with them on the improvement
of conditions. He is afraid that certain guys in Congress would jump down
tl^eir collective throats if they could only imagine a part of the part which we
play in forming War Relocation Authority policy; too, he desires that nothing
is made public except thr.ough his office and at the proper time. He is a great
believer in proper timing as the keystone to successful announcements and
their general acceptance. He has given us the directives and instructions of his
doT)f?r*^ihent. They are to be held in the strictest confidence and are not to be
announced to anyone. They are merely to serve as a hint to us of their policy —
nothing more. If, in order to answer a letter, it is necessary to qiiote all or part
of an administrative instructive, please contact me before so doing.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9663
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Stkipling. Just a moniont. I have not finished.
Mr. Myeu. I be<>: your pardon.
Mr. Stripling. Further in this paragraph the following is quoted :
Be careful, and that refers especially to Kido in Poston — for if Wade decided
to jjer sore if he discovered that you had copies, God bless America. As a mem-
ber of the legal staff, I supposed you see all of them, though, don't you sabV
The reference to Wade there is Mr. Wade Head, who is the direc-
tor of Poston Camp?
Mr. MvER. That is correct, I presume.
Mr. Stripling. First. Mr. Myer, I would like to ask Avhether or not
you have furnished to Mr. Masaoka or to Mr. Kanazawa the direc-
tives of the War Relocation Authority ?
Mr. Myer. We have sup])lied to the Japanese American Citi-
zens League, I think, all of the administrative instructions which have
been ndmeographed and available to anyone that wished them. They
have not been confidential. They are public property, and they have
been available to anyone that has asked for them, and I don't think
we have ever turned anyone down who has requested them.
Mr. Stripling. I show you in that connection, Mr. Myer, a folder
which -was obtained from their files, which are filled with W. R. A.
directives.
This one is numbered 33, War Relocation Authority, Information
Digest, and sets forth "For the use of the W. R. A. staff only; not
for publication." That is dated January 23, 1943.
There are several other reports here wliich have the same notation,
that they are not intended for public use.
This one says, "For the use of W. R. A. staff only; not for publi-
cation.-' In the corner there is a pencil notation, "Joe K.", which I
prosinne is Joe Kanazawa.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, the statement referred to here is not a
W. R. A. directive. It is "Information Digest No. 31, of January 9.
191:3,'* which is our mimeograph house organ, if vou want to call it
that.
Mr. MuNDT. How is that ?
Mr. Myer. Our mimeographed house organ. It is simply a mimeo-
graphed sheet supplying information to members of our staff through-
out the field: a boiled-down digest of things going on within the
organization that staff members need to know.
It is not confidential in any respect, but it w\as not put out as a
press release and was simply put out as information to the staff gen-
erally regarding the general piogress of the program; nothing confi-
dential about that.
It is not nuirked "confidential."
Mr. T;i():\iAs. But it was put out by your autliority ?
Mr. Myer. Put out by my authority to members of our staff, and
evidently copies were secured, and I see no objection to W. R. A.
having copies made
Mr. Thomas (interposing). Do you see these before they are sent
out (
Mr. Myer. I do.
Mr. Thomas. So every one has your approval ?
9664 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, MTEtj. Well, every one up to recently has had my approval. I
am not sure that I approved every one, because there have been
times when I was out of town, and whoever was acting director
approved it.
Mr. Thomas. Is not that statement of yours just a play on words,
though ?
When you come right down to it, after all, whether you call it a
house organ or whatever you may wish to call it, it was put out by
the War Relocation Authorty.
Mr. Myer. These are news items ; not directives.
That is the first point I would like to make clear. That is referred
to here
Mr. Stripling (interposing). And here is another folder which was
obtained.
Mr. Myer. I would like to repeat, Mr. Chairman, that there is
nothing confidential about these.
If you would like copies, we will supply them to you.
Mr. MuNDT. They are news items ?
Mr. Myer. They are news items to our own staff on information
that they would be interested in, but which the newspapers generally
would not be interested in.
Mr. Stripling. Will you explain this, Mr. Myer, and tell the com-
mittee whether or not that is a complete set of administration instruc-
tions— administrative instructions and directives?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, I can tell by taking one look at it that
that is not a complete set of administrative instructions, because this
[indicating] is a complete set of administrative instructions, and this
[indicating] is only a portion of the administrative instructions.
This instruction is dated February 17, 1943, Administrative Instruc-
tion No. 8, Revised Supplement 1, and has to do with the Japanese
language.
Mr. Stripling. "Wliat has this one reference to ?
Mr. Myer. This is Administration Instruction 15, Supplement 1,
No. 5, relating to the handling and safeguarding of restricted and
confidential and secret documents. There is nothing secret about that.
It is simply a statement as to how to handle intelligence matters and
other secret documents by the staff, and simply is instruction on that
basis.
There is nothing confidential about this instruction.
Mr. Stripling. Why, then, would it be necessary to give copies
of such interoffice comnninications to officials of a purely independent
organization not connected with the Government.
Mr. Myer. It was not necessary; they requested it. It was public
property and we supplied them.
Mr. Thomas. Wlio else requested them besides this Japanese or-
ganization ?
Mr. Myer. I don't have a list of those who requested them, but I
will say we have had requests and supplied them.
Among others, we have supplied them to the Military Affairs Com-
mittee of the United States Senate in relation to the hearings devel-
oped there during January up to the present time. I think probably
full sets.
Mr. Stripling. Will you submit to this committee a list of the indi-
viduals or organizations that have asked for such information?
TN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9665
Mr. Mter. I will be glad to, if ^ye can find it. I am not sure that
we have a list of individuals. I want to repeat, gentlemen, that w^e
have supplied copies of these instructicms to anyone who has requested
them because we consider them public documents. They are pretty
dull reading for most people, so there are not many that have re-
quested them, I don't believe.
JSlr. oMuNDT. Were they supplied to the newspapers?
Mr. Myer. Not unless they requested them.
And I want to repeat, they are not the type of thing that would
make ^ood press releases.
. Mr, MuNDT. I was wondering whether there was any special rea-
son why you should supply them to the Pacific Citizen and not the
other papers?
Mr. Myer. Because they requested them; that is the reason.
Mr. Thomas. Who else requested them, outside of those two, now ?
Mr. Myer. I can't offhand tell you who else requested them, Mr.
Thomas.
Mr. Thomas. You cannot name one of them ?
Mr. Myer, The authorization
' Mr. Thomas (interposing). Wait a minute; I have asked you a
question.
Mr. IMyer, My executive officer tells me that the question regarding
whether it was a public document first came up last summer when
the Catholic superintendent of education of Arkansas asked for them.
I ruled at that time that any one that requested them might have
them.
They were public documents, so that there was no reason why any
request made should ever be submitted to me again,
Thej' were supplied, as a matter of routine, to anyone who re-
quested them,
]Mr. Thomas, Outside of those, can you name any others?
Mr. Myer, Not offhand ; no.
Mr. Matthews. Will you please identify the executive officer?
Mr. Myer. Mr, Leland Bail^ows, who just stepped up here and gave
me the information,
JSIr, Eberharter. You judge that the material which was obtained
by the committee on subpena, which contains copies of directives and
instructions, is about one-third or one-fourth the number of instruc-
tions and directives that were actually issued by the W. R. A.?
Mr, Myer. I am saying, if this book is supposed to be the complete
file of directives, it is not the complete file, because what I have just
showed 3'ou here would be the complete file.
Mr. Eberharter. I want the record to show about what percentage
of the directives the J. A. C. L, has,
Mr, INIyer. Well, we can check that for you ; if this is all that they
liave had, we can check it against our files and give it to you, exactly,
but it would take some time to do that because there are a long list
of s(j-called directives or administrative instructions there.
]Mr, Eberharter, Therefore, Mr. M3^er, there appears to be in the
lecord about one-fourth of the size of the official binder that you
have. Would you say that was a fair statement?
Mr, Myer. I would guess that that was about correct.
And I might say that we supplied any administrative instructions
which they requested.
9866 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The chances are they did not request all of them.
Mr. MuNDT. I do not .see how an outside or^janization would know
liow to request administrative orders unless you had advised them
each time you made an order.
How would anybody know what to request?
Mr. Myer. The request was made to supply them with administra-
tive instructions as they came along, and I assume that they got all
that they requested. T authorized them to have copies at any time
that they came out in final form.
Now, I would like to go back to another statement that was made,'
Masaoka talked about confidential information. These were times
when Masaoka and Kanazawa came in that directives, so-called d-
ministrative instructions were in process of preparation.
It would take several days for them to get to the field.
I did provide information that they Avere under way and that they
were signed and out. But we did not want them suj>plied to the
evacuees through the Pacific Citizen before they were supplied to our
regtilar forces. Their line of communication was sometimes faster
than ours, because we sent them out usually through the mail, or air
mail, and they could send them by wire.
I might add, Mr. Chairman, that the administration instruction
referred to yesterday which was submitted to the Federal Register on
September 29 and became effective as of October 1, I understand was
wired completely — in its complete form, to the Pacific Citizen, be-
cause it was published in the Federal Registei-.
That went to the projects before our copies got out, also, and I
happened to be in the field at the time, and I had a great many
project directors complaining about the fact that they get informa-
tion through the Pacific Citizen faster than they get it from us.
In that case, they did, becatise it was wired to the paper and put
in the press.
Mr. MuNDT. Then. Mr. Myer, wdien these instructions, administra-
tion instructions and directives, were marked "Confidential" did that
mean
Mr. Myer (interposing). They were not marked "Confidential."
They are not marked "Confidential." If you take a look at them 3'ou
will find they are not.
Mr. Thomas. They were not for publication?
Mr. Myer. But they Avere not marked "Confidential." Thev were
simply marked that way in order to differentiate them from the gen-
eral press release.
Mr. Mtjndt. Then do you menu by "Not for publication" that they
were not for publication until the time that thev had reached-
Mr. Mi-ER (interposing). No. What you ure talking nbout here is
not a direr-tive. It is simply a news organ Avithin the W. R. A. that
was gotten out for a time in order to keep our oaa'u staff up to date
Avith items.
NoAv, one of the reasons they were marked "For W. R. A. staff
only" was that Ave did not Avant them published in the public ncAvs-
papers for the information of e\'acuees because there Ave re manj'
things in there that might lead to rumors and speculation that was
not desirable.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9667
I iniolit say, ^h: Chairman, we have had two publics to deal with,
and it has made a rather complex public-relation i)i"<)])]em.
We liave liad the public who were, on the outside of relocation cen-
ters, scattered throughout the United States generally, in the normal
])iil)lic.
"\Vc liave had about 100.000 people who read and write, most of them,
jiving within relocation centers, wlio are the evacuee public. Any-
thing that we set out to be carefully thought through, from the stand-
point of the rumors that would start, was not released to the evacuee
j)ress. and consequently we have been very cautious and very careful
as to what we allow to be published in the press wathin the centers,
and this was marked so that it Avould not be published without having
a chance to check it.
Mr. ]\Iaithews. Mr. Myer. will you please clear up this point?
A moment ago you said that the information digest was marked
"Not for publication'' because the newspapers would not be interested
in publishing it.
5lr. Myek. 1 think, generally, they would not be interested in most
of it.
Mr. Maitheavs. And now you say it was marked "Not for pub-
lication'' because you did not want it published.
Mr. ]Mter. I said one reason it was marked "Not for publication"
I didn't think it was the kind of material — and if I said it wrong, I
will say it again — the kind of material that the newspapers would be
interested in.
I might say that our office — and I will say this to the press about
the past and it is still true — is open at all times to the press.
We would be delighted if you want to read all these administrative
instructions, to give you the opportunity.
Mr. Chairman, Ave have always had the policy of supplying in-
formation to the press at any time they requested it.
Mr. Matthews. When did you get these reports of Masaoka from
the Salt Lake City headquarters of the Japanese American Citizens
League ?
Mr. ^Iyer. I don't remember exactly; I believe it was a week ago
Monday. It happened that we were having a meeting of our reloca-
tion officers here and I got in touch with our man who was located at
Salt Lake and asked him if he would not bring them in with him,
which he did.
Mr. ^L^tthews. And did you get in touch with Masaoka ?
]\Ir. Myer. I did not. I have not been in touch with Masaoka at
any time since these hearings started, that 1 Can remember.
^Ir. Matthews. Did you get in touch with Kanazawa ?
^Ir. ]Myer. I did not.
Mr. ^Latthews. The contract was solely through the W. R. A. rep-
resentative in Salt Lake City?
Mr. Myer. That is right.
Mr. Matthews. AA'ho. in turn, apj)roached the office?
Mr. ^Iyer. Later I have had two or three chats with Larry Tajiri,
who is the editor of the Pacific Citizen and closely connected with
the Japanese American Citizens League.
Mr. Mattheavs. Have those conversations Avith Larry Tajiri been
here in Washington during the past week?
9668 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myer. They have, just as they have been with certain other
newspaper people,
Mr. Stripling. Did I understand you to say, Mr. Myer, that you
have not contacted Joe Kanazawa in the last 2 weeks ?
Mr. Myer. No ; I didn't say that.
Mr. Stripling. Did he contact you ?
Mr. Myer. Joe Kanazawa dropped into my office on two occasions.
He said, "Hello," and he asked how things were going, but I said I
couldn't discuss anything with him, knowing he had been a witness,
and he bid me good-bye and he left.
That was after he had had his hearing here.
Mr. Matthews. Did he suggest that you get copies of these from
the Salt Lake City office ?
Mr. Myer. He did not.
Mr. Matthews. Do you know how many reports were supplied you
from the Salt Lake City office of the Japanese American Citizens
League?
Mr. Myer. I do not.
Mr. Matthews. Was there more than one?
Mr. Myer. Oh, yes. I think probably most of the reports going
from here were supplied. There was quite a group of them, ranging
all the way from a year ago last June up until recently.
Mr. Matthews. From your reading of these reports, did you form
any new opinion or did you review your former opinion of Masaoka ?
Mr. Myer. Well, I might say from the reading of the reports, I
felt there were a good many places where Mike was rather expansive
in his reports.
He allowed his imagination to run wild, occasionally, on how much
influence he had on W. R. A. policy.
There were times when he was reasonably factual.
I might say, generally speaking, that I suppose that that would
be true of most any man if he were promoting certain policies, and a
policy was finally adopted, he is absolutely sure that he is responsible
for the adoption of the policy.
I assume also, after having heard of some of the policies, he thought
it was a good idea, or maybe thought that he was the one that
proposed it.
Now, I would say that, generally speaking, there were many state-
ments in the reports that were exaggerations ; statements that I don't
think were malicious statements, but were simply imaginative state-
ments that anybody could make.
Mr. Mati'hews. Did ;f ou discuss W. R. A. policy with him ?
Mr. Myer. Many times.
Mr, Matthews. Approximately once a week during the past year?
Mr. Myer. No, I discussed it with him approximately once a week
during the periods when he was in Washington or in the East and was
available and dropped into my office.
As a matter of fact, there were long 'periods of time that Masaoka
was not in Washington. He was not in W^ashington, for example,
from the period of about mid-November, I believe, until up into
mid-April.
Mr. Matthews. How did you happen to know that ?
How did you happen to know where he was ?
UX-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9669
Mr. ]\Iyer. Because I met with the J. A. C. L. in Salt Lake City
about mid-November, or shortly after mid-November. I think that
Masaoka didn't come back to Washington untir after he volunteered
for the Army; within the last 6 weeks or 2 months I don't remember
of seeing him here.
Mr. MuNDT. Was that at the time that Mr. Masaoka said you gave
an oif-the-record speech in Salt Lake City ?
Mr. Myer. I presume it was. I did give a speech to the group in
Salt Lake City and I also gave an on-the-record speech to the group
in Salt Lake City at which the press was there, and I had also with
the press here, on our leave policy, on our leave program.
Mr. Muxdt. Any particular reason why you should have given an
off-the-record speech ?
^Ir. Mter. Excepting the fact that they were having an executive
session there about their problems and wanted to discuss policy with
me ; that is the reason.
And I authorized that part, or discussed it with him, as I would
with anvone interested in the policy, and had a right to discuss policy.
Mr. Matthews. I do not think I got an answer to the question as
to how you knew that Mike Masaoka was not in Washington from
sometime in November until this spring.
How did you happen to know that he was not here ?
You said you were in Salt Lake City in November, but that would
not answer the question.
Mr. Mter. I said I know that he did not come back here until
after he was inducted into the Army in April.
Mr. ISIatthews. How do you know he did not come back ?
Mr. Myer. Because Kanazawa was representing the League here
during that whole period.
Mr. Matthews. And he told you Masaoka was not here ?
Mr. IMyer. That is correct ; yes, sir.
Mr. Matthews. Well, then, you had weekly conferences?
Mr. Myer. Not necessarily.
Mr. Matthews. Well, you said approximately once a week.
Mr. Myer. Approximately; yes.
Mr. Matthews. With either Masaoka or Kanazawa during the past
year ; is that correct ?
Mr. ]\Iyer. That is correct; when I was in Washington. There
were times when I was in the field as long as a month at a time
and did not see either one of them, of course ; but the reason I say
"once a week" is that they usually came in in time to pick up any news
that might be of interest to the Pacific Citizen before the Citizen
went to press, so that they could wire the Citizen in time to get the
news in the press, if we had any news to give.
They are one group that had a definite interest in the news of
W.R.A.
Mr. MuNDT. Were those conferences always at the instigation of
either Mr. Kanazawa or Mr. Masaoka, or would you call them up some-
times ?
Mr. Myer. "No ; they were alwa3'^s at their request.
Mr. MuNDT. Always at their request ?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
9670 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I would like to go into detail on
this particular paragraph which I just read :
He said that he and his staff deals with us on the same basis of confidence and
mutual trust as they do among themselves.
Is that statement correct ?
Mr. Myer. I don't think that statement is correct.
Mr. Stripling [reading] :
Up to now I have been permitted to sit down and discuss every major policy
before it was finally passed on.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Myer. That is not correct.
Mr, Stripling [reading] :
Up to now no confidence has been betrayed.
Mr. Myer. So far as I know, there was no confidence betrayed
regarding those items which I mentioned, which were discussed with
them previous to the time they were received in the field, which was our
major concern in making this statement.
I want to repeat that the only reason that that statement was made —
and I remember distinctly making it — was that we did not want reports
going to our staff and to evacuees by the J. A. C. L. on policies that
were in the making and which had been approved before the mail
and the telegrams could carry them to the field, and we would have it
go directly.
Mr. Stripling. I will read further :
Up to now we have worked and cooperated with them to a fine degree.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Myer. We have had a very good relationship with the Japanese
American Citizens League generally ; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling (reading) :
He is afraid that certain guys in Congress would jump down their collective
throats if they could only imagine a part of the part which we play in forming
War Relocation Authority policy.
Mr. Myer. That is pure imagination on Masaoka's part, I would
say. I made no such statement.
Mr. Stripling (reading) :
He has given us the directives and instructions of his department.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Myer. That is correct. I have already stated that I have pro-
vided to anyone who requested them, including the Japanese American
Citizens League, administrative instructions which have been inimeo-
graphed and sent out all over the country as fast as they were available,
and if they wished them.
Mr. Stripling. Why would he make this statement ? [Reading :]
Be careful, and that refers especially to Kido in Poston — for if Wade decided
to get sore if he discovered that you had copies, God bless America.
As a matter of fact, Mr. Myer, all of these instructions and directions
were interoffice communications, intended only for the officials of
W. R. A. ; is that not correct?
Mr. Myer. No ; that is not correct.
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9671
To go back to your fi-rst (luestioii regardin*^ Kido. the only interpre-
tation I could make of that, and I would not try to interpret Masa-
oka's statement except in<r \on request me to <ruess at it, would be
the same tliin<^ that I have already mentioned; that Masaoka was
waruintr Kido. who was president of the league, who was then located
in Poston, not to be releasing information to the evacuees that should
come from the front office, from the director's office.
Tliat is the only explanation I could make of that.
Mr. MuNDT. When it states "for the use of the W. K. A. staff only,"
that is sort of a Masaoka type of exaggeration, then ?
Mr. Mter. The report you are reading there is not a directive. It
is a mimeographed news, weekly news digest, that was submitted to
the directors in the field.
Mr. MuNDT. That is correct; call it an information digest,
Mr. Myer. That is right : it is not a directive.
Mr. JVIuNDT. It also says, "For the use of the W. R. A. staff only."
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. That is an exaggeration, is it ?
Mr. Myer. Well, it was designed for the use of the W. R. A. only.
There was nothing particularly secret about it excepting as I have
already stated, it was not put out as a news release and it was not put
out for the use of the evacuees.
Mr. Matthews. Did other private organizations or individuals ob-
tain copies of that particular document?
Mr. Myer. I would have to check that. I think there were one or
two other people who did request copies; Mr. Rundquist, for ex-
ample
Mr. Matthews. Who is he ?
Mr. Myer (continuing). Who was then serving as representative
of the Federal Council of Churches and done work on the problem
of rehjcation of evacuees with that organization, and has received
copies, my reports officer tells me.
Mr. Matthews. If I ma}- conclude this, you stated that you did
have this particular type of confidential relationship with Masaoka,
namely, that you let him have some of these instructions or directives
on the condition that he would not release them in the Pacific Citizen
before your own officers had a chance to release them.
Mr. ^Iyer. That happened in some cases because they were mimeo-
graplied here and he could get them more quickly than you coidd mail
them to the field.
Mr. Matthews. But were there other private individuals or organi-
zations that obtained these administrative instructions and directives
in advance?
Mr. Myer. I am sorry : I didn't get your question.
Will you repeat it. please, ^Ir. Matthews?
Mr. Matthews. Mr. Masaoka got the instructions and directives,
in some cases, you say, before your staff was able to get them by mail
m the relocation centers.
Were there other private individuals or organizations who were
in possession of them on the same terms?
5lr. Myek. I am not sure that there were: there are other organi-
zations or individuals who could have been, though, had they re-
quested them on the same terms.
9672 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Matthews. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. Further in this memorandum, Mr. Myer, it states
[reading] :
This last week has been an extremely encouraging one. It seems that Myer
has returned from his west coast trip imbued with a new spirit and fight on the
whole matter. He sees the problem now in three stages and not in two ;
Movement to assembly centers; movement to relocation centers; movement
out of relocation centers to private employment. He believes that if the oppor-
tunity is granted to everyone, Nisei, Kibei, and Issei alike to leave if they
want to, it will not only relieve the tensions developed in camp but make it
-that much easier to develop their own program. Frankly, he is ready to fight
the Army itself on this matter of final authority.
Mr. Myer. I would say that that was another bit of expansiveness
and pure imagination — the last statement about fighting the Army.
I want to say, gentlemen, that our relationship with the Army has
been excellent throughout. I won't say that we always agreed, we
haven't, but we have always kept our disagreements on a high plane.
There has been no fighting. We have had an excellent relationship
with the War Department here and a very good relationship with
the Western Defense Command throughout this period.
Now, as regards the rest of the statement, I did come back — what
is tlie date of this, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. September 19.
Mr. Myer. I don't remember the date of the trip.
I would like to say, though, that we were not in a position to for-
mulate our first major policies until about the middle of August, in
relation to the relocation centers.
We had a meeting of our key staff members, including project
directors, who were then project directors, and had experience with
the evacuees in our west coast offices, and these people on the Wash-
ington staff, at which time we formulated a number of the earlier
policies which are in this big book.
Those were issued during the latter part of August and up until
through September. It was quite a relief to have many of these
policies formulated.
For the first time, about that period, we were giving thought to
the next step in the relocation program.
It is possible that I made such a statement as I am quoted in mak-
ing here, as far as that portion which relates to the three major steps,
because as I indicated to the committee yesterday, we started our
relocation program with the group leave or seasonal leave in May.
It was speeded up during the summer, as far as seasonal leave was
concerned.
We established our first indefinite leave policy in July.
We were at that time almost ready to issue the revised leave policies,
which were published in the Federal Register as of September 29, but
effective October 1, which was discussed in some detail yesterday; so
the chances are we did have some discussion about that general policy
at that time.
Mr. Matthews. Do the policies, as outlined in Masaoka's report in-
volving these three steps, appear essentially in that Federal Register?
Mr. Myer. Will you read that question, please, again ?
Mr. Matthews. Of September 29 ?
Mr. Myer. Pardon me?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9673
Mr. ISIai-thews. I say, do the policies outlined in Masaoka's report
appear in that Federal Register?
Mr. Myer. The sequence is about right.
The movement from the assembly centers to the relocation centers
occupied the period from about the last of May until November 2.
»The peak of the movement was during midsummer, August and
September in particular. We had a very heavy movement, and that
period, of course, ^Yas very much taken up, to begin with, with recruit-
ment of the staff, training of the staff, and we were putting our reloca-
tion centers in order to receive people, to get them established, and
getting our policies set up.
The next step, of course, following the assembly centers was the re-
location centers, and the next step was attention to the relocation pro-
gram outside of the centers.
Now, as to the reference with relation to Issei, Kibei, and Nisei, I
would like to make the statement that that refers to the fact that in
our July 20 directive, so-called directive — we never called them that —
administrative instruction, the indefinite leave was limited to citizens
of the United States who had not returned to Japan.
The leave instructions which were issued in the Federal Register
the 29th of September, effective October 1, did provide opportunity
for anyone to make application for leave, regardless of status.
That did not mean that every one was able to secure leave, but did, I
believe, give the opportunity for application for leave.
Mr. iiluNDT. I would like to ask a question at this point.
Mr. Myer. All right.
Mr. MuNDT. Because it was about this time when you were return-
ing from the AVest Coast trip.
I have here a copy of the Poston Chronicle, Sunday newspaper, pub-
lished in the Poston project, dated September 6, 19i3.
Mr. Myer. Did you say September or June ?
Mr. MuNDT. June 6, 1943. I beg your pardon. I will read the
heading :
Research Bureau Survey of English-speaking residents reveals 63 percent to
leave center ; 66 percent to leave within 6 months.
It is a long news story, but in part it says this :
The desire to return evacuees to American life, however, is not a new policy
of War Relocation Authority.
This is one of the papers we picked up, Mr. Myer, when we were
at the Poston center last month.
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT (reading).
As early as September 24, 1942, when only half the relocation centers had
been filled. Director Myer stated in a letter to the Attorney General —
I will ask you first, did you write to the Attorney General on Sept-
ember 24, 1942?
Mr. Myer. September 20th, yes ; and the reply came back September
25. That was the letter I referred to and which I am to put in the
record today.
Mr. MuNDT. I will read a part of the letter to you.
From the beginning of the evacuation program, we have regarded the reloca-
tion centers as places of temporary residence where the evacuees would stay
9674 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
until arrangements could be made for their permanent relocation* in accordance
M'ith a carefully prepared plan designed to accomplish two primary results:
(1) The relocation of persons of Japanese ancestry throughout the United
States under circumstances that will enable them to become integral parts of
the communities into which they go, with the least possible disturbance; and
(2) the delayed relocation — with residence continuing in the i-elocation centers
in the meantime — of those evacuees whose individual records indicate that our
war program would be endangered unnecessarily if they were to be relocated
at the present time.
Now, I wonder just what you meant by that; that you were going
to release at a later date those evacuees whose requests indicated that
the National Defense was going to be endangered unnecessarily.
Mr, Myer. I meant just this? That we have taken great care
throughout this whole period not to release people who we felt would
endanger either the national defense or the war effort.
The military effort and the military situation of course changes
from time to time.
We have consulted continually with the War Department and with
the Justice Department regarding military security and the internal
security of the country, because those are the two agencies responsible
for those two things; one, the military security, and the other, the
internal security.
We have asked their advice at every major step regarding our pro-
gram. Since no one could tell when the war would end and since no
one can tell whether the war will end first in the Pacific theater or
in the Atlantic theater, I simply made a general statement until such
time that it would seem sound to release these evacuees.
Mr. MuNDT. This is very definitely of course contemplating the
release from these centers of Japanese whose individual records, to
use your own language, indicated that our war program would be
endangered unnecessarily.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Mundt, I would like to make a more detailed state-
ment on that and tell you why .
I have been sort of holding back all the statements from the Solici-
tor's office regarding the legality of holding citizens in internment
in the Unitecl States, that I would like to read into the record, be-
cause it has a very definite bearing on our whole leave policy.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Myer should be called
upon to answer the question.
Mr. Myer. This is an answer to the question.
Mr. Thomas. And before he makes any other comment.
Mr. Myer. This is an answer to the question..
Mr. Thomas. Hoav long is it i
Mr. Myer. About three pages, double spaced.
Mr. Thomas. I think he should answer questions without making
statements.
Mr. Myer. I will be be glad to answer it if I am allowed to read
this statement so that the press may hear it before this hearing is
over.
Mr. Thomas. Now, Congressman Mundt asked a question, and I
suggest that you answer it.
Mr. Myer. This is an answer to Mr. Mundt's question.
l\Ir. CosTELLO. It is definitely an answer to this statement
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9675
Ml'. CosTELLo. That you intended to release individuals whose rec-
ords indicated that they wouhl endanger the war?
]Mr. Myer. This is an ansAver to the reasons why I worked that in the
way I did.
]\Ir. CosTELLO. You may proceed.
Mr. Thomas. Any other material in that statement of yours other
than ananswer to tliis (question?
Mr. JNIyer. You may judge that after I read it.
Mr. Thomas. I want an answer to that right now.
]\Ir. ^Iyek. I am not sure; 1 would have to read it through first.
Mr. Thomas. Then you do not know what is in the statement?
Mr. Myer. I do know what is in the statement.
Mr. Thomas. Well, then, if you do. you can answer the question.
]Mr. Myer. I don't know whether your judgment and mine would
be tiie same as to whether it is germane, but let us read the statement
and save time.
Mr. CosTELLO. Proceed with the statement.
Mr. ]SIyer. Thank you, Mr. Cliairman.
This statement is entitled "Constitutional Principles Involved in
the Relocation Program."
It was written by our legal staff. [Reading:]
The evacuation and relocation program raise important questions of constitu-
tionality. This is so because two-thirds of the persons of Japanese ancestry
evacuated from west coast military areas are citizens of the United States, and
the great majority of the remainder are law-abiding aliens.
It is the position of the War Relocation Authority that its leave regulations are
essential to the legal validity of the evacuation and relocation program.
JNIr. Thomas. Are you reading this statement to the press or to the
conmiittee?
Mr. Myer. I am addressing it to whoever may wish to listen; both
the press and the committee.
Mr. Thomas. You are looking at the press, and I was wondering
whether you were making the statement for the press or for the
committee.
Mr. Myer. I am trving to read so that the folks back here can hear
and you can hear. If you prefer, I will turn this way.
Mr. Thomas. I think you should face the chairman.
Mr. Myer. Pardon me, Mr. Chairman. May I repeat that last
sentence ? So that it will not be missed ?
It is the position of the War Relocation Authority that its leave regulations
are essential to the legiil validity of the evacuation and relocation program.
These kvive rcgulaMims establi.sh a procedure under whicli the loyal citizens and
law-abiding aliens njay leave a relocation center to become reestablished in
normal life.
We believe, in the first jilace, that the ev;'cuation was within the consti-
tutioiial power of the National government. The concentration of the Japanese-
Americans along the west coast, the danger of invasion of that coast by Japan,
the po.><sil)ility that an unknown rnd unrecognizable minority of them m ght
have greater allegiance to Japan than to the United States, the fact that the
Japane^e-Amer cans were not wholly assimilated in the general life of com-
munities on the west coast, and the danger of civil disturbance due to fear
and misunderstanding — all these facts, and related facts — ci-ealed a situation
which the National Govci'nnient could, we believe, deal with by extraordinary
measures in the interest of military security.
The need for speed created the unfortunate necessity for evacuating the
whole group instead of attempting to determine who were dangerous among
them, so that only those might be evacuated.
9676 UN-AMERICAN PROPAG-\NDA ACTIVITIES
That same need made it impossible to hold adequate investigations or to
grant hearings to the evacuees before evacuation.
When the evacuation was originally determined upon, it was contemplated
that the evacuees would be free immediately to go anywhere they wanted within
the United States, so long as they remained outside of the evacuated area.
Approximately S*,000 evacuees left the evacuated area voluntarily at that time,
and 5,000 of these have never lived in relocation centers. The decision to provide
relocation centers for the evacuees was not made until some 6 weeks after evacu-
ation was decided upon, and was made largely because of a recognition of the
danger that the hasty and unplanned resettlement of 110,000 people might
create civil disorder.
I read 110,000; it is 112,000 here. That ^yas the figure we had
at that time.
Detention within a relocation center is not, therefore, a necessary part of
the evacuation process. It is not intended to be more than a temporary stage
in the process of relocating the eligible evacuees into new homes and jobs.
■Mr. MuNDT. Now, right at that point, does that not in itself dis-.
qualify a Japanese from being released, whereas 3^our statement here
says [reading] :
delayed relocation —
not detention, but —
delayed relocation, with residence continuing in the relocation centers in the
meantime — of those evacuees whose individual records indicate that our war
program would be endangered unnecessarily if they were to be relocated at the
present time.
Are those the evacuees whose individual records indicate our war
program would be delayed unnecessarily if they were to be relocated ?
Mr. Myer. This statement, Mr. Chairman, I would like to read
again, and it is simply a statement of the W. R. A. policy ; that we
must be satisfied from its investigation that there is no reason to
believe that issuance of leave to the particular evacuee will interfere
with the war program or endanger the public peace and security.
Now, that takes time. We have been in the process.
As I mentioned yesterday, we have been spending weeks and
months getting these records together, and getting a background of
information.
Last September we did not have all of those facts together. We
did not have all of the evacuees in relocation centers as yet where
we could get the facts. It was impossible to get all of them during
the assembly center period.
' So we went carefully, as indicated by our July 20 leave
Mr. Mundt (interposing). Perhaps the rest of the statement will
cover that.
Mr. ISIyer. To continue [reading] :
The individual must have a job or means of support.
The community to which the individual wishes to go must be one in which
evacuees can relocate without public disturbance.
The evacuee must agree to keep War Relocation Authority notified of any
change of address.
Mr. Mundt. Are those the only four?
Mr. Myer. Those are the general conditions of leave.
Mr. Mundt. You set up the machinery in those four conditions of
determining — and it will take time, — grant — over a long period of
time whether there is anything in the record of an American of
UN-AMEKICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9677
Japanese ancestry which would indicate that he is dangerous to the
war program.
Mr. Myer. That is our program ; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. After this machinery is set up, this letter indicates
that you contemplate releasing him, whether he is qualified under
your machinery or not, because it says this, and this is your own
language, because it says :
The delayed relocation —
not "the detention" —
the delayed relocation with residence continuing in i-elocation centers in the
meantime — of those evacuees whose individual records idicate that our war
program would be endangered unnecessarily if they were to be relocated at the
present time —
indicating very clearly, it would seem to me, that you intended to
release everybody.
Mr. Myee. That may be after the war, Mr. Mundt, if necessary.
I want to repeat that your — we are changing the policy at every
major step with the Justice Department and with the War Depart-
ment regarding the military security and the internal security of
the country.
We are asking them to advise us at different stages as to what is
safe now as compared to what was safe a year ago.
I think you will agree with our fleet back in operation, a lot of
which was knocked out at Pearl Harbor, that we are in a slightly
different position today. We are getting on the offensive now.
But it is up to the War Department and the Justice Department,
OS I see it, to advise us whether or not the internal security or the
military' security changes, so I have left that open, to advise with them
from time to time.
Mr. Mundt. Then the War Department and the Justice Depart-
ment actuallj' determine your release policies; is that correct?
Mr. jNI-i-ER. They determine it in part. We consult with them in
relation to that policy, as I have already indicated, and we consult
from time to time as the different stages of the program develop.
I have left that question open so that we could take it up.
I will say this, from the standpoint of the United States, as a whole,
if it is safe for people to go about their business in the meantime,
I think it will save the Government money and a great deal' of trouble
and maybe a more intensive race problem, after the war, if we could
be assured by the military and by the Justice Department it would be
safe to relocate all these people after the war is over and after the
military effort is such that it is indicated that we do not need to
concern ourselves about it.
But that will be a matter for them to determine with us, Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. Now, I would like to know whether it is your policy
or the War Department policy, or the Department of Justice policy,
which developed this ratlier unique theory which you were discussing
yesterday, which you say now operates to the effect that a bad Jap-
anese in Baltimore or Boston is a good Japanese in Chicago or
Omaha.
Is that a policy of the War Department or a policy of the Depart-
ment of Justice, would you say ?
62626— 43— vol. 15 54
9678 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myer. I thought 1 explained that pretty thoroughly yesterday.
Mr. MuNDT. But not very clearly.
Mr. Myer. I explained that we deferred to General Drum's wishes,
without any proclamation on his part whatsoever, to have all cases of
people who wanted to relocate within the Eastern Defense Connnand
referred to the Joint Japanese-American Board, before we released
them directly to come in here, except in special cases by agreement.
Xow, let me say that that is simply deferment to General Druni'^
wishes under a gentlemen's agreement. It was made away last sum-
mer ; we have stayed with it without any legal provision involved in
it and without any regulation being issued in relation to it.
Mr. MuNDT. That part is very clear.
Mr. Myer. That is the only reason that there is that difference.
Mr. MuNDT. That is a very happy relationship insofar as General
Drum is concerned and the Eastern Defense Command, but I wonder
whose idea it is that after a man has been rejected by this Japanese-
American Board, that he is still eligible for Chicago, Omaha, or the
Middle West.
Mr. Myer. I made it very clear yesterday, Mr. Congressman^ and I
will make it clear again.
We have accepted full responsibility, after having the facts from the
Intelligence Agency, and all the other information we can get for
who goes out on indefinite leave throughout the country.
Mr. MuNDT. And for permitting those who have been released by
this Board to remain?
Mr. Myer. Correct.
Mr. MuNDT. All right.
Mr. Myer. I thought I had made that cfear yesterday ; I am sorry.
Mr. Eberharter. I just want to ask a question with respect to the
policy as provided in this document.
You say here "delayed relocation." That means, in effect, delayed
resettlement.
Mr. Myer. Outside of the centers.
Mr. Eberharter. Outside of the centers ?
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. Eberharter. By "delayed" you mean that they are not going
to be released immediately ; is that what you mean ?
Mr. My'er. We have hesitated, gentleman, to ever say, up to this
time, that we have denied leave to anyone for the reason that I am
reading here, that we feel we are on shaky legal grounds in relation
to habeas corpus cases, and we have talked about "delay" rather than
"deny."
That helps to answer your question, I think.
Now, I would like to finish this general statement because it does
have a bearing on the whole situation. [Reading] :
The War Relocation Authority is denying indefinite leave to those evacuees
who request repatriation or expatriation to Japan or who have answered in the
negative, or refused to answer at all, a direct question as to their loyalty to the
United States, or against whom the Intelligence agencies or War Relocation Au-
thority records supply direct evidence of disloyalty or subversiveness.
The great majority of the evacuees fall into none of these classes, and are
thus eligible to leave under the Authority's regulations.
On June 21, 1943, the Supreme Court of the United States handed down its
decision in the case of Gordon Hirabayashi v. United States. Hirabayashi had
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9679
b*vn touvicted of violating both the curfew orders and the evacuation orders
applicable to Japanese Americans.
Tiie Court held that the curfew was a valid exercise of the war power. Al-
though the question of the validity of the evacuation orders was directly pre-
sented to the (^onrt in that cj«se, the Court did not decide that question.
There is evidence in the majority and concnrrii.K opinions of the Conrt in
the llirdhiuiaxhl caxc that, althou.gh it found the curlew to he valiil, it be-
lieved the evacuation orders present ditticnlt questions of constitutional power,
and detention within a relocation center even more difficult questions.
Mr. Justice Murphy, in his concurring opinion, said concerning the curfew
orders: "In my opinion this goes to the voiy brink of constitutional power."
Mr. Justice Douglas, in his concurring opinion, said : "Detention for reason-
able cause is one thing. Detention on account of ancestry is another. * * *
Obedience to the militai'y orders is one thing. Whether ati individual member
of a group must lie afforded at some stage an opportunity to show that, being
loyal, lie should be reclassified is a wholly different question. * * * j^^t if
it were plain that no machinery was available whereby the individual could
demonstrate his loyalty as a citizen in order to be reclassified, questions of a
more serious character would be presented. The United States, however, takes
no such position."
The Chief Justice, in the majority opinion, was careful to point out that the
Court was limiting its decision to the curfew orders and was not considering
the evacuation orders or confinement in a relocation center.
More than a year has passed since evacuation was begun. During this year
we have, of course, had time to make necessary investigations and to begin the
process of considering the evacuees on an individual basis.
The leave regulati(ms are intended to provide the due process and hearing
which fair dealing, democratic procedures, and the American Constitution all
require.
Mr. Ererharter. Have you any additional copies of that state-
ment ?
Mr. Myer. Yes. I have additional copies. We will be glad to
supply you M'ith all you want.
Mr. Chairman, while we are on that particular point, and since it
was requested yesterday that I supply for the record Attorney Gen-
eral Biddle's statement, I would like to supply at this moment two or
three items on this particular phase
Mr. Tho3Ias (interposing). Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Myer. May I finish just this statement?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr. Myer. I was requested to supply a letter to Mr. McCloy with
attached memorandum which, incidentally, was sent to the chairman
of the Appropriations Committee of the House on June 15, review-
ing the policies in relation to leave, which I am not going to read
now. but I want to note in this — -well, I would like to read a portion
of it, which was read to Mr. McCloy over the phone, and which he
has approved and which is indicated by my file, if I can find the exact
item.
I am sorry. Anyhow, the statement is this, that the War Depart-
ment has approved the program from the standpoint of the military
security of the country, and it is a part of the record, and you may
read it, if you wish, and if you want me to take the time I will do it.
My letter to Mr. McCloy is this :
Attached is a copy of my letter of June 15 to Representative Clarence Camion,
which I read to you over the telephone this morning, and which you approved
in line with the facts. This copy is for your files.
This is a copy of my letter to Mr. McCloy of June 16, and a copy of
a memorandum to the Honorable Clarence Cannon of June IT), review-
9680 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
ing the leave program and pointing out that it had been approved by
the War Department, the Justice Department, and other agencies.
(The letters referred to are contained in the committee file as an
exhibit. )
Mr. Eberharter. Is there a letter from the War Department saying^
that they approved it ?
Mr. Myer. No. This is simply a confirming statement that he did
approve my memorandum, which has in it the statement that the War
Department had approved it.
Mr. Eberharter. The statement Avas made by Mr. McCloy ?
Mr. Myer. I believe I told you yesterday that this is what I had : I
had no letter from Mr. McCloy, but I did have his approval over the
telephone confirming it, with a copy sent to him.
Now, if you wish, I will be glad to supply a statement from him that
it was in light of the facts.
Mr. Eberharter. And that he approved it.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. Eberharter. I would like to have that in the record, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you a lawyer ?
Mr. Myer. I am not ; no, sir.
That was drawn up by our solicitor.
Mr. MuNDT. I thought it was. It is a pretty impressive legal argu-
ment.
Mr. Myer. It was drawn by the Solicitor of the War Department.
Mr. MuNDT. Between you and me, now, as a couple of curbstone
laymen, do you not feel that these same legal arguments should hold
equally well in Massachusetts as they do in Minnesota, for instance ?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. I think so myself.
Mr. Meyer. We have no argument on that.
Mr. Eberharter. When was this statement prepared ; it has no date
on it. When was it made?
Mr. Myer. I don't know. The summary of an earlier statement
of policy was made within the last 2 or 3 weeks.
]\Ir. Thomas. What is the name of your solicitor ?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Phillip Glick;
Under date of September 25, 1942, I received this letter and I
would like to read it, before I present it for the record. It is from
Attorney General Francis Biddle.
Dear Mr. Myer: I have your letter of September 24, 1942, enclosing a copy
of your proposed leave regulations. Your letter requests this Department to
check the names of Japanese who are released against the records of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, Army and Navy Intelligence, and to make any
further investigation this Department thinks desirable. Your letter also re-
quests advice as to whether the proposed leave policy is sound from the internal
security standpoint.
It is believed that the program outlined by you, if administered with the
utmost care, is sound from the internal security standpoint. This Department,
through the Federal Bureau of Investigation, would undertake to check the
names of such persons against the investigation record.
Mr. Thomas. What is the date of that ?
;Mr. Myer. September 25, 1942.
May I read that over again and get the connection ?
It is believed that the program outlined by you, if administered with the
utmost care, is sound from the internal security standpoint. This Department,
UX-AMERIC.\X PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9681
tbrough the Federal Bureau of Investigation, would undertake to check the
names of such persons against the investigation records. Of course you have
in mind that the information contained in our records relates in practically
all instances to subversive activities and the like. Many of the persons in-
volved in this program will not have records of such activity but may, on the
other hand, be involved in other illegal or improper conduct which would bear
careful investigation. Consequently provisions will have to be made by you
to cover that aspect of the matter.
Mr. Thomas. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a qttestion at that
point.
You saj^ the letter was dated in 1942 ?
Mr. Myer. September 25, 1942.
And it is previous to the time that these regulations were submitted
to the Federal Register for publication.
Mr. Thomas. I have in my hand a mimeographed sheet that one
of our investigators picked up in the Gila River relocation project,
dated May 15, 1943.
Have you ever seen that before ?
Mr. Myer. I don't remember seeing it ; no.
Mr. Thomas. Well, I will read it to you.
(The letter referred to is contained in the committee file as an
exhibit.)
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, the Attorney General, I believe, did call
our office. He said he had a letter from his cousin who was interested
in securing an evacuee. That offer was submitted to Gila, as it was to
our other offices, as would any other offer be.
It was not for Attorney General Biddle himself ; it was on the per-
sonal request from a cousin of his from Bryn Mawr, Pa., as indicated
in that statement.
Mr. Thomas. That may be true, but why did not the cousin submit
the request and not the Attorney General ?
Mr. oSIyer. I thought she assumed he was very close in touch with
things and that he knew better than she did whom to contact.
That is the only explanation I have to offer, Mr. Thomas. If you
have any other questions, I will be glad to call the Attorney General
and get the backgroimd.
Mr. Thomas. I was wondering whether there was any connection
between that request dated May. 1943, and the letter which he sub-
mitted to you dated September, 1942.
Mr. Myer. I think I can say, without fear of contradiction, there
was absolutely no connection, excepting that we did have leave regu-
lations that provided the opportunity for evacuees to leave the center.
Mr. Thomas. Do you happen to know whether all of the other mem-
bers of the Cabinet are going to make requests for those Japs?
Mr. Myer. No. I have not had any other requests excepting one
from Secretary Ickes which has been well publicized. I think that is
well understood, and I would say, for every free citizen of the United
States, if they wished to make a request, we will do our best as we have,
for anyone else, to fill the bill.
Mr. Costello. The investigation made by the Justice Department
was, you might say, a cursory one.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, I will be glad to read the letter again.
Mr. Eberharter. Yes; read it again, please.
Mr. Costello. As to the check against their files.
9682 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myeb. I think I made that perfectly clear yesterday.
Mr. CosTELLO. Actually there was no investigation of any kind made
into the real background of the prior activities of any Japanese
released.
]SIr. Myek. First, I would like to point out that they agreed to be
responsible for supplying the records that might be available, not only
in the F. B. I. but the Army Intelligence and the Naval Intelligence,
and that they reserve the right to make any further investigations
that they felt were desirable.
Now, what they have done in all cases, I am not sure that I know.
They have made investigations, as I indicated yesterday.
Now, for the last paragraph [reading] :
It is believed that the program outlined by you, if administered with the
utmost care, is sound from the internal security standpoint. This department,
through the Federal Bureau of Investigation, would undertake to cheek the
names of such persons against the investigative records. Of course, you have
in mind that the information contained in our records relates in practically
all instances to subversive activities and the like. Many of the persons involved
in this program will not have records of such activity but may, on the other
hand, be involved in other illegal or improper conduct which would bear careful
investigation. Consequently, provision will have to be made by you to cover
that aspect of the matter.
I might say that I have discussed that aspect very much with Mr.
Hoover, himself, in detail. We, with their suggestions and assist-
ances, have set up records in our relocation centers.
Tliose records are checked in all cases before we make releases,
regarding their activities that may have developed within the centers,
and, where we can secure it, we get the background of whatever crim-
inal tendencies they may have developed.
Mr. MuNDT. They have put a pretty clefinite mandate on you when
they said "further investigations will have to be made."
Mr. Myer. That is correct, and we made it, and so far we have not
had any indication from them that w^e are doing a poor job. They
reserve the right to make additional investigations.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you enumerate the 1, 2, 3, and 4 different steps
you have taken in response to tJhat very definite mandate by the
Department of Justice, that you make further investigation?
Mr. Myer. Before I do that, may I just give the indication what
tliese letters are and submit them for the record, and then pass on ?
The next letter is a letter dated November 27. 1942, signed by Paul
V. McNutt, chairman of the War Manpower Commission, endorsing,
in general, the leave program.
(The letter referred to is contained in the committee file as an
exhibit.)
Mr. Myer. The next letter is dated May 28, 1943. signed by Chester
Davis, now no longer War Food Administrator, but at that time he
was Food Administrator, asking that every assistance be given in the
recruiting of people for agricultural work, who could be released.
(The letter referred to is contained in the committee file as an
exhibit.)
Mr. MuNDT. Now. Avill the reporter please read my question?
Mr. Myer. May I refer to some notes here. Mr. Chairman?
Wltile I am looking for those. I think I can be talking.
Our process in checking leave. Mr. Chairman
rX-AMEHICAX PHOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9683
Mr. Muxirr (interposing). Before you start talking, I would like
to have the reporter read my question, so that you will get it spe-
cifically.
(Question read In' the reporter.)
Mr. Myfjj. First, I would like to read a few questions in the basic
data th.at wc secure from each individual and submit a copy for the
record, from a form that was utilized in connection with registrations
in February and jNIarch that I referred to 3'esterday.
I will not read all of these, and I will tiy not to bore you with it,
but I tlnnk it is necessary to understand the background.
( The letter referred to is contained in the connnittee file as an
exhibit.)
Mr. MuxDT. This is the questionnaire?
Mr. Myer. This is the questionnaire that every one of 17 years of
age. and older, was required to fill out.
There are two forms, but the questions are about the same, so I
will simply review the one.
To begin with, of course, we have the applicant's name, age, de-
pendents, date of birth, citizenship, last two addresses at which j^ou
lived 3 months or more, sex, height, weight, and so on.
'"Are you a registered voter?"
Marital status, father's name and mother's name, and their birth-
places and their occupations, a list of relatives in the United States,
and, if in military service, indicate whether selective or volunteer.
'•Eelatives in Japan." We ask for that in detail.
Education, through from kindergarten to college, and as to where
their education was secured, whether here or Japan.
Foreign travel; give dates, where, how, for whom, with whom, and
reasons therefor. That was pretty essential from the standpoint of
business connections and generally connections with the Japanese
Government.
Employment throughout the years.
Religion, membership in religious groups, membership in organi-
zations, clubs, societies, associations, and so forth.
Give name, kind of organization, and dates of membership.
Knowledge of foreign languages. We have asked for a checkmark
on i-eading, writing, and speaking Japanese; whether good, fair, or
poor.
Sports and hobbies: types
Mr. Thomas (interposing). What has hobbies got to do with it?
Mr. Myer. Well, some of the folks think that sports and certain
types of hobbies, if they happen to be of the Japanese culture, has
a great deal to do with it, ancl we have utilized that as one basis for
determining whether they are maintaining contact with Japanese
sports rather than American sports.
Mr. Thomas. If he is a baseball player, is he considered a good
Jap?
Mr. Myer. Well, we have some people who think that a judo player
is a bad Jap. That is not always true. Judo is a Japanese type of
self-defense. We used to call it jujitsu.
There are other games that have been mentioned a good many
times as being successful.
Mr. ]MuxDT. On the sul)ject of judo, how much money is s[)ent per
month by the W. R. A. teaching the Japanese judo?
9684 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myer. I think I can give you the estimate pretty quickly.
Mr. MuNDT. Just roughly.
Mr. Myer. I would say two or three hundred dollars, perhaps.
Mr. Eberharter. Is that the total?
Mr. Myer. Under present policy. There have been times when
more than that was spent but I believe that it has been less than
that.
Mr. Eberharter. I believe it was one of your men, Mr. Townsend,
whom you did not want to substantiate.
Mr. Myer. Not very well.
Mr. Eberharter. But I think there was somebody told us that
there were 90 instructors at Poston at one time alone.
Mr. Myer. I think that is true.
Mr. Eberharter. They were getting $19 a month ?
Mr. Myer. That is true; that was a long time ago. That was a
great deal more than we have approved in recent months, and I think
very much different than now. I do not approve having that many
instructors of judo.
Mr. Eberharter. Would you say it was about two or three hundred
dollars a month at the present time ?
Mr. Myer. Two or three hundred dollars a month, but I would like
to recheck that for the record, because I figured it very quickly.
Mr. Eberharter. We would like to have you do that and put that
in the record.
Mr. Myer. 1 will.
Mr. Eberharter. Why do you feel it is good policy to spend that
much money in teaching the Japanese a form of military tactics, sir?
Mr. Myer. The people who are being taught are not Japanese.
They are Americans, some of whom have become members of the
American Army, and I understand we are teaching the same thing to
the American Army.
Mr. CosTELLo. Americans of Japanese ancestry?
Mr. Myer. Yes ; they are Americans of Japanese ancestry. Every-
body in the relocation centers, except the administrative staff, are all
of Japanese ancestry, except a few mixed marriages — married people
that are allowed to be there.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you give your rifle practice on the same theory?
Mr. Myer. No; we don't. We think that opportunities for avoca-
tions of that type including baseball, and which ought not to affect the
morale of people in the centers — they should have some of the same
opportunities for sports and play that you have in supervised play-
grounds in the cities generally throughout the country.
Now, generally speaking, they are paying for their own recreation.
They are paying for their own equipment. We did provide, early in
the game, some equipment to start them off, with certain types of
equipment such a baseball bats, and this, that, and the other. We
have a policy of not replacing those.
Mr. MuNDT. How much are you spending per month teaching the
Japanese to play baseball?
Mr. Myer. I don't know. I would have to check that up.
Mr. MuNDT. Check that, because it would be interesting to see
whether there is money being spent to teach them to play baseball.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITEES 9685
Mr. ISIyer. I will be glad to supply a statement for the record, re-
garding the whole communities' activities program, as to the number
of people employed, as it affects baseball and judo, and any other
activity that might be tied in with the program.
IVIr. jNIundt, 1 am not only interested in baseball and judo, Mr.
Mver.
Mr. Myer. I doubt whether
Mr. MuxDT (interposing). I have a feeling that these camps could
be well utilized to Americanize these citizens of Japanese ancestry,
and that one step in the process is to sever the ties of old Japanese
customs and ideas.
I do not believe in teaching them anything which has to do with
Japanese customs and ideas, and to teach them at the American tax-
payers' expense, such as a form of judo, which is very indicative of
their Japanese culture and customs.
Mr. ]\Iyer. AVould you suggest a law that they not be taught in the
American Army, too i
Mr. MuNDT. No.
Mr. CosTELLo. I think the type of judo taught in the American
Army ditfers very widely from that taught in the Japanese schools,
and so on.
Mr. Myer. May be. I will not argue about that, but I think it
should be.
Mr. CosTELLO. The Japanese game of judo carries with it certain
definite ceremonials, which are eliminated in our own Army training.
Our s^'stem of Army training is confined more to jujitsu and the
practices that go along with it, but the Japanese form of judo carries
with it these ceremonials that are definitely linked up with Japanese
culture and customs.
Mr. Myer. Not necessarily does it carry with it, the way it is be-
ing taught in the centers.
Mr. CosTELLO. Well, I do not know specifically how it is being
taught in the centeBS.
Mr. Myer. It is being taught in Japan that way, I agree.
Mr. CosTELLO. It should be noted that the Japanese ceremonials
consist of bowing to the Emperor and to each other and with definite
instructions that have a peculiar significance, and closely associated
with Japan, as a Japanese custom, and not American in any sense
of the word.
Mr. Myer. All of that does not necessarily follow in relocation
centers.
Now, as to whether or not there are any ceremonials, I am not abso-
lutely certain, but it does not necessarily follow.
May I proceed with this ?
Mr. ]\IrNDT. I want to explore this judo a little bit, because to me
it is one thing on which I think you will frankly agree with the com-
mittee.
I hope you agree that these centers, insofar as they inculcate any-
thing, should inculcate Americanism.
Mr. Myer. I agree. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. I simply cannot see how you can inculcate American-
ism by fanning the flames, teaching racial games ; by going back and
picking up some racial game like judo, and spending money to teach
9686 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
people who probably do not even know it. You do not have to teach
it to those who understand it.
Mr. Mter. Mr. Cliairman
Mr. MuNDT (interposing). I can see how that mistake would be
made in policy and you would want to correct it, but you apparently
want to defend it.
Mr. Myer. I do not see where that is necessarily true that certain
types of wrestling, even though it does tie back to Japan, might be
considered subversive or un-American, if properly handled.
I think it might be turned to the proper use. I have checked that
with certain exj^erts in the field of intelligence, including one of the
key members of the Naval Intelligence, because I became concerned
about it myself, and he indicated to me that it was not necessarily bad.
If properly handled, it could be good.
So there is a great deal more Americanization going on in the
centers than there is Japanization, as far as our activities are con-
cerned.
Mr. MuNDT. Now, let us stop with judo for a moment.
Mr. Myer, You are intimating, Mr. Mundt, I believe, there is
no Americanization process going on.
Mr. Mundt. Oh, no.
Mr. Myer. O. K. ; all right.
Then we will come back to that.
Mr. Mundt. I read this paper and I think it is a very fine American
program.
Mr. Myer. Fine.
Mr. Mundt. But I think it is impeded and handicapped and cir-
cumvented, in part, by teaching them things which are definitely
Japanese.
For example, you are also spending taxpayers' money in those
centers to teach them goh which is a form of Japanese checkers,
which we do not teach in the American Army.
Why do you do that ?
Mr. Myer. I think there has been same money spent in community
activities, in sports and games, of different types, including goh, but
the
Mr. Mundt (interposing). But this is definitely Japanese.
Mr. Myer. Would you cut out Chinese checkers, too?
That originated in China. I don't think that games of that type
are necessarily subversive.
Mr. Mundt. Not necessarily subversive at all, but you are teaching
them things which are part of the culture and the customs of Japan.
There is a difference between that, Mr. Myer, and being subversive.
You are perpetuating the tie with the old country, which we do not
do in forming Americanism in any other game or in any other place
I know anything about.
Mr. Myer. And we have no other game or place like the reloca-
tion centers in the world, that I know anything about.
Mr. Thomas. I will say not.
Mr. Myer. There is no basis for comparison.
]Mr. Mundt. That does not justify the program, however.
Mr. Myer. No; it does not justify the program. Except to say that
we have — if I may make this statement — we have allowed certain games
UN-AMEKICAX PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9687
and certain tyi)es of activity that tie back to Japanese culture, because
■^'e have a mixed oroup of people ranainor from aliens who, as I said
yesterday, amonir tlie men. avera<»e 00 years of ao;e, down to third-
iXeneiatioii kids, most of whom are just as American as my kids, and 1
think tliey are pretty American,
Mr. MuNDT. Allowing- them to learn Japanese customs and to spend
that money to teacli aames are two different things. I have no objec-
tion to your allowing- them to play goh, but I am objecting to you
spending the taxpayers' money on it.
Why do you not teach them an American game like cribbage, or
sometlnng else?
Mr. Myer. I don't believe any money is being expended in teaching
those games at the present time. I admitted a while ago there was
some being expended earlier.
Mr. MuxDT. Will you put in the record a statement whether or not
there is any being spent ?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you not agree that it is an unwise policy to con-
tinue it?
Mr. jN'^yer. Sure.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you. I have no objection to the fact that they
publish i:)art of these papers in Japanese. Why? ^ Because some people
cannot read P^nglish.
But I do object to this: In your paper we picked up in the camp
down there, under date of June 17, the Poston Chronicle, which comes
out in mimeograDhed form weekdays and in print on Sundays, there
is this, to me. rather astounding announcement :
Adult education to hold pen class : A beginners .Japanese penmanship class
for those without any knowledge of Japanese will begin soon. Those interested
are asked to register at the adult education office 210-13-A. Advance classes will
be held at 309 mess on Tuesday and 326-2-.\ on Thursday, from 8 p. m.
I cannot conceive why we should teach Americans of Japanese
ancastry the Japanese language if we are trying to make them Ameri-
can citizens or to Americanize them.
Mr. Myer. Here is one reason I can think of, Mr. Mundt, and that
is that we have been requested by the intelligence agencies, in some
cases to do just that, as a basis for developing people with a better
knowledge of the language, so that they might be used in the Military
Intelligence or instruction work; people who are working in Military
Intelligence.
That is one reason that I would know, and I would agree with you
OQ the policy, if that is being done without this other thing in mind.
I am in perfect agreement with you; I am glad to know about this.
I will check into the case. I don't think we should be teaching that
in center^s unless we are doinc; it under that kind of a request.
Mr. IMuNDT. I am familiar with your program, whereby we are
trying to teach some loyal citizens of Japanese ancestry so that we
can use them as interpreters; I quite agree with that, but to broadcast
an announcement by anybody who does not know Japanese should
be taught it seems to me to be a very unwise spending of the taxpayers'
money.
Mr. Myer. I agree with you.
Mr. Mundt. And also un-American.
9688 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, IMyer. I agree with you.
This is the first time it has come to my attention, and I will check
into the matter.
Mr. MuNDT. All right.
Mr. Eberharter. Do you know whether or not these teachers are
being paid by the funds of the Government to permit these cere-
monials that are connected with the ancient game of jujutsu, or judo?
Mr. Myer. No; there are no funds at the present time being ex-
pended by the Government to develop that kind of procedure, and so
far as I know, there are no funds being spent to either supervise or
teach ancient ceremonials of the type that }' ou mentioned.
I will check the matter, as I have indicated to Mr. Mundt and make
a statement for the record in relation to that, to be sure. I some-
times find that when I check into the matter, that policy is not being
followed, and I would not want to be picked up on it without check-
ing in some detail.
But I will check it and supply a statement for the record.
Now, to come back to this questionnaire for a moment :
The next question is —
List five references, other than relatives or former employers, preferably per-
sons resident in areas where you formerly resided, giving address, occupation,
and number of years known.
The next one is —
Have you ever been before an Alien Enemy Hearing Board? If so, give date
and disposition of case.
Have you ever been arrested or similarly detained? If so, state offense, date,
court, and disposition of c'ase.
Have you ever been subjected to any disciplinary action since your evacua-
tion? If so, state the circumstances and the disposition of your case.
Give details on any foreign investments.
Then it lists a long indication of type ; bank, investment in foreign
companies, safety-deposit box in a foreign country, contents, and
so on.
List contributions you have made to any society, organization, or club.
List maerazines and newspapers to which you liave subscribed or have custo-
marily read.
To the best of your knowledge, was your birth ever registered with any Japa-
nese governmental agency for the purpose of establishing a claim to Japanese
citizenship?
Have you ever applied for repatriation to Japan?
The next two are famous questions 27 and 28.
If the opportunity presents itself and you are found qualified, would you be
willing to volunteer for the Army Nurse Corps or the Women's Auxiliary Ar«iiy
Corps?
This one happened to be the one with reference to female citizens.
The other one says "Army" for the male citizens.
The next one :
Will you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of America and
forswear any form of allegiance or obedience to the Japanese Emperor, or any
other foi-eign government, power, or organization?
Now, that question, I might say, in relation to allegiance, was
changed shortly after the registration started, because by swearing
to such a statement, those who could not become citizens of the United
States, would become a man without a country, so we changed it.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAG.\NDA ACTIVITIES 9689
I think the question was — and I will be glad to supply it correctly
for the record ; but as I remember it, it was —
Do you swear to abide by the laws of the United States and do nothiug that
would interfere with the war effort of the United States"/
Mr. MuNDT. We have that.
Mr. Myer. All right.
Have you ever worked for or volunteered your services to the Japanese
or Spanish Governments?
Have you ever registered any of your children with a Japanese or Spanish
consul?
^Ir. CosTELLO. When was that questionnaire submitted to the
evacuees ?
Mr. Myer. This questionnaire was submitted to the evacuees in
most centers beginning on February 10.
Mr, CosTELLO. Of this year ?
Mr. Myer. Yes. Previous to that time we used another form for
our basic information.
We had much the same type of information in making our investi-
gation for this known as W. R. A. 26, which I will be glad to put
in the record, which supplied generally the same facts.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is that the one that was issued to carry out the
provisions of the letter of September 25 of the Attorney General ?
Mr. Myer. No. I simply give that as the starting point, to give
us the basic records from which to start. This information does pro-
vide the opportunity for us to check against any facts we have in
the record as to trips to Japan, the tie-back to other relationships,
type of occupation, type of business relationships. That is all very
basic as far as part of the pattern that is necessary.
In addition to that
Mr. Thomas (interposing). Before you go on, I would like to ask
another question.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. Thomas. You probably received anywhere from 107,000 an-
swers to those questionnaires.
Mr. ;Myer. Seventy-three thousand, approximately.
Mr. Thomas. Seventy -three thousand?
Mr. Myer. Yes. You see, we only asked for 17 years old and over,
so it would be smaller than the total number we have in the centers.
]Mr. Thomas. Of course you cannot check on many of the questions,
natural!}^, but there are some things that you can check on and one is
the five references.
Mr. Myer. That is right.
Mr. Thomas. Have j^ou checked on those references?
Mr. Myer. No ; not in all cases. We have, when we have any ques-
tion, but I never utilized those as a basis for a check. Up until the
time that these were filled out, and until we had this basic data, and
until we began to get our intelligence reports cleared through for us,
we did send to all of the references a letter.
I might say we have some 70.000 letters that we have not been able
to get filed because of lack of file clerks. We used them at the time,
but we have not got them finally filed ; that is, those that came in- in
relation to references, so we did use them until the registration was
complete.
9690 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The last 2 or 3 months we have not been writing to all the references.
We only use references now w^iere we want to follow np more in
detail, but we have used them in that case.
Mr. Thomas. I suppose you have investigators that check on some
of the other angles ; do you not ?
Mr. Myer. Well, we check these answers, of course, against the
Intelligence files, where there is any question whatsoever.
As a matter of fact, we check to see whether there is an Intelli-
gence file.
Mr. Thomas. Do you have investigators that can do that kind of
work ?
Mr. Myer. Well, we have field investigators in our relocation offices
whose main job, I might say, is to follow up. The project is given
the responsibility for investigation.
Mr. Thomas. How many investigators do you have, all told?
Mr. Myek. Well, people that clo different types of investigation
work, that might involve some investigation — I think I gave a figure
yesterday of 150 in our field offices, that might be utilized in that
respect.
Mr. MuNDT. How many of the 73.000 people who answered the
questionnaires answered "No-' to question No. 27?
Mr. Myer. I cannot give you 27; let us take 28. About 10 percent.
Let us settle on that.
Mr. MuNDT. All right.
Mr. Myer. That is female citizens. Now, there was a larger group
of male citizens; about 25 percent of the Army-age group, close to
right around that figure, that answered "No."
And I might say one reason that the percentage is higher, is be-
cause of the rather large group of Kibei. You know what that is,
w^hen people have been back to Japan; many of whom have come
back here in rather recent years ; that enlarged that group somewhat.
There is a rather sizable group of Kibei whose parents are back
in Japan. They are one of the troublesome situations in the centers.
Many of them become Japanized and don't talk Engli^sh very well.
Some of them came back as late as 1940, I might say. Some of
them are in Leuppe.
Mr. MuNDT. How many are there in Leupp?
Mr. Myer. I don't know how many Kebei, but the most of them
are Kibei.
Mr. MuNDT. I mean altogether.
IVIr. Myer. About 60.
Mr. MuNDT. About 60?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. And that is just a small camp; is it?
Mr. Myer. Yes. We figure that I^eupp will accommodate 300
people. We have no families there. We utilize Leupp simply as a
center for troublemakers who are not aliens, who are entirely within
the administration of the center, or who we definitely find are inter-
ested in the agitation of subversive activities and who we need to put
away from the other folks.
I mentioned yesterday, I think, that we maintain Leupp largely for
our citizen cases, because we do not always have evidence enough to
put them through the civil courts and prove to the courts that they
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9691
have been subversive, but we are haA'in<»; to take care of them on that
kinil of a basis, because there is no other alternative.
Mr. MuNDT. You have no other phice where you can put allegedly
subversive or disloyal citizens of Jai)anese ancestry except at Leupp?
Mr. IVIteh. AVe will have soon. We have had a segregation policy
under way for several weeks now.
Mr. JMuxDT. But you do not have at this time anybody else detained
except Japanese aliens at Leupp, is that right?
Mr. ]\Iyer. Well. Japanese aliens, as I mentioned yesterday, and I
want to repeat — Ja]:)anese aliens under our laws may be interned with
no difficulty under Presidential warrant by the Justice Department, so
that we have an agreement and have had, for some months, with the
Justice Department, where we have aliens in the center, where we have
secured reasonable evidence that they are agitators and are causing
difficulty, and if we can get reasonable documentation on them, all
we need to do is to supply that to them and they take them to the
internment camp and we do not need to take care of those.
Mr. MuNDT. How many of those are there?
Mr. Myer. About 100, since the centers were set up.
Previous to that there were abr)ut 2,000 interned in war camps now
in the hands of the Justice Department.
Mr. MuNDT. And you have about 160 who are detailed and segre-
gated because of the suspicion of disloyalty?
Mr. Myer. Yes: and because of activities that interfere with the
administration of and the peace and quiet of the camp and are trouble-
makers. All those people in the Leupp group have gone into that
center since January.
Mr. MuNDT. And the remainder of those 7,500 who entered "No" to
this question are still scattered around the camps?
Mr. Myer. That is right. Those people, we hope, will be moved
September 1 if we can get transportation to one center; expatriates,
patriates, those who are processed through that procedure.
As I started to say — and I Avould like to repeat — that policy was
determined on sometime ago. It is a rather complex matter. It in-
volves checking with the military and the O. D. T. on transportation.
We have not picked our time when it is feasible to do it.
It involves many other complexities, but we have definitely deter-
mined on a segregation program which will move first the expatriat-es
and next those Avho have answered "No" to the loyalty question, and
any other people we feel that are dangerous to the national security, to
a separate center.
Mr. ISIuxDT. That will start September 1 ?
Mr. Myer. That is the plan at the present time.
Mr. Eberharter. I wish you would have prepared this afternoon,
to give us in detail, a full and comprehensive statement of any policy
that you have determined upon, and any program that j'ou have
detei-mined upon witli respect to segregation.
Ml-. Mykr. Mr. Eberharter. I shall be very glad to even go into
th.'^t now. into drawn schedules, if you wish, but I want to say
Mr. Eberharter (interposing). I want to digress — I would like to
digress right now until Ave have the answer to Mr. Mundt's question
there, for you to set forth the various measures that you take with
respect to investigations, before releasing these evacuees.
9692 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
You started out with the basis in the questionnaire.
Mr. Myer. We did a;et off the track, didn't we ?
Mr. Eberharter. Yes.
Mr. Myer. All right. Let us come back to it.
The second point I started to mention was that the internal security-
files are checked in every case as to the relation to our police records
in the center, and any other police record that we can secure from
the background ; if he does have a police history in the center.
Our employment records are checked, the general record of the
individual, throughout the weeks and the months that he has been
in the center have been checked as to his cooperation with the ad-
ministration, and his attitude as to whether or not he has ever said
anything that would indicate subversive activities.
I want to repeat, in cases where we have question, we do refer back
to the people where they have been living previously. We check the
Intelligence records against all three of the records, through the
F. B. I. and any other information we can secure from any source.
And, I want to say to this committee again, as I said yesterday,
if there are any files of this committee, as Mr. Stripling indicated, of
any dangerous saboteurs, we would like to have them so designated
and put into our records so that we can put the stop on them at the
projects and see that they are not released.
I would like to have that as soon as possible, with an indication
as to why they are dangerous saboteurs, so that when we do put a
stop on them,, we won't be charged with having stopped someone who
might want to bring habeas corpus under our rather shaky legal
basis.
Mr. Thomas. Why have you not asked that question of this com-
mittee before?
Mr. Myer. I have asked that question of this committee before,
in a letter directed to Mr. Dies on June 2, 2 or 3 days after the
charge was made, and copy was sent to you, Mr. Thomas, Mr. Cos-
tello, Mr. Eberharter, Mr. Mundt, and every other member of the
committee.
Mr. Thomas. The Dies committee has been in existence a much
longer time than that, and it has only been recently that you asked
that question.
Mr. Myer. It was not until that time that anybody on the Dies
committee indicated that they had information of that type, and it
was only when Mr. Stripling was quoted in the newspapers Saturday
and Sunday previous to Decoration Day that that was brought to my
attention.
And I think it was on Tuesday; I had an appropriation hearing
on Monday — that I wrote the letter to Mr. Dies.
And I would be glad to supply a copy of- Mr. Dies' letter for the
record.
And I want to repeat that a copy came to you along with everyone
else.
Mr. Thomas. I admit that ; but did you not think the Dies commit-
tee might have had something in their files just the same as the
F. B. I.?
Mr. Mter. I didn't know.
Mr. Thomas. Or the Military Intelligence ?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVrTIES 9693
Mr. Myer. If tliey have, I have not received it.
Mr. Thomas. I cannot understand that. Why did you not get in
touch with the committee to find out?
You did not get in touch with the committee until you read some
adverse criticism concerning the AVar Relocation Authority.
Mr. Myer. I did not know at that time that the Dies committee
considered themselves specialists or that they felt they had the names
of saboteurs that they felt needed concentration
Mr. Thomas (interposing). You heard of the Dies committee, did
you not?
Mr. Myer. Oh, yes ; I heard of the Dies committee.
^Ir. Thomas. I know you heard about the Dies committee, the same
as any other person.
But a Xew Dealer would not want to get in touch with the com-
mittee.
Mr. Myer. We won't argue about that point at the moment.
May I read the letter of June 2 for the record, and then put it in
the record? This was addressed to Mr. Dies, as chairman of the
committee.
I may add, too, that it was sent to all members of the committee.
^Ir. MuNDT. Have you completed your list ? We are getting away
from this list now.
Ml-, Myer. Since we are off on a rabbit trail, let me read it.
Mr. Thomas. We have that also.
Mr. MvER. I want the press to hear it.
Mr. Thomas. This letter is dated Jmie 2, and a few days later you
released it to the press.
Mr. INIyer. The press?
Mr. Thomas. Yes.
Mr, Myer. Xo ; this letter was not released by me to the press. I
think Warren Francis did give it some publicity and published a
little excerpt in the Los Angeles Times.
I didn't release it to the press.
Mr. Thomas. J saw the press release later.
Mr. Myer. O.K.
May I read the letter, ]Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Thomas. I think you are wasting time.
Mr. CosTEixo. If you want to read it, all right; but I do not see
that it serves any i)articular purpose.
Mr. Myer. Thank you. [Reading:]
Dear ]Mr. Diks : I have noted in the press i-ecently a number of statements
hy representatives of the Conmiittee on Un-American Activities which have a
direct i)e;irinf; on the work of the War Kelocatioii Authority, and have the
effect of seriously interfering with the pngram which this agency has been in-
structed by the President and the Congress to carry out.
The statements have been .^o misleading to the public, and so fraught with
errors and half truths that I am impelled to record my comments for your
information.
Several of tlif statements have dwelt upon the presence of organized and
dangerous pro-Japan<\se elements in the west coast population prior to the out-
hr(>ak of war. No mentien is made of the fact that the Federal Intelligence
agencies apprehended several th(ni and suspects immediately after Pearl Har-
bor, and that those found guilty up<m hearii\gs have been incai-cerated in In-
termnent camps. Instead the implication is sti'ongly made that ;dl such sub-
versive individuals are to be found in the population of the relocation centers.
On May 2!), Mr. Robert E. Stripling, identitted as chief Investigator of your
62626 — 4.3— vol. 15 55
9694 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
committee, was quoted in the press as saying that spies and saboteurs are
being released from the relocation centers.
The charges were not supported, but nevertheless they unquestionably would
have the effect of arousing mistrust of all persons of Japanese ancestry who
are seeking to relocate.
Since the War Relocation Authority grants leave from its centers with the
provision that an individual may be called back at any time for sufficient reason,
1 am only discharging my responsibilities when I request that I be supplied
with the names of any persons released from relocation centers who are spies
or saboteurs, or who have been trained in saboteur schools.
I suggest also that the names and evidence be made available immediately
to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
In a statement to the press on I\Iay 31, which I understand also was made by
Mr. Stripling, it A\'as charged that evacuees in relocation centers are provided
with foods of kinds and quantities not available to the general public. Except
for the amounts of food on hand at the Manzanar relocation center which pre-
sumably were accurately reported, the statement was erroneous and misleading.
The statement was made that "prime" beef was provided fur the evacuees.
The beef ordered for relocation centers is third grade.
The committee spokesman completely ignored the fact that all food rationing
restrictions of the Office of Price Administration are in force at relocation cen-
ters, that the actual cost of food is approximately 40 cents a day per person,
and the War Relocation Authority has deliberately refrained from purchasing
certain kinds of ford known to be scarce.
These facts were made known to the committee's investigators who visited
the Manzanar relocation center and could have been quickly and readily con-
firmed by a telephone call to this office.
The Office of the President has just referred to me the telegram of May 19
from Representative J. Parnell Thomas, a member of your committee, urging
Presidential action in stopping further release of people of Japanese ancestry
until section II of your committee's report on Axis activities can be issued, and
the committee's investigation of the relocation centers can be completed. In
the absence of any supporting facts, we must regard Mr. Thomas' request as
purely personal, and insufficient to warrant a change in the policies of this
agency.
We have our own records on all persons above 17 years of age in the relocation
centers, and we also have available to us Information from the records of the
Federal investigative agencies.
In the interest of national security we do not release any evacuee if his record
indicates any reason why it would not be advisable for him to live outside a
relocation center.
Oa the other hand, the manpower situation plus the constitutional guaranties
demand that loyal American citizens and law-abiding aliens be given every op-
portunity to contribute to the war effort by productive work in normal com-
munities.
Investigators for your committee have visited a number of the relocation
centers, and have received complete collaboration of the staff there. We in the
national office will be glad to cooperate fully in in-oviding facts which your com-
mittee may desire concerning the policies and procedures of this agency. To date
no member or representative of the committee has asked me for any informa-
tion or has been in touch with any member of the Washington staff.
In the meantime, I hope it will be possible for representatives of your com-
mittee to refrain frcun making public statements concerning the War Relocation
Authority on the basis of incomplete information. Continuance of this practice
of issuing irresponsible statements can only lead to the conclusion that the com-
mittee has abandoned its assignment of fact finding and in this instance is
devoting itself to the oppression of a minority. Such a course can contribute
only to national disunity and hinder the war elfort.
Mr. Myer. I submit that for the record.
Mr. CosTELLo. Now, will yott conchide these poi]its that Mr. Mundt
raised before as to the investigation yon were making?
Mr. Myf^r. I think I have concluded.
Mr. CosTELLO. You mentioned four points, I believe.
Mr. Mundt. Yes ; four points :
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGAJJDA ACTIVITIES 9695
1. Tliis questionnaire which was submitted for the record ;
2. The check of the police records of the Japanese in the centers;
3. Tile check of the employment record in the camps of the Japan-
ese; and
4. The check of the emploj'^ment record of the Japanese before
evacuation.
]\Ir. Myer. That is correct, and any other source of information
tliat can be secured from any place, I might say, gentlemen, the
Dies Committee included, if j^ou have anything to supply.
Mr. MuNDT. Those four are vour total responses to the Attornev
General's letter of May 25, 1942 'f
Mr. MvER. Those are the general principles that are followed in
this investigation.
Now, I would like to add
Mr. MuNDT (interposing). Wait a minute, now.
You have, since that time, in your supplemental statement No. 9,
issued April 2, eliminated two of those checks.
You have eliminated the home check and the F. B. I. check, accord-
ing to your testimony of j'^esterday.
Mr. Myer. In the meantime, we have
Mr. MuNDT (interposing). That is correct, is it not?
Mr. Myer. Well, with certain qualifications.
Mr. ]\IuxDT. Which ?
Mr. Myer. I have stated before, and I will state again, we have not
eliminated the F. B. I. checks where there is any question at all in
relation to the record.
I think I read in the record yesterday supplement No. 9, which has
been referred to, that involved eight points on which the project
director must satisfy himself, including the number of stops of cer-
tain people that had a certain history, and we do have the provision
where there is am^ question at all about the individual it shall be
submitted here and we will check the Intelligence records and make
the other checks, if necessar}', before they are allowed to go out.
Mr. MuNDT. You also testified yesterday that the local project
directors could release these evacuees.
Mr. Myer. That is correct,
Mr. jSIundt. Then if you subsequently, by some other check, found
something wrong with them, you would pull them back.
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
]Mr. MuNDT. So, so far as checks are concerned, you would eliminate
the home front?
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
However, I want to add that we have checked through the records
now of the F. B. I. over C3,0()0 of these cases, and we have the checks
on practically all of them at the moment, so that there is not mucli
question about it, and those are sui)plied to the projects.
If there is any bad history there at all, a stop is put up.
Mr. MuxDT. Yesterday you were going to look up a certain matter
for us; you were not exactly suie whether the home check had beeu
made in the city of Los Angeles: of its employees.
Have you made that check?
Mr. JNIyer. I have not had a cbance to do that, Mv. Mundt. Part
of that is involved in some of those letteiv that we have not filed yet.
9696 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. Let me read again the last two sentences of the At-
torney General's letter, dated September 25, 1942, signed by Francis
Biddle.
Many of the persons involved in this program will not have records of such
activity but may, on the other hand, be involved in other illegal or improper
conduct wliich would bear careful investigation. Consequently provision will
have to be made by you to cover this aspect of the matter.
In response to that mandate, yon instigated four additional checks,
each of which was a matter of checking the record.
Mr. Mter. Mr. Chairman
Mr. MuNDT (interposing). The Attorney General says that does not
suffice because the files may not have any record of that activity.
You check the records of F. B. I. He says that would not suffice.
So you ask him to answer the questionnaire.
Then you say you check the police record of the camp, which the
Attorney General says will not disclose even subversive activities.
And the fourth is checking the records of these gentlemen, and you
are going to find out about that with the home employer.
Now, it is my feeling, Mr. Myer, with the Attorney General making
that statement and with the general attitude of the people around
the country, and our general knowledge of the fact, that simply look-
ing at a record, you are not going to find the dangerous saboteur or
espionage agent.
I think you will admit that some additional check would not only
contribute to the national security but also to the protection of the
loyal Japanese, for none of us are interested in the disloj^al element.
We want to protect the loyal men in the camps from violence and
abuse and oppression.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Mundt, if you were so concerned, so deeply con-
cerned about that, why didn't you ask Mr. Stripling to supply those
who he says are known saboteurs, or their records, for our files so that
we can check them up if they are out.
Mr. Mundt. I think we submitted a list of names to you yesterday.
Mr. Myer. You submitted a list of names yesterday with' no in-
formation ; nothing excepting a list of names and their addresses, and
asked us to check them against our files.
There was no indication in that list of names as to whether they
were dangerous or anything else, except the addresses, and in some
cases there were no addresses.
I have not yet — and I want to repeat — had submitted by this com-
mittee any indication of any kind, except through the newspai^ers,
that they have information that is of any value to us and I will not
iiave until it is submitted with the facts.
So I repeat, if you are so concerned about the policy that we are
following, and our procedure, why don't you insist that representa-
tives of your committee who are on the i)ay roll of this conmiittee
produce what they say they have in the way of evidence, instead of
talking about it to the newspapers?
Mr. Mundt. Even Mr. Stripling's list, Mr. Myer, is not going to
include all of the potential saboteurs.
Mr. Myer. Does it include any of them ?
Mr. Mundt. Now, by your statement
Mr. Myer (interposing). He did not say "potential." He said
"there are many."
UN-AMERICAN PROPAG.\NDA ACTIVITIES 9697
Mr. MuNDT. Actual.
Mr. Myi:r. Dangerous saboteurs.
Mr. MuNDT. But even his list does not include them all.
Mr. Mter. Does it include any ?
Mr, Muxdt. I presume so.
Mr. Myeii. How many?
Mr. Mundt. I do not know. I do not know whether they are
actual saboteurs.
Mr. JklYER. Well, it seems to me that you, as a member of the com-
mittee, Mv. INIundt, might look into the matter and ask that we be
supplied with those lists, with designations as to which ones are
saboteurs, so that we can cany out our responsibility.
]Mr. Mundt. We have on our staff four or five investigators, and
you say you have 150 ;
Mr. Myer (interposing). But Mr. Stripling was the only one
quoted on that particular hearing.
Mr. Mundt. What is that?
Mr. ISIyer. Except that his quote was picked up and requoted
many times.
]Mr. Mundt. That does not answer the question whether or not
you believe that something in addition to a record check should have
been made in answer to the very definite mandate of the Attorney
General under date of September 25, that he felt was insufficient.
Mr. jMyer. I am simply pointing out in all other places we have
secured information, except the Dies committee information, who
said they had information, and who have not yet supplied it, and
I think if they have it they have been remiss in not supplying it.
Mr. ISIuNDT." Have you checked up with the F. B. I. ?
Mr. Myer. We have.
Mr. Mundt. Well, we have checked it with the F. B. I. because
the F. B. I. investigators have access to those files.
We are constantly in contact with them. So whether or not you
know it, you have the information.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, I called INIr. Hoover's office and asked
them whether they had been supplied with a list.
They asked me to ask the Dies committee.
Mr. Costello. The fact is that the committee is not taking their
records out of the files and sending them around town, but the files
have been available to the F. B. I. and their representatives have
come down and obtained whatever information they wished to ob-
tain, and I am quite certain any information concerning activities of
dangerous Japanese that may be contained in the files of the com-
mittee's office have been available to the F. B. I.
Mr. jMyer. Well, I am very delighted to hear that. That relieves
my mind very greatly, because I have been concerned about the
statement of Mr. Stripling since we had not been supplied with that
information.
Mv. TnoiMAS. That is not the only statement you will be delighted
to hear. You are going to be concerned with a lot more before you
get through.
Mr. Myer. Go right ahead.
Mr. Thomas. It is just a silly social experiment you are con-
ducting.
9698 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Myer. Mr. Mundt, may I go back to your question?
We feel that up to this time we have done a reasonably good job
in the administration of the relocation centers, in the administration
of the leave program.
We have no apologies to make. We have made mistakes which
we have admitted freely, when the opportunity presented itself. If
this committee has recommendations to make as to how we can better
our checks and still get the job done, in light with what you think
is sound policy, we would be glad to have it.
I would like to have the committee keep in mind the statement I
read this morning about the legal situation. I would like to have
the committee keep in mind, in submitting names of people that you
feel should go back to the centers, if it is decided that they should go
back, that we want evidence, if they are real dangerous, because of
the possibility of habeas corpus proceedings' that might develop under
those conditions.
Now, Congressman Thomas has a perfect right to his opinion about
this being a silly social experiment. I have no issue with a man who
wants to hold that kind of an opinion.
I want to point out that even though it was implied, that Congress-
man Thomas has not visited any of the relocation centers to our
knowledge up to this moment, and all the information he has is what
he has obtained here this morning and what he has gained from the
newspapers or from investigations of this committee.
Mr. Thomas. I have a recommendation to make, and that recom-
mendation is made as the result of investigations conducted by mem-
bers of the Dies committee in practically all of the camps.
This is just my own personal recommendation, and I would like to
hear from you, though, what you think of it.
That recommendation is that we take the administration of these
camps out of your hands and place them in the hands of the Army;
what do you think about that?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Congressman, that is a matter for the Executive and
the Congress to decide. I am perfectly willing to stand on our rec-
ord. It will do no good for me to argue with you here, I believe,
about the soundness' of our procedure.
You seem to have your mind made up before this hearing was even
started, and it certainly has been made up before it is concluded and
before the facts are all brought before the committee.
Under those conditions, I see no reason why I should personally
argue with you about your recommendation.
I want to repeat, gentlemen, that the matter of administration is a
matter that should be determined by the Congress of the United
States, or the Executive, or jointly, and I am not the one to deter-
mine that.
As long as I am Director of this Authority I am going to carry
out the program as I honestly feel that it should be done in the inter-
ests of the United States of America, not only from the standpoint
of the present program, but from the standpoint of the future prob-
lem that it may cause.
Mr. CosTELLO. HaA''e you had any chance, Mr. Myer, to take that
list of names and check it; the evacuees released from the centers?
Mr. Myer. No ; I have not had a chance to get all of that inf orma-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9699
tion together, Mr. Costello. I am sorry. There was a lot of infor-
mation to be gathered up, and I will try and supply it later in the
day, but it takes time to get it. When I got back to the office last
night it was late and the staff was gone, and it was only a short time
this morning after the office opened that I had any opportunity, so
I will attempt to get some of that information together as soon as
possible.
Mr. Costello. The committee will stand in recess at this time until
2 : 30.
("Wliereupon, the committee recessed from 1 : 30 to 2 : 30 p. m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
TESTIMONY OF DILLON S. MYEE— Eesumed
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Chairman, before we start the meeting, I would
like to explain for the benefit of the record and the press that after
the meeting this noon I had a conference with Mr. Myer and I had
understood him to say that Mr. Hoover had stated that the Dies
committee would not make available information in their possession.
He assured me that he had not said that; that I misunderstood
him.
]Mr, Myer. That is correct.
Mr. Mundt. And that the record, therefore, should show that the
F. B. I. has always had, and has constantly had access to the com-
plete files of the Dies committee, and keeps from two to three liaison
officers over there all the time and consequently the information
which the Dies committee has on the Japanese, and other subversive
groups, is available to the F. B. I. and through the F. B. I. to the
W. E. A.
And it is entirely conceivable that some of the highly commendable
F. B. I. activities in the camps of the W. E. A. have emanated from
the information which they have so acquired.
I think ]\Ir. Myer and all of us are equally interested in having
the record correct on that point.
Mr. Myer. I am very glad to have that statement, Mr. Chairman.
I M'ould like to add, if it had been made available to the F. B. I.,.
in line with the statement of Attorney General Biddle, and there are
any records indicating subversive activities on the part of these
people, it would be the responsibility of F. B. I. to supply that to us
as the basis for check against our files, and I presume that it is
being taken care of in that manner.
This was the first time that I was informed that the F. B. I. had
the records. I assume you were not just suppl3dng names. I assume
you were supplying the facts regarding the known saboteurs and
espionage agents, as was indicated in tlie press, and I shall inquire
of Mr. Hoover, by letter, asking if he has not supplied the names,
that he supply those names supplied to him by the committee and
by Mr. Stripling, in line with what was indicated in the press May 29.
I appreciate that very much.
9700 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. Mr. Myer, I believe at the close yesterday, you pre-
sented a statement regarding the testimony of Mr. Townsend. I
believe at that time you said there were about 39 points that you
particularly took exception to in his testimony. There are 37 listed
in your statement.
Mr. Myer. Well, I stated very frankly, Mr. Chairman, that I did
not count them myself. I took somebody else's word for it. If I
have been mistaken on the basis of tAvo, I Avould be glad to have the
record corrected on the basis of your statement. I think 37 is
enough, and we will not concern ourselves about the other two.
While we are on Mr. Townsend's statement, however, I would like
to clear up the matter that you mentioned yesterday. It was my
opinion at the time that I gave this information yesterday, that Mr.
Townsend did leave the project without permission of the acting
project director.
On further check, I telephoned last night to Mv. Empie an.d he
states it is true that Mr. Townsend left the project with his permis-
sion on Mr. Townsend's request for a 2-day leave to take his wife
home from the hospital.
Mr. Empie said that Mr. Townsend, he thought, was going to Los
Angeles, because that was listed as his home, and in another statement
by Mr. Townsend made on December 1, he told Mr. Head that he
had gone to Los Angeles. He had taken a car to Parker and gotten
a ride to Los Angeles, which was my basis for the statement for the
record.
I might have known better than to accept Mr. Townsend's state-
ment. I am sorry for it.
As to the further statement that Mr. Townsend was not authorized
to take a Government car to drive to Oklahoma, which he did, it
was not known that this was done until the bills began to come in
which he had sent back for gasoline and oil for that trip which he
took on personal business, in a Government car.
I think that pretty well clears up this phase of the record.
Mr. CosTELLO. I understood that had been made a matter of testi-
mony before the committee in Los Angeles.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have a copy of that statement before you ;
of the 37 points ?
Mr. Myer. I supplied it for the record yesterday.
Mr. Costello. Do you have a copy in your own files ?
Mr. Myer. Let me see ; I think 1 have a copy. I may have laid it
aside, because I thought we had supplied it for the record.
Mr. Costello. Referring to the first page there, in the second
paragraph, you make the statement:
There is scarcely a page of this testimony that does not contain one or more
false, misleading, or exaggerated statements.
When you made that statement, did j^ou mean on every page of
the testimony there was something false and also something mislead-
ing and also something exaggerated ?
Mr. Myer. It means that — it means what it says. There were very
few pages, if any, that did not have some exaggeration, some mis-
information, or some false statements.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9701
Mr. CosTEixo. In other words, every page contains all three of
those items?
Mr. Myer. No. I think if you will read it again, it says "or," "one
or more false, misleading, or exaggerated statements," JNIr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. The whole testimony, for example, could be 80 pages
without a single falsehood in it and your statement still be correct?
Mr. Myer. Yes ; but you will recall there were 37 in the statement,
according to our testiuKmy.
Mr. CosTELLO. "Well, I thought I would like to check that up with
you briefly here.
Also on the front page, you make the comment as you do later on
regarding his testimony, as to being in the war. That also was cleared
up in our liearing in Los Angeles, as to his activities, and it was indi-
cated that he was a Y. M. C. A. secretary and not a member of the mili-
tary forces.
Mr. Mytr. The facts are that he was not a Y. M. C. A. secretary dur-
ing the war.
Mr. CosTEixo. But he was over in France at that time.
Mr. Myer. Not until 1936 ; after the war, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLo. I do not recall just what the hearing specifically
showed on that, but the matter was cleared up by the various witnesses
that ap})eared there.
Mr. Myer. I might say that we have documentary facts on that
from every source possible, and we have complete documentation on it.
Mr. Costello. On page 2 the statement is made :
On June 18, 1943, when the subcommittee visited the Poston center, the project
director, having reviewed Townsend's testimony, asked for the privilege of
making a statement on it for the record. The subcommittee refused to hear him.
I might state that at the time we started hearings in Los Angeles, a
request was made for Mr. Head to appear and Mr. Head was not pres-
ent at the center at that time; I believe he would not return until
Friday of the first week of our hearings.
When we were down to the center he requested at that time the pos-
sibility of being heard. We only heard one or two witnesses there at
that luoment and had in mind the possibility of hearing Mr. Head
back here in Washington. As a matter of fact, we wired to Mr. Head
a couple of days ago. inquiring whether he might be able to be back
here for our hearings tomorrow and make himself available on Thurs-
day.
He said it would not be possible for him to be here, so I merely
wanted to point out for the purposes of the record that it was not our
intention not to hear Mr. Head, but we did want to make it possible
for him to appear, if he so desired.
I would like to go through these different items with you now.
The first question was regarding the Army. I think we have cleared
that up pretty well, with the statement that he was in the Army ac-
tually was false ; but, as I stated, it was corrected before the committee
out there.
The second one was in regard to his ?i;atement — in answer to the
question, '"Do they have a hospital in Poston?"
He said :
They liave a very fine hospital, a very lai'ge hospital, modern in every resjiect,
large enough to handle approximately 600 people and it is usually filled.
9702 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Your comment is :
The official rated capacity of Poston General Hospital is 250 beds with 120 beds
available for occupancy.
I might state that the committee made a personal visit to the center
and visited the hospital and went through it rather thoroughly; in
fact, I think we spent more time in the hospital than any other single
unit, so that the committee was not misinformed by his statement as
to the size of the hospital.
We realize, of course, all through his testimony, that when h6 was
testifying regarding matters that did not come under his jurisdiction,
that he was not the proper man to give us correct information on it,
but, rather, to get that from the head of the particular activity, the
person who had direct charge of that particular activity.
As to how much food they had, he said :
We, by actual count, supplied 58 tons of subsistence a day.
Your comment there is that —
During the month of December 1942 — the last month when Mr. Townsend was
on duty at the project — the average quantity of food delivered to evacuees mess
halls was 27 tons per day. The evacuee population in the center at that time
was approximately 18,000.
Mr. Mter. Just half the amount,
Mr. CosTELLO. It is interesting all through the testimony that we
had in Los Angeles, in interrogating the other project directors, for
instance, almost invariably they made the statement that Mr. Town-
send was inclined to exaggerate, but they also commented on the fact
that he was reliable and, if I remember, they also made the statement
that he was a good worker; that as far as his work was concerned,
there had not been great complaint.
And I think you will find all through here, in the various state-
ments, that almost without exception, the fundamental facts are sub-
stantially correct, even though he might have exaggerated regarding
specific details.
Mr. Myer. Excepting for 37 misstatements, according to your rec-
ord, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. These are the 37 which you selected.
On page 2, item 4, he was asked this question :
The amount of the food and the type of food was determined by the W. R. A. in
Washington ; is that correct?
Answer. Largely so ; yes, sir.
Your comment is :
During the period when Mr. Townsend was on duty at the Poston relocation
center, supervision over the requisitioning of food by the center was exercised by
the regional office of the War Relocation Authority in San Francisco, Calif.
Since January 1943, similar supervision has been exercised by the Washineton
office.
It is quite evident there that Mr. Townsend was neither exag-
gerating nor falsifying, nor was he misleading, because at the time
he testified his statement was absolutely correct by your own com-
ment, that since January the W. R. A. office in Washington was exer-
cising that supervision.
At the time he was at the center that supervision was not exer-
cised in the center.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9703
Mr. Myer. That is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. But through the San Francisco oflBce.
Mr. Myer. But not by the Washington office.
Mr. CosTELLo. But in the main, the statement is very definitely
accurate.
Mr. Myp:r. It depends on what you call "accurate", Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. I did not hear what you said.
Mr. Myer. I say, it depends on what you call accurate. It was not
exercised in the Washington office of the W. R. A.
Mr. MuNDT. Who is in control of the San Francisco offic6 ?
Mr. ]Myer. At that time, Mv. E. P. Fryer, who was regional
director.
Mr. MuNDT. Was that under your supervision ?
Mr. Myer. It was a regional office. We had direct responsibility
for the six areas at that time. It was not a staff office as in existence
now.
Mr. IMuxDT. They did not create their own policy, did they ?
Mr. Mi-ER. They did, up to a certain point ; yes. During the time
these centers were developing, in relation to these matters, and had
the authority to do so in relation to some matters until. the policy was
decided here and taken over bj'' the Washington office.
As a matter of fact, it was our major operating office up until
December, as far as projects were concerned.
]\Ir. MuNDT. Then it is your position that Mr. Townsend was falsi-
fying because he alleged that the San Francisco office was under the
control of the AVashington office ?
Mr. Myer. Xo ; that is not my position.
Mr. MuNDT. What is your position ?
Mr. Myer. My p"osition is that he made a misstatement when he said
that it was controlled by Washington. It was controlled by San
Francisco.
Mr. CosTELLO. But at the time he made the statement before the
committee he was correct ?
Mr. Myer. That is right, but he was referring to his regime at
Boston, and at that time it was not correct;
Mr. Costello. But it was not controlled at the center, and that is
the information we were trying to get.
Mr. Myer. Well, the general policy was controlled there.
I might add that the rationing provisions which were put into effect
in that area of the O. P. A. were in effect from November on, and if
there was a waste of tons of food as charged by Mr. Townsend, it was
because he was not following the policy, and because he was not
reliable in handling his job.
Mr. Costello. As a matter of fact, that was one of the things we
brought out; if there was a waste of food, it probably lay at Mr.
Townsend's own door.
Mr. Myer. I should think you would agree, though, you would not
consider him reliable if that was going on under his supervision.
Mr. Costello. Yes. The fifth item here refers to the placement
of—
emergency food in secret cellars, under the mess halls for the invasion armies
and parachute troopers.
9704 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
I think we will concede that that was not a correct statement; at
least, we did not find any food in the desert ; maybe because we did
not make a search for it.
Mr. Myer. It made a good news story.
Mr. CosTELLO. You also find this statement in item 6 :
At numerous times we had these thieves caught, and produced evidence and
information about tlie process of the entire thieving ring. The matter was
placed before Mr. Empie and Mr. Head and Mr. Gelvin and the military-police
authorities, and it was always stopped, because there was no way that they
could see that we would be benefited by trying to prosecute them.
You make the comment there :
Records of the Poston internal security office indicate that Mr. Townsend
made only three complaints about what he considered illegal activities within
the project area.
1 presume that the comment, therefore, is correct regarding that.
No. 7 refers to the quality of the food. I think we went into that
very thoroughly out there on the coast, so that any statement he may
have made, right or wrong, from all the evidence presented, unques-
tionably gave the committee definite information, and I think gave
the public too^ in view of the various news releases, a rather accurate
picture as to what was done in the centers regarding food. No. 8 :
Were the Japanese served ice cream at Poston ?
Answer. Yes, sir ; we had ice cream brought to us every day from the Golden
State Creamery Co.
Then you have a comment submitted from the steward at Poston :
No ice cream has ever been purchased with Government funds for evacuees.
Ice cream received at Poston is paid for in one of the following ways :
1. It is purchased by the community stores, using evacuee funds, for resale
to evacuees.
2 Small quantities were purchased occasionally for the personnel mess during
the summer of 1942. The personnel mess is operated as a Government mess, and
its expenses are paid by employees.
This matter of ice cream was mentioned in our hearings. No par-
ticular importance was laid on it, because it seemed a very indifferent
matter.
Item No. 9 reads:
Question. And milk?
Answer. Milk orders ran from 8,000 to 12,000 quarts of milk, homogenized milk,
every day.
The statement unquestionably was reasonably accurate when he
said there were between 8,000 to 12,000 quarts of milk used there
every day, in view of the fact that they at least ran up to 9,000, and
the average was around 6,000 quarts.
As a matter of fact, even if there were a total of 12,000, it would
not be an excessive amount of milk.
The tenth item :
Question. And butter?
Answer. We had the finest grade of Challenge butter and other high-grade
butter that we could buy.
At the time that Townsend was at the center, his reply to that ques-
tion then was correct, was it not?
Mr. Myer; That is something that was not supplied to us by the
Poston center. I presume they all buy butter ; yes.
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9705
Mr. CosTELLO. The statement is that up to January 1943 they con.
tmued to purcliase butter.
Mr. MvEK. Well, that seems to be correct ; that is right.
The implication is, though, that they are continuing to purchase
the finest butter; but I was simply stating \\'hat the policy has been
since January.
Mr. Cqstello. In item No. 10, the inference was that they were
contimiing to do it, even though they had not done it after January.
You see, Mr. Townsend was testifying regarding the time he was
at the center; so you criticize the statement in one place, because he
is testifying to something that was subsequent to his being there, and
now you are criticizing him for something that was done while he was
there.
Mr. ISIyer. We reserve the same right as some other people, Mr.
Chairman, to be inconsistent, and I am sorry.
Mr. Costello. Then he goes into some knowledge, in No. 11, in
regard to the meat situation, where he referred to the finest cuts to
be bought on the open market.
I think we have gone into that rather thoroughly, that the meat
supply in the centers, generall}^ seemed to be quite adequate, and
the food supplies that were furnished the people were appropriate,
and that the meat, as you have testified, was third grade beef rather
than No. 1.
No. 12 again refers to the disposition of the garbage, and he went
into quite some extensive statement regarding the fact that up until
January 30 there was nothing done at all regarding the idea of
obtaining hogs for the purpose of disposing of the garbage in that
manner.
As to what was done with that, he made this answer :
It was taken — we would load it on to equipment and dig ditches and thi'ow
It into the ditches and cover it up.
Question. What happened with i-eterence to the idea of feeding it to the hogs?
And his answer was :
Up until January 30 there was nothing done at all. About January 30
Wasl)ington wrote the director and asked him how many hogs they had to use
the 9 or 10 tons of garbage that we had in the camp, and we had been out
trying to buj' hogs, but we had every hog in Southern California — through this
same group tliat was building tiiis $2rj,000.000 corporation, we had every hog
j!arm and every cattle farm tabulated, and we knew all the hogs available,
so he had this hog man check the hogs, and at the time the letter was received
there wasn't a hog in the camp. They then, without any knowledge on the
part of tlie supply department, ordered in 2(X» 200-pound hogs, and they answered
Washington by telling them that we had 2(X) hogs.
I WMuld like to enlarge a little bit upon that. If you know anything about
hogs, you know you wouldn't want to start fe(>ding 200-pound hogs. They are
ready for market. They bought 200-pound hogs and paid 2.T cents a pound for
tlr m. The same herd of hogs, as listed in the market, could have been bought
for 17 cents a pound, and they were hogs that we were considering buying
for butchering for pork. They were too old to be hand'ed for feeders, and
that order should have been for hogs that would have cost $10 to $1."), to feed
the garbage to, instead of paying 25 cents a nound. Now they have tiiis
number of hogs down there, weigiiing 300 to 400 pounds, and they are not fit
for anything except lard.
Then your comment :
During D.'cember 1042, pnrsuai i to a general policy adopted by the War Re-
location Authority on December 3. 1042, step.:; were taken to establish a swine
9706 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
project at the Poston center. Three hundred pigs were purchased J<iiiuary 13,
1943, in accordance with standard Government procurement procedure. The pigs
averaged 145 pounds each ; since then 825 more pigs, averaging 115 pounds each,
have been purchased. All were garbage broke, double vaccinated feeder pigs.
The statement there of Mr. Townsend there was, in the main, quite
correct, was it not, as to the disposition of the garbage ?
Mr. Mter. It looks as if it were.
Mr. CosTELLO. There was some question as to the weiglit of the pigs
at the time of purchase, as well as the price.
The indication was that 25 cents a pound was paid for the pigs at
the time of purchase, although the committee was unable to get the
actual facts from any other witness as to a specific price or the specific
weights of the pigs.
However, prior to the purchase of those hogs, namely, from April
until January 13. the disposition of the garbage was in the manner
designated by Mr. Townsend, namely that ditches were dug and it was
buried ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Myer, As far as I know, that was correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. The thirteenth item has to do with warehouses.
Mr. Townsend testified there were 180 warehouses. .
Your comment is :
There were 90 warehouses on the entire pro.iect including G at the Parker
railhead.
And then, the fourteenth item is :
Question. How many Japanese were employed in the warehouses?
Answer. Two thousand seven hundred, believe, in the — now, wait a minute.
In the warehouses ; no. I think there were
Question. An approximation will be all right.
Answer. There were 680 Japanese and 4 white supervisors in the warehouses.
And your account is :
The maximum number of Jaiianese ever to be employed in the warehouses was
300.
Those emplovees were the only ones employed in the warehouses;
those 300?
Mr. Myer. That is the statement that we have from Poston by the
folks.
Mr. CosTELLO. That does not include any persons handling trucking
back and forth from Parker?
Mr. Myer. All I know is what it says here, Mr. Chairman. We
got this information from the administration folks at Poston, and ire
simply passing it on as we received it.
Mr. CosTELLO. You do not know whether that 300 included the em-
ployees who were employed in handling and unloading freight cars?
Mr. Myer. I do not.
Mr. CosTELLO. And putting it in the warehouses ?
Mr. Myer. I think it does, but I could not be sure about that without
checking the facts.
Mr. CosTELLO. Item No. 15 refers to furniture.
Mr. Townsend made the statement :
Now, as for the furniture, of course, the Poston development includes a very
marvelous Caucasian personnel center. The plan showed 54 modern bungalows,
and two dormitories, three stories, one for women and one for men, and the
administration homes which would cost somewhere between 15 and 20 thousand
dollars. There were to be four of them, and a beautiful park area with swim-
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9707
ming pools and so forth. And this furniture was purchased for that purpose,
to furnish those. It was all bought from Barker Bros., and the prices on it
were not reasonable. They were vei'y, very hjgh in consideration of the many,
many carloads. We umst have had, oh, at least 20 carl^nds of that tyi>e of
furniture.
The comment is :
Quarters provided for the administrative staff at Poston include 8 four-room
cottages built during the initial construction period by the Army; 24 house-
keeping apartments of from two to six rooms in one-story barracks-type buildings
of temporary construction, similar to the theater-of-operations construction found
throughout the center ; and 15S rooms size 7 by 14 feet in barracks-type dormi-
tories. Each barracks dormitory contains a bathroom and from 10 to 12 rooms.
Was it the plan to build individual homes for the personnel in
charge of the camp, at the center ?
Mr. ]\1ter. It was not the plan ; it was proposed by the administra-
tive group at Poston but never approved by the War Relocation
Authority or by W. P. B.
There were, 1 believe, six buildings built by the Army at the time
the center was constructed, but there never was a plan to build addi-
tional buildings.
Mr. CosTELLO. There were plans to put in better quarters than the
temporary ones originally built ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Mter. Oh, yes ; that is right.
Mr. CosTELLO. And that is what ]Mr. Townsend had reference to,
because he said the plans showed 54 bungalows, and so on.
]\Ir. ^Iter. It is a little hard to believe what jNIr. Townsend did
have reference to, but we never had plans tliat showed 5-1: bungalows,
so far as the War Relocation Authority was concerned.
Mr. CosTELLO. The comment goes on :
In accordance with the customary practice in public or private projects in
such isolated locations as Poston, staff quarters are fitted with essential furni-
tui-e. Furniture for the quarters at Poston was not all purchased from Barker
Bros., but in fact was secured from a number of vendors, chiefly in Los Angeles
where the purchases were made by the Office for Emergency Management.
You do admit that furniture was purchased from Barker Bros.?
Mr. Mteb. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLo. Then you end up by saying :
All staff members pay rent to the Government i based upon the size and
character of accommodations furnished.
Do you know exactly what was purchased from Barker Bros.?
Mr." Mter. No ; but "l think we could supply that if it is germane
t3 the record. We would be very happy to take the time to get it.
AVe wotdd have to go back into the records to check it, though, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. It was our understanding that there was a consider-
able amount of furniture purchased that was not actually used and
was in the warehouse there and was not able to be put to use.
Mr. Myer. I will be glad to check into that because we have been
short of furniture in some other projects, and do wdiat we can in
getting it.
If ^-ou have any information to that effect, I wish you would let
us know.
Mr. CosTELLo. Item No. 16 deals with matters stored in the ware-
houses, other than food.
9708 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Townsend gave this answer :
There were supplies and equipment of every conceivable type in the numerous
warehouses. The Civilian Conservation Coiids had sent in hundreds of car-
loads of miscellaneous equipment. We had warehouses that we moved the
stuff into and locked up, and they hadn't been opened for months because it
was just miscellaneous equipment. We didn't know what it was.
Your comment was :
The Civilian Conservation Corps has not shipped in hiuidreds of carloads
of miscellaneous equipment. It is estimated that 2 miscellaneous carloads
(100,000 pounds) would hold all the surplus items, such as tools. The Civilian
Conservation Corps automotive equipment that had been received did not ex-
ceed, at the most, 10 carloads.
Mr, Myer. That is correct, according to our information.
Mr. CosTELLO. I do not know whether it is necessary to go through
all these on down the line or not. There is not much variation to
them.
There is apparently quite some question as to the trucks purchased
in Los Angeles and we had a great deal of testimony from the vari-
ous lieads concerning that matter.
Now, you criticize his comment of the Kibei or the police force
and the size of the force.
You went on to state that it was made up of Nisei, and then you
wound up by saying :
A few Kibei were taken in to each of the police departments as patrolmen,
particularly because of their ability to speak Japanese and to deal with some
of the older evacuees who had difficulty understanding English. These men
were picked very carefully and there has never been any indication that any .
of them were involved in trouble-making or subversive activities.
All the way through, as I read the comment you make on his testi-
mony, it is very seldom that you actually have a falsehood set forth
here.
At the most, there is exaggeration and it seems to me that instead
of pointing out 37 glaring defects in his testimony, you have simply
selected 37 items on which to expound your attitude regarding the
center rather than to criticize Townsend's testimony.
Mr. Myer. That is exactly what we tried to do in those portions
which you liave criticized, Mr. Chairman, in trying to get the state-
ment of policy into the record, as to wliat is being done at the center.
Mr. CosTitno. In other words, your purpose, then, in submitting
• this memorandum was not really for the purpose of criticizing Town-
send's testimony, but for the purpose of propagandizing and getting
materia] into the record?
Mr. Myer. Mv. Chairman, I thought this hearing was being con-
ducted in order to find out what the facts were in relation to the ad-
ministration of the war relocation program.
On that basis we submit this information for two reasons: One, to
supply information regarding the policy, on the one hand; and, on
the other hand, to discredit the testimony of a man who told at least
37 exaggerations, acording to your statement, if not 37 falsehoods.
Those are the two reasons Vvhy it was prepared ; yes, sir.
Mr. CosTELLO. My purpose in going through this was simply to
show, one by one, tliat actually they are not falsehoods; that funda-
mentally, the Townsend testimony is correct as to the facts contained
therein.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9709
As to the particular details, or the declaration he may have put
on the facts, this he may have exaggerated, or may have dramatized it
in his own Nvay, but fundamentaliy, the statement that he made was
verified by the testimony of subsequent witnesses.
He commented at some length regarding the police force at the
center, and he was rather critical in his testimony regarding the
police force.
As a matter of fact, how are the police equipped at the centers?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman
Mi-. CosTELLO (interposing). You might answer the question. How
are the police equipped at each of the centers?
Mr. ]\Iyi:r. ThQ police are equipped with badges, arm bands, night
sticks, usually, and in most cases, helmets marked "Police."
They are not allowed to have guns. Tliere are ample guns in
the haiids of the military police who are guarding generally the out-
side areas of the centers during the daytime, and are guarding the
important living quarters in the area in which they live at night.
Mr. CosTELLO. You mean the troops enter the center at night?
Mr. ]\Iyer. They get into the area immediately around the center
at night, according to the plan and agreement with the military.
Mv. CosTELLO. Actually, in view of the fact that they have an all-
Japanese police force at each of the centers, in time of strike or riot
or other trouble, your police force is totally inadequate and of no
value at all ; is that not correct ?
Mr. MyI'R. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a statement for the
record as to what our arrangements are in regard to the military.
Mr. CosTET.Lo. I would like to have you answer the question rather
than make a statement.
Mr. Myer. I will answer the question rather than what ?
Ml-. Co-^iELLo. I would like to have you directly answer the ques-
tion itself rather than make a statement.
Mr. Myer. It is the responsibility of the military to guard the
exterior boundaries of the area of the projects during the daytime;
10 guard the exterior of the imi)ortant living quarters during the
night, both as to people who go in and come out of the center.
It is also their responsibility when called upon by the War Reloca-
tion Authority, when trouble arises, to come into the center, and when
they do. they take charge.
'Fhe rest of the responsi])ility for the internal security of tlie pro-
gram is a War Relocation Aiitliority respcmsibility.
AVc have a policy in effect that pi-ovides that there shall be, if avail-
able, five a])[)ointed i^ersonnel supervising the police force at the
Centers, whose responsibilities are to train, supervise, and to handle
the relationshi|)s with tlie outside agencies — i)ard(m mc — ti'ain, super-
vise, and generally handle the policies on internal security
Mr. CosTEELo. Let me interrupt
^Ir. Myer. Supervising evacuee police, that is, internal policy.
Mr. CosTEi.EO. Do yo\i mind if I interrupt to ask j^ou to answer my
question?
Mr. ]Myp:r. I am answering your question.
Mr. CosTELLO. I am sorry.
The question 1 asked. I believe, was. (^f what value is the ])olice force
in case of strike, riot, or verj^ serious trouble? And so far your re-
62626— 43— vol. 15 56
9710 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
marks have been directed to the press or the audience, and you have
not answered the question, so I assume you are not intending to.
Mr. Myer. I feel the police force has an effect, depending on what
ihe considerations are.
We have had an evacuee police force that was not very valuable
during the strike riots, in the one serious riot we had in Manzanar.
The military police were called in.
In the Poston riot, so-called, which we called a strike, the military
police were not called in,
Mr. Chairman, if that answers your question, I would like to make
a statement for the record in relation to Mr. Townsend's testimony, if
you please. May I?
Mr. CosTEULO. You might make that after we conclude the 37
points here.
Mr. Myer. All right. I hope there will be time for this statement
when w^e get through, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CosTELLO. The next is item 22 on page 11-A.
Question by the chairman :
Was there any produce raised around the camp and used there?
And the answer by the witness was :
There wasn't when I left there. If there was, it was put in there since.
And then your comment :
In addition to products harvested and used from 75 acres farmed witliin the
residential blocks between the barracks, there were 89,720 pounds of vegetables
harvested on the acreage farmed by the agricultural division up to January
1, 1943.
That, I presume, was up to the time that Townsend was at the
project?
Mr. Myer. Townsend left, I believe, on December 26.
Mr. CosTELLO. Therefore that is the only part of the comment
that is directed to Mr. Townsend's testimony.
Mr. Myer. Well, let me say this
Mr. CosTELLO (interposing). Which works out to 40 tons of vege-
tables, and I believe the rate of consumption of food in your com-
ment was 27 tons jier day. Therefore, the 40 tons is not a consider-
able amount of produce and, hence, I think his statement is quite
accurate that there was not any produce raised there.
Materially, there wasn't anything in quantity.
The statement then goes on :
Since that time, agricultural production has bfen increased so that on June 1,
1943, there was a total of 228 acres being farmed in addition to the acreage in
the blocks. The June 1 report shows a total of 901.S96 pounds of IG different
types of vegetables harvested by the Agricultural Department.
That, of course, works out to around 450 tons and is iiot a great
amount of produce, as far as the consumption there is concerned.
The twenty -third item refers to Mr. Townsend's description of the
strike at Poston.
I notice in your comment you make the statement :
However, it should be pointed out that there was no riot at Poston, no vio-
lence or destruction of Govenunent property, and no liarni to Caucasian employ-
ees or their families.
UN-AMEUIC.\N PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9711
You were very careful, always, to refer to it as a strike whenever
the camp superiors made any reference to it.
At the bottom of the page, your comment is :
Immediate cause of the strike and demonstration was the arrest of two
evacuees suspected of having be;iten other evacuees. Leaders of the striking
evacuees insisted that the two held were innocent, that they were hold more
than 72 hours without charges, and that they should be given a trial imder
the regulations of the community council.
Actually, in the judgment of competent observei'S who have investigated the
strike thoroughly, the protest about the arrest of the two evacuees was merely
the immediate cause of the disturbance which had its origin in many cases,
among them bitterness resulting from evacuation, inability of the Authority to
provide school buildings, heating stoves for the barracks, and other facilities
which had been promised at the time of evacuation, frustration resulting from
the discomforts of camp life, and other similar causes.
Agitation by actual pro-Japae.ese i)ersons may have contributed, but there is
no evidence that it was a particularly important factor in the incident.
You comment on the bitterness resulting from evacuation. Was it
not true that at the original time of evacuation, there was not any
bitterness on the part of the Japanese people generally because of
the orders to evacuate their homes ?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, I was not present at that time and I do
not feel that I am competent to give first-hand knowledge on that.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you know what promises w-ere made at the time
of evacuation regarding facilities that were going to be furnished
to the evacuees ?
Mr. Myer. I know some of the promises that were made; yes.
One of the promises, of course, was that they would have minimum
living quarters with heat, which had not at that time been supplied
at Poston.
Mr. CosTELLO. You do not know who made those promises, do
3'ou ?
Mr. Myer. The War Department. And then, later on, the W. R. A.
It was up to the War Department to supply the stoves and the
basic equipment for the centers. I am not critical because they didn't
do it. It was one of those times when it was hard to secure that
type of equipment. We were late in getting much of our equipment;
nevertheless, the evacuees did not know what the problem was and
it did not enter into their attitude.
Mr. CosTELLO. On page 13, you have a statement signed by 61
employees and members of employees' families, who lived at Poston
camp tliroughout the strike.
May I ask when that statement was obtained?
Mr! Myer. What page is that, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. CosTEixo. It appears on page 13.
Mr. Myer, I can't give you the answer to that.
Most of this information was obtained by us from Poston fol-
lowing their procuring the testimony of Mr. Townsend from your
investigator. We asked them to supply the facts on which this
statement was built.
Mr. CosTELiX). So that the vtirious employees, who are all employed
by W. R. A., signed this statement ?
Mr. Myer. Xo: they are not employed by W. R. A, June 14 is
the exact date.
9712 UN-AMERICAJSr PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. CosTELLO. You state [reading] :
The following statement was signed by 61 employees and members of em-
ployees' families who lived at Poston camp I throughout the strike.
Mr. Myer. These people are employed by the Indian Service, who
were handling that project under the Indian Service supervision, but
under W. K. A. policies.
Mr. CosTELLO. Technically, their pay comes from W. R. A. tlirough
the Indian Service ?
Mr. Myer. Indirectly.
Mr. CosTELLO. So they are em})loyees of the project.
Mr. Myer. Employees of the project ; that is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. The statement refers to various other instances in
here, such as the comment on the milk-truck incident, in which ap-
parently, or at least a case or two of milk was seized by the Japanese
and dumped.
And when it comes to the question of the fire, the great unit of the
fire department, again we find that the fire chief was set upon by
the Japanese there, showing that the fundamental facts of Mr.
Townsend's testimony are correct.
Then there follows the item dealing with the Japanese flag, which
we went into at quite some length at our hearings. Indication was
that some of the banners used in the blocks to designate the blocks,
were white flags, with the numerals of the block in red in the center.
Mr. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. CosTELLO. The numerals were put in the center of the flag in
such a manner as to simulate the rising sun, the insignia of Japan, and,
as the result, could have easily been confused by people at a distance,
who would see them, into thinking that they were Japanese flags.
'Wlien we were at the project — you make the comment here that there
were two flags in camp No. 1 — I only recall having seen one.
Has there been any attempt made to use the flag as a part of the
Americanization of Japanese at the centers?
Mr. Myer. Yes. Mr. Chairman. I am not sure about Poston, but
at practically every center the flag ceremony and the raising and the
lowering of the flag is carried on, generally by the Boy Scouts, who
take the responsibility for carrying out the flag ceremony.
Mr. CosTELLO. Let us take a look at item No. 30.
About 12 o'clock midnight on the third day of mob control about 200 of the
mob advanced to the motor pool, where they reached the highway across from the
pool. They were halted by the military police and advised Ihey were not allowed
to cross the highway. Tiiey starte.l to move forward, and the military police
fired over their heads. His orders were to fire over their heads, and then into
them. He was at once supported by another military police with a machine
gini. The mob had advanced in regular military wedge formation stopped, and
in a few minutes the entire military police company was there in trucks with
fixed bayonets ready for action. The Japs retreated.
* * * Standing behind the military police, seeing the determined look and
the immediate response of his buddies, all heavily armed, and the angry mob
facing their first set-back, defiant and ugly, but still without a leader, make
things look pretty near a crisis.
Your comment indicates that at least six or eight Japanese had gone
out with the idea of getting the truck and the military police did stop
them, and that they did fire some shots.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9713
So, ajiain, it indicates very definitely that the statements by Mr.
Townsend are fundamentally correct, and the series of subsequent testi-
mony received verifies those fundamental facts.
There is quite a little conunent regarding the two persons who were
injured and put in the hospital.
At the bottom of page 20 you make the comment :
The following information is taken from the records of the hospital concerning
all patients submitted to the hospital as a result of the beatings in question.
Then you name seven persons.
Then you make the following comment : One laceration of the scalp,
October 18; laceration of herid, contusion of body, November 1; con-
cussion of brain, multiple lacerations, November 15 ; laceration of hand,
November 15; laceration of skull, November 15; neurosis due to fear,
November 22 ; contusion of head and face, laceration of hand, January
31.
That indicates that at least seven persons were beaten up or received
injuries of that character at the center.
What is the reason, or what reasons have you heard for these beat-
ings taking place over in the center?
Mr. IMyer. I have heard all kinds of reasons put forward, Mr. Chair-
man, depending upon who did the speculating as to why beatings were
continued or conducted. I might say that those beatings did continue
throughout the ])eriod you mentioned until, with the help of the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation, I think seven aliens, and I believe five
citizens, were arrested for the beating of Saburo Kido, some time about
the period that the last period was mentioned.
Since that time, so- far as I know, there have been no beatings at
Poston. There may have been, bitt they haye not been reported
tome.
Mr. CosTELLO. So far as you know, all of those responsible have been
apprehended ?
Mr. Mter. Well, at least it stopped following the apprehending of
the group of people that I mentioned, about the period that is men-
tioned there.
Mr. CosTELLO. You comment about the use of the gasoline and the
trucks. That was his own responsibility, so anything he said about
that was actually criticism of himself and his own administration.
Mr. Mter. Yes.
Mr. CosTELi.o. Then, of course, your comment winds up regarding
the use of equipment for trips and so forth by the evacuees. You
comment that they are not allowed to use Government cards for any
cars whatsoever unless there is special authorization and a Caucasian
present to escort them for that i)urpose.
Again you take the opportunity to comment on Mr. Townsend's
trip to Oklahoma without the knowledge or permission of the project
director, as you have done before.
It seems to me that the whole purpose of your comment which you
make here is not so much to discredit Mr. Townsend's testimony, not
to point out faults in his testimony, but simply to give you an oppor-
tunity to comment entirely about the W. R. A. and its program; is
that correct?
Mr. Myer. I consider that a very legitimate objective, Mr. Chair-
man.
9714 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
I thought that was what we were interested in having here, com-
ments about the W. R. A. and its program, which we had not had
an opportunity to coimtnent on before yesterday before this committee.
Mr. CosTELLO. Would it not be better to make an out-and-out com-
ment regarding the situation?
Mr. Mter. Had we had the opportunity to do so, we would have
been delighted to do so, but in view of the fact
Mr. CosTELLO. Rather than commenting about the W. R. A. and its
program ?
Mr. Myer. In view of the fact, Mr. Chairman, that these state-
ments were released to the press on June 10, having been made on
May 26, without an opportunity for either ourselves or the project
director to comment on them, after he saw the record, we felt it was
essential and we felt it was only fair to the public and to the United
States to know what the facts are in relation to these policies as well
as to the type of witnesses that were brought before the committee, in
order to present supposedly the facts regarding "W. R. A.
May I read my statement now ?
Mr. CosTELLO. I merely want to comment that the witnesses in the
main were persons who had been employed at the center, and the
majority of them were actually employees at the center at the time
they were interrogated as witnesses.
Mr. Myee. There were three of them thnt had been employed at
the center who were not employed at the time for good reasons.
This statement is a conversation between W. Wade He:ul, project
director, and H. H. Townsend, on December 1, 1942. Tliis is a steno-
graphic transcript. December 1 was just at the end of the disturb-
ance at Poston I.
Mr. Head. Good morning, Mr. Townsend.
Mr. Townsend. Good morning. I just got your memorandum and want to
discuss it with you. Please let me apologize for my actions during the strike.
I must have been so upset I didn't realize what I was doing. I was afraid
that I and the other employees were going to be slaughtered by the Japs.
Mr. Head. Mr. Townsend, if you do not mind, I am going to have notes kept
on this conversation, inasmuch as your actions of the last few days have been
such that they cause me to doubt your honesty and reliability. Do you object?
Mr. Townsend. And I don't blame you for wanting a record of everything I
have to say.
Mr. Head. Now, Mr. Townsend, you said you were frightened; did you ac-
tually see, personally, any signs of violence on the part of the people or the
destruction of any Government property?
Mr. Townsend. Since having time to calm down I realize that there was no
sign of violence, and now that the trouble has been settled and I have had time
to look around, it is easy to see the crowd must have been peaceful all the
time and there was no sign .of any damage to any Government property.
Mr. Head. Do you consider that sufficient reason for leaving the project and
failing your duties during the time of trouble?
Mr. Townsend. I don't know what I meant. I lost my head, I guess. I would
have done more harm than good in that condition.
Mr. Head. I think you have done more harm than good here ever since you
came, and in the past few days it has been reported to me that you have been
frightened ever since arriving, and that you have always carried a gun.
Mr. Townsend. I think every employee here should be armed at all times.
Mr. Head. If you think that, you absolutely have no business woi-king here.
This is no place for cowards or unstable people. Besides, every Government
employee who places more importance on his own safety than his duty to the
Government is not fit to work for Uncle Sam. You were not only disloyal to
your job, you were disloyal to John Evans, and disloyalty was displayed before
"all the project employees when he was in charge and was working under tre-
mendous pressure. By the way, did you leave Poston in a Government car?
un-americajs: propaganda activities 9715
Mr. TowNSENi). Yes; I went to Pnrket in a Government car and from there
T canght a ride with a friend to Los Angeles.
Mr. Head. I am extremely disappointed to find we have had an employee work-
ing here like you. It is easy to understand why you might have become upset,
but I cannot understand why you became frightened and lied.
You had a resiMmsibility to the Govermnent to look after its property. We
have employed you in a responsible position and put our contidence in you
to carry out that job, then you fail completelj' ; and besides, look at the men
here with their families who were not afraid. Ralph's wife was here alone.
She had planned to go to Phoenix for the week end but when the sit-down strike
started, she immediately saw that her duty was here, and she stayed. She is
not a Government employee, but she is a loyal Americau. Other men and their
wives stayed with their children. To me, just at a time when you were most
needed, you absolutely failed. *
Mr. TowNSEM). I guess I can't blame you for feeling that way.
Sir. Head. I am sorry to say this, but never have I been so disappointed
with a fellow employee as I have been with you. Y"ou insisted that the Army
be called in, not because you thovight that was best, but because you were
afraid, "yellow" is a good word for it. That would have been an easy way to
settle this thing. Thank God, John Evans was not a coward. He displayed
real character when he refused to follow your and a few other crackpots' advice.
I want you and everyone else in the country to know that John Evans has
my complete confidence and backing in every decision he made while here. If
John had thought it was necessary to call the Army into Poston to protect Gov-
ernment ijroperty or human lives, he would have done so, but at no time did he
feel it was necessary.
You can see now, frnan events, that it wasn't. If the Army had come in, no
doubt there would have been some people shot. Oiir Government knew what
it was doing when it p>it these people here, and you know yourself that the
strike wasn't due to anybody in jail, but due to the fact we had failed to furnish
some of the minimum necessities of life to them, such as heating stoves and many
other items, and we would have been a bunch of cowards in taking advantage
of them by marching the Army in and having defenseless people shot.
There are a lot of reasons he could not outline to you why the Army should
not have been called in ; I think it is unnece.ssary in your case to do it. I
wnnt to point out that the Japanese have many thousands of American pris-
oners, and if anything happened here in which the Japanese would be shot
or otherwise hurt, retaliation would no doubt have been taken against the
various Americans held as Japanese prisoners.
Mr. TowNsEND. I see now that Evans was right ; he was level-headed.
Mr. He-ad. After your actions during this disturbance, as far as I'm con-
cerned, it is too late in the day for you to change. To be perfectly fair and
frank with you. I want yon to know you would not have been allowed to return
to this project had not John Evans recommended it to me, but I am convinced
in my own mind that it was a mistake.
Mr. TowNSEND. Would you like to have me hand in my resignation?
Mr. He.\d. Por.sonally, I think you should, but probably it will be better,
inasmuch as you are working with Empie. that you discuss the matter with
him. My personal feeling in this is that, although you might do a good job
in .some other position, you are too emotionally unstable to work on a project
like this. Anyone who will carry a gun, and who will go around trying to
frighten the employees by telling them they are not safe, has no business working
here.
Mr. TowNSEND. I wish you could have seen how upset and disturbed I was,
and I think you could see ray side.
Mr. Head. I have no more to say to you except this: You became emotionally
upset and unstable at the time .vour services were most needed, so you have
no business here. Mr. Townsend, in all the years I have worked.' you are
the first employee I have felt it was necessary to call a stenographer in to
take notes on the conversation, and you realize as well as I, why I feel this is
necessary. ,
Mr. Chairman, if yon feel as you say, that the Townsend evidence
is fitndamentally sonnd, I am really concerned about the rest of the
testimony and the findings of this committee, if that is the way the
committee feels about Mr. Townsend's evidence.
9716 UN-AMERICAJS' PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr, MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, in view of the last statement Mr. Myer
made, may I have it read?
]Mr. CosTELLO. Very AvelL
(Statement read by the reporter.)
Mr. MuNDT. Mr Myer, we, of the committee, were inclined to feel
that the people you employed at Post on had been carefully selected,
and the assumption of reliability rested with them.
Now, I am frank to admit that at the time I first read Mr. Town-
send's testimony, which was a long time after it was taken, and this
committee was in Los Angeles at the time, that I shared considerable
skepticism about some of the statements, and we interrogated the
witnesses appearing before us at some length about Mr. Townsend.
Mr. Empie, who impressed this committee as a very fine employee,
and who is presently employed at Poston, certainly gave every ap-
pearance and impression of being candid and seemed capable of doing
a good job. He was among those interrogated.
At page 245 of the hearings which were held at Los Angeles, we
asked Mr. Empie about his former associate, Mr. Townsend, and here
are some of the questions and answers from that particular conver-
sation :
Mr. Steedman. I believe you stated Mr. Townsend was evasive in discussing
his work vpith you?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Do you tliinlj that was due to the fact that he had difficulty
expressing himself?
Mr. Empie. No, sir.
Mr. Steedman. Was he evasive in the memoranduuis that he wrote to you?
Mr. Empie. No ; he wrote some pretty good memorandums.
Mr. Steedman. He was pretty direct and frank in writing to you in his
memorandums, was" he not?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir ; he called my attention to many things that my attention
should have been called to and together we tried to do something about it. I will
say this for Mr. Townsend, I thought all along that he was a very conscientious
employee and was trying to do the best job he could, but I have a feeling yet
that he was, in many respects, very conscientious in his work.
Mr. Steedman. He had been in private business and did not understand Gov-
ernment routine very well; isn't that a fact?
Mr. Empie. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Steedman. And he wanted these Japanese to wofk?
Mr. Empie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Steedman. And respect Government property and so on?
Mr. Empire. That is right ; he did.
Mr, MuNDT. Now, tliat is in rather direct conflict with what Mr.
Head said about Mr. Townsend.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, I have some additional documents which
I did not want to take the time of the committee on, nor the other
folks to read.
I think the record will show that Mr. Townsend was a mistake,
to begin with ; was a mistake all the way through.
I think the second day after he came on the project Mr, Head
outlined to Mr. Townsend in detail his duties and responsibilities and
pointed out to him particular problems that he must face and take
care of.
That was, I think, September 2.
On October 1, he wrote him another memorandum and said that he
had personally made a check of the headquarters transportation
facilities and that certain things that he had requested him to do had
UX-AMEK1C.\X PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9717
not been carried out and pointed specifically to certain things that
should be carried out, again.
Mr. Head again wrote another memorandum on, I believe, October
28 — I would have to check my dates on this — again pointing out to
Mr. Townsend, giving him every opportunity to get his job done
properly, and indicating in this one, as I remember it, or at least in
one case he allowed a Government car to go out without proper
approval, wliicli was the order that Mr. Townsend had, to make a
trip to Phoenix, and certain other oversights.
That was, I think, the last one before the interview that I read.
That would indicate to me that Mr. Head very early in the game
decided that Mr. Townsend probably was not carrying out his duties
properly; but he was giving him every chance over that 3 or 4
months- period to make good by making suggestions to him, or point-
ing out specific places where his work should be bettered, and was
trying to be of every assistance, at the same time being critical and
being on the job himself.
That is all I have to say in answer to that question of yours.
Mr. MuNDT. It was not a question.
Mr, Myer. I don't want to detract at all from Mr. Empie. I have
not seen the record relating to Mr. Empie's testimony. I would say
that if Mr. P^mpie thinks Mr. Townsend is a good man; I do not
agree with him.
Mr. MuNDT. He said, "I have a feeling even yet that he was in
many respects very conscientious in his work."
jMr. ]\Iter. I think that is perhaps true, but certainly not as regards
the truth or regarding some other matters.
Mr. CosTELLO. One point, Mv. INIyer, I want to make on this whole
thing: is that fundamentallv the facts as contained in Mr. Townsencl's
statement were corroborated by the statements that were obtained
from Mr. Empie, Mr. Gelvin, and other witnesses who appeared there.
The basic facts contained in there, the incidents to which he made
reference, and so on, were accurate.
His declaration, or the glamour part that he put into it can be
easily explained. Some of the witnesses, regarding Mr. Townsend,
made the comment, I believe, that he was an alarmist, which was
quite obvious from the conversation you yourself read. He was quite
excited over the strike situation.
The facts he talked about are fundamentally accurate in their testi-
mon3^
Mr. IMyei;. Mr. Chairman, I simply want to repeat that if you feel
those facts are fundamentally correct, I am disturbed, because I do
not agree -with you.
When a man who is supposed to know how many warehouses he is
looking after over a period of 4 months — who just definitely remem-
bers the lunnber and makes it 180 instead of 90; a man who has
charge of the general feeding operations who says 58 tons of food
when it w\as 27 — I would not say that was fundamentally sound in-
formation or fundamentally sound facts.
I think 3^ou w'ill agree with me when you think that he was
Mr. CosTELLO (interposing). There is no question but what on many
of these items he exaggerated or has not given accurate statements.
The only thing I do refer to, when he speaks of the strike and condi-
tions of that kind, his testimony is corroborated by other persons.
9718 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
How long was Mr. Townsend an employee there at the center?
Mr. Myer. I don't know the exact date, but it was approximately
September 1 until December 26.
Mr. CosTELLO. He was only there a matter of 2 or 3 months?
Mr. Myer. About 4 months, I would guess.
Mr. Mundt. It might ease your mind, Mr. Myer, to know that the
committee has not accepted the recommendations or considered con-
clusions of any testimony testified to on the part of Mr. Townsend,
which has not been corroborated by other witnesses.
Mr. Myer. I appreciate that.
Mr. Mundt. I think we can maybe best summarize Mr. Townsend in
the words of another former employee who appeared before us by
the name of James — I had never seen Mr. Townsend — but he sum-
marized the man rather accurately -when he said he seemed to be a
rather conscientious individual with a sincere desire to effect econo-
mies, and so forth, but emotionally he did not think he was suited to
work in a campaign of that kind.
Mr. Myer. I appreciate that statement, Mr. Mundt. The thing
that concerns me is Mr. Costello's definition of '^fundamentally sound"
and my definition of "fundamentally sound." We do not agree.
Mr. CosTELLo. I say the fundamental facts in there are correct.
Mr. Myer. Well, all right ; I will change that ; your interpretation
of the fundamental facts, and mine; I am still disturbed about the
fact that they are a good ways apart.
That is a matter of judgment. There is no use arguing about it.
Mr. CosTELLO. I might ask you about another employee of the
W. R. A. For various reasons I prefer to withhold his name because
it has been the policy of another committee, of which I happen to be
a member, not to publicize names of individuals in this connection,
but for your own information Mr. Stripling will give you the name
of the individual I am referring to.
The question I want to bring up with you is the question of defer-
ment from the draft of this individual, who is an attorne}^, age 3H
years.
I ask offhand, what has been the policy of W. R. A. in regard to
hiring personnel and making an effort not to hire people within the
draft.
Mr. Myer. The policy generally, Mr. Chairman, since the draft has
become a real problem, is to hire people above draft age if it is pos-
sible to secure them ; qualified people.
We had some people when I came into the W. R. A. that were
within the draft age, and we still have. The policy of W. R. A.
regarding deferment has been a very conservative one. We did re-
•quest deferment of the gentleman mentioned here for a period of time.
It was not re-requested. That deferment ran out.
He was examined by his draft board. He was called up and he is
now on deferment because of physical disability and not because of
the request of the W. R. A.
Going back to your statement, I will simply say I don't remember
the exact number. We have the figures and we will be glad to supply
them to the committee as to the total ninnber of individuals we re-
quested deferment on. I think it was 10. I think it was 5 cases we
did receive a deferment on ; that was up to the time of the appropria-
UX-AMERICAX PKOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9719
tions hearing, I have not checked it recently. There may have been
one or two additional cases, but I will be glad to check the records in
relation to this individual or any individual that you might be inter-
ested in, because we are proud of our deferment record.
We are a war agency. We are not trying to keep them out of the
Army.
Mr. CosTELLO. This particular individual does not originate with
you, but for the purpose of the record I shall read off the data secured
from the files of the local board concerning this particular individual.
On May 23, original classification, 1-A. This is 1941.
On September 24, 1941, classification 1-H.
On January 7, 1942, reclassified 1-A.
January 29, continued after physical examination in 1-A.
On February 7, induction postponed until April 7 at the request
of the individual; personal reasons which justified their giving him a
temporary deferment or postponement of induction.
On March 13 request for occupational deferment — he was employed
by another Government department at the time — was made by the
Director of Personnel of that Department, the Department of Agri-
culture, because r
Mr. Myer (interposing). Pardon me; what date was that?
Mr. CosTELLO. March 13, 1942.
It was pointed out that he was necessarj' to carry on the activities
of the Department ; that it was impossible to expand the staff of the
office in which he was employed in order to employ and train men for
replacement purj^oses, and his removal would impede the war pro-
duction efforts of the Department.
It saj'S that the present staff is fully occupied with the work of
the Department; hence deferment of 2-A is requested in order to
allow ample time to train someone to take over.
The date of that was March 13, 1942.
April 4, 1942, classified 2-B. Transfer request was filed by Mr.
M. S. Eisenhower, Director of War Relocation Authority; in other
words, this individual who was engaged in very essential war work,
whose removal would impede the war production efforts of the De-
partment, within 20 days is no longer in the Department, but is
transferred over into the War Relocation Authority, and request
then was made by the then director for the transfer of this gentleman
from the Department of Agriculture.
I failed to state the type of work he was doing. On April 8 he
was reclassified as 2-A until October 7 in order that he might do
the work for W. R. A. for which he was assigned.
On October 6 request for deferment by W. R. A. was refused by
the local board.
On October 7 he was reclassified 1-A.
On December 18, 1942, lie was continued in classification 1-A after
a physical examination; the second one.
On December 31, request for reclassification into occupational de-
ferment, or 2-B. was filed by yourself as director of the War Reloca-
tion Authority.
On January 3, 1943, he was continued in 1-A by the local board.
May 4, 1943, he was continued in 1-A by the board of appeals,
which denied request for occupational deferment.
9720 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
On June 4 he was classified 4-F, after pE5^sical examination. He
had had two physical examinations previously, indicating that he
was 1-A and physically fit.
In his preinduction physical examination he was designated as a
prepsychic personality, mentally disqualified for military service for
that reason.
Now, the one question I raise is, If mentally he is not fit for the
Army, I do not think he would be fit for W. R. A., and if he is fit
for W. R. A. it would seem to me that he ought to be fit for the Army.
The record there indicates a definite attempt on the part of the
individual to avoid military service and utilize practically every
medium possible to escape the draft, and I am happy therefore to
have your statement that the policy of W. R. A. has been to avoid
employing persons of military age or who are likely to be called up
under the draft.
Mr. MuNDT. You were rather rough on Townsend because he was
psychic. You are not a specialist on this kind of employee, are you?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, this is the first time that I ever heard
that this gentleman was psychic. Are you indicating by your state-
ment, Mr. Chairman, that this gentleman apparently is psychic or
that the 4-class classification happens to include psychicing as an
element ?
Mr. CoSTELLO. The gentleman was found mentally disqualified for
military service by reason of a prepsychic personality. That does not
mean, necessarily, that he is psychopathic or insane, or anything else.
It may mean that he has a great abhorence for going into the Army,
or being a part of Uncle Sam's Army to such an extent that men-
tally he is incapable of being a good soldier.
It just seemed to me from the whole record of this case, every step
was being taken by him to avoid service, and it does not seem proper
to me that a person of that character should be given any cooperation
in so avoiding service.
Mr. Myer. I think I have made the record clear, Mr. Chairman, that
he had been called up for induction.
He has been examined. He is not on deferment at our request at
the present time and has not been for the past several weeks. I did
request deferment for him for a short period of time at one time,
however.
Mr. CoSTELLO. May I ask you a question regarding these various
Japanese out on indefinite leave?
Some of these include Kibei and Issei, as well as Nisei Japanese;
is that correct ?
Mr. Myer. That is right ; they do.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you have the figures as to how many of those are
aliens?
Mr. Myer. No ; excepting that we took a sample recently for a period
of time as to how many aliens were in that particular period, and I
have not checked the whole group as yet. We have not had time to
check that. But about 15 percent of those going out were aliens dur-
ing that period checked, so I would say that was probably a pretty
good sample.
Mr. CosTELLO. The aliens who are released are given the same type
of check as given to anyone else being released from the center, or are
they given a more rigid check ?
UN-AMERICAN" PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9721
Mr. Mter. Well, they are given the same type of check, of course, as
the other people. We go more carefully into their background, of
course, than we do with people who have never been to Japan, as to
their contacts with the Japanese Government, if any, or the contacts
with organizations.
I might say on that i)oint again that most of the leaders who were
the key leaders in Japanese organizations were incarcerated in intern-
ment centers at the beginning of the war and have been there through-
out.
However, we do make about the same checks, Mr. Chairman, as we
make of the others, except we do go more carefully into their history
from the standpoint of Japanese relations than we do with citizens
who had no contact at alL
Mr. CosTELLO. While in California I had one or two people phone
me, and there were various items carried from time to time in the
press, and the stories appeared very persistently that from time to time
Japanese people are seen in and around southern California, specifi-
cally in Los Angeles. It is my understanding that Japanese are not
at this time permitted to go into southern California unless they would
actually be under orders from your center or with a Caucasian
employee accompanying them,
i\Ir. Myer. The only Japanese allowed to go into California at this
time go in with the permission of General DeAVitt and will go with a
Caucasian escort.
Mr. CosTELLO. Otherwise no persons of Japanese ancestry are
allowed into that area unless they are actually in the Army service?
Mr.MYER. Or except allow^ed to go there by the War Department.
There are a few exce^itions to that. That was taken care of by the
War Department before we took over any of this matter. There were
a few people who were a mixed marriage, who had children. They
were allowed to return to the coast during the assembly center period
of the Army, particularly wives of white men who had children. I
don't remember exactly how many cases; I am not sure that w^e ever
had that request, but I have the impression about 350 of such people
were so released.
There have been individual cases, because of particular hardships,
as I understand it, that have been released.
I think (Jeneral DeWitt made the statement before the Naval Af-
fairs Committee that he had six people working at Presidio in con-
nection witli tlieir program, who were of Ja])anese ancestry. I think
there have been s])ecial exceptions of that kind made where they are
doing special Government work.
As"far as onr policy has been concerned, we have no authority, never
have had. to allow anyone to return to California or to any part of the
evacuated ai-ea. without the specific ])erniission of the War Depart-
ment, and in that case it is General DeWitt who gives that permission.
Mr. CosTEiiX). Let us assimie this situation, of a Japanese evacuee
having been sent to Poston or to Manzauar and desired to return to
Los Angeles, and lie were to do so in company with a Caucasian em-
ployee of the W. R. A., he would still have to have written authoriza-
tion from the Ai-my itself befoi-e he could do so?
Mr. Myer. That is correct. He would, in all cases.
9722 TIN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
jMr. CosTELLO. No effort lias been made, or no attempt made to
remove those Japanese who have been confined to sanitariums for their
health, or something of that character?
Mr. Myer. No ; excepting for those who have become, in the mean-
time, well enough to be moved. Certain cases have moved out with
escort at times (hiring the last few months.
We have not tried to make provision for those people in our centers
becatise they are being taken care of there.
In accordance with the policy established by the xlrmy, we are pay-
ing for their subsistence and for the service rendered there, rather
than bringing them into the centers.
I think there are approximately 550 cases on the coast of advanced
tuberculosis cases, or similar cases, in institutions and hospitals, that
were not evacuated at the time the Army carried out the Army evacu-
ation program, and have not been since.
Mr. CosTELLO. And if such persons were allowed to leave the hos-
pital for a day, or sometlnng of that kind, they also would have to have
written authorization from the Army to do so ?
Mr, Myer. Absolutely.
Mr. CosTELLo. No person should be allowed or found in that area
unless he would actually have on his person a written authorization
from the War Department ?
]\Ir. Myer. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Yesterday, Mr. ISIver, we had a somewhat lengthy and
informal discussion about the manner in which the W. R. A. program
of relocation was determined ttpon. I asked you whether you felt
the element of communit}^ acceptance was very important and you
said you did.
I would like to inquire now w^hether there have been any times
when the element of community acceptance and the W. R. A. reloca-
tion program ever ran into conflict with each other?
Mr. Myer. Yes, Mr. Mundt. There have been a few cases where
we have run into difficulties.
I mentioned one the other day that worked out all right eventually
in Marengo, 111. Plans were worked out some time this spring for
a group of about, I believe, 13 people, 2 or 3 families, to relocate there
on some lands belonging to the Curtiss Candy Co., in the farming
business.
The matter had been checked with key businessmen of the town,
the key people of the countryside, the sheriff and the local officers, but
before the townspeople generally had the opportunity to be apprised
of the situation, a couple of the advance members of the group ap-
peared in the streets and somebody started a rumor and it caused
quite a little furore and flare-up.
It took 2 or 3 weeks to get it straightened out.
Finally, the town council called an open meeting of all the citizens
interested — I think they had 80 some people present — and having
the full facts present and threshed out, I believe, they took an open
vote on the subject, and as I remember the vote of the group present,
it was around 63 to 21, something of that sort, that they should come
on in.
Those people have gone ahead with their farming business, and it
seems to be working along all right.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9723
I use that case because I happen to remember the facts in detail.
It Avas published in the papers.
We have had other places where we have had difficulties and the
people have not ^one in.
More recently we had a situation arise in the State of Arizona,
which we have closed entirely for the time being to relocation, be-
cause of the sentiment that has been developed in that area, possibly
due to the presence of these people, and because of the very, very
emotional attitude of the many people in Arizona resulting partly
from the stolen dyoamite story; resulting partly from many other
considerations.
I won't try to give all of them, but it has been a difficult problem
there. There has been much misinformation; some information that
was true, but that is one of the cases.
Mr. CosTELLO. Is it not partly due, this feeling that the people of
Arizona have, that an insufficient check is made on the Japanese
before they are released from camps?
INIr. Myer. I think not. I think in Arizona it is basically fear on
the part of the people. The Governor stated time and again if they
would resettle in the Salt Hiver Valley, they w^ould have more peo-
ple engaging in business and driving out the local people already op-
erating and that has been one of the objections from the State of
Arizona.
Mr. Mfndt. They fear there will be a larger group ?
Mr. Myfr. The}' fear there will be a larger group, economically,
ves; and that is the basic reason in Arizona.
Mr. CosTELLO. That situation existed long before the dynamite
story ?
Mr. ^Iyer. Yes; 1934 and 1935; and some other problems they
had at that time.
Mr. MuXDT. You recognize, then, that community aceptance is of
fundamental importance in the handling of the Japanese problem.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, if we had not recognized that, we would
not have spent the Government's money to set up regional offices in
the country, which were to check up on the acceptability of these peo-
ple, before we started relocation programs in these areas, and check
up on cases where the difficulty did arise, in order to get at the facts
and see what the trouble was.
AVe have gone to great care in that.
AVe did not plan a year ago, frankly, to do that. We hoped it
would not be necessar3\ We hoped we could do it with local com-
mittees. It developed that that was not feasible or possible. They
are collaborating or working with us very well, but we needed people
responsible to the AV. R. A. to do that job.
Mr. MrxDT. It is my opinion if an adequate program of checks
upon these citizens of Japanese ancestry could be developed and
announced and made available to the ])ublie, and to these 50 field
offices, that you would contribute greatly to the general community
acceptance. Out in my area for example, based on an entirely errone-
ous statement made inadvertently, as you told us yesterday, by some-
body in your office at one time, that the F. B. I. was making a complete
check, it did contribute to connnunity accej^tability of the evacuees.
Mr. Myer. That has been vei'v true.
9724 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT. But apparently you have corrected the record in
that regard.
Mr. Myee. Several times.
Mr. MuNDT. Unfortunately, the impact of your correction has been
that they are not acceptable as they were.
Mr. Myer. Very true ; I agree with you.. Every mistake we make
bounces back into our laps, as it does with everybody else.
Mr. ISIuNDT. As the result of the colloquy we had in the last few
days, in which you have stated that a program was under operation
whereby Japanese, under certain circumstances, cannot locate in the
East, yet in the Middle West, is also going to contribute to the un-
certainty. The facts must speak for themselves and neither you nor
I want to deceive the people in that situation.
Mr. Myer. Not for one moment.
I would like to make one other statement for the record on that.
Captain Hall, who is here, and who is chairman of the Joint Jap-
anese-American Board, pointed out to me that the checks for in-
definite leave generally, by the joint board, are the same ones as they
are for the Eastern Defense Command, so there is no difference in
the method of checking between those that they would recommend to
us for indefinite leave any place as well as in the Eastern Defense
Command.
There really isn't any diffrence in the check made.
The only reason, Mr. Mundt, that I was not willing to make the
statement that there was anybody released from here that Avas not
allowed some place else, was because j^ou occasionally find exceptions
to the rule, and sometimes they are thrown in your face, and I don't
want to be in the position of having to explain the situation later on
when, as a matter of fact, the general rule is thus and so.
I would like to make one further statement. I pointed out, I think,
yesterday — and I want to repeat it — that we requested the Federal
Bureau of Investigation to conduct the investigations, which were
basic for leave centers back when we first started this program.
We would have been delighted to have had that service from the
Federal Bureau of Investigation. They begged off at the time on
the ground that they did not have the force; they were busy with
many other things ; they did not feel that they wanted to take on the
work of doing the job within the centers, and urged us not to urge
them to do so.
We would have been glad to have them do that checking if they
were willing to do that. They were not at the time; not because they
didn't want to be of assistance, but they felt they were burdened with
too many of the war jobs ; that they were taking that up generally
Mr. Mundt (interposing). Do I understand that this long discus-
sion that we had yesterday about the fact that there was a difference
between the screening applied to evacuees in the Eastern Defense
Command and in the Middle West is now all based on an erroneous
assumption, and that they are not identical ?
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, one thing, I am afraid I have not gotten
understood.
All people in tlie Eastern Defense Command have to be passed on
by the Joint Defense Board.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9725
All people that go generally throughout the country, other than
tlie Eastern Defense Command, do not haver to be passed on by the
Joint Defense Board yet.
AVe take the responsibility and we check cases.
As far as the criteria of the Joint Defense Board, they are using
more criteria, taking those for the Eastern Defense Command as
those they recommend to us for indefinite leave. That is the only
point: In other Avords, what they say about the Eastern Defense
Command reinforces our demand and gives support to our check.
"Where we may be beginning to have
INIr. INIuNDT (interposing). Pardon me. Let us get back to our
individual case and see if we can clarify this.
As I understand it now, Captain Hall places a different interpre-
tation on this.
^Ir. Myer. No; not a different interpretation. It was simply that
I think I did not just make it clear, and I am trying to clarify the
record.
Mr. MuNDT. Now, let us say Joe Smithoko' leaves Poston and set-
tles at Omaha again. We will start all over again. There is this
indefinite leave program, or eight points, whereby he settles in Omaha
without any screening from the F, B. I., or any screening on his
former pre-Pearl Harbor occupation.
He is temporarily located there.
Then he decides to move to Philadelphia or Baltimore. To do
that he has to submit an application to the Joint Board, of which
Captain Hall has charge, and then the Joint Board passes on the
application and says, "We are sorry, but we do not feel we can give
you the green light to settle in Philadelphia."
Now, I would like to ask you specifically^ what happens to Joe
Sniitlioko.
Mr. Myer. We have had no such case like that that I know of,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuxDT. I am giving you a hypothetical case. I do not know
Joe Smithoko.
Mr. ]\Iyer. If they have developed a record regarding that indi-
vidual which is bad, and is very bad, bad enough to make us believe
he should be recalled to the relocation center, he will be recalled to
the relocation center.
Mr. ]Muxi>T. Yesterday you put him back in Omaha; today he is
back in the center.
Mr. Myer. No ; I did not.
Mr. MuxDT. Which is where he belongs.
Mr. Myer. No; I did not. You asked me yesterday whether or
not there were such cases, and I told you that I didn't know; I
would have to check the matter. I have not been able to check it.
So far as I know, tliere are no such cases.
Mr. MuxDT. Will you state now for the record, definitely, so that
there won't be this confusion — and there should not be any confusion
about this, Mr. ]\Iyer
Mr. INIyer (interposing). There should not; no. But there is a
good deal of it.
Mr. MuxDT. We should get tliis clearly across.
e,2(V2(\ — 43 — vol. 1'} 57
9726 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Is it definitely the policy of the War Relocation Authority that il
anybody has sought to secure the permission of Captain Hall's boys —
we will call it — I cannot remember the other name — to settle in the
Eastern Defense Command and been denied that permission, that he
is automatically, without exception, returned to the War Relocation
Authority center?
Mr. Myer. We have never had a case and we have never been faced
with that issue. If they recommend that he be returned to the
center, he will be returned to the center, but we have never had a
'case come up as yet.
Mr. MuNDT. As I understand it, Captain Hall recommends whether
he is acceptable to this defense command or not.
They are not going to interfere with your regulations as to where
you want to put him, are they?
Mr. Myer. They might want to make a recommendation.
Mr. MuNDT. Now, just who does settle this policy?
Mr. Myer. We decide finally. I thought I made that clear for the
record, as far as the general United States is concerned.
Mr. MuNDT. I am not trying to criticize your policy. I am trying
to find out, for the benefit of this country, Avhat the policy is?
One time you tell me it is one thing, and another time you tell me
it is another thing. Then you say the Board determines it. Would
the Board determine?
Mr. Myer. I said if they were in a position to make a recom-
mendation that the man be returned to the center, we would return
him to the center.
What the Board actually does in those cases is to refer him back
to us and say, "We do not at this time feel that this individual
should be given leave within the Eastern Defense Command or given
indefinite leave."
Mr. MuNDT. That is what the Board does ?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Then what do you do ?
Mr. Myer, We have not been faced with a case of the type that you
mentioned that I know of.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you automatically, without exception, return him
to the center ?
Mr. Myer. We have not had any case to have an exception on.
Mr. MuNDT. But you admit such a case might arise ?
Mr. Myer. I admit such a case might arise, and I am not ready to
determine the policy on that until I hear the case, Mr. Mundt. I
think it would depend on the facts that they presented to us as to
whether I would return him to the center or not.
Mr. Mundt. Has every applicant that has made an appeal to Cap-
tain Hall's board been acceptable to the Eastern Defense Command?
There have been no rejections?
Mr. Myer. No ; I don't think every applicant has.
But the people I know of as coming into the Eastern Defense
Command
M«r. Mundt (interposing). They have not come in defiance of the
Board, have they ?
Either they have all been rejected or not.
If something happened to them, what would be done about that?
Mr. Myer. That is what I will have to chock on. I don't have the
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9727
information immediately on hand, and I have not had a chance to
check in the interim period. I will be glad to check that and supply
it for the record as best I can.
Mr. JNIuNDT. Did you not say no case had arisen as yet?
Mr. Mter. So far as I know, there have been no cases in the East-
ern Defense Command, gentlemen, that asked to move out. That is
why I said
]VIr. MuNDT (interposing). I am talking about evacuees outside try-
ing to move in. .
Mr. Myer. We are misunderstanding each other. I will check the
record on that item. I don't know what the situation is regarding,
whether there were any rejections, and if so, what happened to them.
I will check the record on that for you.
Mr. ]MuNDT. "Would you include in the record, then, this — I do not
care about the names, but the number of applicants for entry into the
Eastern Defense Command who have been rejected and the disposi-
tion in each case of that particular applicant.
Mr. Mter. I will be very glad to do that ; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Because I think it is highly important to this commit-
tee, to the country, and to the community acceptance throughout the
country to know whether the information which you and I both
thought was correct yestierday, is correct, or whether something else is
correct.
Mr. Mter, I think there is some misunderstanding, but we will
check it further now and I will supply it for the record.
Mr. CosTELLo. I might follow Mr. Mundt's suggestion just one
step further.
Under what authority would you be able to compel an evacuee to
return to the relocation center, once he has been released to the mid-
section of the country ?
Mr, Myer. We have never had to test that as yet.
We would ask him to return, and we would bring suit and see what
would happen in the courts, if he had a record, or have him arrested
and ask him to return.
So far those who have been asked to return have done so, without
difficulty.
Mr. CosTELLO. I am asking that question in view of the constitu-
tional feature raised yesterday.
Mr. Mter. I am very much concerned about it, but that is some-
thing that we certainly would have to turn over to the Justice De-
partment and F. B. I. to help us with in that connection.
Mr. Costello, I understand at the center at: Gila they have estab-
lished there a cooperative. May 1 inquire as to the reason for setting
up this cooperative in this particular center, or is it the policy of
AV. R. A. to establish cooperatives in all centers?
Mr. Mter. It is the polic}^ of W. R. A. to recommend cooperatives
where they have their own community enterprises at all centers for
the reason that we have to deny the opportunity for individuals to
can-y on business within the centers under an artificial situation,
which they would not do in the normal community in the way of
running stores.
So shops, barber shops, beauty shops, all of the other services that
vou would get in a normal community were not available in any relo-
9728 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES.
cation center and in view of our wage policy of $12, $16, and $19 a
month, which was uniform, there did not seem any way to work that
out to allow people to set up business and begin business all over
the center.
So we recommended (1) that they set up a cooperative to render
these services under the State laws that we have in the different
States, or any other proper organization of cooperatives, wherever
they might want to incorporate.
I think that more than half of the centers have definitely estab-
lished cooperatives under proper legal provisions.
In a few cases they are running on a trust fund basis, which is not
quite a cooperative, but which provides that some of the funds are
used in their own community activities.
We have followed the policy from the beginning, as fast as we could
regulate it with employees, that tliey run their own business in the
way of stores, barber shops, all the services I have mentioned, and
many more.
We have felt that the Government should not go into business and
handle that type of business. The cooperative seemed to be the logi-
cal and most practical way for them to have that business carried on,
in view of the fact that they could not go freely back and forth out-
side of the centers generally and carry on their business.
Some of them are doing their shopping close by on temporary leave.
That, Mr. Chairman, summarizes briefly our reasons for it. I
would be glad to file for this record a more detailed statement as to
that.
Mr. CoSTELLO. Does that apply to the mess halls or the warehouses,
or anything of that type ; net factories, or whatever they have at the
projects?
Mr. Myer. Ko; it would have been too intricate. We would have
had the evacuees absolutely refuse to handle it, similar to the way the
Army handles their canteens. We prefer not to; we prefer not to
handle the business. Our policy is that we do nothing except pro-
vide one man in each center to help supervise and work with them ;
help to maintain outside contacts.
And we do make an audit regularly to see that the business is
carried on on a sound basiB, in line with the policies of the W. K. A.
and the Government, and that the evacuees may have the facts re-
garding the way the business is being handled, what funds are avail-
able, what the savings are, what the profits are, and so forth.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you also insist that they follow j^our project wage
scales ?
Mr. Mter. Oh, yes; they have to work to see that they follow out
the policies; they follow out the project wage scale and other policy
provisions.
I thought I made that clear. We have no wage scale other than
the $12, $16, and $19, regardless where they work.
Mr. CosTELLO. My understanding is that each person in the center
is entitled to own one share of stock and no more.
Mr. Myer. That is the normal procedure — one share and one vote.
And most of them are organized under the so-called Rosedale System
of Consumer Cooperatives that has been generally utilized in this
UN-AAIEKICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9729
country, in many portions of this country, both in rural and other
areas.
Mr. CosTELLO. Their supervision then remains in the center author-
ities to operate the cooperative, and that is done by an assistant on
your staff ^
Mr. MvER. Yes; it is their business. I want to repeat that we do
have one appointed personnel in each of the centers to give general
supervision to the policy and to the program, to see that they are
fulfilling and carrying out the policies of the War Relocation Au-
thority, and give them assistance in getting their jobs done, and to
advise with them, and give them technical advice in relation to their
jDrogram, and assist them in their purehasing and buying and provid-
ing other services.
Mr. CosTELLO. It is my understanding from the hearing that we
have had that in many instances the alien group or pro- Japanese
group, I might say, are doing their utmost to direct the thinking of
many of the loyal Japanese in the camps and trying to subvert them :
to lean toward disloyal Japanese principles.
Do you not think if that group were controlled by the coopera-
tives, it would give them a very definite control over the persons
located in the centers?
Mr. Mter. Mr. Chairman, I suppose it will have some effect on
that. It has been traditional in Japanese families, as most of our
families, that the elders of the families control the purse strings.
The elders of the families control the discipline; have the say about
the business of the families until they estabhsh families of their own.
And, of course, we have some of that going on in the centers as
you would have on the outside. I think it is unavoidable.
I don't know what the details are regarding the make-up of these
different boards of directors, but it may have some effect.
"\Mienever jou put 100,000 people together, throw them out of the
main stream of their economic occux3ations and begin a new realine-
ment, you are going to have competition or positions of influence and
power regardless of ancestry, I would say, and there has been some-
thing of that going on.
Mr. MuNDT. My understanding is the head of the Gila Coopera-
tive is actually an alien Japanese ; the president of the cooperative.
Mr. Mter. There probably is; there is no law against it, and no
regulation against it. After all, those cooperatives are serving all
the families and all the people in the center, and they are free to
elect their own board of directors, people who they feel can most
satisfactorilj' run the business, which is their business, under these
regulations.
We have no regulations against it.
Let me point out, Mr. Chairman, that the most of these citizens,
nonaliens, are below 35 years of age. Most of them, as a matter of
fact, are 40 and below 25 years of age ; the major group being between
10 and 25. There are some older than that, but not a very large
group.
The population pattern is such that the most of the citizen group,
or probably the largest bulk of them, are high school and college
graduates, or just above, so many of that group had mature business
training and experience.
9730 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
I would like to point out further in connection with our relocation
program, something over one-third of the United States citizens in
these centers have relocated on the outside, either on seasonal leave
or indefinite leave.
The figure I gave, about 85 percent of those relocating, are citizens
of the United States, so out of the 15,000 that have gone out, some-
thing between twelve and thirteen thousand, perhaps — so far as the
example is concerned — I have not checked the total figure — are Ameri-
can citizens, and with that proportion on the outside, the group who
have gone out first are the best trained, the most aggressive, those
that want to establish themselves, the best brains among your Nisei
group, for the most part, your citizen group, and consequently, as
time goes on, if that proportion continues, we are going to have left
more nearly an alien population than citizenship, excepting for the
Kidos and the old people.
We won't have many people make the citizen group of an age to
do business or to serve on councils, and that creates an entirely dif-
ferent problem than it did in the beginning.
Mr. CosTELLo. Are each of these cooperatives incorporated in the
individual States they are operating?
Mr. Myer. No; I think some of them even incorporate under the
laws of the District of Columbia. That is my impression. I think
they are all licensed.
One of the things that has caused difficulty is the State corpora-
tion commission deciding to have them take out a State license if it
is a cooperative, which has caused quite a fight, and I presume you
know about that.
It is not incorporated under the Arizona laws, but they have to
be licensed under the Arizona laws.
]\Ir. CosTELLO. The cooperative would have to be licensed before
they would be allowed to operate.
Mr. Myer, No; I think not. Excepting under an injunction, un-
til they could get their license back.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you get the information about the spinach?
Mr. Myer. Yes, sir; I have the information about the spinach.
I have a letter to supply for the record.
This is addressed to the chairman of the subcommittee and reads
as follows :
Hon. John O. Costello,
Chairman, Subcommittee, House Committee on
Un-American Activities, Washington, D. C. '
Dear Mr. Costeixo : Regarding the shipment of spinach which had been
received at the Poston relocation center in a spoiled condition and being de-
stroyed at the time your committee visited the center, we have secured the
following information by telephone from the project director at Poston :
The spinach was shipped from the Granada, Colo., relocation center; it
spoiled en route because of failure of the railroad to ice the cars. It was
inspected by a railroad company representative before it was destroyed. In-
formal acknowledgment of the railroad's responsibility was secured at that
time.
The center has prepared a claim for $4.^)0 and will present it to the railroad
in the course of settling the account for the shipment. No payment for freight
charges has been made by the center.
The project director has assured me that all crates received in this ship-
ment in good condition have been salvaged.
Sincerely,
D. S. Myer, Director.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9731
Mr. ISIuNDT. The crates Avere thrown away ?
Mr. Myer. No; all crates were salvaged that could be.
INIr. ]MuNDT. And the bad ones were thrown away?
^Ir. Myer. That is right.
Mv. ]\IcNDT. Time has not lapsed, so you do not know about any
recovery ?
Mr, Myer. No; we do not have any information. However the
freight has not been paid.
Someone asked for the record yesterday, also for the complete
A. P. article of May 31, rather than the excerpts. I don't remember
who asked it. I will supply that for the record here in relation
to the food question. This was published in the Philadelphia Kecord
of June 1, 1943. It was carried in a number of papers, and I think
this is complete, if not, we will be glad to find one that is.
Mr. Mter. This is the property inventory, Mr. Chairman, that 1
will supply for the record, which was requestecl,
Mr. Myer. I have a two-paragraph statement which I received
verbally, in order to check the records regarding Mr. Empie's state-
ment on Mr. Townsend's leaving, which was requested and which I
will supply for the record :
Statement of ArcusTCs Empie, AoMiNisTKATn'E Officeb, Poston, Colo., Regard-
ing Leave Granted Haeold H. Townsend During the Strike at Poston
November lS-24
On the long distance telephone from Poston, Empie yesterday, July 6, stated
that during the strike Townsend came to him and asked permission to leave
the center on annual leave for the purpose of taking his wife home from the
hospital. According to Townsend's application and employment record at the
center, his home was in Los Angeles, Calif. Empie understood that he was
granting annual leave for only a day or two to allow for a trip at personal expense
to Los Angeles and back.
It later developed that Townsend left the center and drove in a Government
car to Oklahoma City without authorization. Empie positively states that
no authorization was given Townsend to use a Government car, either to go to
Los Angeles or to Oklahoma City on personal business. As a matter of fact,
both Empie and Townsend, by virtue of their positions, knew that no officer of
the project could authorize the use of a Government car for such a personal trip
as Townsend made.
I might say that I Avas not able to get this morning the Manzanar
agreement, but I will supply that for the record just as soon as we
can get that together. That agreement was worked out between the
War Department and the Los Angeles people, and was carried over.
Mr. Rhodes, who just left town, who knew the background here,
was not available this morning, and we may have to get them from
the AVar Department files, but we will get them for the record.
I have here a list of names on our pay roll who were evacueeSj which
I will supply for the record.
I may say for the attention of the committee here, the highest salary
is $1,800, statistical clerk.
I was 2 oif on the number of employees. Tlie last figure I had was
25; we now have 23. I will supply those names and the titles of the
positions or grades, and the salary.
(The material referred to is contained in the committee file as an
exhibit.)
Mr. Myer. I had also the leave policies for the record, but I think
I supplied those in connection with a letter from Mr. McCloy, and the
attorney general.
9732 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
The other information requested, as I ah-eady mentioned, I have not
gathered, but I will supply it as quickly as I can.
Mr. CosTELLo. You have not been able to get that list of names
checked, have you ?
Mr. Myer. No. As I told you, the people have been working on it,
but we have not been able to get the facts together.
Mr. CosTELLO. Will you be able to get that for us by tomorrow?
Mr. JMyer. Yes ; I think the next few hours, or by tomorrow.
As for that shorter list of names, we can get that very quickly, I
think.
Mr. MuNDT. Has there been any understanding arrived at, Mr,
Myer, dealing with the evacuees or with the communities into which
they resettle, as to whether or not they are going there just for the
duration of the Avar, or whether, once they have left your camp, they
are on their own, and that is something to be worked out in the course
of events ?
Mr. Myer. Those on indefinite leave are there presumably for the
duration of the war. Those on seasonal leave, as T explained yester-
day, most of them, or some of them — I won't say most of them because
many of them request indefinite leave later — will probably come back
to the center after they have completed the few months' work, or several
months' work.
Mr, MuNDT. You say "for the duration of the war." You mean
there is some understanding either with them or with the community
that is for the duration of the war only ?
Mr. Myer. No; we have never, at anj^ time, made any understanding
or agreement with anybody that it was only for the duration of the
war. We cannot control, in our judgment, where people live during or
after the war, excepting as regarding the excluded areas.
I certainly don't want to take the responsibility of policing people
and chasing them out. Very frankly, I hope that many of these
people who establish themselves throughout the country will stay in
the areas where they are establishing themselves, and that they will
not bulk off in any one spot again because, I think it will be a good thing
for them and the United States, if they do not. Otherwise we may
have some of the same difficulties we had because of the little Tokyos
that existed on the coast when this started,
I think it is sound from their standpoint, and it is sound from the
standpoint of the United States Government, and that is one of the
basic considerations underlying the leave program.
I think it is good for California. Mr. Costello. I told your delega-
tion that shortly after you left for California, and I told the rest of the
country that that is good procedure.
As Mr. Costello knows, their people who lived in California seemed
to like to get back, and when they again have the opportunity, I pre-
sume many of them will go back because it is home.
Mi-. MuNDT. Undoubtedly that enters into the picture, which will
have to be discussed later, after we find out how this program operates,
but if they are gradually shortening the circle into which they are
placing these evacuees to a little segment in the Dakotas and the
Mississippi River, we may have quite an abundance of little Tokyos
there some day.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9733
INIr. Myer. I don't think you need have any apprehension about that.
In the total United States there are 130,000 souls of Japanese an-
cestry. That is one-tenth of 1 percent of the total population ; a very
small proportion of the total population, and I do not think that you
need to be concerned.
I think you Avill find that as the population grows older, as we
pass the third, fourth, and fifth oeneration, that you will not find the
same cultures that you find among your alien group.
It is perfectly natural for people who do not speak English well,
and for many other reasons, to seek solace in each other's company,
and seek protection.
I think that is generally true of minority groups. I have talked
to a great many of what I call experts on the subject. There are two
or three of them who have indicated to me by the fifth generation
you won't have this population we have here, if we can get over this
hump and get them distributed, because they will be American kids.
All the aliens will be gone. The influence will be gone. There will
be no ties back in Japan. They will be accepted into the community
and there will be no reason for Tokyos.
I might make one observation. Commander Ringo, associated with
the War Relocation Authority — I never met him because he left about
3 or 4 days ago to go to sea before I came in — he was with the Office
of Naval Intelligence, and he made the statement once that probably
there would have been no evacuation had the war come 15 or 20 years
later. Most of your alien groups would have passed on.
Your citizen, second-generation group, would have become much
more established as families; your third-generation group would be
about where your second-generation group is now, and you would have
passed on to that stage.
It happened to hit at the time when there were still a lot of people
who maintained ties with Japan, which was unfortunate.
INIr. ]VIuxDT. I agree with you thoroughly that the more you rely
on concentration of the Japanese, now and after the war, the more you
agitate any racial problem. I think your Authority has a wonderful
opportunity in that regard to sort of separate these evacuees into com-
munities so that they will not become centered either in my country or
in any other part of the United States.
Mr. Mter. We hope to do that,
Mr. MuNDT. And I hope you will not, simply because the evacuees
take more readily to the handling of sugar beets and so forth, set
up a lot of little rural Tokyos. Keep that in mind when you distribute
them around.
Mr. Myer. On the other hand, the pressure is very strong on the
part of the rural districts, when they need labor, to get those people,
to get them out and work, on a seasonal basis.
Mr. MuxDT. On a seasonal basis.
Mr. Mter. On a seasonal basis, and indefinite basis.
IMany people have gone up through the Snake River Valley and
other places, who have established themselves pretty well, and work-
ing oij through the years, as evidenced by the fact that many who
came out during the period of voluntary resettlement have not come
back, and many of them in rural areas, 1 might say.
9734 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
However, a very great many of these evacuees I mentioned, the
citizen group, who are relocated, more than one-third who have gone,
have not gone to the rural areas, but gone to the larger cities like
Chicago and Cleveland and Cincinnati; some to Washington, as I
have indicated in your last hearing, and all over the country.
JMr. MuNDT. Do you know Tokie Slocum?
Mr. Myer. Yes ; I have seen Tokie here every day.
]Mr. MuNDT. I have a letter here which I would like to read to you,
which was sent to me by Mr. Slocum at my suggestion.
I suggested to Mr. Slocum, and also to Mike Masaoka, after their
testimony, that I thought it would be interesting to the committee,
and I am sure to you, to have the suggestions and clearly thought
out recommendations of some loyal Japanese themselves as to what
they felt would be the best manner in meetmg the vital problem
which confronts you and your administration, and that is a separa-
tion of the loyal from the disloyal Japanese.
All of the Japanese who testified before this committee, I think
with the exception of one, said that the members of that race had a
very personal and peculiar desire to see to it that no disloyal Japa-
nese got out and committed an act of sabotage or espionage, because
that would affect the loyal as well as the disloyal elements ; that they
were as much interested in that problem as you, the Administrator,
or we, as members of the investigating committee.
I would like to read you this letter with these suggestions — it is
written out number by number, and then ask you some questions
about it as we go along.
Mr. CosTELLo. Mr. Eberharter wondered whether you would like
to make a statement first.
Mr. Myer. I want to repeat to the committee members that while
we have stated before, and I stated, I think, in a press conference
in the office on May 14, which some of these people attended, that
we were going ahead with these segregation problems. We have not
been specific about that; we have hesitated largely because of the
effect upon our evacuee population in relation to the emotions that
may develop when rumors begin to get started as to what is going to
happen, how it is going to happen, and where it is going to happen.
Until we get all the facts worked out in the meantime, the other
folks will be helpful to us in that program.
I made the statement this morning, which I don't retract, that
plans are made to make the movement beginning about September
1. r am not ready to announce the segregation center as yet, for
rather obvious reasons.
The main idea is you must get people packed up ready to move and
we have to work that out as we go along.
There are just two or three things that I would like to say about
that, in general.
The first people who will be moved will be those people who want
definitelv to be Japanese, repatriates, and those who request expatria-
tion to Japan, just as fast as we can work it out.
And I want to say to the committee that I started in Augusfr 1942,
trying to find a spot where I could move those people to, but I never
found one available, because our centers have been full. They would
have been moved long ago if we had had the place.
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9735
I want to repeat that the control of these people has not caused
lis difficulty, because many of those people were average people, dis-
illusioned because of their environment.
We have proceeded with our relocation program now so that we
can make a shift, but when our centers were full, that was not
possible.
You see, we did not get people until November 1. First we had
to have the records. We are trying to get the checks through the
F. B. I., to get the facts. That was our first problem.
The next one was a place, and we are now arriving at the place
where we think we can work out this place without building a new
one, or without asking the Army to erect us or supply a new canton-
ment some place.
There will be a movement of repatriates, including men, women and
children, and the figure is about 6,300 of those, families and all.
That is the ones we have at the moment.
The people who are involved in the centers, the "No" answers to
the eligibility question, those will all be processed through hearing
boards, and records checked to be sure that there is no mistake ; people
with Intelligence records, F. B. I., and the Office of Naval Intelli-
gence.
I mentioned the hearings. All except repatriates and expatriates
will have hearings, if we determine to move them before they do
move to the segregation centers.
Now, that includes the number that have refused to register, who
gave "No," or a qualified answer to question No. 28 of the registra-
tion blank, plus their families, if the families care to go with them,
Donaffirmative answers.
We hope to complete the major movement between September 1st
and October 20.
As to transportation, it would require about 8 trains with engines
and cars for a full period of 7 weeks, on the basis of our general
estimate ; 20 or about 25 trainloads in and about 20 trainloads out
of the different segregation centers would be — well, it will cost ap-
proximately $1,000,000; mostly transportation costs.
We are asking that the escort guards be supplied by the Army and
I am hoping, if we make the movement on that short period and
that large scale, that the War Department may handle the move-
ment from this center to that one entirely, and turn them over to us
when they get them there.
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Myer, that statement of your policy there it
seems to me is rather important. I am wondering whether or not, if
that were put up to the various relocation centers, it might have a
very bad tendency on the general effect of those centers, and whether
or not you want that thing published.
Mr. 5Itkr. I would prefer, iMr. Chairman, that it not be published.
That is one reason I have no general statement until we have the
details worked out. I think that we will have a tremendous emotional
turmoil the minute that that is announced; when anybody has to
move large numbers, as we have, I have been reluctant to make a state-
ment— other than at sometime there would be one worked out — until
we were ready to go.
Frankly — and off the record — I say off the record, but not this rec-
ord, but I do not want to publicize it now, transportation is not avail-
9736 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
able between now and that time to move that many people for reasons
which you can surmise yourself.
So there are all^ kinds of problems involved in this sort of thing.
We have definitely determined on the policy. We have been working
with the War Department and the O. D. T. and the other agencies for
quite some time.
Mr. CosTELLO. Did I understand you to say that an announcement of
this character, regarding the general policy of segregation, was made
on May 17 ?
Mr. Myee. I think it was May 12, at the time of the press conference.
I made the statement that segregation would be carried out; just the
general statement, but not as to type and in detail that we have here.
Mr. CosTKLLO. The matter off the record here would be specific ref-
erence as to time.
Mr. Mter. The specific reference as to time, trainloads, and so on.
As far as the statement that we are moving ahead and will carry on
the segregation program, it is perfectly all right to make that.
Mr. CosTELi.0. The only thing you want off the record is any refer-
ence to the specific date ?
Mr. Myer. That is right. I think we better say or do that at the
moment until we can get those facts worked out in the proper manner
and prepare those people for it.
The types of people I would like to have off the record.
I do not know that there will be any exception in that case because
it does involve families and relationships.
I made the statement a good many times that that is one group that
I would not hesitate to move, because that is definite, and because if a
person says he wants to go to Japan, that means he is a Japanese.
The other cases mean more careful check and analysis.
Mr. MuNDT. This letter is addressed from room 726, 1778 Pennsyl-
vania Avenue NW., Washington, D. C, July 6, 1943 :
Deab Congressman Mundt: Confidential, and subject to your corrections and
additions of your ideas :
I submit herewith following, roughly drawn suggestions in determining and
segregating loyal American citizens of Japanese ancestry from those who are not
likely to be loyal to our country.
Roughly, the following points have been discussed with Messrs. Larry Tijari,
editor of the Pacific Citizen, and Mike Masaoka.
We had Mike Masaoka before our committee and I feel he is a
loyal citizen of Japanese ancestry.
Mr. Myer. I believe he is.
Mr. Mundt. And I feel the same way about Mr. Slocum, due to
his remarkable record in the last war. I do not know Mr. Tajari,
but I presume if he is in the company of the other two boys, I would
so place him.
Mr. INIyer. So would I.
Mr. Mundt. Now, I would like to know, as I read this, Mr. Myer,
if you will designate in some way or other, this is now includecl in
your questionnaire which I have not seen, or the policy, why, just
say "Yes" or something of that kind, and I will read on, because the
points that are not included I would like to discuss. [Keading :]
1. Check against Federal Bureau of Investigation, Naval Intelligence, Mili-
tary Intelligence, and police records of applicants in their former place of resi-
dence.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9737
Mr. INIyer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
2. Close check and questioning into applicants' family history such as
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
such as (fl) Father or any member of the family now held by the United States
Department of Justice in any internment camps for alien enemies.
Mr. :Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(&) Brother or son in Japanese Army or Navy.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(e) Son or sons in the United States Army? What organization and where
stationed. *
Mr. jMyer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
id) Sister or daughter or any family member worked for the semiofficial or
official Japanese Government agencies, such as consulate, South-Manchurian
Railway, Tourist Bureau, Mitsui, Mitsubishi, Yokahama Specie Bank, N. Y. K.
Line.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(e) What is yoiir religion? How long have you embraced such faith?
Mr. Myer. Yes ; that item is checked.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
{f) Have you made any trip to Japan? When? With whom? Whom did you
visit and why?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
(g) If this trip was a Kengakudan (organized tour for educational aud cul-
tural purposes) who was the leader of the trip?
Mr. Myer. Of course, any trip, any type of trip to Japan will be
checked and considered as part of their relationship.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(ft ) Are you married or single?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
If married, check both family histories.
Mr. Myer. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. IVIuNDT. In parentheses they say this [reading] :
Often close Japanese relation with certain official connection is thus revealed
as in the case of Consul Tomikazu Hori's marriage to George Shima's daughter.
Hori is now the chief military spokesman for Japanese Army.
Mr. Myer. Family relations I consider important and they are
checked.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(t) Ever file expatriation paper to renounce United States citizenship? If so.
when? Where? And why?
Mr. Myer. That is right.
9738 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(j) Have you ever renounced allegiance to Japan?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(Jc) Have you ever sworn unconditional allegiance to the United States of
America?
Mr. Myer. That is right.
Mr. Mundt (reading) :
(I) Have you ever been inducted into the United States Army but have been
released? Do you know why? (This case deserves unbiased hearing. There
have been many injustices done to boys who were in the service but who were
given sort of conditional discharge. This makes them feel bitter and wonder
why.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. Mundt (reading) :
(m) What clubs and organizations do you belong to?
Mr. Myer. That is checked.
Mr. Mundt. Then they have some questions that (reading) :
When did you last attend them?
Who is the president of the organization?
What were the organizational aim and policy? Dues?
Were the meetings conducted in the Japanese language or in English?
Who were some of the guest speakers ?
You might develop a reservoir of information which might be
helpful in this screening you are going to give.
Mr. Myer. I am not sure that we will be able to go into that detail
or not, but we will check the organizational policy, and so forth.
Mr. Mundt (reading) :
(n) After the war is over, where would you like to make your home? South
Pacific Islands, where opportunities are greater?
Mr. Myer. That will be checked, not only after the war is over,
but right now.
Mr. Mundt. Here are some interesting thoughts which I think
merit serious consideration. (Reading.)
Do you think Japanese will continue to control those islands?
Would you like to continue to live in America? If so, where? Why?
Mr. Myer. I would be very glad to have that list. It will be very
helpful to us in connection with hearings, which we are setting up,
where those questions can be asked and checked.
Mr. Mundt. That is what the young fellows had in mind.
Mr. Myer. We would be delighted to have those. I think they
would be very helpful.
Mr. Mundt. You would have an equal obligation to keep some
men, as well as leave others out.
Mr. Myer. We agree.
Mr. Mundt (reading) :
(o) Who do you think started this war? Japan? United States of America?
China? England? Russia? Germany? Why?
ip) Who do you think will win this war? England? United States of Amer-
ica? Japan? China? Germany? Why?
You and I, not being members of the Japanese race, cannot, per-
haps, interpret the minds of Japanese ancestry citizens, and it might
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9739
be that such questions would lead to some interesting line of in-
formation.
Mr. I^Iyer. I repeat, we would be glad to have that.
Mr. MuxDT (reading) :
(q) Don't you think Japan was justified in striking United States of America
at Pearl Harbor?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(?•) Have you ever been intimidated or threatened by any Japanese for your
pro- American views or activities? By whom?
They suggest this, that this question should be on a separate sheet
of paper in order to obtain the names for the F. B. I. and the camp
authorities, without having them identified with these people and
subject them to possible future intimidation. Obviously, if you just
get the names of one or two, that might be a matter of personal
malice, but if the same name came up repeatedly it would open up a
valuable clue to you, I believe.
Mr. Myer. We have used that method to some degree in recent
months or so.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(s) Have you ever cooperated with the Federal Bureau of Investigation or
Navy Intelligence, or Military Intelligence? When? Where? What case?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
(t) Do you swear unqualified allegiance to the United States of America and
bear ^rms for America against Japan.
Mr. Myer. That is the No. 28 question.
Mr. MuNDT. Then they suggest the following other points:
Suggest that applicants' pre-Pearl Harbor activities and neighborhood opinions
be checked by a mixed committee made up of local :
Draft board member, American Legion, chamber of commerce, church and
school ; for business, etc., bank, and business may be added.
It seems to me that before the Peai-I Harbor activities and neighborhood
opinion of applicant is more important than post-Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Myer. In many of these cases they are. I would like to point
out, Mr. Mundt, that jis the procedure goes forward, at one end
segregation and at the other end relocation, the checks will be tougher
and tougher; in other words, each case where there is any question
at all in relation to history, will be checked thoroughly.
I pointed out yesterday that these joint board cases are being sent
back to the west coast, many of them, for investigation, where there
is any que^^tion in relation to the files they may have there, bi indi-
viduals out there, as a basis for supplying the information for our
records, so that, in general, I would say "Yes" to that, although I
will not say that it will be done in all cases.
It will be done, I think, in cases where they are border-line cases;
where they would not go this way or that way, and they would need
to be checked.
Mr. MuxDT. The letter seems to be particularly interesting in view
of the present program of checking. I just leave that for you for
consideration.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
9740 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :.
Divide the applicants into:
Loyal ;
Those whose status is not absolutely certain ;
Disloyal.
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. The next paragraph reads :
Have a hearing committee in each camp made up of such duly constituted
authorities as the committee deem fit with an advisory board made up of loyal
Americans of Japanese ancestry, say half women and half men representatives
and War Relocation Authority representatives to advise the board but not to
pass judgment upon the applicant. To sit in merely to bring up points which
the authorities do not quite understand or know. In this field, Japanese can
be helpful.
Mr. Myer. I am sure there is nor a project in existence but what
uses an advisory committee of that type to check their judgments, in
case where they have any question about it.
It is not usually announced, officially known, but it is being utilized
right along, when they can.
Mr. MuNDT. You haven't got any segregation camps, though.
Mr. Myer. Not any segregation camps except in case where we are
trying to ferret out situations in relations to Leupp or some other
center. However, we have used it in connection with relocation at
the other end of which is the best segregation program for the citizen-
ship group.
Mr. MuNDT (reading) :
Plea is made for consideration of parents of soldiers now in the service and
whose service has been satisfactory. Special questioning should be given to
those whose applications show them to have had former newspaj^er connections :
Teaching (Japanese) ;
Organizational work ;
Former employees of big Japanese importing firms.
Mr. Slocum thinks especially, and I think, there is some merit to
his position, that the young men in the service of the United States
Army are presumed to be loyal.
Even with above questionnaire being answered, references returned to War
Relocation Authority or Army or whatever body to handle this, Federal Bureau
of Investigation, Naval Intelligence, and -Military Intelligence, final recheck and
questioning should be made before releasing them.
Suggest check-up on all those who do not come under the War Relocation
Authority jurisdiction as well by the duly constituted authorities.
And when all this is done, I plea that released loyal citizens be permitted
to carry on as any good citizen should to contribute as much as possible toward
winning the war.
Respectfully submitted.
ToKiE Slocum.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like to have this incorporated as a part of the
record.
Mr. CosTELLO. Yery well.
Mr. Myer. May we have a copy of that ?
Mr. CosTELLo. Yes.
Mr. Myer. Mr. Chairman, since we are talking about leave, Mr.
Mundt raised the question yesterday, and I have checked our files
in relation to the question he was asking about as of April 7, as to
whether there M^as additional information that should be brought
up to date on leave.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9741
I have here two supplements that I think may not have been sup-
plied. I am not going to read these, except just give the title.
The first one is, •'Administrative Instruction No. 2*2, Eevised. Sup-
plement 10. Subject : Issuance of Leave or Departure from a Relo-
cation Center."
The second and last one refers to "Issuance of Leave or De]:>arture
From a Relocation Area, Investigation for Leave Clearance in Doubt-
ful Cases." Avhich is about the same thing in relation to segregation
cases, I might say.
This is Administrative Instruction No. 22, Revised, Supplement 12,
dated June 5, 1913.
I think it does bring up to date the leave policy procedure outlined
in line with the question Mr. Mundt or Mr. Matthews asked me yes-
terday about.
(Administrative Instruction No. 22, Supplements 10 and 12 are
contained in the committee file as an exhibit.)
Mr. Mundt. In question No. 27, which you now ask about the
willingness of an evacuee to take up arms of the United States, I do
not believe you ask the question, do you, as directly as Tokie Slocum
suggests when he says, "Will you fight against Japan?"
That question was not answered.
Mr. Myer. Well; no. I don't think it is asked that way in our
question. Furthermore, I might say that the question in the blank
was misconstrued by some of the evacuees who presented the ques-
tion. That was somewhat confusing.
That is wh}' we are not putting as much emphasis on 27 and 28,
for the reason that they are accepting volunteers. In some cases, it
was construed to mean immediate volunteering. In some cases, it
was generally misunderstood.
Mr. MuxDT. You feel now that that confusion has been somewhat
abated ?
Mr. Myer. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. Tokie had a good suggestion.
Mr. Myer. Yes; I think that question is all right, in connection
with any set of questions, because certainly if it is used with people
that are' likely to be pro- Japanese, that will be one question that will
be worth while asking.
One other l)it of information, Mr. Cliairman. that I overlooked a
minute ago.
Somebody raised the question about the amount or number of peo-
ple, or the percentage of people that were not emplo3'ed at the centers
who were able-bodied, I believe.
I think it may have been Mr. Eberharter, and I think I gave the
figure of 4 percent.
I want to correct that and sa}^ as of April 30, on a check we made
of G projects — we did not have all 10 in at that time — there were 6
percent that had not registered for work of able-bodied people out of
the total population.
There were 38 percent registered for work but not employed. In
other words, there was the normal you would have in most communi-
ties if they registered, and no work for them, making a .total of 9.8
percent in these centers at that time of able-bodied people that were
not emploj'ed, either because they didn't want to be or because we
626:6 43— vol. I.j 5.S
9742 UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
didn't have important work for them, and I wanted to clarify the
record to that extent, and I would like to have you have the infor-
mation.
Mr. Eberharter. Is Mr. Snelson still employed at the Colorado
Eiver relocation project ?
Mr. Myer. Indeed, I can't tell you without checking the records.
I don't keep up with the detail records, particularly Colorado River.
I can check and find out for you, Mr. Eberharter.
Mr. Eberharter. It is not so important, but I just would like to
know. I would appreciate your giving us that information.
Mr. Myer. Well, we will check it for you. Mr. Burrows thinks he
is. but we will check it and give you that information.
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Myer, of course you were not with the War
Relocation Authority when the various sites were selected for these
relocation centers, but do you happen to know what the main factor
taken into consideration was in selecting the particular sites that they
did select?
Mr. Myer. Yes; I think I can tell you the important ones. The
first one was that they be on Government land, generally speaking.
The only one that was not on Government land was the one at Man-
zanar, which had already been leased from the Army, from the city
of Los Angeles, and that was city land. That was No. 1.
No. 2. The War Department checked at each State when we located
sites in relation to factories, installations, and so on, and some sites
were eliminated because they felt they were too close to certain points,
and felt they should not be established there.
No. 3. Trying to find land, enough land at least, that could be cul-
tivated in the western area where we had water rights. That is not
always easy to find nowadays; reasonable accessibility to railroads.
Transportation is a real problem. One of the problems at Poston is
that they are a long way from the railroad.
Those were some factors.
Mr. Eberharter. Generally speaking, the sites are pretty far away
from the centers of population.
Mr. Myer. That is right. That is partly due to the fact that the
Army, in advising us with relation to these sites, asked that they
be not located too close by industrial areas.
Mr. Eberharter. Most of these sites are in areas where the poptda-
tion is scarce, mainly because of the poor climatic conditions, would
you not say that ?
Mr. Myer. Well, I suppose I had better say it in another way.
One of the major considerations which Mr. Burrows just men-
tioned to me, which I overlooked, was to try to avoid displacement of
population through condemnation of land and moving people out who
were already farming and carrying on their business and finding sites
where you could build a new development and did not displace a lot
of people. I would put it that way, rather than the other way
around.
Now, climate varies. I would say at Poston it is perhaps the hot-
test place we have, and Heart Mountain is the coldest in the winter-
time. And, of course, there are all types in between. Arkansas has
a climate similar to what we have 'here in Washington, generally
speaking, as far as humidity is concerned. All the rest of them are
UN-AMERICAN PllOPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9743
in the semiarid or arid areas, and in irrigated country; some in the
midcountry, some pretty far north, and some pretty far south.
Mr. Eberharter. I am interested to know whether or not your
staff, when they get an application from a person to take one of these
■evacuees into employment, makes any investigation or inquiry of any
sort with respect to the t3^pe of employer, or present conditions of
■employment, and so forth.
Mr. Mter. Yes; we must do that in order to provide the offer
to the evacuee. Most of these evacuees were people who were em-
ployed before they entered the centers, so we expect the employer
to submit in as much detail as possible the factors of employment ; the
place they have for the people to live and describe it in some detail;
the wages; the hours; and all the other conditions, as a basis for
the evacuees themselves making up their minds whether or not they
want to accept employment.
That is the only way we have in the majority of cases, having
them describe that and getting it across to the evacuee, except in •
a few cases where they can meet face to face and talk about it.'
Mr. Eberharter. I am interested whether or not your staff en-
deavors to find out whether the person making a request is a responsi-
ble or irresponsible individual and that the evacuee will be prac-
tically guaranteed fair treatment in every respect.
Mr. Myer. No ; I don't think we make any special investigation of
that type, except the statements of the individuals themselves as to
what they are offering in the way of wages and the conditions they
have to offer which would, I think, reflect that, generally speaking.
If we have any indication that there has been misrepresentation be-
ing made, of course they would check into it and pass it along, but I
don't think they would have time to check all of these offers.
We have a lot of offers come through these centers for many
different types, so I don't think there is that investigation made that
you talk about.
Mr. Eberharter. Then, after the evacuee takes the position, the
evacuee is practically on his own ?
Mr. Myer. That is right.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, is there sort of a tacit understanding that
the evacuee will stay in that employment which he accepted in order
to get out of the relocation center?
Mr. Myer. No. We do, Mr. Eberharter, advise evacuees not to
take employment with the idea of taking it for a short term, and
then going on to some other employment, unless they have arrange-
ments with the employer, because if they do that hurts our program.
We have had people take positions as maids, stay a week, and then
take a job as a stenographer. I use that as a hypothetical case. That
left a very disgruntled employer, and somebody was verj?^ mad at our
program.
We have made every effort we can to discourage that type of action
on the part of the evacuees and we have suggested that if they want
to move out on temporary employment until they can get acquainted
with the community, and their record is good otherwise, to make a
frank agreement with their employer and work out that kind of a
basis with the employer as I indicated in the case of the girl who was
9744 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
a newspaper girl and is now serving as a maid, until she can secure
other employment in the Chicago area.
Mr. Eberharter. Would you saj^ there were not many cases where
the evacuees stayed at their first place of employment?
Mr. Myer. I said there were not so very many cases where they
came out and stayed for a short period and went on. We have had
cases where they changed positions, quite a number of them, but we
do not assume responsibility, Mr. Eberharter, of policing these people
after they get out, as to whether they stay on this job or take another
one.
We do require, under our rules, that if they change jobs, they
notify us and give us their new address, so that we have a record of it.
There is a lag on that. It takes time to get caught up. In general,
we have quite a good deal of success in getting those records in, so we
ask for that information in every instance.
Aliens, of course, are required to do that, under the law, when they
move from one address to another.
Mr. Eberharter. It is not the usual practice but rather, the ex-
ception, that an evacuee takes advantage of an offer of an employer
and then only stays a very short time ?
Mr. Myer. That is right; it is the exception now rather than the
general practice. I would say there is less of it now than there was
in the early portion of the leave program, because we have done
everything we can to discourage that.
Mr. CosTELLO. An article appeared in the last Sunday edition of
the Poston Chronicle, urging evacuees, if they accept the job, to re-
main there and not quit.
Mr. Myer. That is right. It has been one of the problems in relo-
cation, as you no doubt realize. Some of these youngsters are not very
old. They should be out. They may be 20 or 21 years of age; have
not been away from their families before, and want to see the world,
so they will take a job and the first thing you know, you will find some
of them over here. But there have not been a large number of cases.
That is one of the headaches that we have to put up with, of course.
Mr. Eberharter. Mr. Myer, would you care to express any opinion
as to these suggestions that have been made in several quarters, that
the War Relocation Authority program be in the control of the
military ?
Mr. Myer. No; other than that opinion that I expressed this morn-
ing. My opinion is that that is a determination to be made by the
Congress of the United States, or the Executive, or jointly, and I do
not think that it is quite proper for me to make a statement on that.
I naturally have some opinion about it but I don't care to state it,
Mr. Eberharter.
Mr. Eberharter. Well, as one member of the committee, I certainly
would like to know what your opinion of that suggestion is. I think
it Would be rather helpful to the committee.
If you do not care to express any opinion, of course I think I will
request that some representative of the War Department express his
opinion either in writing or by appearance before this committee as to
that suggestion.
Mr. Myer. I think that is a perfectly good approach.
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9745
That has been done, I know, by the Military Affairs Committee,
and 1 am siu-e that the representatives of the AVar Department will
be glad to express theirs, but I don't think I should.
Mr. Ebf.rhartek. Has the War Department officially expressed its
reaction to that suggestion?
Mr. Myer. Yes; they have.
Mr. Eberhartkr. To the ]\rilitarv Affairs Committee of the House
or Senate?
Mr. Myer. Senate.
Mr. Eberharter. I think we can get that.
Mr. CosTELLO. The War Department was adverse to the suggestion.
Mr. Myer. The War Department was adverse to the suggestion
each time it has been raised.
Mr. Eberharter. There is an opinion held by many people, Mr.
Myer, that the administration in many of the relocation centers is
very weak, and that they do not take a firm stand in the control of the
Japanese with those who are troublemakers, those who advocate the
Japanese ideology, and commit various other acts which I feel you do
not approve of and I do not feel that American people would ap-
prove of.
What about that? Do you think there is laxity and Aveakness m
the control exercised by the various administrators on the staffs'
Mr. Myer. No; not generally. I would say this, Mr. Eberharter,
there have been a great many mistakes made during the last 14 months,
or during the life of the War Relocation Authority; part of them due
to normal human mistakes that anyone will make; part of them due
to inexperience; part of them due to inability to do everything at
once ; part of them due to the incompatible things that will happen in
any population at certain times and you wonder why.
I might name the zoot suit riot in Los Angeles, where they had
a disurbance, almost the same proportion we had in Manzanar,
if not more so, and the riots in Denver and other places.
We have had difficulty of that type.
I do think that there were cases of inexperience and poor manage-
ment in the early portion of this program in some of the centers. I
think, generally, that has been remedied as time has gone on, through
(1) experience and through (2) changes in personnel, where we
found people that were not particularly adapted, as has been indi-
cated in some of the cases here where we made changes.
I think today that we have as good a staff on the War Relocation
Authority as you will find in any Government agency.
I make no bones about that. I like to brag about it because I
think they are good. They are becoming A^eterans. Some of them
may be better, of course, but I Avould say, generally speaking, the
situation today is under good control. It is being handled well. I
make no apologies for them.
I won't say that all of the policies are in complete order because
there are times you change your program, and as plans develop, you
are not able to always follow through each week and do the job.
I might say we have been pretty busy for the past 6 months with
our key personnel, involving investigations, about which I make
no criticism, but it does take time of our key staff to gather the facts
and present them and to be involved in them.
9746 UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
To that extent we have not been devoting our full energies to some
of the attention of the program.
I want to repeat: We are glad to have had the opportunity to
present the facts.
On the other hand, I think at the moment — and let me repeat —
that things generally are in good order. Some of the mistakes we
made last summer and last fall will live with us forever; some of
the stories that have been played over and over half a dozen times,
including the one about the Poston incident, displayed last fall,
with lurid recitals, played again.
We expect that, when you get new lurid recitals with different
slants. 1 have no criticism of the press for playing that up, but it
does help to keep old problems in mind.
People assume, people naturally assume that that situation still
exists today that existed last November or existed last August. It
does not exist in that manner any more.
I have made the . statement to my staff a good many times that 1
month in W. R. A. is about 1 year in normal experience, in normal
times, from the standpoint of making your next move, the complexi-
ties of the problem, and everything considered.
I think we have gained a good deal of experience in the last year
or 14 months. I think things are in pretty good order. We
are glad to have anyone look into any of the centers and check them.
I don't expect everybody to agree with everything we do. Human
nature is not built that way.
We have tried to conduct an open, sound administration, which
anybody can look at. I take a great deal of pride in the fact that I
think our house is in good order.
And, Mr. Chairman, I think that we are running a pretty good
program. I don't want to be egotistical about it, but
Mr. Eberharter (interposing). Do you agree with the opinion of
many people that the Japanese psychology is different from the
American psychology, in that the Japanese really like to have imposed
on them a rather rigid control and discipline?
Mr, Mtfr. Well, of course, Japanese psychology as a]")plied to relo-
cation centers varies with your three generations and with the situa-
tion, depending on what the experiences of the individuals are.
I would like to point out again that 72 percent of the American citi-
zens who have been in these centers, or thereabouts, have never seen
Japan. They are brought up and educated in our American schools,
whi,ch I think is a pretty good Americanization process. Their psy-
chology, generally speaking, is American.
Sure, they have been subjected to some Japanese psychology, so that
talking about one group of these people as compared with the aliens
who were born and reared in Japan is another thing.
Yes ; I would say yes ; but I don't think it is limited to the Japanese.
I think anybody respects a hard, firm, honest administration.
It does not need to be unkindly, but it does need to be honest and
firm and definite. That is the kind of administration we have tried
to run. We haven't always had it. I think we are getting it, how-
ever, and I agree that they like that, but I don't think it is limited to
the Japanese. i
UN-AMERICAK PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9747
I think other people in the same boat would like the same kind of
administration.
Air. Eberharter. Do you not think that the Japanese really like it
better than the American people; a little bit?
Mr. Myer. Yes; I suppose that is true, if you were speaking strictly
of Japanese.
Mr. Ebkrharit.r. Then, would you say that your control over the
activities of the population in the relocation centers was more firm now
than it was a year ago, or 6 months ago?
Mr. Myer. There isn't any question about that, in either case — a
year ago or 6 months ago; more definite and more firm. We have
established our policy which operates to strengthen the administration
all along the line, and we have eliminated people in many cases who
could not live with this policy, and did not like it.
Now, they are not as tough' as some people would like to see them,
and they are tougher than other people would like to see them. But
it is the policy of this organization to conduct a firm, honest, and sound
administration.
We have certain responsibilities within the War Relocation Author-
ity, and we are trying to provide a certain resiDonsibility for the
evacuees themselves.
I hajipen to be one of these people that believe you cannot govern
any people without the consent of the governed over a very long^
period, so that I do think that these people should be consulted on
some way or other in relation to their problems and their programs.
Mr. Eberharter. You think one of the weaknesses of the War
Relocation Authority in the early days was that they did not have
this firm control or authority which they are exercising now?
Mr. Myer. In some of the centers; yes. Not in all of them. In
some of them we have had it consistently throughout, but in some we
haven't.
Mr. Eberharter. In some of the centers the block managers, so-
called, are almost exclusively Kibei, or Issei, according to some testi-
mony^ that has been given to this committee.
iMr. Myer. Yes. The block managers, in that sense, of course, are
appointed personnel, who are carrying out certain duties in relation
to maintenaince ; I mean, the facilities within the center, the mainte-
nance of buildings, or maintenance of the service centers, and so on.
They are on the pay roll and carrying out their duties, and if they
are not carrying out their duties they are changed by the administra-
tion, as anybody else would be.
It is true in some cases most of them are Issei.
Mr. Eberharter. Are not some of these block managers elected by
the residsnts?
Mr. ]\Iyer. Not the block managers; no. Not in any case that I
know of.
There is. as differentiated from the block managers, a community
council elected, but those are not the block managers.
Mr. Eberharter. In those cases of the council, they are always
elected by the residents in the particular block?
Mr. Myer. B}'^ the residents of the particular block, or in some par-
ticular centers they have established wards, and maybe four blocks
to a ward, or something like that.
9748 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Mr. Eberharter. Are, in most instances, these community council
Issei or Kibei ?
Mr. Myer. Up until about 60 days ago they were required to be
Nisei and citizens of the United States under our rulings.
We have changed that policy recently^ basically for the reason I
gave awhile ago. There are very few, in some of these centers, ma-
ture citizens left to serve on those councils, so we have made provision
whereby Issei can be elected to the council now as well as Nisei. I
have forgotten the exact date, but we have done it only within the
last 60 or 90 days.
Since last August citizens had to hold office; in fact, it was one of
our troubles that led to conflict. We had many inexperienced people
trying to represent the evacuees in the centers, and some of the older
people resented it, and we finally came to the conclusion that it was
true, in addition to the fact that we did not have the proper number
of mature United States citizens to fill the offices.
If we had had a population where we had had a large number of
the middle-aged group, second generation, or citizens of the United
States, I think we would have had a different problem, but it did
cause one of our difficulties because we maintained that policy.
We thought it was a sound policy, and we stayed with it for a long
time.
Mr. Eberharter. A cooperative had been in existence at the Colo-
rado relocation center.
Is that operating now ?
Mr. Myer. How is that?
Mr. Eberharter. Or is the cooperative at Poston operating now ?
Mr. Myer. As far as I know, it is. I have not checked the Poston
situation recently, but I understand that it is operating. It is operat-
ing at Gila, I know, and at Manzanar. I could check all of those
for you.
Mr. Eberharter. I am particularly interested in the center in Ari-
zona— the camps in the centers in Arizona, the one at Gila and the
one at Parker. Do you know about those ?
Mr. Myer. Yes; they are both operating Cooperatives at the Centers
at the present time.
The one at Poston operated on a different basis for a time but I
think they have recently switched over to the straight cooperative
procedure. They are simply in the process now of switching over from
the so-called Rosedale approach, in connection with community en-
terprises, to the cooperative process.
Mr. Eberharter. What effect will this denial of the Public Utility
Commission of Arizona to license them to operate have?
Mr. Myer. Well, I hope it will have no effect, because I think the
licenses will be granted ultimately.
They have been operating, as you see, and are still operating under
a trust agreement, which is not strictly a cooperative agreement, but
they do want to switch over to the cooperative basis, and I hope we
can get an agreement to do that.
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes at this
time.
(Brief recess taken.)
Mr. Costello. The committee will be in order.
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9749
Mr. ]VrYER. INIr. Chairman, I have a half page statement I would
like to supply for the record, and then I have a more detailed statement
I would Jike to supply for the record, but I would like to read the one-
page statement if you don't mind. It was referred to when I talked to
Mr. Mundt this morning.
It was in regard to the Americanization situation, this program, that
I think ought to go into the record.
I do not want to go into it in detail, but if anybody is interested
in a longer statement, I will give it.
In view of the fact that tlie Japanese side of Japanese-American
life has been so strongly emphasized during recent weeks, I believe
that, in the interest of fairness and accuracy, some attention should
be drawn to evidence of Americanism among the Japanese-American
people.
Of the 110,000 people of Japanese descent who were evacuated last*
year from the Pacific coast military area, approximately 70,000 were
born in the United States and are American citizens. Roughly, 72
percent of this group have never seen Japan. They have attended
American schools, public schools, and have been subjected to all the
other Americanizing influence that operate constantly in any Ameri-
can community.
More than 8,000 American citizens of Japanese ancestry — approxi-
mately half of them volunteers — are now serving in the United States
Army. Some are in service overseas and three have already been
cited for bravery in action. One is serving as a turret gunner in Lib-
erators engaged in bombing operations over the continent of Europe.
Over 1,200 of these soldiers volnnteered for service from behind
the wire enclosures of relocation centers. As a result, the centers today
contain large numbers of service flags and other evidences of ties
with the Army. ' Men in uniform are frequent visitors at the centers
and arrangements for entertaining them are part of the regular com-
munity activities program.
At one of these centers last month an official U. S. O. has been
established, and I think they will be -established elsewhere.
There are manj' other evidences of Americanism among these peo-
ple both in the relocation centers and in normal communities through-
out the country.
At all centers, training in American ideals and American institu-
tions is part of the regular school program just as it is in public
schools outside. Formal flag-raising and the pledge of allegiance
are a regular ceremony in most of the center schools.
Practically' all national organizations for young people, such as
Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, 4-H Clubs, Y. M. C. A., Y. W. C. A., and
Junior Red Cross, have active programs at the centers, and many
thousands of members. Boy Scouts alone number several thousand.
I do not have the exact figures now and if the committee is inter-
ested, I will get that figure later.
I will close with this remark: Outside the relocation centers, the
thousands of Japanese Americans, including both those who have
left the centers on leave and those who were never evacuated, are dis-
playing their patriotism in the same ways as other civilian Americans.
They are buying war bonds and stamps, donating money and blood
to the Red Cross, and participating in salvage campaigns.
9750 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
Several hundred are serving effectively in the Intelligence Branch
of the United States Army. Others are serving as language in-
structors, helping to train intelligence officers for the Army and
Navy.
Still others are working as translators with the Overseas Branch
of the Office of War Information. ■ Many are employed as carpenters,
machinists, welders, and in other jobs essential to war production.
I will supply for the record, Mr. Chairman, if you don't mind,
about a 7-page statement giving the details of this organization, a
summary statement.
("Evidences of Americanism Among Japanese Americans" fol-
lows:)
Evidences of Americanism Among Japanese-Ameeicans
(Statement submitted to the Committee on Un-American Activities by Dillon
S. Myer, Director of the War Relocation Authority)
The War Relocation Authority realizes that the Committee on Un-American
Activities is primarily interested in evidences of un-Americanism. Statements
appearing in the press recently and attributed to members or representatives of
the committee have served to point up the essentially Japanese sympathies of
many people now in relocation centers. The Japanese side of Japanese-American
life "has been brought to the attention of the American people abundantly and
in detail.
But there is another side to Japanese-American life — the side represented by
the word lying to the right of the hyphen. And even though it is not the
fundamental business of the committee to investigate such matters, we believe
that the committee — in the interest of presenting a fully rounded picture —
may wish to incorporate some evidences of Americanism among Japanese-
Americans into the record of its investigations. This statement has been pre-
pared to supply the committee with such evidence.
BACKGROUND
Approximately two-thirds of the persons of Japanese extraction now in the
United States were born on American soil and are, by virtue of that fact,
American citizens under the Constitution. And their citizenship is by no means
a mere constitutional technicality. An examination of the forces that have
operated to mold their personalities from birth through adolescence serves to
illustrate the essential human wisdom of the constitutional provision which
makes them citizens.
Approximately 72 percent of the American citizens in relocation centers
have never even seen Japan. These second-generation Americans have spent
all their formative years in the United States. They have been educated —
along with children of English, German, Irish, Italian, and almost every other
extraction — in American public schools. They have played the typical American
childhood games with children of other immigrants and children whose an-
<;estors have been in this country for generations. They have been weaned on
our comic strips, our movies, and our breakfast-food radio programs. They
have joined organizations like the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the Young Men's
Christian Association, the Young Women's Christian Association, and the Camp-
fire Girls.
To deny the influence of these forces which have been brought to bear on
the minds of Japanese-Americans almost since birth is to imply that American
institutions have no real strength or cogency and are less potent than the
transplanted institutions of the Orient. This is an implication which the War
Relocation Authority ardently rejects. We believe that American institutions
are strong, that their strength is abundantly illustrated by the whole "melting
pot" history of our Nation, and that they will inevitably influence— to a greater
or less degree — any personality exposed to them during the formative years of
youth. The fact is that most of the second-generation Japanese are, in the
words of one writer, "almost painfully American." The typical Nisei — or Amer-
ican of Japanese descent — uses the breeziest American slang, wear^ the latest-
UK-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9751
style American clothes, and indulges in nearly all the pastimes that are pecu-
liarly associated with this country. As one naval intelligence officer who has
studied the Nisei over a period of years points out, these youngsters have
absorhed Americanism as naturally as the air they breathe.
AMEEICANISM WITHIN THE BELOC^ON CENTERS
The influences that make for Americanization are still operating on the minds
and hearts of the Japanese-Americans, both in the relocation centers and in
normal communities throughout the country. While these forces are inevitably
less potent within the confines of the centers than on the outside, the War
Relocation Authority is making positive efforts to continue the Americanization
process among the evacuees. Striking evidences of Americanism have been
appearing at the centers almost constantly since the arrival of the tirst evacuee
contingents. A few facts gathered from the centers will serve to illustrate
the point.
1. Although schools at relocation centers have been held in barracks classrooms,
the course of study at all centei's has emphasized American ideals and insti-
tutions. Both in the classroom and in extra-curricular activities, the children
of school age at the centers are being constantly exposed to the same training
for responsible citizenship that is provided in public schools throughout the
country- Formal flag raising and the pledge of allegiance are part of the daily
school program at most relocation centers.
2. Adult education courses for the residents beyond school age are being given
at all the centers. According to the latest report, approximately 25 percent of
the adult population at the centers is now enrolled in these classes. Two of the
most popular subjects are English and American history.
3. Practically all important national organizations for young people — Boy
Scouts, Girl Scouts, Campfire Girls, Young Men's Christian Association, Young
Women's Christian Association, and Junior Red Cross — have units at the relo-
cation centers. Boy Scouts alone number several thousands. National repre-
sentatives of these organizations who have visited the centers have been highly
impressed with the programs being carried on.
4. Like ordinary communities, the relocation centers are decorated these days
■with many service flags, and men in uniform returning to see their relatives ai*e
among the most frequent visitors. At most centers, servicemen's headquarters
have been established for the entertainment of visiting soldiers.
5. A substantial majority of the American citizens of Japanese descent at
relocation centers are Christians and practice their religious beliefs with the
same freedom that prevails throughout the United States. Many national church
organizations have taken a keen interest in the religious activities at the centers
and have sent in representatives to help in the formulation of community re-
ligious programs.
6. In line with the best traditions of democracy, evacuees have established
community governments at nearly all relocation centers. Typically, these gov-
ernmental organizations consist of an elected community council or ordinance-
making body, a judicial commission which functions after the manner of a
<'riminnl court, and an arbitration commission for the settlement of civil disputes.
Through the operation of these governments, many evacuees have had an oppor-
tunity to gain first-hand experience with democracy in action.
7. Although most evacuees at the centers are earning only $16 a month, they
Lave already made significant financial contributions to the war effort. At
Minirloka Center in Idaho, for example, the residents dug into their meager
resources and donated more than .$2..">00 to the Red Cross emergency war fund
drive. Comparable showings were made at the other centers.
8. On the production front, citizen evacuees at the centers, have contributed
manufactured articles to both the Army and the Navy. At the two centers
in Arizona, approximately 1,000 evacuees garnished approximately 150,000,005
square feet of camouflage nets over a 5-month period ending in May. At other
centers, shops are being operated to turn out ship models and silk-screen posters
for instruction work in the Navy.
AMERICANISM OUTSIDE THE CENTERS
As this is written, more than one-fourth of all people of Japanese descent in
the United States are living outside relocation centers. Nearly 17,000 were
living outside the west coast military area at the time of evacuation and never
9752 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
have been moved from their homes. Another 5,000 or so left the western military-
zone before the "freeze" order of March 29. 1942. and thus were never confined
in Government centers. And nearlj 14.000 who have been through the evacuation
experience have now left the relocation centei-s under the leave procedures of
the War Relocation Authoritj^
These people live in normal communities and enjoy the same rights and privi-
leges as other Americans. They are subject to the Americanizing influences
that operate with full effectiveness only in such an environment and that never
can be completely effective in the abnormal environment of relocation centers.
Over the past year or more they have produced striking evidence of their essen-
tial Americanism and their devotion to the principles for which this country is
fighting.
1. Some 8.000 American citizens of Japanese extraction are now serving in the
United States Army. Approximately half of them are volunteers, and nearly
1,200 offered their services from behind the wire enclosures of relocation cen-
ters. One of the best-knovrn Japanese-American units in the Army is the One
hundredth Infantry Battalion, formerly stationed at Camp McCoy, Wis. This
outfit, composed mainly of National Guardmen fi-om tlie Hawaiian Islands, has
achieved an excellent record both under fire at the time of Pearl Harbor and in
training on the mainland. \A'hiIe the l)attalion was stationed at Camp McCoy
the commanding officer, Lt. Col. Farrant L. Turner, paid the following tribute
to his men in a report to headquarters : "I have ne^ er had more wholehearted,
serious-minded cooperation from any troops than I receive from my present
command."
The member of this organization, together with the 1,200 volunteers from
relocation centers and several thousand from Hawaii, are»no\A- in training as a
special comI)at team at Camp Shelby, Miss.
2. In addition to the Japanese-American soldiers in training at Camp Shelby,
a number are serving with the United States Army overseas. ' Some are serving'
in the intelligence ])ranch performing services involving a knowledge of the
Japanese language. Three have already been cited for bravery in action, and
one is serving as a turret gunner on a Liberator bomber engaged in operations
over the continent of Europe.
3. Several hundred Japanese-Americans — most of them froTu relocation cen-
ters—are now serving as instructors in the Japanese language at schools main-
tained by. the Army and Navy intelligence services. Hand picked by officers
from both services who visited the relocation centers, these instructoi-s are main-
taining a rigorous schedule of teaching to prepare scores of intelligence officers
for active service in the Pacific theater. Commenting on the efforts of the
Japanese-American instructors at one of the schools, the naval officer in chargp
stated, "No greater work could be done by any individual citizen than is being
done by the members in our Japanese language school faculty to bring an eai-ly
victory to the American people."
4. During the summer and fall of 1942, nearly 10,000 evacuees of Japanese
descent were released from assembly and relocation centers to work in the sugar-
beet fields of the West. Altogether they have harvested enough beets to pro-
duce a year's sugar ration for approximately 10.000,000 people.
5. Evacuees who have left the relocation centers on indefinite leave are con-
tributing to the war effort in many ways. They are working as welders, ma-
chinists, carpenters, farmers, doctors, nurses, and in a variety of other capacities
that are esiiecially vital during the wartime period.
7. Several American citizens of Japanese ancestry with ability in both lan-
guages are working with the Overseas Branch of the Office of War Information
in translation work and in the preparation of material for broadcasts beamed to
Japan. Some have actually participated in these broadcasts, speaking on Amer-
ican war aims to the people under the yoke of the Japanese military caste.
AMERICANIZATION IN HAWAII
In the Hawaiian Islands, there are nearly 160,000 ijeople of Japanese descent
representing approximately one-third of the total population. Although Hawaii
lies much closer to the theater of operations than the west coast, these people
have never undergone mass evacua4:ion or mass detention in Government cen-
ters. They have been subject to the same military restrictions as all other
residents of the Territory — no more and no less. And they have achieved an
excellent record of participation in the war effort.
Rumors of sabotage committed by these people at the time of the Pearl
Harbor attack have been categorically denied by every responsible official who
UN-AMERICAX PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9753
has had oocasiion to oonmieiit on the matter — by the Hoiiohilu chief of police,
the president of the Honohiln Chamber of Commerce, the Secretary of War,
the Sei-retary of tlie Navy, and the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investiga-
tion. Tlie loyalty of the Japanese-Americans in Hawaii, on the other hand,
lias received hiuh praise from a man in an excellent position to know the facts —
Col. Kendall J*. Fielder, ciiiof of military intellisonce in the Honolulu sector.
Speaking before a forum at the University of Hawaii in March of this year,
Colonel Fielder had this to say :
"Without revealing secret military information, I can say truthfully that mem-
bers of the Japanese race have themselves constituted our chief liaison with the
Japanese community and our most reliable check on its morale, its needs, and its
activities.
"How differently a Hinnnler or a Ro.senberg would have handled this delicate
situation. Does anyone believe for a moment that any of the Axis crowd would
give one of enemy race a fair chance to prove himself? Yet that's what was done
in Hawaii — and so far it has proved militarily sound. That the situation is
working out well is a tribute not only to wise administration, but to tolerance
on the liJirt of the rest of our uood Americans here. We have lived up to President
Roosevelt's description of democratic peoples as meen of good will.
"It would' take much too long to tell you of the many concrete ways in which
many of these lieople who were put on the spot have proved their love for America
and have helped solve an otherwise ticklish military problem here. For the in-
formation of all who might be misled there is none among us who has been led
into this policy out of a mawkish sentimentality or gullibility. To us Japan and
her people are a race of- stubborn, hardy, despicable warrior zealots, who would
stop at nothing to snuff out our lives and our way of life. Her army and naVy
must definitely be crushed. The question of Americans of Japanese blood is
far different. They are American.s — and until they prove (or show themselves
dangerously capable of proving) — traitorous, they should be treated as Ameri-
cans."
The War Relocation Authority subscribes wholeheartedly to the position taken
by Colonel Fielder, particularly as stated in the final paragraph. We believe the
United States is fighting for principles of democracy which include rights of
citizenship regardless of racial ancestry. We believe the future of the i^eople of
Japanese ancestry evacuated from the west coast is a matter of concern not to
the War Relocation Authority alone, but to the Nation as a whole. And we be-
lieve, finally, that this problem should be handled not as Hitler or Tojo would
handle it, but in the American way.
Mr. CosTELLO. I appreciate having that because of the question of
Americanization in the centers having been raised. People have been
very much concerned about the fact that there was not any great
evidence of too much effort being attempted toward that particular
end.
They felt that a splendid opportunity for Americanization among
the interned Japanese might be afforded by the Government now bet-
ter than any time in the future, and it would be a shame not to allow
that opportunity to be used.
Mr. Myer. I would like to say that it is difficult to maintain and
carry on an Americanization program where the population is all
of one racial group, with the cultural background of the older people,
and with the complications which go on, which makes it more difficult
than under normal conditions. That is one reason we pushed the
program so hard in getting the yoinig ]K^o{)le out.
I think we liave made a good showing in getting those that were old
enough to be on their own to move out into communities. I hope we
can get a much larger number out in the next 2 or 3 months, which is
the most positive type; those that are leading in the right direction.
Unfortunately, many of the citizen group are too young to launch
out on their own: probably 35.000 of them under 18 or 20 years of
age, attached to families, and that does create a problem, I think, with
the segregation program now carried out in connection with our
9754 UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES
relocation, bu-t I think we can make much progress with them in the
different centers.
Mr. CosTELLo. You stated you would not have that list of names
ready before Monday ?
Mr. Myer. I am afraid not. I haven't had a chance to check with
my office. It takes quite a while to check the list, because some of the
names are close cases; because, I mean the first names are misspelled,,
and you have to check-and recheck.
Mr. CosTELLO. I would appreciate, as soon as the list is ready, if
you would send it down to the committee.
Mr. Myer. I will do that.
Mr. MuNDT. One of the things, Mr. Myer, that disturbed me per-
sonally in visiting Poston was the manner in which I felt the Japanese
families were being inadequately housed in the centers.
^ We went through several of the barracks that house as many as
eight or nine people, living in a comparatively small room, without
adequate partitioning, and so forth, and I am very much in the hope
that as you get this segregation program under way, you will make
available to the Japanese more livable quarters in which they can
have decent family privacy, compatible with American standards,
which I feel would also help in this Americanization program, which
we all hope to see accelerated in these camps.
I wonder if you have been moved at all in the direction of providing
better living quarters in these centers.
Mr. Myer. First, I want to say, Mr. Chairman, you do not hope that
more than I do.
There was a commitment made a year ago that partitioning mate-
rials would be provided so that they could construct their own par-
titions. None of us anticipated at that time the difficult problems we
were going to have in securing materials of any type, by August. It
came to the point that priorities that we had then were worth prac-
tically nothing. We had a very difficult time getting the priorities,
to begin with, and then we secured materials to provide school facili-
ties that they were more interested in than housing.
So it is true that they do not have adequate facilities.
Unit I at Poston is more crowded than the other because that is
the first center filled. They were packed in, and it has been difficult
to get people, unless they are institutionalized, to move over to the
other centers. They are more crowded in Poston I than they need
to be, in many pases. That is, I think, a human characteristic.
If we find the materials to supply the partitioning, as time goes on,
I hope we can do so. It was stated as a policy, and it has been
provided in some cases.
I would say Tule Lake was probably the best-housed group as far
as that goes, because it was one of the older centers. Tliey got in a
little earlier on getting some of the material in, and it made a little
better housing.
Manzanar and Poston are two of the worst, from the standpoint
of crowding.
I appreciate your statement and I am very strong with your
point of view.
Mr. MuNDT. You would consider Poston, however, a relatively
well-run camp, would you not, from the standpoint of housing?
UN-AMERICAN PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES 9755
Mr. Myer. I am speaking now about the type of barracks.
The fact that it was crowded, we did not get the materials there
for the partitioning that you are talking about that we did at Tule
Lake or some of the other centers.
Mr. CosTELLO. Do you not think that the facts we developed at
one center applied pretty much to the other centers; that the general
set of facts would apply pretty well to all the centers?
Mr. Myer. I think that is true, with this exception, Mr. Costello,
that an}' one of the four oldest centers have had more problems,
more bad history in the nature of things, I think, not because they
have been in all cases badly run, but because they were the guinea
l)igs. They had to go through the first experience which led the basis
for some of the policies that were developed last August. Tule Lake,
Manzanar, Poston, and particularly Gila, were the earliest centers
that received the evacuees.
Poston and Tule Lake both began to receive theirs in the latter
part of May. It ran on through the summer. And, as I say, it was
mid-August or the first of September before we began to get our
policy system in order that gave these people guidance.
They made mistakes, and in making mistakes, ^liey indicated where
we needed to have certain policies tightened up, and as the result of
the inadequacy at some of those centers, it caused the difficulties
which were referred to here today, in many of those older centers,
that we did not have at some of the later centers after we gained
more experience.
In that connection there was not quite the same history, but I
want to repeat, in most cases, it is not because of difference in ad-
ministrative ability; it is because of the difference in experience, and
they supplied the experience as the basic background for some of the
other centers.
Mr. CosTELLO. i want to announce for the benefit of the press that
the committee will not meet tomorrow.
Of course, Mr. Myer, you might hold yourself available and we
will notify you should we desire to have additional hearings on
Fi'iday. We will call you in the event we do.
We thank you for having appeared here today and the testimony
you have given to us.
]\Ir. lyiYER. I appreciate the fair opportunity you have given me
in allowing me to make a statement here, and I want to say further-
metre, if we are not able to convene again Friday, and have the
time to do so, I would like the oj^portunity to present for tlie record
a rather sunnnary statement of the W. R. A. policies, in relation to
tliose matters that have not been covered; policies in relation to
relocation centers and so on, so that it will help to complete the
vecord in that respect; in other words, I would like to supply addi-
tional material.
]Mr. CosTELLo. You may supply that to either counsel or the com-
mittee.
yir. Myer. Thank you.
Mr. CosTELLO. Then the hearing will stand adjourned.
(Whereupon, at C p. m., the liearing adjourned.)
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